Warning: new stricter banning threshold on DDO forum

[Angelus_dead]

I haven't seen any Announcement (http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2) to this effect, so here's a little warning of potential interest to long-term users of this forum.

This month (Aug 2010) the moderators have added a new criteria (http://www.ddo.com/community/1059-ddo-community-guidelines#infractions) to ban forum accounts. Customers will now be permanently banned for having 10 infractions over the lifetime of the account, regardless of whether they have expired. Unlike bans for accumulating infraction points, there is no temporary warning ban first. This is also an automated ban, so the moderator who assigned the final infraction might not know he was banning anyone.

Obviously some long-time forum users might be concerned if they had some infractions years ago that have been long forgotten.

The text of the new rule is below:

Infraction points are both permanent and cumulative, although many infractions will automatically expire from “Active” status. The number of infraction points issued may vary according to the severity of the incident.

Temporary and permanent bans will be automatically issued by the Infraction system when your account reaches the following thresholds:
10 Active points: 1 day
15 Active points: 3 days
20 Active points: Permanent
A total of 2 infractions* (Free accounts): Permanent
A total of 10 infractions* (Premium or VIP accounts): Permanent
The Community Team reserves the right to assign temporary and permanent bans at will based upon the severity of an infraction.

* Automatic bans based on the number of infractions take all infractions into account, regardless of their Active or Expired status. If an account was above the limit when this change was implemented (August 2010) it will be banned if any further infractions are issued against it.

[Hollowgolem]

What I find most hysterical about that is that F2P folks are second-class forum-dwellers, too.

Does this mean I can get them to wash my car and otherwise haze the kiddos?

[Lithic]

What I find most hysterical about that is that F2P folks are second-class forum-dwellers, too.

Does this mean I can get them to wash my car and otherwise haze the kiddos?

The only second class forumites are the ones who have never paid a dime for the game in any way shape or form. Since free accounts are likely to be used as throwaway troll accounts, it makes a heck of a lot of sense. Personally I would have made it one strike you're banned for free accounts. Note that premium accounts are treated exactly the same as VIP, which is as it should be.

[Hollowgolem]

The only second class forumites are the ones who have never paid a dime for the game in any way shape or form. Since free accounts are likely to be used as throwaway troll accounts, it makes a heck of a lot of sense. Personally I would have made it one strike you're banned for free accounts. Note that premium accounts are treated exactly the same as VIP, which is as it should be.

I'm just having a bit of gentle ribbing at the expense of our F2P folks. It's all in good fun.

I understand why it's the way it is, don't worry.

[jdawg70]

How do you know if you have had infraction points?

[Sirea]

What? So why have the old thresholds still up there? Why have infraction points expire at all if they still count against us?

[Junts]

all infractions, their point value and their time of expiration are shown on the user cp, even expired ones.

[PopeJual]

How do you know if you have had infraction points?

The moderator who gave you infraction points would have sent you a private message and you'll also see them in the Infractions section of your User CP (the User CP button is in the top center of every forum webpage that you see).

I'm not thrilled with the idea of infractions-never-go-away. Someone who says something inappropriate twice a year for 5 years shouldn't be treated the same way as someone who says something inappropriate twice a week for 5 weeks.

[Bloodhaven]

The accumulation over the life of the account sounds like a bad idea to me.

The infractions should expire after 2 years or more.

[Hokiewa]

The accumulation over the life of the account sounds like a bad idea to me.

The infractions should expire after 2 years or more.

Lol, KK's (or his other ingame GM name.....) infractions never expire

[DelScorcho]

You don't necessarily get a PM from a mod when you get infraction points, but you can see all infraction points in your userCP. I don't really like this change, and it seems like retroactive punishment ...

[Visty]

all infractions, their point value and their time of expiration are shown on the user cp, even expired ones.

not after a certain amount, its the same as with rep: if you get too many, they drop off the list

but id say dont worry too much about that

[Visty]

You don't necessarily get a PM from a mod when you get infraction points, but you can see all infraction points in your userCP. I don't really like this change, and it seems like retroactive punishment ...
you always get a PM if you get an infraction

[phalaeo]

(Not that I'm being asked, but...) I would actually fine with this if there was some consistency with how the forums are moderated. Unfortunately, I feel a bit muted- I don't feel like I can qualify this opinion, because I don't want to get an infraction for discussing specific topics or individual moderation decisions.

[Xatasha]

Its going to be punishing to long time posters. Odds are that you will at some point say something that is questionable in nature and get yourself a point....since we are not all robotic English majors who can post perfectly and without showing any emotion what so ever.

On a side note......Is anyone running a fan forum site?

[Visty]

On a side note......Is anyone running a fan forum site?

you can PM strakeln for an alternate forum

[Xatasha]

This doesn't make sense to me. How can you get 10 active points for a one day ban and not get a total of 10 infractions for a permanent ban?

Infraction points are both permanent and cumulative, although many infractions will automatically expire from “Active” status. The number of infraction points issued may vary according to the severity of the incident.

Temporary and permanent bans will be automatically issued by the Infraction system when your account reaches the following thresholds:
10 Active points: 1 day
15 Active points: 3 days
20 Active points: Permanent
A total of 2 infractions* (Free accounts): Permanent
A total of 10 infractions* (Premium or VIP accounts): Permanent
The Community Team reserves the right to assign temporary and permanent bans at will based upon the severity of an infraction.

* Automatic bans based on the number of infractions take all infractions into account, regardless of their Active or Expired status. If an account was above the limit when this change was implemented (August 2010) it will be banned if any further infractions are issued against it.

[Junts]

This doesn't make sense to me. How can you get 10 active points for a one day ban and not get a total of 10 infractions for a permanent ban?

Infraction points are both permanent and cumulative, although many infractions will automatically expire from “Active” status. The number of infraction points issued may vary according to the severity of the incident.

Temporary and permanent bans will be automatically issued by the Infraction system when your account reaches the following thresholds:
10 Active points: 1 day
15 Active points: 3 days
20 Active points: Permanent
A total of 2 infractions* (Free accounts): Permanent
A total of 10 infractions* (Premium or VIP accounts): Permanent
The Community Team reserves the right to assign temporary and permanent bans at will based upon the severity of an infraction.

* Automatic bans based on the number of infractions take all infractions into account, regardless of their Active or Expired status. If an account was above the limit when this change was implemented (August 2010) it will be banned if any further infractions are issued against it.

Some infractions are worth more than a single infraction point.

[bandyman1]

Meh...

So, they want a forum full of " yes " men. It's cool.

All I'd say that this will accomplish is to make the alternate forums more popular than they already are.

When we get to the point that new/casual players are posting here complaining about the fact that;

A) They can't get correct/knowledgable anwsers to their querys because the old guard/knowledgable player-base no longer posts here

&

B) The compendium is full of incorrect information

Then they'll post a sticky wondering why we aren't, and/or encouraging everyone to please, help the new/casual players.

[MrWizard]

might have to start our own forums...simply to easy to get an infraction....

[Mirta]

Wondering how this will affect somebody who already has 11 infractions. Theoretically speaking, of course. :o

[Visty]

Wondering how this will affect somebody who already has 11 infractions. Theoretically speaking, of course. :o

you will get a ban once you get your next, says so in the text

"If an account was above the limit when this change was implemented (August 2010) it will be banned if any further infractions are issued against it."

[rest]

all infractions, their point value and their time of expiration are shown on the user cp, even expired ones.

Up to 5. The user CP only shows your 5 most recent infractions. I also don't know if warnings count towards the total.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

So someone who gets 10 infractions in 4+ years, 9 of which could have been 3 years ago under another moderator, all within a week of each other, deserves the same ban as someone who is brand new and gets 10 infractions on day 1.

Got it. Makes perfect sense.

Seriously Turbine, what's the thinking here? Lifetime limits punish long term players. That's why the original life time points counts were replaced with expiring points - remember doing that and saying you were making the change to be more fair?

Also changing the rules without letting people know is rather cold and inappropriate.

[PopeJual]

(Not that I'm being asked, but...) I would actually fine with this if there was some consistency with how the forums are moderated. Unfortunately, I feel a bit muted- I don't feel like I can qualify this opinion, because I don't want to get an infraction for discussing specific topics or individual moderation decisions.

On a related note, who can we PM about infractions that we don't feel were deserved? Is there a process for this?

[jjflanigan]

You don't get infractions for questioning turbine...you get infractions for being rude, jerkish, etc, so this has nothing to do with requiring you to be a "yes man"


That having been said I think it defeats the purpose of them changing it so infractions fall off if they are now going to be permanent again.

[rest]

Whoever gave you the infraction, I assume. I don't know if there is a chain of command for the forum moderation. Maybe Patience, since she is "Senior Community Whatever".

[Hokiewa]

So someone who gets 10 infractions in 4+ years, 9 of which could have been 3 years ago under another moderator, all within a week of each other, deserves the same ban as someone who is brand new and gets 10 infractions on day 1.

Got it. Makes perfect sense.

Seriously Turbine, what's the thinking here? Lifetime limits punish long term players. That's why the original life time points counts were replaced with expiring points - remember doing that and saying you were making the change to be more fair?

Also changing the rules without letting people know is rather cold and inappropriate.

Apparently that's the case, though I'm not surprised considering the wave of forum bannings that have occured recently

[bandyman1]

You don't get infractions for questioning turbine.

There are a LOT of us here who'll beg to differ with that...

[jjflanigan]

There are a LOT of us here who'll beg to differ with that...

*shrug* since you aren't allowed to discuss them, sadly we can't debate it. But I've never known any of my friends to get an infraction just for disagreeing with a Turbine stance except for when they were being extremely inflammatory in doing so. I can only speak for my friends and myself though.

[Mirta]

You don't get infractions for questioning turbine...

Would love to prove you wrong here using dozens of recent examples, but that would be violating the rules.

[bandyman1]

*shrug* since you aren't allowed to discuss them, sadly we can't debate it. But I've never known any of my friends to get an infraction just for disagreeing with a Turbine stance except for when they were being extremely inflammatory in doing so. I can only speak for my friends and myself though.

True that.

Trust me bro, I've seen a multitude of infractions that were completely uncontestable.

But then I'm seen several that were completely undeserved. KK was known to get fed up, and simply infract everyone who posted in a thread he nuked, without reading individual posts, ect.

Wasn't such an issue before, but now that infracs are going to be held against peeps forever...

[Visty]

*shrug* since you aren't allowed to discuss them, sadly we can't debate it. But I've never known any of my friends to get an infraction just for disagreeing with a Turbine stance except for when they were being extremely inflammatory in doing so. I can only speak for my friends and myself though.

you got a PM

[woundweaver]

im doomed :(

[Angelus_dead]

Up to 5. The user CP only shows your 5 most recent infractions.
It shows a total of 5 infractions and warnings per page, but there should be a button to move to other pages of 5 more entries. Which ones are infractions and which ones are warnings isn't labelled except by the color of a small red/orange rectangle next to the entry.

[Xatasha]

If things start getting a little to out of hand due to this then it might be worthwhile to discuss a boycott. No one posting on the forums wouldn't look good for them.

[woundweaver]

So someone who gets 10 infractions in 4+ years, 9 of which could have been 3 years ago under another moderator, all within a week of each other, deserves the same ban as someone who is brand new and gets 10 infractions on day 1.

Got it. Makes perfect sense.

Seriously Turbine, what's the thinking here? Lifetime limits punish long term players. That's why the original life time points counts were replaced with expiring points - remember doing that and saying you were making the change to be more fair?

