HoTs for Clerics

[Sleepingcap]

I have been playing my cleric actively (and successfully surprisingly enough) by mainly healing via divine healing. Ofcourse i doesn't replace instant heals, but they are great nevertheless.

So here is a suggestion - more HoTs (HoT = Heal over Time) spells for Clerics. And something that does stack with another HoT from another cleric (you overriding your own HoT should merely refresh it). Based on spellpoints, not so much on your turn undead charges.

Ideas/comments?

[Angelus_dead]

In D&D the pertinent spells are Lesser Vigor, Vigor, Mass Lesser Vigor, and Vigorous Circle.

In D&D Druids access the HOT spells at the same level Clerics do, while they are delayed in learning Cure spells and Heal, making HOTs relatively more important for Druids. Thus there is some assumption that the Druid release may see those spells added.

It could be a good idea to exclude Extend metamagic from applying to HOT spells; otherwise the spells would have to be balanced such that using the non-Extended versions is underpowered.

There are various major design implications to adding HOTs, which I will not describe fully here. A problem is that they decouple interactivity of party cooperation. But there is the benefit that they help reduce the excessively increased importance of high hitpoints.

[AestorTheKnight]

To OP, yes its a good idea - Id like to see it - Especially for Clerics. As something to differentiate them from FvS, and perhaps to balance them, like the new Radiant Servant prestige class did.

To Angelus Dead - good reply, and useful Info. :)

[puttster3]

Do the Vigor's cost less sp (spell slots in pnp), heal more overtime, bypass Warforged currative efficiency?
Would it's use be more in comon to a healing shield to technically merely lessen damage in battle?

[Visty]

It could be a good idea to exclude Extend metamagic from applying to HOT spells; otherwise the spells would have to be balanced such that using the non-Extended versions is underpowered..

RAI extend isnt that useful anyway as the duration caps on those spells

[Angelus_dead]

RAW extend isnt that useful anyway as the duration caps on those spells
Why would a capped duration override the Extend Spell feat? Would you say that Fireball's cap on damage overrides Empower Spell?

By RAW, Lesser Vigor lasts 10 rounds + 1/level, max 15. Extend Spell gives spells double their duration, meaning 20 rounds + 2/level, max 30.

Doubling the duration (and thus healing output) is a weak effect in D&D, because combats already don't last 15 rounds and it probably won't be needed to refill your allies when not in combat. But in DDO putting Extend on Vigor spells would be far more powerful, as you double not only the total healing output but also the amount of battle time until the buff needs to be refreshed.

It might be a good idea for the DDO version to change it so that the Vigor buff can expire in two ways: either by running out of seconds or by using up healing ticks. For example, Lesser Vigor might give 15 ticks over 90 seconds, with the ticks not being used when the subject was already at full health. Extend would change that to 180 seconds but leave it at 15 ticks: the players benefit by not needing to repeat the spell as much, but the net healing provided is no better.

Also note that the DDO Vigor spells would be better if the per-tick healing was increased from the 1-3 it gives in D&D, although the time between ticks could be raised to compensate. Having a constant +1 or +2 hp on you nearly all day long gets bothersome, and rounding makes it harder to give the correct benefit from items and enhancements.

[Dwane_Diblie]

I still can not beleave how good my cleric is with AOE HOTs that regenerate overtime. So while this is a good idea I feel it is not 100% needed. I have almost stopped using spell points as a result and only realy need them in missions where I also need to Turn Undead. :D

[Visty]

Why would a capped duration override the Extend Spell feat? Would you say that Fireball's cap on damage overrides Empower Spell?

By RAW, Lesser Vigor lasts 10 rounds + 1/level, max 15. Extend Spell gives spells double their duration, meaning 20 rounds + 2/level, max 30.

no it doesnt, extend doesnt change the cap

read the faq to persistent spell and vigor, there its specificly stated that the cap gets removed with persistent spell

by your logic it would just be extended to 24h, but it isnt

[Angelus_dead]

Do the Vigor's cost less sp (spell slots in pnp), heal more overtime, bypass Warforged currative efficiency?
Would it's use be more in comon to a healing shield to technically merely lessen damage in battle?
In D&D, the Vigor spells:
1. Provide more total hitpoints than the Cure spells of similar level.
2. Suffer from Warforged positive energy resistance, meaning that some of them would be rounded down to zero per tick.
3. The usage in D&D is to cheaply refill hitpoints between battles; instead of CLW wands, a Cleric/Bard carries a sack full of Lesser Vigor wands. They're the best (non-eternal) hp per gp ratio you can buy. In DDO that function would not work as much, because players don't let so much time go by between encounters.

[Angelus_dead]

no it doesnt, extend doesnt change the cap
Do you have any reason to think that?

