Question on Known Issue/Bug Reporting [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

Khurse

08-02-2010, 10:41 AM

Tolero posted this is the "Our Known Issue " thread

I appreciate the effort! Couple of notes for everyone's sanity:
1. If you're reporting bugs, make sure you've done so in the bug reporting tool (http://forums.ddo.com/new_bug.php?) (which can be accessed outside the game) also. The forums are not a bug reporting tool, and posting them only to the forums can actually delay a fix.
2. Our "known issues list" is not intended as a list of every bug we know about. It is a list of bugs we don't need more reports about. We very often don't put things on the list because we WANT you to keep filing bug reports on them if we're looking for more information or a sense of the impact of the bug.

Just curious,I completely understand why you'd ask that for some bugs, but for others,such as TOD Sulo's chest not spawning on hard or elite, (unless this has been fixed and is just an Amrath rumour). Are groups really supposed to keep spending the time and resources to kill Sulo, not get a chest, and continuously file bug reports until someone figures out why the chest doesn't pop on hard although it does on normal?

Completely admit I know nothing about programming, it just seems that some of the "known issues" that aren't on the known issue list, would be fairly simple fixes that shouldn't really need to be constantly bug reported.

Folonius

08-02-2010, 10:51 AM

Are groups really supposed to keep spending the time and resources to kill Sulo, not get a chest, and continuously file bug reports until someone figures out why the chest doesn't pop on hard although it does on normal?

That would seem to be the suggested action.

Completely admit I know nothing about programming, it just seems that some of the "known issues" that aren't on the known issue list, would be fairly simple fixes that shouldn't really need to be constantly bug reported.

Unless I have seen the code, I always assume it's not an easy fix. I haven't done much game programming, but what I have done, it can get confusing as to what parts of the code can effect other parts.

The chest not spawning could be a relational problem to the level of difficulty that is related to the people who are able to open it on hard/elite to the character classes of those people who can open it on hard/elite which is related to a strength score over 6. So if anyone in the part has a str over 6, the chest won't spawn. That's just an example of what could be wrong, but how hard would that be to figure out?

Bugs are relational, and a small error in the code somewhere could trickle down to create a larger bug elsewhere.

Hendrik

08-02-2010, 10:51 AM

Tolero posted this is the "Our Known Issue " thread

Just curious,I completely understand why you'd ask that for some bugs, but for others,such as TOD Sulo's chest not spawning on hard or elite, (unless this has been fixed and is just an Amrath rumour). Are groups really supposed to keep spending the time and resources to kill Sulo, not get a chest, and continuously file bug reports until someone figures out why the chest doesn't pop on hard although it does on normal?

Completely admit I know nothing about programming, it just seems that some of the "known issues" that aren't on the known issue list, would be fairly simple fixes that shouldn't really need to be constantly bug reported.

What one person with no coding experience thinks is a 'simple fix' the DEV's know that there are no 'simple fixes'.

Each time a player states something is a 'simple fix' Keeper and Mertolaskero team up and throw dead kittens at +404 and Eladrin.

Please, think of the kittens....

Tolero

08-02-2010, 10:53 AM

Just curious,I completely understand why you'd ask that for some bugs, but for others,such as TOD Sulo's chest not spawning on hard or elite, (unless this has been fixed and is just an Amrath rumour). Are groups really supposed to keep spending the time and resources to kill Sulo, not get a chest, and continuously file bug reports until someone figures out why the chest doesn't pop on hard although it does on normal?

Completely admit I know nothing about programming, it just seems that some of the "known issues" that aren't on the known issue list, would be fairly simple fixes that shouldn't really need to be constantly bug reported.

It's very situational.

Take "ladders" for example. We actually had to add a KI to tell people to KEEP reporting them because to a player, this "seems" like a "simple" fix... it's just a ladder right? Little did they know it is something that Keeper has to go to the particular ladder and then hand remove/replant it. They're standing in the Market filing a bug report about a ladder they found two quests ago before they log out for the night. Half the time they didn't even get the quest name right because it was in part 3 of a 4 part quest chain. How does Keeper know where the ladder was?

In other cases, if there is something broken and people deflect to just not playing it rather than telling us about it, then it's likely that issue can end up lower in the hopper because other issues/reports are getting more traffic. When an issue is evenly pitted against another issue, how hard the issue is being "felt" can be a part of whether or not it's on the KI list.

Other times well... we're getting reports, but the reports we get are... lacking in detail. "FIX MOB!" Ok... what about the mob is wrong? There are maaany ways something can be broken, and what seems obvious to you isn't necessarily to the one reading your bug report with no context. You'd be surprised by the number of bug reports we get that lack details because the player assumes the way it is broken makes sense to be described as "FIX MOB" or "QUEST WONT WORK" or "BAD MONSTER."

Every situation is different. Unless you see something saying not to, it's a good idea to file a bug report. (That isn't a license to spam the reporting tool. Only send a second one on the same issue if you found more details than you had the first time that could be enlightening).

theb

08-02-2010, 11:02 AM

Other times well... we're getting reports, but the reports we get are... lacking in detail. "FIX MOB!" Ok... what about the mob is wrong?

The most likely explanation is that the mob was powerful enough kill them, something that hadn't happened for several levels, and after taking their monitor to the shop for having lost its ability to display anything buy black and grey, they filed a bug report. The obvious solution is to sell potions of protection from death in the DDO store, and nerf every mob in that quest just to be safe.

smatt

08-02-2010, 11:36 AM

It's very situational.

Take "ladders" for example. We actually had to add a KI to tell people to KEEP reporting them because to a player, this "seems" like a "simple" fix... it's just a ladder right? Little did they know it is something that Keeper has to go to the particular ladder and then hand remove/replant it. They're standing in the Market filing a bug report about a ladder they found two quests ago before they log out for the night. Half the time they didn't even get the quest name right because it was in part 3 of a 4 part quest chain. How does Keeper know where the ladder was?

In other cases, if there is something broken and people deflect to just not playing it rather than telling us about it, then it's likely that issue can end up lower in the hopper because other issues/reports are getting more traffic. When an issue is evenly pitted against another issue, how hard the issue is being "felt" can be a part of whether or not it's on the KI list.

Other times well... we're getting reports, but the reports we get are... lacking in detail. "FIX MOB!" Ok... what about the mob is wrong? There are maaany ways something can be broken, and what seems obvious to you isn't necessarily to the one reading your bug report with no context. You'd be surprised by the number of bug reports we get that lack details because the player assumes the way it is broken makes sense to be described as "FIX MOB" or "QUEST WONT WORK" or "BAD MONSTER."

Every situation is different. Unless you see something saying not to, it's a good idea to file a bug report. (That isn't a license to spam the reporting tool. Only send a second one on the same issue if you found more details than you had the first time that could be enlightening).

Here's the problem Tolero.... The p[layers that do or DID do a lto of bug reporting got frustrated and gave up... Because it seemed that they were ignored for oh a couple years... How about a 2nd list on the known issues, one that say yes we've heard abou tthis bug, but we need more information on it.. PLEASE if you encounter this bug, file a bug report and give us as many details as you can. There are a lto fo players otu there willing to do such a thing IF they know that the information will be put to use... That hasn't been the case in the past on many counts...

That way players know that they aren't filing reports that are going to where they used to go.. You know the trash can :D

DagazUlf

08-02-2010, 11:43 AM

It's very situational.

Take "ladders" for example.

And yet, almost every ladder in the game is still borked and mandates that you must jump on it to climb.... go figure.

Lorien_the_First_One

08-02-2010, 11:55 AM

Here's the problem Tolero.... The p[layers that do or DID do a lto of bug reporting got frustrated and gave up... Because it seemed that they were ignored for oh a couple years... How about a 2nd list on the known issues, one that say yes we've heard abou tthis bug, but we need more information on it.. PLEASE if you encounter this bug, file a bug report and give us as many details as you can. There are a lto fo players otu there willing to do such a thing IF they know that the information will be put to use... That hasn't been the case in the past on many counts...

That way players know that they aren't filing reports that are going to where they used to go.. You know the trash can :D

That's the problem really. That "known issues list" is a joke. There was one software company I was involved with for a long time that used to have a similar problem, then after a number of us nagged them long enough, they gave us all access to the real known issues list and made it searchable.

The list was too long to print. But if we had a reference number for any ticket we put in, we could find that item. We could search for problems we had, find out if they were on the list, and add our info/names to them (so that they wouldn't think the problem was isolated when it wasn't). We could see the status of the item which went along the lines of: Fix not recommended (reason was given), fix recommended but not yet scheduled, fix planned for release XXXX, QA investigating, included in update XXXX etc. That last one was important because every so often they thought they fixed something...but it wasn't fixed. Each item was also given a priority from 1-5 (1 being "this is shutting down entire cities' systems, fix it yesterday!" and 5 being "annoying typo, get around to it when you get a chance...probably never unless you are fixing something else in that interface anyway")

The nice thing was that this let people see what was being fixed and why, how much was being worked on (which explained why some of your stuff had to wait), and let you know that they were taking your feedback seriously. It was a fantatic tool.

smatt

08-02-2010, 12:00 PM

That's the problem really. That "known issues list" is a joke. There was one software company I was involved with for a long time that used to have a similar problem, then after a number of us nagged them long enough, they gave us all access to the real known issues list and made it searchable.

The list was too long to print. But if we had a reference number for any ticket we put in, we could find that item. We could search for problems we had, find out if they were on the list, and add our info/names to them (so that they wouldn't think the problem was isolated when it wasn't). We could see the status of the item which went along the lines of: Fix not recommended (reason was given), fix recommended but not yet scheduled, fix planned for release XXXX, QA investigating, included in update XXXX etc. That last one was important because every so often they thought they fixed something...but it wasn't fixed. Each item was also given a priority from 1-5 (1 being "this is shutting down entire cities' systems, fix it yesterday!" and 5 being "annoying typo, get around to it when you get a chance...probably never unless you are fixing something else in that interface anyway")

The nice thing was that this let people see what was being fixed and why, how much was being worked on (which explained why some of your stuff had to wait), and let you know that they were taking your feedback seriously. It was a fantatic tool. Exactly... I think a lto fo peopel would be willign to give input and more details about specific bugs IF they thought it ws goign somewhere besides the trash can. Which has for the msot part been what most longtime players, thought and rightfully so considering the complete and total lack of communication from Turbine on the issue. There's nothing like seeing a post from a Dev saying "Oh I will look into that, we've never heard about it before". And then having many players roll their eyes and say, I/We have been reporting that for a year. :rolleyes:

Montrose

08-02-2010, 12:11 PM

That's the problem really. That "known issues list" is a joke. There was one software company I was involved with for a long time that used to have a similar problem, then after a number of us nagged them long enough, they gave us all access to the real known issues list and made it searchable.

The list was too long to print. But if we had a reference number for any ticket we put in, we could find that item. We could search for problems we had, find out if they were on the list, and add our info/names to them (so that they wouldn't think the problem was isolated when it wasn't). We could see the status of the item which went along the lines of: Fix not recommended (reason was given), fix recommended but not yet scheduled, fix planned for release XXXX, QA investigating, included in update XXXX etc. That last one was important because every so often they thought they fixed something...but it wasn't fixed. Each item was also given a priority from 1-5 (1 being "this is shutting down entire cities' systems, fix it yesterday!" and 5 being "annoying typo, get around to it when you get a chance...probably never unless you are fixing something else in that interface anyway")

The nice thing was that this let people see what was being fixed and why, how much was being worked on (which explained why some of your stuff had to wait), and let you know that they were taking your feedback seriously. It was a fantatic tool.

It would be nice to be able to query the bug database and have a numinstances++ functionality. I'd get behind this.

I am curious, however, as to how that affected people exploiting the game, if at all. It seems like it would be fairly easy to look at historical bugs and bug trends to predict new exploits.

Angelus_dead

08-02-2010, 12:56 PM

Other times well... we're getting reports, but the reports we get are... lacking in detail.
Don't expect to get quality bug reports unless you provide players with some indication that the things actually get read. That means listing both known bugs and NBBLB (non-bug bug-like behavior, such as Phantasmal Killer eating corpses).

It is unrealistic to expect players to put in the substantial effort to fully document a bug when Turbine provide practically zero information as to what bugs are already known about.

Also, since you have mentioned that the "Known Issues" list does not actually list the known issues, I suggest you either expand the list to cover known issues, or rename it to indicate the alternate purpose (such as "Subjects Not To Bug Report").

Angelus_dead

08-02-2010, 12:57 PM

I am curious, however, as to how that affected people exploiting the game, if at all. It seems like it would be fairly easy to look at historical bugs and bug trends to predict new exploits.
It goes without saying that serious exploits would be excluded from the publicly-viewable bug list. A typical developer (at least of entertainment software) doesn't want to put the real database online; they instead should task a staffer with 8 hours a month to update the published bug list from that database (preferablly someone who's monitoring the forums anyway so she knows what bugs are actually aggravating players)

Khurse

08-02-2010, 01:41 PM

It's very situational.

Take "ladders" for example. We actually had to add a KI to tell people to KEEP reporting them because to a player, this "seems" like a "simple" fix... it's just a ladder right? Little did they know it is something that Keeper has to go to the particular ladder and then hand remove/replant it. They're standing in the Market filing a bug report about a ladder they found two quests ago before they log out for the night. Half the time they didn't even get the quest name right because it was in part 3 of a 4 part quest chain. How does Keeper know where the ladder was?

