Bluff Skill

[ddobard1]

I would like to get a bit information about the DC's to succeed with the Bluff skill. Never saw nothing posted about it. (Didnt tried hard!:) Looks useful when you are soloing or when you are a competent Rogue. May be some Characters (Rogues!?) noticed some values on the combat log before. Are there monsters more vulnerable to this skill? And less vulnerable? Which ones? Ty.

[Angelus_dead]

Looks useful when you are soloing or when you are a competent Rogue.
Looks are deceiving. Although Bluff was meant to help Rogues get Sneak Attack damage when alone, it turns out that the activation delay of Bluff outweighs the additional damage the Sneak Attack causes. For more information about the weakness of Bluff you can check threads like this: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2750669

As far as DCs go, from what I've seen someone with full ranks and items (and Halfling Guile) will usually pass the first Bluff check- but back when I tested it, Bluffing the same enemy again got harder (I guess I should test again, as its been years).

PS. There's also the ascended hack of bluff-pulling, but that's still not enough to call it a useful skill, as there are too many other ways to pull.

[ddobard1]

If i can pull foes when elite, or solloing, or Permadeath with Bluff is one more asset on the Character! I raised the Thread to judge how useful Bluff would be without full ranks (Ability Int not ubber!) and saving slots for other issues. (Blindness ward, Disease ward, etc.) For instance, having the skill Listen and pull one scorpion each time from a pack on elite!?

[AbsynthMinded]

Bluff and Diplomacy are both useless as designed. Much like AC unless a tank with full AC. If you can't get into the mid to high 50's before buffing and clickies, you might as well play nekkid.

[Angelus_dead]

For instance, having the skill Listen and pull one scorpion each time from a pack on elite!?
Scorpions are probably immune to Bluff, due to lacking Intelligence. (Yes, that doesn't really make sense)

[dormetheus]

Diplo is amazing. Just make sure to pull them back to your cleric first! :D:eek::cool:

[ddobard1]

Ty for the information about Bluff. Realized it requires many skill points to be useful, so we must calculate well before trend the Bluff path.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Yep


Getting SA damage on a monster when you are by yourself.


Assassinating a monster after you have agro.

Pulling one monster out of a crowd back to a place you can fight him alone. (and still get SA damage on him.)


Is useless.

[Angelus_dead]

Getting SA damage on a monster when you are by yourself.
It would be nice if Bluff was effective for that purpose, but it is not.


Assassinating a monster after you have agro.
That's one of the scenarios that tricks people into thinking it's useful. The truth is that if you need to Assassinate an enemy in single battle then your character is too weak for the Assassinate-immune enemy coming up later.


Pulling one monster out of a crowd back to a place you can fight him alone. (and still get SA damage on him.)
Compare that to the non-bluff alternative: pulling one monster from a crowd back to a place you can fight him alone, and still get Sneak Attack damage.


Are useless
Do you understand the difference between "useless" and "not useful"?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

It would be nice if Bluff was effective for that purpose, but it is not.


That's one of the scenarios that tricks people into thinking it's useful. The truth is that if you need to Assassinate an enemy in single battle then your character is too weak for the Assassinate-immune enemy coming up later.


Compare that to the non-bluff alternative: pulling one monster from a crowd back to a place you can fight him alone, and still get Sneak Attack damage.


Do you understand the difference between "useless" and "not useful"?

Are you telling me that Bluff cannot be used to get SA damage?

Needing to assassinate, and being able to....to kill something in one shot and take no damage from it. Seems real useful to me.

Yes. Many other techniques can be used to single pull a target.
But bluff is actually a very quick way to do it, in every situation, where other methods have limitations at times.




My Rogue 18 gets 12d6+12+8 SA damage. (+2 Str damage)(plus a chance at a vorpal)
That really seems worth the delay to me.

Now once you have Radiance it changes things. But until then, or until Half Orc Rogues, I think it is worth it.

Especially, on a Rogue who has a decent Int to take advantage of his class's/PRE's abilities.

[ddobard1]

I didn't say the skill Bluff is useless, that would be non sense. I understood that i need to spend many skill points and/or gear, like with others skills to make it viable at all levels. To pull the foes you need to travel the Bluff path and that's the mechanic of the game.