Also changing the rules without letting people know is rather cold and inappropriate.

yup :)

[Visty]

It shows a total of 5 infractions and warnings per page, but there should be a button to move to other pages of 5 more entries. Which ones are infractions and which ones are warnings isn't labelled except by the color of a small red/orange rectangle next to the entry.

well, theres no such button

[Impaqt]

I've made plenty of post disagreeing with something turbine said or implemented. Never received a single infraction from those. Turbine does not issue infraction points to for presenting an alternative viewpoint on something. Personal attacks(be it against turbine employees or other forum members) are where you Ccunulate points and infractions for the most part.

[jjflanigan]

Hmm -- it appears I have to retract my statement before, there doesn't seem to be any consistency about how to enforce "the rules" and what actually is deserving of an infraction point :(

[Grimgore]

Agreed on the fact that they never expire blows, but like Imp said, I have disagreed a lot with Turbine and others on the server and have never managed an infraction point. Just keep it clean and civil is all you need to do and life is good....:D

[Angelus_dead]

Wasn't such an issue before, but now that infracs are going to be held against peeps forever...
Yes, permanent never-expiring infractions only make sense if the moderators have never made a mistake, and never will in the future. The old system of infractions that expired over time gave them a lot of freedom to not worry about having to be absolutely perfect, because occasionally being too harsh once in a while was no problem.

In the past week I've twice seen a Turbine staffer write something that a moderator might have given an infraction for, had it come from a customer.

[Visty]

I've made plenty of post disagreeing with something turbine said or implemented. Never received a single infraction from those. Turbine does not issue infraction points to for presenting an alternative viewpoint on something. Personal attacks(be it against turbine employees or other forum members) are where you Ccunulate points and infractions for the most part.

you only got none cause they like you

they will never say it, but they are biased

[Angelus_dead]

Personal attacks(be it against turbine employees or other forum members) are where you Ccunulate points and infractions for the most part.
That is one of the listed conditions for issuing infractions, but there other rules too; and more importantly is the fact that the moderators will sometimes issue infractions for not violating any rule.

Just think of the hundreds of posts per day and the hundreds of days this forum has been open: it is statistically implausible to suppose that they've never misinterpreted something as an infraction. If customers were allowed to discuss moderation actions, I'm sure some people could come in with a few examples.

[Hokiewa]

You don't get infractions for questioning turbine...you get infractions for being rude, jerkish, etc, so this has nothing to do with requiring you to be a "yes man"


That having been said I think it defeats the purpose of them changing it so infractions fall off if they are now going to be permanent again.

This is not entirely true. There are/were dozens if not hundreds of people that received infractions years ago for simply disagreeing with Turbine. Can I offer proof? Nope, those forum pages have long been deleted. Remember, this isn't an automated process, moderators now have emotions. Before, "some" didn't lol.

[Ulurjah]

Yes, permanent never-expiring infractions only make sense if the moderators have never made a mistake, and never will in the future. The old system of infractions that expired over time gave them a lot of freedom to not worry about having to be absolutely perfect, because occasionally being too harsh once in a while was no problem.

In the past week I've twice seen a Turbine staffer write something that a moderator might have given an infraction for, had it come from a customer.

This.

I have a friend, if you will, who got a series of infractions for merely quoting Turbine employee's and calling them out about why what they said didn't line up with what happened. Said friend also got an infraction once for just posting in a thread telling everyone to calm down and keep their temper's in check.

The "awarding" of infractions is very subjective, and what won't get a second look from one admin or moderator will get you a couple points from another.

Punishing your long term subscribers is the height of foolishness. Everyone is going to have something that gets them heated up from time to time ... and there are many many many veterans, if they were allowed to speak freely, who could post screenshots of things they got infracted for that would make us all scratch our heads and try to figure out what was wrong.

I would seriously urge you guys to reconsider this. Ten might seem like a very generous number, until you realize that some of the most helpful and valuable members of this community are human beings too, and they are bound to get an infraction here and there. As time goes forward, more and more of the most valuable posters are going to get perma-banned ... and almost surely without ever having done anything seriously wrong.

[Thrudh]

I've made plenty of post disagreeing with something turbine said or implemented. Never received a single infraction from those. Turbine does not issue infraction points to for presenting an alternative viewpoint on something. Personal attacks(be it against turbine employees or other forum members) are where you Ccunulate points and infractions for the most part.

This.

[Ulurjah]

This.

We're not allowed to discuss specific moderation actions ... but Impaqt is the exception, not the rule.

[Thrudh]

However, I'm totally against permanent infractions...

I say make them expire after 3 years at least...

[Thrudh]

Note I agree that they should NOT be permanent. That's a terrible policy.

[Schmoe]

might have to start our own forums...simply to easy to get an infraction....

It's already been done. PM for info on another forum.

[Seamonkeysix]

I've made plenty of post disagreeing with something turbine said or implemented. Never received a single infraction from those. Turbine does not issue infraction points to for presenting an alternative viewpoint on something. Personal attacks(be it against turbine employees or other forum members) are where you Ccunulate points and infractions for the most part.

But you left out the part about how you've never pulled anything but masterwork weapons and armor, and somehow your experience points seems to be scaled to a -75%. ;):D

[Schmoe]

So someone who gets 10 infractions in 4+ years, 9 of which could have been 3 years ago under another moderator, all within a week of each other, deserves the same ban as someone who is brand new and gets 10 infractions on day 1.

Got it. Makes perfect sense.

Seriously Turbine, what's the thinking here? Lifetime limits punish long term players. That's why the original life time points counts were replaced with expiring points - remember doing that and saying you were making the change to be more fair?

Also changing the rules without letting people know is rather cold and inappropriate.

I agree. The policy punishes long-time users of the forums and encourages the veterans to seek out a place that's more forgiving. Change the rules without informing people is akin to deliberately trying to set a trap for unwitting posters.

[Visty]

10 points wont ban you, 10 infractions will
you need 20 points for the perma ban

i heard they even can come in packs of 5^^ but i cant remember why that person in question got them

[woundweaver]

10 points wont ban you, 10 infractions will
you need 20 points for the perma ban

i heard they even can come in packs of 5^^ but i cant remember why that person in question got them

hehe, i understand. thanks
but...rule still sucks :)
if they are expired, they should be expired
or are they gonna turn away long time money, and potentially ban someone who cares? people dont get angry and waste time posting if they didnt care about the product, and whether things are WAI or not
sugar coating, sunshine and butterflies has never worked :) we usually get silence, which leads to anger
the only time attention gets paid to something is when multiple people get angry and start posting. its sad, really. and someone always has to take one for the team :D
they made it this way :(

[Matuse]

Odd, my userCP doesn't have an infractions section. Does it only show up if you have an infraction?

[rest]

It shows a total of 5 infractions and warnings per page, but there should be a button to move to other pages of 5 more entries. Which ones are infractions and which ones are warnings isn't labelled except by the color of a small red/orange rectangle next to the entry.

There is no way to get to a second page. At least not on this particular forum. Other forums I have been on that use vBulletin have multiple pages for infractions. This one does not.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

You don't get infractions for questioning turbine...you get infractions for being rude, jerkish, etc, so this has nothing to do with requiring you to be a "yes man"


That having been said I think it defeats the purpose of them changing it so infractions fall off if they are now going to be permanent again.

No, you can also get infractions for questioning the mods. Trust me on this.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I've made plenty of post disagreeing with something turbine said or implemented. Never received a single infraction from those. Turbine does not issue infraction points to for presenting an alternative viewpoint on something. Personal attacks(be it against turbine employees or other forum members) are where you Ccunulate points and infractions for the most part.

You can also get them for "challenging" the mods. But I agree, just saying "the new death penalty is stupid" won't get you infractions.

[Hendrik]

Just don't violate the EULA/ToS and your fine.

Odd that Expired points, that have well, Expired under the rules now count against you under the new rules.


Oh well.

Less posting in the future.

[Visty]

you at least get an answer if you send them PMs, but i bet back then they did actually read all pms they got and not just those which they wanted

[Gremmlynn]

Just don't violate the EULA/ToS and your fine.

Odd that Expired points, that have well, Expired under the rules now count against you under the new rules.


Oh well.

Less posting in the future.If I'm reading the new rules right the points expire but the infraction is permanent. So if, for example, a poster goes on a royal drunken forum rampage and manages to get two 5 point infractions. They get a day off for 10 points, but it only counts as two of the ten infractions needed for an an automatic account ban.

[woundweaver]

hehe, i see
but i just dont see them banning someone for being angry on the forums, then allow them to go into stormreach with a greatsword and a microphone :D

[Strakeln]

Don't know if it has been cleared up or not yet...

In your UserCP, only the most recent infractions are shown.

In your profile, under the infractions tab, you can see the entire list.

[Visty]

infractions always give at least 1 point. those which give 0 points are just warnings

[PopeJual]

And according to the guidelines, you'll get an infraction point for this post as well. I hope that you don't receive one since you're actually sticking up for Turbine and discussing a new forum rule change that was put in place without any announcement, but time will tell.

[PopeJual]

Also, could someone store a copy of this thread somewhere for when it gets deleted?

[Visty]

yellow = warning
red = infraction

[Wizzly_Bear]

yellow = warning
red = infraction
The trolling is weak in this one then :(

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

If this is in fact new, then if you are patient, respectful, nice and generally positive about your responses then I don't think you have anything to worry about. If you can't contain generally negative responses then yes, it sounds like you might have a problem shortly. But I've been on forums for all sorts of different games and these forums are by far one of the most hostile I've seen and I welcome any attempt to curb the negativity. However, having said that, I do find cumulative points right back from launch seems excessive and they should consider examining that.

[Hokiewa]

No, you can also get infractions for questioning the mods. Trust me on this.

This is absolutely true.

[Angelus_dead]

But I've been on forums for all sorts of different games and these forums are by far one of the most hostile I've seen
Do you remember if any of those games had such a low rate of developers acknowledging bugs?


However, having said that, I do find cumulative points right back from launch seems excessive and they should consider examining that.
It appears that a better way to address whatever problem they were trying to solve would've been to simply start increasing the timer length when they give out new infractions.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

This is absolutely true.

Not exactly.

You can get infractions for questioning the mods AFTER they tell you to drop it.

Disobeying the direct instructions of the mods will get you an infraction.

[Kalari]

But one I could see coming thank you for posting this AD seriously though this will probably be the final days of my posting in this forums freely. I had already distance myself from the muskateer threads because I didnt want any of my snarky stuff coming back to bite that thread and keep it nice. But I know how I am I know the way I like posting and I know that the no no points have racked up and will only continue to do so. I'd rather not risk being banned so probably just going to lurk and read more just no fun having to watch what I have to type.

But honestly the writing was on the wall with the two words that cannot be typed alone, they didnt post these new guidelines themselves because they want us long term who have the no no points to mess up bad enough. Thats my belief at least and im sure the ones I think are the true trolls will be happier full of a board of people who see nothing wrong with anything in the game.

[Mirta]

They infuriate me with the same things that have been going on since I started playing. Same bugs which haven't been fixed since launch, recurring lag which gets no attention, exploits which benefit us being fixed immediately while game-breaking bugs which harm us never get fixed or can wait for the next mod in several months, no new high level content for months at a time, "vast and mysterious" for over a year, pathetic excuses for "epic" gear, ignoring suggestions and complaints by large portions of the playerbase, punishing players who voice negative opinions while giving mournlands access to suckups, changing game mechanics and features which have worked perfectly for years for broken new systems, lack of play testing, letting several new bugs in every mod due to not listening to reports or complaints, etc.

The only thing that has really changed that I've seen is the in-game support. They respond in minutes rather than hours or days. +++

So excuse me if I feel the need to rant and complain on the forums. It's not like I'm a paying customer or anything.

