Tumble - Worthwhile?

[Coldin]

The latest update removed the ability to tumble while under various effects. No more tumbling while harried, in fog, slowed, ham-stringed, chained, and a few other effects.

Which leads me to ask, is there any real reason to take tumble anymore? To get an AC bonus you need to have the Mobility feat, and only fighters get an enhancement to increase that bonus. Reducing fall damage is only worth it at low level or in specific cases since Featherfall items are fairly commonplace these days. Using a tumble to avoid damage could be worthwhile if the server updated your position during the tumble, and not until after it completes.

So, should players keep putting points into tumble, or just start to ignore it like swim?

[Depravity]

So, should players keep putting points into tumble, or just start to ignore it like swim?

Arguably, swim is more important w/ underwater combat showing up :D.

[Deathseeker]

The latest update removed the ability to tumble while under various effects. No more tumbling while harried, in fog, slowed, ham-stringed, chained, and a few other effects.

Which leads me to ask, is there any real reason to take tumble anymore? To get an AC bonus you need to have the Mobility feat, and only fighters get an enhancement to increase that bonus. Reducing fall damage is only worth it at low level or in specific cases since Featherfall items are fairly commonplace these days. Using a tumble to avoid damage could be worthwhile if the server updated your position during the tumble, and not until after it completes.

So, should players keep putting points into tumble, or just start to ignore it like swim?

I wouldn't quite put it in the class of swim, heal, repair, etc in terms of uselessness as I sometimes enjoy putting extra points in it so I can avoid using featherfall (because Im too lazy to switch gear before/while falling). But it's not exactly on par with UMD or Intimidate in terms of usefulness either. I'd call it "remotely useful" as opposed to useless.

I'd like to see it changed so it had a bit more meaningful use, as the act of tumbling is representative of the "active combat" that makes DDO different than so many other MMO's. Maybe give an AC bonus while tumbling equal to tumble skill / 10, rounded up (and then tack on the +4 from Mobility on top of that). Dunno, just a bit more incentive to use it during combat would be nice due to the active nature of the tumble animation.

Then one could make a truly epic build...the Halfling Intumbletank!

Ok, maybe not quite...

[WestportStan]

Coldin my friend,
You are forgetting the coolness factor of the flip at tumble 30 and up.
Is it important? no.
Is it cool and fun? Heck Yea!
Love,
Nimblewil

[Modinator0]

Arguably, swim is more important w/ underwater combat showing up :D.
or not... the underwater combat is on the ground, no swimming involved XD

[Depravity]

or not... the underwater combat is on the ground, no swimming involved XD

And that's what I get for not following the llama.
*sigh*
I'll just find a broom and sweep my shattered hopes and dreams into a corner, shall I?

[Hambo]

Don't forget that Tumble will help absorb damage when falling/jumping down from a proportional distance.

This weekend, when I dropped down to the chamber where you complete the puzzle to open the hatch in the floor my Sorc with 0 Tumble took 10pts damage... Most of my other alts, with at least 4 Tumble don't get hurt at all.

[Modinator0]

Don't forget that Tumble will help absorb damage when falling/jumping down from a proportional distance.

This weekend, when I dropped down to the chamber where you complete the puzzle to open the hatch in the floor my Sorc with 0 Tumble took 10pts damage... Most of my other alts, with at least 4 Tumble don't get hurt at all.
yup thats useful unless you're a monk (slow fall) or have access to a feather-fall item.... which everyone does... at level 1. hrm :\

[Diyon]

Coldin my friend,
You are forgetting the coolness factor of the flip at tumble 30 and up.
Is it important? no.
Is it cool and fun? Heck Yea!
Love,
Nimblewil

Back flips ftw!

[Depravity]

yup thats useful unless you're a monk (slow fall) or have access to a feather-fall item.... which everyone does... at level 1. hrm :\

I used to run an attempt at an Acro II intimitank, the combination of tumble and wallsliding skills often meant I got places well ahead of folks who were relying on their glider items. He was darned good Cholthuzz bait, among other things. Being able to do a capped jump off the tavern in meridia and take no damage was somewhat gratifying too. Think of it as saving a precious, precious gear slot....which has to be sacrificed to a +15 tumble item. :D

On the "go big or go home" front, when MrCow tested tumbling speeds, there appeared to be no upper limit. Each rank in tumble reduces the time for the associated animation, while distance remains the same. Somewhere in the low 50's, iirc, tumble speed was equivalent to a hasted character w/out barb or monk passive speed boost. In theory, getting it up into the 60's should produce a character that can move at better than hasted speeds all the time. More of a party trick than an actual use. But as WestportStan and Diyon noted, you look good outrunning the party.

[Lissyl]

yup thats useful unless you're a monk (slow fall) or have access to a feather-fall item.... which everyone does... at level 1. hrm :\

Everyone has that at level 1?