[Memnir]

It would be nice if Bluff was effective for that purpose, but it is not.This is one of the very few times, A_D, where I can say you are flat out wrong.


I very much enjoy Bluff on my Rogues, and use it liberally. Some people either don't like it or don't understand it - but it's very handy to have.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I hadn't played my Rogue in awhile, but I took her out in the Vale today and played around with bluff.

Seems you only get one SA hit. And of course you lose attacks while using it.

But then, we now have a nerf to TWF.....so we get far less atacks than we did before.

I don't know. If it does more DPS or less. I just do not know. But I like seeing that huge number from SA.


But the assassination thing is very useful.

I still do not understand agro from nearby monsters after an assassination.
They are not facing the target, yet seem to know that I killed him.....why?
Did they hear it? Did they hear him?
I can't figure it out.

But his nearby friends do agro on me.
But I'm stil sneaking....so they have to run around and attack the air to try to find me.

Well, that other useless skill: Faster Sneaking.
I can run circles around thse guys all day.

And I can bluff them.
And then assasinate them.

At one point I had four other monsters agroed on me, yet I stayed in sneak mode, and used bluff to assassinate all of them.

People play differently.
Chars are built differently.

Some people can find more use from some tactics than others.

But the more I try to use something in this game, the more I find ways to use it effectively.

And I like it.

[parvo]

I've found another interesting use for bluff. Combined with Sap feat, the timers work out nicely. Sap, bluff. sap, bluff. Takes longer of course. The bluff pull is something that is making the rounds in permadeath. I find it's just a faster method of doing what is already possible with distraction or sound pulls. In any case, the only characters I have with bluff are rogues with skill points to burn.

[Angelus_dead]

This is one of the very few times, A_D, where I can say you are flat out wrong.
Incorrect. Possibly you don't actually know what I stated, such as by confusing "effective" with "functional".

Yes, it is possible to Bluff a monster in combat to get a Sneak Attack opportunity. Bluff is nominally functional in that way.
But no, to do so is not effective, because a reasonable player character will lose more damage doing the Bluff animation than he gains from the Sneak Attack bonus.

In the event that there's a character whose Sneak Attack bonus damage is so high compared to his regular damage that it's actually a good tradeoff to spend the Bluff animation time for a Sneak Attack opportunity, then that character would be better off switching to a +X Shock Rapier of Deception and not bothering with Bluff in combat.

[krud]

Don't you guys ever read? He's not asking about using bluff to generate sneak attacks. Everyone knows that is completely useless.

He's asking about single pulling mobs, for the solo rogue, etc.

I don't have exact numbers, but for most trash mobs max ranks alone is enough for no fail bluff in explorer or normal/hard quests. No need to equip a bluff item. If you have fewer than max ranks you may need to equip an item for no fail. You can always try without an item, and if you fail equip a bluff item and try again. You have plenty of time to swap items back, since the mobs will take their time getting to you. Orange named usually need a little more for no fail. I have max ranks, and usually try without an item, and switch only if necessary (which is rarely). I'm pretty sure most animals, oozes, and vermin are immune, as well as unintelligent undead.


Angelus_dead -
Compare that to the non-bluff alternative: pulling one monster from a crowd back to a place you can fight him alone, and still get Sneak Attack damage.

please tell me how this is possible without activating the other mobs in the group? It may work when you have diffferent mobs with various detection radii (e.g. vampire in cursed crypt), but it's not guaranteed to work every time.

[Memnir]

Incorrect. Possibly you don't actually know what I stated, such as by confusing "effective" with "functional".Oh no, I understood you perfectly, A_D. I just use it better then you do, perhaps. Do I hit the button whenever it's off it's timer - no. But I know and understand the skill well enough to know when and where to use it best. I don't think you do.

And yes, it's very effective as opposed to merely functional in getting Sneak Attack. Provided you use the skill at the right time, that is.

So, fine, I think you are wrong - you think I'm wrong. I'm willing to let it go at that.


However the combat benefits are lesser then the benefits of the "Bluff pull". That alone makes the skill worth bumping up, once you know how to do it properly. Diplo is a one-trick pony, making Bluff superior in my opinion.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

please tell me how this is possible without activating the other mobs in the group? It may work when you have diffferent mobs with various detection radii (e.g. vampire in cursed crypt), but it's not guaranteed to work every time.