In other cases, if there is something broken and people deflect to just not playing it rather than telling us about it, then it's likely that issue can end up lower in the hopper because other issues/reports are getting more traffic. When an issue is evenly pitted against another issue, how hard the issue is being "felt" can be a part of whether or not it's on the KI list.

Other times well... we're getting reports, but the reports we get are... lacking in detail. "FIX MOB!" Ok... what about the mob is wrong? There are maaany ways something can be broken, and what seems obvious to you isn't necessarily to the one reading your bug report with no context. You'd be surprised by the number of bug reports we get that lack details because the player assumes the way it is broken makes sense to be described as "FIX MOB" or "QUEST WONT WORK" or "BAD MONSTER."

Every situation is different. Unless you see something saying not to, it's a good idea to file a bug report. (That isn't a license to spam the reporting tool. Only send a second one on the same issue if you found more details than you had the first time that could be enlightening).

Thanks for the quick answer Tolero!

However,(as previous posters suggested) is there any chance of getting a more comprehensive "known issues" list?
Going back to the Sulo chest (yeah, kinda obsessed) it drops on normal, not on hard or elite.
With players I've talked to no one knows if

A) This is WAI, there is some extra step you are supposed to do to get the chest to spawn.
B) This is a bug, seems odd it has been known for a while, but is not on the KI list.
C) If this was a bug that was fixed.

It's not a really difficult raid, but it's hard enough that it can be kinda tough to try and convince people to take the extra time/resources to kill Sulo when there might not be a chest, and we don't really know what info your team is looking for other than 12 Bug Reports saying " killed Sulo on hard/elite,chest still not dropping"

Lorien_the_First_One

08-02-2010, 01:44 PM

It goes without saying that serious exploits would be excluded from the publicly-viewable bug list. A typical developer (at least of entertainment software) doesn't want to put the real database online; they instead should task a staffer with 8 hours a month to update the published bug list from that database (preferablly someone who's monitoring the forums anyway so she knows what bugs are actually aggravating players)

I agree. In my type of example they would just need a "don't publish" flag if something was sensitive in that way.

Tolero

08-02-2010, 02:11 PM

And yet, almost every ladder in the game is still borked and mandates that you must jump on it to climb.... go figure.

Incorrect. I was climbing all over ladders this weekend with no issue. The only funky ladder I found is one in the public space in House D. And... like a bad person... I didn't /loc it and will now have to go back and find it and /loc it for Keeper >>

Tolero

08-02-2010, 02:13 PM

Exactly... I think a lto fo peopel would be willign to give input and more details about specific bugs IF they thought it ws goign somewhere besides the trash can.

Bugs don't go to the trash can. They have to be read. By a person. Every time. Even the really vague ones where the entire report is "titan bug". -_-;

Samadhi

08-02-2010, 02:15 PM

Incorrect. I was climbing all over ladders this weekend with no issue. The only funky ladder I found is one in the public space in House D. And... like a bad person... I didn't /loc it and will now have to go back and find it and /loc it for Keeper >>

VoN5 - nearly every ladder in the climb in the north corridor (post-crystal key) are... questionable :D

AyumiAmakusa

08-02-2010, 02:17 PM

Bugs don't go to the trash can. They have to be read. By a person. Every time. Even the really vague ones where the entire report is "titan bug". -_-;

You mean the Gloves of the Warforged Titan bug where it lists as giving a +8 Psionic bonus to Str when it actually gives +6 Psionic bonus to Str just like how Mysterious Bauble and Ring of Spell Storing are not listing the actual effects? Interesting how these bugs seem to require 'player feedback' when all that's required is a description change. How hard can this be? After all, the Dice Notation was changed *just like that*.

Folonius

08-02-2010, 02:21 PM

Bugs don't go to the trash can. They have to be read. By a person. Every time. Even the really vague ones where the entire report is "titan bug". -_-;

Kinda reminds me of working a help desk when you are trying to fix someones laptop.

Help Person: Ok, minimize everything to go to your desktop.
Confused Person: Ok hang on
(3 minutes pass)
Help Person: Did you minimize everything?
Confused Person: Yeah, but I'm still waiting for my desktop to finish booting up.

True Story.

AyumiAmakusa

08-02-2010, 02:24 PM

Kinda reminds me of working a help desk when you are trying to fix someones laptop.

Help Person: Ok, minimize everything to go to your desktop.
Confused Person: Ok hang on
(3 minutes pass)
Help Person: Did you minimize everything?
Confused Person: Yeah, but I'm still waiting for my desktop to finish booting up.

True Story.

Hahaha. I know what you mean. Sometimes you get people calling asking how to change settings on their laptop and they just don't understand what you're trying to tell them to do. You tell them to open the control panel and they go 'What's a control panel?'

smatt

08-02-2010, 02:26 PM

Bugs don't go to the trash can. They have to be read. By a person. Every time. Even the really vague ones where the entire report is "titan bug". -_-;

That may very well be the case now... Well since 404error showed up months back.. Where is he BTW? But it certainly wasn't in the past Tolero... I do applaud the recent efforts on longstanding bugs. The system for reporting, acknowledging as WAI, known issue, known issue we need more info on, known issue we will fix, known issue with no fix coming soon, could be MUCH better. I know that players out there, experienced ones would be willing to work on recreating specific bugs and give mroe details about how and where they created and or encountered them, IF they actually thought it was having an impact on the Dev teams ability to fix them.

I know it's a complicated issue from many aspects... But it could be MUCH better...

Tolero

08-02-2010, 02:26 PM

...It's not a really difficult raid, but it's hard enough that it can be kinda tough to try and convince people to take the extra time/resources to kill Sulo when there might not be a chest, and we don't really know what info your team is looking for other than 12 Bug Reports saying " killed Sulo on hard/elite,chest still not dropping"

So this is actually a good example of the difference between the bug reports we get and the ones we're looking for ^^

"killed Sulo on hard/elite,chest still not dropping"

Instead you can actually be more verbose and write a description just like what you wrote in your post:

the Sulo chest (yeah, kinda obsessed) it drops on normal, not on hard or elite.
With players I've talked to no one knows if

A) This is WAI, there is some extra step you are supposed to do to get the chest to spawn.
B) This is a bug, seems odd it has been known for a while, but is not on the KI list.
C) If this was a bug that was fixed.

It's not a really difficult raid, but it's hard enough that it can be kinda tough to try and convince people to take the extra time/resources to kill Sulo when there might not be a chest

I know this seems 'lengthy' but in some cases something may very well be WAI, and reports like this help from a "quality of life" stand point. Maybe the intent was for it to work the way it is? But if we're getting bug reports from people who are confused, it gives the quest folks leverage to change it. Not always, but it's added ammunition. :)

Very often people try to "abbreviate" their bug reports, and really you shouldn't worry about writing reports in short hand. Detailed bug reports are nutritious and delicious.

As for the chest itself, I'll ping the QA folks to make sure the reports they've gotten are telling us what we need to know. If now, I'm sure one of them will come prowling.

Angelus_dead

08-02-2010, 02:27 PM

Bugs don't go to the trash can. They have to be read. By a person. Every time.
So maybe the person who reads them doesn't always do the best job.

I have observed at least four specific occasions where a developer learned about a bug on a forum post when I had previously filed a report into your official database. The apparent explanation is that bug reports get closed by people without full understanding.

Freeman

08-02-2010, 02:30 PM

Bugs don't go to the trash can. They have to be read. By a person. Every time. Even the really vague ones where the entire report is "titan bug". -_-;

Scenario #1: A bug report is submitted by a player, reviewed by Turbine staff, and placed in a bug tracker. One year later, that bug still exists in the game, and there has been no official mention of it.

Scenario #2: A player submits a bug report, and it is immediately deleted/lost/ignored for whatever reason. One year later, the bug is still in the game, and there has been no official acknowledgment of it.

From the player's POV, these appear identical. That is why we are asking for some method of determining if Turbine is aware of a particular bug. The WDA used to be a big help for this, but now there's virtually no reliable resource to turn to. And some bugs are so cut and dried that more info shouldn't be requires, but they still aren't on the list. Fog spells do not slow enemies down. Anywhere, no matter what class, race, or quest. What more information is needed there?

Tolero

08-02-2010, 02:30 PM

You mean the Gloves of the Warforged Titan bug where it lists as giving a +8 Psionic bonus to Str when it actually gives +6 Psionic bonus to Str just like how Mysterious Bauble and Ring of Spell Storing are not listing the actual effects? Interesting how these bugs seem to require 'player feedback' when all that's required is a description change. How hard can this be? After all, the Dice Notation was changed *just like that*.

Don't know, "titan bug" could mean anything. That literally was the entire bug report.

Titan bug

Incidentally the particular report I'm talking about was from a long time ago and not applicable to the issue you're describing... so like I said.... "titan bug" could mean anything. :D

smatt

08-02-2010, 02:31 PM

So this is actually a good example of the difference between the bug reports we get and the ones we're looking for ^^

"killed Sulo on hard/elite,chest still not dropping"

Instead you can actually be more verbose and write a description just like what you wrote in your post:

I know this seems 'lengthy' but in some cases something may very well be WAI, and reports like this help from a "quality of life" stand point. Maybe the intent was for it to work the way it is? But if we're getting bug reports from people who are confused, it gives the quest folks leverage to change it. Not always, but it's added ammunition. :)

Very often people try to "abbreviate" their bug reports, and really you shouldn't worry about writing reports in short hand. Detailed bug reports are nutritious and delicious.

As for the chest itself, I'll ping the QA folks to make sure the reports they've gotten are telling us what we need to know. If now, I'm sure one of them will come prowling.

OK, see this is a good start... You see if there was a list IE: Known issues.... Where soemone one would say... "Hey we need some better info on what's happening with this reported bug" I'm betting you would get it.... That hasn't been the case in the past..... I can understand how it would be time consuming.. But I think a few hours spent doimg such a task ever week would SAVE a lot of time and resources in the end. Much easier to find those pesky critters when you know what to shake to get them to scurry about :D

smatt

08-02-2010, 02:33 PM

"titan bug" could mean anything. :D Hmm, I was in Cabo last year and there were indeed some TITAN bugs :eek::D... And they were SCARY big... In fact one even stole my entire relleno :( ;)

Folonius

08-02-2010, 02:35 PM

OK, see this is a good start... You see if there was a list IE: Known issues.... Where soemone one would say... "Hey we need some better info on what's happening with this reported bug" I'm betting you would get it.... That hasn't been the case in the past..... I can understand how it would be time consuming.. But I think a few hours spent doimg such a task ever week would SAVE a lot of time and resources in the end. Much easier to find those pesky critters when you know what to shake to get them to scurry about :D

I am in agreement with everyone else on this. An online database of known issues and whether or not more bug reports are needed would be helpful. I don't always bug everything I find wrong, but I would if I knew turbine needed more info. You could put the database icon for bugs in the hotbar next to the ddo store or something :D

Tolero

08-02-2010, 02:36 PM

So maybe the person who reads them doesn't always do the best job.

I have observed at least four specific occasions where a developer learned about a bug on a forum post when I had previously filed a report into your official database. The apparent explanation is that bug reports get closed by people without full understanding.

That doesn't surprise me. The dev's are not the bug database cullers. They deal in the here and now, and unless a bug becomes the "here and now" they're working on things that aren't yet in the game. MadFloyd, Glin, Fernando, etc do their best to keep an ear towards what some of the "hot seat" issues are, but they aren't going to know about every bug. Very often one of them will respond to an issue brought up on the forums or in their PUGs that they didn't know about only to learn later that yes, we had a bug on this already. I wouldn't expect them to know that level of detail any more than I would expect me to know what someone's particular trade thread was about on Sarlona just because they are posted in the forums.

Rodrak

08-02-2010, 02:36 PM

Take "ladders" for example. We actually had to add a KI to tell people to KEEP reporting them because to a player, this "seems" like a "simple" fix... it's just a ladder right? Little did they know it is something that Keeper has to go to the particular ladder and then hand remove/replant it. They're standing in the Market filing a bug report about a ladder they found two quests ago before they log out for the night. Half the time they didn't even get the quest name right because it was in part 3 of a 4 part quest chain. How does Keeper know where the ladder was?
A bit off topic: Funny thing, a couple of friends recently wondered if the real problem with ladders is Turbine fixing the wrong thing... You keep changing the single ladders and the bug still occurs almost everywhere (randomly). "Fixed" ladder works correctly if you go to it and start climbing from the bottom, the problem is 90% of players do not climb "properly" but run and jump on the ladder. And then if they are unlucky the bug triggers (some animation problem maybe) and then character starts dropping down instead of going up. The discussion happened in VON2 when one of us had the bug happen right after passing the bridge, killing the beholder and trying to jump up to climb. The player kept pressing up and his character dropped down into the void. We were really happy about the no-longer-fail-quest change ;)

AyumiAmakusa

08-02-2010, 02:36 PM

Coldin

08-02-2010, 02:37 PM

KillEveryone

08-02-2010, 02:39 PM

Even with known issues some of your people don't know the bug.

Shroud DC problem for example.

A while back I filled out a report.

The problem was that someone was DCing when someone clicked on the fourth portal. We all didn't die when we were supposed to and Arrietrokos went into his speech while we were all in part 4 waiting to die and when we did die it was after the point where we would all be raised but we didn't get raised.

I put that in the report as well as other party members. The person that got back to me said the issue isn't a known issue and couldn't do anything about it but the issue was on the forums and someone was able to do something about it for another group that had this problem.

