Atari Announce...

[GoldyGopher]

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/atari-and-cryptic-studios-announce-neverwinter-coming-in-2011-for-pc-101292314.html


"We're beyond thrilled to develop a brand new version of Neverwinter. It's been years since the original became a gaming icon and we're honored to work with such a great franchise," said Jack Emmert, COO of Cryptic Studios. "We've been working closely with Wizards of the Coast and R.A. Salvatore to create an authentic D&D adventure filled with compelling fiction and exciting gameplay."

In Neverwinter, players choose to become one of five classic D&D classes and team up with friends or computer-controlled allies to form five-person co-op groups. Players also create their own storylines and quests utilizing an extremely user-friendly content generation system, tentatively codenamed Forge.


Most reports indicate it is an online RPG and not a full-blown MMORPG,

[Juppstein]

There is hope then. They did not try to do a full fledged MMO. I might even get interested in this. Though the limits, or the lack thereof, of the Forge will make or break this game.

[flynnjsw]

After reading both the announcement and going to playneverwinter.com you won't see me playing it. IMO, they totally burnt the the Realms to the ground with 4E, and that is the ruleset they will be using. It is not even going to be a true MMO.

[GoldyGopher]

http://www.playneverwinter.com/about

Neverwinter features co-operative multiplayer in an ever-evolving, persistent world where Dungeons & Dragons adventurers quest alongside thousands of other warriors, rogues, wizards and faithful avengers.


A little different information than the original press release.

[OmegaDestroyer]

Cryptic? It'd be easier to have faith in the company if they ever fixed the numerous flaws of Champions Online.

[Buggss]

When I saw the "Atari announces..." in the title I almost convinced myself not to even look but now I'm glad I did.

IMO another DDO mmo would be a bad idea, apart from content I can't see this game ever being improved on. The bugs (no pun intended) that need ironing out are more technicalities than real problems.

Long live DDO!!!!


After reading both the announcement and going to playneverwinter.com you won't see me playing it. IMO, they totally burnt the the Realms to the ground with 4E, and that is the ruleset they will be using. It is not even going to be a true MMO.

4ed? Bleh!! Big step backwards imo. 3.5 will take a lot to improve on.

[NeutronStar]

New Neverwinter Nights is EPIC Fail.

[Missing_Minds]

I wonder if it will have the same "active" *coughbull****cough* combat of CO.

[Nospheratus]

4th ed? No thank you.

FAIL!

[Rasczak]

I thought 4th was a bad dream, it happened after I mistakenly said yes to play Modern: Pokemon.

5 basic classes huh? Hitter, Stealer, Limper, Marble Collector and Burn?

I am so turned off by Atari right now they could release a new version of "strip that chick" and I'd have to pass :/

[Minttunator]

Sorry for the slightly off-topic question, but I'm curious... A lot of people here seem to really hate the 4th edition ruleset - would anybody care to elaborate, why that is? :confused:

[Bladedge]

From Gamespot http://www.gamespot.com/news/6273953.html?tag=latestheadlines%3Btitle%3B1


While Neverwinter will require players to connect to an online server to play, Cryptic stopped short of calling it a massively multiplayer online role-playing game. In the game, players can choose between one of five traditional D&D character classes. Gamers can then join five-man squads composed of other online players to venture forth into the city's dungeons, completing quests and gathering items along the way. Neverwinter also offers a single-player component, in which players can recruit computer-controlled allies to accomplish the same missions.

[Missing_Minds]

Sorry for the slightly off-topic question, but I'm curious... A lot of people here seem to really hate the 4th edition ruleset - would anybody care to elaborate, why that is? :confused:

If I want to play 4E, I'd go play WoW. But instead of WoW, I've got Lotro for free which does NOT look like I'm trying to poke a cartoon.

[GoldyGopher]

As someone asked...

The lawsuit between Hasbro and Atari is still a current and active case. It has not been resolved to the best of knowledge (Case CA09-610ML - US District Court Rhode Island).

[Tinrae]

Hmm, I'd actually like to try it at least....but with DDO, Lotro, EQ2 Extended (soon), GW2 (soon), and Dragon Age.....my gaming is tapped out for the foreseeable future.....

The only game I would add to my hobbying right now would be a sudden unexpected appearance of the oft-rumored Elder Scrolls MMO, but that's wishful thinking. ;)

[flynnjsw]

Sorry for the slightly off-topic question, but I'm curious... A lot of people here seem to really hate the 4th edition ruleset - would anybody care to elaborate, why that is? :confused:

I've been playing D&D off and on since the "Red Box", so for me it's not that it's just a ruleset change. I was never able to get into it, and I actually did try. The final straw for me was when they released the info on LFR (Living Forgotten Realms), and how much they destroyed what "used to be" one of my favorite campaign settings. Considering that is the basis of the new game announced, I do not see how I would be able to get past that.

[learst]

Hm,

I'm surprised that most by the love most folks here have towards NWN. I never tried multiplayer (bad connection back then), and mostly played the single player campaign and tried some custom modules. Truthfully I thought the single player campaign was a snooze, though in NWN2 it got somewhat better. The only fault in NWN2 was there was so much hinting and foreboding that basically you'll have to be an idiot to not figure out most of the storyline by then.

I pretty much love Interplay's games. While Baldur's Gate had a more epic story, I find Icewind Dale to have some of the most exciting dungeon crawls and challenging battles. I would really look forward to another game from Interplay, but last I heard that company went down the drain?

[MeliCat]

i never really got into Neverwinter nights although i tried to a few times because of all the hype. gl to them i guess...

hmmmm.

oh and http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-t-e-r-a/701208

Tera looks interesting.

[marcosoneghett]

Well, imagine you are in the late 70s and you need to buy a ride. Then you find that nice muscle car Dungeons and Dragons, which is inventive and has a unique feel when you ride.
Later, in the 80s and 90s you see that same ride being upgraded to versions 2 and 3, which didn’t changed much of it core mechanics and driving experience.
Then, after the millennium a group of designers decides that this muscle car is outdated and its old public won’t provide enough income for the product to survive in the future.
They decide to redesign a genuine American model in a Japanese-international hybrid, which of course it’s not Japanese, neither international and much less American. Without a true identity this new model fails to bring new customers at the same time it alienates the old customers, removing references based on decades of riding it.

[Smitey]

http://www.massively.com/2010/08/23/cryptic-and-atari-announce-neverwinter/

"I wouldn't say MMORPG at all -- Neverwinter is a cooperative RPG."

[MrkGrismer]

Well, imagine you are in the late 70s and you need to buy a ride. Then you find that nice muscle car Dungeons and Dragons, which is inventive and has a unique feel when you ride.
Later, in the 80s and 90s you see that same ride being upgraded to versions 2 and 3, which didn’t changed much of it core mechanics and driving experience.
Then, after the millennium a group of designers decides that this muscle car is outdated and its old public won’t provide enough income for the product to survive in the future.
They decide to redesign a genuine American model in a Japanese-international hybrid, which of course it’s not Japanese, neither international and much less American. Without a true identity this new model fails to bring new customers at the same time it alienates the old customers, removing references based on decades of riding it.


You talking about the Ford Probe?

[Juppstein]

Sorry for the slightly off-topic question, but I'm curious... A lot of people here seem to really hate the 4th edition ruleset - would anybody care to elaborate, why that is? :confused:

Because roleplayers hate change :) Whenever there is a new edition of a system coming out or a change in an existing game world you will see the zealots rising out of their caves yelling apocalyptic prophecies while demanding the head of those responsible for this "abomination, usually the head is demanded without the rest of the body still attached to it...

Roleplayers are a very complicated lot. Trust me, I am one since about 20 years.

Edit says: If you want to see the edition/setting wars in action just hop over to sites like enworld.org or dragonsfoot.net and have a look in some of those forums.

[Uska]

If its cryptic it will be horrible.

[Quarterling]

I loved Baulder's Gate, and I hopped from BG to Neverwinter Nights due to it still being a part of the core rules of D&D.

I must admit that I was pretty intrigued in this reveal Atari gave us, but as soon as I found out it was using the fourth edition ruleset, all I can say is...

http://www.mattwardman.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/q-icon-no.gif

[ghettoGenius]

You know what? Despite this being from Cryptic and based on 4ED I'm still going to check this out. I'm sure it will be a bit light in the beginning (5 classes is tight), but all games are like that and DDO was no exception. I remember it taking about a year after NWN and NWN2 releases for a good amount of persistent worlds to get built and populated and from what I'm reading this new Neverwinter will have the same game world type of creation tool (player created quests and environments ... what many DDO players wish we had but will probably never realize due to the closed system it runs on) and likely a DM client again as well. If it operates on the same server principles as the last versions then I see this as being very popular.

IMO the best thing about the previous NWN versions was the multiplayer persistent worlds run by players. This created countless campaigns to try out and engage in. It also opens up possibilities for game world creators and DMs. On many levels it is much more role play oriented or at least opened up more possibilities in terms of interacting with your environment, not to mention dynamic replayablity. But it also opens up other types of gaming experiences such as PvP worlds, permadeath, capture the flag, static group dungeon crawls, etc. These options helped make NWN last so long.

The 4ED thing is kinda bleh, but I'm sure it will get twisted into something more manageable in an online environment and probably wont be half as bad as some people think.

[Uska]

You know what? Despite this being from Cryptic and based on 4ED I'm still going to check this out. I'm sure it will be a bit light in the beginning (5 classes is tight), but all games are like that and DDO was no exception. I remember it taking about a year after NWN and NWN2 releases for a good amount of persistent worlds to get built and populated and from what I'm reading this new Neverwinter will have the same game world type of creation tool (player created quests and environments ... what many DDO players wish we had but will probably never realize due to the closed system it runs on) and likely a DM client again as well. If it operates on the same server principles as the last versions then I see this as being very popular.