There are many ways. But they do not all work well in every situation.


Most creatures have about the same detection range. Although things with trmor sense works differently, and giants have a long visual sight range.

A lot of creatures can see Invisibility.

But few monsters are standing so close together that they have an identical detect range. So if you are very careful, you can pull one, or a few and not all of them.


Let them hear you.
Invisibility and simply walk near them so that they hear you and follow you away from their friends.

break a barrel. But now that knocks us out of sneak mode....so you now need to do it with ranged weps or around a corner.

range into a wall or the ground near them......makes noise that they investigate.


A varient of the Invisibility trick, is to stay in sneak mode with a good hide skill, but a poor move silently skill and let them hear you.....this can work to seperate monsters that can see invis.

and is an amazing use for the so called "bad" effect of the Chattering Ring, if you can get one. ;)

Depending on which way they are facing, simply allowing one monster to see you and not his friends, will work.

And you can attempt to influence what directinon they are facing with various distractions.

If you understand the auto detect range wel, you could purposely sneak in front of one monster's nose and sneak quickly away to a safe spot to fight him
Another use for the useless Faster Sneaking enhancement line. (you see, all of thse things are related.)

I think in some case you could cast a non-damaging spell on one monster, knowing he will save, and then he alone will move to atack you. (I need to try this one more to be sure) Maybe by UMDing a scroll of charm...which has a horrible save DC.


But for a Rogue, with a decent Int. It's easy to have all the good stuff and Bluff as well. Although I understand that some players may prefer some other skills. And some builds may not need bluff as much.


One thing to note. I do not solo much, but I used a Ring of Lies on a char with no ranks in bluff and pulled a Frost Giant to me in the slayer area on my first attempt.

Something to think about trying the next time you pull a Cha +6 cloak and a necklace of Bluffing. Add Voice of Master, Heroism pots.... (+15+3+1+2=21 bluff with no ranks)(and a d20 is added to that I think).(Brd, Sor, Skill boost of some sort...cha skills of some sort....can be boosted pretty high with zero investment in skills)

[Angelus_dead]

Oh no, I understood you perfectly
Your further statements do not support that interpretation.

Here's what it would take for me to be wrong:
If a Rogue character with decent Sneak Attack damage is not getting Sneak Attacks due to having aggro from the enemy, making a successful Bluff check against that opponent will increase his DPS compared to not activating Bluff.

That is what Bluff should do in DDO combat... but it is far from reaching that level of effectiveness.


So, fine, I think you are wrong - you think I'm wrong. I'm willing to let it go at that.
Willing to let it go?

How about providing an example of how Bluff is effective during combat for all competent Rogues?

[Memnir]

Your further statements do not support that interpretation.And yours prove you know little about the skill and it's effective uses. :)

But that's okay, nobody's perfect. I won't hold it against you.

[Angelus_dead]

And yours prove you know little about the skill and it's effective uses.
That statement cannot be convincing unless accompanied by a description of Bluff's effectiveness.

[Memnir]

True, true.
However, call it a judgment call not to waste my time. I've seen many people refute your posts with facts - only have you cyclically saying things like "wrong," or "incorrect,". I chose not to play that game with you beyond letting you know that you are, in this rare instance, wrong.

I challenge you to learn more about the skill instead.

Or not. Your call A_D. But, arguing with you is like Brer Rabbit fighting the Tar Baby. If you want to continue to say Bluff is pointless - fine with me. :) I know it's not, I know how to use it well, and I know you are wrong. For me, that ends it.

[Coldin]

Isn't Bluff pulling more along the lines of cheating, than an intended feature? At least, I highly doubt it's working as intended.

As far as bluff being useful in combat...it's really not, except when soloing. One sneak attack can be nice, but there are frequent times that it doesn't work quite right. Diplomacy has that same issue, but it's more forgivable since when it does work correctly you get 6 seconds of sneak attacking

I would really really really (3 really's, I mean it that much) would love to see Bluff and Improved Feint by extension work similarly to the Monk enhancement Unbalancing Strike. That is, a rogue would make an attack and this would trigger a bluff check. If the bluff succeeds, the monster is vunerable to sneak attacks for a short duration, letting the rogue make many sneak attacks on it.

