You are so bad, I can't even put it into words.

[Bracosius]

People play the game for enjoyment. Imagine your a new player to the game. You just rolled up a fighter, because you want to kill things. You have a good time running Korthos and achieve level 3, you are ready to group now. You join a group and it has some "experienced" players in it. Your all level 3. The quest goes much smoother then the Korthos ones you did by yourself and is quick because everyone seems to know where to go. At the end of the first quest you realize your kill count is 4 and the other fighter has 57. Wow, you plan to step it up next quest. You run ahead a little to keep up with the other fighter, you quickly get surrounded, and ding!, you die. All of a sudden the other fighter starts screaming at you that you screwed his XP and you must have used con as a dump stat, he then starts talking about my DDO and your garbage +1 longsword, he then continues to rant and ridicule you. And the entire time you have no idea what he is talking about.

Does this sound enjoyable? It happens every day.

At the same time this is happening there is a fighter on his second TR. He is zerging water works with a pug. He made sure to gear up with stacks of every pot and cake he may need, and then grabbed his min lvl 2 Maelstrom from back in the day. Things go fine in part one, the group somewhat keeps up. He zones into part 2 and starts clearing. Suddenly some pug fighter runs up and aggros everyting in the quest. No big deal for the TR, but the stupid pug has no buffs and dies almost immediatly. Great, there goes 10% xp, and taking him to the rez shine is going to make the quest last twice as long. I have to myddo this guy, how could a fighter possibly go down that fast. OMG, a 10 con. Really? I need to help this guy out and call him out in quest for his own good.

How do you tell someone thier character sucks in a nice way? The reality is that no matter how good the new player is, when compared to the vet, the gap is so far that the new player can not even comprehend it. The cause of the gap is not actually in play skill, it is in the gear.

The average low level new player has a few cure light or mod pots and they are lucky if they have an elemental weapon. The vet will have full stacks of bulls, heroism, remove curse, remove poison, every elemental protection, random cakes, usually blade barriar and meteor storm, and the ever present infinite stack of cure serious pots. Top all this off with a lowbie twink weapon; Maelstrom, Star of Irian, or at the very least something with icy burst added.

The new player hits on a 12+ and kills a kobold in 4 hits. If he drinks all his pots he can heal 140 hp. This new player can not even fathom that the other fighter in the group hits everything on a 2+ and kills everything in one hit. He also has 3000+ hp of personal healing on person. How can these two people be expected to group together and not get frustrated at some point? The vet doesn't really remember what it was like when he just started and the new player couldn't even imagine how powerful the vet is at lvl 3.

And although this gap starts at the low levels, it does not even out at the higher ones. The only difference is at higher levels a different expectation exists and arguments and insults become more offensive. At this point not only does gear seperate the players but also character builds. The Djinns in epic dragon have some of the highest current AC's I am aware of. It is not uncommon to see someone beating on a Djinn and the health bar not moving at all. This is because they only hit on a 17+. For some people this is there highest level and best geared melee character, heck they even dual wield greensteal. They assume that it is an epic raid and thats just how it is. What they fail to realize is that although they need a 17 to hit, there are tons of players that still hit on a 2+. Some reading this may not believe me, but it is true, many players can hit the epic Djinns on a 2+.

At higher levels feat assumptions begin. There are certain feats that some classes are assumed to have because the power level of the feat seems unimaginable to play without. Quicken on a cleric, Maximize on a caster, Power Attack on a melee, and Toughness on everyone. But the reality is that more clerics are running around with improved mental toughness then regular toughness...you know who you are. Some are shocked, some are nodding, some will stop reading because I just offended them.

Since the level cap was 14 I assumed all clerics took quicken. The power of Quicken to me seems obvious. Your spell can not be interupted, important for heals, and it goes off fast enough that you don't need to predict the future to be sure the heal hits in time. Like I said, seems obvious. But how do you explain the power of quicken to a new player? A player that has been criticized on his build for the last 18 levels? His defenses are up, it would cost him tubine points for a feat exchange, and he is tired of people telling him how to play.

For those new to the game, try not to always get offended when someone offers advice. If you found this post, keep reading the forums, you will find everything you need to know. But also, please realize, your character is so bad, I can't even put it into words.

[MrWizard]

an experienced gamer in those examples is a poor and horrid player...period.

any experienced player, especially a long time player, should either stay away from new players when zerging, or expect a much slower dungeon where the exp player will be more a guide and tutor.

to ruin people's play is the mark of a disturbed individual. For that person to humiliate another ingame because they do not know anything shows some serious issues for that person.

Just like in life, those issues ruin any team effort...make it uncomfortable.

Newer players who are getting good might end up in many pugs like that, going to fast a bit, and they may not realize how much they know and have versus a true noob...but anyone who humiliates a new player is just a goober.

[Bacab]

This is sooo true.

My first time through this game I was a very survivable Dwarf Cleric.

I got 400 favor and bam made a 6 CON max DC Drow Sorc...

He sucked...

Then my computer died and I took a 2 year break.

I came back and bought FVS.

Started leveling my guy and put all level ups into CHR.

I burnt a feat on Heavy Armor...because I got lucky and had Stonemeld Armor Passed to me...

I had Weapon Focus Slashing...I am a FVS I use longswords...

I get all the way to 20 with a uber gimped build. I played nanny-bot pretty well...but I had a bad build.

So I TRed...same toon...different build. Maxed WIS and went Evoker FVS...all of a sudden I am soloing the world.

So fast forward a little bit more.

I proceed to solo most of my newer toons to level 6-8ish because PUGs slow me down...

I am about to TR my bard into a SOR. I really plan on PUGing more for the unexpected fun!

And yeah...there is a difference between a new player and an established player.

[kaidendager]

Suddenly some pug fighter runs up and aggros everyting in the quest.
...
The cause of the gap is not actually in play skill, it is in the gear.


Really?

I don't think the gap in skill is the problem though, nor do I think the gap in gear is the overarching problem (though it is a symptom). In my opinion, this disparagement comes from these new players' sense of entitlement.

I've been playing for four years (with breaks), but people that signed up hours ago want the same things I've worked for handed to them on a platinum platter. There is a plague of thinking "If he has it, why don't I have it?" I've been yelled at by players in Waterworks on barbarian for not healing them while I drink my own pots. I've gotten yelled at for standing still on a sorc drinking pots/wanding while the tanks grab aggro, telling me to "run around, don't just let them hit you!".

My general response to such things is this: /p Do you see those things around my name? Those are earplugs, I can't hear you.

In your example it isn't right to berate a player for losing the 10% xp, but to advise him that throwing himself into situations he cannot handle is not a good tactic. Teach him/her aggro management, throw them some plat to buy potions, give him/her a twink weapon or armor, etc. The problem comes when that player turns around and repeats "monkey see, monkey do", takes the plat and buys a shiny new +1 Shock Rapier to look "cool", or spams the trade channel with the weapon/armor you just gave them.

[synkos]

You were good in describing the two sides of what is basically the same coin.

The title is a bit misleading tho, I expected a serious rant and some /popcorn fun. ;)

Saddly, as you predicted in your post, there are those that will find themselves on one side and completely ignore the other or feel offended by something or something else.

To those I suggest you reread the OP and try not to read too much into it. It's as simple as it can be, at least that's how I'm percieving it.

[Morlen]

and then grabbed his min lvl 2 Maelstrom from back in the day.

Mmm, I <3 me my Maelstrom...

[Xatasha]

I see some major problems on both sides of the fence.

As a new player you should

1) Research what you are going to play......There are plenty of places to find info heck you can even ask in advice.

2) Don't expect to be as good as some old dog in the game. Oh no my kill count is only 4 to his 43....well ask the guy after the instance what he is doing. Believe it or not most everyone loves to talk game.

3) Wipes happen, mistakes are made and the key is not to repeat them.

4) Some players are nice, understanding and helpful......others are rude, nasty SOBs. Friend list the nice ones and ignore the rude ones

5) Be polite

If you are the Vet you should

1) Do some research and refresh your memory on some of the instance you haven't recently. New players will be expecting you to lead.

2) Remember you have played a lot longer. Your characters start more powerful and you have had a lot of time to farm gear for your low level characters. New players haven't

3) Be polite

4) Expect mistakes to be made by groups often at lower level....those are the levels people are learning.

5) There are new players that are nice,smart and learn quickly..heck some might show you a new trick or two. Then there are the dummies that stand in acid,rude and just don't get it. Add the good ones to your friends list and ignore the bad ones

And for everyone.......its a game and have fun :) even a horrid pug is something you can laugh about later.

[Rasczak]

The only part I disagree on is the gear.

Gear comes from experience. Experience tells you what monsters do what, what weapons are better and what pots should be gulped down like beer at a frat party.

A 'vet' has the experience to know to carry bull's str, maybe cat's and bear, SoF, Bark, Rage, Haste, a clickie or 8 of prot evil etc etc, to use as buffs.

A new player puts on power attack and only hits on a 17+.

A 'vet' will have lesser restore, poison, blindness, curse, disease, cure serious, couple wands maybe for the healer, and everything else they can find to make them better.

A new player has Korthos cure potions and a resistance energy: sonic they found in Misery's Peak, and proceed to scream at the cleric for letting them die.

Experience dictates aggro management, using which weapon where, tripping everything they find even if they have low str (mobs throw 1's too), when to back off, when to kite, what mobs to kill first, which mobs they can't handle, which spells help them or cripple them, why fortification is important, why having hp's over sp's is important, when ac is useless or effective, why will saves and evasion are a happy place, why they carry ennervation scrolls on a mc or don't bother firewalling certain skellies, why +5 weapon is not as good as a +1 holy of pg, why using imp precise shot is bad when you almost dead, why buffing is better than healing, why cc and aggresive casting is better than sitting back and healing, sp consumption and why FoD'ing everything is silly, why displace isn't enough when you have 20 mobs beating on you......I could go on forever.

The biggest problem I find when speaking to new players is not that they are defensive, I tell them to get used to the game, unlock Veteran then transfer their gear and try again, first character and even 4th character may be an absolute flop........the problem is how do you explain to a new player who is hitting kobolds on normal and has done sanctuary on elite....that while they enjoy that awesome dc for CR 3 mobs, they can hit things on their wizard with 8 str and survive a shaman attack......how do you explain to them that right now their bum is in the butter but orthons and epic kobolds hit back hard and they play for keeps?

My problem relates to the fact that new players have nothing to relate to when you speak about lvl 20 questing. They can only relate to lvl 2 and they have no inkling of the fact that difficulty comes in many forms in DDO.

Then again I don't scream, I expect 10% xp loss when Pugging and I don't expect to be babysat.
I only expect good times and any person who feels the need to vent in party chat or vc, can get the hell out of my group so the more reasonable and mature people, who are there, can learn something ;)

[Irinis]

I hear ya. Recently been leveling a main on another server than my "home" server and even though I KNOW to buy cure potions and curse pots and etc etc etc... I just didn't have the plat for it initially. Level 8 and trying to find good weapons on the AH after the vendors came up empty, the kind of weapons I was looking for were either not posted at all or 30-100kpp. Just a pair of FF boots, 10k plat... to my 3k at the time. Ridiculous.

(My other character on that server is part of a group, I gratefully accepted the care package because it meant I would contribute more to the group by being able to gear up a bit.)

On my home server, I have curse pots, poison pots, haste pots, portable holes sitting in the bank, large collectible bags, lowbie weapons and gear, so many +5 thieves tools I've started randomly sending some to lowlevel rogues, not enough midlevel weapons and gear but enough plat to just buy them if I have to... lol. So easy to forget how horrible the low levels can be to those just starting out, when you're experienced and have at least a couple of characters at cap to feed that hungry lowbie you just started. I'm not rich by any means, still can't afford spectral gloves or bloodstones, or tome pages. Sigh.

Thing is, when people beg for plat, it's just annoying. I understand how horribly hard it is, just don't beg. Don't EXPECT people to help you out. Then when they do... it's AWESOME THANK YOU! :D

The whole experience has been really humbling on the new server and made me much more grateful for what I have on the home server.

[Daliyn]

In my opinion, this disparagement comes from these new players' sense of entitlement.
I've been playing for four years (with breaks), but people that signed up hours ago want the same things I've worked for handed to them on a platinum platter.

Yea, there are lazy, greedy jerks all over the place. They are the loudest in general chat, and they're the ones to remember after logging off when they ruined another pug. But if you think they're the majority of the new playerbase, that is a very onesided perception. In fact, the parents of the vast majority of players I met fortunately didn't treat INT as a dump stat. Perhaps they forgot WIS (and sometimes CHA), but probably they weren't divine enough if they breeded at all.

Oh, and gear matters. You who have accumulated stuff for 4 years have no idea how much. When did you last start a toon without anything? You still have a headstart in skill and knowledge, but gear matters.


Teach him/her aggro management,

Teach them, yes. Which is something different than barking orders or handholding without explanations.


throw them some plat to buy potions, give him/her a twink weapon or armor, etc.

No thanks. Everybody whines about the easy buttons, and you hand them out for free? The game is not so hard, nobody needs a burst weapon or stacks of CSW pots for waterworks, only if he wants to keep pace with a 4 year old TRx, which is a ridiculous expectation from both sides. You spoil my fun of exploring, getting along with the loot I found myself, dying silly deaths, finding ways to get some income on my own. And you fuel exactly the attitude you denounce above - that players become used to get everything for free.

If you wanna zerg WW with your overgeared toon to maximize XP/minute, that's fine, but please don't PUG with newbies. It will be frustrating for all sides. If you do it nonetheless and make clear that you zerg and nobody shall come in your way, you will attract exactly the players who become a PITA later: Not willing to quest on their own, not willing to learn their char, piking for cheap XP.

[Hokonoso]

+1 to the OP for saying what some of us are thinking but dont have the balls to say. im sure you will get neg rep for hurting ppls feelings but from me you won't, cause i understand. me and my maelstrom and unlimited pots fully understand how you feel at lvl 3, and hitting on a 2 on djinn is also normal for me so i understand you at lvl 20 too. there just aren't words to describe some people, just aren't words...

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Good post OP. +1.

[Judo]

an experienced gamer in those examples is a poor and horrid player...period.

any experienced player, especially a long time player, should either stay away from new players when zerging, or expect a much slower dungeon where the exp player will be more a guide and tutor.

to ruin people's play is the mark of a disturbed individual. For that person to humiliate another ingame because they do not know anything shows some serious issues for that person.

Just like in life, those issues ruin any team effort...make it uncomfortable.

Newer players who are getting good might end up in many pugs like that, going to fast a bit, and they may not realize how much they know and have versus a true noob...but anyone who humiliates a new player is just a goober.


While a valid reply, you forget the most fundemental problem with new guy.

He joined an lfm that most likely said something along these lines:

*Insert quest name* quick run, know the way here, be self-sufficient, no -10p

While it's surely shameful to ruin anothers play, the vet has certain unalienable rights as well. Namely the right to
zerg and not lose 10p, the right to be self sufficient and have others who join said lfm be the same, the right to level
quickly, and most importantly, the right to NOT have to babysit the noobs, or feel guilty because he chooses no to
do so.

If my lfm said as much, and someone joined who didn't have a clue, or who asks for directions to the quest, he needs
to be let known that his actions are improper, that he is ruining MY game time.

Not every zerging vet is the bad guy, we are mostly just sick of being crammed into the "Bad Guy Vet" box.

LFM's have a purpose, follow them, and ffs, like its hard to form your own lfm. Enjoy the game if your a newb, cuz
why would you want the game served to you on a silver platter?

