Khopesh typo?

[FlyingTurtle]

I looked it up:
http://www.d20resources.com/arcana.d20.srd/equipment/melee.weapons.php

Hmmm Khopesh base stats: 1d8 19-20/x2

I'm thinking the x3 in DDO has got to be a typo. Thoughts?

P.S. Please don't nerf it, otherwise everyone will start running around with Picks and we'll all look like bloody gnomes.

[Visty]

im pretty sure that wai that we have x3 here, otherwise it wouldnt be like that for 4 years already even though the devs know that kopeshs are overpowered

[Bacab]

im pretty sure that wai that we have x3 here, otherwise it wouldnt be like that for 4 years already even though the devs know that kopeshs are overpowered

Yup

[toughguyjoe]

It's not a typo.

They changed the weapon to make it more desirable.

In PNP it is 1d8 19-20 x2 and gives a bonus when used to make trip attempts.

In DDO it is 1d8 19-20 x3

I keep it the DDO what when I run PNP games, but I make it require special training, as well as special crafting skills to craft one. I do not allow players to craft them themselves.

[Dilbon]

Should have been 1d8 18-20 x2 with glancing blows added in update 5. Basically a bigger scimitar, like dwarf axe is a bigger battle axe and bastard sword a bigger long sword.

[k1ngp1n]

Should have been 1d8 18-20 x2 with glancing blows added in update 5. Basically a bigger scimitar, like dwarf axe is a bigger battle axe and bastard sword a bigger long sword.

This.

[Aspenor]

It's not a typo.

They changed the weapon to make it more desirable.

In PNP it is 1d8 19-20 x2 and gives a bonus when used to make trip attempts.

In DDO it is 1d8 19-20 x3

I keep it the DDO what when I run PNP games, but I make it require special training, as well as special crafting skills to craft one. I do not allow players to craft them themselves.

It technically doesn't give a bonus, you are just allowed to make trip attempts with it. Unlike DDO, you can't make a trip attack with just any weapon in PnP. It's either unarmed, or it's a tripping weapon.

[IronClan]

This.

that does seem to be an elegant fix/nerf for Khopesh... you'd still have mobs of angry TWF Kopesh users demanding free race respecs and LR's "rabble rabble rabble!!!!"

[FlyingTurtle]

Fact is nobody takes Exotic Proficiency for Bastard Swords and Dwarves only use Dwarven Axes because they get it for free. So nerfing it like that would only make sense but then nobody would use it any more.

It's balanced now in terms of stats, I just find it weird that an archaic ancient Egyptian weapon form that is 3000-5000 years older than the other weapons in the game (e.g, rapiers) is the most advanced base weapon in the game.

[JustWinBaby]

I just find it weird that an archaic ancient Egyptian weapon form that is 3000-5000 years older than the other weapons in the game (e.g, rapiers) is the most advanced base weapon in the game.

And yet we still have no idea whatsoever how the pyramids were built :)

[dkyle]

Should have been 1d8 18-20 x2 with glancing blows added in update 5. Basically a bigger scimitar, like dwarf axe is a bigger battle axe and bastard sword a bigger long sword.

So basically, it should be useless and not worth a feat? I disagree. The devs got this one right. It costs a feat to use a Khopesh effectively, so it should be an increase of DPS similar to the other DPS feats like PA, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Imp Crit.

[Aspenor]

And yet we still have no idea whatsoever how the pyramids were built :)

I do. It was aliens.

[NeutronStar]

It was aliens.

No. I did.

[Aspenor]

No. I did.

Take me to your leader.

[JPDefault]

And yet we still have no idea whatsoever how the pyramids were built :)

Doesn't mean you can buy a new pyramid from the local real estate agency. But still you can buy a khopesh (http://www.brickforge.com/store/images/P/khopesh_transred_front.jpg)! :D

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

Fact is nobody takes Exotic Proficiency for Bastard Swords and Dwarves only use Dwarven Axes because they get it for free. So nerfing it like that would only make sense but then nobody would use it any more.


??? Not true. I know plenty of people that take BS, and the top 3 reasons are for flavor (because they don't like Khopesh), because they want the glancing blows now in U5 for their S&B tank, and because it does better base damage against non-crittable enemies.