IMO the best thing about the previous NWN versions was the multiplayer persistent worlds run by players. This created countless campaigns to try out and engage in. It also opens up possibilities for game world creators and DMs. On many levels it is much more role play oriented or at least opened up more possibilities in terms of interacting with your environment, not to mention dynamic replayablity. But it also opens up other types of gaming experiences such as PvP worlds, capture the flag, static group dungeon crawls, etc. These options helped make NWN last so long.

The 4ED thing is kinda bleh, but I'm sure it will get twisted into something more manageable in an online environment and probably wont be half as bad as some people think.

For me its more of it being by cryptic then being 4E although I loathe 4E they messed up champions so much its criminal although thats not entirely their fault since SL messed up champions with his 6th downgrade. I might have been willing to try it since 4E is only one strike but they got two more that being cryptic and FR so 3 strikes and they are out.

[Juppstein]

Well said ghettoGenius.

The official NWN campaign, while being interesting at times, was a pale shadow compared to what was created by the community. If the Forge tool is only half as flexible as the original NWN Toolset then the content coming out of the community will beat every official campaign by miles, regardless of who created it.

I could not care less about the game being done with 4e, 2e or chainmail rules. The important thing is that there is going to be a toolset. And if Cryptic is not messing this part up then this could get very interesting. I was never a Forgotten Realms fan (being an old Greyhawk fart) but why should I care about this when I can create my own content. Heck, I really do not like Eberron at all but a dungeon is a dungeon is a dungeon so the setting vanishes more or less as soon as I enter a vault.

[tenalafel]

ok, let see...

NWN1 : Great, though lacking a few things on the world/adventure creation side.
NWN2 : bleh, with the limitation in server hosting (Windows mandatory), the instability of the server, the non existant DB, the cutscenes, and a toolset that needed a PhD to master, epic failure IMO.

Another NWN... oh, to limit piracy, you need to be connected to the net, even if you play single user at home...
( that's what's hinted by the connect to play ), toolset reduced as the previous one was an epic failure, no standalone server, no 'other Os than windows support', no ... well, why Am I bothering ?

All in all I'll may check the box when it comes out.... depending on the price, what I see on it ( Steam Powered = instant rejection of the game... even if it looked interesting... I want to be able to play single player playable games even when I'm not connected to the net ) I might eventually consent to buy it. Wait and See...

[Juppstein]

Another NWN... oh, to limit piracy, you need to be connected to the net, even if you play single user at home...
( that's what's hinted by the connect to play ), toolset reduced as the previous one was an epic failure, no standalone server, no 'other Os than windows support', no ... well, why Am I bothering ?

Wow, there are still people out there who think you have to be online to start Steam and play a game?

[DelScorcho]

If Cryptic is on board, run away. Far far away. I have a lifetime membership with CO. However, I haven't played in 6 months. The game itself is fun. However, playing it forces you to deal with the developer's nonsense. So you level a melee character to cap. Suddenly Cryptic decides that the powers your character possesses are overpowered. Suddenly, your tank has the killing power of an athritic 98 year old woman. And then they move on to the next character type to ruin, err nerf, err "Improve".

I'll never use another Cryptic game based upon my time in CO. If I had cancer and Cryptic had the cure, I would rather just die. It would be far less frustrating that way ...

[Missing_Minds]

Wow, there are still people out there who think you have to be online to start Steam and play a game?
Cryptic is NOT Valve.

So yes, you will have to be connected to play. They never said anything about an offline mode either.

[Folonius]

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/atari-and-cryptic-studios-announce-neverwinter-coming-in-2011-for-pc-101292314.html



Most reports indicate it is an online RPG and not a full-blown MMORPG,


Uhg .. Jack Emmert ... Isn't he the guy who butchered Star Wars and introduced Enhancement Diversification to CoH?

[stretchcore]

I thought they tried really hard to make it sound different to DDO in the press info, which worries me.

I liked, and still play both NWN and NWN 2 when I don't have the time for DDO or my net connection is off. I'd never want to play the FR setting in any form of online gaming unless it was peer to peer connections however, for a few reasons.
My own personal pet hate about the idea is the sheer number of people who don't have any imagination in character creation and will no doubt create an army of Chaotic Good Drow dual wielding Rangers.



Oh wait, they got Salvatore on board already?
And he's signed up to write another load of Drizzt books?


Feh. I hate fanboys.


Planescape Online though, now there's an interesting concept. Shame noone's got the balls to take that idea on :(

[AyumiAmakusa]

Sorry for the slightly off-topic question, but I'm curious... A lot of people here seem to really hate the 4th edition ruleset - would anybody care to elaborate, why that is? :confused:

You just opened up a can of worms with that one.

[GoldyGopher]

I was never a big fan of either NWN video games they did not create the level of addiction that many other games have done in the past. If you like NWN then your perspective will be different, but personally I found the "story" behind Baldur's Gate or even some of the older SSI games far more interesting, but of course when you add in the least common denominator.

I too noticed how much they attempted to differentiate NW from DDO:EU. That may not be a bad thing for DDO, as if it bombs Turbine can say "hey not us".

The new game suffers from a number of things that will limit may already low interest.
[Comments about Developer/Publisher censored for my own good]
4E - Might as well play LOTRO, a better game.
Alternative Universe - that comment left me scratching my head. Why is it an alternative Universe.
The combination of the Game, Book, Role Playing Setting, and other media, yawn....
Is it an MMO or an RPG? The possibility that you will have to be online to play, heck if that is the case might as well play an online game.

I'll look at the box when it comes out, however unless it **** near free I suspect it's one game I won't be playing.

[Xatasha]

When I got 4E and tried it out...it gave me the feeling that someone tried to port a MMO to table top gaming. A bet they wanted a rule set that could work as a MMO to try and sucker us into more computer games.

[Memnir]

Cryptic + 4E = not even curious.
.
.
.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/EnPsyane/4thed-1.jpg
.
.
.

[flynnjsw]

Cryptic + 4E = not even curious.
.
.
.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/EnPsyane/4thed-1.jpg
.
.
.

That is perfect Mem; I am glad I wasn't drinking anything when I saw it.

[Teldurn]

I was never a big fan of either NWN video games they did not create the level of addiction that many other games have done in the past. If you like NWN then your perspective will be different, but personally I found the "story" behind Baldur's Gate or even some of the older SSI games far more interesting, but of course when you add in the least common denominator.

I too noticed how much they attempted to differentiate NW from DDO:EU. That may not be a bad thing for DDO, as if it bombs Turbine can say "hey not us".

The new game suffers from a number of things that will limit may already low interest.
[Comments about Developer/Publisher censored for my own good]
4E - Might as well play LOTRO, a better game.
Alternative Universe - that comment left me scratching my head. Why is it an alternative Universe.
The combination of the Game, Book, Role Playing Setting, and other media, yawn....
Is it an MMO or an RPG? The possibility that you will have to be online to play, heck if that is the case might as well play an online game.

I'll look at the box when it comes out, however unless it **** near free I suspect it's one game I won't be playing.
Interestingly, the reasons you listed as a turn-off are exactly reasons that create interest for me.

-[Also no comment on developer/publisher issue]
-I love 4e rules (And I think I'm the only one on these forums that thinks that way. Please don't kill me. :()
-I'm ambivalent about their use of an alternative universe. I'll wait to see it before passing judgment.
-Game, book, roleplaying setting, etc.. To quote The Sound of Music, o/~ These are a few of my favorite things. o/~
-I have a nagging feeling that it might play like Diablo 1/2, where you're online, and playing with other people, but it's not exactly an MMO per se.

All in all, this is exciting news for me, and I will wait to see what more they produce to determine my interest level, and then I'll try it out before deciding if it's any good.

[die]

years ago i yelled " im not buying 3.5 " lol then i started playing DDO.. and broke down i love books period.

i will be playing this new game . i love pretty much every thing DnD. now when i play NWN 1 and 2 and the exspansion packs. i love them . but not like i love ddo the real time combat is great. now if we could just find a way too combine the TWO - feats ,spells , classes ,races from the core game and the combat from ddo. Who ever develops that will be siting on a gold mine .

[PhoenixFire31]

And this just further helps Turbine in the lawsuit. Screw Atari. I hope everything they touch burns to the ground. THIS is why they were trying to ruin DDO. They wanted no competition in the DnD world set for their new soon-to-be failure. Sorry for Cryptic but they made their bed, they can lay it.

[GoldyGopher]

And this just further helps Turbine in the lawsuit. Screw Atari. I hope everything they touch burns to the ground. THIS is why they were trying to ruin DDO. They wanted no competition in the DnD world set for their new soon-to-be failure. Sorry for Cryptic but they made their bed, they can lay it.

The lawsuit between Turbine and Atari was settled out of court months ago.

However you'll notice that Atari is not calling the new game an MMO, rather a co-op RPG.

[Archetype]

... all I can say is...

http://www.mattwardman.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/q-icon-no.gif


or, better yet:

http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

[Mecholi22]

i never really got into Neverwinter nights although i tried to a few times because of all the hype. gl to them i guess...

hmmmm.

oh and http://www.gametrailers.com/video/e3-2010-t-e-r-a/701208

Tera looks interesting.
that looks like a win in my book

[Chai]

NWN was awesome for people who wanted to put effort into creating their own server.

One of the reasons I liked the original so much is because it is NOT an MMO.

[ahpook]

Awesome.

The rich, rich ruleset of 4th Edition D&D.

The development skills of Cryptic Studios.

AND the management and marketing expertise of Atari!

An impressive match. I can't think of anything better for Turbine.

Of course there might be enough boys who want to play drizzt so bad that it will still make money. Sigh :(

[Gratch]

NWN was awesome for people who wanted to put effort into creating their own server.

One of the reasons I liked the original so much is because it is NOT an MMO.