[Asketes]

I'm not thrilled with the idea of infractions-never-go-away. Someone who says something inappropriate twice a year for 5 years shouldn't be treated the same way as someone who says something inappropriate twice a week for 5 weeks.


This makes complete sense. I mean even real and functioning laws allow for something like this.

I can get a speeding ticket once every 18 months, and if I take my class, nothing on the record.

It makes sense.. oh wait :o

<3

-Perma

[binnsr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agi8PUmlAKU

Wait .. Thought we weren't supposed to talk about Fight Club...

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

Do you remember if any of those games had such a low rate of developers acknowledging bugs?

That's a good point, I suppose most others were pretty decent with their bugs and fixes.

[TiberiusofTyr]

I wonder if anyone has already been caught by surprise by these changes?

[Rumbaar]

I noticed this in July due to things I can't talk about. But there seems to be no practical method to dispute any infractions points.

They will not discuss them via the forum, they do not respond to PM's and the support section of the forum ignores [without response] any enquiries submitted.

The 'permanent' nature of the 'temporary' infraction points makes it more important to get any wrongly assigned infractions purged and not just expired.

[Ulurjah]

I think that was me... in your dungeon alert thread. I'm sorry about that. I've come around to the dark side on that particular issue now.



I noticed this in July due to things I can't talk about. But there seems to be no practical method to dispute any infractions points.

They will not discuss them via the forum, they do not respond to PM's and the support section of the forum ignores [without response] any enquiries submitted.

The 'permanent' nature of the 'temporary' infraction points makes it more important to get any wrongly assigned infractions purged and not just expired.

This. You get no response if you try and ask questions about your infractions. They won't even clarify... let alone reverse a decision.

[Memnir]

10 total equates a perma-ban?
So long folks, it's been grand - but I won't hang around under the barrel of a gun.

Blisteringly ******** policy.

[Ulurjah]

10 total equates a perma-ban?
So long folks, it's been grand - but I won't hang around under the barrel of a gun.

Blisteringly ******** policy.

I find that the longer I am around here in this community, the more I come to agree with you Mem.

[jkm]

But I've been on forums for all sorts of different games and these forums are by far one of the most hostile I've seen and I welcome any attempt to curb the negativity.

i know this post will be highlighted as the reason they are doing this, but i take it you never went to the AoC forums or the PotBS forums. i was shocked at what rusty (the owner of flying labs) took from forumites. he gave out 1 day bans for statements that i would have eradicated all trace of the posters game account from my servers.

[woundweaver]

its blatantly stupid
and even more stupid to follow the usual course of action, and keep silent about the new policy. trapping people to keep them silent is dirty pool :(
seems since WB seems to be calling some shots recently, they want these forums quiet. only way to do that is to put new rules in place, silently, and let them rack themselves to a permaban.
they are gonna love this thread come monday!! so, since nobody else has, ill get it out the way now.....
IBTL!!!! :D

[Scraap]

Hrm... post tag says
DDO Community Guidelines
August 05, 2010
So 23 days without a word except there.
A civil person would say that lacks courtesy.
A more honest one... well, those infractions *are* permanent now, so.

[Junts]

Here's the thing: Its clear that this policy is aimed at a very specific type of forum-goer. We have some trolls here (my server provides a few) who do the following:

Use forum account 1 and provoke/antagonize until a temporary ban is given or a permanent one is close.
Stop using account 1 and switch to account 2. Repeat the process until account 1's infractions have expired (since most infractions these days are given for 3 mos, that isn't that hard.. as long as they get no more than about 1/10 days they don't risk a ban on the 2nd account)

when infractions/temp ban are up on the 1st account, return to it and repeat the process.

These people are the target of this policy: forum accounts with tons and tons of infractions and deleted posts. Those of you with tons of infractions from KK are not the targets, and my guess is that any automated ban you recieve as normal forum-goers (eg Memnir, delt, etc) would be reversed with an email or two.

If the people who were perma-banned from game and forum for abusing the jeets free exp glitch could talk their way into unbanning, most of you are in no real danger.

[IronClan]

Turbine staffer write something that a moderator might have given an infraction for, had it come from a customer.

:rolleyes: sure you did...

[Dinglebarry]

Bah, yet another grind!

[Angelus_dead]

Stop using account 1 and switch to account 2. Repeat the process until account 1's infractions have expired (since most infractions these days are given for 3 mos, that isn't that hard
The sensible response to a problem like that would be to give longer infractions, especially to those particular accounts that are known to make those problems.


my guess is that any automated ban you recieve as normal forum-goers (eg Memnir, delt, etc) would be reversed with an email or two.
Unfortunately that guess is incorrect.

[Vissarion]

10 total equates a perma-ban?
So long folks, it's been grand - but I won't hang around under the barrel of a gun.

Blisteringly ******** policy.

See, this is part of what makes a policy like this so bad. A highly restrictive forum guideline has a couple effects from what I've seen in the forums I've posted on:

1. Good posters, and I don't mean the helpful and insightful ones, but primarily the funny, incisive, and sharp-witted ones, start posting less. Humor and satire intrinsically test human reactions (and god forbid someone say something that is sharply-worded), and eventually you're going to be slightly off, someone will get offended, and you'll get disciplined. Some will continue posting, but some will also stop based off the simple calculation that it's not in their interest to do so.

Result: The forums get more boring.

2. Occasionally forumites will rebel simply for the sake of rebelling against the restrictions, resulting in vitriol that simply wouldn't have happened in a more relaxed setting. In political science, they call this process micro-mobilization: the authorities repress and experience short-term gains from quelling opposition, but they inadvertently alienate ever-larger segments of the populace until they have an even larger uprising. Every subsequent repression brings diminishing returns.

Result: Occasional outbursts, infractions, and bannings. Eventually less people post and find alternate forums.

Neither of these scenarios would really happen under looser guidelines. Sure, looser guidelines allow for a higher chance for people to get offended by other posters, but people are ALWAYS going to find things to be offended by. I would rather have the occasional offence than to render the discourse on the forums into a dull, mushy kind of blandness. That's the one thing that unites the forums I've been on that have stricter rules: they are invariably more boring. Heck, keep rules against obvious stuff like profanity (although we're apparently helpless prudes based on what gets censored), yadda-yadda-yadda, but that by no means necessitates a stifling form of management.

I've never gotten an infraction, and I'm not the kind of person to get infractions, but these changes seem absolutely boneheaded and likely to result in even worse outcomes even to relatively harmless posters like myself.

[Xgemina]

How long has this been in place with no word from Turbine? Obviously the days of no information are still alive in Turbine HQ. Absolutely ridiculous policy.

[dunklezhan]

Bah, yet another grind!

I lol'd.

But more seriously this is:

1. a badly thought out and over the top rule
2. a badly thought out implementation of a policy change

With regard 1: others have explained why this is much better than I would've/could've.
With regard 2: Simply put, you shouldn't go around changing rules retrospectively without telling people - ideally you shouldn't make rules retrospective at all unless it's exceptional circumstances.

If you wanted to implement something like this (even given #1 above), the correct way to do it would be announce it with some notice, and only have it apply from the date of implementation onwards. An even better way would have been to consult as with the proposed TWF changes - the proposals may have been unpopular but at least everyone knew they were coming.

Turbine, how can you possibly think this was a good idea? Was this dreamt up by the same person who implemented the Offer Wall?

Edit: note, I have no infractions. Clearly, at least to date, I have been a Good Wittle Dwagon. Lets hope my criticisms above don't prove infraction-worthy, because I don't intend to change the way I post because of a change like this. I for one refuse to live in fear. I'd simply follow Memnir's example if I felt things were getting too oppressive on the forums.

[IronClan]

If this is in fact new, then if you are patient, respectful, nice and generally positive about your responses then I don't think you have anything to worry about. If you can't contain generally negative responses then yes, it sounds like you might have a problem shortly. But I've been on forums for all sorts of different games and these forums are by far one of the most hostile I've seen and I welcome any attempt to curb the negativity. However, having said that, I do find cumulative points right back from launch seems excessive and they should consider examining that.

I agree with this... I've played a lot of games and seen a lot of ranting. As far back as compuserve BB's on a 9600 baud modem. I've definitely seen worse RANTS, but I've never seen a forum where the "positive" posters can be counted with two hands....

[edit] BTW whoever neg repped me, I plan to contest it, not something I'd normally do but it's clearly an abuse of the rep system to neg me for disagreeing with A_D. So anyway.... Sure hope you aren't sitting at max infractions... good luck that and maybe think twice about abusing rep the next time :)

[Kalari]

I think that was me... in your dungeon alert thread. I'm sorry about that. I've come around to the dark side on that particular issue now.




This. You get no response if you try and ask questions about your infractions. They won't even clarify... let alone reverse a decision.

Meh if it was dont worry about it your not the first Ive gotten into trouble going the rounds with :) heck called someone a flipping (word changed for pg-13 reasons) Idiot few weeks back to. You see Im human and I am emotional I get worked up at times hence why I try not to post on the boards after having a few drinks. But I already had that precaution set up. I dont want to change how I am when im sober and want to actively debate, point out issues I feel hurt the game and the like. Its just not worth posting in an environment where you feel you have to always watch what you say or risk disappearing. I thought about going after they banned two words I never even used simply because of what that means. Catering to those who let two words hurt their feelings seemed ridiculous to me. But do I dare say anything about it in the boards? Nope it would make trouble cause waves..

So maybe they are tired of us who rock the boat, they want posters who dont point out every little thing. They want the kind of guys who will argue down anyone who sees any flaw, thats what I take from this new "super secret" rule they put in place. So believe me no matter what quality control says or does on Monday many of us have been feeling the squeeze of play our way on this forums or else for a while now and this is just the final straw.

[Ulurjah]

Meh if it was dont worry about it your not the first Ive gotten into trouble going the rounds with :) heck called someone a flipping (word changed for pg-13 reasons) Idiot few weeks back to. You see Im human and I am emotional I get worked up at times hence why I try not to post on the boards after having a few drinks. But I already had that precaution set up. I dont want to change how I am when im sober and want to actively debate, point out issues I feel hurt the game and the like. Its just not worth posting in an environment where you feel you have to always watch what you say or risk disappearing. I thought about going after they banned two words I never even used simply because of what that means. Catering to those who let two words hurt their feelings seemed ridiculous to me. But do I dare say anything about it in the boards? Nope it would make trouble cause waves..

So maybe they are tired of us who rock the boat, they want posters who dont point out every little thing. They want the kind of guys who will argue down anyone who sees any flaw, thats what I take from this new "super secret" rule they put in place. So believe me no matter what quality control says or does on Monday many of us have been feeling the squeeze of play our way on this forums or else for a while now and this is just the final straw.

Yeah... I finally stopped procrastinating on asking about the "other" forum today ... not sure that i'll still have posting privileges here after Monday morning.

[PopeJual]

I
[edit] BTW whoever neg repped me, I plan to contest it, not something I'd normally do but it's clearly an abuse of the rep system to neg me for disagreeing with A_D. So anyway.... Sure hope you aren't sitting at max infractions... good luck that and maybe think twice about abusing rep the next time :)

Yeah, that was me.

I neg repped you because you used a sacrastic post to accuse someone of lying when I happen to have seen the same thing that A_D did: possibly not the same post, but at least one post that was infractionable (infractable? who cares...).


:rolleyes: sure you did...

I won't say that I've gotten infraction points for calling someone a liar (which is exactly what you did), but that's mostly because talking about infraction points gets you infraction points. The only reason that I didn't /report your post is that I'm making a major effort to not be a whiny little crybaby who runs to the mods every time he sees something "offensive".