That, in my opinion, would make Bluff and Improved Feint worthy additions to a rogue's arsenal.


Edit: By the way, I frequently see claims that this feat/ability/tactic is worthwhile, one just has to know how to use it. For instance, this thread about Bluff. Yes, great for pulling. But it's main goal is to provide a way of establishing sneak attacks and give certain NPC chat options. For the most part, it fails in that primary goal, and is not effective.

Archery is another example. It can be extremely useful (for 20 seconds) or in very specific situations. But it certainly rarely qualifies as a valid method of attack, which is sad when it can require a majority of a character's feats.

[ddobard1]

Couldn't find the following: Bluff check is opposed against what? Spot, or Listen, or Wisdow? Ty.

[Coldin]

Couldn't find the following: Bluff check is opposed against what? Spot, or Listen, or Wisdow? Ty.

Not sure. In PnP, it would be against a sense motive check, which is based on wisdom. But players don't get a sense motive skill in DDO. I assume then it's some arbitrary number assigned to monsters. Or maybe their will save. A dev would have to respond for us to know for certain.

[MrCow]

Couldn't find the following: Bluff check is opposed against what? Spot, or Listen, or Wisdow? Ty.

A monster must meet or exceed your bluff check by:

10 + Hit Dice + Wisdom Modifier + Bluff Repeat Modifier
Each new bluff on a critter gives it a +4 cumulative bonus against bluff.

Lowering a critter's Wisdom will make them more susceptible to bluff, but lowering their Hit Dice will not. There is no way to clear a critter's Bluff Repeat Modifier, so after so many bluffs against it you will eventually reach a state of constant failure.

[Coldin]

A monster must meet or exceed your bluff check by:

10 + Hit Dice + Wisdom Modifier + Bluff Repeat Modifier
Each new bluff on a critter gives it a +4 cumulative bonus against bluff.

Lowering a critter's Wisdom will make them more susceptible to bluff, but lowering their Hit Dice will not. There is no way to clear a critter's Bluff Repeat Modifier, so after so many bluffs against it you will eventually reach a state of constant failure.

Cow. You're awesome. That is all. :)

[Angelus_dead]

However, call it a judgment call not to waste my time. I've seen many people refute your posts with facts - only have you cyclically saying things like "wrong," or "incorrect,". I chose not to play that game with you beyond letting you know that you are, in this rare instance, wrong.
What a mysteriously self-contradictory statement! In sentence 1 you say that you've seen me be wrong a lot. In sentence 2 you say I'm rarely wrong.


But, arguing with you is like Brer Rabbit fighting the Tar Baby.
That is only true for a certain subset of people.


If you want to continue to say Bluff is pointless - fine with me. :) I know it's not, I know how to use it well, and I know you are wrong. For me, that ends it.
That position does not help people (such as the poster of this thread) learn useful answers to their game mechanics questions. If you really believe Bluff is useful for a Rogue to use during melee, then the helpful thing to do would be to give a quick example of how.

That's not for me, but for everyone else.

[krud]

Isn't Bluff pulling more along the lines of cheating, than an intended feature? At least, I highly doubt it's working as intended.
I would equate it with creating a distraction to lure the target away, just like they always do to the guards in movies before jumping them around the corner. Seems like a logical use for bluff.

[Memnir]

What a mysteriously self-contradictory statement! In sentence 1 you say that you've seen me be wrong a lot. In sentence 2 you say I'm rarely wrong.It's possible to have dueling opinions on facts, or at least be able to interpret the same set of facts with differing outlooks. I think you should know this, as it seems to be a cornerstone of your posting habits. But, just to clarify - I find myself agreeing with your interpretation of the facts more then not; hence my statement of you rarely being wrong. :)
That is only true for a certain subset of people.I guess I'm now in that subset, since these multiquote answers are how you tarbaby folks into these long, cyclical conversations. Not that I mind, just illustrating my reasoning for calling it such. :D

That position does not help people (such as the poster of this thread) learn useful answers to their game mechanics questions. If you really believe Bluff is useful for a Rogue to use during melee, then the helpful thing to do would be to give a quick example of how.