I need to turn in a bug ticket, I didn't get my Ring of Feathers mailed to me when I created my first character. Or second. Third. Eighth. Tenth.

Nor has a single one of them ever laid eyes on it, not only in MY loot but in any loot of any party I've ever completed STK with. ~Ever~. I'm convinced it's a myth. :)

When I made my first non-tumble char, I had no idea that tumble actually affected jumping damage. I remember jumping off the middle of the steps by Linus Weir in Korthos (Secret of the Storehouse qg) and taking a point of damage. I was like...***?!?

[Diyon]

Everyone has that at level 1?

I need to turn in a bug ticket, I didn't get my Ring of Feathers mailed to me when I created my first character. Or second. Third. Eighth. Tenth.

Nor has a single one of them ever laid eyes on it, not only in MY loot but in any loot of any party I've ever completed STK with. ~Ever~. I'm convinced it's a myth. :)

When I made my first non-tumble char, I had no idea that tumble actually affected jumping damage. I remember jumping off the middle of the steps by Linus Weir in Korthos (Secret of the Storehouse qg) and taking a point of damage. I was like...***?!?

He means the Cloak of Feather Fall from one of the Korthos quest end rewards.

[Hutoth]

useful as ever to have 1 tumble to speed up movement waist-deep water and the like, when you aren't harried etc.

I would like to see higher levels of tumble giving benefits such as:

small bonus to ref save (maybe +1 per 10 tumble)
ability to tumble through mobs (maybe requiring minimum tumble level)
ability to tumble while harried, stenched etc. (by making it a big minus to tumble skill rather than blanket ban)
other such little boons

[Lissyl]

He means the Cloak of Feather Fall from one of the Korthos quest end rewards.

Ahh, that one, yah. That thing has saved me enough times...but I still take enough damage from falling that I have to put at least ~some~ into Tumble. I think it stands out most on my fighter though, who takes damage if she's standing on a small paperback book. :)

[Bunker]

IIRC, the higher your tumble skill, the quicker and farther you tumble. I do not recall there being a cap on the tumble skill like there is with the jump skill (40 I think).

[Karavek]

The latest update removed the ability to tumble while under various effects. No more tumbling while harried, in fog, slowed, ham-stringed, chained, and a few other effects.

Which leads me to ask, is there any real reason to take tumble anymore? To get an AC bonus you need to have the Mobility feat, and only fighters get an enhancement to increase that bonus. Reducing fall damage is only worth it at low level or in specific cases since Featherfall items are fairly commonplace these days. Using a tumble to avoid damage could be worthwhile if the server updated your position during the tumble, and not until after it completes.

So, should players keep putting points into tumble, or just start to ignore it like swim?

As an avid tumbler in DDO I totally agree with you. This nerf to the mobility tumbling skill allowed during situations that left the less agile in trouble was the only real benefit accessable by every class.

I would of been fine if the various effects had DCs for tumble to meet but to outright disable tumble in them was far to heavy handed a nerf bat. I just returned to the game a few weeks ago and hace the last few days really noticed this nerf effecting me.

I personally feel monks,rogues, and bards should all have a mobility line of enhancments and gain the mobility feat for free by lvl 3 or so. Tumbling does not let us fight back, which is contrary to how I recall tumbling being used by old thief acrobats who gained defense and attack bonuses while tumbling, also being able to move though an occupied bit of area without being vulnerable.

Yet they hurt us tumbling. I think we should definatly be able to do many things with tumbling including while stealthed. Spring attack should have an additional effect of making us attack while tumbling once our skill is high enough, so we could tumble past giants legs cutting thier tendons classic style.

Tumble needs love not nerfs, hear us devs

[Bunker]

I think in NWN, every 5 levels of tumble granted a +1 passive bonus to AC. My rogue wouldn't mind and extra +29-30 AC, how bout yours? :) :)

[Pugsley]

I think in NWN, every 5 levels of tumble granted a +1 passive bonus to AC. My rogue wouldn't mind and extra +29-30 AC, how bout yours? :) :)

It was every 10 skill ranks, but yeah.


Arguably, swim is more important w/ underwater combat showing up :D.

I'm sure there would be some unlimited underwater breathing buff or something they gave you at the start of the quest.

[Bunker]

It was every 10 skill ranks, but yeah.



I'm sure there would be some unlimited underwater breathing buff or something they gave you at the start of the quest.

Ok, so 10-15 AC more in tumble skill. I can dig it.

[Esserbe]

It was every 10 skill ranks, but yeah.

No, it really was every 5, which made it a very, very useful skill in that game.