[picaisfun]

Looks like I will go back to just reading the forums and not posting.
http://lolcats.com/images/u/07/28/lolcatsdotcomsw2yob75kktitg6s.jpg

[Razcar]

Could we please get the senior CM Patience come on here and explain these points:


One effect of this change is that it will eventually ban long-term and/or frequent posters. While you might argue that your moderators never make mistakes, we as posters sure do now and then again. And now they will accumulate until we get banned. Could you please explain your reasons for not wanting long-term and frequent posters on your forums?
How did you think this system will affect posters that have been here for over four years, and might have gotten unfair infraction points by past moderators that were more heavy-handed? If you are to enforce this new draconian order, wouldn't it be fair to delete those old infractions?
What was your reason for implementing this rule about one month ago but not making an announcement about it?

Thank you.

[OverlordOfRats]

Having read the DDO Community Guidelines (http://www.ddo.com/community/1059-ddo-community-guidelines#infractions), I have to wonder if they are having a terminology problem? From the what I read of the original, we will never get a 1 day ban (10 Active points) because that is 10 points which equals a permanent ban (A total of 10 infractions).

Do they mean:
Infraction points are both permanent and cumulative, although many infractions will automatically expire from “Active” status. The number of infraction points issued may vary according to the severity of the incident.

Temporary and permanent bans will be automatically issued by the Infraction system when your account reaches the following thresholds:

* 10 Active Infraction points: 1 day Temporary Ban
* 15 Active Infraction points: 3 days Temporary Ban
* 20 Active Infraction points: Permanent Ban
* A total of 2 Temporary Bans (not infractions)* (Free accounts): Permanent Ban
* A total of 10 Temporary Bans (not infractions)* (Premium or VIP accounts): Permanent Ban


Could we get a clarification on this from the staff on Monday?


To the question about reversing a ban the following is posted two paragraphs down:

If your Community account has been banned and you feel this ban is in error, ban appeals may be sent through http://support.turbine.com. (Choose the solution center for DDO.) Please include your Community account name in all correspondence.

[TigrisMorte]

Turbine was recently bought by a much larger corporate entity.
This forum is, by most marketing executives consideration, a prime PR object.
Large corporations often have very specific rules on what and how things are to "appear".
Large corporation do not like "official forums" to have significant amounts of unfavorable press quotable posts.
This does not mean that they don't allow dissent. This means that the don't want things that might get reported as "unsuitable" for the target audience.
Odds are these changes are from on high.

[sirdanile]

I dislike this change...as a poster who has never had a single infraction in more than 3 years.

[Ulurjah]

Having read the DDO Community Guidelines (http://www.ddo.com/community/1059-ddo-community-guidelines#infractions), I have to wonder if they are having a terminology problem? From the what I read of the original, we will never get a 1 day ban (10 Active points) because that is 10 points which equals a permanent ban (A total of 10 infractions).

Do they mean:
Infraction points are both permanent and cumulative, although many infractions will automatically expire from “Active” status. The number of infraction points issued may vary according to the severity of the incident.

Temporary and permanent bans will be automatically issued by the Infraction system when your account reaches the following thresholds:

* 10 Active Infraction points: 1 day Temporary Ban
* 15 Active Infraction points: 3 days Temporary Ban
* 20 Active Infraction points: Permanent Ban
* A total of 2 Temporary Bans (not infractions)* (Free accounts): Permanent Ban
* A total of 10 Temporary Bans (not infractions)* (Premium or VIP accounts): Permanent Ban


Could we get a clarification on this from the staff on Monday?


To the question about reversing a ban the following is posted two paragraphs down:

If your Community account has been banned and you feel this ban is in error, ban appeals may be sent through http://support.turbine.com. (Choose the solution center for DDO.) Please include your Community account name in all correspondence.

I can tell you from experience that a single infraction is often worth 2 or more points. So, you could get 2 infractions each worth 5 points and have 10 active points ... which would give you 24 hours to think about what you said.

[gryphonxxii]

well, could someone PM me with that alternate forum? I never post much to begin with and it would appear I am not going to start doing so.......ever.

[PopeJual]

Having read the DDO Community Guidelines (http://www.ddo.com/community/1059-ddo-community-guidelines#infractions), I have to wonder if they are having a terminology problem? From the what I read of the original, we will never get a 1 day ban (10 Active points) because that is 10 points which equals a permanent ban (A total of 10 infractions).

Some infractions come with more than one point.

It's possible to get a 2 or 3 or even a 5 point infraction from a post and I've heard rumors of people getting a one day ban for a single post if it contains the (in)correct words.

[OverlordOfRats]

Some infractions come with more than one point.

It's possible to get a 2 or 3 or even a 5 point infraction from a post and I've heard rumors of people getting a one day ban for a single post if it contains the (in)correct words.

Sorry maybe I wasn't quite clear on that statement.

The reason I would not get the temporary ban is because it has the same number of points as the permanent one listed at the bottom. Both are 10 points.

[Blackbird]

Sorry maybe I wasn't quite clear on that statement.

The reason I would not get the temporary ban is because it has the same number of points as the permanent one listed at the bottom. Both are 10 points.

A perm-ban is 10 total infractions (regardless of how many points each was). Temporary bans are based on current active points. So, you can have an infraction on Day 1 which gets you 5 active points and an infraction on Day 3 which gets you 5 points and now you have a temporary ban but since you only have 2 total infractions you are not perma-banned. Make sense?

[OverlordOfRats]

A perm-ban is 10 total infractions (regardless of how many points each was). Temporary bans are based on current active points. So, you can have an infraction on Day 1 which gets you 5 active points and an infraction on Day 3 which gets you 5 points and now you have a temporary ban but since you only have 2 total infractions you are not perma-banned. Make sense?

*Light bulb goes off over head*

Ah, yes that does. Thank you.

[Zachski]

Wow, 2 infractions for us F2P folk? Really? Really, Turbine? Wow.

And the fact that no one was informed of this policy change... regardless...

F2P players really are second-class "citizens". Not all of us can afford to pay for stuff as soon as we get the game, especially with either expensive or cost inefficient turbine point packs.. We're all ultimately human, and we make mistakes. But... 2 mistakes, and I'm permanently banned from the forums?

No, Turbine. This is not acceptable. Look at my forum join date. Are you going to treat me the same way you'd treat the troll who signed up one day to spam the forums simply because I am F2P?

And worst of all, the moderators are kept in the dark, too, about what the infractions they assign are going to do. It'd be very easy for an admonition and a warning for future performance to suddenly become a perma-ban without the moderator knowing.

This system is flawed. Heavily flawed. Listen to your players, Turbine. Listen to your customers, both present and future. That is the only way you can succeed as a company.

[Maegin]

ibtl.

http://i580.photobucket.com/albums/ss248/pbrown63303/totally-awesome-things-8.jpg

[Impaqt]

Wow, 2 infractions for us F2P folk? Really? Really, Turbine? Wow.

And since infractions are permament, I am now permanently one step away from being permanently banned, despite being apparently better behaved than most Premium or VIP players. I only have one infraction, and it expired a long time ago, but apparently, it still counts against me.

And the fact that no one was informed of this policy change... regardless...

F2P players really are second-class "citizens". Not all of us can afford to pay for stuff as soon as we get the game, especially with either expensive or cost inefficient turbine point packs.. We're all ultimately human, and we make mistakes. But... 2 mistakes, and I'm permanently banned from the forums?

No, Turbine. This is not acceptable. Look at my forum join date. Are you going to treat me the same way you'd treat the troll who signed up one day to spam the forums simply because I am F2P? If I gain one more infraction, I'm going to be perma-banned.

And worst of all, the moderators are kept in the dark, too, about what the infractions they assign are going to do. It'd be very easy for an admonition and a warning for future performance to suddenly become a perma-ban without the moderator knowing.

This system is flawed. Heavily flawed. Listen to your players, Turbine. Listen to your customers, both present and future. That is the only way you can succeed as a company.

I didnt think F2P could post inGeneral?

Are you sure you are not Premium?

[joneb1999]

I can tell you from experience that a single infraction is often worth 2 or more points. So, you could get 2 infractions each worth 5 points and have 10 active points ... which would give you 24 hours to think about what you said.

So does that also mean you can get an infraction without getting any sort of ban for it if its worth only two points? The points sytem doesnt seem fair in regards to a full infracion if simply 2 points or 10 points can both equal an infraction since a 10 point must be much more severe.

[Zachski]

I didnt think F2P could post inGeneral?

Are you sure you are not Premium?

2 character slots per server

Can't post in race forums

AFK Logout timer of 10 minutes

My account type is "FREE" upon looking it up in "My Account"

Yeah, F2P

[jcTharin]

if its just infractions than i might be ok. but if warnings count...

lets see

the wall, dice change, U5, the Hi Welcome ban.

there are a lot of people who are pretty much ****ed

[Chai]

Do you remember if any of those games had such a low rate of developers acknowledging bugs?

Most are worse, they acknowledge them and do nothing, and blatently admit it. All this while keeping up with the weekly nerfs due to PvP balance which completely destroys the PvE experience most are trying to have. This is especially true in the larger MMOs, where they have to do nothing more than keep the lights on, as the game sells itself.



It appears that a better way to address whatever problem they were trying to solve would've been to simply start increasing the timer length when they give out new infractions.

/sarcasm on

Naaaa, lets just change traffic tickets into an offense that garners jail time, then toss all past offenders into the slammer.

[TreknaQudane]

2 character slots per server

Can't post in race forums

AFK Logout timer of 10 minutes

My account type is "FREE" upon looking it up in "My Account"

Yeah, F2P

You've paid nothing into the game.

If you get banned from the forums, you've lost nothing.

You want to be treated like VIP/Premium? Spend 6.50 USD

[IronClan]

Well hey at least I know who to name, big surprise too... BTW I'll say the same thing to you: sure you did... I saw the post (at least I'm pretty sure we're talking about the same stuff) and to say it could have gotten an infraction is laughable. But typically anything that isn't sugar coated syrupy sweet would be considered a grave insult by a user base that constantly directs invective and outright insults at the Devs when they wouldn't do the same thing at another forum poster because they know the same comments directed at another forumite would be grounds for infractions...

Lets put it this way... How often has anyone seen a forum poster get away with calling another forum poster: "incompetent", "borderline ********", "idiots" etc? Which are some of the more common insults thrown at Turbine lately?

[Chai]

if its just infractions than i might be ok. but if warnings count...

lets see

the wall, dice change, U5, the Hi Welcome ban.

there are a lot of people who are pretty much ****ed

I bet they could rifle through the U5 combat feedback thread, the F2P thread(s), the anti DA threads, and the stat damage nerf thread(s), and kill off 1/3 of the entire vet forum population, retroactively. :p

[Zachski]

You've paid nothing into the game.

If you get banned from the forums, you've lost nothing.

You want to be treated like VIP/Premium? Spend 6.50 USD

And it's the exact attitude that makes me stay F2P.

I am a human being. You are, too. You do not have the right to look down on me.

And $6.50 for 420 TP. What can you buy with 420 TP? Pointless items that no one would ever spend actual money on. You can't buy any classes with that. You can't buy any races with that. You can't buy any adventure packs with that.

I'd rather spend $6.50 for 650 Turbine points. A proper one-to-one exchange. I do not have $50 to frivolously spend on a large pack of points. Anything less is being short-changed.

As for what I lose...

I lose my name.

I lose my identity.

I lose communication with the only decent source of information about this game.

I lose a community.

I'm pretty sure creating a new account is ban-evasion and would make me lose that name, too.