That's not for me, but for everyone else.Perhaps, but since it is you with whom I am currently conversing, I just chose to not enter a long winded debate with you on the merits of Bluff, or the lack thereof. You and I will look at the same examples and evidence on this and reach opposing points of view. So, since I've seen this play out in many a thread in the past - I'm opting out. Particularly since the OP was not asking about the combat effectiveness or tactics, but asking for numbers on DCs. If the OP was asking how to use Bluff, I'd probably be more talkative on tactics. But since it seems to be more a matter of convincing you, A_D, I have no interest in doing so since that only leads to a spiraling conversation where we just dance round and round the same points endlessly. Kinda like this current conversation... only with game minutia involved. :)


If you want to talk about this more, please PM me - as I think I've covered all I need to cover in this thread. I hope I've not offended at all, as I do respect you a great deal and enjoy your posts.

Ciao.

[ddobard1]

It shouldn't be: a creature succeeds on a Bluff check (d20 + skill Bluff value + modifiers), if the check result is higher than or equal to the opponent's DC's. (10 + Hit Dice + Wisdom Modifier + Bluff Repeat Modifier, each new bluff on a creature gives it a +4 cumulative bonus against bluff.) Instead it was stated:

Quote:
A monster must meet or exceed your bluff check by:

10 + Hit Dice + Wisdom Modifier + Bluff Repeat Modifier

Each new bluff on a critter gives it a +4 cumulative bonus against bluff.

Lowering a critter's Wisdom will make them more susceptible to bluff, but lowering their Hit Dice will not. There is no way to clear a critter's Bluff Repeat Modifier, so after so many bluffs against it you will eventually reach a state of constant failure.

[Duncani_Daho]

Your further statements do not support that interpretation.

Here's what it would take for me to be wrong:
If a Rogue character with decent Sneak Attack damage is not getting Sneak Attacks due to having aggro from the enemy, making a successful Bluff check against that opponent will increase his DPS compared to not activating Bluff.

That is what Bluff should do in DDO combat... but it is far from reaching that level of effectiveness.


Willing to let it go?

How about providing an example of how Bluff is effective during combat for all competent Rogues?

I'd like to chime in here. I did a search for Improved Feint and found this thread. I know a bit about Bluff and use frequently when I get a chance to play my permadeath drow assassin in The Core on Khyber. Movenom, level 12 rogue, drow, assassin. However, even thought I have been playing the game since beta, I have never bothered taking Improved Feint. Someone in The Core said that he interprets the feat description to be like the monk special attack Unbalancing Strike. If so, it would be worth the feat, but is that description accurate?

In response to doubters on the effectiveness of Bluff, here is an example situation from a permadeath adventure:

Movenom (level 11) goes into Purge the Fallen Shrine on hard with three companions. They include a dps fighter, cleric, and sorcerer. Since they don't use shrines, success depends on them being able to either sound pull, sight pull, or bluff mobs away from their groups. Divide and conquer right?

The cleric has cast some extended energy resists and a few other extended buffs at the beginning of the quest, but then goes into mana conservation mode.

Movenom's sneak attacks are pulling too much aggro down upon himself, and it's becoming costly in resources to keep him healed up. He's wearing a mod fort robe with the black widow bracers and his armor class is fairly pathetic.

The fighter is a dps build, uses THF and a greatsword, and doesn't have intimidate to pull aggro off the rogue. But then Movenom decides to equip his +5 Bluff gloves instead of his +3 str gloves. When the mobs are pulled back to his party he gets a sneak attack in and then tries to evade the monster's retaliation. At this time the fighter is all over the mob, chopping at him with his greatsword. Movenom still has the mob's aggro so he uses Bluff and the mob spins and becomes vulnerable. The following sneak attack damage is significant, and added to the fighters attacks, the mob dies.

Rinse and repeat.

Sometimes a mob is aggro'd on the rogue and instead of going toe-to-toe, the rogue can bluff and get one more sneak attack in to kill the mob.

If sneak attacks are your main source of dps, you should consider maxing out the bluff skill.