[Fenrisulven6]

While a valid reply, you forget the most fundemental problem with new guy. He joined an lfm that most likely said something along these lines:

*Insert quest name* quick run, know the way here, be self-sufficient, no -10p

That wasn't my experience when I was new. Quite the opposite - vets joining standard LFMs that said nothing about zerg or fast play. And then ruining the quest for the party by rushing off to solo-complete. I remember running harbor quests, trying to finish out and repair so I could get into the next quest before the zerger completed it. And I learned NOTHING along the way. Everything was a flash of broken crates and empty rooms as I tried to catch up.

Now, any newbie that joins a zerg LFM deserves such abuse, but....


vet has certain unalienable rights as well. Namely the right to zerg

Do you believe "zerg" is the default for LFMs that dont specify? If so, you''re part of the problem the OP describes.

[gurslak]

I can see and understand both sides of the argument, no-one wants to lose xp in a quest no matter what lvl and if your a vet zerging and doing new players a favour then it's understandable to get frustrated, especially when you discover the new player has a gimped set up. Conversly it's just as frustrating for some new players to feel like their piking it and want to be more involved and feel like they've earnt the xp and quest rewards.
As for the players who demand things, well you get them throughout life and theres not a lot you can do about it other than politely decline.

I think it really all comes down to communiction. If a player has just got himself killed, take a breath before laying into them and their set up, ask questions and make suggestions dont mock and humiliate as that wont help. It's the same for the new guy, if you feel like yu want to do more, ask what you can do and if your told nothing simply complete and then find a new group.
We were all new and useless at some point, hell I still am! Just remember that we all play this for fun, if you really dont want to risk losing 10% xp dont pug, if you dont mind the risk then a quick conversation can go a long way.

[zztophat]

I like talking to new players. I've spent hours telling players things they should know.

I've sent tells to the people posting LFMs when I see one up for a quest that group does not look ready for just to tell them what they are in for. Sometimes it looks like the group level is too low, or just not the right class mix (like a quest full of traps but no trap monkey) or just the wording in the LFM leads me to think that the group is walking in to a world of hurt. A quick myddo of the leader generally tells me all I need to know about that group's chances of success.

Sometimes I just tell them how to word their LFM differently to get people to join.

LFM for taming the flames (cleric, 3 rogues 1 fighter):
Me: You should bring someone that can cast resist fire, even if it's only 10
LFM: I have protection from fire, what's resist fire 10?
(5 minute conversation with me telling what the difference is between protection and resist, what 10 resist was vs. 20 and 30 and how to get them, then what evasion was, sneak attacks, ect)
LFM: thanks, I'll memorized resist fire and I'll see if anyone can get some ice weapons

LFM for church and the cult (a group without an arcane caster):
Me: you will want to bring silver weapons for that one if you can't find someone to cast firewalls for you.
LFM: silver why?
Me: *explains*
LFM: Can I invite you to the group so you can tell everyone else this?
Me: sure
Me to group: blah blah blah (tell them about the second shrine and various other things)
Party member: I have Silver arrows from house D, do those work
Me after already having repeated myself 3 times: yes, silver or metalline weapons

A while after I had left that party and wished them good luck I get a tell from the party leader with profuse thank yous, saying how they had barely survived that last fight but thanks to my advice they managed to do it and how "epic" the battle was.

The only time I get annoyed with newbies is when they refuse to listen. However even then I don't just start yelling at them. For example I was taking a group through deleras, all of them first timers (that was a long 2-3 hours). For the most part they were listening closely to everything I had to say; "Don't rush in to these rooms the door closes and enemies spawn, kill the wraith first then open the soul lock" and ect. ...until we got to the part where there are 3 switches in part 4, I typed: "ok, do not touch any of these levers, let me pull the one that doesn't set off the traps". I walked over, pulled the one of the far left and before I could say anything two other party members ran up and pulled the other 2 switches. A couple of blue hexagons and the words "save" popped out of my head followed 2 death messages for those other 2 players.

I had so many things I wanted to say at that point, impolite unpleasant things but I didn't.

I carried them to the shrine, they rezzed we finished the quest and I showed them how to get their end reward with no further incidents, they thanked me for being the guide. I told them they could run it again on hard and elite for more xp and loot as well as end rewards and that they should (I figured they could handle it).

But I was not about to join them in running hard and elite, for some reason I was still mad about that switch thing.



2 things I have learned:

Never tell a player they are wrong, try to tell them why they should do something so they will be better, not so they will "not suck". People get defensive when you imply they are wrong, if you are trying to help someone it helps to make it a tip and not criticism.

Explain to someone the problem with what they are doing, don't just tell them not to do it. 10 con? Is bad, it doesn't matter what your build is but just saying to someone: "10 con, you should re-roll". Is not going to make them re-roll. They should, things will only get worse for them but they won't. Tell them all they need to know about why, tell them what you would do to make up for the shortfall (toughness feat, and the toughness enhancements). I've gotten 2 people to give up on thier 10 con builds when I told them all they had to do was use it long enough to get 400 favor, and then they could roll a drow. They thought that was a great idea.
Basically, your build doesn't suck, just think of it as a stepping off point for an even better build.


Frankly, the way I see it, if you are not trying to be constructive then just don't bother mentioning someone's build or play style. It's not going to make them do what you want by yelling and insulting, they are not going to listen.

[NUDS]

I'm not sure if OP is trying to put in perspective how newbies and vets see things or flaming newbies or both.

But at the end of the day, experience simply cannot be taught. You can tell the newbie to read a million guides, study tactics for every fight, theorycraft all possible builds, teach them every single precise thing that happens in a specific dungeon, the location of every trap, what to expect from mobs, what spells to use/not to use. What gear to min/max.

But simply knowing this does nothing.

You can't expect someone who has never played the game before to read up some guides, tell them what to do and give them some gear to be as experienced as a vet.

In most games, there is a learning curve. It will always be there. It's just the way things are. People do stupid stuff, silly stuff. But most of them will learn from their mistakes. There is only one true way to experience and that is learning by doing.

Experience comes with time. Sure there are some quick learners who can watch a couple of videos and guides and run through the dungeon in mer minutes. But for the majority of players, they have to learn by, you know, actually doing it. You can't teach people what to do right and what not to do wrong and expect them to know everything right off the bat. People make mistakes. Good players will learn from this.


Anyway, new player here. I'm sure I will become a bitter newbie-hater in a couple of years but for the moment, I'm still enjoying the content this awesome game has to offer :P

[Missing_Minds]

For those new to the game, try not to always get offended when someone offers advice. If you found this post, keep reading the forums, you will find everything you need to know. But also, please realize, your character is so bad, I can't even put it into words.

But as yet you feel the need for name calling and ridiculing of all new players throughout your rant rather than getting to the point.

Get over yourself, it is just a game.

[LordDamax]

The cause of the gap is not actually in play skill, it is in the gear.

While gear is huge, play skill is even bigger. I'm telling you, take an experienced vet and give him starter garbage, and equip a noob with the best twink gear, and the vet will still crush him in a quest.

Gear makes a big difference, but skill and experience is bigger.

Edit: Oh, and I've been here since beta. I have a ton of toons. I've run with hundreds of people. Thousands of quests.

Never once have I seen a zerging vet ridicule a new player to his face. Maybe some comments in guild chat about the noob, but NEVER to his face, and never derisive ridicule.

I think those that do that are in the minority, and are the true pigs of this game. I'm sure they are out there, but in my experience, leveling up toon over toon over toon, I've never seen it. I've been in lowbie groups with powerleveling members of the "big jerk" guilds on Xoriat/New Xoriat. And one of two things happens... the LFM reads something to dissuade the noob from joining, or once it's known that guy is a total noob, he's kicked out, or the group reformed around him.

Yes, kicking him out of a pug, somewhat rude. But WORLDS better than actually ridiculing him. I know there are some here who thinks kicking him out of the group is horrible, and we should take the time to teach him blah blah blah. Fact is we don't owe the new guy anything. We're not obligated to teach him, to hand hold. We ALL pay to play this game, and we want to play it how we want to. Some like helping and teaching, some like crushing the kill count, some like making pretty hair and armor combos, and some like getting that 100'th raid completion.

Kicking the noob out of the group because he doesnt fit that groups playstyle it's being a jerk its doing the guy a favor.

[Fenrisulven6]

if your a vet zerging and doing new players a favour

Sorry but no. Too many vets think they are doing new players a "favour" by zerging thru the quest and completing for them. They aren't.

In fact, I think its just a justification for selfish play.

[Drfirewater79]

an experienced gamer in those examples is a poor and horrid player...period.

any experienced player, especially a long time player, should either stay away from new players when zerging, or expect a much slower dungeon where the exp player will be more a guide and tutor.

to ruin people's play is the mark of a disturbed individual. For that person to humiliate another ingame because they do not know anything shows some serious issues for that person.

Just like in life, those issues ruin any team effort...make it uncomfortable.

Newer players who are getting good might end up in many pugs like that, going to fast a bit, and they may not realize how much they know and have versus a true noob...but anyone who humiliates a new player is just a goober.

I don't know if i I agree or not really ...

I love to zerg ... i do find the extremity of my zerging changes drastically depending on how bad the pugs are ...

i still like to be the first to engage cause i want to take the brunt of agro especially on my lowbie fighters ... cause i have the experience they may be lacking in character building.

Any melee with base 10 con better have a good reason ... and personally i expect at least 1 death in any pug i am in ... so sweating over 350 exp for a death in water works elite man if its gonna bother you that much you just drink and exp pot ... or dont pug ...

personally I have had less enjoyment pug'n exp missions anyway, But if i am not grinding exp in some hardcore way ... i find pug'n especially bad pugs ... an added challenge in todays DDO for babies edition.

with the right amount of pots, umd, and skill ... at any lvl range you should be able to solo any mission that doesnt require two switches to be pulled at once ... or a specific party number to over come a challenge (puzzle).

Since that is the case ... as a long time vet ... I look to be the reason why my party doesnt wipe ... i look to be the reason no one took a death ... cause when i saw noob #1 run after that ogre with his master work holy club ... i hop over there with my icy burst shock scimitar of pure good (min lvl 4) and beat the snot out of it before it kills him ... and if i didnt get there in time ... well then i failed the challenge put in front of me ...

I think ... if more vets took noobs under there wing ... taught them the ropes and took there failings as personal failings for not explaining the next part or by not looking out for his Padwan Noob rather then blame the noob for not having the experience ... then Noobs would build there confidence slowly ... understand the missions better ... understand there character flaws and see how this game is different then pnp.

There are things turbine could do to increase the ease for vets to help out noobs ... like UMD skill enhancement line for all classes (available only to people who take the umd skill focus feat much like toughness) this will allow vets who know about umd to be able to use wands and what not at lower levels and help out noob healers (i know at lvl 20 i am still spot healing on my monk and kensai the other day i went through 200 heal scrolls in 3 runs of gen point) and perhaps make intimidate have a larger radius and last longer then the cool down (right now if you dont hit intimidate the second its done the mobs will break and attack others you see this the most in shroud part 4)

in the end ... if your the type of person that MyDDO's everyone ... then you really shouldnt pug cause you will never be happy ...

better just solo or guild run things ...

if your just out to have fun then ignore stupid agro magnets like MyDDO and just play the damd mission ... really there is almost no mission or raid that cannot be completed with 6 half brains and 6 brain deads on normal ... if 10% exp loss or 20% for that matter is such a big deal ... DONT PUG.

and when in game play is making you not have fun remember this little mantra

"when in doubt ... just log out."

[Combat_Wombat]

I've healed every raid and quest in the game(often solo) without quicken including epics I would hardly call that 100% necessary for a cleric and it was the first character I took above 11 I think. It is not hard and saves SP.

Just wanted to put my 2 copper in on that point :)

[LordDamax]

Mmm, I <3 me my Maelstrom...

Yeah I've no clue where mine went... I know I had one... cant find it anywhere. Grr.

[Judo]

That wasn't my experience when I was new. Quite the opposite - vets joining standard LFMs that said nothing about zerg or fast play. And then ruining the quest for the party by rushing off to solo-complete. I remember running harbor quests, trying to finish out and repair so I could get into the next quest before the zerger completed it. And I learned NOTHING along the way. Everything was a flash of broken crates and empty rooms as I tried to catch up.

Now, any newbie that joins a zerg LFM deserves such abuse, but....



Do you believe "zerg" is the default for LFMs that dont specify? If so, you''re part of the problem the OP describes.

As i stated in the opening of my post, this was referencing LFM's that Vets with such behavior would put up.

[Dunfalach]

This is really quite a good OP post, and some useful comments after.

The research is a tough one. Those of us who are research-oriented are going to research before we come in anyway...and those who aren't, will not, as they will find it a painful amount of work just to start playing a game. In this, the age and maturity of D&D works against it a little bit, as the mechanics are so deep and so extensive that it often (as you alluded to somewhat with the fellow handling catacombs and shamans with ease) isn't easy to realize that your current build is going to be horrible in later levels. Veterans know because they've been there. They've built that toon that performed so well until they hit a certain level and suddenly became useless death-magnets. Even if they've never had a bad build in DDO (rare, I should think), that's probably only because they did all their bad builds in the pen and paper form. People expect games to be relatively obvious, with reasonably simple progressions (+4 weapon to +5 weapon, good to go), so they jump in. D&D isn't that simple. But it isn't *obvious* that it isn't that simple till your build starts failing.

The forums have lots of useful information. Yet, by the same token, the forums have years of often conflicting opinions on pretty much anything, and that can be tremendously overwhelming for a newbie, particularly those who've not played D&D at all before. I came to DDO with only a thin knowledge of D&D culled from a few months on a D&D-based MUSH, a little experience with d20-based superhero games, and bits and pieces picked up from lots of friends who played D&D or other d20 games. After over a year of playing, I still feel like I'm only scratching the surface of understanding how some of the mechanics work. It took me four or five characters to find out that it was best not to use the built-in paths. My next couple of characters were built with a pretty much slavish following of builds found on the forums. My last two characters were built after reading the forums to try to understand why people made the choices they made, and what people recommended, but then following my own path on the decisions. Having enough confidence to tentatively create my own build is progress, but I'm still a long way from considering myself a veteran.

At the same time, sometimes I am that veteran. I've been through most of the harbor quests often enough to start remembering some of the keys to them. I've never been a zerg and probably never will be. I'm content to take my time. I frequently find myself trying to encourage the group to break everything for extra XP, warning them about the trap or the big fight ahead, or be sure they wait for the rogue to disable the traps before plunging ahead. It is almost never a good sign if a newbie sorcerer is out ahead of the rogue. Especially if you're in on elite. I do try my best to not be rough with the newbie, though, and offer a more gentle amused chiding after he dies. "Probably best not to be out ahead of everyone in future"

My usual response to veteran zergs, as long as they truly *can* zerg ahead without getting us all killed, is to let them. Makes for a leisurely stroll in their wake.

[shores11]

an experienced gamer in those examples is a poor and horrid player...period.

any experienced player, especially a long time player, should either stay away from new players when zerging, or expect a much slower dungeon where the exp player will be more a guide and tutor.

to ruin people's play is the mark of a disturbed individual. For that person to humiliate another ingame because they do not know anything shows some serious issues for that person.

Just like in life, those issues ruin any team effort...make it uncomfortable.

Newer players who are getting good might end up in many pugs like that, going to fast a bit, and they may not realize how much they know and have versus a true noob...but anyone who humiliates a new player is just a goober.

I tried hard to agree more with you but my agreement with your statement maxed out my agreeableness (+1 rep for your reply).

I have been playing 4+ years now and have never taken a break from the game. I enjoy the game very much and I especially enjoy it when I quest with players that are new or have not experienced the dungeon you and he/she are getting ready to conquer.

It is not our job to teach, tutor or guide new players but really can we not at least be civil.

[learst]

The only part I disagree on is the gear.

