Adjusting Wall of Fire

[CrescentCalling_5]

I've seen threads complaining about it but I can't find anyone who wants to adjust it. So here's my two cents.

What Wall of Fire is now:

Wall of Fire
Evocation
Sor/Wiz 4
V, S, M
Medium Range (100 ft. +10/level
Target Positional (it doesn't break...)
60 second Duration
No Saving Throw
SR Applies
60 second cooldown

Creates a wall of flames, damaging enemies running into it.

The wall deals 2d4 points of fire damage to creatures within 10 feet and 1d4 points of fire damage to those past 10 feet but within 20 feet. The wall deals this damage when it appears and on your turn each round to all creatures in the area. In addition, the wall deals 2d6 points of fire damage +1 point of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20) to any creature passing through it. The wall deals double damage to undead creatures.

If you evoke the wall so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall.


**In other words total overpower compared to other level 4 spells. It needs to either be altered or moved to a higher spell slot (and given a saving throw)

Here's what Wall of Fire "Should" be...

Wall of Fire
Evocation
Sor/Wiz 4 (Druid and Fire domains 5, if we ever get em :/)
V, S, M
1 round casting time
Medium Range (100 ft. +10/level)
Effect: a 20 ft. long sheet of flames
Duration: 1 round per level (maximum of 10 rounds)
Cooldown 60 seconds
Reflex Save negates

Simple description (without all the fancy text):
Inflicts 2d6 points of fire damage +1 per caster level to any creatures passing through the wall, Reflex Save for half damage.
If any area cold spell of the 4th level or higher is cast at the wall (ie. Cone of Cold) the wall is dispelled instantly.
The wall inflicts damage each round to enemies inside.


It's an MMORPG, setting it up the same as PnP is a poor choice with spells like this. We don't need double damage to undead! It's an arcane spell, not holy magic. We definately don't need the 2d4 points of damage to all enemeis within 10 ft. It's just not viable for the setting it's in.

[Asketes]

I think i'd get burnt if I were within 10 feet from the sun!


:D :D :D

[syrovi1967]

I dunno about this... Playing my 1st ever Wizard (level 9 now) and I am really enjoying the spell as it is. It's been a bit of a journey from level one to where I am now. Up to level 6/7 I really had to take a back seat and watch the other guys kill the mobs. Now at last I feel I am contributing...

Please do not change this yet...;)

[itsameabob]

Also how do you dodge a wall of magical fire?

[Asketes]

Also how do you dodge a wall of magical fire?


same way you dodge lava, oh wait ;)

[jcTharin]

i thought that it was reflex for half damage.

shows what i know about casters

[Jay203]

same way you dodge lava, oh wait ;)

no.... same way you dodge air
oh wait.... >_>;;;;

[lazylaz]

Why wouldn't we want double damage to undead? Try running Delera's or the undead Desert quests or any Necro without it and trying to get conquest by melee. Obviously it can be done, but its painful as hell.

[Maxallu]

I've seen threads complaining about it but I can't find anyone who wants to adjust it. So here's my two cents.

What Wall of Fire is now:

Wall of Fire
Evocation
Sor/Wiz 4
V, S, M
Medium Range (100 ft. +10/level
Target Positional (it doesn't break...)
60 second Duration
No Saving Throw
SR Applies
60 second cooldown

Creates a wall of flames, damaging enemies running into it.

The wall deals 2d4 points of fire damage to creatures within 10 feet and 1d4 points of fire damage to those past 10 feet but within 20 feet. The wall deals this damage when it appears and on your turn each round to all creatures in the area. In addition, the wall deals 2d6 points of fire damage +1 point of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20) to any creature passing through it. The wall deals double damage to undead creatures.

If you evoke the wall so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall.


**In other words total overpower compared to other level 4 spells. It needs to either be altered or moved to a higher spell slot (and given a saving throw)

Here's what Wall of Fire "Should" be...

Wall of Fire
Evocation
Sor/Wiz 4 (Druid and Fire domains 5, if we ever get em :/)
V, S, M
1 round casting time
Medium Range (100 ft. +10/level)
Effect: a 20 ft. long sheet of flames
Duration: 1 round per level (maximum of 10 rounds)
Cooldown 60 seconds
Reflex Save negates

Simple description (without all the fancy text):
Inflicts 2d6 points of fire damage +1 per caster level to any creatures passing through the wall, Reflex Save negates
If any area cold spell of the 4th level or higher is cast at the wall (ie. Cone of Cold) the wall is dispelled instantly.
The wall inflicts damage each round to enemies inside.