[Coldin]

I'd like to chime in here. I did a search for Improved Feint and found this thread. I know a bit about Bluff and use frequently when I get a chance to play my permadeath drow assassin in The Core on Khyber. Movenom, level 12 rogue, drow, assassin. However, even thought I have been playing the game since beta, I have never bothered taking Improved Feint. Someone in The Core said that he interprets the feat description to be like the monk special attack Unbalancing Strike. If so, it would be worth the feat, but is that description accurate?

In response to doubters on the effectiveness of Bluff, here is an example situation from a permadeath adventure:

Movenom (level 11) goes into Purge the Fallen Shrine on hard with three companions. They include a dps fighter, cleric, and sorcerer. Since they don't use shrines, success depends on them being able to either sound pull, sight pull, or bluff mobs away from their groups. Divide and conquer right?

The cleric has cast some extended energy resists and a few other extended buffs at the beginning of the quest, but then goes into mana conservation mode.

Movenom's sneak attacks are pulling too much aggro down upon himself, and it's becoming costly in resources to keep him healed up. He's wearing a mod fort robe with the black widow bracers and his armor class is fairly pathetic.

The fighter is a dps build, uses THF and a greatsword, and doesn't have intimidate to pull aggro off the rogue. But then Movenom decides to equip his +5 Bluff gloves instead of his +3 str gloves. When the mobs are pulled back to his party he gets a sneak attack in and then tries to evade the monster's retaliation. At this time the fighter is all over the mob, chopping at him with his greatsword. Movenom still has the mob's aggro so he uses Bluff and the mob spins and becomes vulnerable. The following sneak attack damage is significant, and added to the fighters attacks, the mob dies.

Rinse and repeat.

Sometimes a mob is aggro'd on the rogue and instead of going toe-to-toe, the rogue can bluff and get one more sneak attack in to kill the mob.

If sneak attacks are your main source of dps, you should consider maxing out the bluff skill.


Improved Feint doesn't work like Unbalancing Strike. I really wish it did though.

Instead, Improved Feint is more like an AOE Bluff. Every monster around the player gets bluffed for about 4 seconds or so. Some people like this because then they can follow it up with cleave or whirlwind to sneak attack all the surrounding mobs.

As for the example of bluff being useful, permadeath usually plays by different rules than the majority of the game. And while bluff did manage to get a sneak attack, the rogue probably still would have been better off using diplomacy to get several sneak attacks.

The reason bluff isn't as desirable as diplomacy is purely because it's just not efficient. You waste a lot of time going through the motions with bluff when all that time you could have been simply attacking, or using diplomacy instead. Improved Feint fixes the problem slightly, but it's still only giving one sneak attack for the time invested.

[Angelus_dead]

When the mobs are pulled back to his party he gets a sneak attack in and then tries to evade the monster's retaliation. At this time the fighter is all over the mob, chopping at him with his greatsword. Movenom still has the mob's aggro so he uses Bluff and the mob spins and becomes vulnerable. The following sneak attack damage is significant, and added to the fighters attacks, the mob dies.
Probably would have been better if that Rogue simply shield-blocked while waiting for the fighter to get the mob's aggro. The usual procedure for a pair of melee to kill mobs like that (while preserving healing) is to take turns attacking while whoever has aggro blocks.

Alternatively could have equipped a Deception weapon, which is not typically useful down at that level, but I suspect that Rogue had unusually-weak weapons.

Notes:
Rogues should activate Subtle Backstabber if too much DPS aggro is a problem.
A level 11 Rogue should have 100% Fortification such as from a necklace. That is easy to get and makes shield-blocking relatively much more powerful, and if the permadeath rules prevent that then you're not actually talking about what's effective in DDO.


Sometimes a mob is aggro'd on the rogue and instead of going toe-to-toe, the rogue can bluff and get one more sneak attack in to kill the mob.
That only makes sense if the damage added by a Sneak Attack is higher than the damage caused by the multiple regular attacks you could have made while the Bluff animation was in progress. That is unlikely to be the case for the so-called "competent rogue" under discussion. But if a character had added special restrictions to gimp his weapon quality compared to what's available in the game then his regular damage will be relatively lower, and Bluff is more likely to be a useful option.