Gear comes from experience. Experience tells you what monsters do what, what weapons are better and what pots should be gulped down like beer at a frat party.

I don't have the best gear; I'm not a gear-obsessed person. When my toon cap, I just start a new toon like that. No gold, no armour; basically from scratch and I just level up and gain gear through the usual way. I love the challenge of playing a character with appropriate level challenge without some sugar daddy backing him up. A lot of fun to me comes from facing a challenge (tough monsters, party wipe, etc) and manage to somehow overcome it.



A 'vet' will have lesser restore, poison, blindness, curse, disease, cure serious, couple wands maybe for the healer, and everything else they can find to make them better.


Well I'm far from a vet, but I do carry a lot of restorative potions, when I can.



A 'vet' has the experience to know to carry bull's str, maybe cat's and bear, SoF, Bark, Rage, Haste, a clickie or 8 of prot evil etc etc, to use as buffs.
Again, not a vet. But I think this to me boils down more to playstyle. Though I KNOW Haste, Rage, Stoneskin etc will be good for me, I don't like the idea of carrying them around and lugging them down for short durations. If I can get the buff from someone, great. If not, then oh well, let's just go on then. i know this does not make me the most uberest player, but that's how I play. I'm not a fan of clickies, twitching or [insert clever finger-fu actions]. Even took me a long while to get used to the remember and use the ranger action buffs. :P


That wasn't my experience when I was new. Quite the opposite - vets joining standard LFMs that said nothing about zerg or fast play. And then ruining the quest for the party by rushing off to solo-complete. I remember running harbor quests, trying to finish out and repair so I could get into the next quest before the zerger completed it. And I learned NOTHING along the way. Everything was a flash of broken crates and empty rooms as I tried to catch up.

This was my experience too. None of the LFMs I joined specified "zerg" (I tend to avoid them), but I've done Crucible 3 times without knowing the maze, Church and the Cult where we completed quest as some of us just came out of the elemental rooms. Once I put up an LFM that said slow/normal run for Shan-to-Kor, and someone came in and finished till the last spot when the party is barely halfway through.

In raids which I've joined, apparently I joined really good ones as it went smoothly. But basically it just meant me piking as the tanks or small group of people just did everything and well, "quest completed".

[shores11]

My usual response to veteran zergs, as long as they truly *can* zerg ahead without getting us all killed, is to let them. Makes for a leisurely stroll in their wake.

One of the problems I have with "zerging" players is that they may not quit be good enough to solo a quest so they join a group just in case they die or can't be sure they can complete it by themselves. Or they think that their zerging for some reason impresses other players because they can say look at my kill count.

However my biggest problem is that I play this game to enjoy the quests and engage the various monsters that D&D has to offer. When I am in a group with a zerging player something is missing, hmmmm, oh yea, the monsters because all I get to see when a player zergs ahead is an empty dungeon.

[DANTEIL]

I'm not sure if OP is trying to put in perspective how newbies and vets see things or flaming newbies or both.

This. As I read through it, I was all prepared to love the OP. I loved the message of "can't we all get along" that came from describing the same situation from both the vet and the newbie point of view. I happen to think that it is this inability/unwillingness to understand other players' perspectives (on both sides!) that is the main cause of a lot of the newbie/vet drama around here. And I think these kinds of situations happen all the time.

Then came that last paragraph. *zing* I find out that the burden is on the new players to not take offense. Oookay.

Then I went back and re-read the whole thing again, and the logic made less sense to me. The opening example of the two perspectives (which I still really like) is really about veterans vs. truly new players -- i.e., players fresh off the boat who haven't even had any time yet to learn the game, acquire gear, etc. If veterans are getting irritated with new players like this... well that's just sad. I can see where the irritation might come from, but honestly, *any* kind of help would be so simple to give and appreciated in that situation, it seems ridiculous not to do so.

But the rest of the OP is *really* about disparities between players at higher levels and the differences in access to gear/feats etc. at these later points in the game. Here the differences are trickier to manage for at least 3 reasons: a) new players at higher levels have presumably been enjoying their character and the game up to that point, b) the kinds of 'fixes' it would take are more complicated and unpleasant (feat respec, reroll), and c) the stakes in the game are simply higher. Thus, we have a situation where (some!) veterans are less willing to cut these higher level (but still new) players some slack, and (some!) newer players don't like being told that the way they are playing is sub-optimal.

I actually believe that the gear is the easiest thing to fix -- it's concrete, the advantages of one thing over another are (usually) obvious), and who doesn't like better, shinier things? (of course, when newer players find out about the grind required... well, that's another story). It's the more abstract differences that harder to overcome and to communicate in a non-belittling way, such as builds and playstyle choices.

[gunner2]

TR characters and rerolls with unlimited money/gear can be frustrating to new people trying to learn the game. My solution is to zerg when all members are experianced and it is obviously a zerg group. Otherwise I will hang back a little and let the party explore and figure out the best fighting stratagies and will step in when things start going south. Lets remember this is a game and it should be fun for all and all for fun.

[Rasczak]

I don't have the best gear; I'm not a gear-obsessed person. When my toon cap, I just start a new toon like that. No gold, no armour; basically from scratch and I just level up and gain gear through the usual way. Does that mean that because I don't have uber gear I'm a newb?


Read again...I said gear does not make a good player, it does not make a noob, newb or vet either ;)

I said experience to know what does what and when to use it is what counts more not the items on you.


As for pots and so on...when you have run a quest hundreds of times, you prefer to get them done. The pots I mentioned is not just to make you finish quicker. Some levers need str or int skills, a rogue may need some extra boost, monsters that crit you dead in one shot etc etc. All of those are knowledge you gain by playing and knowing that in any situation you have something that can help. Whether it be rage, haste, SOF and bark pots to save the healer sp and give yourself a better chance of survival, to gaining some bonus xp or loot.
Ever been in Von 3 and noone can do the int runes (before they dropped the score)?
Ever been in tear and noone could handle the str, wis or int rune?

All I am saying is people who have played a while, start carrying certain pots to be more effective and to cover the bases. I am in no way saying no pots means you're useless ;)
Noone says you have to use pots...and no twitch skills are required. At low levels when I know there is an ogre, I down some pots before running into battle. In other quests I drink a haste now n then. Certain places I know the trap and I'll take poison or a resist....knowledge is everything ;)

[ElfedLied4]

Do you believe "zerg" is the default for LFMs that dont specify? If so, you''re part of the problem the OP describes.

I've joined a zerg group or two before. I have a hard time keeping up. Even wearing 25 striders, if I stop to turn around a kill a mob I'll be left in the dust while the quest gets completed.

But, I also don't sit around and look at the wallpaper while I'm questing, even when I'm getting ransack. I run into a room, kill everything, smash everything (not necessarily in that order), disable traps if rogue/splash, pick up collectables, and then I open the next door or otherwise move on. I almost never hit green alert, since I clear everything. But, my father and my brother who occasionally play with me have trouble keeping up. They are firmly convinced that I'm zerging when I for the life of me can't see why they take so long to get to the next door.

Well, in my father's case he wants to pick up everything that drops from broken barrels and he hasn't quite figured out that you don't have to wait for a door to finish opening before you run through it. So he spends 5-30 seconds walking around each room picking everything up after the fight/smashing is over and then he's 1/2-3 seconds behind me entering the next room (after I've waited for him to get to the door) because he takes that long to enter.

But aside from that, I have the same difficulty in lowbie pug groups. The dungeon is clear. There are no mobs. There are no boxes to break. There are no traps to disarm (unless I'm not on a rogue). All it would take to catch up is holding down the 'w' button and aiming for the door. It takes me a bit to clear the next room, they should be able to catch up in that time, but they spend the whole dungeon 1 room or more behind.

That little bit talking about lowbies was mostly an exaggeration but there often is at least one player who never really sees the rest of the group after the first room. I *can* go slower and wait for everyone in the group, but when that happens the slowest member will think that they've gotten ahead of someone and they will start going even *slower*.

[Xatasha]

There is a dark secret to the game....I shouldn't say anything its against the code

But

You can play the game for years and still be an idiot. A guy can play for years TR multiple characters and still be a newb.

There are a few on every server.

Good players always make it to the top however turds also float to the top as well

[Dunfalach]

In every game there are people who play to win, and people who play for the game. The problem comes when you combine them in the same party. While in theory a party is six people trying for the same goal, to accomplish the quest objectives, in practice there tend to be six people with six at least slightly different (and sometimes majorly different) sets of goals.

This isn't limited to just MMOs, of course. Another of my gaming loves is First Person Shooters. No booing from the peanut gallery, please. ;) I always play objective missions when I get online, not deathmatch. But in every objective mission online you'll have several sets of people:

1) The lost. Usually either new to the game or new to the map, the lost have no idea what they're doing. They are more likely to turn up in the other side's killscore repeatedly than to help out much, but they can surprise you. Often times all the lost needs is someone willing to take a few moments to give the classic civilian's guide to "congratulations, you're being invaded". This is your rifle. Bullets come out of that end. You load it here. This is the trigger. Here's your ammo. This is where you look to point it. Your enemy is the guys that are not dressed like me. Point it at them and pull that trigger till it stops firing, then reload like I showed you. Good luck. Given a quick overview by an effective veteran, the lost can tag along and actually contribute if they're just inexperienced rather than incompetent. If they're incompetent too, then at least they're an extra target who isn't you, and hopefully the server doesn't allow friendly fire.

2) The killscores. Despite playing an objective-based map where their team loses if the objective is not completed, this player is only concerned about topping the scoreboard on kills. If they lead the killboard and their team loses 30-0, they still consider themselves the winners. They only belong on deathmatch servers, but they still play on yours. The best you can hope for with the killscore is that the enemy spends so much time dying at the hands of the killscore that the rest of your team has a chance to complete the mission.

3) The loner. The loner doesn't work with anyone, but unlike the killscore or the lost, he's aware of the objective and actively working to accomplish it. If he's decently competent, he's probably contributing to your success even though he's no good at interacting and coordinating with the rest of you. If he's exceptionally competent, you're probably seeing a lot of "<enemy> was killed by loner" or "loner has captured the enemy flag!" messages. He might be a zerger simply too good for the enemy to touch, or he might be the sniper popping headshots from no one knows where, or the special ops guy sneaking around the enemy base. You can count on him to be doing something useful but you can't count on him to help you out.

4) The team player. Whether a leader or a follower, the team player is coordinating with the rest of you, filling his role and watching out for his teammates to need help. This is usually the one that's the most fun just to *be* with, where the player interactions are more the source of fun than the fact of completing a mission.

5) The tagalong. He's there. But nobody really knows where on the map he is or whether he's contributing anything at all. He's not getting shot much, nor shooting a lot of the enemy. He doesn't capture the flag, or appear at your side to save your neck. You won, or perhaps you lost, but either way you're not really sure he had any role at all in either. He was just there.

I try to be #4, both in FPS and in DDO. If a party just isn't making the effort to actually work together, I'll default to #3, or even occasionally #5 if a couple of competent zergs are off somewhere clearing things out. Like I said, if you find yourself with a competent zerg, let them. Then leave that party and look for a better one after you've enjoyed the leisurely stroll and taken your share of the XP and loot the zerg leaves in his wake. And some days I find myself #1, wandering cluelessly through an unfamiliar dungeon hoping eventually someone will take pity on me and come back and show me where the party went before I blunder into something nasty. :>

[Ruland]

So far, as a new player, all I've come across are helpful vets willing to share their advice and help a newb along. I've used the advice channel a half a dozen times and within 5-6 secs of asking my question I get tells from 5 or more people. Maybe the kind of people the OP is talking about (the a-hole vets), are so few and far between that I just have not run into this yet.

I've recently paid for VIP just because of the player base I've come across have seemed more mature than other MMOs I've played. DDO for people not familiar with the PnP version is actually very overwhelming at times. But so far, the vets I've come across have been full of help. Almost like they got off on it lol.

I hope I never run into the tools the OP describes. I'd actually love to be able to read a chat log of one of the pompous vets first months in game, just to see of they ever actually were new or just born with leet MMO skills and know how.

[Morlen]

Yeah I've no clue where mine went... I know I had one... cant find it anywhere. Grr.

That sucks man. I probably had mine for 2 years in a bank account somewhere before I realized that it was a lvl2 kobald/hobgoblin destroyer... Now I am a killing machine at low levels! lol

[Anthios888]

Brac, I found this to be a compassionate and not at all condescending post. It drives right at the heart of what dozens of thread every day rant and rave about. Not enough of us stop and think about the other side of the coin. Thank you for posting. +1.

[Thrudh]

Sorry but no. Too many vets think they are doing new players a "favour" by zerging thru the quest and completing for them. They aren't.

In fact, I think its just a justification for selfish play.

Exactly... This does NOT help a new player..

[Missing_Minds]

Good players always make it to the top however turds also float to the top as well

We tend to splash them away from us.

[Cyr]

Sorry but no. Too many vets think they are doing new players a "favour" by zerging thru the quest and completing for them. They aren't.

In fact, I think its just a justification for selfish play.

Selfish play implies putting your own needs over the needs of the group. Considering that completing the quest earns everyone in the quest XP then completing the quest quickly is in the groups interest. Some groups may decide that they want to run real slow and role play the quest, but that playstyle is in opposition to the reward structure setup for the entire group. If you are in a group where this is the stated goal then of course you should either leave or follow suite as in this particular case the group as a whole has put slow play as more important then the in game reward system.

Some real examples of selfish play...
*Rogue who will not melee a mob because they like to be 'sneaky'
*Piking at the beginning of a quest
*Demanding everyone else slow down in contradiction of the game's reward structure when others have no desire to do so
*Zerging when the party has made clear they are going to play slowly

The secret here of course is that once you decide to do something for your own internal desires that interfer with the in game methods of rewarding players then you are the one being selfish. Those who are merely playing the game in the manner it was designed to be rewarding are not being selfish...unless their gameplay directly hurts your rewards. In the case of running a quest quickly in fact the opposite is true, their gameplay is increasing your in game rewards.

[MrWizard]

While a valid reply, you forget the most fundemental problem with new guy.

He joined an lfm that most likely said something along these lines:

*Insert quest name* quick run, know the way here, be self-sufficient, no -10p

While it's surely shameful to ruin anothers play, the vet has certain unalienable rights as well. Namely the right to
zerg and not lose 10p, the right to be self sufficient and have others who join said lfm be the same, the right to level
quickly, and most importantly, the right to NOT have to babysit the noobs, or feel guilty because he chooses no to
do so.

If my lfm said as much, and someone joined who didn't have a clue, or who asks for directions to the quest, he needs
to be let known that his actions are improper, that he is ruining MY game time.

Not every zerging vet is the bad guy, we are mostly just sick of being crammed into the "Bad Guy Vet" box.

LFM's have a purpose, follow them, and ffs, like its hard to form your own lfm. Enjoy the game if your a newb, cuz
why would you want the game served to you on a silver platter?


I doubt he was a long time vet based on his actions and death. However, a 'vet' joining an lfm and group would probably know very quickly that this was a very inexperienced group and that zerging forward would do nothing but ruin the experience of a new player.

He is at fault and being a d-bag on top of it for his attitude shows it.

I remember when I started in 2006...I would hop in and they would be off. I would be checking out this real cool dungeon, already lost after 1 minute....and then it would complete and I would get xp..

I never saw a monster, never could find the chests, never even saw the dungeon nor had the experience.

a vet should know better when joining an lfm, especially a lower level one. And to yell at a new player because the vet is a boob makes that person a real horrid guy indeed.

In real life, you start a small business...you know little about the business but you and your wife are trying. You hire someone and tell him you are new to this and just started.
He immediately starts doing things on the computer and in the store and you have no idea what he is doing. Then he starts yelling at you for not doing things he thinks you should be doing.
Then he does something and you get sued and lose your business. On the way out the door he yells at you for being stupid.