As far as the dwarven axe, you are partially correct...Dwarves will also use it for TWF over other weapons because it does more base damage than a battleaxe, and because they can get +2 to hit and damage with axes through enhancements, making it more desireable than most other one handed weapons. That, and they look cool. (flavor again)

If they nerfed Khopeshs (which I would not mind seeing), I believe you would see that people would stop taking the exotic proficiency in that, because then, you'd basically be looking at spending a feat just to get a D8 instead of a D6 scimitar...definitely not worth a feat IMO.

[Emili]

It technically doesn't give a bonus, you are just allowed to make trip attempts with it. Unlike DDO, you can't make a trip attack with just any weapon in PnP. It's either unarmed, or it's a tripping weapon.

this


Fact is nobody takes Exotic Proficiency for Bastard Swords and Dwarves only use Dwarven Axes because they get it for free. So nerfing it like that would only make sense but then nobody would use it any more.

It's balanced now in terms of stats, I just find it weird that an archaic ancient Egyptian weapon form that is 3000-5000 years older than the other weapons in the game (e.g, rapiers) is the most advanced base weapon in the game.

and they modernized the weapon to be more like a Kopis then took it to more heights...


??? Not true. I know plenty of people that take BS, and the top 3 reasons are for flavor (because they don't like Khopesh), because they want the glancing blows now in U5 for their S&B tank, and because it does better base damage against non-crittable enemies.

As far as the dwarven axe, you are partially correct...Dwarves will also use it for TWF over other weapons because it does more base damage than a battleaxe, and because they can get +2 to hit and damage with axes through enhancements, making it more desireable than most other one handed weapons. That, and they look cool. (flavor again)

If they nerfed Khopeshs (which I would not mind seeing), I believe you would see that people would stop taking the exotic proficiency in that, because then, you'd basically be looking at spending a feat just to get a D8 instead of a D6 scimitar...definitely not worth a feat IMO.

Not neccessarily that...

unlike other weapons in DDO the fact it costs a feat would deal both
1. A blow to human melee outside the fighter classes
2. the balance of single handed weapons towards DPS due to #1

The Kopesh being an exotic and taking a feat slot as such is balancing ... The fact that their are no racial benefits towards it outside halfling gile or wf PA and human extra feat it evens up melee between the races...

Dwaves = axes of every type, elves = rapiers, longswords scimi's falchions... WF = PA, Halfling = Gile and Human (extra feat) = khopesh - keeps the races DPS more in tune.


that does seem to be an elegant fix/nerf for Khopesh... you'd still have mobs of angry TWF Kopesh users demanding free race respecs and LR's "rabble rabble rabble!!!!"
I know I would... and not for the feat respec... but for the 12 dual tier GS Khopeshes I had made... Do you know how many shroud ingredients that is? 60+ large scales alone ... and how much long it would take me to replace every single one of those with another GS couterpart weapon?

[Duke-H-]

I always thought they went about it the wrong way making the crit profile that powerful.

I would like to see it be 1d8 19-20x2 with a +x bonus to trip attempts (stacking with vertigo).

This would move it towards the PnP flavour and still make it a nice weapon for fighters who have feats to spare and want good DC on their trips.

What it wouldn't do is make it the "end-all dps weapon everyone must have or be a gimp". Ofcourse, nerfing khopesh would create an outcry like no other, so probably won't happen.

[Emili]

I always thought they went about it the wrong way making the crit profile that powerful.

I would like to see it be 1d8 19-20x2 with a +x bonus to trip attempts (stacking with vertigo).

This would move it towards the PnP flavour and still make it a nice weapon for fighters who have feats to spare and want good DC on their trips.

What it wouldn't do is make it the "end-all dps weapon everyone must have or be a gimp". Ofcourse, nerfing khopesh would create an outcry like no other, so probably won't happen.

First off... a kensai trips with any weapon easily, fighters and really any strength based melee DC to trip is already THAT **** GOOD without vertigos...

Second... It's not the end all be all weapon, An eSoS is by far more power in WF hands then a human, a GS Falchion in elven hands outdoes a human by far, A Dwarf with Dwarf Axe outdoes a human with a bastard sword by far... shall we go on?

Reality ... A GS BS yeilds better against heavy fort, so does a GS D-Axe than a GS Khopesh ... across the board what people crunch in numbers on forum is not a mirror of realities...

[IronClan]

And yet we still have no idea whatsoever how the pyramids were built :)

Not to derail but this isn't true... Their are "hobbyist" Pyramid enthusiasts who have duplicated everything down to tool making and labor techniques, organizational structures and quarrying that have proven to be able to handle the basic block by block construction in a similar time frame with similar man power numbers.