It's an MMORPG, setting it up the same as PnP is a poor choice with spells like this. We don't need double damage to undead! It's an arcane spell, not holy magic. We definately don't need the 2d4 points of damage to all enemeis within 10 ft. It's just not viable for the setting it's in.

Boo this man!

How would you save against this?
http://www.dandossantos.com/gallery/tradingcards/full_wall_of_fire.jpg

[Vordax]

Hmm.. I think someone just hit the mid levels...

Vordax

[jcTharin]

the thing about wall of fire is that in PnP it was just that, a wall. it was meant to just be a barrier. enemies wouldn't just stand in it.

here they do.

[Maxallu]

No one is complaining that FW is op in the battlefield.

[Traeon]

Firewall is very strong in mid-levels, especially against undead, but relatively weak later on. It also happens to be the only spell that an arcane can provide reasonably sp effective damage with. I honestly think we need more spells like it (of different elemental damage) so that casters can actually provide relatively sustainable dps to their party in end-game.

[JPDefault]

I don't think Wall of Fire needs a saving throw. It doesn't in D&D, it doesn't in DDO.

That said, I think the spell description is wrong: enemies next to the wall still take the same amount of damage as if they were passing through it.
Also, the damage dice seem to be loaded (something like 1d6+6+1/level).
I find it unfair :mad:

[Angelus_dead]

My preferred way to nerf Wall of Fire:
1. Smarter mobs, who won't always jump around in it like that.
1b. Allow Dispel Magic to remove Wall of Fire, and teach some mobs to do that.
2. Consistent stacking rules.
3. Buff nearly every non-lingering hitpoint-damage spell with a percentage reduction in spellpoint costs.

That third one is the biggy, as it means really buffing the total output of all of a mage's other damage. But if you step back and look at the game design without being distracted by fidelity to the D&D books, it really makes no sense that a long-lasting thing like Wall of Fire should cost the same spellpoints as something that's over in half a second.

Does it seem right that 30 seconds of Wall of Fire costs the same as one blast of Force Missiles, whose cooldown is over in 3 seconds?
Does it seem right that 60 seconds of Wall of Fire costs the same as one shot of Disintegrate, whose cooldown ends in 4 seconds?

Of course that doesn't make sense. So what could be done (and I won't try and specify how) is adjust things to normalize the spell's effective duration with it's cost. Giving non-lingering damage spells a flat 50% reduction to total spellpoints would be a fine starting point.

[Visty]

I don't think Wall of Fire needs a saving throw. It doesn't in D&D, it doesn't in DDO.

That said, I think the spell description is wrong: enemies next to the wall still take the same amount of damage as if they were passing through it.
Also, the damage dice seem to be loaded (something like 1d6+6+1/level).
I find it unfair :mad:

loaded dice are 1d3+3, thats what ddo uses for 1d6
so its 2d3+6+1/lvl (though you were close ;) )

[woundweaver]

i've Seen Threads Complaining About It But I Can't Find Anyone Who Wants To Adjust It. So Here's My Two Cents.

What Wall Of Fire Is Now:

wall Of Fire
Evocation
Sor/wiz 4
V, S, M
Medium Range (100 Ft. +10/level
Target Positional (it Doesn't Break...)
60 Second Duration
No Saving Throw
Sr Applies
60 Second Cooldown

Creates A Wall Of Flames, Damaging Enemies Running Into It.

The Wall Deals 2d4 Points Of Fire Damage To Creatures Within 10 Feet And 1d4 Points Of Fire Damage To Those Past 10 Feet But Within 20 Feet. The Wall Deals This Damage When It Appears And On Your Turn Each Round To All Creatures In The Area. In Addition, The Wall Deals 2d6 Points Of Fire Damage +1 Point Of Fire Damage Per Caster Level (maximum +20) To Any Creature Passing Through It. The Wall Deals Double Damage To Undead Creatures.