Players shouldn't be more knowledgable of known bugs than your people.

Tolero

08-02-2010, 02:40 PM

OK, see this is a good start... You see if there was a list IE: Known issues.... Where soemone one would say... "Hey we need some better info on what's happening with this reported bug" I'm betting you would get it.... That hasn't been the case in the past..... I can understand how it would be time consuming.. But I think a few hours spent doimg such a task ever week would SAVE a lot of time and resources in the end. Much easier to find those pesky critters when you know what to shake to get them to scurry about :D

So something like a "Looking For More" list? I could poke the QA peeps and see if they'd be interested in something like this, it could be very useful (and informative for players and staff ^^). If not as a static link at least as maybe a periodic feature at the House o' Bugs.

Sutekx

08-02-2010, 02:41 PM

Tolero

08-02-2010, 02:44 PM

A bit off topic: Funny thing, a couple of friends recently wondered if the real problem with ladders is Turbine fixing the wrong thing... You keep changing the single ladders and the bug still occurs almost everywhere (randomly). "Fixed" ladder works correctly if you go to it and start climbing from the bottom, the problem is 90% of players do not climb "properly" but run and jump on the ladder. And then if they are unlucky the bug triggers (some animation problem maybe) and then character starts dropping down instead of going up. The discussion happened in VON2 when one of us had the bug happen right after passing the bridge, killing the beholder and trying to jump up to climb. The player kept pressing up and his character dropped down into the void. We were really happy about the no-longer-fail-quest change ;)

So (and Keeper can correct me on this if I'm wrong) my general understanding of the way ladders work is that they can get bustificated in two ways:
A) If they're too far in the ground
B) If many moons ago in DDO's early life, the ladder was made using multiple ladder chunks.

One requires Keeper to scoot the ladder out of the ground (or something like that), another requires her to yank the "pieces" out and put in a nice whole ladder. If you're jumping onto the ladder and it's borking, it's like problem B ... usually. I'm sure I said the above wrong :P Keeper can spank me if I'm giving erroneous ladder anatomy.

AyumiAmakusa

08-02-2010, 02:50 PM

So (and Keeper can correct me on this if I'm wrong) my general understanding of the way ladders work is that they can get bustificated in two ways:
A) If they're too far in the ground
B) If many moons ago in DDO's early life, the ladder was made using multiple ladder chunks.

One requires Keeper to scoot the ladder out of the ground (or something like that), another requires her to yank the "pieces" out and put in a nice whole ladder. If you're jumping onto the ladder and it's borking, it's like problem B ... usually. I'm sure I said the above wrong :P Keeper can spank me if I'm giving erroneous ladder anatomy.

Seems to me a general re-work of ladders in general is in order because 'fixed' ladders seem to have a chance of triggering this 'bug' as well. I can't explain it very well but if you play long enough, you find that all ladders have a chance of triggering this 'bug' of being stuck and continuously repeating the same 'climb' animation over and over again.

Tolero

08-02-2010, 02:53 PM

Ok but a report stating as such:

Issues with Recitation spell, Prayer Spell, Rage Spell. These spells are only effecting the caster acting as a single buff and not as an Area Of Effect buff to assist the party within the radius of said spells and they are not receiving the effects of the spells. Happens always, in every quest and in slayer areas.

Yup that's a good description. This is one we've gotten good reports on last I knew (though how it got in that state is another story, and that can determine how/when it gets fixed. It kinda comes down to whether Genasi or Phax have to fix it... bad things happen if Phax has to fix it :( and you know I'm just going to preemptively say that you never ever want Phax to have to fix something; not because he's not good at what he does, but because it means it's more elusive and the fixing is more complicated).

zorander6

08-02-2010, 02:54 PM

Featherfall is a bit wonky as well. If I cast on myself usually one other party member in the radius of the spell does not get it, if I focus on said person everyone gets it. Dunno if anyone else is seeing this or just me.

Honestly if there was a "please give us more info on bugs we know about area" I'd happily try to test bugs and report as much info as I could. Problem is I don't know what's considered a bug and what is WAI for the game sometimes. For example, Pale Masters can use a spell to reduce the impact of summoning skeletons, is this a bug, an exploit, or is it WAI?

Radiant servant's aura, about 85% of the time when I use it the ability fires correctly, the other 15% I have to target myself to get it to fire.

Tolero

08-02-2010, 02:59 PM

Seems to me a general re-work of ladders in general is in order because 'fixed' ladders seem to have a chance of triggering this 'bug' as well. I can't explain it very well but if you play long enough, you find that all ladders have a chance of triggering this 'bug' of being stuck and continuously repeating the same 'climb' animation over and over again.

I'll have to poke Keeper and see if there are any other types of situations that can cause the "sticky" ("looping climb" "broken ladder" "ladder rubber band" "infinite ladder climb" "dejavu ladder" everyone has a different description for it) situation. Any time I have it happen, it's on a ladder I haven't tried to climb before, and usually towards the bottom half rather than the top half of the ladder. Or on a ladder that I know to be broken but I'm not sure if Keeper's gotten a chance to correct. They're similar to "stuck spots" really.

Angelus_dead

08-02-2010, 02:59 PM

That doesn't surprise me. The dev's are not the bug database cullers. They deal in the here and now, and unless a bug becomes the "here and now" they're working on things that aren't yet in the game.
Whether or not there are non-developer staffers assigned to filter bug reports isn't the point.

The problem is that those bug reports should not have been closed, because the functionality was not correct. Either whoever closed that bug didn't check the design docs, or the design docs were erroneous or incomplete.

Riggs

08-02-2010, 03:01 PM

Bugs don't go to the trash can. They have to be read. By a person. Every time. Even the really vague ones where the entire report is "titan bug". -_-;

That is a straw man argument however - many long time players, skilled players, who cared about the game did not submit bugs with 2 words in it "Fix mobs!" It is not accurate to say that all bug reports are that useless and vague, and therefor thats why most things dont get fixed for 2 years at a time.

I know a lot of people USED to file reports, with details. I used to a few times as well even though I am lazy.

But filing reports, seeing nothing, no repsonse, nothing on the forums, nothing even on the known issues list even though you know 10 people filed a report on it, and then 9 months later a dev or someone from Turbine comes on the forum and says "Oh we didnt know about that, I will try to look into it - please submit bug reports"...is very frustrating.

Saying "Someone reads them" doesnt really mean anything. Someone also has to report to someone who can actually DO something about it, and also let players know it was received and is now known - which doesnt happen currently - so "Someone reads them and immediately deletes them" means exactly the same thing too - because we have no way to tell, and since there are old bugs still not on the list.....

And it happened for at least 3 years. Maybe someone is actually reading and logging them now...but not before. And you cant tell long time players that it was always working because I am sure everyone could come up with 10 different examples of exactly that "Oh we didnt know about this bug that 100 people have reported in the last 3 days alone, and/or have been reporting AND posting on the forum for over a year".

So yes, it would be really nice to have a partitioned list - known issues not requiring bug reports, known issues requiring more detail/bug reports, and if anything isnt on those two lists - then Turbine doesnt know about it so report it.

But if something gets reported - it better show up on the list before too long - or else people will give up again and not bother reporting anything because that means it went back to the circular filing cabinet of yore.

Folonius

08-02-2010, 03:05 PM

Whether or not there are non-developer staffers assigned to filter bug reports isn't the point.

The problem is that those bug reports should not have been closed, because the functionality was not correct. Either whoever closed that bug didn't check the design docs, or the design docs were erroneous or incomplete.

IMO, it makes no sense to keep around incomplete bug reports. But it sounds like Turbine needs to hire more QC personel to maintain and track bugs better.

*raises hand*
pick me pick me!

Angelus_dead

08-02-2010, 03:15 PM

So this is actually a good example of the difference between the bug reports we get and the ones we're looking for ^^
Ok, here's an example of a bug report I submitted a few months ago, which contributed to the impression that they don't get read.

1. An update changed the duration of Fire Shield, but the Web immunity portion stayed at the old duration. (For example, 3.5 minutes for Fire Shield but 3.0 minutes for web immunity)
2. I file a bug report saying that the duration of web immunity is incorrectly different from that of Fire Shield.
3. Nothing appears in the Known Issues page.
4. The bug isn't fixed in game.

So what am I to think happened to this bug report?
1. The HTTP server completely dropped the submission.
2. Someone closed it without looking.
3. Someone read it and decided the behavior was correct, closing it as NOTABUG.
4. The report is still waiting in a queue for someone to read.
5. The report was confirmed and is waiting for a developer to someday fix.

From out here I can't tell what happened, and my motivation to spend time and effort on further detailed bug reports is reduced.

Cahira

08-02-2010, 03:17 PM

I'll have to poke Keeper and see if there are any other types of situations that can cause the "sticky" ("looping climb" "broken ladder" "ladder rubber band" "infinite ladder climb" "dejavu ladder" everyone has a different description for it) situation. Any time I have it happen, it's on a ladder I haven't tried to climb before, and usually towards the bottom half rather than the top half of the ladder. Or on a ladder that I know to be broken but I'm not sure if Keeper's gotten a chance to correct. They're similar to "stuck spots" really.

The way I notice the bottom of the ladder bug the most often is if I attempt to jump on a ladder, but, due to poor timing on my part or discrepancy between the client and server, I end up ending my jump at the bottom of the ladder instead of partway up it.

That will put me in the constant loop of trying to climb and not being able to.

Hopefully, that helps.

Folonius

08-02-2010, 03:18 PM

That is a straw man argument however - many long time players, skilled players, who cared about the game did not submit bugs with 2 words in it "Fix mobs!" It is not accurate to say that all bug reports are that useless and vague, and therefor thats why most things dont get fixed for 2 years at a time.

It's not a strawman arguement. The Op's message wasn't misrepresented. He simply stated that more information, and not the two word bug reports, are needed. There are hundreds of ways for a bug to occur in complex code, and narrowing it down I would think is a hard task. Out of all the bug reports brought in in a day, I would be interested to know how many of those reports are similar to "Titan Bug" or other bug reports where there is just not enough information.

I know a lot of people USED to file reports, with details. I used to a few times as well even though I am lazy.

But filing reports, seeing nothing, no repsonse, nothing on the forums, nothing even on the known issues list even though you know 10 people filed a report on it, and then 9 months later a dev or someone from Turbine comes on the forum and says "Oh we didnt know about that, I will try to look into it - please submit bug reports"...is very frustrating.

I can't speak for past experiences, but just seeing the amount of times tolero has posted in this thread makes me think that something is being done about bugs. I still do agree with everyone else that they should make an online database, but looking at the mod response to this thread, I think we may get it at some point down the line.

because we have no way to tell, and since there are old bugs still not on the list.....

And I think if a database does ever come around, once enough bug reports have been filed, they can change the database info on that report to reflect that enough information has been gathered on that to properly fix it. That doesn't mean that it will be fixed based on priority (which I think that should be kept private) but just that they know the general idea on how to fix it.

And it happened for at least 3 years. Maybe someone is actually reading and logging them now...but not before.

That's your strawman. What they did in the past is irrelevant. What they are doing to make the game better is relevant.

So yes, it would be really nice to have a partitioned list - known issues not requiring bug reports, known issues requiring more detail/bug reports, and if anything isnt on those two lists - then Turbine doesnt know about it so report it.

But if something gets reported - it better show up on the list before too long - or else people will give up again and not bother reporting anything because that means it went back to the circular filing cabinet of yore.
I would go one step farther, if something is bugged repeatedly, and it is WAI, then put it in this database to let the players know that it is WAI.

IMO, there is alot of potential in a database.

knightgf

08-02-2010, 03:18 PM

Incidentally the particular report I'm talking about was from a long time ago and not applicable to the issue you're describing... so like I said.... "titan bug" could mean anything. :D

Could mean Clash of the Titans, or the Titan in Weapons Shipment, or in Inspired Quarter, it goes on and on and on...imagine if they wrote "Kobold bug" lol that'd be quite a problem to tackle...

On a serious note though, I must applaud the Turbine team for taking their work time off to chat with us and provide several clarifications to bug reports and everything else. Well done!

zorander6

08-02-2010, 03:19 PM

IMO, it makes no sense to keep around incomplete bug reports. But it sounds like Turbine needs to hire more QC personel to maintain and track bugs better.

*raises hand*
pick me pick me!

Unfortunately the tickets that are not detailed at all "fix bug" doesn't help anyone and since bug reports aren't interactive......

Sure there are people who will fill out detailed reports, but most people have too low a wisdom score to know that IT people are not mind readers.

However that said most people who are willing to fill out detailed reports also expect to see something, some kind of progress, some report on whether it's even in the queue for consideration. Otherwise they feel their time is wasted and won't bother with it any longer. MadFloyd posting in the thread about the issue with guild renown is the type of thing we want to see. Even if it's a separate area for bug reports that show that Phax is working on issue X and issue Y is not currently under review. Make it clear what info you need. I can run wireshark and other tools if needed and will help but I'm not going to do so unless asked.

smatt

08-02-2010, 03:22 PM

So something like a "Looking For More" list? I could poke the QA peeps and see if they'd be interested in something like this, it could be very useful (and informative for players and staff ^^). If not as a static link at least as maybe a periodic feature at the House o' Bugs.

Yes, something like that... In a perfect world it would have soem form of acknowledgemnt that bug reports have been received on an issue, but more information is needed to help track down how to recreate it. This might go a long way in helping QA, and the Dev team themsevles in figuring out how to deal with a specific bug. It would also in concert lead to the perception byut the playerbase that bugs are being looked into.. Win Win :D

Missing_Minds

08-02-2010, 03:23 PM

And yet, almost every ladder in the game is still borked and mandates that you must jump on it to climb.... go figure.