But as I explained multiple times already, the Bluff skill is still not working right if it requires those outlier cases to be useful: the skill should be a DPS increase anytime a Rogue is being denied Sneak Attack by aggro, not only if that Rogue has unusually weak regular attacks.

[JollySwagMan]

Someone in The Core said that he interprets the feat description to be like the monk special attack Unbalancing Strike.

That's me!


Improved Feint doesn't work like Unbalancing Strike. I really wish it did though.

Oh.


Instead, Improved Feint is more like an AOE Bluff. Every monster around the player gets bluffed for about 4 seconds or so. Some people like this because then they can follow it up with cleave or whirlwind to sneak attack all the surrounding mobs.

Ahhhh. Hmm, well, the main character I've been considering the feat on is actually my Halfling experiment into the Improved Trip feat. I had assumed that there would be a -4 penalty against medium sized critters, but the combat log doesn't show any numbers re: trip checks. So far I haven't noticed any difference compared to similarly built Human using the feat, except that my Halfling has an easier time applying it in sneaky situations. At this moment it's a somewhat Str-based 32 point Fighter 2/Monk 3.

Anyway, I had figured that if Improved Trip proved unviable on a Halfling, it would make sense to try Improved Feint, this being an experimental character and all. Probably a Rogue level at 6 to max out Bluff somewhat for a certain quest around that range. The character already has a Bluff +5 ring from Sharn and Fighter levels may give leverage towards a SF: Bluff feat.

However I have not planned THF/Cleave into the build; while Monk attacks seem to grant glancing blows on certain attacks (twitching during the kick animations helps), sneak attack is not a major source of the character's DPS. So Improved Feint/Cleave probably wouldn't be too effective that way. On the other hand it may be possible as means of actually grabbing aggro in spite of the -4 penalty that I *know* has been implemented for Halfling Intimidate checks. Still, if that were the aim then SF: Intimidate would be better placed and there would be no need for a Rogue level.

And yes, this is a Permadeath character ;)

[Dilbon]

Isn't Bluff pulling more along the lines of cheating, than an intended feature? At least, I highly doubt it's working as intended.

Have you read the in-game bluff skill description?

[Coldin]

Have you read the in-game bluff skill description?

I have now. Go figure. "...draw monsters away from their group..."

[Angelus_dead]

I have now. Go figure. "...draw monsters away from their group..."
But you're still correct historically: the Bluff skill didn't mention that usage at first, and it worked accidently as a side effect of a monster being bluffed by a player it hadn't detected.

That's why I called it an "ascended hack" above: the developers took a mistake and promoted it into documented behavior.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Since this thread is still going along...

I recenly started playing my Rog18 again. And with Bluff freshly in mind went experimenting a little.

So, I assassinate something in the Vale, I'm still in sneak mode, but now a monster or three who were nearby are agroed on me and doing there best to find me.

Attacking the air here, running to where I was....while I use that other useless thing, Faster Sneaking, to sneak in circles for close to 15 seconds....

Then bluff one monster, and go assassinate him as well.



Then I got in a group led by another assassin. At one point we did Sins of Attrition. He had a cleric friend along who he wanted to make sure didn't have to drink a bunch of pots.....so using that star authority, and the fact that he had a fellow assassin in group........he snuck to every spawn point. Then used Bluff to single pull devils back to the group one at a time.......and we pounced on them....and assassinated and SAed....etc. etc.

What was usually a slaughter fest of devils everywhere doing lots of damage to the party, and causing the cleric to be out of mana by the third spawn point, turned into a relatively easy run..... so easy the Barbarian in group left cause he was bored.


Now obviously, boring play is not for everyone. The uses I have for Bluff are slow. And most players would just take the damage and get the fight over with as quick as possible.

But for those who are willing to use a different approach, I think it is useful.

[Duncani_Daho]

Improved Feint doesn't work like Unbalancing Strike. I really wish it did though.

Instead, Improved Feint is more like an AOE Bluff. Every monster around the player gets bluffed for about 4 seconds or so. Some people like this because then they can follow it up with cleave or whirlwind to sneak attack all the surrounding mobs.

As for the example of bluff being useful, permadeath usually plays by different rules than the majority of the game. And while bluff did manage to get a sneak attack, the rogue probably still would have been better off using diplomacy to get several sneak attacks.