That is about how that run went as the OP described,..... the vet deserves a spanking for taking advantage of the new players..

in my opinion.

[Dunfalach]

I like talking to new players. I've spent hours telling players things they should know.

Besides the standard questions (where did my auction item go, what do I do with gems/shards/etc), I think the two most common things I do when hanging out in harbor on genchat are:

1) Kobold Assault on elite is pretty tough. I've had a level 7 party wipe doing that. Lots of shamans firing lightning bolts. Inevitably, there is some low-level person who's been doing everything on elite for max XP/favor, and so naturally seeks KA on elite. In line with your comments on HOW you tell them, I find that relating what was difficult in my encounter is far better than saying they shouldn't do it.

2) Invasion Tokens is a very high level quest. I think around 9 or 10. (this usually discourages invasion token quest attempts for lower levels. They really oughta move that questgiver to somewhere higher level or something.)

[Zachski]

Selfish play implies putting your own needs over the needs of the group. Considering that completing the quest earns everyone in the quest XP then completing the quest quickly is in the groups interest.

Wonderful, someone from the vet side of the coin that needs to re-read the OP.

Actually, let me just spell it out why it's a selfish playstyle and why zergers shouldn't join normal LFMs.

1. Newbies never get a chance to learn the dungeon.
2. Newbies never get a chance to experience the dungeon. (Seriously, MMOs are about the journey, not the destination, and DDO moreso. You don't play the game for level 20, you play the game for its dungeons. Once you've worn that out, THEN you play the game for 20)
3. Newbies don't learn anything at all. Eventually, they become the pikers because they never learned how to play a dungeon or fight certain monsters or anything.
4. You're enforcing your playstyle on other people. You might be looking weird at me, but considering that quest EXP is locked in when ANYONE completes a quest, you really are. Some people like to destroy boxes or kill enemies to get an EXP bonus. Bearing in mind, not all players are VIP or Premium, some are F2P players with a very limited number of quests who want to make the most out of their quests. AND on their very first run, they can best maximize their exp by having Rogues disable all the traps, destroying enough boxes, discovering all the secret doors, and killing enough enemies.

So, then, a zerger comes into a normal party, rushes to the end, and all those F2P players lose out on the bonus EXP they were hoping for (and maybe even relying on). The more EXP a quest gives, the more beneficial the bonuses are. And the EXP is always highest the first time, and it only keeps going downhill from there.

Also, new players end up missing out on optionals that give a boost in exp and, more importantly, "trash loot". Trash loot can be useful. Not because it gives you OMGBBQ super powers, but because that's how new players earn platinum. They fill their inventory with trash loot and sell it.

I really do think some Vet players forget what it's like to be untwinked.

[AyumiAmakusa]

How to tell someone that their character sucks in a nice way?


Hey, your character sucks. Re-roll and do a bit of research.

[Zachski]

How to tell someone that their character sucks in a nice way?


Hey, your character sucks. Re-roll and do a bit of research.

A perfect example of what not to do :D Thanks.

[Dunfalach]

Selfish play implies putting your own needs over the needs of the group. Considering that completing the quest earns everyone in the quest XP then completing the quest quickly is in the groups interest. Some groups may decide that they want to run real slow and role play the quest, but that playstyle is in opposition to the reward structure setup for the entire group. If you are in a group where this is the stated goal then of course you should either leave or follow suite as in this particular case the group as a whole has put slow play as more important then the in game reward system.

Some real examples of selfish play...
*Rogue who will not melee a mob because they like to be 'sneaky'
*Piking at the beginning of a quest
*Demanding everyone else slow down in contradiction of the game's reward structure when others have no desire to do so
*Zerging when the party has made clear they are going to play slowly

The secret here of course is that once you decide to do something for your own internal desires that interfere with the in game methods of rewarding players then you are the one being selfish. Those who are merely playing the game in the manner it was designed to be rewarding are not being selfish...unless their gameplay directly hurts your rewards. In the case of running a quest quickly in fact the opposite is true, their gameplay is increasing your in game rewards.

That's pretty much a perfect example of looking for different things. Doesn't make you wrong to enjoy it your way, just means I probably shouldn't run with you unless I'm just trying to grab the last bit of XP I need to level or something. The rewards for me are not the XP. It's the game experience of playing with others, and the sense of satisfaction I get in gaining understanding of the dungeons to the point that I can come in again later and feel like I know what I'm doing. If I ran with you I'd probably leave with XP but no more idea about the dungeon than when I went in. Again this doesn't make either of us bad players, just people with different sources of enjoyment.

Another trouble sometimes caused is zerging *between* dungeons. The one who runs ahead and opens the next dungeon and starts off racing for the end when everyone else is trying to repair and sell. I nearly got massacred the other day with my little wizard when I got pulled into the next quest without time to go change my spell preps, and a lost party mate who took a wrong turn pulled a cluster of mobs right into me that most of my spells would not affect. Never a good sign when your wizard is surrounded by six or seven mobs swinging his quarterstaff. :>

One other note regarding this kind of zerging, incidentally, is zergers who complete but don't clear. I have on occasion been in a party where a zerger blasted through the optimum path to completion and the noobs following behind blundered into lethal monsters or deathtraps because they didn't know to take the optimal path. Combine this with the type of zerger the OP describes and they'll get yelled at by the guy who left them to die for having the gall to die before he completed and thus cost him XP. ;) So just remember, when zerging, that if you are a blue dot somewhere in the black fog on our minimap, we have no idea where you went or where we *shouldn't* go.

[petegunn]

Heres food for thought , all the members of the excellent guilds in this game were new once.

[SINIBYTE]

wonderful, Someone From The Vet Side Of The Coin That Needs To Re-read The Op.

Actually, Let Me Just Spell It Out Why It's A Selfish Playstyle And Why Zergers Shouldn't Join Normal Lfms.

1. Newbies Never Get A Chance To Learn The Dungeon.
2. Newbies Never Get A Chance To experience The Dungeon. (seriously, Mmos Are About The journey, Not The Destination, And Ddo Moreso. You Don't Play The Game For Level 20, You Play The Game For Its Dungeons. Once You've Worn That Out, Then You Play The Game For 20)
3. Newbies Don't Learn Anything At All. Eventually, They Become The Pikers Because They Never Learned How To Play A Dungeon Or Fight Certain Monsters Or Anything.
4. you're Enforcing Your Playstyle On Other People. You Might Be Looking Weird At Me, But Considering That Quest Exp Is Locked In When Anyone Completes A Quest, You Really Are. Some People Like To Destroy Boxes Or Kill Enemies To Get An Exp Bonus. Bearing In Mind, Not All Players Are Vip Or Premium, Some Are F2p Players With A Very Limited Number Of Quests Who Want To Make The Most Out Of Their Quests. And On Their Very First Run, They Can Best Maximize Their Exp By Having Rogues Disable All The Traps, Destroying Enough Boxes, Discovering All The Secret Doors, And Killing Enough Enemies.

So, Then, A Zerger Comes Into A Normal Party, Rushes To The End, And All Those F2p Players Lose Out On The Bonus Exp They Were Hoping For (and Maybe Even Relying On). The More Exp A Quest Gives, The More Beneficial The Bonuses Are. And The Exp Is Always Highest The First Time, And It Only Keeps Going Downhill From There.

Also, New Players End Up Missing Out On Optionals That Give A Boost In Exp And, More Importantly, "trash Loot". Trash Loot Can Be Useful. Not Because It Gives You Omgbbq Super Powers, But Because That's How New Players Earn Platinum. They Fill Their Inventory With Trash Loot And Sell It.

I Really Do Think Some Vet Players Forget What It's Like To Be Untwinked.

+1

[Frodo_Lives]

If a vet wants to zerg through low level F2P quests then quite frankly they are better off soloing.

Zerging through a dungeon like a rampaging bull leaving the rest of the group behind is not helping the rest of the party in any way, it is not teaching them anything, and it is actually lowering both their enjoyment of the game and their experience in learning the game.

Ever wonder how people get to be high level or even TRs with absolutely no clue how to play the game, or the basics of the D20 mechanics? It's because every group they join gets completed and they don't have a bloody clue what happened, why, and how. Attitudes aside, it's mind boggling some of the incompetent play at high levels I have come across. I would expect that kind of stuff in the harbor, not in the Vale. But it happens.

I've got no problem with zerging quests, fast completions, xp runs and the rest. I just don't ruin other peoples gaming by doing it in their groups.

I've very rarely encountered vet anger against a new player like the OP described. But I would like to see a little more understanding from the vets and a little more openness to learn from the new players.

Hey in a perfect world it could happen. ;)

[paintsbygun]

Sometimes you need to touch the stove to make sure its hot.
Here is a different angle on the OP story. I started out not that long ago and was lucky enough to group up with some great and experienced players. It wasnt a grind it was a blur. I realized trying to keep up was far more important than trying to match kills or solve puzzles. I quickly realized sometimes its better to stay quiet and let people think your ignorant than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. I could tell these players know the game far better than most and I wanted to learn from them, so I kept quiet listened and learned. Now this inital character is capped, bring on the greensteel, the epic raid loot I want it all and I want it now!
Sure the ride to my first capped toon was a blur but here I was with a quality build and alot of great gear able to run some epic and rarely fail a shroud. I quickly developed an auction house addiction and wasted a small fortune on useless weapons and gear trying to outfit that next new character to cap so I can double my ingredients and chances at the big loot. I started to PUG...
Pugging after running with a group of serious vets is painful. I mean really painful. Nobody knows where to go, monsters are coming from everywhere and the sound of ding ding ding sounds like a christmas melody. Of course I'm no help cause the last time I ran through this quest I just followed the blade barriers and dead mob piles. So I get frustrated and start soloing everything at such a slow rate that the loot/resources spent ratio doesnt make sense. Thats when it really hit me. 4 years of experience isnt something you can just zerg through. I think of it everytime I log with my main and look at the greensteel I have. Someone had to figure out the recipes and many probably failed at the recipes along the way. Experience is so important to make you a better player, sure natural talent and understanding of the game can make you good. But knowing what it feels like when you answer the dragon wrong and get hosed down with acid is difference between a good player and a great player. The great vets have the patience and understanding to empathize with the new player but also should be respected for their knowledge and not expected to babysit. In the same respect, new players should be allowed to make their own mistakes and not berated by the experienced. As it has been said in here before, many of us pay to play this game, we all should be able to have an enjoyable time. If your new, dont fall into the "sense of entitlement" trap, dont be afraid to ask questions and enjoy the experience. If your an established Hero of Stormreach dont judge, dont condescend and make sure your still enjoying the game hell maybe even adopt a puglet. And if your anything like me try to find a balance between the two learn the quests and have fun. Appreciate the help you get but try not to be too big of a burden.

Good Thread.

[Frodo_Lives]

The difference in twinked and untwinked is massive at low levels. Even at high levels, try keeping up with a TR'd character in GH that has a few greensteel items vs your regular gear on a first time around toon. It makes a huge difference.

I am running with a static group on a new server where we don't have tomes, gear, plat to boost up our characters. The difference in damage taken, damage output, being self suffecient is remarkable.

I can run a new character up to 10 or 12 mostly solo with absolutely no problems as most vets can. Simply because with the gear being passed down I can confidently walk into most dungeons with the knowledge that I have both the tools to do the job, the protection to be survivable, and the gear to survive a bad move.

With the knowledge I have gained playing for years makes it possible to keep up but it is much harder going in bare bones so I have some understanding of what it's like.

[Fenrisulven6]

Considering that completing the quest earns everyone in the quest XP then completing the quest quickly is in the groups interest.

Consider asking first. Dont just assume you know whats in the group's best interest.

I zerg in real life. So when I play this game, it more about having fun than getting XP.



Some groups may decide that they want to run real slow and role play the quest

This is another false assumption. Just because I dont want to race you thru the dungeon doesn't mean I would rather stop and sniff flowers. There are many speeds between "slowplay" and "zerg".


If you are in a group where this is the stated goal then of course you should either leave or follow suite as in this particular case the group as a whole has put slow play as more important then the in game reward system.

This works both ways. If the LFM doesnt specify "fast" or "zerg" then you either leave or follow suite. I'm always amazed at zergers who would inflict their playstyle on others as if its the default. They give advice they refuse to follow.


running a quest quickly in fact the opposite is true, their gameplay is increasing your in game rewards.

Again, that is merely a justification for selfish play. Its not your place to assume I prioritize my in game rewards over enjoyment of playing. You really need to take a step back and look at it from the other side.

For example, I could give a rats tail about XP or loot. For me, the fun of playing this game is the tactics and teamwork I experience in a tight group. My 8th can zerg Tear Elite solo, so I'm not impressed when you do it and disrupt the party dynamics.

Please stop making assumptions about what is "best" for the rest of us.

[samthedagger]

People play the game for enjoyment. Imagine your a new player to the game. You just rolled up a fighter, because you want to kill things. You have a good time running Korthos and achieve level 3, you are ready to group now. You join a group and it has some "experienced" players in it. Your all level 3. The quest goes much smoother then the Korthos ones you did by yourself and is quick because everyone seems to know where to go. At the end of the first quest you realize your kill count is 4 and the other fighter has 57. Wow, you plan to step it up next quest. You run ahead a little to keep up with the other fighter, you quickly get surrounded, and ding!, you die. All of a sudden the other fighter starts screaming at you that you screwed his XP and you must have used con as a dump stat, he then starts talking about my DDO and your garbage +1 longsword, he then continues to rant and ridicule you. And the entire time you have no idea what he is talking about.

Does this sound enjoyable? It happens every day.

At the same time this is happening there is a fighter on his second TR. He is zerging water works with a pug. He made sure to gear up with stacks of every pot and cake he may need, and then grabbed his min lvl 2 Maelstrom from back in the day. Things go fine in part one, the group somewhat keeps up. He zones into part 2 and starts clearing. Suddenly some pug fighter runs up and aggros everyting in the quest. No big deal for the TR, but the stupid pug has no buffs and dies almost immediatly. Great, there goes 10% xp, and taking him to the rez shine is going to make the quest last twice as long. I have to myddo this guy, how could a fighter possibly go down that fast. OMG, a 10 con. Really? I need to help this guy out and call him out in quest for his own good.

How do you tell someone thier character sucks in a nice way? The reality is that no matter how good the new player is, when compared to the vet, the gap is so far that the new player can not even comprehend it. The cause of the gap is not actually in play skill, it is in the gear.

The average low level new player has a few cure light or mod pots and they are lucky if they have an elemental weapon. The vet will have full stacks of bulls, heroism, remove curse, remove poison, every elemental protection, random cakes, usually blade barriar and meteor storm, and the ever present infinite stack of cure serious pots. Top all this off with a lowbie twink weapon; Maelstrom, Star of Irian, or at the very least something with icy burst added.

The new player hits on a 12+ and kills a kobold in 4 hits. If he drinks all his pots he can heal 140 hp. This new player can not even fathom that the other fighter in the group hits everything on a 2+ and kills everything in one hit. He also has 3000+ hp of personal healing on person. How can these two people be expected to group together and not get frustrated at some point? The vet doesn't really remember what it was like when he just started and the new player couldn't even imagine how powerful the vet is at lvl 3.

And although this gap starts at the low levels, it does not even out at the higher ones. The only difference is at higher levels a different expectation exists and arguments and insults become more offensive. At this point not only does gear seperate the players but also character builds. The Djinns in epic dragon have some of the highest current AC's I am aware of. It is not uncommon to see someone beating on a Djinn and the health bar not moving at all. This is because they only hit on a 17+. For some people this is there highest level and best geared melee character, heck they even dual wield greensteal. They assume that it is an epic raid and thats just how it is. What they fail to realize is that although they need a 17 to hit, there are tons of players that still hit on a 2+. Some reading this may not believe me, but it is true, many players can hit the epic Djinns on a 2+.