I like the original NWN for it's ambition to have DM plus players plus world creator. Sadly it was never a great multiplayer game. It was a good single player game with many awesome user-created single player adventures and it was a good persistent world get-together server.... but patches/crashes and the systems limitations (that often got patched at sometime) stopped it from working well towards that original ambition. The multiplayer aspects were so hard to co-ordinate/write-for/balance-for, that even the later Bioware NWN expansions were single player only. User created multiplayer maps often necessitated someone to dual-box the DM to "FIX" things that went wrong - even the good and polished ones.

I say all this because given Atari's hatchet job on every release date, and cryptic's lack of interesting gameplay - the only way their user-creation system FORGE will get past these obstacles is to be insanely limited. But I think they're already advertising huge limitation for this new Neverwinter entity with the "5 character classes banner".

Maybe a better title for this new game should be Gauntlet. Atari, your life force is running out.

[Bladedge]

But I think they're already advertising huge limitation for this new Neverwinter entity with the "5 character classes banner".


And a hand full of races.

Most likely everything that is not part of release will be in Cryptic C-Store and there most likely be a lot of classes, races, map/quest makers tools. They will purposely leave stuff out from the box relese and have it available Day one on the C-store.

[Missing_Minds]

Interestingly, the reasons you listed as a turn-off are exactly reasons that create interest for me.

-[Also no comment on developer/publisher issue]

How much do you really know about Cryptic as a developer company?

[ghettoGenius]

I like the original NWN for it's ambition to have DM plus players plus world creator. Sadly it was never a great multiplayer game. It was a good single player game with many awesome user-created single player adventures and it was a good persistent world get-together server.... but patches/crashes and the systems limitations (that often got patched at sometime) stopped it from working well towards that original ambition. The multiplayer aspects were so hard to co-ordinate/write-for/balance-for, that even the later Bioware NWN expansions were single player only. User created multiplayer maps often necessitated someone to dual-box the DM to "FIX" things that went wrong - even the good and polished ones.

I say all this because given Atari's hatchet job on every release date, and cryptic's lack of interesting gameplay - the only way their user-creation system FORGE will get past these obstacles is to be insanely limited. But I think they're already advertising huge limitation for this new Neverwinter entity with the "5 character classes banner".

Maybe a better title for this new game should be Gauntlet. Atari, your life force is running out.

I have to disagree. I can only speak for myself when I say the multiplayer aspects were what drew me in and kept me playing various persistent worlds for years. Don't even think I ever finished a single player module. However, some people have to have agreed with me because for years the player driven community was pumping out way more content than was produced by the original creators.

The sheer volume of player created content is staggering, so its not unrealistic to assume some integration issues would come up. All in all I found it sometimes troublesome to set up worlds and servers but we eventually got all the scripts and mods doing everything we asked of them and more. Most people don't know that for years you could pretty much play any class/race in D&D lore on NWN1 mods patched with the NWNPRC (http://www.nwnprc.com/nwn/index.html) (even psionics, truenaming, epic spells, etc.) and later in NWN2 Kaedrins Custom Content (http://nwn2customcontent.wikidot.com/overview) amplified game play by huge leaps and bounds. Most of this content was directed at online persistent worlds but could also be ported locally to be ran in single player mods. Check those links out if you don't know what I'm talking about here.

So considering what additional content was accomplished on those earlier platforms, I think the big X factor here is how well they can translate that functionality and opportunity into the Forge component for the player driven community.

[Bladedge]

I don't expect Neverwinter to be as open as the last 2 NWN games. I doubt this game will be like NWN where the players get to create, races, monsters, spells, host their own servers, etc. Cryptic will mostly control everything that is released including the game servers. The only thing players will get to create are the maps and quests.

Based on the recent articles about Atari business plans they want to get get out of the red and focus on online gaming. By letting players create they own classes, races, spells, and abilities defeats this purpose as they can not charge money for it.

[Teldurn]

How much do you really know about Cryptic as a developer company?
Honestly? Not much at all; just hearsay from other people on forums, blogs, etc. Therefore, since I don't really consider any of that information to be firsthand, I cannot accurately form an opinion either way. Hence, my "no comment" comment. :)

[ghettoGenius]

I don't expect Neverwinter to be as open as the last 2 NWN games. I doubt this game will be like NWN where the players get to create, races, monsters, spells, host their own servers, etc. Cryptic will mostly control everything that is released including the game servers. The only thing players will get to create are the maps and quests.

Based on the recent articles about Atari business plans they want to get get out of the red and focus on online gaming. By letting players create they own classes, races, spells, and abilities defeats this purpose as they can not charge money for it.

They will certainly allow player generated content, but from what I've read it seems they will all be tied to the same game server(s) (they keep referring to it as the in game world). I could be wrong about this, because they cant have dozens of different Waterdeeps being built and run simultaneously. Or can they? I am imagining a series of mods available that all tie user profiles and characters together. This is where the fee comes in ... perhaps a monthly sub for access to your mod hosted on their game servers. We will have to wait and see.

[hermespan]

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/atari-and-cryptic-studios-announce-neverwinter-coming-in-2011-for-pc-101292314.html



Most reports indicate it is an online RPG and not a full-blown MMORPG,

I love NWN II. It's a great RPG and well done. However the multiplayer is ghastly, horrendous even. If they can get that right I'd play it. It's really a time waster for me. I break from DDO periodically and play it.

I'll buy it, but I won't expect squat from the multiplayer. If they got it right, it will be a pleasant surprise.

[Missing_Minds]

Honestly? Not much at all; just hearsay from other people on forums, blogs, etc. Therefore, since I don't really consider any of that information to be firsthand, I cannot accurately form an opinion either way. Hence, my "no comment" comment. :)

Heh..... Turbine has NOTHING on Cryptic when it comes to nerfs and stuff broken. Cryptic wins hands down. I do speak from first hand experience.

[Steiner-Davion]

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/atari-and-cryptic-studios-announce-neverwinter-coming-in-2011-for-pc-101292314.html



Most reports indicate it is an online RPG and not a full-blown MMORPG,

I'm thinking that this means that Turbine managed to win back their rights back to Exclusitivity for a D&D based MMO when Atari settled with Turbine.

Thoughts?

[GoldyGopher]

Heh..... Turbine has NOTHING on Cryptic when it comes to nerfs and stuff broken. Cryptic wins hands down. I do speak from first hand experience.

Right now it is highly doubtful that anyone can compete with Cryptic, I would tell you my personal favorite, but this is a PG web-site.

[GoldyGopher]

I'm thinking that this means that Turbine managed to win back their rights back to Exclusitivity for a D&D based MMO when Atari settled with Turbine.

Thoughts?

My inkling is something along those lines (along with Turbine getting the Europe Business) but we will know more as Atari/Cryptic release more information.

[Steiner-Davion]

My inkling is something along those lines (along with Turbine getting the Europe Business) but we will know more as Atari/Cryptic release more information.

It jives with the old Vanity Fair Article from winter 2008, that said they were working on a D&D MMO. So my guess is it was going to be an MMO, but since Atari had to re-grant Turbine the exclusive rights back, that they bullied Turbine into temporarily giving up in the spring of 2009, they scrapped the MMO part of the project, and changed it into a Co-Op RPG to get around this loss.

If this is true, all I can do it laugh uncontrolably at Atari.

[ghettoGenius]

All this talk about NWN has got me missing the PRC and Custom Content pack. If U7 doesnt get here and deliver I might have to reinstall and see how my sorc/bladesinger/swiftblade is doing. Or maybe roam the halls with my demilich skull if that server is still up lol.

[GoldyGopher]

If this is true, all I can do it laugh uncontrolably at Atari.

You actually need a reason to laugh at Atari? I thought there current level of existance was enough.

My favorite rumor (currently unsubstantiated by anyone who should/could know) is that Atari is attempting to right it ship enough that it can be sold lock stock and barrel so that the creditors and stockholders get something. After laughing at that rumor and saying "nah" I get the story about the new Atari Headquarters in LA with "one" item in the whole place that says Atari. A classic Neon Light in an entry way. Than you go hummm.

[Gratch]

I have to disagree. I can only speak for myself when I say the multiplayer aspects were what drew me in and kept me playing various persistent worlds for years. Don't even think I ever finished a single player module. However, some people have to have agreed with me because for years the player driven community was pumping out way more content than was produced by the original creators.

I should restate which part of multiplayer I think failed:

NWN had sort 3 modes: singleplayer questing, < 6 person multiplayer, persistent world.

The "recreated DnD tabletop via 6 person multiplayer questing plus a DM"... never really took off. The other two did though the persistent world took some patching and patching and patching. The original campaign itself was okay single player but the questing/scaling didn't work for a bigger groups. The same was often true of the player created ports of DnD campaigns sadly.

[Doxmaster]

4th makes me kinda sad. Tolerable if the game is good enough, but most dislike it so getting a good player base will be an uphill battle.

[Shanadeus]

5 classes?

I bet it'll only have Humans, Elves, Dwarves and Halflings.

[Robi3.0]

Cryptic, has invited a new level of Fail. This game sucks so much that they themselves can't even bring themselves to call it an MMO. Nice!

DDO has nothing to worry about. Not that I was worried anyhow. :)

[sigtrent]

4th makes me kinda sad. Tolerable if the game is good enough, but most dislike it so getting a good player base will be an uphill battle.

Any new D&D game coming out will be based on 4th edition rules. There is no getting around that. If you are a 3.5 hold out then DDO is the only game in town for you... forever.

Paizo can make pathfinder but they can't make it into a game, the d20 and OGL licence prohibit that.

For those who say 4E is simple... I have to wonder how much you have played. Pretty much every attack in 4E comes with a bunch of considerations about which defense you attack, if and how you move the targets, secondary effects, ongoing status effects etc... I find combat in 4E far more complicated and involved than 3.5 ever was. The only simplifications were more "standardizations."