If You Evoke The Wall So That It Appears Where Creatures Are, Each Creature Takes Damage As If Passing Through The Wall.


**in Other Words Total Overpower Compared To Other Level 4 Spells. It Needs To Either Be Altered Or Moved To A Higher Spell Slot (and Given A Saving Throw)

Here's What Wall Of Fire "should" Be...

wall Of Fire
Evocation
Sor/wiz 4 (druid And Fire Domains 5, If We Ever Get Em :/)
V, S, M
1 Round Casting Time
Medium Range (100 Ft. +10/level)
Effect: A 20 Ft. Long Sheet Of Flames
Duration: 1 Round Per Level (maximum Of 10 Rounds)
Cooldown 60 Seconds
Reflex Save Negates

Simple Description (without All The Fancy Text):
Inflicts 2d6 Points Of Fire Damage +1 Per Caster Level To Any Creatures Passing Through The Wall, Reflex Save Negates
If Any Area Cold Spell Of The 4th Level Or Higher Is Cast At The Wall (ie. Cone Of Cold) The Wall Is Dispelled Instantly.
The Wall Inflicts Damage Each Round To Enemies Inside.


It's An Mmorpg, Setting It Up The Same As Pnp Is A Poor Choice With Spells Like This. We Don't Need Double Damage To Undead! It's An Arcane Spell, Not Holy Magic. We Definately Don't Need The 2d4 Points Of Damage To All Enemeis Within 10 Ft. It's Just Not Viable For The Setting It's In.

no
if it aint broke, dont fix it :)
we dont need any more bugs!!


edit: lately, why are most nerf suggestions coming from people with a 2010 join date?? just an observation.....

[Memnir]

/No to this idea.

[Phidius]

Boo this man!

How would you save against this?
http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr155/preciouswf/full_wall_of_fire.jpg

Fixed that for you...

[oweieie]

It's an MMORPG, setting it up the same as PnP is a poor choice with spells like this. We don't need double damage to undead! It's an arcane spell, not holy magic. We definately don't need the 2d4 points of damage to all enemeis within 10 ft. It's just not viable for the setting it's in.

You're right it's not terribly viable which is why mass hold or wail of the banshee is what gets used and not wall of fire. It needs to be made more powerful in order to compete with the massive damage melee are putting out.

[Memnir]

Fixed that for you...+Rep. :D

[Scraap]

My preferred way to nerf Wall of Fire:
3. Buff nearly every non-lingering hitpoint-damage spell with a percentage reduction in spellpoint costs.

That third one is the biggy, as it means really buffing the total output of all of a mage's other damage. But if you step back and look at the game design without being distracted by fidelity to the D&D books, it really makes no sense that a long-lasting thing like Wall of Fire should cost the same spellpoints as something that's over in half a second.

Does it seem right that 30 seconds of Wall of Fire costs the same as one blast of Force Missiles, whose cooldown is over in 3 seconds?
Does it seem right that 60 seconds of Wall of Fire costs the same as one shot of Disintegrate, whose cooldown ends in 4 seconds?

Of course that doesn't make sense. So what could be done (and I won't try and specify how) is adjust things to normalize the spell's effective duration with it's cost. Giving non-lingering damage spells a flat 50% reduction to total spellpoints would be a fine starting point.

Well, if I were feeling particularly sadistic, I'd say since PnP requires concentration to keep it up, it should drain sp throughout the duration of the spell. Unfortunately, where would that leave the balance of power between wiz and sorc then?

[Chai]

Save =/= dodging it for no damage or moving completely out of the way. A save for half damage could be getting a shield up in time so your face doesnt take the brunt of the damage. What constitutes a save depends on the spell itself. I do not favor a save for firewall. Its been in the game too long and there are too many people specced for it. This would be like nerfing khopesh right back down to x2 crit to cover up a 5 year old mistake in house rules after all this time. :p

If we are getting a save for firewall, please also implement Touch AC. Theres no way I should have equal chance of getting hit with ray spells on a rogue or monk as I do on a plate class, when the spell just needs to touch to land. Beholders wouldnt have a chance. I would dodge that sheist like the matrix, complete with 6 million dollar man sound effects, and black belt jones theme music.