And finally, of least significance, I lose my rep. 4 green bars, down the tube. But that's really minor.

[Ulurjah]

And it's the exact attitude that makes me stay F2P.

I am a human being. You are, too. You do not have the right to look down on me.

And $6.50 for 420 TP. What can you buy with 420 TP? Pointless items that no one would ever spend actual money on. You can't buy any classes with that. You can't buy any races with that. You can't buy any adventure packs with that.

I'd rather spend $6.50 for 650 Turbine points. A proper one-to-one exchange. I do not have $50 to frivolously spend on a large pack of points. Anything less is being short-changed.

No ... don't you get it? That 1-to-1 ratio is a bonus for spending so much money ... it's not that the $6.50 package is only worth 420 points to penalize you for not spending more.

[Chai]

I won't say that I've gotten infraction points for calling someone a liar (which is exactly what you did), but that's mostly because talking about infraction points gets you infraction points. The only reason that I didn't /report your post is that I'm making a major effort to not be a whiny little crybaby who runs to the mods every time he sees something "offensive".

The first rule of fight club is dont talk about fight club.

Although this club is now completely sterile with babygates on all stairwells and plastic outlet protectors in all unused outlets. Please only use your indoor voice. Thank you for shopping.

[Zachski]

No ... don't you get it? That 1-to-1 ratio is a bonus for spending so much money ... it's not that the $6.50 package is only worth 420 points to penalize you for not spending more.

And ironically, it's making me spend NO money instead of any money at all.

Funny how that works, eh? I just don't have $50 to spend on a game that's as buggy as this.

As I mentioned, you can't buy anything of worth with 420 points. And while I could add my Favor-TP to that list and buy something, what's the point of buying the TP? Premium?

If I'm going to support the game proper, I'm going VIP. But if this is going to happen, I'm not going to support the oppression of a group of players based on their lack of a payment. F2P, Premium, or VIP, we're all human beings, and we're all players who have to start somewhere and work our way up. Classism is a wicked thing.

[Philibusta]

Don't know if it has been cleared up or not yet...

In your UserCP, only the most recent infractions are shown.

In your profile, under the infractions tab, you can see the entire list.

I looked...and uhh...I don't even have an "Infractions" tab in My Profile.

Does this mean I don't have any infractions (would be my guess)..cause, I mean, there's not even a tab there for it.

Nothing in User CP either.

I'm comfused.

And another small point...ehhh...isn't use of the forums supposed to be part of the package when subcribing to DDO? And if that's right, how can they ban you from using something that you're paying to use??

[Mockduck]

Are you all sure this is new? I remember reading that information a long time ago, maybe/probably around the launch of DDO:U. I'm pretty sure that, except for the new F2P threshold, this has been the way it's been since the launch of the game in 2006

[jjflanigan]

Are you all sure this is new? I remember reading that information a long time ago, maybe/probably around the launch of DDO:U. I'm pretty sure that, except for the new F2P threshold, this has been the way it's been since the launch of the game in 2006

Right below this section in the community guidelines it says

" If an account was above the limit when this change was implemented (August 2010) it will be banned if any further infractions are issued against it."

So it's new as of August 2010 --- although, I suppose that could just be referring to the limit for F2P.

http://www.ddo.com/community/1059-ddo-community-guidelines#infractions

[Ulurjah]

I looked...and uhh...I don't even have an "Infractions" tab in My Profile.

Does this mean I don't have any infractions (would be my guess)..cause, I mean, there's not even a tab there for it.

Nothing in User CP either.

I'm comfused.

And another small point...ehhh...isn't use of the forums supposed to be part of the package when subcribing to DDO? And if that's right, how can they ban you from using something that you're paying to use??

Click on the word "Profile" ... it doesn't at first appear that it should be a link, but it is.


Are you all sure this is new? I remember reading that information a long time ago, maybe/probably around the launch of DDO:U. I'm pretty sure that, except for the new F2P threshold, this has been the way it's been since the launch of the game in 2006

In the rules thing it says that the update to this system happened this month.

[Fenrisulven6]

He doesn't expect to stick around long enough for it to matter.

Thats the problem with making dumb rules - people reach a threshold where they simply no longer respect the ruleset.

[Zachski]

Hrm -- I'd assume there was a reason people weren't posting the link directly to the other forums and instead doing it only via PM -- you might want to remove it in case they had a reason for that.

I believe it's more of a "I'm gonna eat the infraction and get myself banned now rather than later"

[jjflanigan]

He doesn't expect to stick around long enough for it to matter.

Thats the problem with making dumb rules - people reach a threshold where they simply no longer respect the ruleset.

I wasn't thinking out of concern for himself, I was thinking out of respect for the owner of the other forums and their desire to only do it via PM ;)

[Philibusta]

Click on the word "Profile" ... it doesn't at first appear that it should be a link, but it is.

Um...maybe I'm stil lost but..I went to my User CP, and clicked on "Your Profile" (which does appear as a link...it's underlined) but when it goes to my Profile page, the word "Infractions" does not appear anywhere on that page. Not on a tab, nowhere.

Thanks for trying though.

[Mockduck]

ah, count me wrong then. Reading this on my cell phone, missed the august 2010 bit. I definitely remember seeing the points thing before, though, although it must be that the limits have been lowered.

[jjflanigan]

Um...maybe I'm stil lost but..I went to my User CP, and clicked on "Your Profile" (which does appear as a link...it's underlined) but when it goes to my Profile page, the word "Infractions" does not appear anywhere on that page. Not on a tab, nowhere.

Thanks for trying though.

That would, most likely, mean you have no infractions tied to your account.

[TiberiusofTyr]

Are you all sure this is new? I remember reading that information a long time ago, maybe/probably around the launch of DDO:U. I'm pretty sure that, except for the new F2P threshold, this has been the way it's been since the launch of the game in 2006

They added infraction event bans for premium and vip.

http://a.imageshack.us/img837/8308/infractions72010.jpg

[Philibusta]

That would, most likely, mean you have no infractions tied to your account.

a-HA! Well, in that case, I thank you for helping to un-confuse my newbie self.

Regardless of the fact that I have no infractions, however, I believe I will begin making use of the "Alternate Forum". Just waiting for my registration on that to be finalized. This policy here is one I am in strong disagreement with.

Being an American, I'm into the concept of free speech. I'm not into the hippy-dippy sissifeid philosophy of "oh no don't say anything cause it just might upset someone's wittle feewings and that would be politically incorrect". Its that line of thinking that has turned alot of society into thin-skinned wusses who cant have anything said contrary to them without getting their panties in a twist.

Anyway, sorry. Didnt mean to turn this into a rant. So Im'a shaddup about it. Thanks again Ulurja and JJ.

[TreknaQudane]

And $6.50 for 420 TP. What can you buy with 420 TP? Pointless items that no one would ever spend actual money on. You can't buy any classes with that. You can't buy any races with that. You can't buy any adventure packs with that.

I'd rather spend $6.50 for 650 Turbine points. A proper one-to-one exchange. I do not have $50 to frivolously spend on a large pack of points. Anything less is being short-changed.


420 Points

4 Character Slots

Less Restrictions on AH

Less Restrictions on Chat

Less Restrictions on Forum usage

Priority over F2P

Yeah.. Such a waste

You pay nothing, you deserve nothing, it's simple.

That you get anything is gravy.

[Hendrik]

10 total equates a perma-ban?
So long folks, it's been grand - but I won't hang around under the barrel of a gun.

Blisteringly ******** policy.

Yea. I agree Mem, ********. Now we have to double check our posts, re-word them so not to ruffle feathers, and be in 'fear' someone might take offense and decide to report posts.

Your right, the longest standing members here now have to walk on egg-shells to continue to assist this community and do what they like to do.

My time here on these forums helping other people and posting thoughts, ideas and suggestions are also prolly coming to an end. I can't post if I have to second guess my own thoughts if they will offend someone and get reported for it.

I enjoy this game way to much to jeopardize my account to continue posting. I made posting errors in the past, paid the price for those and since expired. Now they are being held over my head again.

No thank you.

[Thrudh]

Being an American, I'm into the concept of free speech. I'm not into the hippy-dippy sissifeid philosophy of "oh no don't say anything cause it just might upset someone's wittle feewings and that would be politically incorrect". Its that line of thinking that has turned alot of society into thin-skinned wusses who cant have anything said contrary to them without getting their panties in a twist.

Moderation on the Internet is a good thing... Every unmoderated forum I've ever been to is absolute anarchy and a complete waste of time... You ever read the comments after an article on Yahoo? 45% of the comments are "Obama is a communist", 45% are "It's all Bush's fault", 9% are spam about dating sites, and 1% actually discuss the article.

[Ulurjah]

Moderation on the Internet is a good thing... Every unmoderated forum I've ever been to is absolute anarchy and a complete waste of time... You ever read the comments after an article on Yahoo? 45% of the comments are "Obama is a communist", 45% are "It's all Bush's fault", 9% are spam about dating sites, and 1% actually discuss the article.

You haven't been to the alternate forum yet then. I suggest you take advantage of the fact that the link is currently visibly posted and go get yourself registered. I think you will be quite enlightened once you spend some time there. It's amazing what happens when two people can air out their disagreements with each other and work the hostility out of their systems. They find that they have far more in common than not. And then, well ... I don't want to spoil the surprise.

[TreknaQudane]

Being an American, I'm into the concept of free speech. I'm not into the hippy-dippy sissifeid philosophy of "oh no don't say anything cause it just might upset someone's wittle feewings and that would be politically incorrect". Its that line of thinking that has turned alot of society into thin-skinned wusses who cant have anything said contrary to them without getting their panties in a twist.


You have no right to free speech on this private forum.

[Plaidpooka]

I have only a handful of posts and I have no infractions as of yet, but I still find this policy quite disturbing. I agree with an earlier poster that this situation has most likely come about because Turbine is now owned by a larger corporate entity, and they tend to have much stricter rules on such things.

Let’s look at Disney for a moment. It doesn’t get much more “zero-tolerance” and mega-corporate than Disney. Disney states flat out that they can and will ban users from further access to their sites at any time and for any reason. However, even Disney will notify its users of a change in TOS. In fact, they’ll send you an email and tell you all about it. It disturbs me that a change in Turbine’s TOS with such drastic consequences was never announced. It took an alert reader to let folks know. I can imagine no reason for this, unless one is hoping to trick folks.

It also bothers me that this has been grandfathered, so that long-timers can be penalized for things that happened far before this policy took place. Back when, perhaps, some moderators were less worried about each infraction they decided upon, because there were no drastic punishments involved. If one is going to introduce such drastic measures as a permanent ban, why not let posters start off with a clean slate? Posters who seem intent on causing a ruckus and upsetting others will get themselves in trouble soon enough, and end up banned. Why not start off fresh, with both mods and posters having a clear understanding of the long-term consequences that their actions will have?

Because it isn’t a cut and dried issue. The most polite of posters can have the odd bad day, and the most diligent of mods can make mistakes. Before, these mistakes had only short term effects, so no great harm was done either way. A short term ban is frustrating when one feels one has been wrongfully accused, but one can deal with it. And if a mod may have gotten a little over-enthusiastic, a short term ban is inconvenient, but survivable, so less stress on the mods when they felt they had to make quick decisions. Now, it’s permadeath. As with all zero tolerance policies, there will be those caught in the cross fire who do not truly deserve it.