I was looking at the monk class the other day for my wife's character. Its not simple, not even close. My first level War-mind/Shaman character has about 30 different actions he can perform in combat, not including the standard sets of actions. It doesn't strike me as simple.

If anything I find 4E is too complicated. 1st edition, that was simple, at least playing it was. You roll to hit, you look at a chart, you roll damage, you are done. You needed about 3 pieces of info for a typical monster: AC, HD and Damage.

I'm very curious to see the first 4th edition video game. In 4E about half the powers involve moving you or the target of the attack around. That just doesn't translate well to real time. I imagine much like DDO does away with AOO mechanics, any 4E game will do away with a vast amount of 4Es combat complexity and let the real time movement handle simulating it.

[Mockduck]

I'd heard so much hype about the Neverwinter games, so when steam had NWN2 for $5 I checked it out. I thought it was one of the worst games I've ever played. I found the game virtually unplayable. I guess I just don't get why everyone flips out about the series.

Then again, I'm not in a good position to judge. I've long felt that the Forgotten Realms setting was the worst setting ever in D&D (okay, maybe Spelljammer gets the nod here). Also, I just can't get into Cryptic's games. I'm sure they are a fine dev team, but there's something about their games that really turns me off. I just don't like the way their games look and play, hard to put my finger on what it is exactly. Sort of feels like the graphics are blurry and the gameplay is sluggish.

So, I'm happy for anyone thrilled with today's news, but I just don't get it.

[Kalari]

my ex husband was more into NWN then I was I loved Baldur's gate more. So probably wont be trying this new one no matter how much a D&D geek I think myself as. First of all I wont give anything by Atari another red cent after the four years of **** we put up with and their lack of even advertising for us. Second I have my own reasons for disliking 4E I know that my old gang has gone back to running older modules due to their own personal dislikes and I'll leave it at that. IM old the older I get the more comfortable I feel with rule sets I can enjoy.

So good luck with the cryptic atari match up but honestly the game wont be on my radar.

[Damionic]

My Vote NEVERWINTER over more years of this hash job.

[Bladedge]

Massively Exclusive with Jack Emmert: http://www.massively.com/2010/08/23/massively-exclusive-jack-emmert-speaks-about-neverwinter-and-a/#continued


With Battle.net and Steam out there, will we have to be online to play Neverwinter?

Yes, you will have to connect to our servers. Just like an MMO, that is a similarity.

So there's no offline play?

There is no offline play.



We've changed our entire development strategy. We're no longer just doing MMOs but online multiplayer games
I wounder why?....

[markhoge]

maybe A Better Title For This New Game Should Be gauntlet. Atari, Your Life Force Is Running Out.

Hilarious!
+1 Rep

[Symar-FangofLloth]

Massively interview. (Oops, posted two above me. Missed that lol)
Sounds like the guy knows how to spin a few of the things, and recognize where they went wrong with CO/STO.
http://www.massively.com/2010/08/23/massively-exclusive-jack-emmert-speaks-about-neverwinter-and-a/

But they don't say much about the game itself. It's not turnbased, and it is 4e, and it's based on Salvatore's novels. And they're really vague on public vs private instances.

[AestorTheKnight]

Money is the root of all evil. Atari are moneygrabbers and so are Cryptic.

[Zilta]

I'll take a wait and see attitude on this, depending on how close it stays to D&D and if it uses 3.5 rules as a basis or 4ed as a basis.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

I'll take a wait and see attitude on this, depending on how close it stays to D&D and if it uses 3.5 rules as a basis or 4ed as a basis.

It's 4e.

[die]

http://www.massively.com/2010/08/23/...rwinter-and-a/

i read it .. i have never played one of thier games .. only ddo/lotro i hate lotro:).. [combat]

any way like i said before "i love every thing dnd" and im looking forward too geting in on the beta/ its about time i start trying other games this is all i know- ddo and as much as i love it im geting pretty bored. But will always keep my ddo accounts lol thier pretty cheap for what i get. the cost of ddo for 6 months vs. 1 night at the bar lol :)

[sigtrent]

I'd heard so much hype about the Neverwinter games, so when steam had NWN2 for $5 I checked it out. I thought it was one of the worst games I've ever played. I found the game virtually unplayable. I guess I just don't get why everyone flips out about the series.

It was hard to get into. Both the first and second editions of NWN start out really badly and get far better as you play them.

NWN1, starts out with a stupid plot and a linear quest line. But as it develops it gets better, even good as you get out of the opening part of the quests and into the wider city. NWN1 had two really good aspects.

1. It had a huge range of class and race options as well as a great many feats and other goodies so you could really make a huge range of characters.

2. It came with an easy to use editor and fans made a huge range of adventures with it. Many of them were drop dead awesome in terms of story and creativity. It was these fan adventures and later quests the company released that made it famous.

NWN2, was release massively buggy and hard to play and the story starts out pretty weakly. But... as it develops it turns into one of the best RPG stories in any RPG game with really cool NPC interaction and story choices. You get to run your own castle and deal with who you hire to run it and all kinds of cool stuff that really adds to the story and the sense of role playing. I shelved it on first play. Later when they'd patched it I ran through the quest 3 times which is something I only do with the very best RPG games. Dragon age comes to mind and honestly it wasn't as good.

NWN2 also had a huge range of character options.

[die]

It was hard to get into. Both the first and second editions of NWN start out really badly and get far better as you play them.

NWN1, starts out with a stupid plot and a linear quest line. But as it develops it gets better, even good as you get out of the opening part of the quests and into the wider city. NWN1 had two really good aspects.

1. It had a huge range of class and race options as well as a great many feats and other goodies so you could really make a huge range of characters.

2. It came with an easy to use editor and fans made a huge range of adventures with it. Many of them were drop dead awesome in terms of story and creativity. It was these fan adventures and later quests the company released that made it famous.

NWN2, was release massively buggy and hard to play and the story starts out pretty weakly. But... as it develops it turns into one of the best RPG stories in any RPG game with really cool NPC interaction and story choices. You get to run your own castle and deal with who you hire to run it and all kinds of cool stuff that really adds to the story and the sense of role playing. I shelved it on first play. Later when they'd patched it I ran through the quest 3 times which is something I only do with the very best RPG games. Dragon age comes to mind and honestly it wasn't as good.

NWN2 also had a huge range of character options.

/agree dragons age is siting here lol i never made it in far nwn1 was my favoter with balors.. but i really love hordes of the under dark were u start with all your cool uber gear being stolen lol- you start in waterdeep and end up in .. well im not going too tell you :) but its great i was a 30th lv assassin and a few others shadow dancer mm assassin was my favorite tho:)

[KristovK]

The Forge engine will be a revamp of the current engine Cryptic is using for Star Trek Online, which is pretty clear to those of us who've played STO due to what is so far stated about the new NWN...5 man groups, have to be online to play, user generated content(something they've been real big on hyping in STO for their NEXT project), plus there's the simple fact that Cryptic created the engine for Champions Online originally and it's meant to be used for whatever setting you want in an online multiplayer game..not really massive, party of 5 is the general limit, but it CAN deal with up to 50 players in a single instance. Oh yeah..that's the other thing, the engine is all instance based, which is something most of us DDO fans love, but it's kinda hated by a lot of MMOers for some reason. Of course, those same haters constantly complain about having to spend hour upon hour sitting in a single location waiting for their chance to kill that named mob for that quest that a hundred OTHER people are doing at the same time..so...

CO and STO are advertised as MMOs, but those of us who play them can tell you, they are just solo player games with a co-op option :) With this new NWN game, it would appear that Cryptic has finally realized that calling their games an MMO is more then a bit misleading and could open them up to some lawsuits, so they are calling it what it is, an online solo player game that you have the option of doing co-op with up to 4 other people with.

Now, Cryptic makes BEAUTIFUL games, no two ways about it, and their character customization is top notch. Spending hours in the creator is rather commonplace in STO, there's just sooooo many things you can do with it, and that's a common trait in Cryptic's games, so THAT will be awesome in this new NWN game. You won't be seeing the same 5 or 6 Human Fighters with slightly different colored hair. And the world will undoubtedly be quite breath taking, Cryptic does really great eye candy.

Sadly, that'll probably be the end of it, since Cryptic rather fails on the rest of the game creation side. It's kind of funny because they tend to put out rather well balanced games at release. But someone whines about something and suddenly Cryptic enters this vicious cycle of nerf/whines/more nerfs and it just never stops. CoH/V(while Cryptic was running it), CO and now STO have all followed this pattern and it's really too bad. They never look at the simple fixes..this ability is overpowered/has no counter, so give it a counter! No, their solution is always to redo the ability so that it no longer did what it did by making it useless, has a counter, AND can be stopped from working at all before it's even used. It's really too bad, because CO and STO both have so much potential, which no one will ever see brought to light *sigh*.

As for the original NWN..it was a single player game with the option of making a server/host/DM and allowing others to connect to that so you could play D&D online with your friends, either in the original campaign for NWN or with your own/other's custom adventures/worlds. The multiplayer side was rather..well...anemic is being nice, it sucked, pure and simple. The NWN fan base took what was given us, and with the MASSIVE help of the dev team at Bioware, we created persistant worlds, databases, and SOOOOO much more. Millions of people bought and played NWN over the course of 5 years, with thousands of NWN Persistant World servers being up and played on in that time. There's still quite a few of those PWs still running for NWN. I did a lot of work on those things years ago, from writing/building adventures to scripting to modelling to running PWs. What Bioware gave us to start with was..well..a base, one that the community went totally berzerk with and created a monster out of. NWN2..eh..it was a crock. Bioware had left, Obsidian used the OLD engine, not even the most updated version of that engine! and updated it's graphics section to create NWN2. They created a horrible horrible mess, it was a PRETTY mess, but it was still horrible. Old bugs long fixed in the original were back, Obsidian didn't bother to even try and fix them, not even using fixes ALREADY IN THE UPDATED ENGINE! I'd like to not blame Obsidian and say it was all Atari's fault, but that's not true, Obsidian new there was an updated engine they could use, they didn't, they didn't even look at the bug fixes(WELL DOCUMENTED!) to fix what they were using. That is all strictly on the heads of the guys at Obsidian.