[Angelus_dead]

Well, if I were feeling particularly sadistic, I'd say since PnP requires concentration to keep it up, it should drain sp throughout the duration of the spell.
Yes, to make Wall of Fire require continual mana from the caster as long as it lasts would be a natural choice a game designer would be likely to take, if he wasn't trying to replicate D&D 3.5 rules. He might even require the caster to stand still and loop through a casting animation.

However, the D&D rules have Wall of Fire continue after you stop concentrating for 1 round per level, which means it would last about a minute, just as it does in DDO now.

[Pugsley]

Just program AI to avoid it if possible. But maybe mindless undead aren't smart enough, I don't know.

Fire Wall needs a nerf though, that's for sure. When a spell is that good, it limits choice for casters because everything else is so much worse.

[Phidius]

Just program AI to avoid it if possible. But maybe mindless undead aren't smart enough, I don't know.

Fire Wall needs a nerf though, that's for sure. When a spell is that good, it limits choice for casters because everything else is so much worse.

Hey, I've got a better idea - why not make the other spells worth the price of the scroll to scribe it in the first place?

[Chai]

Just program AI to avoid it if possible. But maybe mindless undead aren't smart enough, I don't know.

Fire Wall needs a nerf though, that's for sure. When a spell is that good, it limits choice for casters because everything else is so much worse.

This is true, until you get to the point where everything is just arbitrarily immune to 85% of those choices in the first place.

Then its even more true.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Firewall is fine.

Monsters' desire for self immolation is not.

[nanobot1994]

Ok, sure, nerf/remove firewall. Now, you can tell us how we can contribute through the whole quest without being out of SP in the first few fight, or pew-pew'ing the mobs for 1/10 the melee DPS. Yeah, its over-powered when you get it, kills everything in 2 hits, but try it in vale (my highest level), it isnt even close to being over-powered here. Im sure it just continues to being less and less useful later on.

Also, whats with people thinking casters are over powered? Yeah, they do lots of damage, thats only as long as we have a blue bar, once that blue bar runs out, were just useless bystanders in fancy clothes/metal discs :D. In no way should a caster who can summon a large WALL OF FIRE be equal to the guy who hits stuff with a metal stick

[Pugsley]

Its been in the game too long and there are too many people specced for it. This would be like nerfing khopesh right back down to x2 crit to cover up a 5 year old mistake in house rules after all this time. :p



I don't think the length of time that things have been a certain way matters. Especially since you can respec feats, enhancements and spells.

Years ago, in Everquest, any low level player could get high level buffs and be much stronger than they should be. In fact, it was considered the normal way to play. High levels stood in public areas casting these buffs for tips (sometimes "tips preferred but not required!").

It was like this for years. Then, one day, a patch came down. It said something to the effect of, "We know people have gotten used to playing the game a certain way, but we feel this will be better in the long run." Boom. Level restrictions on buffs. And you know what? It was just fine. People just went back to playing appropriately.

[Akrilus]

I've seen threads complaining about it but I can't find anyone who wants to adjust it. So here's my two cents.

What Wall of Fire is now:

Wall of Fire
Evocation
Sor/Wiz 4
V, S, M
Medium Range (100 ft. +10/level
Target Positional (it doesn't break...)
60 second Duration
No Saving Throw
SR Applies
60 second cooldown

Creates a wall of flames, damaging enemies running into it.

The wall deals 2d4 points of fire damage to creatures within 10 feet and 1d4 points of fire damage to those past 10 feet but within 20 feet. The wall deals this damage when it appears and on your turn each round to all creatures in the area. In addition, the wall deals 2d6 points of fire damage +1 point of fire damage per caster level (maximum +20) to any creature passing through it. The wall deals double damage to undead creatures.

If you evoke the wall so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall.


**In other words total overpower compared to other level 4 spells. It needs to either be altered or moved to a higher spell slot (and given a saving throw)

Here's what Wall of Fire "Should" be...

Wall of Fire
Evocation
Sor/Wiz 4 (Druid and Fire domains 5, if we ever get em :/)
V, S, M
1 round casting time
Medium Range (100 ft. +10/level)
Effect: a 20 ft. long sheet of flames
Duration: 1 round per level (maximum of 10 rounds)
Cooldown 60 seconds
Reflex Save negates

Simple description (without all the fancy text):
Inflicts 2d6 points of fire damage +1 per caster level to any creatures passing through the wall, Reflex Save negates
If any area cold spell of the 4th level or higher is cast at the wall (ie. Cone of Cold) the wall is dispelled instantly.
The wall inflicts damage each round to enemies inside.