I have not posted here long, but I have been active in many such moderated forums. The thought that mods will never make an unjust call--or ten unjust calls, as the case may be-- is simply not realistic. Mods are human just as the rest of us. They can fall prey to misunderstanding, bias, prejudice, anger and frustration just as all of us can. They have a difficult job and it’s a rather thankless task. Of course they can make mistakes, its only human. However, in a system where there is permadeath, and no procedure in place for a poster to question a possible bad call, it’s going to hurt people who do not deserve it. And since it’s been grandfathered back to take into account every post generated since day one, it’s going to hurt some folks very quickly.

In the end, it’s Turbine’s puppy, and they can play with it anyway they wish. But folks don’t have to like it, or agree with it. And there are alternatives out there.

[Rumbaar]

As I said the only issue I have with this is the retroactive nature of the implementation, the sporadic and random nature that infractions points can be assigned and then no method or effective method to get infraction points looked at.

If infractions were for true infractions of rules, then there would be no issue. But it certainly isn't the case.

[AyumiAmakusa]

Rather than wasting your time talking about the new rules in a private forum where you have no power or control over what gets moderated, I suggest you PM Strakeln for the alternative forums and talk about it there.

[rest]

Bleh.

[zorander6]

Registered for the other forums, doubt I'll post much here again. This new policy is not a good thing. Really turns me away from playing the game as well though I'm not going to leave till I find something better.

[Dandonk]

Went ahead and registered on the other forum, too.

I find this change silly, and downright unfair to posters who've been here much longer than me. And as others have said - mods are human, too. Errare humanum est.

And the way this has been (not) announced I find underhanded.

If I want to find the interesting and informative and spirited posters - those I come here to read, to be entertained and enlightened by... well, then I guess I'll soon have to go elsewhere.

A sad, sad day.

[AyumiAmakusa]

And the way this has been (not) announced I find underhanded.

I'm not defending them but legally they have no obligation to report any changes they make within their CoC/ToS to the general public. There's a note somewhere that the list that says the information may be changed at any time without further notice and by playing the game we agreed to accept those terms (of not knowing what gets updated).

[Zachski]

420 Points

4 Character Slots

Less Restrictions on AH

Less Restrictions on Chat

Less Restrictions on Forum usage

Priority over F2P

Yeah.. Such a waste

You pay nothing, you deserve nothing, it's simple.

That you get anything is gravy.

Actually, yeah, that pretty much is a waste. Most of those things are a matter of patience, one is a non-issue (as a F2P player, I've never EVER had to wait in a queue for log in.), as far as forum usage goes, I have all the forums I need. 420 points and 4 character slots is really the only thing of any importance. And I can earn over 400 points in a few months, less if I actually took the time to dedicate myself to a single character.

Anyways, I'm glad most players don't have a classist attitude.

I'm frugal. If I don't need to spend the money, I don't. And with student loans to pay off, I'd be hard pressed to spend even $6 on a game that's, quite frankly, broken in several areas. I mean, several spells are heavily glitched. Some features don't work right. If WoW were as glitched as DDO is, people wouldn't really go for it, would they?

In any case, don't forget that you owe the revival of DDO to the F2P system being added. If it weren't for F2P players coming in, enjoying the game, and becoming Premium players, DDO would still be where it was. As of yet, DDO hasn't really done anything yet to earn my money.

[Visty]

Moderation on the Internet is a good thing... Every unmoderated forum I've ever been to is absolute anarchy and a complete waste of time... You ever read the comments after an article on Yahoo? 45% of the comments are "Obama is a communist", 45% are "It's all Bush's fault", 9% are spam about dating sites, and 1% actually discuss the article.

the alternate forum isnt moderated and *****ing regulateds itself after 2 pages, here it sticks almost forever

[Dandonk]

I'm not defending them but legally they have no obligation to report any changes they make within their CoC/ToS to the general public. There's a note somewhere that the list that says the information may be changed at any time without further notice and by playing the game we agreed to accept those terms (of not knowing what gets updated).

I'm well aware that Turbine is within their legal rights to do whatever they want, more or less. More more, than less, so to speak.

I don't think you disagree on this, but for emphasis: Doing something that is legal does not necessarily make it morally upstanding, nor ethically correct.
I find making such a change and not telling anyone about it underhanded. Yes, they're well within their rights to do it. But legalism has never appealed to me as a basis for morality.

[ShadowHand2]

It is because the rep system was not working fast enough to weed out the unwanted. As I was just informed in a direct email the Rep system WAS to have players police the forums. They just did not feel the need to tell people directly that.

[hecate355]

this gives 2 mixed feelings

first:

maybe its good, maybe people finally take responsibility about what they do/how they act, its not just a game and just a forum

no way on earth should this rule change be retroactive tho, this isnt the way things work in real life either, 99% of laws arent retroactive, thats nonsense. if expired infractions would stay expired i dont mind this whole change. you lost temper once, twice, thrice, but by then you should have learned something

2nd:

it gives me creepy Georg Orwell -like feeling about control an authority, were these forums really that bad to deserve such harsh rules, i mean permanent, seriously? some month or 2 is as good as permanent to civilize people. how many of us stay around for years? month is long time in internet gaming time. if some1 has been really rude, ban him for 1 week to month, if repeatedly, increase it. this would deserve exactly same purpose but would give people 2nd chance.

[Durion]

I'm well aware that Turbine is within their legal rights to do whatever they want, more or less. More more, than less, so to speak.

I don't think you disagree on this, but for emphasis: Doing something that is legal does not necessarily make it morally upstanding, nor ethically correct.
I find making such a change and not telling anyone about it underhanded. Yes, they're well within their rights to do it. But legalism has never appealed to me as a basis for morality.

No, but what goads me more than anything about this, I understand about the whole EULA stuff, thats fine. But I digress that this is being handled way wrong.

Why are they going to start perma-banning because people are too sensitive now? Grow some skin. There are ALOT of people on here, however, that have infractions because something they said got somebodies panties in a tizzy. Thats Bravo-Sierra.

If they're going on institute this, they need to become more lax on handing out infractions. We live in a society that shelters people too much. We're becoming a society of sissies.

I don't think Turbine is doing the right thing here, there have been better options presented. Longer times on infractions for example. Perma-banning the masses is not the answer.

People that are problems find ways to circumnavigate the rules. Banned? Create another account. That account gets banned, like they care. Some of us, though, have only this one account and mostly adhere to the rules. So, because of this, we're getting hit harder than those that do what they want anyhow.

/Fail on Turbine's part with this move.

[Razcar]

Hey Rest, did your mum sew those pants of yours out of old curtains or what?:p

[Razcar]

I'm not defending them but legally they have no obligation to report any changes they make within their CoC/ToS to the general public.There's no legal obligations to say please, thank you, offer a smile, hold up a door for someone or to tell guests the rules of your house before throwing them out, either. But it's common courtesy, and Turbine should get themselves some.

[Dandonk]

There's no legal obligations to say please, thank you, offer a smile, hold up a door for someone or let an old person have your seat on the bus either. But it's common courtesy, and Turbine should get themselves some.

Bah, you said it better than me.

[wolflordnexus]

Just signing in to add to the call of This is dumbsvile

[Antheal]

I'm not defending them but legally they have no obligation to report any changes they make within their CoC/ToS to the general public.

But we're not the "general public", we're Turbine's... whatever. Clients? Customers? Life support system?

[Clay]

Or at least wipe the slate clean so that all start at the same point, and the long term players are not punished for helping Turbine survive the long and monotonous lead up to the Vast and Mysterious.

[Xyfiel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0dPRx5XkGI

[SylviaCleric]

I'm really happy about this new policy myself. If people can't act mature and respectful towards other posters and even have to go as far as making more than 20 insults/personal attacks on other posters, despite repeated warnings, they definitely aren't the kind of people I'd want on a forum. Hopefully this will weed out those kind of posters or at least make them stop, so that new players won't have to be scared of posting anymore with all the flaming going on.

[Visty]

I'm really happy about this new policy myself. If people can't act mature and respectful towards other posters and even have to go as far as making more than 20 insults/personal attacks on other posters, despite repeated warnings, they definitely aren't the kind of people I'd want on a forum. Hopefully this will weed out those kind of posters or at least make them stop, so that new players won't have to be scared of posting anymore with all the flaming going on.

you dont get warnings befor infractions most of the time
also if you dont like vets and experienced players to help you, thats fine. but im sure not every new players feels like that

[PopeJual]

You have no right to free speech on this private forum.

Trekna is 100% correct in this. That's not what he was talking about, though.

I get irritated when I see people claim to have a right to free speech on private forums. Because they don't.

They do have a right to decide where they would like to speak, however. If someone likes free speech, then they are free to speak in a place other than the DDO forums when they feel that Turbine's restrictions have become too stifling.

"I have a right to free speech" is not the same thing as "I like free speech and if you aren't going to give it to me, then I'll go somewhere that the man isn't keeping me down".

[cdbd3rd]

...

But then I'm seen several that were completely undeserved. KK was known to get fed up, and simply infract everyone who posted in a thread he nuked, without reading individual posts, ect.

Wasn't such an issue before, but now that infracs are going to be held against peeps forever...


Whole-heartedly second this. (Nuff said.)

[PopeJual]

I'm really happy about this new policy myself. If people can't act mature and respectful towards other posters and even have to go as far as making more than 20 insults/personal attacks on other posters, despite repeated warnings, they definitely aren't the kind of people I'd want on a forum. Hopefully this will weed out those kind of posters or at least make them stop, so that new players won't have to be scared of posting anymore with all the flaming going on.

The bit that I have concern over is the fact that it's actually kind of hard to post steadily for 4 years without racking up 10 infractions. And if you have racked up 9 or more infractions over the previous "expire in 3 or 6 months" regime, then you will be immediately banned under this new rule for anything that Tarrant decides is naughty. Even if it wasn't naughty when you posted it.

Heck, make all infractions have a 1 year cooldown and I'd be fine. I'm hoping that DDO will be around for another 5 years, though. I think that it's reasonable to expect a player to get irritated and post a smartass response once in a blue moon. Once in a blue moon will get you banned in 5 years.

I'm 100% okay with asking people to be a little careful with what they post, but I'm not okay with asking someone to walk on eggshells because they are only 1 infraction away from perma-ban in a forum that has a moderator with an itchy trigger finger.

I'm also not okay with people getting infractions for responding to a troll when the troll itself doesn't get an infraction.

[cdbd3rd]

...
And I give you a +1 rep for knowing that the "enablers" at the start of WWII touted the trains running on time as a "positive" of Hitler's regime and that the gypsies were targeted as well as more publicized peoples. Also as the Roma expulsion in parts of Europe is current you were topical.

You forgot to mention the long-running line of inexpensive & reliable (back in the day) automobiles that were the brain-child of said oppressor. What an ironic dichotomy it created that so many hippies later lived in their VW busses. :eek:


...but we digress. :rolleyes:

[Grond]

you dont get warnings befor infractions most of the time
also if you dont like vets and experienced players to help you, thats fine. but im sure not every new players feels like that

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that vets helping you consisted of "making more than 20 insults/personal attacks on other posters, despite repeated warnings."

If that's the case, I'd wager that many new players do feel that way.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that vets helping you consisted of "making more than 20 insults/personal attacks on other posters, despite repeated warnings."

If that's the case, I'd wager that many new players do feel that way.

You can get infractions for other things. And the number for the 20 point suspension is 4 to 10, not 20. Each infraction is worth 2-5 points.

The new infraction is 10 in your lifetime for anything, once again, no idea where you come up with 20.

[Thrudh]

You haven't been to the alternate forum yet then. I suggest you take advantage of the fact that the link is currently visibly posted and go get yourself registered. I think you will be quite enlightened once you spend some time there. It's amazing what happens when two people can air out their disagreements with each other and work the hostility out of their systems. They find that they have far more in common than not. And then, well ... I don't want to spoil the surprise.