Because client/server got out of sync and trying to climb a ladder doesn't work. The server is assuming the player is on the ground, the client attempt to go up the ladder over and over and over from a start point that the server doesn't agree with.

The issue is compounded by client server issues, not Keeper's ladders.

AyumiAmakusa

08-02-2010, 03:26 PM

Because client/server got out of sync and trying to climb a ladder doesn't work. The server is assuming the player is on the ground, the client attempt to go up the ladder over and over and over from a start point that the server doesn't agree with.

The issue is compounded by client server issues, not Keeper's ladders.

Now that makes sense!!

Riggs

08-02-2010, 03:34 PM

It's not a strawman arguement. The Op's message wasn't misrepresented. He simply stated that more information, and not the two word bug reports, are needed. .....

I can't speak for past experiences, but just seeing the amount of times tolero has posted in this thread makes me think that something is being done about bugs. I still do agree with everyone else that they should make an online database, but looking at the mod response to this thread, I think we may get it at some point down the line.

And I think if a database does ever come around, once enough bug reports have been filed, they can change the database info on that report to reflect that enough information has been gathered on that to properly fix it. That doesn't mean that it will be fixed based on priority (which I think that should be kept private) but just that they know the general idea on how to fix it.

That's your strawman. What they did in the past is irrelevant. What they are doing to make the game better is relevant.

You're new here. Enjoy the game.

Dont expect to get very far criticizing player repsonses to what has gone on for 4 years when you dont know what actually happened, and how things got to where it is today. I point to the last line I bolded that invalidates any argument you try to make at this point. (Oh, and Tolero is not a He fyi)

AZgreentea

08-02-2010, 03:34 PM

Instead you can actually be more verbose and write a description just like what you wrote in your post:
I blame the current generation of people who seem to think that a 5-10 page essay is a novel, instead of an effective way to prove your point with facts and details.

That being said, the little tiny window you get with the bug reports means I usually have to write it in a word editor (with a spell checker) and then paste it into the report. the smallness encourages terse replies, since it implies a shorter response is desired. It would be nice if the box were bigger (or expandable) and had its own spell checker (or if more people use Firefox, but that is a different issue).

Missing_Minds

08-02-2010, 03:34 PM

So (and Keeper can correct me on this if I'm wrong) my general understanding of the way ladders work is that they can get bustificated in two ways:
A) If they're too far in the ground
B) If many moons ago in DDO's early life, the ladder was made using multiple ladder chunks.

One requires Keeper to scoot the ladder out of the ground (or something like that), another requires her to yank the "pieces" out and put in a nice whole ladder. If you're jumping onto the ladder and it's borking, it's like problem B ... usually. I'm sure I said the above wrong :P Keeper can spank me if I'm giving erroneous ladder anatomy.

C) To close to something else, say a rock or circular sewer walls.

The rock example is out in the orchard. I want to say the top cave where the rare mummy can spawn. (I think that one got fixed)

Or sewers in The Snitch. The ladders are too close to the end of the tunnel so trying to climb up them from the bottom is near impossible. It effects any ladder who's base is in a sewer tunnel in that quest. That is a LOT of ladders. No I've not bug reported them just due to the shere amount of them because you want one report per ladder.

GoldyGopher

08-02-2010, 03:36 PM

Incorrect. I was climbing all over ladders this weekend with no issue. The only funky ladder I found is one in the public space in House D. And... like a bad person... I didn't /loc it and will now have to go back and find it and /loc it for Keeper >>

I stopped bug reporting ladders because well after listing a couple hundred it got well idiotic and senseless. Today there are a least several dozen ladders that still have the hitch problem. From original content all the way to the most current content. (Thinking if there are any latters in the Red Fens.)

AyumiAmakusa

08-02-2010, 03:37 PM

C) To close to something else, say a rock or circular sewer walls.

The rock example is out in the orchard. I want to say the top cave where the rare mummy can spawn. (I think that one got fixed)

Or sewers in The Snitch. The ladders are too close to the end of the tunnel so trying to climb up them from the bottom is near impossible. It effects any ladder who's base is in a sewer tunnel in that quest. That is a LOT of ladders. No I've not bug reported them just due to the shere amount of them because you want one report per ladder.

Boy I'd really hate it if the ladder bug happened in 'Prove Your Worth' right when you're almost at the top.

Folonius

08-02-2010, 03:38 PM

You're new here. Enjoy the game.

Dont expect to get very far criticizing player repsonses to what has gone on for 4 years when you dont know what actually happened, and how things got to where it is today. I point to the last line I bolded that invalidates any argument you try to make at this point.

Hi Welcome

You are trying to validate a strawman. If you can't see the strawman after I pointed it out, there's no point in trying to point it out again or trying to continue a conversation with you.

Edit: And Tolero was replying to the Op in which I was referring to in that she didn't misrepresent it. Please try to keep up.

jkm

08-02-2010, 03:38 PM

Incorrect. I was climbing all over ladders this weekend with no issue. The only funky ladder I found is one in the public space in House D. And... like a bad person... I didn't /loc it and will now have to go back and find it and /loc it for Keeper >>

the problem with statements like this are that there are 2 distinct different bugs with ladders.

the first bug was getting stuck on ladders. this was caused by a misalignment in the ladders after they moved up to DX9. keeper had to go back through every ladder and realign them. these bugs have been pretty much eradicated from the game.

the second bug is a little trickier and affects every ladder in the game. this is the bug that causes you to rubber band back to the bottom of the ladder every time you start climbing it. the only way to fix it is to step off the ladder and start over.

theory 1 - your client recognizes that you are on a ladder but the server does not. when the new climb coordinates are sent to the server, it rejects them as "invalid" because you can't walk up a vertical surface so it starts you back on the ground. this is repeated until you step off the ladder and get back onto it.

reasoning - this bug only occurs when you try to get on a ladder by running into it (your feet are on the ground). if you jump onto the ladder you never see this bug.

theory 2 - you are caught in an out of synch loop with the server. basically, the client is sending an update for rung 3 when the server thinks you are on 1. the server sends back a reset message. rinse repeat.

reasoning - very dependant on lagged messaging.

Tolero

08-02-2010, 03:39 PM

C) To close to something else, say a rock or circular sewer walls.

Yeah I used the word "ground" a little freely. "physics" is the proper word, because it can be more than made of ground. It can be made of rocks, trees, walls, NPCs, invisible stuff that you don't even know is there, etc.

Missing_Minds

08-02-2010, 03:42 PM

Yeah I used the word "ground" a little freely. "physics" is the proper word, because it can be more than made of ground. It can be made of rocks, trees, walls, NPCs, invisible stuff that you don't even know is there, etc.

The freaking solid kobolds in STK.... RGH...

Trillea

08-02-2010, 03:43 PM

the problem with statements like this are that there are 2 distinct different bugs with ladders.

the first bug was getting stuck on ladders. this was caused by a misalignment in the ladders after they moved up to DX9. keeper had to go back through every ladder and realign them. these bugs have been pretty much eradicated from the game.

the second bug is a little trickier and affects every ladder in the game. this is the bug that causes you to rubber band back to the bottom of the ladder every time you start climbing it. the only way to fix it is to step off the ladder and start over.

theory 1 - your client recognizes that you are on a ladder but the server does not. when the new climb coordinates are sent to the server, it rejects them as "invalid" because you can't walk up a vertical surface so it starts you back on the ground. this is repeated until you step off the ladder and get back onto it.

reasoning - this bug only occurs when you try to get on a ladder by running into it (your feet are on the ground). if you jump onto the ladder you never see this bug.

theory 2 - you are caught in an out of synch loop with the server. basically, the client is sending an update for rung 3 when the server thinks you are on 1. the server sends back a reset message. rinse repeat.

reasoning - very dependant on lagged messaging.

This seems to mirror what I see for most ladder bugs.

Zenako

08-02-2010, 03:47 PM

You know Tolero, keep this up and they are gonna add another button to the line up top. Dev Tracker, Service Tracker, Tolero Tracker....:D:eek: cranking on the post count today....;)

Hendrik

08-02-2010, 03:48 PM

Folonius

08-02-2010, 04:06 PM

Last edited by Riggs; 08-02-2010 at 03:39 PM.

You done yet, or you still stealth editing? Honestly, how do people take you seriously if you keep changing your post.

DagazUlf

08-02-2010, 04:36 PM

Incorrect. I was climbing all over ladders this weekend with no issue. The only funky ladder I found is one in the public space in House D. And... like a bad person... I didn't /loc it and will now have to go back and find it and /loc it for Keeper >>

Wrong! :D

Did you just walk up to all of these ladders and begin to climb without just hitching up and down over and over until you backed off and jumped on instead? If so, I salute you.

I have an entire guild full of people that suffer from being mangled by the many evil mimic ladders throughout Stormreach that insist you not touch that first bottom rung, but instead jump on to them.

Hmmmm... if you really don't have this issue, go try any of the gnoll ladders out in the SE part of the Vale. If they are working correctly, maybe it's an issue of solo vs. party play. Try it with a few people in the party. :)

Asketes

08-02-2010, 04:41 PM

Lookey here Tolero. I find this talk flattering and all, but do you think we could focus more on the game and less emoting around?

:D:D:D

.. I could poke........

......I'll have to poke..........

....can spank me.....

.......I'll have to poke .......

DagazUlf

08-02-2010, 04:44 PM

I'll have to poke Keeper and see if there are any other types of situations that can cause the "sticky" ("looping climb" "broken ladder" "ladder rubber band" "infinite ladder climb" "dejavu ladder" everyone has a different description for it) situation. Any time I have it happen, it's on a ladder I haven't tried to climb before, and usually towards the bottom half rather than the top half of the ladder. Or on a ladder that I know to be broken but I'm not sure if Keeper's gotten a chance to correct. They're similar to "stuck spots" really.

Honestly, I quit reporting ladder bugs long ago because I'd see the release notes that said something like "fixed many ladders", and I'd test those specific ladders I had submitted and they were still borked along with just about all the others. So, I gave up after a couple times. For me, it still seems like almost every ladder in Stormreach is sketchy and uses some kind of tech that gets it out-of-sync with my client or something. Been that way since the beginning.

DagazUlf

08-02-2010, 04:45 PM

Oh, and Keeper seemed so happy about "fixing" the ladders, I just couldn't bring myself to be the dark cloud on her sunny day. :D

Junts

08-02-2010, 04:48 PM

I'll have to poke Keeper and see if there are any other types of situations that can cause the "sticky" ("looping climb" "broken ladder" "ladder rubber band" "infinite ladder climb" "dejavu ladder" everyone has a different description for it) situation. Any time I have it happen, it's on a ladder I haven't tried to climb before, and usually towards the bottom half rather than the top half of the ladder. Or on a ladder that I know to be broken but I'm not sure if Keeper's gotten a chance to correct. They're similar to "stuck spots" really.

Jumping onto and getting 'ladder stuck' to me seems like a lag issue, where the game loses track of where i hit the ladder and bumps me to the bottom of it continually.

This happens in a wide range of ladders old and new, and seems distinct from the old 'ladder bug' that people always complained about, and even happens with ladders reported many times as fixed.

the most obnoxious is the ladder you have to jump onto on the dagger side of von2, since if you bug when you hit it you have to release the ladder and fall to the quori and come back past the wind bridges.

Blackbird

08-02-2010, 04:52 PM

That's your strawman. What they did in the past is irrelevant. What they are doing to make the game better is relevant.

That isn't a straw man. That is past experience with bug reporting. Turbine says the are using the same process now that they were using then, where all reports are read. Both in the past and now, many reports can go for months or years with no response from Turbine, only to have someone hear about it on the forums for the first time. Basing current expectations on past experiences when nothing in the process has changed is hardly an unreasonable position.

Freeman on Blackbird's Ipad

BoBo2020

08-02-2010, 05:03 PM

First - Hello.

I've been lurking for months but this is my first post so someone please "Hi, Welcome" me and get it over with.

...

Thank you!

Ok, so I wanted to follow up on this part of Tolero's quote regarding the missing chest on Hard and Elite ToD:

...I know this seems 'lengthy' but in some cases something may very well be WAI, and reports like this help from a "quality of life" stand point. Maybe the intent was for it to work the way it is? But if we're getting bug reports from people who are confused, it gives the quest folks leverage to change it. Not always, but it's added ammunition. :)

If I read this correctly, then it is possible (as several of us have discussed on Sarlona) that there is something undiscovered in ToD.

I think it is interesting that most of the Amrath quests have alternate endings or supplemental optional objectives after the main quest concludes.

Is there a chance that ToD is not meant to be such a linear raid and the missing chests are meant to be a clue instead of a bug?

Not sure why my signature isn't working - but I am Mamatse on Sarlona.

Strakeln

08-02-2010, 05:13 PM

/snort at this entire thread

Y'all can talk about how to better report bugs until you're blue in the face... nothing will come of it until Turbine starts paying attention and responding to them.

Go look up the path of the Supreme Cleave bug, Tolero, if you want to find some real issues. That bug was reported dozens if not hundreds of times, as early as 2 months before EU release and continuing post-EU release. MadFloyd first heard about it a month or so after EU, on the forums. And even then, it took several months to get it working properly.