At higher levels feat assumptions begin. There are certain feats that some classes are assumed to have because the power level of the feat seems unimaginable to play without. Quicken on a cleric, Maximize on a caster, Power Attack on a melee, and Toughness on everyone. But the reality is that more clerics are running around with improved mental toughness then regular toughness...you know who you are. Some are shocked, some are nodding, some will stop reading because I just offended them.

Since the level cap was 14 I assumed all clerics took quicken. The power of Quicken to me seems obvious. Your spell can not be interupted, important for heals, and it goes off fast enough that you don't need to predict the future to be sure the heal hits in time. Like I said, seems obvious. But how do you explain the power of quicken to a new player? A player that has been criticized on his build for the last 18 levels? His defenses are up, it would cost him tubine points for a feat exchange, and he is tired of people telling him how to play.

For those new to the game, try not to always get offended when someone offers advice. If you found this post, keep reading the forums, you will find everything you need to know. But also, please realize, your character is so bad, I can't even put it into words.

I support you 100%. Sadly, the people who need to hear it will never read it or stop at the first sentence.

[theb]

In my experience, every single time I heard someone berate and belittle a new player they justified themselves by saying they had a level 16, 17, or 18 character so they knew what they were talking about.

The worst common behavior I've seen from vets is ignoring new players, pretending they don't exist and doing a quest themselves despite being in group.

I'm interested to hear people's suggestions as to how real vets could help that issue, whether by modeling behavior for up and coming people, treating newbs in a way that makes them less susceptible to n00b criticism, or some other method.

[donfilibuster]

Most non-noob players that hang on the harbor know better than to linger with a bad pug party more than needed.
Even non-noob zergers won't bother with blaming and flaming. People will just silently drop and quickly find another pug.
But all sorts of players will still group with zerger pugs since it makes fast runs, if that first quest works fine then u stick with them for the whole chain.

As for said blaming and flaming, at least harbor pugs are easy to deal with.
The same can't be said of rogue-needed quests later on, or any of the full-group-only mid-level quests.
That can make some serious yelling if a party member messes up, is squishy, etc.
Or if the rogue can't find the traps or the healer fails to heal, or the melees lack dps.
Or if the caster... no, the caster can't go wrong with firewall.

[gurslak]

Sorry but no. Too many vets think they are doing new players a "favour" by zerging thru the quest and completing for them. They aren't.

In fact, I think its just a justification for selfish play.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.
I wasn't talking about players who join a group or start one and then go ahead and zerg without warning, I was referring to a group where the vet has stated he is zerging and the new players simply have to follow and not die, similar to what the OP was talking about.

[theb]

I'm running in circles in Stormcleave Outpost while I write this. I've been doing it for half an hour. I got the giant's agro, but they can't kill the mephits. They can't figure out how to target the same one and just kill it. Why why why why WHY???????????

[learst]

Consider asking first. Dont just assume you know whats in the group's best interest.

I zerg in real life. So when I play this game, it more about having fun than getting XP.

This is another false assumption. Just because I dont want to race you thru the dungeon doesn't mean I would rather stop and sniff flowers. There are many speeds between "slowplay" and "zerg".

This works both ways. If the LFM doesnt specify "fast" or "zerg" then you either leave or follow suite. I'm always amazed at zergers who would inflict their playstyle on others as if its the default. They give advice they refuse to follow.

Again, that is merely a justification for selfish play. Its not your place to assume I prioritize my in game rewards over enjoyment of playing. You really need to take a step back and look at it from the other side.

For example, I could give a rats tail about XP or loot. For me, the fun of playing this game is the tactics and teamwork I experience in a tight group. My 8th can zerg Tear Elite solo, so I'm not impressed when you do it and disrupt the party dynamics.

Please stop making assumptions about what is "best" for the rest of us.

+1 rep. Totally agree with this. When I join a normal LFM (note not stated zerg/fast run) or heck, even when I start an LFM with a "normal/slow run", I always felt noobish when one or two always just rushes ahead to next room while I pick up the collectibles or read some text.

Someone do agree that running quickly doesn't help a new player understand the quest well. I agree, I have run several Amrath quest and even now, it'll probably take a while for me to make my way across the dungeon. And there's no way I can make it on that dungeon alone even on casual, so I can't really learn my way slowly across it either.

[learst]

I'm running in circles in Stormcleave Outpost while I write this. I've been doing it for half an hour. I got the giant's agro, but they can't kill the mephits. They can't figure out how to target the same one and just kill it. Why why why why WHY???????????

Did you inform them of the extremely useful "auto nearest enemy targetting" which is by default mapped to the Tab key?

[theb]

Did you inform them of the extremely useful "auto nearest enemy targetting" which is by default mapped to the Tab key?

No four alone are strong enough to kill a mephit, I think. There should be a way to target what someone else is targeting.

Only one ice mephit is alive and several fire ones but telling them to kill the ice one first is too confusing or something. I don't even know. All are level 7, it is a level 8 quest on normal.

[theb]

Update: I managed to get in some pot shots while running and now only one mephit is left alive. Unfortunately I failed a save for hold monster and then got hit enough in a row to die. My AC is 38 but only 25% fort.

Update: the Wizards weren't doing much damage because they only had ray attacks that they couldn't land on mephits atuo or manually targeting, and the cleric couldn't heal and attack at the same time. The rogue was fleeing from the mephits perpetually at the brink of death and the barbarian couldn't bring them down. We beat the giant regardless, my Snow Elemental pwned him.

[Rasczak]

Excluding some quest situations (puzzles, kill bosses together etc etc), I don't think any quest can be taught.

Things like raid/quest strategies can though.

If I group with new players I spend most of the time talking to them about decent strategies to use. Things like always use trip because it will work sometimes, fight in doorways, kill casters first, what the different coloured damage numbers mean, what the red & black stat damage is and how to get rid of it. How to get rid of mummy rot, disease and curses, why they shouldn't using that cool bastard sword they just found unless they take a feat, why they should stand still while attacking etc etc

So no, zerging or slow play is not going to teach them anything. Talking to them without being condescending though teaches them a whole bunch. Let's be honest, there's not to many quests out there for low levels that requires teaching of any sort.
The only thing zerging does though is give them a false sense of security on quest difficulties and a lack of team spirit ;)

I had a brand new player from WoW join me. Finally convinced them to play. Ran through tutorial with them and then some of the low content. Took them to Necro 1. I automatically waited at the mummy for everyone but he ran straight at the mummy and died really quickly. I hadn't thought to say that this monster we would need to double team because of how vicious it is. I've done it over and over so I have my routine of accomplishing things. The new guy had been taking pointers from my playstyle and aped it except he didn't have my knowledge of quests. It cost him. Same thing against ogres. Did the hop, skip n jump of death and a ding was heard. He hadn't considered that some mobs are trash and some deserve respet. He based his play on how quickly I was eating through content and I had just been impressed with how he had kept up. Certain things don't occur to you and while I was giving advice on what weapon to look for, I should have added in that some monsters are to be respected. I always jump into a quest on hard, when I jumped into a quest on elite they didn't realise the difficulty change and shaman's scorching ray'd him to death.

The little things vets take forgranted are the pearls of wisdom new players crave ;)

[gurslak]

The little things vets take forgranted are the pearls of wisdom new players crave ;)

Well said and I 100% agree.

[joneb1999]

There is one other factor I dont know if anyone is taking into account but a 2 or 3level difference can be a big deal especially between high hp high level melee toons with big hp and squishy caster toons 2 to 3 levels below with a third of the others hp.

This was the difference from me dropping an OOB quest run because of dying 3 times and being left far behind with my sorc and basically leading an OOB run not dying once and doing plenty of damage, getting plenty of kills very easily indeed. Both times was with my 13th sorc and first time there were 16th lvl melees rushing it without consideration. I unfortunately came to blows with someone over the time I dropped but we shook hands later as he admitted he understood my predicament and I said sorry because I lost my temper..

Now as you know in OOB you need to keep moving but the first team did so without caring about what others were doing with many sprinting ahead whilst the second team were more considerate and partly that let us all be prepared for the various traps such as the lightning trap and the fire trap that I have seen kill so many and this awarenes of the party mechanic allowed us all to be buffed and well prepared. We kept moving but not rushing.

I did have one freaky moment when i had to call my team back because they left me at the first shrine and it was taken me ages to rest and I kept being attacked and interrupted so couldnt complete and get sp back and they had run ahead. A few came back to help. There was only one death that run and that was because the cleric got stuck behind and killed at the begiining. Those other traps did not kill anyone and I have seen parties nearly wipe at the lightning trap.

[visionary1977]

Can someone define what you guys mean by a vet, or a noob, or a newb, or a LEET player?

I played 3 years on EU, had multiple capped toons, took a break and then moved to US servers to avoid ghost town Devo.

Have been playing US since December and have 2 capped toons, 1x10, 2x9 which are on there way up.

i always spend the majority of my high lvl toons money on twink for my lower toons, plus the usuall 100 haste pots a day, rem disease, remove curse, heroism, CSW or CRW depending on race...

i know all the quests in game with an exception being Abbot... some more then others, and i can happily solo until GH.

Does all of the above make me a vet... i hear the term bandied about so much that it seems to have 0/nada/nil/zilch meaning anymore.. it is just a term used by people to make themselves feel better then the other huge "Class" term.. NOOB.

Why do people use these terms.. Noob, NEWB, VET, LEET.. does it really matter.. i personaly dont think so.. it just increases inter game conflict.. some pugs are good, others are shocking, some players are good, others i wouldnt spit on in the street of they were on fire.. but isnt that just the way we are made.. not everyone can get on... its an impossible wish.

There will always be dissatisfaction in game.. this will come from new players and old alike.. no point flogging a dead horse to try and remedy this... it wont happen.

Old players should be tolerant of new players and vice versa
if you want a fast run.. advertise it as such and then clarify with each new party joiner
if you want a slow run see above
new players shouldnt expect to be better equipped or able to tackle quests then old players
new players should ask old players if they have questions..

not exactly rocket science

/stepping down from soapbox of obviousness.

[Lorz]

In my experience, every single time I heard someone berate and belittle a new player they justified themselves by saying they had a level 16, 17, or 18 character so they knew what they were talking about.

The worst common behavior I've seen from vets is ignoring new players, pretending they don't exist and doing a quest themselves despite being in group.

I'm interested to hear people's suggestions as to how real vets could help that issue, whether by modeling behavior for up and coming people, treating newbs in a way that makes them less susceptible to n00b criticism, or some other method.

Well if they are saying they have a 16, 17, or 18....they are not a vet. Oh they may claim to be and may even talk a good talk...but they are not.


Generally a vet wouldn't even mention toon level...seriously.....we all have 20's many times over.

So that's the first clue....that whom your speaking with in that case is not a vet....and most likely is going to try to sound more important than they are.

[theb]

Well if they are saying they have a 16, 17, or 18....they are not a vet. Oh they may claim to be and may even talk a good talk...but they are not.


Generally a vet wouldn't even mention toon level...seriously.....we all have 20's many times over.

So that's the first clue....that whom your speaking with in that case is not a vet....and most likely is going to try to sound more important than they are.

That's my point. Vets aren't the problem.

[eldrytch75]

People play the game for enjoyment. Imagine your a new player to the game. You just rolled up a fighter, because you want to kill things. You have a good time running Korthos and achieve level 3, you are ready to group now. You join a group and it has some "experienced" players in it. Your all level 3. The quest goes much smoother then the Korthos ones you did by yourself and is quick because everyone seems to know where to go. At the end of the first quest you realize your kill count is 4 and the other fighter has 57. Wow, you plan to step it up next quest. You run ahead a little to keep up with the other fighter, you quickly get surrounded, and ding!, you die. All of a sudden the other fighter starts screaming at you that you screwed his XP and you must have used con as a dump stat, he then starts talking about my DDO and your garbage +1 longsword, he then continues to rant and ridicule you. And the entire time you have no idea what he is talking about.

Does this sound enjoyable? It happens every day.

At the same time this is happening there is a fighter on his second TR. He is zerging water works with a pug. He made sure to gear up with stacks of every pot and cake he may need, and then grabbed his min lvl 2 Maelstrom from back in the day. Things go fine in part one, the group somewhat keeps up. He zones into part 2 and starts clearing. Suddenly some pug fighter runs up and aggros everyting in the quest. No big deal for the TR, but the stupid pug has no buffs and dies almost immediatly. Great, there goes 10% xp, and taking him to the rez shine is going to make the quest last twice as long. I have to myddo this guy, how could a fighter possibly go down that fast. OMG, a 10 con. Really? I need to help this guy out and call him out in quest for his own good.

How do you tell someone thier character sucks in a nice way? The reality is that no matter how good the new player is, when compared to the vet, the gap is so far that the new player can not even comprehend it. The cause of the gap is not actually in play skill, it is in the gear.

The average low level new player has a few cure light or mod pots and they are lucky if they have an elemental weapon. The vet will have full stacks of bulls, heroism, remove curse, remove poison, every elemental protection, random cakes, usually blade barriar and meteor storm, and the ever present infinite stack of cure serious pots. Top all this off with a lowbie twink weapon; Maelstrom, Star of Irian, or at the very least something with icy burst added.

The new player hits on a 12+ and kills a kobold in 4 hits. If he drinks all his pots he can heal 140 hp. This new player can not even fathom that the other fighter in the group hits everything on a 2+ and kills everything in one hit. He also has 3000+ hp of personal healing on person. How can these two people be expected to group together and not get frustrated at some point? The vet doesn't really remember what it was like when he just started and the new player couldn't even imagine how powerful the vet is at lvl 3.

And although this gap starts at the low levels, it does not even out at the higher ones. The only difference is at higher levels a different expectation exists and arguments and insults become more offensive. At this point not only does gear seperate the players but also character builds. The Djinns in epic dragon have some of the highest current AC's I am aware of. It is not uncommon to see someone beating on a Djinn and the health bar not moving at all. This is because they only hit on a 17+. For some people this is there highest level and best geared melee character, heck they even dual wield greensteal. They assume that it is an epic raid and thats just how it is. What they fail to realize is that although they need a 17 to hit, there are tons of players that still hit on a 2+. Some reading this may not believe me, but it is true, many players can hit the epic Djinns on a 2+.

At higher levels feat assumptions begin. There are certain feats that some classes are assumed to have because the power level of the feat seems unimaginable to play without. Quicken on a cleric, Maximize on a caster, Power Attack on a melee, and Toughness on everyone. But the reality is that more clerics are running around with improved mental toughness then regular toughness...you know who you are. Some are shocked, some are nodding, some will stop reading because I just offended them.

Since the level cap was 14 I assumed all clerics took quicken. The power of Quicken to me seems obvious. Your spell can not be interupted, important for heals, and it goes off fast enough that you don't need to predict the future to be sure the heal hits in time. Like I said, seems obvious. But how do you explain the power of quicken to a new player? A player that has been criticized on his build for the last 18 levels? His defenses are up, it would cost him tubine points for a feat exchange, and he is tired of people telling him how to play.

For those new to the game, try not to always get offended when someone offers advice. If you found this post, keep reading the forums, you will find everything you need to know. But also, please realize, your character is so bad, I can't even put it into words.

The truth hurts but your words are real. Thanks for posting
+1

[Rasczak]

That's my point. Vets aren't the problem.

I agree. Most long term players have no issue at all with new players, myself included. I welcome new players and hope they fall in love with this game as much as I have. There is no reason at all to treat them badly.