While they are amazing feats of mass slave labor, earthen ramps, log rollers and large levers, they haven't been "unexplained" for decades... And they certainly aren't "no idea whatsoever"...

[NeutronStar]

If they nerfed Khopeshs (which I would not mind seeing), I believe you would see that people would stop taking the exotic proficiency in that, because then, you'd basically be looking at spending a feat just to get a D8 instead of a D6 scimitar...definitely not worth a feat IMO.

Some people do that with Bastardswords. 1d10 for Bastardswords vs 1d8 for Longswords


Here's an interesting piece of trivia for you guys: Did you know the Khopesh in Pathfinder has the exact same stats as the Khopesh in DDO? :eek:

[Dilbon]

So basically, it should be useless and not worth a feat? I disagree. The devs got this one right. It costs a feat to use a Khopesh effectively, so it should be an increase of DPS similar to the other DPS feats like PA, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Imp Crit.

Not useless, just on par with other 1h weapons. If everyone uses a khopesh, it certainly is not balanced.

[KillEveryone]

Not useless, just on par with other 1h weapons. If everyone uses a khopesh, it certainly is not balanced.

Then everyone will move on to the next weapon that is "overpowered" and people will start calling for nerfs.

[IronClan]

2 higher range of damage is pretty worthy of a feat... look at what most feats do, even ignoring the borken (broken/borked) useless ones. Saves feats generally give you +2 to one save, focus feats give +1 to hit or spell DC... So a feat that gets Bastard Sword, which is just a ramped up Long Sword is not out of line with many other feats... Except... Of course... The existence of Khopesh...

[Emili]

Some people do that with Bastardswords. 1d10 for Bastardswords vs 1d8 for Longswords


Here's an interesting piece of trivia for you guys: Did you know the Khopesh in Pathfinder has the exact same stats as the Khopesh in DDO? :eek:

... and not many even think about what the GS vs GS versions entails...

i.e.


GS Dwarf axe = 2d8 20x3
GS Bastard Sword = 2d8 19/20x2
GS Khopesh = 1d10 19/20x3


Result... being GS Khopesh improvement is but 1 over it's normal weapon type whereas the other two exotic weapons are 4 more damage over it's normal weapon type among exotic weapons before adding in any of the shroud crafting dice damages...

Thus GS Khopesh actually is the least imporved version of a GS weapon over it's normal weapon types among the exotic weapons. Both Bastard sword and D-axe gain a
63% increase just for being GS whereas the Khopesh only 21%.

Also for consideration... every Greatsword, Falchion, Greataxe, Scimitar and rapier fall under racial benefits also... Yielding higher curve for certain racial preferences i.e Greataxe 3d6 20x3 axe attack a 61% increase in GS form and if you were a dwarf adding +2 axe attack yeilding such is 29% more than that of a non-axe attack race.

If you modified the kopesh to PnP form... the new weapon of choice would be D-Axe, Scimitar, Rapier, Falchion, Greataxe or Greatsword ... all of which favored by certain races already. i.e. Scimitar - human dps using such weapon gains 28% from upgrading to a GS Scimitar (before adding shroud ingreds) yet an elf + GS scimitar is 85% over the human holding a non-GS scimitar.

In summary... it would be a very hard decision to be a dwarf and pick Khopesh over axe, likewise to be elf and pick khopesh over scimitar or rapier... the other races such as WF tend to look at other aspects PA and cunning shoring up DPS and the exotic weapon feat just as step... the only race takes major benefit is the human with the extra feat to burn... and even then is not so overpowered as you may think compared to other races and their racial preferences.

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

Some people do that with Bastardswords. 1d10 for Bastardswords vs 1d8 for Longswords

Aye, that's true, but I DID say that it was my opinion...and in my opinion, I would not spend a feat on BS anyway...rather be a Dorf and get DwAxe for free! :D

Besides, at least with Bastard Swords, you also get Glancing Blows now, making them much more damaging overall than a longsword and giving the extra feat more worth. To equal that, they would have to nerf Khopesh to a x2 crit AND add glancing blows.

[Lithic]

Not to derail but this isn't true... Their are "hobbyist" Pyramid enthusiasts who have duplicated everything down to tool making and labor techniques, organizational structures and quarrying that have proven to be able to handle the basic block by block construction in a similar time frame with similar man power numbers.