Although the fact that it made it to live speaks to a much better problem: QA. I have yet to find another QA department that thinks not testing functionality on a new feature is perfectly acceptable. C'mon... really? No one thought to test out that new feature?

moorewr

08-02-2010, 05:17 PM

Ok, here's an example of a bug report I submitted a few months ago, which contributed to the impression that they don't get read.

1. An update changed the duration of Fire Shield, but the Web immunity portion stayed at the old duration. (For example, 3.5 minutes for Fire Shield but 3.0 minutes for web immunity)
2. I file a bug report saying that the duration of web immunity is incorrectly different from that of Fire Shield.
3. Nothing appears in the Known Issues page.
4. The bug isn't fixed in game.

So what am I to think happened to this bug report?
1. The HTTP server completely dropped the submission.
2. Someone closed it without looking.
3. Someone read it and decided the behavior was correct, closing it as NOTABUG.
4. The report is still waiting in a queue for someone to read.
5. The report was confirmed and is waiting for a developer to someday fix.

From out here I can't tell what happened, and my motivation to spend time and effort on further detailed bug reports is reduced.

This is my experience with bugs and Turbine (and most any software project) to a T.

Turbine ought to provide a history to the submitter - merge, wontfix, notabug, assigned etc etc. and a bug you can visit on the web. They have it internally, after all.

Pwesiela

08-02-2010, 05:32 PM

First - Hello.

I've been lurking for months but this is my first post so someone please "Hi, Welcome" me and get it over with.

Wrong

Hi Welcome

Right

And you did ask for it! :D

Thank you!

You're welcome.

Ok, so I wanted to follow up on this part of Tolero's quote regarding the missing chest on Hard and Elite ToD:

If I read this correctly, then it is possible (as several of us have discussed on Sarlona) that there is something undiscovered in ToD.

I think it is interesting that most of the Amrath quests have alternate endings or supplemental optional objectives after the main quest concludes.

Is there a chance that ToD is not meant to be such a linear raid and the missing chests are meant to be a clue instead of a bug?

Not sure why my signature isn't working - but I am Mamatse on Sarlona.

Just so you know, nothing really deserving the Hi Welcome treatment here. But like I said, you asked and I deliver!

Folonius

08-02-2010, 05:41 PM

That isn't a straw man. That is past experience with bug reporting. Turbine says the are using the same process now that they were using then, where all reports are read. Both in the past and now, many reports can go for months or years with no response from Turbine, only to have someone hear about it on the forums for the first time. Basing current expectations on past experiences when nothing in the process has changed is hardly an unreasonable position.

I haven't really seen reports not being responded to. They do send out an email acknowledging the bug reports, but as for them not responding to bug reports in the present I don't see it. I admit it can be much better, but it's nice to have some response from Tolero on these issues.

The reason I say past experience is a strawman is because while past experiences may have been bad in regards to bug reporting, that's not what we are really talking about. We are talking about bug reporting, or at least the Op is, in the relative present, and not last year, or even the begginning of this year, but post U5. That's what I've been getting out of most of this convo. I'm not going to sit here and call someone in the Turbine team a liar when I have no proof in backing it up in regards to present bug reporting techniques.

sephiroth1084

08-02-2010, 05:44 PM

AyumiAmakusa

08-02-2010, 05:45 PM

Hendrik

08-02-2010, 05:47 PM

Hmm, I must be doing something wrong cause I get replies to my reports....

I even get PM's/email.

JUST got this back from a bug I submitted this morning;

"Thank you for submitting the bug titled 'GRAPHICS/ANIMATION: Fear Spell. Your bug has been sent to our Quality Assurance team to be reviewed.

We are not able to provide status updates or feedback on individual bugs, however, our QA team may contact you using the private messaging system of the DDO forums or by email if further information is needed about the bug."

AyumiAmakusa

08-02-2010, 05:49 PM

We are not able to provide status updates or feedback on individual bugs, however, our QA team may contact you using the private messaging system of the DDO forums or by email if further information is needed about the bug."

Computer generated auto-reply email is not counted. Besides, I never got an email asking for further bug information.

Cahira

08-02-2010, 05:56 PM

Computer generated auto-reply email is not counted. Besides, I never got an email asking for further bug information.

I've not gotten an email asking for more info...however I have gotten a PM on the forums to help me out with a bug I had submitted.

cathy_n QA sent me a PM about a bug that was affecting default keymapping and told me how to fix it, that it was a known bug, and that she didn't know when it would be fixed.

Granted, that was in March of 2007...but it did give me some amount of confidence that they read what we submit. :)

Pwesiela

08-02-2010, 05:59 PM

To be fair, major game-breaking bugs that were reported were promptly fixed. An example would be the spell-cooldown bug. I sent in three separate reports at three different times (each for 3 different cases) regarding that cooldown bug. One was that it affected spells, one was that it affected spell-like abilities and item clickies and the last was how to effectively reproduce that effect.

As we can see, it was promptly fixed. I do agree however that some bugs are so minor and easily fixed that there is little reason to leave it unfixed for years (such as spell descriptions, item descriptions and descriptions in general).

While this was a bug, it was a game breaker bug. It was also a bug that benefited the players.

Now lets talk about those annoying little bugs that, mod after mod, update after update, persist and aggrevate the players. You know, the ones that have been around since launch and still exist, or the newer ones that didn't get the MUST HOTFIX NOW treatment. Like chests, spells, etc.

Rumbaar

08-02-2010, 06:05 PM

Don't know, "titan bug" could mean anything. That literally was the entire bug report.

Incidentally the particular report I'm talking about was from a long time ago and not applicable to the issue you're describing... so like I said.... "titan bug" could mean anything. :DIf the entire bug report was 'titan bug', then how did you find out what it was and now know it's not applicable to the 'known' bugging out of the Titan in titans run [which has been around even before IQ was released to public]?

So something like a "Looking For More" list? I could poke the QA peeps and see if they'd be interested in something like this, it could be very useful (and informative for players and staff ^^). If not as a static link at least as maybe a periodic feature at the House o' Bugs.I'm sure that is all we are asking for. A definitive KNOWN issues list. Of those things that when the 5th thread on the subject in a week people can point them to it and say yes it's know, be sure to read that thread often to avoid any future issues.

I see all this talk of ladders, which is fine and all. But can we talk about jumping and collision detection? Are their some areas Coalescence Chamber, Giants Vault, etc where you seem to hit 'invisible' overhanging areas that make you bounce off the edge of the wall and hence to the ground? Is that too a physics issue similar to some ladder issue and thus bug reportable?

Blackbird

08-02-2010, 06:06 PM

I haven't really seen reports not being responded to. They do send out an email acknowledging the bug reports, but as for them not responding to bug reports in the present I don't see it. I admit it can be much better, but it's nice to have some response from Tolero on these issues.

The reason I say past experience is a strawman is because while past experiences may have been bad in regards to bug reporting, that's not what we are really talking about. We are talking about bug reporting, or at least the Op is, in the relative present, and not last year, or even the begginning of this year, but post U5. That's what I've been getting out of most of this convo. I'm not going to sit here and call someone in the Turbine team a liar when I have no proof in backing it up in regards to present bug reporting techniques.

If you want to see examples of bug reports not being responded to, there are numerous ones in current threads on the forums. If you want to restrict you argument to only the past two weeks or so, then it is pointless to continue. I'm discussing bugs that have been around for months or longer with no response, and you say only the relative present matters. That seems more like an "Ignore it and it will go away" mentality that hasn't worked in the past.

I don't think anyone has called Tolero a liar. That doesn't mean mean the bug reporting process is perfect. There have been legitimate problems with it in the past, and those were fixed. The biggest issue is the lack of feedback on current bugs, and Tolero is trying to address that. Regardless, I'll keep working on getting old bugs acknowledged and fixed. I've had to do it in the past, and I don't mind doing it again.

theb

08-02-2010, 06:34 PM

They do send out an email acknowledging the bug reports, but as for them not responding to bug reports in the present I don't see it...The reason I say past experience is a strawman is because while past experiences may have been bad in regards to bug reporting, that's not what we are really talking about. We are talking about bug reporting, or at least the Op is, in the relative present, and not last year, or even the begginning of this year, but post U5.

So, a few weeks is a reasonable time frame to allow for feedback from reported bugs, and expecting it any faster is unreasonable. We can't conclude anything bad about the bug reporting process from bugs reported in the past few weeks that have received no response. Anything happening more than a few weeks ago is the distant past and irrelevant. It's always possible that the system changed within the past few weeks to a functional one such that Turbine would not yet have had time to communicate with us about the bugs we recently reported. It's impossible to prove this isn't the case, even with Tolero saying that nothing has changed.

I'm beginning to see how this works.

If I'm ever on trial for anything I want you on my jury!

redoubt

08-02-2010, 06:54 PM

Yup that's a good description. This is one we've gotten good reports on last I knew (though how it got in that state is another story, and that can determine how/when it gets fixed. It kinda comes down to whether Genasi or Phax have to fix it... bad things happen if Phax has to fix it :( and you know I'm just going to preemptively say that you never ever want Phax to have to fix something; not because he's not good at what he does, but because it means it's more elusive and the fixing is more complicated).

This was about rage, prayer and recitation.

I just went back an reread the release notes and was unable to locate info on this bug. Why?

You say you have good info on the bug. That makes it sound like you don't need more reports on it, or do you?

How often do you update the KI list? We see you talk about stuff sometimes, but then there is no info on it in the KI list.

Could you, even if you need more info on a bug, list it and then say you need more info? We would at least know its not WAI. After we talk about stuff on the forums if you are silent we sometimes, even though it angers us greatly, assume its WAI and that you just don't like your players and do these things to f with us.

Also you could add a bit of info on how long or hard you think the fix might be. Sure I have a computer science degree, but I've not used it in 16 years and never in game design, so I readily admit I have no real idea how hard it is to fix this stuff. What I do know is that if I adjust widget A and widget B breaks I immediatly go back and put widget A where it started. Stuff breaks in game but you don't go back and unbreak it. I'm sure you have a technical reason for it. So please share. Even if we don't all understand it at least we will know you're aware and thinking about it.

For example, these spells broke with the patch... why not undo the patch? The patch didn't fix the airships anyway, so roll it back. It seems easy to me. So please talk to us about these issues so we don't come to the wrong conclusions.

Thank you.

Angelus_dead

08-02-2010, 06:54 PM

Although the fact that it made it to live speaks to a much better problem: QA. I have yet to find another QA department that thinks not testing functionality on a new feature is perfectly acceptable. C'mon... really? No one thought to test out that new feature?
That's in contradiction to the rest of your post.

You just got done describing how an obvious bug can be well known for an excessively long time without being fixed; so then how can you accuse QA personnel of not detecting it? You have no way to know whether they didn't notice it, or the devs simply didn't fix it.

Really, minimal existence of a feature is something the programmer should've handled himself.

Angelus_dead

08-02-2010, 06:56 PM

They do send out an email acknowledging the bug reports
Since when does Turbine send an email acknowledging bug reports?

sephiroth1084

08-02-2010, 06:59 PM

Since when does Turbine send an email acknowledging bug reports?
I've started getting them kind of recently (as of maybe 3 or 4 months ago?) just confirming that they've received the report I have submitted. I assume they're an automated step in the direction of partially (and easily) placating all of us who ***** a lot about there being a lack of communication from Turbine on stuff like this.

Cahira

08-02-2010, 07:05 PM

Since when does Turbine send an email acknowledging bug reports?

The oldest one that I have in my email is from October 29 of last year, and it was about thrown weapons causing ammo to need to be re-equipped when switching back to a bow or crossbow.

parvo

08-02-2010, 08:33 PM

parvo

08-02-2010, 08:40 PM

Incorrect. I was climbing all over ladders this weekend with no issue. The only funky ladder I found is one in the public space in House D. And... like a bad person... I didn't /loc it and will now have to go back and find it and /loc it for Keeper >>

While not every ladder requires the player to jump unto to start, many still do. It requires additional dexterity to sneak unto many ladders. You have to go into sneak mode in mid-air.

Beherit_Baphomar

08-02-2010, 08:45 PM

Incorrect. I was climbing all over ladders this weekend with no issue. The only funky ladder I found is one in the public space in House D. And... like a bad person... I didn't /loc it and will now have to go back and find it and /loc it for Keeper >>

The ladder isnt the problem. There's nothing wrong with the ladders. Its climbing up the ladder thats the problem.

Do we really, honestly need to continually talk about this before someone say's "Hey, maybe there is a problem we're not seeing"?

ViolentEnd

08-02-2010, 08:46 PM

Can we please get back on topic and get a confirmation that the next raid boss will indeed be a TITANIC BUG ?

Folonius

08-02-2010, 09:31 PM

So, a few weeks is a reasonable time frame to allow for feedback from reported bugs, and expecting it any faster is unreasonable.

No. They say in the reply that they don't reply any further to bug submissiosn.

We can't conclude anything bad about the bug reporting process from bugs reported in the past few weeks that have received no response.

We hear back about these bugs in updates on the forums. If a bug gets fixed that you personally bugged, assume your bug report had something to do with it. Masters Touch was bugged (at least I'm pretty sure that was the culprit). Every time I cast it, all the other buffs I had on me would stay after I zoned out of the quest, and into new quests. I don't think I acutally had the effect still because when I zoned out and still had blur ticking down, I could cast blur again, and would have two icons in the upper right ticking down. Add every other buff a bard could do, and at times I had a line of useless buffs going across the top.

I bugged it, and after U5 hit, it was fixed.