It's an MMORPG, setting it up the same as PnP is a poor choice with spells like this. We don't need double damage to undead! It's an arcane spell, not holy magic. We definately don't need the 2d4 points of damage to all enemeis within 10 ft. It's just not viable for the setting it's in.

check


Shouldnt it be /roll 1 to 100 now?

after all the ydx+z notation has been superseeded

failed

(Turbine actually just mated you 3 moves ago)

[melkor1702]

Fixed that for you...

+1 for this.

Got two alternatives.

Nerf Firewall and nerf Melee damage because it's only about 6 or 7 levels that firewall out does melee damage.

or better yet

Nerf Kill counts - if we get rid of the kill counts then mid level melees won't get upset when from level 7 - 14 the arcane casters get most of the kills.

[Docta_PoPo]

agreed did ghandalf even come close to beating legolas or gimli in kill counts before he tred? i think not... firewall should be a tr only spell!

[Schwarzie]

Well, if I were feeling particularly sadistic, I'd say since PnP requires concentration to keep it up, it should drain sp throughout the duration of the spell. Unfortunately, where would that leave the balance of power between wiz and sorc then?
Balance of Power between Wizard and Sorcerer isnt given for quite some time now. Design decisions made during the Max lv10 era are biting back now, like the double SP from Items or the faster casting.

To make Wizards more viable the game needs FAR more usefull spells. And not only FW in lv4 and later then Cone of Cold and Polar Ray.


agreed did ghandalf even come close to beating legolas or gimli in kill counts before he tred? i think not... firewall should be a tr only spell!
Rofl!

@OP
I think the most important change of your list would be the advanced Mob AI. This one step would fix most of the Problem firewall causes right now.

But of course then the other damage dealing spells would need a huge buff because right now Caster DPS in late game is rather poor.

[Scraap]

but try it in vale (my highest level), it isnt even close to being over-powered here. Im sure it just continues to being less and less useful later on.


shav side, you've my agreement. lamanian side...

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/4054/91080794.jpg

That's orange to red alert, 20-30 kills, and 1-3 casts of wall. Heck, the fact that you pop over to the other side and have minimal comprable effectiveness without Banishment should be it'sself an indication of how much the useful spell progression for casters operates in fits and starts.
edit- ahha. right link!

[rodallec]

+1 phidius that is gold.

firewall as it is makes being a caster from 7-14 fun.
wait a few more levels and your firewall will become alot less potent and therefore less used
next people will whinge that Fod and wail are overpowered..
also casters SP is limited so your god til you run out of sp.
a melee can keep swinging all day while your caster can run out of sp and sit back and watch til you get to the next shrine cos you blew all your sp on 2 max emp ext quickened firewalls

sorry about my nerd raging grammar

not signed because i use firewall ALOT to solo on my caster

[AyumiAmakusa]

Boo this man!

How would you save against this?
http://www.dandossantos.com/gallery/tradingcards/full_wall_of_fire.jpg

You pee on it.

[bunitchu]

agreed did ghandalf even come close to beating legolas or gimli in kill counts before he tred? i think not... firewall should be a tr only spell!

lol, but even after the tr he wasnt outkilling stuff....he actually tried to fight the wyverns from the spectres with the...light spell?!?!....w.t.h...but i must admit his master splinter skills with QS/sword were amusing, and his domain over the giant eagles.

even so, why complain about WoF? latter in game nearly everything is immune to fire, Heck, even on shroud u dont see casters using it. It is indeed overpower from low to mid lvl, but on end game, its nearly useless. Casters have their fun for some time with it indeed, but like all good things, it doesnt take long b4 its over. And as the other friend pointed out, they only outkill stuff while they have the blue bar...once it goes empty, they are bystanders, unless they pull FW scrolls...then i will give a good laugh.


remember that the point of the game is to complete quests, not a killcount competition. As long as the spell helps u to complete the quests faster without problems, why the heck will u complain about it? It like complaining why a monk deal 500 dmg with ToD on harry when u deal 50. It doesnt matter, what matter is, its something that HELPS you to COMPLETE the quests, and all help is welcome.

i saw ppl demanding nerfs on many things on many other mmos for pvp sake...but seriously, some ppl come complain because the caster is leading the kill count with his soon-to-be-useless spell? common ppl, there are better things to complain about.