Now what I can say though, is long term players (vets) get extremely irritated with any player that doesn't listen, doesn't mention it's their first time, are rude, are insulting and all those other wonderful qualities that are negative. Vets couldn't care how long you have been in the game. In fact I have had some awesome debates with a new player from pnp who is new but knows 3.5 rules. I'm not asking new players to sit still and be quiet. I do however expect a new player to understand when they are told not to do something or what would work better, not to get insulting or ignore me. If I say do something in a quest and I am leader, listen. If you think you have a better idea say so and I'll either agree or disagree.

[pSINNa]

A couple of my friends in r/l began playing this game at the same time as i did. We avoided grouping with anyone else, and began our journey together.


Sometimes it was great, other times it was sheer hell (we only used hireling clerics, none of us wanted to play a healer :P).Very, very slowly we learnt the basics of the game UI, the way enhancements and feats worked, how to stay alive (sometimes :P).


The player base seemed quite hostile to new players (i said seemed, it was our peception at the time), and as we hit the mid levels we started to get a decent grip on the game.
Our little group stayed together roughly until we hit amrath, and had run our first few shrouds, and that was where things that weren't a problem for us playing together, became a problem - raiding.


The entire experience had been a real adventure, we had 'done it our way', it was **** hard, but immensely satisfying, i honestly think it was the best thing we could have done.
But when the raiding started, we finally realized that lvl 20 was just the start, and that was what we had done, make a good start :).


That was all some time ago, and in my post TR, alt-itis, almost 'brand' name stable of toons phase of the game now, i pretty much solo everything on every new toon (or freshly minted TR) to gianthold.
After which i tend to run in guild, or with friends i have made along the way (most of which i've met raiding capped toons) with similar tastes in playstyle, or just for company - we've played many 100's of hours together, they're mates :).


I agree with some of the OP's observations on the appreciable disparity between 'vet' and 'newer' players, a gap that can't really be bridged, and see grouping as a problematic thing myself.
Generally just trying to be a nice guy when it's appropriate, helps a lot, remember that politeness is the only thing that generally keeps most of the human population from killing each other in r/l, it applies even more so in game to my way of thinking.


It's an unsolveable problem, there will always be people 'better' and 'worse' then yourself, comparisons only make one vain or bitter, and my rant is at an end.


I found this post to be good material for a bit of introspection, without really being offensive in any way, like a good coffee table book, an almost perfect forum post from that point of view.

See you all in game
Coit out~

[Astraghal]

But also, please realize, your character is so bad, I can't even put it into words.


There is something deeply hilarious about this statement, that I cannot quite find words to describe.

[kurand]

Actually it is not gear so much as knowledge of what gear you can use and how to play as your class.

I think you said that fighter was level 3 when he left korthos?

So we got a fighter that should have read the fighter forums,started off with a 14 con and gotten toughness at level 2 at the least.

At level 3 you can use a +2 weapon and +2 fullplate,keeping a +2 shield with you just in case,even a heavy shield will work,don't need to worry about a tower shield this early.

You also probably went THF so your dex is most likely 10 or 12 with your str being 18.

It is a rough time at this point,you cannot use +3 yet til level 4,so your stuck using +2 which really sucks overall.But in general if the pug fighter had stuck with the experienced player,gotten +2 gear at minimum he should have been able to keep up and get a decent kill count,probably mid teens against the TR getting 40+.

I've started over on all servers getting TP's,first thing I do Is get +2 and +3's always starting with a THF paladin for self heals and saves/immunities and I have almost no issues keeping up with TR's,not kill rate wise but surviving and even keeping them up.

[kurand]

As an aside,I will mention the one shroud run I did where I was getting *****ed at by someone for dying.

"omg,there goes my experience bonus,how the **** do you die in part two?" until someone had to point out that everyone dies in part 4 so you won't get the bonus anyways,to which the person was probably red in the face.

[Waukeen]

The only time I get annoyed with newbies is when they refuse to listen.

Ding Ding Ding.

That and when they don't have the stones to state that they are new to the game or quest when the question is asked.

Guess what newbies, if you inform the group you are new, people will be SO much nicer to you 95% of the time,
5% of the time they will boot you because you did not read the lfm

[Meetch1972]

Some real examples of selfish play...
*Rogue who will not melee a mob because they like to be 'sneaky'


As someone who's played a rogue, after figuring out just how awesome the DPS can get, I've PUGged with a tank type who literally suggested that the rogue(s) should go into stealth mode and stay out of harm's way and let the armored folks handle it. If these people play a rogue, they may well spend their first 10 levels playing a rogue only in groups because they "just can't deal with combat". Both the rogues in the party gave the tank a somewhat rational explanation of sneak attack damage and aggro management theory, and all was cool. If nobody tells you, how do you know?

That is rather PnPish after all, and some people will equate PnP roles with those in DDO... so while not accurate, that sneaky rogue may simply have not been properly educated.

If the vet asks suitable questions, and the newbie asks suitable questions, either they can go their separate ways before things get ugly or make it work better for both of them. In the OP's post, newbie-guy should have asked vet-guy how it was they got so many kills, and the vet-guy should have asked a few pertinent questions to figure out how new newbie-guy was when he lagged that much behind in the first kill count. Both are at fault, but one can re-learn what the newbie limits are and become a better leader from a little bit of communication while the other can learn more about how to improve their play style. Communication is good, 'm'kay?

That translates right up to the L20 who joins a Shroud PUG on normal and says "Hey guys, believe it or not I haven't run this before. Yes I am flagged, I'm not a total n00b. I'm sure I'll get the hang of it, but can someone give me a quick run-down on what I need and who I should follow?" and the shroud veteran who lets them know roughly what they'll need to be effective for their class and doesn't boot them just 'cos they've never done the quest before.

[Dunfalach]

You know, on the mention of kill count, one thing DDO's xp chart doesn't have that the FPS world has (first person shooter) is a kill assist count. There have been times playing shooters that I have led the kill assist list and yet had very few kills, simply because my damage output wasn't instantly lethal and someone else always got the second shot. Almost dead doesn't count on killboards. But by the same token, it doesn't matter who kills them as long as they're dead, if the objective is mission completion.

My grandfather used to say there's no one better than you, and no one worse than you. There's those better off (in money, talents, intelligence, whatever) and those worse off. But there's no one better or worse than you. The value of a person is still the same. Or as Horton said in Dr. Seuss "A person's a person, no matter how small."

[Gremmlynn]

Actually it is not gear so much as knowledge of what gear you can use and how to play as your class.

I think you said that fighter was level 3 when he left korthos?

So we got a fighter that should have read the fighter forums,started off with a 14 con and gotten toughness at level 2 at the least.

At level 3 you can use a +2 weapon and +2 fullplate,keeping a +2 shield with you just in case,even a heavy shield will work,don't need to worry about a tower shield this early.

You also probably went THF so your dex is most likely 10 or 12 with your str being 18.

It is a rough time at this point,you cannot use +3 yet til level 4,so your stuck using +2 which really sucks overall.But in general if the pug fighter had stuck with the experienced player,gotten +2 gear at minimum he should have been able to keep up and get a decent kill count,probably mid teens against the TR getting 40+.

I've started over on all servers getting TP's,first thing I do Is get +2 and +3's always starting with a THF paladin for self heals and saves/immunities and I have almost no issues keeping up with TR's,not kill rate wise but surviving and even keeping them up.Most likely the level 3 was in battleworn chainmail and swinging an ember greataxe as he just got off Khorthos. Personally, I generally get my +2's as soon as the loot gods see fit in giving them to me, but then I tend to be rather frugal and save my plat for things I actually need.

[Fireball241]

DDO has gone mainstream. It is up from 11 to the 3rd most popular MMO. They are advertising on Yahoo, and facebook. That means the gamer will be side by side with the not so much gamer . That means that grandma that use to farm on facebook might try this out because it is free. There will be all kinds using this now. Getting upset at someone in the game over xp or gameplay is more likely to be reported. Be respectful and patient with others and you will be able to play this game for a very long time. It is becoming a very large community.

[Visty]

DDO has gone mainstream. It is up from 11 to the 3rd most popular MMO. They are advertising on Yahoo, and facebook. That means the gamer will be side by side with the not so much gamer . That means that grandma that use to farm on facebook might try this out because it is free. There will be all kinds using this now. Getting upset at someone in the game over xp or gameplay is more likely to be reported. Be respectful and patient with others and you will be able to play this game for a very long time. It is becoming a very large community.

stop saying that noobs do it right and everyone else does it wrong

[Fireball241]

stop saying that noobs do it right and everyone else does it wrong

Wow. :roll

Not what I meant.

(fallout from another thread, geezh)

[Visty]

Wow. :roll

Not what I meant.

(fallout from another thread, geezh)

maybe not what you meant but what you wrote

you said
"Be respectful and patient with others"
so if someone screws my fun, i shall respect him for that?

yeah

[Gunga]

Brac +1.

Prolific midnight ramblins.

[Fireball241]

I don't think anyone wants to ruin some ones fun intentionally. There are however all types of personalities in the game and people play for different reasons.

There needs to be a way to differentiate between new and exp players. There should also be a way to put someone on a no play list, so if you see them you can decide, without stirring the pot if you want to continue with them. There needs to be information in the game about time played overall. Even if a vet starts a new account he needs to be able to put down how many years of play he has. Also when you decide a toon is someone you don't want to play with, any other toon on that account should be flagged on your no play list. It doesn't need to be obvious to the person you don't want to play with. You just quitly leave the group or tell your buddies.

[Kyln]

maybe not what you meant but what you wrote

you said
"Be respectful and patient with others"
so if someone screws my fun, i shall respect him for that?

yeah

Easy there. How can you find, "Be respectful and patient with others," offensive?

I think you are missing the whole point of the OP. By seeing things only according to your own point of view and not affording other players respect, (you don't respect them for messing up, you give each other player a base level of respect) you jeopardize fun for everyone. If someone types something, and then goes back to try to clarify their point, it does no good to say, "maybe not what you meant but what you wrote." That is just being silly. We're all trying to communicate with each other, and refusing to acknowledge the sources clarification in favor of your own interpretation is antagonistic and unproductive.

Is mutual respect such a foreign concept? As an virtual community, players need to respect one another, both newbie and vet, or I fail to see how the game will remain a positive experience for enough players to keep the servers going. That doesn't mean we have to tolerate bad behavior from other players, but a habit of politeness and respect goes a long way in creating a fun environment. Most of us tend to group with guilds or friends anyways, so it shouldn't be too hard to play nice on the occasion we have to group with strangers.

[luxxe]

I started playing recently. I have a level 5 Paladin (I think he's 5 now.. :-) First, a little about me, I think its relevant. I am in my mid 30s, married and I'm a "normal" guy (for lack of a better word) that pays a mortgage, etc. I only bring this up because I think there is a bad stereo-type that the people that play this game are, well, one all male, obnoxious teenagers who are bad with girls (in real life) or, if around my age, still live in their mother's basement and have no friends. We all know this is not the case. Also, I think it's relevant to see where I am coming from.

I started playing because I enjoy these types of games. However, by no means would I consider myself a hardcore expert nor do I want to be. I did some research and it seemed to me Paladin would be a good class to solo with, which is what I primarily wanted to do. I wasn't interested in being in some guild (although I joined an unguilded guild for the benefits, which is great) or really making friends for that matter. I just wanted to enjoy a good game that involves some thinking. I did group once for that Kolbold quest when you need to kill like 200 of them or something like that. It went smoothly and I was lucky to have grouped up with some nice people. I am seeing now that you do need help with some of these later quests and while having your hireling helps, having a real group may makes things go smoother. However, with that said, I am too old nor do I have the patience to deal with arrogant little sh@#s.

I actually would welcome the advice from an experienced player. I really do not have the time to extensively research the best ways to fit out or buff your character. I think I am doing an okay job, but receiving tutelage from a serious vet is priceless.

I also don't understand why people get ****y with each other over such stupid stuff; may be it's my age, I don't know. If you lose some XP, you lose some XP, it's not the end of the world. That should be the worst thing that happens to you on a given day. Like I said, while I haven't really been a "social" player, most of my interactions within the community have been positive and the people seem to be genuinely good people. I really only had one annoying experience.

As a man, my attitude or advice would be if you're new, like anything in life, listen. This actually has been a problem with this new generation as whole and its reflective in their attitude about everything. I see it at work all the time. One, hahaha, well, their so soft and two, which is my real point, they think they're entitled to everything and know everything. You don't and your entitled to nothing! Open your ears, instead of your mouth.

If you're a vet, and I can relate to this in my everyday life, we have a lot of young people in our office who need...hmm training I guess is the right word :-), try and have patience. If someone is a jerk, just cut them off. They screw you once, you learned not to deal with them again. At some point you'll find someone like me that will listen and learn from you, I'm sure. And if they really respect your knowledge and want to learn, and you spend a little time with them, you will find it rewarding.

[Fireball241]

Mutual respect should be offered first, and then based on game play, and more importantly expectations... taken away. Grammar aside real life I am responsible for the safety of 100s of lives everyday and supervise about 10-20 people on a daily basis (here comes the flame). I can tell you that knowing the exp level of those you are working with enhances mutual respect. I worked with newbies and experienced associates. Honesty and honor keep our operation safe and running smoothly. Maintaining mutual respect and good communication is based on expectations. It is reviewed with employees on a regular basis.

So having a meter to measure expectations is important when working with others.

[Thrudh]

I started playing recently. I have a level 5 Paladin (I think he's 5 now.. :-) First, a little about me, I think its relevant. I am in my mid 30s, married and I'm a "normal" guy (for lack of a better word) that pays a mortgage, etc. I only bring this up because I think there is a bad stereo-type that the people that play this game are, well, one all male, obnoxious teenagers who are bad with girls (in real life) or, if around my age, still live in their mother's basement and have no friends. We all know this is not the case. Also, I think it's relevant to see where I am coming from.

I started playing because I enjoy these types of games. However, by no means would I consider myself a hardcore expert nor do I want to be. I did some research and it seemed to me Paladin would be a good class to solo with, which is what I primarily wanted to do. I wasn't interested in being in some guild (although I joined an unguilded guild for the benefits, which is great) or really making friends for that matter. I just wanted to enjoy a good game that involves some thinking. I did group once for that Kolbold quest when you need to kill like 200 of them or something like that. It went smoothly and I was lucky to have grouped up with some nice people. I am seeing now that you do need help with some of these later quests and while having your hireling helps, having a real group may makes things go smoother. However, with that said, I am too old nor do I have the patience to deal with arrogant little sh@#s.

I actually would welcome the advice from an experienced player. I really do not have the time to extensively research the best ways to fit out or buff your character. I think I am doing an okay job, but receiving tutelage from a serious vet is priceless.

I also don't understand why people get ****y with each other over such stupid stuff; may be it's my age, I don't know. If you lose some XP, you lose some XP, it's not the end of the world. That should be the worst thing that happens to you on a given day. Like I said, while I haven't really been a "social" player, most of my interactions within the community have been positive and the people seem to be genuinely good people. I really only had one annoying experience.

As a man, my attitude or advice would be if you're new, like anything in life, listen. This actually has been a problem with this new generation as whole and its reflective in their attitude about everything. I see it at work all the time. One, hahaha, well, their so soft and two, which is my real point, they think they're entitled to everything and know everything. You don't and your entitled to nothing! Open your ears, instead of your mouth.

If you're a vet, and I can relate to this in my everyday life, we have a lot of young people in our office who need...hmm training I guess is the right word :-), try and have patience. If someone is a jerk, just cut them off. They screw you once, you learned not to deal with them again. At some point you'll find someone like me that will listen and learn from you, I'm sure. And if they really respect your knowledge and want to learn, and you spend a little time with them, you will find it rewarding.

Great post. +1 rep.

[Visty]

Easy there. How can you find, "Be respectful and patient with others," offensive?

