A couple of Trip and Sunder questions

[Azmich]

I've got some newb questions on Trip and Sunder. I have a lvl 6 Fighter and I can't seem to hardly ever trip or sunder any mobs and I'm trying to figure out what I might be doing wrong.

I have max str (for my lvl), I have 1 pt into that Fighter Tactics enhancement (think that is what it was) and a pt into the trip enhancement.

When I get in a fight I push the trip and sunder buttons, very rarely a mob is tripped and occationally I see the blue hexagon save thing like the mob might be saving against one or the other. But I don't know if I've ever sundered anything.

Are these 2 things that you have to invest more enhancement type points into to be effective? I can't seem to get the hang of how they work. Maybe I'm pushing the buttons at the wrong times? I don't know and could use some advice.

Thanks in advance for any help. :)

[Angelus_dead]

Sundering a creature will give a message in your combat log, and make "black smoke" poor off its body at the start time. Sundering enemies is hardly ever useful enough to bother with.

[Azmich]

Sundering a creature will give a message in your combat log, and make "black smoke" poor off its body at the start time. Sundering enemies is hardly ever useful enough to bother with.

Thank you this is good to know. Now I'm sure I've never managed to sunder a mob. ;) And I wont invest in any enhancements for it.

[JollySwagMan]

Sunder is quite situational, and not as effective as specific weapons that provide a similar effect. It's not worth investing the feat into Improved Sunder, and the enhancement points can probably be spent somewhere else. However before those weapons are available, you can use Sunder to help other party members to hit things, or to allow you more range to use Power Attack/non-proficient weapons.

Trip is awesome. If you can afford the build points then Improved Trip is even better (due more to the decreased cooldown rather than increased DC).

Although these attacks have DC's based upon your Strength score, to get most benefit out of them you want to use TWF / Monk fists, because timing the attack correctly will give you two Trips/Sunders/Stunning Blows etc.

[Azmich]

Thanks Jolly. I was wanting to get better at trip since I've seen how effective it is for other people. Guess I just need more practice at it.

[nibel]

Dont forget to first trip your attack need to hit. If on your trip/sunder the attack miss, there is no effect. This is important if you have the habit to run to the enemy and trip it, you have a -4 on attack rolls while moving. I like to activate the maneuvers on my 3rd attack on the chain (for a +5 bonus to hit).

Trip is better than sunder in a lot of ways. First, trip is a roll against strength or dexterity (plus size modifiers, +4 for each size difference), while sunder is a roll against fortitude. With very few exception, (mostly giants) a str mod is much lower than a fortitude save. Second, a tripped mob dont attack and have a -4 penalty to AC; while a sundered mob have the same -4 to AC, and still attack.

[Spoonwelder]

I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but it seems that if I try to trip a mob and they have to save and succeed they get ....hung up....for a few seconds. Not attacking and kind of, I don't know if this describes it properly, but searching for the goofball that tried to trip them. By the time they are done they are often dead. I noticed this most in Tangleroot, but have seen it elsewhere as well.

[MrWizard]

improved trip feat will add +4 to your attempt and the enemy will stay down longer
trip enhancements open up for more on your attempt
finally, you NEED to get a vertigo weapon. at your level you should have a minimum of +4, but you may find +6 if lucky

imp trip feat requires combat expertise feat though....

[Kaldahr]

Kudos for being a new (ok, well, not too new as you joined just a month after I did) player and using trip... there are far too many people who DON'T use trip despite it being a "free" move (disclaimer: I've never seen it interrupt / disrupt my attack chain). The group that I most often run with (well, more a few months ago) never trips anything even with me yelling at them in the same room. I've even been (gently) heckled in a pug or two for being the only one that trips things.

Always trip. When the timer comes off, trip again. When you land an ogre, a minotaur, a giant, an orthon, or whatever, flat on it's rear your life becomes easier, if just for those few seconds that the mob can't act. A mob that can't attack or cast, can't hurt you.

Yes, there are feats and enhancements that you can take to improve the trip but, even if you don't pursue the line, it's still absolutely worth it to try, even on that 8 STR sorc you just ginned up. It's free and the mob can always roll a one.

[Azmich]

Thanks everyone for all of your replies.

I hadn't even thought of the movement penalty of -4, I bet that is one of the reasons I'm not landing the trip much.

Also I probably wont be getting the Imp Trip if it needs Combat Exertise, but I will definately invest in the enhancements and look for a Vertigo weapon.

Thanks again for helping a newb fighter. :)

[Khellendros13]

Once you get Kensai 3 and keep Power Surge activated, you will be tripping Orthons (no vertigo weapon) and stunning Epic trash (+10 stunner) quite reliably.

[Ybbald]

Do you have the Kensai prestige class? +1 to combat DCs for each tier. You're lvl 6 so you can take the first tier

[Ukenburger]

Edit: Ignore this post. It was made in a groggy state of mind and used some misinterpretations of words and rules.

[Angelus_dead]

Trip's opposing check is a Strength or Dexterity check (whichever is higher). Much like skill checks, 1 is not auto-fail and 20 is not auto-succeed for ability checks. This means that your Trip can get to a point where it will never work on monsters or always work on monsters.
No, trip is not an ability check, not like a skill check, and 1s or 20s are automatic failures/successes.