[zztophat]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm


Synergy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#skillSynergy)



If you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble, you get a +2 bonus on Balance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm) and Jump (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm) checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Jump (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm), you get a +2 bonus on Tumble checks.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#tumble



DC: 35 Free stand.
Free Stand

The character can stand up from prone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#prone) as a free action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions) (instead of as a move-equivalent action).
The chance to get up instantly after being knocked down I would think is a good enough reason to have 35 tumble.

The two things I quoted there are not game breaking and I think would make some nice additions to make tumble a worthwhile investment.

[Bunker]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#tumble

The chance to get up instantly after being knocked down I would think is a good enough reason to have 35 tumble.

The two things I quoted there are not game breaking and I think would make some nice additions to make tumble a worthwhile investment.

I like the second one. Able to instantly get up after being knocked down, I can get behind that idea.

[Dwarfo]

It was every 10 skill ranks, but yeah.

It was every 5 ranks.

i remember my 98 AC rogue.....good times

[Bunker]

Ok, so every 5 ranks :)

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff288/bunkist2007/ScreenShot00305.jpg

:)

[zztophat]

Ok, so every 5 ranks :)

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff288/bunkist2007/ScreenShot00305.jpg

:)

This is why some people don't have tumble, you're hogging it all.

[Draccus]

IIRC, D&D 3.0 gave an AC point for every 5 ranks. 3.5e changed it to 10 ranks.

Tumble, imo, is a playstyle skill. If you have reasonable twitch skills and undestand the benefits, then tumble can be very useful. Assuming we're talking about characters that have a lot of skill points and that Tumble is a class skill, it's a good place to put points. A rogue starting with 14 int, for example, has 10 skill points per level up to level 7 and then 11 after eating a +2 tome. With 11 skill points, what would you pick other than tumble, listen?

Spot
Search
Disable
Open Locks
Jump
Balance
Hide
MS
Diplomacy
UMD

That's 10 skills. What's left is Tumble, Listen, Swim, Perform, Haggle, Bluff, and Concentration. I think the choice is obvious.

So what I recommend for rogues, is that dex rogues take full ranks of jump and split ranks in balance and tumble until level 7, taking full ranks after that. Strength rogues should swap jump for balance.

So if we agree that there's plenty of skill points for some characters to take Tumble, what good is it?

First, there is no faster way to get out of the swing radius of a mob than to tumble. After years of tumbling, I can tumble out or away from a mob instinctively and FAR faster than backing out or turning and running. With a skill in the 40s, a single tumble moves you a looooong way.

Second, the damage mitigation on a fall can't be ignored. The "just wear a feather fall item" advice is great when you're level 7 but once you have every slot full of critical gear, you're going to be swapping items to keep feather fall active. Not a huge deal and the damage isn't very much but a low-hp character like a rogue can use all the help he can get.

[Carpone]

Turbine could have simply scaled Tumble instead of allowing 1 rank to be the end-all-be-all of what was required to avoid watery terrain and chains. Instead they completely gutted the skill, aside from aesthetic backflips. I'd really love to understand the reasoning behind this design decision, but Turbine fails to communicate that way.

[Diyon]

3.5e changed it to 10 ranks.

Either you are mistaken or I somehow missed a very important point to one of my favorite skills.

As far as I remember, tumble does NOTHING for AC in PnP, you use it to avoid AoO. Or other crazy stuff. I'll be getting out my books to check this now.

[dcp101]

PnP never gave a flat out AC bonus with Tumble. They were situational AC bonuses. Neverwinter gave flat AC bonuses for every 5 (in part 1) and 10 (in part 2).

[Draccus]

PnP never gave a flat out AC bonus with Tumble. They were situational AC bonuses. Neverwinter gave flat AC bonuses for every 5 (in part 1) and 10 (in part 2).

That was it. NWN1 (3.0e) gave one every 5. NWN2 (3.5e) gave one every 10. My bad. Thanks for the correction.

[Bunker]

Turbine could have simply scaled Tumble instead of allowing 1 rank to be the end-all-be-all of what was required to avoid watery terrain and chains. Instead they completely gutted the skill, aside from aesthetic backflips. I'd really love to understand the reasoning behind this design decision, but Turbine fails to communicate that way.

Tumble does scale in distance and speed, but as far as greater benifit to AC and such, it does not. Currently ;)

[Carpone]

Tumble does scale in distance and speed, but as far as greater benifit to AC and such, it does not. Currently ;)
I'm specifically referring to the nerf to reduced movement for water and chains. Instead of allowing 1 rank in Tumble bypass both of those effects, Turbine could have scaled the skill appropriately. For example:

5 ranks could allow you to Tumble through water.
15 ranks could allow you to Tumble across ice.
25 ranks could allow you to Tumble across grease.
35 ranks could allow you to Tumble move while chained.

Those are just examples to demonstrate scaling. Instead of scaling, Turbine removed most reasons to boost the skill.