I think you are missing the whole point of the OP
i stopped reading here

i wasnt responding to the OP, i was responding to fireball

try again

[Nexx]

Usually, if I am unsure about the player.
I will ask if there are any new players in the group, if so speak up so I can help out.
This helps because then those players do speak up and I'm able to keep an eye on them & just help guide them on what needs to be done to achieve the objectives.

It's really not fair to new players to chew them out because
they're incompetence of the game. We all were new once and learned the
game. Some people just need a little bit of help.

Most of the time, there are those who do not know a quest such as the Hound
of Xoriat or Partycrashers..etc. They ask me in tells if they could join, but they've never done it. I always give them a chance to learn the quest, everyone needs a first time for everything.

If the new players are willing to listen and take direction from vets, then
there shouldn't be problems completing a quest. And if they don't hell, there's always 'the list' that said people can go on.

You share similiar frustrations with the DDO community,
but then again think about how you would make a new person feel
when they're being chewed out over their starter items in a lowbie quest.

[Dunfalach]

maybe not what you meant but what you wrote

you said
"Be respectful and patient with others"
so if someone screws my fun, i shall respect him for that?

yeah

Not for that, but you should treat him with respect as another person. The way you'd want to be treated.

[Visty]

Not for that, but you should treat him with respect as another person. The way you'd want to be treated.

me: "you seem to have very low hp and no fortification even though you play a melee character. do you have false life items?"
him: "bah screw you, elitist jerk, i play for fun"


tell that him, not me

fireball is saying the vets should treat the noobs with respect but its the noob not treating the vets with respect

theres the difference

[flynnjsw]

I just wanted to add one quick thing here; I do not expect anyone to "give" me respect. I expect to earn it the same as I have to earn everything else. Conversely, I am not going to "give" a person respect just because they are another person. Will I be respectful? Yes, but there is a difference between respectful and "giving" respect.

[Dunfalach]

me: "you seem to have very low hp and no fortification even though you play a melee character. do you have false life items?"
him: "bah screw you, elitist jerk, i play for fun"


tell that him, not me

fireball is saying the vets should treat the noobs with respect but its the noob not treating the vets with respect

theres the difference

Yes, he should be treating you better as well. But you can only control your side of the conversation. Followed by, in that case, an ungroup and a squelch possibly.

[Dunfalach]

I just wanted to add one quick thing here; I do not expect anyone to "give" me respect. I expect to earn it the same as I have to earn everything else. Conversely, I am not going to "give" a person respect just because they are another person. Will I be respectful? Yes, but there is a difference between respectful and "giving" respect.

Agreed, in that context. The post that started the respect conversation used the word respectful, though, so that's how I was using it.

[Natashaelle]

I just wanted to add one quick thing here; I do not expect anyone to "give" me respect. I expect to earn it the same as I have to earn everything else. Conversely, I am not going to "give" a person respect just because they are another person. Will I be respectful? Yes, but there is a difference between respectful and "giving" respect.

Yeh well, I'm the opposite -- I think that respect should be provided as a given, and only removed if someone proves themselves unworthy of it.

Giving respect to another person just for being another person ? That sounds like a *brilliant* idea, in my opinion :)

[KristovK]

I like talking to new players. I've spent hours telling players things they should know.

*snip for brevity*

Frankly, the way I see it, if you are not trying to be constructive then just don't bother mentioning someone's build or play style. It's not going to make them do what you want by yelling and insulting, they are not going to listen.

+1 rep

Excellent point of view, one I share..most of the time :) There's always the people who you just can NOT get to listen to good advice, doesn't matter HOW you present it.

As to the OP...eh..my new alts, which I create constantly, don't start with twink gear nor with a purse full of plat. I start them with newbie starter gear so that when I DO lead the kill count by obscene numbers, it's clear it's skill, not gear, that is the reason. I buy lots of those starter potions of cure light and I chug them constantly, so that people will see BY EXAMPLE, that you can heal yourself and you should. There's no NEED to take Maelstrom into WW, it's WW for the Host's sake, something us long time players used to do with Masterwork weapons, so come off it, gear schmear, a little skill and knowledge is all you need. How many of us long time players remember the first time we did Delera's and all we had was +1 or +2 gear, no PG or Holy or Elemental damage? I had a Masterwork greatclub, rocked those skeles hard in part 1, freaked at the first Ghosties, and then had a blast with that little holy toothpick you get for part 2..which, btw, is NOT a -1 weapon when used on undead..try it sometime.

Twinked out lowbies are often just as dead as the newbs with nothing but starter gear, because too many of the twinked out lowbies have no more clue then those newbs do, they just have access to gear and THINK that makes them better players. It's been said many many times on these boards, it ain't the character, it ain't the toys, it's the player.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

Part of the vet/newb relationship problem that I see is this: while most vets are well-meaning with their advice, a lot of players learn best through their mistakes. Every other thread in the forums has "CON IS NOT A DUMP STAT" somewhere in it, but even for newbs familiar with PnP that's still a vague concept. But as soon as they get start getting stomped every 30 seconds, they'll start to figure it out. And it'll certainly stick better as a lesson when they know exactly why it's necessary.

What bugs me is when vets start out with "I've been playing four years and thus you should listen". Again, well-meaning but so arrogant sounding. Of course newbs aren't gonna listen after four or five rounds of that! No one would.
Especially since people who were playing in 2006 HAD to learn everything the hard way.

[Kyln]

i stopped reading here

i wasnt responding to the OP, i was responding to fireball

try again

Lol, I see your problem. You don't read posts in their entirety. Good luck with that.

[Bracosius]

I TR'd recently and was thinking of the very nice people I will be pugging with again. A rant thread then started to form in my thoughts about someone joining and not knowing where to find the quest. Or joining late, dying in the beginning and expecting us to go back to bring him to a shrine. As the rant started to form; I had dejavu. I realized I have thought these thoughts before, my last TR perhaps? Maybe. Either way, laziness prevailed. Instead of typing a new thread, I will just bump my old one.

[ceiswyn]

Instead of typing a new thread, I will just bump my old one.

I wondered why the more I read, the more I seemed to be surrounded by shambling zombies...

[EllisDee37]

Zombie or not, I found this interesting:
I just wanted to add one quick thing here; I do not expect anyone to "give" me respect. I expect to earn it the same as I have to earn everything else. Conversely, I am not going to "give" a person respect just because they are another person. Will I be respectful? Yes, but there is a difference between respectful and "giving" respect.
Yeh well, I'm the opposite -- I think that respect should be provided as a given, and only removed if someone proves themselves unworthy of it.

Giving respect to another person just for being another person ? That sounds like a *brilliant* idea, in my opinion :)Regradless of the genders of the posters, this is a perfect illustration of one of the key differences between men and women. For men, respect is earned, and there is never enough to go around so you better work hard to earn it. For women, respect is something that everyone is entitled to equally.

[Galeria]

The most glaring question is:

Why is a seasoned TR zerger pugging in the first place?

True vets with years of stashed lowbie goodies and hard deadlines for zerging quests don't pug. Unless they have no friends and haven't learned how to solo. Which indicates a bigger problem.

[steelblueskies]

Meh. Reading through the old discussion(which actually makes a nice point by getting bumped at present, what with certain other discussions currently ongoing), I found myself going back to post #1 and boggling at the idea a person thought they had experience yet couldn't grasp the gap inherently.

By that I mean I have a main. I plan a build for the next life. Then I roll another toon in that class and build and run through to about level 8 untwinked. Then reroll the slot as the same build with slight changes and run it through to the end of gianthold. If it's stable untwinked up to there the second time around, then the main gets tr'ed into that setup, knowing exactly what it can handle at minimum and how much faster/simpler/more durable it'll be with the gear and past lives and extra build points.

Also gives a really excellent idea of how it would work any which way.

Prevents expecting way too much from the untwinked as well.

This is what I call prudence, and some call skill. It's worth miles more then the gear alone.
But as always, just because it works for me doesn't mean it will for everyone, and I tend to try to solo wherever possible anyway just to test what part of success/failure is on me vs party complications later on.
Parties really can take simple and turn it into a brown storm sometimes.
If one of my toons can't get through normal wiz king clearing everything solo without a hireling I know my build plan needs redone for example. Doesn't matter the class.

Anywho congrats on the new tr life, good luck, and thanks for the original posts discussion inspired by your thoughts.

[Postumus]

SBut how do you explain the power of quicken to a new player? A player that has been criticized on his build for the last 18 levels? His defenses are up, it would cost him tubine points for a feat exchange, and he is tired of people telling him how to play.



You do it Exorcist style: The power of Quicken compels you! The power of Quicken compels you!

[Bracosius]

The most glaring question is:

Why is a seasoned TR zerger pugging in the first place?

True vets with years of stashed lowbie goodies and hard deadlines for zerging quests don't pug. Unless they have no friends and haven't learned how to solo. Which indicates a bigger problem.

I have no friends, but that is beside the point.

I agree that a true zerger puts something in the LFM, and only has an LFM at all if they are bored/lonely. These people tend to not be rude. They may not be the most helpful to a confused new player, but when I have joined these types of groups, I have never heard the leader freak out on someone. I myself will generally put "no flower sniffin" in the LFM, most know what to expect when joining the group. Those who do not know what I mean will probably not join due to confusion if nothing else.

But even when I TR, once in a while, I will join the random pug on the LFM led by someone else. I usually do this when I am bored and want to watch a train wreck. I don't complain when people die, I run stones to shrines, I try to keep people alive when they deserve a back pack ride, I stay with the group, I basically relax and watch new players experience the game. These are the times when I get confused why the TR fighter who just joined is yelling at the poor cleric that started the game literally yesterday.

Another group that annoys me are people who think they know everthing about the game, yet they TR because they get frustrated that they can not complete epic content. I am sure they were probably school yard bullies that were glad to be held back and guarantee that they were always the biggest kid in grade school. These people tend to lead groups and hope it fills with new players, so they can show them how infinite thier wisdom is and hear the ooohs and aaahs as they solo the dungeon with a crowd to watch them. You can usually tell who these people are when you join group and they are educating the other 4 party members on how to be awesome and win ddo. Then when you get to the quest entrance and they see you are a TR or recognize your guild tag, suddenly they are silent for the rest of the quest. But better yet is when they keep going. I have heard some real *winners*. Like the lvl 4 that is using greensteel to kill so fast. Or the wizard who has fireballs hitting for 2000 at lvl 6. Good times...



You do it Exorcist style: The power of Quicken compels you! The power of Quicken compels you!

I like this approach, I will try it.

[Hollyella]

I think its the first time I've ever been thoroughly confused by a post. Is the OP trying to belittle new players for not having the insane gear, the TR stat bonuses and the experience, or simply being ironic?

The first half reads like you're on the newbies side, basically outlining why they'll never be as good as those who've already levelled countless classes already, have dozens of potions and gear so elite that you leave a ton of drooling spectators in your wake. It details why people won't know how best to build their characters and how they're unlikely to suddenly leap up in a player's expectations, despite their skills (because its all about "the gear").

Unfortunately, the second half reads like you're totally against these new players, telling them they suck because they don't have X feat or X item of Holy Burst. You're automatically assuming that every player knows the merits of abilities they've never taken, just because of their descriptions. Descriptions are no match for seeing it in use. Some abilities sound awful, but have incredible potential. Others sound wonderful, but in reality are a waste of a good slot.

The post reads a bit too bipolar for my tastes. I can't tell whether its critique towards beginners or sarcastic stab at elite players. Either way, I find it in bad taste.

To the player who suggested all new players should do their research, I'd like to ask the following simple question. Why should we?

This is a game. Some people like to play their way, because they enjoy it more. They don't particularly want to fit into your nice little cookie-cutting niche, they're not particularly fussy about having the most insane equipment available nor about stomping every single quest in 10 minutes with next to no effort. They want to learn bit by bit, enjoy the experience of levelling up at their own pace and take the time to enjoy the sights before being plunged into that final battle with goodness knows what.

If that's what they want, I say let them. People will have different opinions and different playing styles. Who are we to say how they should play, what they should play and when they should play? They might take down that dragon in 10 minutes instead of 5, but that's their choice not yours. Less dictating, more playing. Its a game, and its there to be enjoyed by all, not just the elite.

[thakorian]

You might say 'politeness' is the keyword when offering to share your experience with new people.

Some might say powerplaying in a way to show the potential is the way. Some might say that giving straight advice gives them more insight. Either way, people learn best when applying the "monkey see, monkey do"-principle, so if your twinked fighter pulls a group through a quest where the rest of the party is struggling, don't expect nothing less than the new fighter in your pug to trying to do the same for the sake of contributing in the near future.

The difference between a seasoned player and a new one is the experience needed to somewhat accurately calculate risks in different situations. Advice usually pushes newer players to a point where they usually understand your concept, but fail to grasp the bigger picture. Showing them potential then again makes them push up to the point where the misconceptions of their build/equipment starts to prove true. Both of these ways still have their unmentioned merits for the future playerbase, but xp/time loss is usually incurred for parties, which is why pugging seems like a bad choice to many.

Maybe if the death of newer players didn't incur the full loss of the bonus, they wouldn't get excluded from more experienced parties so often.

[Kaledor]

Easy fix...

Never count on the 10% xp bonus for not dying. You will almost always be disappointed in the end.

[Bracosius]

I think its the first time I've ever been thoroughly confused by a post. Is the OP trying to belittle new players for not having the insane gear, the TR stat bonuses and the experience, or simply being ironic?

The first half reads like you're on the newbies side,..Unfortunately, the second half reads like you're totally against these new players, telling them they suck... The post reads a bit too bipolar for my tastes. I can't tell whether its critique towards beginners or sarcastic stab at elite players. Either way, I find it in bad taste...People will have different opinions and different playing styles. Who are we to say how they should play, what they should play and when they should play? Less dictating, more playing. Its a game, and its there to be enjoyed by all, not just the elite.

Your missing the point because your trying to divide players on being either for or against new players.

This is not about choosing a side, is it about the reality of the gap between new players and vets with all the right gear. This gap starts at lvl 1 and still exists at lvl 20. You would not call a lvl 20 a new player, but there is a huge gap in the abilities of a 28 point lvl 20 with little high end gear and that of a double TR'd lvl 20 that has every greensteal they want, 90% of the raid items they want, and a portion of epic items fully upgraded.

If you are that 28 point lvl 20 on your first character, not only does the gap exist, but many do not realize it. The lvl 20 joins an epic raid and can only hit on a 17, everyone else is lvl 20, so they think this is normal. They can't imagine that every other melee in the group is hitting on 2 and doing 3x the damage.

This isn't about hating any type of player, this is the reality of the game. What side can anyone take? It is frustrating when a member of a group is significantly less useful then everyone else, but we have all been there. You can not side step it. Everyone always wants to lecture vets/elitists/powergamers to be nice to new/casual/weak players, but realize and allow some frustration. Many vets are very nice to new players, trying to help them, giving them gear, etc., too many times are they repaid with someone yelling back at them to let them play there way, get out of your moms basement, or I played Pen and paper since 1987 I think I know a little more then you.

No one's innocent, no one's guilty, it is what it is. And realize your 28 point build paladin suxxorz.

[joneb1999]

Your missing the point because your trying to divide players on being either for or against new players.

This is not about choosing a side, is it about the reality of the gap between new players and vets with all the right gear. This gap starts at lvl 1 and still exists at lvl 20. You would not call a lvl 20 a new player, but there is a huge gap in the abilities of a 28 point lvl 20 with little high end gear and that of a double TR'd lvl 20 that has every greensteal they want, 90% of the raid items they want, and a portion of epic items fully upgraded.