Now I'm not saying the current system is flawless. I do believe adding a database will create more constructive bug reports, but I don't fault Turbine for the dummies who send useless bug reports. It's quite possible that the person hitting the delete key on the useless reports get so used to hitting delete, it's quite possible that they accidentally delete reports that can be used as well, so creating a system with more usefull bug reports can also stem off complacency.

Folonius

08-02-2010, 09:35 PM

Since when does Turbine send an email acknowledging bug reports?

Hmm, I must be doing something wrong cause I get replies to my reports....

I even get PM's/email.

JUST got this back from a bug I submitted this morning;

"Thank you for submitting the bug titled 'GRAPHICS/ANIMATION: Fear Spell. Your bug has been sent to our Quality Assurance team to be reviewed.

We are not able to provide status updates or feedback on individual bugs, however, our QA team may contact you using the private messaging system of the DDO forums or by email if further information is needed about the bug."

Stop making sense hendrick, I'm still on timer from giving you +rep from previous posts. ;)

Freeman

08-02-2010, 10:01 PM

No. They say in the reply that they don't reply any further to bug submissiosn.

No one is asking for a personal reply to a bug report, only a general announcement of some kind when Turbine becomes aware of a bug.

We hear back about these bugs in updates on the forums.

Again, that's what we are asking for. The problem is that many bugs never get mentioned on the forums, except by other players. I've asked on the forums several times about whether they are aware of the problems with Solid Fog and Acid Fog, but there's no way to tell if they are or not. An official response that a bug is known would be sufficient. A long time ago, we got a Weekly Development Activities post from the Devs that listed many bugs that were being worked. Once they stopped doing that(For reasons that I understand), we had no other resource to turn to.

If a bug gets fixed that you personally bugged, assume your bug report had something to do with it. Masters Touch was bugged (at least I'm pretty sure that was the culprit). Every time I cast it, all the other buffs I had on me would stay after I zoned out of the quest, and into new quests. I don't think I acutally had the effect still because when I zoned out and still had blur ticking down, I could cast blur again, and would have two icons in the upper right ticking down. Add every other buff a bard could do, and at times I had a line of useless buffs going across the top.

I bugged it, and after U5 hit, it was fixed.

No, it wasn't. They completely changed the spell so that the bug no longer occurs. Before, it was caused by Master's Touch running out while other buffs were still active.(Or was it the other way around? I don't remember exactly, since its been a few months since I tested it) Although you still had the timer and animation, the effect of the buff would be gone. This is how people had permanent Hold spell rings on them until they logged out. Perhaps if they had listed this bug somewhere, you could have read about it and known for certain that the buffs weren't actually applying. Again, this is the type of information that we are asking for from Turbine.

Now I'm not saying the current system is flawless. I do believe adding a database will create more constructive bug reports, but I don't fault Turbine for the dummies who send useless bug reports. It's quite possible that the person hitting the delete key on the useless reports get so used to hitting delete, it's quite possible that they accidentally delete reports that can be used as well, so creating a system with more usefull bug reports can also stem off complacency.

Again, the number of useless bug reports is not the issue to the players. What we would like to see are the confirmed bugs, so that we can know that they are aware of the problem. The more information we could get, the better, but a simple line item stating the problem would at least give us some assurance that our reports have been received. Complete silence only leads to frustration and eventually giving up on the whole process, and that's something that Turbine should not want the players to do.

Folonius

08-02-2010, 11:07 PM

Again, the number of useless bug reports is not the issue to the players. What we would like to see are the confirmed bugs, so that we can know that they are aware of the problem. The more information we could get, the better, but a simple line item stating the problem would at least give us some assurance that our reports have been received. Complete silence only leads to frustration and eventually giving up on the whole process, and that's something that Turbine should not want the players to do.

I can agree with this. I was trying to see things the way they do, but I would /sign this request. IMO it would help both sides.

parvo

08-03-2010, 12:03 AM

...We are not able to provide status updates or feedback on individual bugs, however, our QA team may contact you using the private messaging system of the DDO forums or by email if further information is needed about the bug."

Our QA team? This is where we get crossed up Hendrik. I like DDO and Turbine but let's be honest, they don't test much. They continously launch beta grade material. I had the same argument with someone online the other day that was defending how "complicated" it is to test stuff. So....dude...like it's sooo complicated to walk over to the new guild vendor and buy any spell component and try casting a spell from it? Give me a break. Some of this stuff is basic. Don't even get me started on ladders. A properly equiped tester could walk up to all the ladders and test them all in a few hours, yet we're asked to collectively spend much more time filling out bug reports.

Again, Turb should show some respect to the players and give us a comprehensive known issues list with items marked as either:
-- Need more info
-- Don't need more info, priority
-- Don't need more info, on the list

bobbryan2

08-03-2010, 02:55 AM

Incorrect. I was climbing all over ladders this weekend with no issue. The only funky ladder I found is one in the public space in House D. And... like a bad person... I didn't /loc it and will now have to go back and find it and /loc it for Keeper >>

The bug happens to me on nearly every ladder in the game. It's not 100%.. and it's not reproducable, but I've long given up on it being a 'specific' ladder problem. It usually affects me a few times a week... and a few times a week over a period of 4 years starts adding up to a headache.

It's definitely not two short ladders being put together, because most of the problems I have with ladders occurs right at the base. Something's funky about where the ladder and ground meet.

Auran82

08-03-2010, 03:31 AM

Our QA team? This is where we get crossed up Hendrik. I like DDO and Turbine but let's be honest, they don't test much. They continously launch beta grade material. I had the same argument with someone online the other day that was defending how "complicated" it is to test stuff. So....dude...like it's sooo complicated to walk over to the new guild vendor and buy any spell component and try casting a spell from it? Give me a break. Some of this stuff is basic. Don't even get me started on ladders. A properly equiped tester could walk up to all the ladders and test them all in a few hours, yet we're asked to collectively spend much more time filling out bug reports.

Again, Turb should show some respect to the players and give us a comprehensive known issues list with items marked as either:
-- Need more info
-- Don't need more info, priority
-- Don't need more info, on the list

I agree 100%, if you think testing is too hard, then testing is not for you. They have people employed at Turbine (well I sure hope they do) whos sole job is to test for bugs. New feature in the next internal build? Better come up with a couple of dozen cases where that could potentially break things, from the basic stuff you 100% think will not be effected down to the really obscure things others might not think of. Then you go back through testing on that and other effected systems and see if the change broke anything else that was previously fixed.

Honestly, we NEED some kind of database like Parvo suggested, if you come accross something weird in the game, you should be able to look quickly through this database to see if its known or not, and whether they need more info.

Hell, I'm sure if we had something like this, there would be people who would look through the 'needs more info' list and try to recreate the bug so they can put through reports, some people just enjoy doing that kind of thing when they are bored.

VonBek

08-03-2010, 08:00 AM

I'll have to poke Keeper and see if there are any other types of situations that can cause the "sticky" ("looping climb" "broken ladder" "ladder rubber band" "infinite ladder climb" "dejavu ladder" everyone has a different description for it) situation. Any time I have it happen, it's on a ladder I haven't tried to climb before, and usually towards the bottom half rather than the top half of the ladder. Or on a ladder that I know to be broken but I'm not sure if Keeper's gotten a chance to correct. They're similar to "stuck spots" really.

Attempting to sneak onto a ladder has caused some frustration (at least for me). Perhaps the problem lies in the approach? Having to break stealth to climb a ladder seems out of place, unless the lowest rung has enough distance from the "ground" to make it an obvious design point.

Hendrik

08-03-2010, 09:38 AM

Since when does Turbine send an email acknowledging bug reports?

Since launch.

Send one in and you will see for yourself.

:rolleyes:

Hendrik

08-03-2010, 09:54 AM

Our QA team? This is where we get crossed up Hendrik. I like DDO and Turbine but let's be honest, they don't test much. They continously launch beta grade material. I had the same argument with someone online the other day that was defending how "complicated" it is to test stuff. So....dude...like it's sooo complicated to walk over to the new guild vendor and buy any spell component and try casting a spell from it? Give me a break. Some of this stuff is basic. Don't even get me started on ladders. A properly equiped tester could walk up to all the ladders and test them all in a few hours, yet we're asked to collectively spend much more time filling out bug reports.

Again, Turb should show some respect to the players and give us a comprehensive known issues list with items marked as either:
-- Need more info
-- Don't need more info, priority
-- Don't need more info, on the list

Thank you Parvo for the reply!

I am not trying to make excuses for QA - we ALL want a better product, even QA. Even "I" want more feedback on these bugs.

One thing about QA we ALL should keep in mind;

They have only X amount of people working QA. Those minds can only think of so many things to test/break during the development cycle. With our development cycle being much faster now, I think we have to accept that bugs WILL make it Live. Faster content = more bugs. Slower content = less bugs. Personally I can deal with more bugs for faster content, I NEVER want to go a year without content again.

Live has exponentially more people to find/encounter these bugs. Of course we are going to find more vs QA. I cannot fault QA for that - they just don't have the numbers vs Live. Sure, adding more people would be great and maybe we will once this deal with WB is done.

One thing we, the Community, might try to do is open a dialogue with QA and see if one of 'us' can work directly with them to have an updated Known Issues list. Maybe if we can work in conjunction with QA for the betterment of the Community as a whole we can help alleviate some of the frustration we ALL have with these bugs....

+1 Parvo for fostering a great discussion, TYVM!!!

/respect

Angelus_dead

08-03-2010, 10:25 AM

Since launch.
That's certainly not true.

Send one in and you will see for yourself.
Why would you write that?

Hendrik

08-03-2010, 10:33 AM

That's certainly not true.

Why would you write that?

If have not periodically cleaned out my mailbox over the years, I would show you how wrong you are.

Because Gimpster you have been here as long as I have and you know unless you do not add your email to the report you do not get an email. You should know this by now.

Angelus_dead

08-03-2010, 10:37 AM

If have not periodically cleaned out my mailbox over the years, I would show you how wrong you are.

Because Gimpster you have been here as long as I have and you know unless you do not add your email to the report you do not get an email. You should know this by now.
What are you trying to do?

Keeper

08-03-2010, 11:10 AM

I hate ladders! Hate hate hate! They haunt my nightmares now. But I can honestly say that almost every ladder in the game is placed correctly after that last massive ladder-fix pass that I did back when. If there is currently a bug with ladders, I can't fix it. It's out of my pay-grade.

So (and Keeper can correct me on this if I'm wrong) my general understanding of the way ladders work is that they can get bustificated in two ways:
A) If they're too far in the ground
B) If many moons ago in DDO's early life, the ladder was made using multiple ladder chunks.

One requires Keeper to scoot the ladder out of the ground (or something like that), another requires her to yank the "pieces" out and put in a nice whole ladder. If you're jumping onto the ladder and it's borking, it's like problem B ... usually. I'm sure I said the above wrong :P Keeper can spank me if I'm giving erroneous ladder anatomy.

Not quite right; ladders are supposed to be stuck in the ground in order to function at their best. Multiple ladders strung together cause trouble, and were the cause of 95% of ladder trouble back when I did my big fix. Where they could be replaced with single ladders, they were. However, in a few locations (such as the Snitch, where ladders spawn in) there is no replacement for ladders being strung together. They do behave a bit funky when you climb them, but it shouldn't be a game-stopper. In such situations, take your finger off of the w key and press it again. That should fix the problem.

I don't have time to sift through all of the information here right now, but I will at some point gather information and get it passed along to supplement the other bugs in the system. It looks like there may be some new bug where a ladder misbehaves once, and then the trouble can't be reproduced.

Please note, the best way to report bad ladders is to be on the ladder when you submit the bug. That way, we get the exact location of the ladder. Additional info to add would be: was the trouble in getting on or off the ladder? Was the trouble while climbing up or down? Were you able to use the ladder again after x seconds of trouble? Etc.

Ladders! Hate!

Cyr

08-03-2010, 11:18 AM

Ladders! Hate!

Yet again (since it has been said numerous times in thread already) almost every ladder if not every ladder in the game can bug out in the infinite climb loop. You try and go up and you jerk back to where you were. I can jump off and jump back on and fix it generally. If I jump on at the same spot I tend to get stuck again.

Huge culprits in this regard are the ladders in Von 5 (noticed because I run it a lot). Whenever I level an alt or TR someone I really notice this bug as there are lots of ladders in lower level quests.

This bug manifests like you have a really bad twitch and I bug reported it.. years ago.

Folonius

08-03-2010, 11:18 AM

I hate ladders! Hate hate hate! They haunt my nightmares now. But I can honestly say that almost every ladder in the game is placed correctly after that last massive ladder-fix pass that I did back when. If there is currently a bug with ladders, I can't fix it. It's out of my pay-grade.

Not quite right; ladders are supposed to be stuck in the ground in order to function at their best. Multiple ladders strung together cause trouble, and were the cause of 95% of ladder trouble back when I did my big fix. Where they could be replaced with single ladders, they were. However, in a few locations (such as the Snitch, where ladders spawn in) there is no replacement for ladders being strung together. They do behave a bit funky when you climb them, but it shouldn't be a game-stopper. In such situations, take your finger off of the w key and press it again. That should fix the problem.

I don't have time to sift through all of the information here right now, but I will at some point gather information and get it passed along to supplement the other bugs in the system. It looks like there may be some new bug where a ladder misbehaves once, and then the trouble can't be reproduced.