The new NWN game, coming from Cryptic, won't be using that old outdated and buggy as hells engine, it'll be using Cryptic's own current engine, the one they created for CO and use for STO, updated for Dx11 no doubt(they DO rock with eye candy). You'll have to pay to play their single player game with a co-op option, because there's no way to play the game offline. User generated content will be..well..take a look at all the NWN original user generated content. Every few thousand pieces you'll find something OK..not great, not good, but OK :) Expect the exact same thing with the new NWN and it's user generated content. 99.99% of the brilliant people who KNOW they can create wonderful content...can't. Cryptic already does this with CO, so the people who play it can tell you, there's a lot of **** you have to wade through to find something good. Hopefully Cryptic will put in some sort of system so that user generated content is rated before it's allowed to be placed on their system..but since they don't do that now in CO, I doubt it'll be any different in NWN.

[Aussir]

Cryptic + 4 ED rules = EPIC FAIL.

Yet another "MMO" to stay away from like the plague. *waits for dragon age 2*

[Donnie]

Atari and Crypic together, lol, sounds like a disaster.

[zealous]

CO and STO are advertised as MMOs, but those of us who play them can tell you, they are just solo player games with a co-op option :) With this new NWN game, it would appear that Cryptic has finally realized that calling their games an MMO is more then a bit misleading and could open them up to some lawsuits, so they are calling it what it is, an online solo player game that you have the option of doing co-op with up to 4 other people with.

It sure does sound like DDO though.



Every few thousand pieces you'll find something OK..not great, not good, but OK :)

Much of the ugc was way better than the oc, and some modules quite good imo.



there's a lot of **** you have to wade through to find something good.
Quite true for all ugc I reckon.


http://www.massively.com/2010/08/23/massively-exclusive-jack-emmert-speaks-about-neverwinter-and-a/#continued


What type of business model are you going to use with this?
We haven't announced that yet -- we've got some kooky plans that I think people will like.

This really peaked my interest.

What if they "go appstore" with the ugc? I.e. People can make money from making content.
Would ofc be dependant on how big the OMG becomes but it would make for a huge difference compared to NWN.

[Gornin]

I play CO, and while I agree that the eye candy is excellent, game play is meh, but I still enjoy puttering around on there once in a while. IMO, it isn't as horrible as some say, but it has serious balance issues, especially for melee characters. What took weeks with a pure martial artist to get to mid 20's took days with a ranged power character.

But as many have said, 4E is a serious turnoff. I playtested it and even played it for about a year before we all got sick of it. Balance issues, constant nerfing, having to play with a map and minis because of all the movement skills/powers, linear building (even though you have choices, most powers aren't worth taking, so everyone takes the same powers), "multiclassing" is a joke, skill selection is too limited. I could go on. It doesn't even feel/play like DnD. It is a completely different game with the DnD name to make money. To top it off, it is not doing well. Many have become disenchanted because the Virtual Table top will never see the light of day.

Maybe if it was someone else doing it, I might give a look, but as it is, I am pretty sure it will be a pass for me too.

[stretchcore]

OT - so if we merge the company names Atari and Cryptic, we get Craptari?

[Minttunator]

Because roleplayers hate change :) Whenever there is a new edition of a system coming out or a change in an existing game world you will see the zealots rising out of their caves yelling apocalyptic prophecies while demanding the head of those responsible for this "abomination, usually the head is demanded without the rest of the body still attached to it...

Roleplayers are a very complicated lot. Trust me, I am one since about 20 years.

Edit says: If you want to see the edition/setting wars in action just hop over to sites like enworld.org or dragonsfoot.net and have a look in some of those forums.

Cheers for the answer! :)

Your explanation seems rather likely, I seem to remember a fairly similar outcry when 3.0 came out. I've also read a bit of the edition wars on various websites and I was curious - thus my original question - since these discussions often end in people claiming, in my opinion, slightly odd things like "4th edition is WoW" (since WoW is also really bad) or "you can't roleplay in 4th edition". Such statements sometimes make me wonder whether some of the "haters" (truly, no offense meant to anyone here) have actually played 4th edition at all. But that's probably just me, I'm weird like that. :o

Thanks again for the input and sorry for derailing the thread a bit! Perhaps I ought to make a separate topic to discuss this further. :)

[Robi3.0]

Cheers for the answer! :)

Your explanation seems rather likely, I seem to remember a fairly similar outcry when 3.0 came out. I've also read a bit of the edition wars on various websites and I was curious - thus my original question - since these discussions often end in people claiming, in my opinion, slightly odd things like "4th edition is WoW" (since WoW is also really bad) or "you can't roleplay in 4th edition". Such statements sometimes make me wonder whether some of the "haters" (truly, no offense meant to anyone here) have actually played 4th edition at all. But that's probably just me, I'm weird like that. :o

Thanks again for the input and sorry for derailing the thread a bit! Perhaps I ought to make a separate topic to discuss this further. :)

I have come to like 4e a lot, but I am usually the first to compare it to WoW. MMO-like is probably a more fair comparison, but WoW and MMO go hand and hand.

Also anyone that says you can't role play in 4e wasn't a very good role player to begin with. You can role play with any rules set or none at all if you truly want to. Hell drop me ass naked in to the middle of the woods with nothing but a piece of paper with "DM instructions" on it and I can still RP with the best of them.

[Teldurn]

I have come to like 4e a lot, but I am usually the first to compare it to WoW. MMO-like is probably a more fair comparison, but WoW and MMO go hand and hand.

Also anyone that says you can't role play in 4e wasn't a very good role player to begin with. You can role play with any rules set or none at all if you truly want to. Hell drop me ass naked in to the middle of the woods with nothing but a piece of paper with "DM instructions" on it and I can still RP with the best of them.
^^THIS^^, so very much this. Bless your heart RoBi.

[GoldyGopher]

I wasn't going to comment about 4e, but my bad habits are getting the better of me.

I dislike 4th Edition, there are a number of reasons; however there is one telling issue, that has been sort of danced around in the few posts about it. 4e is not a good "role-playing" game, it provides too big of crutch to those who "don't wanna" and too big a road block for your typical DM to put role playing in.

I have always said it is not the game that makes the group but the group that makes the game and I think that is even more true in 4e. If you have a good group that could RP after being dropped buck naked in a bear cave no problem, if you have a group who has no clue what role playing is they are not going to learn with 4e.

Dang I hope that makes sense.

[Drakos]

I'm of mixed feelings about this. Forst off I'm not a Cryptic hater. I, in fact, like at least one of their MMO's. I was in beta for CoH and I have had an active acount since the 3-day head start at launch. I still think it is one of the best games out there. I admit that CO and STO are not up to par with CoH however. I was in Alpha and Beta with CO and in Beta for STO. They were OK but I don't currently play either, I have a lifetime sub for CO though so I might check back after awhile.

As for using the 4e rules, this is a major detractor to me. I despise the 4e rules. I'll admit this is mainly because it has the D&D name and is NOT D&D. I've played since 1e and believe me it is nothing like D&D. Yes I have played 4e, and am in fact in a PbP game currently. I can see that they will needd to make major changes, moreso than DDO did and that is saying alot, from the source material because the mechanics do not lend themselves to real-time play. Way to many effects let tou move your target and many allow you to control the direction ans distance. So how would they give you that kind of control in a real-time environment and make it fun?

I have had alot of fun with BG I, BG II, NWN I and NWN II and many others like the SSI gold box games and even the remake of Pool of Radiance with the D&D 3.0 system. I can hope that they find a way to continue the legacy of good computer RPG's like thes, but what I've heard so far doesn't sound like they will.

[DANTEIL]

I don't think this has been posted yet, but another interview about this:

http://www.tentonhammer.com/neverwinter/interviews/jack-emmert-aug-2010


Fun fact: This is going to be an OMG -- an Online Multiplayer Game :D

[Aloro]

-I love 4e rules (And I think I'm the only one on these forums that thinks that way. Please don't kill me. :()

Nah, I think they're a genuine improvement in some ways. E.g. every class has the same number of options with which to approach a given conflict. Instead of the fighter having one (1) option ("I hit it with my sword!") and wizards having roughly 452,905 options ("Hold on, I need to check my spell list; I'm sure I have something precisely fitting this occasion"), all classes have something approaching parity.

It's actually a fairly complicated set of rules, made accessible without being dumbed-down. But, yes, people get funny about rules changes, and many will decry and complain about any changes, even for the better.

[Xatasha]

My 1st impression of 4E was that they don't really want a table top game they want something to base the video games off of.

[kurand]

I have to disagree. I can only speak for myself when I say the multiplayer aspects were what drew me in and kept me playing various persistent worlds for years. Don't even think I ever finished a single player module. However, some people have to have agreed with me because for years the player driven community was pumping out way more content than was produced by the original creators.

The sheer volume of player created content is staggering, so its not unrealistic to assume some integration issues would come up. All in all I found it sometimes troublesome to set up worlds and servers but we eventually got all the scripts and mods doing everything we asked of them and more. Most people don't know that for years you could pretty much play any class/race in D&D lore on NWN1 mods patched with the NWNPRC (http://www.nwnprc.com/nwn/index.html) (even psionics, truenaming, epic spells, etc.) and later in NWN2 Kaedrins Custom Content (http://nwn2customcontent.wikidot.com/overview) amplified game play by huge leaps and bounds. Most of this content was directed at online persistent worlds but could also be ported locally to be ran in single player mods. Check those links out if you don't know what I'm talking about here.