[melkor1702]

*snip*

@OP
I think the most important change of your list would be the advanced Mob AI. This one step would fix most of the Problem firewall causes right now.

*snip*

Problem with this is it would make the Mob's at least twice as intelligent as half the players. Most players here can tell stories of players who will stand in enemy firewalls and bladebarriers, including since Turbine changed the colours and not realise the have taken damage or knowing why they've died.

[Merlocke]

No.

[donfilibuster]

the thing about wall of fire is that in PnP it was just that, a wall. it was meant to just be a barrier. enemies wouldn't just stand in it.

This.
Altough to be fair no d&d monster is afraid to die (just like ddo players).

Otherwise there's no brokenness, PnP have plenty of no-save no-resist area spells, where the point is not to stand in them.
This including swarm spells, and the reflex save is often to roll out before it catches you, but still get hurt if you walk in.

[PopeDX]

I'll never understand the urge to make your companions less helpful in helping you complete quests.

[RobertVesco]

I'll never understand the urge to make your companions less helpful in helping you complete quests.

Me neither. People were up in arms about Radiant Servant and it was mostly used to heal them.
I think some people only want to group with others so that they have an audience. But when they audience starts to participate and take some of the attention away, they get upset.

[Chai]

I don't think the length of time that things have been a certain way matters. Especially since you can respec feats, enhancements and spells. .

Lets nerf khopesh right down to x2 crit and see how many people agree with you. I'd still agree, but if you thought the rants about the last combat nerf were bad.....bwahahahahahahaw....


Years ago, in Everquest, any low level player could get high level buffs and be much stronger than they should be. In fact, it was considered the normal way to play. High levels stood in public areas casting these buffs for tips (sometimes "tips preferred but not required!").

Yeap, I used to rock my mass KEI in the nexus at least once a day.


It was like this for years. Then, one day, a patch came down. It said something to the effect of, "We know people have gotten used to playing the game a certain way, but we feel this will be better in the long run." Boom. Level restrictions on buffs. And you know what? It was just fine. People just went back to playing appropriately.

I have always said people had it alot harder in those games but they cry alot more here. Can I get a witness?

That level restriction on the buff was only for the target though. Anyone in the area of effect still got my mass KEI when I targeted someone else of high enough level. Level 15 wizards running around with 4 hours of KEI level mana regen could just spam nukes until their fingers went numb.

Now put that wurmslayer in the trade window so I can admire it for a sec... :p

[CrescentCalling_5]

Actually my favorite character is my wizard who's coming up on level 7, going to get wall of fire soon :P

On a side note, in the PnP version of Dungeons and Dragons it does allow for a reflex saving throw o3o because the wall of fire only eminates heat forward, away from the caster, so it's a reflex saving throw to dodge behind the wall where no heat comes out.

And sorry but double damage to undead is just way too much :| so many freakin abusable techniques!

1. Use extended wall of fire
2. position your henchman to barricade the doorway
3. lure undead
4. 5 seconds later they all die and you just completed the quest.

Also if we're following the original PnP version, wall of fire is supposed to dispel whenever an enemy inflicts more than 20 points of damage to it.

I'm suggesting this nerf because I care about balancing spells out o3o either this spell needs a moderate nerf/reworking or other spells of this level and higher need to be reworked properly.

[Vellrad]

Don't touch Wall of Fire, just be happy that it damages the mob. If you really hate it so much, better grind levels fast, or avoid grouping with casters. And if you still hate firewall when you're lv20, avoid epic VoN1 :)

[fuzzy1guy]

Firewall does not need nerfed. ALL the other spells need fixing to bring them in line with the power of WoF tho. Including the half dozen or so you'll NEVER see anyone use as they are totally worthless.



But your personal problem with firewall is easy to solve..

repeat after me... "DDO IS NOT D&D"

There.. keep repeating that until it sinks in finally...