Please note, the best way to report bad ladders is to be on the ladder when you submit the bug. That way, we get the exact location of the ladder. Additional info to add would be: was the trouble in getting on or off the ladder? Was the trouble while climbing up or down? Were you able to use the ladder again after x seconds of trouble? Etc.

Ladders! Hate!

The question here is ....

Is the spanking going to be made public, and can we watch? :D

Keeper

08-03-2010, 11:21 AM

Yet again (since it has been said numerous times in thread already) almost every ladder if not every ladder in the game can bug out in the infinite climb loop. You try and go up and you jerk back to where you were. I can jump off and jump back on and fix it generally. If I jump on at the same spot I tend to get stuck again.

Huge culprits in this regard are the ladders in Von 5 (noticed because I run it a lot). Whenever I level an alt or TR someone I really notice this bug as there are lots of ladders in lower level quests.

This bug manifests like you have a really bad twitch and I bug reported it.. years ago.

Can you give me some repro steps?

Angelus_dead

08-03-2010, 11:28 AM

Can you give me some repro steps?
I suspect that what they're talking about would be involving for you to reproduce:
1. Fly several hundred miles to an unknown rural town with an unreliable ISP and connect to DDO at a time of high traffic and bandwidth throttling.

It appears that quite a few of these complaints about "bad ladders" are actually describing a problem caused by interference in the client-server position updates, and not the world geometry at all. The player tries to use the ladder but there's some interruption in connectivity, rubberbanding his character back down to the ground.

Probably having the ladder there to transition the character between two animations makes the hitching more apparent than when someone is just walking about.

Cyr

08-03-2010, 11:41 AM

Can you give me some repro steps?

Considering it happens on lots of ladders sure. You walk upto a ladder and try to climb it. Watch the twitching action. Jump off and jump back on higher up and you are good. Run through VON 5 a few times and it is likely to happen.

Important note, unlike the normal lag twitch that is possible when moving this bug gets you 'stuck' in that loop. You do not twitch once and then keep on climbing, you keep on twitching while you are trying to climb. You can stop trying to climb and stop twitching, but you will twitch again if you try to climb without getting off the ladder and getting back on it.

Due to this distinction it seems likely that some data about where you actually are is out of sync and when this occurs with ladders you get stuck unless you jump which is allowed both on ladders and off of ladders (one side thinks you are on the other thinks you are off).

Some details since it seems likely the issue is not a geometry issue, but a server/client communication issue in some manner...

Live in MN in the suburbs. I have a cable internet connection. I use this same connection to watch HD movies on my 52' TV off of netflix. A few times a day I might get a loss of data issue on netflix. I almost never (every few months) have connection issues that drop me from the game.

Pwesiela

08-03-2010, 11:42 AM

I hate ladders! Hate hate hate! They haunt my nightmares now.

Ladders! Hate!

I think you need to join the kobolds and go see someone about this condition. With them, it's boxes. With you, it's ladders.

Seriously, I think you should see the same psychiatrist. They probably specialize in inanimate object hatred. Probably subspecializing in phobias. :D

skyking613

08-03-2010, 11:43 AM

I suspect that what they're talking about would be involving for you to reproduce:
1. Fly several hundred miles to an unknown rural town with an unreliable ISP and connect to DDO at a time of high traffic and bandwidth throttling.

It appears that quite a few of these complaints about "bad ladders" are actually describing a problem caused by interference in the client-server position updates, and not the world geometry at all. The player tries to use the ladder but there's some interruption in connectivity, rubberbanding his character back down to the ground.

Probably having the ladder there to transition the character between two animations makes the hitching more apparent than when someone is just walking about.

Actully, I have had this happen to me a lot also. It seems more like a physics detection problem. Like it thinks you have reached the top of a ladder. You can see you character looks like it wants to walk like it is on flat ground, for a split second, but there is no flat ground. So you "fall" back onto the ladder. Over and over, till you jump off and try again.

rdasca

08-03-2010, 11:44 AM

Ok I have one that gets me every time in the tavern next to the marketplace bank. The ladder in the battle pit, if your toon is facing towards the front of the tavern it is the ladder on the right hand side, I cannot climb that ladder without jumping onto it.

As for my connection and system, I have fiber to my house at 18mb down and up, my network inside is 1gb cat6, my system is P4 dual core 3.0 with 4gb of ddr3 ram, and my video is a 1gb nVidia.

Samadhi

08-03-2010, 11:48 AM

Considering it happens on lots of ladders sure. You walk upto a ladder and try to climb it. Watch the twitching action. Jump off and jump back on higher up and you are good. Run through VON 5 a few times and it is likely to happen.

Important note, unlike the normal lag twitch that is possible when moving this bug gets you 'stuck' in that loop. You do not twitch once and then keep on climbing, you keep on twitching while you are trying to climb. You can stop trying to climb and stop twitching, but you will twitch again if you try to climb without getting off the ladder and getting back on it.

Due to this distinction it seems likely that some data about where you actually are is out of sync and when this occurs with ladders you get stuck unless you jump which is allowed both on ladders and off of ladders (one side thinks you are on the other thinks you are off).

Just to reiterate, what this guy said.

Zenako

08-03-2010, 11:51 AM

Just a some more info. I seldom see the ladder hitching bug, but I play in the same part of the state where the servers are located and have a nice cable connection.

So perhaps that could be a part of the generic issue that seems to elude specific ladder geometry.

MateCarefor

08-03-2010, 11:51 AM

I suspect that what they're talking about would be involving for you to reproduce:
1. Fly several hundred miles to an unknown rural town with an unreliable ISP and connect to DDO at a time of high traffic and bandwidth throttling.

It appears that quite a few of these complaints about "bad ladders" are actually describing a problem caused by interference in the client-server position updates, and not the world geometry at all. The player tries to use the ladder but there's some interruption in connectivity, rubberbanding his character back down to the ground.

Probably having the ladder there to transition the character between two animations makes the hitching more apparent than when someone is just walking about.

Then what puts it in the infinite loop?
My poor backwater internet connection?

In my attempt to be helpful (unlike others), I would say it is 90% reproducible for me if I hop to a ladder from water.
That seems to always spawn me into a rebounding splash, grab, sorta climb, back to splash, grab, etc, etc.

I can get about 50% occurance on any ladder when I am on the downward side of a jump arc when I interact with a lower portion of said ladder
(like it tries to resolve my standing animation as well as my climbing or something - no clue)

Keeper

08-03-2010, 11:51 AM

Thanks Cyr and everyone. Keep posting info here and I'll keep adding it to the bug. . .

Missing_Minds

08-03-2010, 12:01 PM

Considering it happens on lots of ladders sure. You walk upto a ladder and try to climb it. Watch the twitching action. Jump off and jump back on higher up and you are good. Run through VON 5 a few times and it is likely to happen.

1. Take your hands away from the keyboard and mouse. Aka stop trying to move.
2. Wait for hitching to stop.
3. Now move the character to the ladder as client and server are in agreement about position. You will note that the character ends up about 2-3 feet away from the ladder.

This is a client server issue, not a ladder bug even if the ladder is where you can reproduce it the most.

DagazUlf

08-03-2010, 12:14 PM

This is a client server issue, not a ladder bug even if the ladder is where you can reproduce it the most.

Agreed that it is a client-server issue, but I think there is something specific to ladders that makes it more apparent/worse than anything or anywhere else in the game.

Perhaps there are there some kind of physics or environment checks that are specific to just ladders that can be tweaked or adjusted?

Tolero

08-03-2010, 12:15 PM

Yeah please do keep the details coming, because there has to be something specific about it.

- Been running all over the place the past two weeks climbing around on all sorts of ladders with at least 3 or 4 different race/class combos just in my general play. No ladder wackyness.

- I've run Von5 recently (like within the past week even). None of our 12 person group was getting stuck on any of the ladders like this.

- So this thread reminded me to go find the naughty ladder I found a few weeks ago in House D (dry land ladder) and show it to Keeper. I went back to the ladder and cannot for the life of me get the behavior to happen again. I tried everything I can think of... even using the exact same character and exact same gear, walking onto it, climbing up/down it, jumping onto it, jumping onto the bottom of it, jumping onto the top of it, falling onto it, climb/release/climbing it, emoting at it, climbing it then mashing my face on the keyboard.... nadda. Had Keeper try it. Nadda. Can't get it to do what it did to me before (which is the exact behavior being described in the thread).

So there has to be something more specific going on, and more recent.

Coldin

08-03-2010, 12:24 PM

The only issue I have with ladders lately is this.

I'll jump onto the ladder, then immediately start "hitching" back down the ladder, even if I'm trying to climb up it. That is, I'll keep being forced down little by little till I reach the bottom. When this happens, I can't stop the hitching unless I just stop moving, wait till I reach the bottom, then climb the ladder again.

This also happens very rarely.

GoldyGopher

08-03-2010, 12:33 PM

Yeah please do keep the details coming, because there has to be something specific about it.

So there has to be something more specific going on, and more recent.

I always have the problem in the second and third part of Baudry, where you climb the latter to get the case at the end of the quest. I just bopped into the endless loop not more than 15 minutes ago. Doesn't matter how I climb the latter or attempt to get on, it takes three or four attempts for it to work.
For me this has been an issue since closed beta, through several computers, multiple accounts, and hundreds of characters.

jjflanigan

08-03-2010, 12:48 PM

I'd place good money that it is latency related. If you guys have a system in place to simulate a high network load, fire that off and see if you can get the hitching to happen on the ladder.

I say that because every time I've had this happen, I've had a least one or two "rubber band events" during the same session.

iamsamoth0

08-03-2010, 12:56 PM

I as well have had issues as recently as two-three days ago. When I get a third the way up the ladder it starts hitching. It was somewhat consistent. I was on a pretty good connection, and I was using my dell box at the time even. I was playing the the House P content some. And on multiple servers, i.e. Thelanis, and Argo. I can try to post up via bug report the /loc's for these. But I can't use the Dell box to recreate, I will try with the Netbook and see if it happens again. Very nearly got me killed a couple of times.

Samadhi

08-03-2010, 12:58 PM

- I've run Von5 recently (like within the past week even). None of our 12 person group was getting stuck on any of the ladders like this.

Are you sure? Typically no one bothers to even mention stuff like this in group, myself included. I jump off, get annoyed, and jump back on and hope it doesn't happen again. It isn't worth discussing as a group; and I sure as hell don't have time to bug report it when I got people waiting at the golem for me to quit screwing around and get up there.

Keeper

08-03-2010, 12:59 PM

This is very helpful, everyone. I am compiling a nice fat juicy bug. . .

ahpook

08-03-2010, 12:59 PM

...
The reason I say past experience is a strawman is because while past experiences may have been bad in regards to bug reporting, that's not what we are really talking about. We are talking about bug reporting, or at least the Op is, in the relative present, and not last year, or even the begginning of this year, but post U5. ....

And I think that the concensus is that NOW, Post U5, the experience is still bad. It is bad because we report bugs, and they don't show up on the Known Issues list. We have no idea why. It is a bug, we have reported it, all our party members have experienced it, WHY is it not on the Known Issues list? Tolero says that is because only items they don't want bug reports on go on to the KI list. Consensus seems to be that that is insufficient.

Agreed that it is a client-server issue, but I think there is something specific to ladders that makes it more apparent/worse than anything or anywhere else in the game.

Perhaps there are there some kind of physics or environment checks that are specific to just ladders that can be tweaked or adjusted?
Well, ladders are the only terrain where X and Y remain static but Z changes and the ability for Z to change requires an agreement on X and Y to begin. Everywhere else if X and Y get out sync, you just give new deltas and things resync and you keep running. However, on a ladder, your delta is in the Z axis, and since that is not possible with the wrong X and Y, you never get corrected.

Finally, Tolero, please quit referencing the ladder problem when talking about bug submissions. As you can see it is not as cut and dried as you thought and it derails what should be a productive discussion on the nature of the Known Issues list. You have referenced the ladder problem in the past and caused derailing as people explain that the ladder problem is not what you think it is. On the bright side, it looks like that message might be getting through this time. :rolleyes:

Cyr

08-03-2010, 01:01 PM

- I've run Von5 recently (like within the past week even). None of our 12 person group was getting stuck on any of the ladders like this.

* Were you running on a live server?

* I assume you polled everyone in your party about this issue at the time to make that statement...

Pwesiela

08-03-2010, 01:08 PM

This is very helpful, everyone. I am compiling a nice fat juicy bug. . .

Now, let's discuss a few spell problems, shall we?

Tolero

08-03-2010, 01:12 PM

Folonius

08-03-2010, 01:12 PM

And I think that the concensus is that NOW, Post U5, the experience is still bad.

I'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Keeper

08-03-2010, 01:12 PM

Or sewers in The Snitch. The ladders are too close to the end of the tunnel so trying to climb up them from the bottom is near impossible. It effects any ladder who's base is in a sewer tunnel in that quest.

Oh right, I had forgotten about this case. I haven't found a good work-around for this problem yet. You're right, it's an issue with the physics of the wall interfering with the physics of the ladder.

Tolero

08-03-2010, 01:13 PM

* Were you running on a live server?

* I assume you polled everyone in your party about this issue at the time to make that statement...

Live server, normal characters, at home not work, with devs.