I'm guessing everyone currently at the alternative forum share the same disdain for Turbine, so I doubt there's a lot of disagreement... Just a bunch of people with the same mindset about how much they hate a company that has given them THOUSANDS of hours of fun....

I doubt I would be welcomed with open arms there with my alternative viewpoints, and my reputation as a Turbine fanboi....

But maybe I'm wrong... I'll check it out...

[Boromirs]

Couldn't they just have one spot in the forums, called "Free For All", where there is absolutely NO moderation whats so ever? You could be a giant *WARNING* sign next to the description to say it's a free-for-all and that you enter it at your own risk.

[Fenrisulven6]

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that vets helping you consisted of "making more than 20 insults/personal attacks on other posters, despite repeated warnings."

If that's the case, I'd wager that many new players do feel that way.

Dear __Grond___ ,

While participating on the Community Sites, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community. To this end you may not harass, defraud, threaten or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other members or Turbine staff. This includes, but is not limited to: Posting or commenting with the intent of provoking ("trolling") another user or users.

2 infraction points.

/thats how it happens. And good luck getting a mod to explain what in your quoted post just earned you an infraction. The rules are not enforced consistently or fairly. There is even one guy who trolls the forums and then runs to his mod buddy to "report abuse" whenever he got pushback.

Of course, most people just put up with this and moved on because the infractions would expire in a few months.

[sisterjinx]

I'm guessing everyone currently at the alternative forum share the same disdain for Turbine, so I doubt there's a lot of disagreement... Just a bunch of people with the same mindset about how much they hate a company that has given them THOUSANDS of hours of fun....

I doubt I would be welcomed with open arms there with my alternative viewpoints, and my reputation as a Turbine fanboi....

But maybe I'm wrong... I'll check it out...

No disdain for "TURBINE" here but I do have disdain for some of the happenings as of late and I have learned, simply by reading HERE how there is nothing I can write and feel safe to write it. Infractions are handed out for even voicing an opinion that is different than that of the current moderator (whomever that might be at the time). It has always been such and some worse than others. Hence the reason I so seldom post.

I don't even dare to give proper advice or joke with my friends in the forums here because I have seen the aftermath of others doing so. Even THIS post makes me nervous but I haven't slept and quite frankly just don't care this morning.

All I have to say is it will be sad to see so many people who I have come to enjoy reading their posts fall to the new "improved" ban hammer!

[Fenrisulven6]

And of course, all of you are racking up points by talking about rackng up points:

"We do not publicly discuss moderation decisions, or disciplinary actions taken against members, on the Community Sites and we ask that you do not either. Any threads or posts that mention infractions, bans, or thread/post deletions or modifications, etc. are subject to removal and may result in further disciplinary action."

[PopeJual]

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that vets helping you consisted of "making more than 20 insults/personal attacks on other posters, despite repeated warnings."

If that's the case, I'd wager that many new players do feel that way.

If people were allowed to actually say what they did/didn't get infractions for, then we could have a reasonable debate about this. I'll just say that I don't believe that "making 10 or more insults/personal attacks on other posters, despite repeated warnings" is what will trigger the ban for most of the people people banned under this policy.

Also, this policy will eliminate most vets who contribute to the forum over time even if they are completely reasonable people who only get snippy a couple of times each year. Under the old policy, someone who makes 1500+ posts per year can have a 1% mildly-naughty-post rate and still be a productive, functioning member of the forums. Under the new policy, someone can have a .2% mildly-naughty-post rate and be banned in just about 3 years.

How long has this game been running?

It doesn't take a massive hate-spewing, invective filled, profanity laden personal attack to pick up an infraction point.

[PopeJual]

And of course, all of you are racking up points by talking about rackng up points:

"We do not publicly discuss moderation decisions, or disciplinary actions taken against members, on the Community Sites and we ask that you do not either. Any threads or posts that mention infractions, bans, or thread/post deletions or modifications, etc. are subject to removal and may result in further disciplinary action."

If Turbine follows its own policy here in a manner consistant with how it has in prior months, then most of the people posting in this thread will be perma-banned on Monday morning. The fact that this thread hasn't been deleted yet amazes me since I know that at least one moderator has seen this thread over the weekend.

[cdbd3rd]

And of course, all of you are racking up points by talking about rackng up points:

"We do not publicly discuss moderation decisions, or disciplinary actions taken against members, on the Community Sites and we ask that you do not either. Any threads or posts that mention infractions, bans, or thread/post deletions or modifications, etc. are subject to removal and may result in further disciplinary action."


True - but a step in the right direction is that during the Reign of the Kobold I'd have gotten one for mentioning a VW bus in this thread. :o
At least they've gotten above that in that - even if those old issues are once again over our heads.


[Translated] What I mean is that the new guidelines should absolutely NOT be taking past events into consideration to the new infraction event limits, while giving a small kudo to the mods who have evolved past the 'full-thread-fraxxing' methodology of that one past mod.


OTOH - What I *do* support is the new tighter limitation on 'temp freebie troll accounts'. I do not see it as 'classism" as much as setting a ward against those who are making freebie accounts just for stirring carpfish on the forums. We see it nearly every weekend.


Lastly, to reiterate what's already been explained in previous pages, but seems to get lost quickly:
Infraction Points are NOT the same as Infractions.

Using the traffic ticket system again:

Ticket = not signalling lane change. (1 point on license) -- no one in trouble at this point --

Ticket = speeding (2 points on license) -- only fully F2P accounts get knocked at this 2-event level--

Ticket = DUI, with injury/death. (20 points to license, immediate revocation) --Prem & VIPs get knocked out for the 20-point limit, even at only 3 events. --



*as opposed to*

VIP driver, just hates using his signals.

9 Tickets = not signaling a lane change (1 point each to license) -- a couple temp warnings along the way saying to start using the d*** signal --
1 Ticket = not signalling a lane change (1 point to license) -- Prem/VIP drivers knocked out for the 10-event limit.

[Visty]

If Turbine follows its own policy here in a manner consistant with how it has in prior months, then most of the people posting in this thread will be perma-banned on Monday morning. The fact that this thread hasn't been deleted yet amazes me since I know that at least one moderator has seen this thread over the weekend.

mods dont work at weekends

[cdbd3rd]

mods dont work at weekends

They CAN roll through on a weekend, but tis uncommon.

*Looking at weekend-before-last's activity* (the HW thread)

[moorewr]

Thank you, Angelus_dead.

There's a Thelanis-specific (OK, Tharashk-specific :) ) alternate forum as well.

[Ulurjah]

Thank you, Angelus_dead.

There's a Thelanis-specific (OK, Tharashk-specific :) ) alternate forum as well.

Given how things are going ... I wonder if it wouldn't be wise to consolidate "alternate" places.

[Beladonna333]

Anyone have an infractionometer plugin that will work with this site? :P
I've been playing nearly a year, but am new to these forums, does anyone have a link to how to earn infraction points and a list of prizes please?
Oh yes, I have a friend named Guido, I met him while I was working for THQ in Germany, that is his real name.

[Grumpy]

Over the years I have been a mod on several forums and to be honest I've never liked any decision I've made as a mod disccused in open forums. I have always replied to any PM about my actions and have always tried to talk to a forum member before taking action to try and resolve problems. The fact this doesn't seem to happen here is a real concern especialy with the system in place for perma banning posters for infractions.

[Visty]

Anyone have an infractionometer plugin that will work with this site? :P
I've been playing nearly a year, but am new to these forums, does anyone have a link to how to earn infraction points and a list of prizes please?

read the link in the OP

[moorewr]

Given how things are going ... I wonder if it wouldn't be wise to consolidate "alternate" places.

Well, sure. However, House Tharashk is just about as old as DDO, so it would mostly be interested in people consolidating to HT.. I'm sure Strakeln feels the same way about his forums.

[Robi3.0]

If Turbine is going to make this change (they already did. :(). What needs to happen is that all infractions earned before the switch need to follow the old way of doing thing example, Johny forum troll has 16 infractions earned before the switch he then earn 4 more after the switch for a total of 20 this earns him a perma ban (he probably needed it anyhow.), but if Johny forum troll lays low long enough to his pre-switch point to expire then he would need to earn a full 10 "never-forget" infractions in order to be banned.

Doing it this way will prevent long time poster who have occasional made stupid choices from being unfairly punished, and now that we know infraction never go away we will mind our Ps and Qs better.

[Angelus_dead]

they definitely aren't the kind of people I'd want on a forum. Hopefully this will weed out those kind of posters or at least make them stop, so that new players won't have to be scared of posting anymore with all the flaming going on.
But you could get an infraction for that post right there!

A moderator could decide to punish you for any or all of these violations:
* Insults
* Provoking
* Not respecting the rights of others to participate in the community

Are you sure you want to defend a set of rules... when you can't even manage to defend them without breaking them?

[Magusrex777]

I can certainly understand why Turbine is doing this. I think some of you are spot on correct when you suggest this is targeted specifically at the long term players with high post counts that are also often critical of Turbine. If I owned this company I would want to put in rules to deter you from being so hostile and set in place a means to get rid of you. Some customers are not worth keeping and some people on these forums fit that bill IMHO.

It is not like they are trying to stop people from being critical. You can be extremely critical without getting a single infraction. There are number of absolutely brilliant people who post on these forums who are more than smart enough to say exactly what they wish without earning an infraction. It is simple, drop the name calling, stop being mean spirited, do not ask for Turbine employees to fired and you wont get an infraction. If you can't do it, I for have no problem with you being gone from the forums. I might start posting more on the forums if people like that are gone.

I had cut my posting down because it seemed like the same people complaining about the same things. The only good discussions were the ones we already had. Having them again seemed pointless. The times...they are a changin' This game will never be the way it was, just like every MMO ever made. They all change. I understand if you don't like it, I do. I have been in upper management for a long time, most people do not like and resist change.

Whatever company I have been with, we find ways to encourage the people resistant, vocal and opposed to the vision of the changes to leave or outright get of them. I think Turbine is doing that with some of you on the forum. I would bet you will complain about this change and I am guessing they are hopeful some of you will react in a negative way so that they can get rid of you immediately or you will just leave, I think that was their point.

Personally I hope you make peace with the situation, find a way to have fun with game and forums or move somewhere else where you do enjoy yourself, the game and its developers. Really, life is too short not to have fun. Even if you 9 infractions right now it would be simple never to get another one. I have never gotten one in any game I have played with 10,000s of posts over 14 years, while being critical of companies and getting in MANY disagreements with people on forums. All you have to do is abide by the rules, not hard at all.

[Ulurjah]

I can certainly understand why Turbine is doing this. I think some of you are spot on correct when you suggest this is targeted specifically at the long term players with high post counts that are also often critical of Turbine. If I owned this company I would want to put in rules to deter you from being so hostile and set in place a means to get rid of you. Some customers are not worth keeping and some people on these forums fit that bill IMHO.

It is not like they are trying to stop people from being critical. You can be extremely critical without getting a single infraction. There are number of absolutely brilliant people who post on these forums who are more than smart enough to say exactly what they wish without earning an infraction. It is simple, drop the name calling, stop being mean spirited, do not ask for Turbine employees to fired and you wont get an infraction. If you can't do it, I for have no problem with you being gone from the forums. I might start posting more on the forums if people like that are gone.

I had cut my posting down because it seemed like the same people complaining about the same things. The only good discussions were the ones we already had. Having them again seemed pointless. The times...they are a changin' This game will never be the way it was, just like every MMO ever made. They all change. I understand if you don't like it, I do. I have been in upper management for a long time, most people do not like and resist change.