The reason bluff isn't as desirable as diplomacy is purely because it's just not efficient. You waste a lot of time going through the motions with bluff when all that time you could have been simply attacking, or using diplomacy instead. Improved Feint fixes the problem slightly, but it's still only giving one sneak attack for the time invested.

I have to be honest. The reason why I don't use diplomacy and never will choose it as a feat on any of my characters is because I've always thought of it should be a non-combat skill. D&D 4e got that right (which makes it one of it's many virtues): even in a "just a game" setting, I can't imagine a character using diplomacy to convince a bloodthirsty demon to attack some other target.

Diplomacy, in my opinion, belong to skill challenges and non-combat settings, not the heat of battle. Bluff, on the other hand, could be considered a combat tactic to throw the enemy off balance and earn the rogue another opportunity to sneak attack.

Too bad Improved Feint doesn't work like Unbalancing Strike. I still think Bluff is useful because my permadeath rogues usually have low strength and **** dps when they are not getting sneak attacks.

Movan,

thecorehc.home.comcast.net
Guild level 21 and climbing

[krud]

But you're still correct historically: the Bluff skill didn't mention that usage at first, and it worked accidently as a side effect of a monster being bluffed by a player it hadn't detected.

That's why I called it an "ascended hack" above: the developers took a mistake and promoted it into documented behavior.
At least it's a logical "mistake" to promote for bluff. It makes perfect sense that bluff would be able to do so; i.e create a distraction to lure a mob away.

"psst... over here", or <tosses coin/pebble/m&ms around the corner>

[Meriadeuc]

I still think Bluff is useful because my permadeath rogues usually have low strength and **** dps when they are not getting sneak attacks.



Bluff is useful in permadeath because strategy, specifically pulling things one at a time, is essential for survival.

[Angelus_dead]

At least it's a logical "mistake" to promote for bluff. It makes perfect sense that bluff would be able to do so; i.e create a distraction to lure a mob away.

"psst... over here", or <tosses coin/pebble/m&ms around the corner>
It does not make perfect sense.

If you interpret Bluff pulling as intentionally making a small noise to lure the enemies away, then it would work on creatures such as scorpions and zombies, who are capable of reacting to sounds. Instead, it has no effect on them.

[krud]

It does not make perfect sense.

If you interpret Bluff pulling as intentionally making a small noise to lure the enemies away, then it would work on creatures such as scorpions and zombies, who are capable of reacting to sounds. Instead, it has no effect on them.
One or two misrepresented mobs doesn't negate the logic behind this use of the bluff skill. Bluff creates distractions, so it only makes sense that you can create a distraction to lure a mob away. If anything you've only shown that bluff not working with these particular mobs is what's illogical, not that the single-pull use of the skill is illogical.

edit - Though one could make an argument that a zombie or scorpion could care less for a couple of coins gently rolling to their feet from around a corner.

[DevilButcher]

How about providing an example of how Bluff is effective during combat for all competent Rogues?

I will for you.

Doing bluff’s from sneak mode and no one else is there to attack it an odd effect happens.
The mob’s melee/ranged targeting lags, meaning it you keep moving they run/swing/shoot where ever you were 6 seconds ago.

Now this is interesting and even lets you run around to there attack them from behind but not very advantageous in melee.

Where it shines is with builds that use Ranged combat. Again if you got a repeater you bluff the mob, pull and just move around every now and than and keep shoot they will never hit you once.

When you try this the first time you will shat your pants in disbelief how messed up it is to kill a mini boss that take a part and a healer to kill.
Note: this does not effect spells or spell like attack, so this tricks for the big strong things that cleave your ass like trolls and other giants.

[DevilButcher]

A monster must meet or exceed your bluff check by:

10 + Hit Dice + Wisdom Modifier + Bluff Repeat Modifier
Each new bluff on a critter gives it a +4 cumulative bonus against bluff.

Lowering a critter's Wisdom will make them more susceptible to bluff, but lowering their Hit Dice will not. There is no way to clear a critter's Bluff Repeat Modifier, so after so many bluffs against it you will eventually reach a state of constant failure.

WOW!!!! TYTYTYTYTYTYTYTY!!!

I always wanted to hear that.