The Extend Feat doubles the duration from what it would have normally been. If the normal duration of Lesser Vigor was 15 rounds, then Extend makes it 30 rounds.


read the faq to persistent spell and vigor, there its specificly stated that the cap gets removed with persistent spell
Yes, which demonstrates that you are incorrect.

According to you, a maximum in a spell description overrides metamagics. If that were true, then using Persistent Spell with Lesser Vigor would last for 15 rounds, not 14400 rounds it actually does. Therefore, Extend Spell on Lesser Vigor lasts 30 rounds.

That FAQ is there to explain what the rules mean for people who had trouble figuring it out themselves: it's not providing whole new rules.


by your logic it would just be extended to 24h, but it isnt
Do you know what you're doing?

[Visty]

Do you have any reason to think that?

The Extend Feat doubles the duration from what it would have normally been. If the normal duration of Lesser Vigor was 15 rounds, then Extend makes it 30 rounds.
thats what you say but do the rules too?





According to you, a maximum in a spell description overrides metamagics.

yes

in the case of persistent spell its a replacement, not a very long extend thats why the cap gets removed

and just for you i googled it



Main 3.5e FAQ
===
The vigor series of spells (found in Complete Divine)
raise an interesting question. Does the built-in maximum
duration of each spell limitation override the effect of the
Extend Spell feat?

Yes. Extend Spell still increases the spell's duration, but
only up to the spell's listed maximum duration. Use either the
normal maximum duration or the doubled duration, whichever
is less. If a 7th-level druid used Extend Spell on her vigor spell,
the duration could not increase beyond 25 rounds.

[Angelus_dead]

thats what you say but do the rules too?
Yes, the rules do say that Extend Spell doubles the duration of the spell to which it is attached.


in the case of persistent spell its a replacement, not a very long extend thats why the cap gets removed
Do you have any rule to support that claim?

[Angelus_dead]

and just for you i googled it
You seem to be confused between FAQ and RAW.

You claimed that Extend won't work by RAW. FAQs are not rule modifications. It is well-known that the official D&D FAQ often violates the rules (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/287350-what-do-you-think-faq.html).

[Visty]

ah i get it, youre mad cause i used RAW :rolleyes:

ill edit it for you to RAI

[Angelus_dead]

ah i get it, youre mad cause i used RAW :rolleyes:
That is clearly incorrect.


ill edit it for you to RAI
That's still incorrect: By RAI, Extend benefits Vigor. The published FAQ is in violation of the designers' intention, which is that metamagics which say they apply a multiplicative increase will apply a multiplicative increase.

[Visty]

and where does it say that extend increases the maximum duration?
right, nowhere

it just says it increases the duration. you cant power a spell up beyond its own limitations

[Oathbound]

Clerics should get chain heal.

Oh sorry.... wrong game.

Seriously though - I am very much looking forward to the introduction of the Druid class. It'll be fun to have a little more differentiation of healing classes in this game.

[Angelus_dead]

and where does it say that extend increases the maximum duration?
In the description for Extend Spell it says that Extend increases the duration. There is no limitation made as to some aspect of the duration being ineligible for that benefit.


it just says it increases the duration. you cant power a spell up beyond its own limitations
If metamagic feats can't improve spells to do things they couldn't do anyway, then metamagic feats are worthless. The limitation of Fireball is 10d6 damage. If Empower and Maximize can't increase it to above 10d6, then what's the reason to have Empower and Maximize?

Look, it's simple:
Q. What does Extend Spell do to the duration of a spell?
A. Double it.

Q. What is the duration of Lesser Vigor?
A. For most casters, 15 rounds.

Q. What is double 15?
A. 30.

[Visty]

In the description for Extend Spell it says that Extend increases the duration. There is no limitation made as to some aspect of the duration being ineligible for that benefit.


If metamagic feats can't improve spells to do things they couldn't do anyway, then metamagic feats are worthless. The limitation of Fireball is 10d6 damage. If Empower and Maximize can't increase it to above 10d6, then what's the reason to have Empower and Maximize?

the cap at fireball is 10d6
empower doesnt circumvent that cap it boosts the damage itself
you dont add more dices (thats what the cap cares about) you add more damage

or has an empowered fireball suddenly a cap of 15d6? cause you know 10d6*1,5=15d6

actually, that example shows quite nicely why extend doesnt double the cap on vigor


Look, it's simple:
Q. What does Epower Spell do to the damage of a spell?
A. 1.5 time it (is there a word for that? well you know what i mean)

Q. What is the damage of Fireball?
A. For most casters, 10d6.

Q. What is 1.5 times 10d6?
A. 15d6.

except that: thats not true as 15d6 =/= 10d6*1,5 damagewise