While they are amazing feats of mass slave labor, earthen ramps, log rollers and large levers, they haven't been "unexplained" for decades... And they certainly aren't "no idea whatsoever"...

We also know WHY they were built. They are landing platforms for Ha'Tak class Goa'uld vessels.

[Angelus_dead]

So basically, it should be useless and not worth a feat? I disagree. The devs got this one right.
It would have been possible to khopesh more damaging than other one-handed weapons, but not as powerful as it is now.

For example, 1d8 19/x2 20/x3, which Improved Crit brings to 17-18/x2 19-20/x3. That would be halfway between a regular sword and DDO's current khopesh.

[Emili]

Aye, that's true, but I DID say that it was my opinion...and in my opinion, I would not spend a feat on BS anyway...rather be a Dorf and get DwAxe for free! :D

Besides, at least with Bastard Swords, you also get Glancing Blows now, making them much more damaging overall than a longsword and giving the extra feat more worth. To equal that, they would have to nerf Khopesh to a x2 crit AND add glancing blows.
Obviously dwarf is the better suited melee by getting not only D-axe for free (all axes enhanced) rather than wasting a feat... If you looked at D-axes in game they are far superior than bastard sword in such way.

All you would serve to do by changing khopesh is place another weapon in it's place and most likely among slashing one handers it would be the D-axe followed closely by the scimitar/rapier and all other weapons would be behind.

[Duke-H-]

First off... a kensai trips with any weapon easily, fighters and really any strength based melee DC to trip is already THAT **** GOOD without vertigos...

I did not say they don't trip easily already, i have a kensai myself, aswell as barbarians and paladins which all use trip (who doesn't).

Second... It's not the end all be all weapon, An eSoS is by far more power in WF hands then a human, a GS Falchion in elven hands outdoes a human by far, A Dwarf with Dwarf Axe outdoes a human with a bastard sword by far... shall we go on?
Ofcourse there are exceptions to the rule. But fact is, it is a very powerful weapon.


Reality ... A GS BS yeilds better against heavy fort, so does a GS D-Axe than a GS Khopesh ... across the board what people crunch in numbers on forum is not a mirror of realities...

Heavy fort is not that common.


I stand by my opinion that the khopesh should be changed, but both I and you know that it won't happen. So it is really a moot point to discuss, I just wanted to show what i think would be a neat implementation.

[SisAmethyst]

I dunno but I guess the reason why Khopeshes are '1d8 19-20/x3' is at it is a more brutal weapon than most of its kind. You may indeed try to hook an enemies leg to attempt to trip but its more the point that the crescent-shaped curve blade deal at least minor wounds whenever it hits. In the 4th Edition those kind of weapons (Khopesh, Kukri, ...) have a property named 'brutal'.

Brutal weapon property: When rolling a brutal weapon's damage, reroll any die that displays a value equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon's brutal value, and then use the new value.

As the definition of brutal is a bit awkward and complicated in its usage it was probably easier to just increase the crit. multiplicator. I know however that DDO is based on the 3.5 Edition, but maybe one influence to make it at the time they implemented it a bit more attractive to take the extra feat. Also at the time they implemented that there was no Greensteel and probably no one figured out at that time, how much influence that small difference of x3 instead 2x would have later on. But to nerf now all the players that crafted their GS Kophesh would bring a big outcry, so they keep it as it is.

Anyway, I would like to here the real story why it went this way in the game from one of the Devs ;)

[dameron]

A very nice explanation of why the khopesh is such a kick ass weapon:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OukyEkqV434

[Modinator0]

I agree that they kinda went the wrong direction with exotics.... they should add new exotic features that you don't get on other weapons, not just increase base damage or crit :\

[Dilbon]

But nothing is more badass than the bastard sword.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIsec-MTGwU

[Khurse]

The Kopesh being an exotic and taking a feat slot as such is balancing ... The fact that their are no racial benefits towards it outside halfling gile or wf PA and human extra feat it evens up melee between the races...





I'd argue that if something requires a feat slot as "balance" and so many builds (even feat starved ones) still manage to make sure they fit it in, it's not "balanced"
The Khopesh is better than it should be, it should have a bonus to trip (why it doesn't, given that we do have weapons with a bonus I don't know)

All that being said, it's still never,ever, going to revert to it's proper stats. It's a fight Turbine will never pick.

As has been mentioned, something has to be the top weapon DPS wise, may as well make it a Khopesh.