Whatever company I have been with, we find ways to encourage the people resistant, vocal and opposed to the vision of the changes to leave or outright get of them. I think Turbine is doing that with some of you on the forum. I would bet you will complain about this change and I am guessing they are hopeful some of you will react in a negative way so that they can get rid of you immediately or you will just leave, I think that was their point.

Personally I hope you make peace with the situation, find a way to have fun with game and forums or move somewhere else where you do enjoy yourself, the game and its developers. Really, life is too short not to have fun. Even if you 9 infractions right now it would be simple never to get another one. I have never gotten one in any game I have played with 10,000s of posts over 14 years, while being critical of companies and getting in MANY disagreements with people on forums. All you have to do is abide by the rules, not hard at all.

And what about those of us who do not have gigantic post counts, and have both defended and criticized Turbine, depending on how we saw the situation. Who bring many other people into this game. I lost count of how many people I got playing this game somewhere north of 25.

You imply that anyone who disagrees with this policy is the kind of customer who is, to use your words, "not worth keeping" ... you're talking about me there, and my actions personally account for thousands (plural) of dollars of income to Turbine in the last year.

[PopeJual]

Personally I hope you make peace with the situation, find a way to have fun with game and forums or move somewhere else where you do enjoy yourself, the game and its developers. Really, life is too short not to have fun. Even if you 9 infractions right now it would be simple never to get another one. I have never gotten one in any game I have played with 10,000s of posts over 14 years, while being critical of companies and getting in MANY disagreements with people on forums. All you have to do is abide by the rules, not hard at all.

If I could reasonably predict what would actually get an infraction, then I'd have a much easier time following the rules.

And please don't say that it is easy to predict since I can't contradict that with specific examples without picking up more infraction points.


I'm pretty sure that I've actually followed the Turbine guidelines and that I haven't posted anything in this thread that would pick up infraction points. I still expect to be banned on Monday.

[Visty]

Some customers are not worth keeping and some people on these forums fit that bill IMHO.
infraction worthy:
1. While participating in the Forums, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community. To this end you may not harass, defraud, threaten or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other members or Turbine staff. This includes, but is not limited to:

* Name-calling or other insults


If you can't do it, I for have no problem with you being gone from the forums.
infraction worthy:
1. While participating in the Forums, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community. To this end you may not harass, defraud, threaten or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other members or Turbine staff. This includes, but is not limited to:

* Name-calling or other insults



All you have to do is abide by the rules, not hard at all.

well, you broke the rules at least 2 times in your post, so tell us, is it really not hard?

[Twerpp]

might have to start our own forums...simply to easy to get an infraction....

Hehe. Glad folks got fed up and started new forums. I can't wait for the game to tank and the private server to get up :)

[Pugsley]

If they're going to do this, forum ban should not force a game ban. I was never comfortable with that mechanic in the first place. Let in-game GMs ban players from the game, and forum mods ban players from the forums. They are very different jobs.

[CaseStringer]

But you could get an infraction for that post right there!

A moderator could decide to punish you for any or all of these violations:
* Insults
* Provoking
* Not respecting the rights of others to participate in the community

Are you sure you want to defend a set of rules... when you can't even manage to defend them without breaking them?

This is EXACTLY why I signed up for the Alt. Forums just this morn... I have no infractions & very little Rep, but i've been here since 2/28/06 and have had the privy to play with a vast majority of the most knowledgable peeps in DDO. (I play 67 pc's on 5 servers w/ 2 Guilds of me own!)
It has made me a better player to interact w/ the community and find out about so much about this game & it's systems from the Forums.
Sadly, I'll likely follow Mem's lead and just go somewhere else to voice my opnions w/o fear of the repercussion of being human.

I have not been very outspoken on this Forum aside from lurking and using it daily.
I loved the wit, humor & general help I have received from the community as a whole... I've also enjoyed the Trolls & the Weekend-Rants/TrainWrecks-of-Those-Who-Enjoy-Shooting-Themselves-In-The-Foot! (InfidelofHall comes to mind) before the Cube eats them on Monday.

I've loved being a part of HouseT forums for the last 2yrs. where we can just be ourselves & work it out or not...

Just awaiting my registration for the Vault to go through this morning.

I do not agree with, nor support the changes that have been made to the policy. (the HiWelcome thing really lead me down this path before I stumbled on this Gem-of-a-Move)
In the Dragonlance setting we're supposed to KILL the Draconians!

Hi Welcome to the new DDOForums!;)

---->CASE.

[Thrudh]

But you could get an infraction for that post right there!

A moderator could decide to punish you for any or all of these violations:
* Insults
* Provoking
* Not respecting the rights of others to participate in the community

Are you sure you want to defend a set of rules... when you can't even manage to defend them without breaking them?

Every disagreement post can be read as insults or provoking... But, even though moderating is a subjective task, I think the moderators do a fine job.
Ah, but where is the line?? It appears my subjective "line" is the same as the moderators, maybe that's why I don't see any problem...

I see myself as a mature reasonable adult... I see this as a game, I don't get worked up over it. I also am fairly polite by Internet standards... I say thank you and please in the game, and I treat people like I would like to be treated in game and on the forums.

I see the forums as an opportunity to give feedback to the devs, and to discuss changes with other players.

It's not hard to be mostly polite, answer questions from other players (and debate those answers), and discuss various changes to the game (current and upcoming) without getting infractions...

I still think not letting infractions expire is a bad idea. I still think that grandfathering in old infractions is a bad idea.

But it's not hard to have discussions without getting infractions. We probably would be better off if the people who can't learn to do that are gone.

[Thrudh]

I can certainly understand why Turbine is doing this. I think some of you are spot on correct when you suggest this is targeted specifically at the long term players with high post counts that are also often critical of Turbine. If I owned this company I would want to put in rules to deter you from being so hostile and set in place a means to get rid of you. Some customers are not worth keeping and some people on these forums fit that bill IMHO.

It is not like they are trying to stop people from being critical. You can be extremely critical without getting a single infraction. There are number of absolutely brilliant people who post on these forums who are more than smart enough to say exactly what they wish without earning an infraction. It is simple, drop the name calling, stop being mean spirited, do not ask for Turbine employees to fired and you wont get an infraction. If you can't do it, I for have no problem with you being gone from the forums. I might start posting more on the forums if people like that are gone.

I had cut my posting down because it seemed like the same people complaining about the same things. The only good discussions were the ones we already had. Having them again seemed pointless. The times...they are a changin' This game will never be the way it was, just like every MMO ever made. They all change. I understand if you don't like it, I do. I have been in upper management for a long time, most people do not like and resist change.

Whatever company I have been with, we find ways to encourage the people resistant, vocal and opposed to the vision of the changes to leave or outright get of them. I think Turbine is doing that with some of you on the forum. I would bet you will complain about this change and I am guessing they are hopeful some of you will react in a negative way so that they can get rid of you immediately or you will just leave, I think that was their point.

Personally I hope you make peace with the situation, find a way to have fun with game and forums or move somewhere else where you do enjoy yourself, the game and its developers. Really, life is too short not to have fun. Even if you 9 infractions right now it would be simple never to get another one. I have never gotten one in any game I have played with 10,000s of posts over 14 years, while being critical of companies and getting in MANY disagreements with people on forums. All you have to do is abide by the rules, not hard at all.

Good post, especially this part...


Really, life is too short not to have fun.

[Gunga]

I'm going to have to take nice classes.

I don't know how to be less of an *******.

I really tried.

[Magusrex777]

infraction worthy:
1. While participating in the Forums, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community. To this end you may not harass, defraud, threaten or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other members or Turbine staff. This includes, but is not limited to:

* Name-calling or other insults


infraction worthy:
1. While participating in the Forums, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community. To this end you may not harass, defraud, threaten or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other members or Turbine staff. This includes, but is not limited to:

* Name-calling or other insults




well, you broke the rules at least 2 times in your post, so tell us, is it really not hard?

According to Visty does not count. I am sure I am fine, I am content with letting the people responsible for moderation do so.

[Thrudh]

infraction worthy:
1. While participating in the Forums, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community. To this end you may not harass, defraud, threaten or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other members or Turbine staff. This includes, but is not limited to:

* Name-calling or other insults


infraction worthy:
1. While participating in the Forums, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community. To this end you may not harass, defraud, threaten or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other members or Turbine staff. This includes, but is not limited to:

* Name-calling or other insults




well, you broke the rules at least 2 times in your post, so tell us, is it really not hard?


You're nit-picking... The moderators do not follow the exact letter of the law, but the intent... The line is fairly well-placed... There are lots of lines in life... You'll do well to learn how to recognize them instead of always trying to cross them in spite.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Well I just looked and notice I do not have any infraction points. (Thanks A_D for 1. posting this information and 2. not reporting me for some of the nasty discussions we have had in the past!)

I do believe that infractions should wear off, even if it is in the 2-3 year ballpark.

[Visty]

You're nit-picking... The moderators do not follow the exact letter of the law, but the intent... The line is fairly well-placed... There are lots of lines in life... You'll do well to learn how to recognize them instead of always trying to cross them in spite.

im not nitpickingim appliying the rulesthe same way the mods did already oh and i disagree with your last tree posts

saying theforum is beter without some spezifik person is insulting tzhat persn

teling someone to gtfo is also against therulesz

[Steiner-Davion]

The lack of Publily pointing this Monumentous change out surely deserves few Infraction Points.

Its been fun, but operating under such conditions is oging to suck every last point of Costitution out of the Forums.

This is the Wounding of Puncturing of Forum Policies/posts.

[Magusrex777]

And what about those of us who do not have gigantic post counts, and have both defended and criticized Turbine, depending on how we saw the situation. Who bring many other people into this game. I lost count of how many people I got playing this game somewhere north of 25.

You imply that anyone who disagrees with this policy is the kind of customer who is, to use your words, "not worth keeping" ... you're talking about me there, and my actions personally account for thousands (plural) of dollars of income to Turbine in the last year.

I am not trying to imply that. To be clear. If I were in charge, the customers on these forums I would consider not worth keeping are those who are consistently negative AND hostile(name call or ask for Turbine employees to be fired). If that is you, then yes, regardless of how many people you claim to have gotten to spend money, I would rather have you gone, IF I were in charge of such things.

I know for certain that you could be surgically accurate in making criticisms or putting someone else in their place without getting an infraction, you are in fact smarter than that.

[Angelus_dead]

It's not hard to be mostly polite, answer questions from other players (and debate those answers), and discuss various changes to the game (current and upcoming) without getting infractions...
I'm sure dozens of people have examples that contradict that claim... but of course the rule against discussing enforcement actions prevents them from showing you.


We probably would be better off if the people who can't learn to do that are gone.
But that sentence is a violation of the rule against insults and could potentially earn you an infraction.

[Tolero]

I'm going to call this thread a wash (though I will be cleaning up the inappropriate posts and issuing warnings to those of you who are doing things that you know better - i.e. talking about your infractions).

Infractions were never made to expire to allow people to break a rule and then give them some time so they could break it again. "Don't call each other names" is a very straightforward rule, one that people repeatedly break. Expiration was intended to allow a user to think about what they'd done and curb their behavior rather than quickly flaming out. Instead, people have been using this leniency to volley the system and continue to break guidelines. The system has been adjusted as a result of this behavior.

There are literally thousands upon thousands of active users - long timers included - who have never received a warning, much less an infraction. It is very straight forward: follow the guidelines, a majority of which revolve around treating one another with respect. If a person can't do that, it wouldn't matter if the threshold was a million points - the result is going to be the same. You have to be able to follow the guidelines to continue posting here.