If you are that 28 point lvl 20 on your first character, not only does the gap exist, but many do not realize it. The lvl 20 joins an epic raid and can only hit on a 17, everyone else is lvl 20, so they think this is normal. They can't imagine that every other melee in the group is hitting on 2 and doing 3x the damage.

This isn't about hating any type of player, this is the reality of the game. What side can anyone take? It is frustrating when a member of a group is significantly less useful then everyone else, but we have all been there. You can not side step it. Everyone always wants to lecture vets/elitists/powergamers to be nice to new/casual/weak players, but realize and allow some frustration. Many vets are very nice to new players, trying to help them, giving them gear, etc., too many times are they repaid with someone yelling back at them to let them play there way, get out of your moms basement, or I played Pen and paper since 1987 I think I know a little more then you.

No one's innocent, no one's guilty, it is what it is. And realize your 28 point build paladin suxxorz.

The point is for everyone to have patience and understanding, especially l33t vets because their attitude to the game and attitude to other players can really skew the game for more casual and less capable players. However by personal experience and observation it seems to be human nature to have just a tunnel point of view based on personal and therefore limited experience, like probably most animals. If everyone could open their eyes and mind, have empathy, patience and compassion at least half the worlds problems could be solved.

As for saying "it is what it is" just shows ignorance to the situation and its effect. Dont forget the players that saved the game when it went ftp. Turbine hasnt. That last sentence of yours took what was a fair enough observation and ridiculed it.

[Symerith]

+1 for the post.
All you say is very true.

This is actually one of the reasons why I'm stopping to play DDO for a little while. I found out that I don't really have fun anymore grinding for better gear/weapons, having most of my toons constantly on timer for most raids/epics.

Therefore, I downloaded LOTRO and started playing that. Guess what, I'm now the noob who has to ask his way around and doesn't know much about the game. Getting dismissed from fellowships for being a "new player" reminded me how pointless zerging/power leveling is. After all, we are all here to have fun, not to have the best looking & most powerful characters in a fake world.

For those of you who like to power level, just like I did, maybe it's time to realize how pointless that is. If you do have fun going through 10 lives to get that "wonderful" completionist feat, go ahead, but do it alone or with people with the same goal.

Don't ruin the fun for the new players. And yes they suck terribly. Yes they spend most of their time as a soulstone, but on the other hand, they are human beings, just like you and me, who like to spend some time playing to forget the hardships of real life. At least, they have a real life... (no offense intented, this is also directed to me lol).

Just my point of view.

[Zion_Halcyon]

Its funny, but I had a Favored Soul/ Monk player welcome my Level 16 Rogue to Ritual Sacrifice with the words "welcome. Dont die."

We were the first two in the party, and once in, he decided to get on me for being in sneak mode, paying no attention to that partly I was doing it for my own protection, and also to assassinate casters in the quest. I've played for over a year, have 2 level 20 barbs (twf and THF) who each have tanked suulo and harry before, and I know the game pretty well. Heck, I don't even mind the zerging, as I am doing that too, with the 20% xp pots to get my rogue to 20 so I can TR em into something else I got plans for (an experiment of mine I want to give a crack at).

But I let this guy goad me a bit, and at one of the bottom villages, decide to break sneak against my better judgement - result? Gnoll archers turning me into a porcupine and me burning through 80 of my 100 cure serious pots just trying to make sure I stay alive and don't take the XP hit. I trusted my instincts from that point on after and stayed alive. Note that this guy didn't have "zerging" up on the quest lfm - just had "don't die".

Had some choice words for me about me being a newbie, same garbage about Con as a dump stat (My rogue has 16 con base + gear, fyi, and myddo is borked for him because I deleted a gimp ranger (my first toon) and started this rogue with the same name)... blah blah blah.

Told him he was all high and mighty, I've been playing over a year, don't use Con as a dump stat, and that he didn't seem to understand the difference between a barb and a rouge, and then /addsquelch.

Thing is folks, don't let anyone tell you how to play, and if you aren't clear in your LFMs, don't get bent out of shape when someone deviates from what you expect. If you hate unanticipated things or playstyles, then put something in the LFM.

Life's too short to be ****y in a video game.

*Edit* and No I wasn't in sneak mode the whole time. I picked my spots. Just a lot of archers and mages to be wary of in that particular quest.

[mournbladereigns]

First:

http://youtu.be/9N93qVpk1Wc

Second:




FAN BOYS take a back seat… FOUNDERS COMING THROUGH!!!!!

[weddingly]

dnd has always been a game for smart minds - and forpeople who want to develop smart minds.
it isn't for intellectually challenged players.

with more pvp you will see how even a new player who without maxxed equipment and kill a veteran of the same level with maxxed equipment. this is the truth and Turbine has not changed it - the equipment difference is overall fairly minimal when it comes to pvp. so do not be afraid. monsters are only monsters and really weak.

go into pvp. prove thyself.

[NaturalHazard]

I remember the first tr I ran accross, was around level 7, we where all newbs in the party and here was this tr, and where where all like wow, he was linking his gear, and talking about how uber his build is, and what not. So we go into the quest and he zergs ahead...... then ding, hes dead, then hes screaming abuse at the newb cleric, you ******** noob!!! blah blah blah. Then he has a go at the rest of us, finally, its good luck completing without my uberness noobs *rage quit* :D. Well short manned all us noobs completed without his awesomesauce weighing us down, we definately didnt set any speed records though, but who cares?

Some of the worst players ive come across have been tr's, the type of trs who go like this, look at me!! im a tr!!! I got to level 20 so all you noobs look at my awesome gear, here let me link it. You all do what I tell you, because getting to level 20 and buying a heart from the store has taught me all there is to know about the game. Whats your build again? zomg!!! gimp!!.

[Bracosius]

I remember the first tr I ran accross, was around level 7, we where all newbs in the party and here was this tr, and where where all like wow, he was linking his gear, and talking about how uber his build is, and what not. So we go into the quest and he zergs ahead...... then ding, hes dead, then hes screaming abuse at the newb cleric, you ******** noob!!! blah blah blah. Then he has a go at the rest of us, finally, its good luck completing without my uberness noobs *rage quit* :D. Well short manned all us noobs completed without his awesomesauce weighing us down, we definately didnt set any speed records though, but who cares?

Some of the worst players ive come across have been tr's, the type of trs who go like this, look at me!! im a tr!!! I got to level 20 so all you noobs look at my awesome gear, here let me link it. You all do what I tell you, because getting to level 20 and buying a heart from the store has taught me all there is to know about the game. Whats your build again? zomg!!! gimp!!.

These are some of the people I hate most. Most of these people TR because at lvl 20, they can't hack lvl 20 content. It is easier to TR and pick on new players that do not know any better. The best players in the game you will never know when they TR. They have wings, but when they group, they do not need to link weapons, boast thier greatness or any of that garbage. They just make the quest go smoothly and sometimes run a little too far ahead, but you won't notice, because they won't die.

[delsoboss]

dnd Has Always Been A Game For Smart Minds - And Forpeople Who Want To Develop Smart Minds.
It Isn't For Intellectually Challenged Players.

With More Pvp You Will See How Even A New Player Who Without Maxxed Equipment And Kill A Veteran Of The Same Level With Maxxed Equipment. This Is The Truth And Turbine Has Not Changed It - The Equipment Difference Is Overall Fairly Minimal When It Comes To Pvp. So Do Not Be Afraid. Monsters Are Only Monsters And Really Weak.

Go Into Pvp. Prove Thyself.

. . .

[BraedenKern]

I'm new, and so far, I'm doing my best not to be the bad kind of n00b and I've so far had interactions with the good kind of vets. Like my first character I deleted because I myself saw it wasn't going to work in the long run, then after asking some questions and posting my own ideas, I was lucky enough to get the attention of one guy who took the time to ask me questions about what I wanted to do and then made suggestions about what I should play to get that and what feats, enhancements, and PrE's to take, etc. Cause you see, I'm not a hardcore MMO gamer. If it weren't for the fact that it's Dungeons and Dragons and I love Dungeons and Dragons, I wouldn't be here, even if I do love RPGs. I would have hit the wall eventually if I had gone it alone, but thanks to that guy, I have a build I'm excited about playing and it's not giving me much trouble in the way of survivability and soloability, even with my n00b junk at level 4. I've still got a lot to figure out, but if something comes up tomorrow that I need to know and can't figure out right away, I'll ask. Why? Because there's somebody out there who has been where I am who won't be an absolute pr*** about telling me what I need to know.

As far as the build I'm running on my main on Argonnessen goes, I'm looking to be a self-reliant tank and my biggest choices now are, "Do I go Paladin 7 and get the enhancements I get at Paladin 7, or Rogue 2 for Evasion and settle for the bare minimum for Hunter of the Dead after going Fighter 12? And Kensai or Stalwart Defender?" Either way, UMD and all the crazy ways I can bump it up will prove useful when I have wands of Cure Serious Wounds and resurrection scrolls to keep others in my party alive and bring them back while I take a lickin' and keep on tickin'. Stalwart Defender would help with that, DR when using a shield and a sword, while Hunter of the Dead helps with the healing and gives some nice extras. Kensai, however, would give accuracy and damage and competence with Intimidate and all that jazz, enabling me to kill quicker. Decisions, decisions.

Anyway, my whole thing is, other people have been playing for a lot longer than I have, so they know more than I do. They have every right to what they know and have. I'll get mine as I get to where they are. If they have advice or know a quest and tell me, great. If not, I'll figure it out on my own. More experienced players have already helped me in another way than just helping me with a build. A guildmate asked me if I could use specific gear since they couldn't and would rather give it to somebody who could than sell it and they sent me a wonderful +2 Heavy Steel Shield, a suit of +2 Full Plate, and a suit of +3 Full Plate, which I just got to use earlier and it is wonderful, and then some +2 and +5 Thieves' Tools for my lockpicking. Didn't ask for anything in return, just said they didn't want to sell the stuff cause they couldn't use it, and I'm like, "Wicked. Thank you." Least I can do is pay it forward to people who are newer than me and offer them what help I can provide.

I reiterate, I am a n00b, but I'm learning and I'm trying not to be a pain in the hindparts for those who've been here for a long time. And so far, I've not had anybody accuse me of picking CON as my dump stat. I myself have yet to see the problem on the veteran side of the arguement. Dol Dorn knows there are terrible n00bs out here, though.

[Ungood]

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-rpg027.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Well anyway, most of this is great stuff, the only difference I will say, it is a combo of Gear and Skill.

But all in all, I agree with the OP, as I have been on both sides of the coin. And as a player who has been around for a while, you are right, it is hard sometimes to remember what it was like starting out. What it felt like to be broke and proud that you made enough money to fix your gear, and have this insane stack of 6 *Starter* CLW pots on you so you felt unkillable, because, I can heal myself now!

I suppose that is why when I Pug, I try to have fun with it, I know it will be a mixed bag, some good players, some great. some poor, and some just new.

But a new player is a potential greater player in the works.

I'll see you all in game!

[jillie]

go into pvp.
DDO is based upon PvE. PvP is an afterthought in DDO, and honestly, I'm not interested. Dungeons & Dragons is *not* a PvP game; I don't play DDO for PvP either. Sorry, but it's completely irrelevant to this game. I'd be happier if it were removed entirely.


I reiterate, I am a n00b, but I'm learning and I'm trying not to be a pain in the hindparts for those who've been here for a long time. And so far, I've not had anybody accuse me of picking CON as my dump stat. I myself have yet to see the problem on the veteran side of the arguement. Dol Dorn knows there are terrible n00bs out here, though.
You're a newb, not a n00b! You're posting on the forums, you're asking questions, and you'll wind up being a vet sometime. You'd be welcome in my parties anytime - but then, I'm still a newb in many ways, with only a bit over a year of playing experience in this, my first ever MMO (the genre doesn't really interest me; I'd probably never have been hooked were this game not D&D based, and had it not gone F2P).

[Bracosius]

You're a newb, not a n00b! You're posting on the forums, you're asking questions, and you'll wind up being a vet sometime.

Jillie is right, the forums have so much valuable information, that players who read them have a huge advantage. They are able to shorten the learning curve tremendously.

[redoubt]

How do you tell them?

1. If they are polite, trying, fun to play with then teach them a couple tricks you have learned. After that show them a trink weapon or two and explain how you pick which one to use when. If they get the light bulb over their head, then explain about how to be self sufficient while explaining that you understand they cannot afford that yet, but that they should strive for it. If this goes well, you've probably made a friend and can teach your young padawan how to build a better toon without them thinking you're a jerk.

2. If they are not those things and are asking for handouts, just explain that giving them stuff for free would simply empower them to continue sucking and that for their sake you are not going to give them anything and then drop group. :D (I actually had to do this once. It was sad.)

[Bracosius]

Your not the boss of me.

[sativathered6977]

hey don't tell me how to play my toon!

[Coldest]

Full Heal! No Fail!

[Callavan]

How do you tell someone thier character sucks in a nice way?

You don't. It isn't your job to tell other people how to build or play their characters. If you wish, offer some friendly advice. If they're teachable, offer more friendly advice.

Telling them their character sucks isn't friendly and it isn't really actionable advice. If they don't want any advice then let them learn on their own. You don't have to stay grouped with them if they really do suck that much.

[puget]

But also, please realize, your character is so bad, I can't even put it into words.


Great thread, right up until I read this. seems as if you forgot what it means to be that new player just trying to get to level 20 on the very first character you rolled on the new mmo you just found not so long ago and REALLY REALLY like.

Oh yeah, not to mention alot of those so bad characters new players roll on at creation are templates from Turbine as well.

Just one man's take on it, the entire OP was awesome until the quoted passed the fingertip key press check.

[dragons1ayer74]

Good thread OP.

I usually join low level speed runs or host them when I want some company and no freidns are online. The gap is even much greater than the original poster has indicated. I can be the TRed guy decently decked out and joins a Fast Run or Zerg LFM and be the guy that get 57 kills or I can be the same guy that gets 5 kills and is scratching my head and asking some questions or at least observe a bit to see what that other top player is doing different from me. Example 1: A barbarian is moving faster than my barbarian everything in the dungeon is dying with one hit that means I need to move faster to keep up or go off on some side path to kill monsters of my own. Example 2: A multi TRed Sorc is insta-killing every creature in the dungeon while my pale master that is usually doing that is lagging behind feeling left out, turns out the player has awesome targeting skills and compounds it by the faster casting speed of the Sorc.

Usually I hold my own significantly at or above the top if that is what I have built that character too do even on a first life character vs a top geared TR. For me the most enjoyable speed runs I am in are the smooth runs that I am going as fast as I can and someone else is just a little bit faster or the ones that I am in second place.

There are some other factors:
Gear: Gear matters a bit but a good player with sub-par gear will outperform a max gear sub-par player every time.

Experience: If you have ran the quest 100 times and it is exactly the same every time you know what to expect and how to prepare. You know that the Shaman casts lightning bolt. You know that you need a 34 AC or better to be safe from that low level ogre on elite you also know how to avoid that ogre’s critical rage dance. The dev’s could likely do some things to possible spice the game up but even with random spawns and random traps quest objectives still need to be done the same way and for some people all it takes is one time through to get the quest mastered and after that it is no longer a new experience.

Game Knowledge: There are some players that do not know the basics of the DnD game or more importantly DDO, they do not know what a feat is and cannot understand why they cannot do damage to monsters. So you ask a few questions noticing that they are trying to use two-weapons and learn that they don’t have a feat in one or more of the weapons, nor do they have any of the two-weapon fighting feats. Also you will run into players that know a bit of DnD and mistakenly think this game is the same.

[muncholuncho]

Really?


My general response to such things is this: /p Do you see those things around my name? Those are earplugs, I can't hear you.




You sir owe me a keyboard since mine now has coke all over it.


Funny stuff +1

[IWZincedge]

This thread is now deceased.