So considering what additional content was accomplished on those earlier platforms, I think the big X factor here is how well they can translate that functionality and opportunity into the Forge component for the player driven community.

You don't take what you already have and resell it as something else without trying to make huge bucks doing it.

What I am saying is,this new co-op would be called NWN3 if they actually wanted a player community not a cash cow.

[kurand]

You don't take what you already have and resell it as something else without trying to make huge bucks doing it.

What I am saying is,this new co-op would be called NWN3 if they actually wanted a player community not a cash cow.

just read the ten ton hammer story,and it is basically NWN3 with a player run creation community.

Nothing from what i have read in this thread tells me it is any different than from what is happening now or in the past four years with betrayer.

It is an online chat room to meet other people and to play neverwinter,much like you would go to battle.net to play warcraft 3 against other people or NWN1 with other people or play any of the diablos with other people online but not an MMO.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

I like how they brag about having 5 classes, when even the 4e PHB1 has 8 (and there's about 35 classes total for 4e so far).

What next, a whole 4 races? (PHB1 has 8.)

Oh, and I think I saw somewhere in one of the interviews that it's going to be, at least at first, Heroic tier. That means a level cap of 10, which they aren't saying, assuming this is true. And 4e caps at 30.
By currently capping at 10, that means they don't have to have any Paragon Paths nor Epic Destinies complete (similar to Prestige Classes, for those who don't know anything about 4e), and only half the feats and powers in place, if that.

[Aloro]

I like how they brag about having 5 classes, when even the 4e PHB1 has 8 (and there's about 35 classes total for 4e so far).

What next, a whole 4 races? (PHB1 has 8.)

Oh, and I think I saw somewhere in one of the interviews that it's going to be, at least at first, Heroic tier. That means a level cap of 10, which they aren't saying, assuming this is true. And 4e caps at 30.
By currently capping at 10, that means they don't have to have any Paragon Paths nor Epic Destinies complete (similar to Prestige Classes, for those who don't know anything about 4e), and only half the feats and powers in place, if that.

Yeah, it doesn't sound terribly ambitious.

For me, it really comes down to the power and depth of the toolset though. NWN allowed us to do a lot of fun stuff.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

Sorry for the slightly off-topic question, but I'm curious... A lot of people here seem to really hate the 4th edition ruleset - would anybody care to elaborate, why that is? :confused:

Most of what I've heard is some version of "it's been oversimplified/MMO-ized". I heard the same thing about 2nd ed., Skills and Powers (aka 2.5), 3rd, 3.5......
Some people just like to whine. Some people really don't like change. I didn't particularly like shelling out for new books.

I figured out long ago, if you're roleplaying instead of working the numbers, it doesn't really matter what edition (or even system) you're using.

I didn't care much for the FR changes either, but most groups I know still play in the "old" Realms anyway.

[danzig138]

I"m not going to really touch the opinions on 4E (opinions. . . you know what they say), but DDO is the first online game I've ever played other than Age of Empires a couple of times,. so could someone explain or point me in the direction of an explanation about the difference between what DDO is and what they says this game is going to be? I mean, what the heck is the difference between an mmo and a cooperative online rpg?

[Corebreach]

Uhg .. Jack Emmert ... Isn't he the guy who butchered Star Wars and introduced Enhancement Diversification to CoH?
Shifting Star Wars Galaxies to the NGE without using the clutch involved most of Sony Online Entertainment's upper management. It did not involve Emmert as far as I know.

As for Jack and City of Heroes, there is this thread (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=211737).

[FluffyCalico]

For me its more of it being by cryptic then being 4E although I loathe 4E they messed up champions so much its criminal although thats not entirely their fault since SL messed up champions with his 6th downgrade. I might have been willing to try it since 4E is only one strike but they got two more that being cryptic and FR so 3 strikes and they are out.

How about every single book in 4E has tons of stuff they know is over powered but they leave it in there to sell the books and then about 3 months later after everyone has bought the new one and built their character around it they release a faq and nerf it to the ground destroying everyone characters to uselessness that had those abilities. The have done this about 15 times so far and 4E is still new.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

My 1st impression of 4E was that they don't really want a table top game they want something to base the video games off of.

It's the other way around. The wanted kids who were used to playing video games and watching pokemon like tv shows to have a wow/pokemon like tabletop game.

They also wanted to sell superpowercards and minitures.

[Xatasha]

It's the other way around. The wanted kids who were used to playing video games and watching pokemon like tv shows to have a wow/pokemon like tabletop game.

They also wanted to sell superpowercards and minitures.


The money is in the video games. I believe they think that the table top guys are already addicted and even tho they will pitch a fit....that they will cave in and buy 4E. I think it was designed to be used as a base rule set for any new computer D&D game coming out. Bottom line is I don't think they care about the table top players but instead want convert everyone to computer games.

[Natashaelle]

The money is in the video games. I believe they think that the table top guys are already addicted and even tho they will pitch a fit....that they will cave in and buy 4E. I think it was designed to be used as a base rule set for any new computer D&D game coming out. Bottom line is I don't think they care about the table top players but instead want convert everyone to computer games.

I agree with Lorien, sorry --

The "not-we" generation of younger _tabletop_ gamers (who are the ones spending the money nowadays) have a strong tendency to play tabletop minitiatures games, and 4th Ed. was clearly designed for that demographic.

4th Ed. is arguably *worse* as the basis for a computer game, because it's a nightmare hodgepodge of spot rules and exceptions. The inelegance of the design work on the game is starkly self-evident. The same statement could be made of both 1st and 2nd Ed. AD&D of course, but 3E & 3.5 had globally improved the internal structures of the game, so that they had a great deal more coherence.

[Aloro]

I"m not going to really touch the opinions on 4E (opinions. . . you know what they say), but DDO is the first online game I've ever played other than Age of Empires a couple of times,. so could someone explain or point me in the direction of an explanation about the difference between what DDO is and what they says this game is going to be? I mean, what the heck is the difference between an mmo and a cooperative online rpg?

That is a very fair question. It's likely that there won't be any shared areas like Stormreach, where you'll just see random people running around. Instead, you'll very probably only ever encounter the people that you specifically log on to play with. I don't know how they'll handle mission launching, especially given player-created content.

DDO is already light on the "shared world" part of MMOs anyhow, so I'm interested to see how this new game handles things.

[Aloro]

How about every single book in 4E has tons of stuff they know is over powered but they leave it in there to sell the books and then about 3 months later after everyone has bought the new one and built their character around it they release a faq and nerf it to the ground destroying everyone characters to uselessness that had those abilities. The have done this about 15 times so far and 4E is still new.

This is true of almost every gaming system ever developed, online and offline, and is especially applicable to every version of D&D thus far. As time passes, power creep is almost inevitable. Designers are pressured to release more and more powerful skills, feats, items, spells, etc. in order to motivate players to buy the book/expansion/whatever.

If you think power creep in 4e is bad, check out what happened to AD&D 2nd Edition. Youch.

[GoldyGopher]

If you think power creep in 4e is bad, check out what happened to AD&D 2nd Edition. Youch.

Let me think about this a second... AD&D (first edition) was released in 1977, the second edition in 1989. D&D Third Edition in 2000.

Yes there was power creep but it was added in over years. For example the 2e AD&D manual saw a series of optional rules in 1995 (6 years after release). 4e is what 3 years old and has already seen a doubling in 'powers' and 'skills' from the base rules. So I have to say 4e has a lot more power creep than AD&D saw.

[Damionic]

It's quite amusing to read posts and comments on DDO about another game..


Because a good percentage of noble well informed regular forum posters suddenly change into little brats when another game that is not Dungeons and Dragons Online : Ebberon Unlimited gets mentioned.

I've even made a list of the most used put downs that "highly rep'd" posters have said.

1. It's Dungeons and Dragon's 4th Edition = Fail
2. It's Cryptic = Fail
3. It probberly does not have DDO:EU's most beloved combat system = EPIC FAIL

These three by themselves drown out anyone else who has spent the time to say their peice.

Because I want to drag this thread back from the TrollStorm it has become im going to level the playing field.

1x. Dungeons and Dragons 4.0 is the newest and the most bug free version of the game..whether you want to shoot down something because its not your taste is mute..By insulting 4.0 you are insulting the same people that made 3.5.

If you like Windows XP..Don't B1tch about Windows 7!

2.x Cryptic is NOT Bioware..nor is it trying to be.

So please do not throw rocks because they are creating a different D&D Game.

Yes Champions Online was released ahead of itself and thus some unpopular decisions have been made to balance the game (It would have been better to wait a few months before release) but this has happened.

Cryptic is still quite new on the MMO field and dispite the comments thrown at them Champions Online is a GOOD game. (cannot vouch for starwars as its not my thing)

So treat them as a Whole..rather then (they did one thing wrong so the whole company sucks!)

They have made a REAL effort to listen to their Player Base and it shows (Latest example pushing back the Pet fix to get it right)

3x. It dosent really matter if the Neverwinter combat system is identical or better then DDO:EU.

This is ONE aspect that has kept Turbine in green for longer then it should.

If Turbine want's to compete with other MMO's down the road..then it needs to match the other area's of popular games..otherwise it will be remembered as a one trick pony and will lose customers as better games arrive.

So to recap....GROW UP!

And stop trashing other games and company's because this one has a LOT TO LEARN!

Damionic.

[Archetype]

Well, if it has the "Dragonborn" race in it anywhere it will indeed be an "automatic critical failure."
They are the main reason we refer to 4th Edition D&D as the "H.R. Pufnstuf D&D" Edition... :p

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb17/Drewseye/SARCASM/2926-More-Pufnstuf.jpg
Typical 4th Ed D&D Party

[Uska]

This is true of almost every gaming system ever developed, online and offline, and is especially applicable to every version of D&D thus far. As time passes, power creep is almost inevitable. Designers are pressured to release more and more powerful skills, feats, items, spells, etc. in order to motivate players to buy the book/expansion/whatever.

If you think power creep in 4e is bad, check out what happened to AD&D 2nd Edition. Youch.

Yes but the power creep in 4E is core rules in 2nd ed for 3.x it was all optional books so easily taken care of even without house rules just state core rules only. I never like the splat books much myself they added little but power creep and dont get me started on the skills and powers books

[Uska]

It's quite amusing to read posts and comments on DDO about another game..


Because a good percentage of noble well informed regular forum posters suddenly change into little brats when another game that is not Dungeons and Dragons Online : Ebberon Unlimited gets mentioned.

I've even made a list of the most used put downs that "highly rep'd" posters have said.

1. It's Dungeons and Dragon's 4th Edition = Fail
2. It's Cryptic = Fail
3. It probberly does not have DDO:EU's most beloved combat system = EPIC FAIL

These three by themselves drown out anyone else who has spent the time to say their peice.

Because I want to drag this thread back from the TrollStorm it has become im going to level the playing field.

1x. Dungeons and Dragons 4.0 is the newest and the most bug free version of the game..whether you want to shoot down something because its not your taste is mute..By insulting 4.0 you are insulting the same people that made 3.5.

If you like Windows XP..Don't B1tch about Windows 7!

2.x Cryptic is NOT Bioware..nor is it trying to be.

So please do not throw rocks because they are creating a different D&D Game.

Yes Champions Online was released ahead of itself and thus some unpopular decisions have been made to balance the game (It would have been better to wait a few months before release) but this has happened.

Cryptic is still quite new on the MMO field and dispite the comments thrown at them Champions Online is a GOOD game. (cannot vouch for starwars as its not my thing)

So treat them as a Whole..rather then (they did one thing wrong so the whole company sucks!)

They have made a REAL effort to listen to their Player Base and it shows (Latest example pushing back the Pet fix to get it right)

3x. It dosent really matter if the Neverwinter combat system is identical or better then DDO:EU.

This is ONE aspect that has kept Turbine in green for longer then it should.

If Turbine want's to compete with other MMO's down the road..then it needs to match the other area's of popular games..otherwise it will be remembered as a one trick pony and will lose customers as better games arrive.

So to recap....GROW UP!

And stop trashing other games and company's because this one has a LOT TO LEARN!

Damionic.

same company that continued 3.x not same people and yes I would insult them all day long and to their faces as well. Hasbro bought WOTC and ruined the game. not that 3.x wasnt anything but a money grab itself. and show me one better game thats even in the pipeline

[Missing_Minds]

Yes Champions Online was released ahead of itself and thus some unpopular decisions have been made to balance the game (It would have been better to wait a few months before release) but this has happened.

Cryptic is still quite new on the MMO field and dispite the comments thrown at them Champions Online is a [COLOR=white]GOOD game. (

**************

And stop trashing other games and company's because this one has a LOT TO LEARN

Yes you do have a lot to learn. Look at history and decide. Who MADE CoH? The company that became Cryptic. Under Cryptic they said a lot of "oh.. we can't do that! It would break the game!" Then they sold it to NCSoft.

A few months later several things that Cryptic said they couldn't do were done.

Emm.....

No, Cryptic has a **** poor record really. Great intention and ideas... but failure to live up to the hype they produce.

As for DnD versions... *shrugs* No system is as bug free as your are implying. Every system has its pros and cons. I've played 2, 3.x, and looked through 4. My opinion is still 3.x is the best of them while not trying to mimic and be like something else in addition to what it is.

Now it is fully possible due to the fact they are not making it a massive world to be played by everyone all in the same instance that the game could be quite successful at what it does. That their game engine may actually be able to preform under stress in such limited fashion unlike their MMO worlds. Honestly, in such a limited fashion, their engine better be able to handle it dam well or it is more crappy written than what I first suspected. Granted, they still have to fix their UI interface. There is a .5 to 1 full second delay between interface and actions even running at 60 fps. Maybe the latest update that just happened finally will fix that issue of theirs.

[Pyromaniac]

I'll be trying it out. There's really not that much to lose.

[danzig138]

DDO is already light on the "shared world" part of MMOs anyhow

Dang. What's not light like then? If I understand then, this may be more like playing something like Baldur's Gate except a couple other people will run the characters in your party instead of the computer (PCs instead of NPCs)?


And I would love something like DDO set in Planescape or Dark Sun (or Shadowrun or Battlelords for that matter).

[Bladedge]

Dungeons and Dragons 4.0 is the newest and the most bug free version of the game..whether you want to shoot down something because its not your taste is mute..By insulting 4.0 you are insulting the same people that made 3.5.[/COLOR] From what I read not everyone who work on 4e was happy with it even those who work on 3.x, and some of them even left WotC afterward.


2.x Cryptic is NOT Bioware..nor is it trying to be. Of course Cryptic is not Bioware. Bioware listens to their players and takes their input seriously and not release a half finish game. Why do you think gamers love Bioware games and cant wait for the sequels.


Yes Champions Online was released ahead of itself and thus some unpopular decisions have been made to balance the game (It would have been better to wait a few months before release) but this has happened.They still didn't learn their lesson. And now that CO and STO have been striped of most of the dev team, with all focus now on NW rather then spending the resources fixing up their two current games.



Cryptic is still quite new on the MMO field and dispite the comments thrown at them Champions Online is a GOOD game. (cannot vouch for starwars as its not my thing)

Cryptic is not new MMOs they been around since 2002, release CoH in 2004 and CoV in 2005. And they couldn't even get CO and STO online right.

[Xatasha]

I agree with Lorien, sorry --

The "not-we" generation of younger _tabletop_ gamers (who are the ones spending the money nowadays) have a strong tendency to play tabletop minitiatures games, and 4th Ed. was clearly designed for that demographic.

4th Ed. is arguably *worse* as the basis for a computer game, because it's a nightmare hodgepodge of spot rules and exceptions. The inelegance of the design work on the game is starkly self-evident. The same statement could be made of both 1st and 2nd Ed. AD&D of course, but 3E & 3.5 had globally improved the internal structures of the game, so that they had a great deal more coherence.

No, 4E is a simplified pale reflection of D&D with a rule set that will work a whole like better with a real time computer game. The hodgepodge feel to it is because its going to be for the computer game and table top is an afterthought.

Take 3E its huge with tons of feats and skill and spells. Many of which we will never see in DDO due to the fact you need a DM to make them useful. 4E is so simple and undefined it will be much more easy to make computer games following those rules.

Again the money isn't with the table top players anymore

[Aloro]

Dang. What's not light like then? If I understand then, this may be more like playing something like Baldur's Gate except a couple other people will run the characters in your party instead of the computer (PCs instead of NPCs)?

And I would love something like DDO set in Planescape or Dark Sun (or Shadowrun or Battlelords for that matter).

Yeah, that's kinda how NWN worked. You could play premade content or player-generated content in small groups, which you'd join with in a game lobby. I expect the game lobby to be inside the setting this time instead of basically a browser window.

Whether we will see Planescape or Dark Sun stuff, or any other setting for that matter, all depends on the flexibility of the toolset. With good enough tools, players will manifest all of that.

I do wonder how they'll cope with the balance issues inherent in allowing players to craft content in a shared world. I hope they can learn from the failures of the Mission Architect in CoH. I also wonder whether there will be a DM client, since that was an integral part of the way a lot of people used NWN.

Could be fun. I sure did love NWN back in the day.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

How about every single book in 4E has tons of stuff they know is over powered but they leave it in there to sell the books and then about 3 months later after everyone has bought the new one and built their character around it they release a faq and nerf it to the ground destroying everyone characters to uselessness that had those abilities. The have done this about 15 times so far and 4E is still new.

That only works if you bother to read the updates :D

[Corebreach]

whether you want to shoot down something because its not your taste is mute..By insulting 4.0 you are insulting the same people that made 3.5.
It is reasonable to expect to dislike an upcoming MMORPG because it's based on a PnP rule system you dislike.

Disliking something is not necessarily insulting it, either. Nor is being critical of it.

And your notion that it is somehow illegitimate to dislike one WotC product but like another is groundless on its face, notwithstanding the fact that 3.0 and 4.0 did not have identical design staff.


Cryptic is still quite new on the MMO field
Demonstrably false. Cryptic has been making MMORPGs as long as Blizzard, give or take a year, and has launched three titles (or four, depending on how you count City of Villains).


If you're earnestly trying to rein a flamewar in, you need to avoid such glaring errors.

[Xatasha]

It is reasonable to expect to dislike an upcoming MMORPG because it's based on a PnP rule system you dislike.

Disliking something is not necessarily insulting it, either. Nor is being critical of it.

And your notion that it is somehow illegitimate to dislike one WotC product but like another is groundless on its face, notwithstanding the fact that 3.0 and 4.0 did not have identical design staff.


Demonstrably false. Cryptic has been making MMORPGs as long as Blizzard, give or take a year, and has launched three titles (or four, depending on how you count City of Villains).


If you're earnestly trying to reign a flamewar in, you need to avoid such glaring errors.


Also a number of people quit WotC due to 4E and the direction its going.

[Damionic]

I redact my statement that CRYPTIC are new to the MMO Scene.

But I stand by my statement that their approach to customer relations far exceeds Turbine in one year of me knowing them to 4 years+ of Turbine.

[Natashaelle]

Disliking something is not necessarily insulting it, either. Nor is being critical of it.

Exactly. I personally dislike both 4E and the design goals behind it, rather warmly, but that doesn't mean that I'm calling it an unprofessional product or anything... :rolleyes:

[KKDragonLord]

This game will be a failure, but i will at least check it out to see if for a fluke of destiny it manages to get something right.

My impressions from reading about it gave me these thoughts.

A) The co-op RPG bul**** Atari is trying to pull off to evade lawsuits seems sketchy at best, but as long as there isnt a place where all players in the server can meet, i.e. as long as it works like a multiplayer online game such as Team Fortress 2, they can probably pull it off.

B) The report stated that there would be 5 classes, Edit: nvm: Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, Wizard, Cleric... what are they thinking i wonder?

C) As much as i currently hate 4e as a roleplaying system, i did try running it for about 2 years before i gave up on it, and pretty much got to understand it thoroughly. In essence its a hollow shell of 3.5 that is focused on combat, while atempting to simplify gameplay in a way that the players will actually know the rules when it comes to their character, stripping out much of the complexity of 3.5. In Theory that would work for a better game, in practice it doesnt do so good at all. If i wanted a board game, i'd play a board game. So my major beef with 4e was the way it killed roleplay more effectively even than 3.5 did compared to 2edAd&d.

The major flaw of 4e is that it plays like a videogame but it should be an Rpg, so if the computer manages all the work, it should probably play good, since role playing (in the true meaning of the term) isnt really a part of eletronic gaming (for most people anyway).

In Short, this could be interesting and turn out better than expected, the 4e rules arent necessarily a bad thing.

D) It will be based in Forgotten Realms of 4e? That sucks real bad, Faerun was truly Reaped when they adapted it to 4e.

E) The game will have much in common with DDO considering the Instanced Party Dungeons theme. The gameplay though will probably follow the style of Cryptic MMOs, and 4e is inherently a pnp adaptation of WoW gameplay so it will probably follow that line of play. Which is something that doesnt interest me in the least. DDO ruined me for other mmos.

F) Player created Dungeons? Now thats something that may save the game from being a flop. Lets see how well they pull this off, it may turn the game into the LittleBigPlanet of D&D or it might turn out to be a poorly implemented feature with very limited usability, we'll have to wait and see, this can Make or Break this game.

G) Wizards is working with them, Salvatore is working with them, this all because they have to stick to the 4e brand to try and make it stronger, this pretty much confirms the sad realization that there is probably not going to be another game based on 3.5 or 2ed ever again, that makes me a sad panda :(

[Feylina]

gross.

cryptic and atari.

i lost all respect for cryptic after the miserable failure of star trek online and atari is well atari :P

[Mr_Ed7]

Well, imagine you are in the late 70s and you need to buy a ride. Then you find that nice muscle car Dungeons and Dragons, which is inventive and has a unique feel when you ride.
Later, in the 80s and 90s you see that same ride being upgraded to versions 2 and 3, which didn’t changed much of it core mechanics and driving experience.
Then, after the millennium a group of designers decides that this muscle car is outdated and its old public won’t provide enough income for the product to survive in the future.
They decide to redesign a genuine American model in a Japanese-international hybrid, which of course it’s not Japanese, neither international and much less American. Without a true identity this new model fails to bring new customers at the same time it alienates the old customers, removing references based on decades of riding it.


I was going to put my 2gp in BUT this is one of the best analogies of ANYTHING...EVER!

D&D the muscle car of games!

[Skirmish]

Power to the old gaming farts!

NOTE:
White: Relevant, quick read.
Purple: Backstory/Examples that explain my personal opinion.

Backstory/History
As several here, I am an old Red box/Blue box veteran and left D&D as my primary tabletop RPG some time ago when my primary gaming group dissolved and my life was too busy for me to actually get any proper sit-down gaming time in. I shifted my focus to online. But, after the tear I shed for TSR, I picked up the Eberron(3.5) books and found the setting interesting and fresh. I started playing again briefly shortly before 4.0 hit the shelves. That was pretty much the end of my buying any D&D books other than a possible sourcebook that has some cool ideas in it. But, it's not likely.

I played the original Neverwinter Nights for some time and thought it well done and a fun game to play. Neverwinter Nights II wasn't nearly as in depth and seemed just more of the same with different graphics. The original game's single player story line was massive and would take even the hardcore players at least a week straight to finish. The second storyline was about 20hrs tops. My friends and I played a regular game of NN I run by a friend that was extremely well done. We all built our 'homes' for our character based on our history and how we came to the area. And the DM placed them in his map accordingly so that we became fully integrated into his world. It was awesome and the absolute epitome of what the game was meant to be. The tabletop game brought to the internet with fun graphics.

As many stated, 4.0 seemed to strip the role-play out of the game so that the focus was on the combat system. To me, it seemed like the rules lawyers at Wizards took over writing the books. Back in the old days I remember that combat was the least important part of the game to us. It was a major part when it came up and we liked kicking a*%. But, it was only a small part of the overall game. Besides, while you can look back on the combat after the game and describe it like a movie you just watched describing the major hits/dodges etc. During the major combats it breaks down to 30seconds of in-game time taking about an hour or two to roll out in the dice depending on the size of the part/number of enemies.

Examples of what the old farts deal with nowadays:
One of my old gaming buddies from high school told me of his experiences after he moved up to Maryland to try and get back into gaming. The 4.0 groups he found hanging out at his local stores weren't really roleplaying oriented. They were all about min-maxing their stats and never really fleshed out their characters... much like most people on our D&D video games such as Neverwinter and DDO. He picked up copies of the primary 4.0 books he needed to catch up on the rules, read up, and joined up with one of the groups that seemed like good people.

When he joined one group he already had a backstory in mind, justifications for why his character had his favored enemy, in-game biases/hatreds both socially and racially, and ideas of how he might alter the concept to fit the game if needed for him to mesh with the already existing party. When he asked the DM and the party about his character ideas... they just stared at him. He was bombarded with questions like how he came up with it all, where he wrote it all down, how much time he had put into it, etc. The answers were "This morning, I didn't write it down, about 20 or 30min while I was doing things around the house."

My own experience in my last opportunity to join a group was similar. The party had a couple cool characters, concept wise. But, by cool concept, I simply mean that they were playing non-standard races/classes. But, beyond that, it was all just about the stats. When I heard what they were playing, I asked about it. The answers were all the same. "Oh, I just wanted this racial bonus/stat and this class kicks a%$." was about as far as their character development went. I lasted one night and came back to DDO.

The focus has left roleplaying and has shifted to the rules lawyers that many of us wanted to toss through a window some nights after a game ground to a halt after having to argue about how something the GM did, that while really cool, original, and even beneficial to the party. But it "wasn't in the rules!". It's just not as fun for us old fogies. My only question is, did the game change the players or did what the players wanted in their game change the game?

Unless they do something really creative, which it doesn't sound like they are. This will simply be Neverwinter Nights III with a different name. Based on the 4.0 rules, this will probably be fun for about a week. (as once people started making their own dungeons, that's about how long it took before the first "trainer" module was available so you could run it and race your character to lvl 20 and gear them out with uber loot without ever actually facing an opponent/interact with anyone.)

I'm glad to an extent, as it means DDO will stand strong as my home for my D&D fix.

[Wrendd]

I started playing CoH the day it was released (no beta/3 day head start) and have developed a deep seated and unending hatred of Jack Emmert. While I agree with the above poster that Cryptic makes visually impressive games, and they even get some of the gameply right, Jack will definately screw up whatever game he is in charge of.

He has stated repeatedly that he has a "vision" for the games he is involved in and his "vision" take priority over everything else. That would be acceptable if he viewed MMOs the same way his players do. He once said (in the CoH forums) that he found enjoyment in failing repeatedly and then succeeding. I agree that this can be a good experience, but when hi "vision" is to have his players so ineffective that the simplest tasks become a major grind fest that is a problem.

He is also well known for telling half-turths or even out-right lies to the players of his games. This happened often in the early days of CoH. "I promise you that there is no plans for a major change to the enhancement system or to the general use of powers and abilities" (not a direct quote, but pretty close) in the CoH forums, and then less than a month later the update with Enhancement Diversification(ED) came out. That was the single largest change/nerf I have ever seen in an MMO. And a change like that was not programmed in the couple of weeks between his statement and it's release. (Enhancement Diversification changed the way almost every power in CoH was used and slotted/geared and forced 99.9% of the players to remake their characters)

Once Cryptic was out and NCsoft took over things started to change. They improved on the ED system and made it a good part of the game (something I would have thought impossible). Things that were stated as impossible were done, other things were done to improve the game that Jack (who was called Statesman in CoH) said would never happen and would not have untill he left. Positron (the new lead dev) has proved to be an excellent leader of the game and has corrected most of the horrible decesions that Jack made, but it took him years to do it.

Bottom line: If Jack Emmert is in charge of a game I will not go anywhere near it and I expect any game he is a part of to be made unplayable within 2 updates from launch. If he leaves the game I will give it a few months to start fixing itself then try it, but not while he is involved with it.

[Corebreach]

[Emmert] is also well known for telling half-turths or even out-right lies to the players of his games. This happened often in the early days of CoH. "I promise you that there is no plans for a major change to the enhancement system or to the general use of powers and abilities" (not a direct quote, but pretty close) in the CoH forums, and then less than a month later the update with Enhancement Diversification(ED) came out. That was the single largest change/nerf I have ever seen in an MMO.
His exact statement was "we’ve finished making large changes to the power sets", which was technically true but blatantly misleading. ED changed the amount of bonus strength you could add to your powers' properties by using CoH's version of gear. Your powers' base strength didn't change, but after ED, mid-to-late-game gear could only boost it half as much as before. It had a huge impact on how strong all characters could be.

Making matters worse, the CoH community first learned about ED through playtest leaks from the closed City of Villains beta. ED had been planned for a while -- long enough for the new classes and powers in CoV to be designed with it in mind -- yet Cryptic planned on keeping it private until the last moment. Whether that approach would have resulted in less outcry is moot. They explained the whole system early in response to the leak, but it was damage repair at that point, not straightforwardness.