Folonius

08-03-2010, 01:15 PM

Coincidentally, a bug I recently reported

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=266175

I bugged it already in game. As for the ladders, I'm lazy, so I always jump onto ladders. I've never encountered any issues with them.

smatt

08-03-2010, 01:26 PM

Are you sure? Typically no one bothers to even mention stuff like this in group, myself included. I jump off, get annoyed, and jump back on and hope it doesn't happen again. It isn't worth discussing as a group; and I sure as hell don't have time to bug report it when I got people waiting at the golem for me to quit screwing around and get up there. You see and here's the problem... Most of the vets are frustrated and have the impression that their bug reports go in the trash... So when they do encounter such things they don't bother to report them. But then there's also the point where some will constantly ***** and complain and wouldn't bother to report something anyways... Why? Because all they ever do is complain :)

I THOUGHT, that when 404error showed up maybe the bug reporting and communication about bugs, where they were and the status of said bugs would be better. The sytem is faulty, the players don't know what to report and what not to report, what should be in cluded and what shouldn't. And even if anybody bothers to read what is reported, becasue the players simply dont' see that someone has ever acknowledged the report in a real way. And then whether or not the Devs have a handle on a bug, but simply haven't had time to work on it., or can't recreate it, or need more info on it.

It's broken..... From the ground up it's broken.... The "Known Issues" list does little to no good...

zorander6

08-03-2010, 01:43 PM

The problem is that Turbine thinks that people will report problems not on the list, sometimes they do. However due to history some have given up on that as they don't see any changes or acknowledgment that something is an issue a lot of times.

Honestly a known issues list is useless if it only shows issues that you don't want feedback or more information on. That just says that "these issues are what we care about and don't worry about the rest." It's all a psychological thing, if people know that Keeper is working on the ladder issue and wants detailed info like in this thread then a lot of people will give her information. I see the ladder problem pretty regularly when my wife and I are both playing, we both use hardwired connections and have 8mb down and 1mb up IIRC. Connection indicator is almost always green. If I jump on the ladder I usually don't have problems but if I start at base I do. Not sure about the wife....I also typically run slacker and skype while playing as I talk to the guild and listen to music I like. :)

Bladedge

08-03-2010, 01:45 PM

When it comes to ladders being broken or buged topic we get answers fast. When players mentioning Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude has not been working since it was introduce it is passed over with out a word from a single dev, not a single we looking in to it, need more info, its a know issue, we get to it we its time to look over WF enhancements.

knightgf

08-03-2010, 01:48 PM

Have you tried applying a layer of grease on the ladder that's giving you trouble? That might help you get up the ladder more smoothly.

Oh, on a serious note, how exactly do you end up slipping and falling ON the ladder and not off? I can understand losing your grip and falling all the way down, but instead, you simply fall 'on' the ladder and lay on the air until you make a balance check...

Kelavam

08-03-2010, 01:58 PM

I am guilty of seeing something, and not reporting it as a bug. I have had a lot of rubberbanding lately, but it is not just on ladders, it's everywhere. Jumping off the platform in Orchard to suddenly appear back on the platform. I try again, and it works, so I just blame lag. Or my slow connection. Everyone in my group experiences it from time to time, so it's not a big deal, unless it causes a party wipe. STILL the best MMO I have played, by a long shot.

I think, as of the last few months, I have seen a lot of good responses from the Turbine/DDO team. They are making an effort to get into the forums and respond to our queries and needs - and are trying to address things as best they can. The fact they are making an effort to respond to our questions and concerns speaks a lot for the effort they are trying to make to address situations. 2 other MMO's I played I never saw them in the forums, no one ever responded to PMs, in game contact.. Nothing.

I know a good amount of players are upset about certain bugs and lack of bugs being addressed. But this feedback from the Devs and the Turbine Team should show us that that are willing to listen and do what they can. I guess I find it bothersome to see some people come in here and just rail on them, when they are really trying to make themselves visible and attempting to help. Perhaps you are not getting the answers you are looking for, but back off a little. Give them some credit.

Keeper

08-03-2010, 02:03 PM

Keeper

08-03-2010, 02:04 PM

have You Tried Applying A Layer Of Grease On The Ladder That's Giving You Trouble? That Might Help You Get Up The Ladder More Smoothly.

:d :d :d

[edit]I'm having smilie issues now, grrr.

Missing_Minds

08-03-2010, 02:10 PM

Oh right, I had forgotten about this case. I haven't found a good work-around for this problem yet. You're right, it's an issue with the physics of the wall interfering with the physics of the ladder.

If the map has space, extend the end of the tunnel out further to not be a block?

Bladedge

08-03-2010, 02:15 PM

Different problem, different dev. And I happen to have an old hatred of ladders.

I know.
Comment was meant for Telero, the proper dev(s) and Q&A.

As for the ladders ,have them all be mimics that you have to kill before you can use them.

Lorien_the_First_One

08-03-2010, 02:18 PM

Different problem, different dev. And I happen to have an old hatred of ladders.

You are definately one of the good ones in general when it comes to poking your head in and commenting on stuff that touches your areas. It is appreciated :)

And those of us who have been around for a while understand that the devs that do poke their head in here do so on their on time - and unfortunately sometimes get attacked for their efforts. I thank all of you who do show up for putting in that effort and hope you will continue to do so and ignore those who choose to make things uncomfortable.

Alanim

08-03-2010, 02:19 PM

from personal testing, the ladder bug is caused by landing at the bottom from a jump, the best way to replicate this bug is to TAKE OFF featherfall and jump at the bottom numerous times, till you get the bug to occur I can normally reproduce this bug within a minute.

*edit 2* I also did this with 25% striders and 33 jump.

It has something to do with landing on the ground and the ladder at the same time?

also another mention, keeper in the harbor behind the house near the boat showroom there is a ladder that cannot be climbed(something is in the way, unless this was fixed, since it was bugged in lama but I haven't checked since)

Also... for the rage/etc. bug could it be something happened when someone tweaked death aura's to effect targets based on caster level?(since that was the only thing I saw AOE related and happened on that update).

*edit* also the ladder bug I'm doing could be a completely different or semi-related to another ladder bug, I'm unsure.

Cyr

08-03-2010, 02:19 PM

Different problem, different dev. And I happen to have an old hatred of ladders.

We know.

Maybe it's time to throw something at that dev to wake them up or pop into management's office and have a little chat about making the Known Issues list a comprehensive list.

It's not too tough to split it into two sections....

One section is bugs that no longer need any bug reporting details
The second are bugs that could use more bug reports to fully understand what is causing them

Keeper

08-03-2010, 02:27 PM

Maybe it's time to throw something at that dev to wake them up . . .

You guys are looking at this backwards. The other devs, the ones who aren't responding right now, they are busy with genuinely important things. I, on the other hand, and doing the equivalent of pushing the broom around the room.

I'm procrastinating because I promised someone I would make a map, and I don't wanna. . .

Folonius

08-03-2010, 02:32 PM

SkyCry

08-03-2010, 02:32 PM

I have also experienced "autobacktrack" issues with ladders. It happens no matter what ladder is used, however I'm yet to find a reliable way to reproduce it. Generally it occurs when you lag-jump* onto a ladder - it's almost as if your client thinks you're on the ladder, while server thinks you're not... so each time you try to climb up while on a ladder results in server lag-pulling you back down since it thinks you can't climb a ladder you're not on.

*I assume Devs know what lag-jumping is - it happens quite often that simply trying to jump makes your client and server unsynchronized with a server update pulling you back down and allowing you to jump only a second or half a second later. This results in your jump going completely differently than you expect, making it really hard to control, resulting in many broken adventurer necks, especially in pit-like quests.

Clearly this issue is not in Keeper's area of expertise.

Angelus_dead

08-03-2010, 02:33 PM

You guys are looking at this backwards. The other devs, the ones who aren't responding right now, they are busy with genuinely important things. I, on the other hand, and doing the equivalent of pushing the broom around the room.
Adding entries to the Known Issues list is something probably any dev could handle, regardless of specialization.

When a (non-exploit) bug is confirmed, the first step is add it to Known Issues to uphold honesty with the customers. The longer it will take to fix the bug, the more important it is to have its existence documented so players aren't unpleasantly surprised.

zorander6

08-03-2010, 02:36 PM

We know.

Maybe it's time to throw something at that dev to wake them up or pop into management's office and have a little chat about making the Known Issues list a comprehensive list.

It's not too tough to split it into two sections....

One section is bugs that no longer need any bug reporting details
The second are bugs that could use more bug reports to fully understand what is causing them

This ^^

A large majority of the people who attack you are frustrated, most of the time it's not personal. However I appreciate seeing devs like Keeper and MadFloyd popping in and asking questions and letting us know what is going on. It is something (time consuming and) simple that makes me feel like I'm being listened to. As for the bug report thing, showing both known and need more info bugs in different sections would be very nice for those of us who look at them. Knowing what team if not individual developer is working on an issue and occasional comments on said issue shows people that bugs are really being worked on. ;) This is more a customer satisfaction thing for many people who love this game but get frustrated by issues.

If I knew about particular bugs that needed to be tested for info I'd be willing to test when I'm not running with my guild. If you can track individuals across quests I'd be happy to let you do a tracer on my characters even. I'd just have to know what bug I'm trying to duplicate. ;)

Keeper

08-03-2010, 02:42 PM

Thanks to those of you who mentioned the blocked ladder in the Harbor. Oops! That one was my fault. I had pushed the building a little too close to the wall. There, the fix in in now.

Have fun on the roof!

Folonius

08-03-2010, 02:43 PM

I'm procrastinating because I promised someone I would make a map, and I don't wanna. . .

http://craphound.com/images/c++map.jpeg

Hendrik

08-03-2010, 03:04 PM

Thank you Keeper for the posting and communication!

/respect

Asketes

08-03-2010, 03:28 PM

You are definately one of the good ones in general when it comes to poking your head in and commenting on stuff that touches your areas. It is appreciated :)

And those of us who have been around for a while understand that the devs that do poke their head in here do so on their on time - and unfortunately sometimes get attacked for their efforts. I thank all of you who do show up for putting in that effort and hope you will continue to do so and ignore those who choose to make things uncomfortable.

what I felt, but didn't have the exact words for

thanks guys

MrWizard

08-03-2010, 03:54 PM

Oh right, I had forgotten about this case. I haven't found a good work-around for this problem yet. You're right, it's an issue with the physics of the wall interfering with the physics of the ladder.

big rock at bottom of ladder raises you up before climb start..?

MrWizard

08-03-2010, 04:07 PM

This is the strangest thread ever..

1) the sheer number of responses from turbine crew...the entire first page of dev tracker is mostly this thread.

2) 10 points to tolero for derailing the thread on the second post for bringing up ladders and making it a multi thread where one is totally about ladders.

3) The ladders derail gave poor Keeper a flashback and nightmares.

4) stop talking about ladders

5) I can make any ladder in the game bug, its easy, just hit jump and work on landing on the wrong spot and you will loop...guaranteed.

6) we learn people file bug report by saying 'titan bug' and that is all

7) we learn known issues listed in the forums are only ones they do not want us to report on anymore, the rest they know about but need more info or just don't mind us continually bug reporting it

8) they are not aware the suulo chest is not dropping correctly

9) and we learn Phax is the dev of last resort...don't anger the phax.

10) the cube is neither mentioned, honored, nor has made an appearance in this thread.

11) some ladders are naughty

12) Genasi would rather phax look into it

13) Phax would rather Genasi look into it

14) keeper is the funny one and has to use the broom

15) Fernando stays away from the programmers while Kate just shakes her head and closes her office door while crossing her fingers

all this spells one thing

doom.

soon.

mysterious.

Vast.

Ice cream

.

Sarezar

08-03-2010, 04:07 PM

I reported Polar Ray (and Incendiary Cloud) incorrectly applying Heighten on them last Xmas from EU. It was also posted there in October. Which means more people knew it here since then or even earlier. But that could easily be Codemasters fault.

So, I resubmitted a very detailed bug report here 3 times since I joined in January. I send one of these every 2 Updates. I also posted it in the Wizard forum here, where other players acknowledged it as something that they bug reported ages ago.

It's been almost a year where Polar Ray (and Incendiary Cloud) is affected by Heighten. I am definitely not an expert, but I would think switching off a Metamagic Feat from a spell is not something that requires a year's worth of work - even if it is not game breaking.

I can only guess that the bug report is either never read but the developers OR that someone decides that a spell that nearly all of the level 17+ arcane casters in the game have and use very frequently is not important enough to fix in one of the updates we had since last October.

In either case, something is not working properly IMO.

zorander6

08-03-2010, 04:14 PM

Or Turbine considers those spells WAI. Problem is we don't know that since we don't know if it's considered a bug or not....

Folonius

08-03-2010, 04:20 PM

Or Turbine considers those spells WAI. Problem is we don't know that since we don't know if it's considered a bug or not....

Hi Welcome

Maybe the intent was for it to work the way it is? But if we're getting bug reports from people who are confused, it gives the quest folks leverage to change it. Not always, but it's added ammunition. :)

Tolero

08-03-2010, 04:43 PM

Adding entries to the Known Issues list is something probably any dev could handle, regardless of specialization.

Oh you'd think that, but you'd be surprised at the shape some fixes come in before we get to word-smith them into something a player can understand :D sometimes because coders are not language artists, but sometimes because devs have a bad habit of talking in all dev speak. It is most definitely not a simple process to update the list in a way that makes sense to the end user and doesn't just confuse them further.

This is the strangest thread ever..
1) the sheer number of responses from turbine crew...the entire first page of dev tracker is mostly this thread.
2) 10 points to tolero for derailing the thread on the second post for bringing up ladders and making it a multi thread where one is totally about ladders...

To be fair.... I was told there would be ice cream.

Kelavam

08-03-2010, 05:02 PM

To be fair.... I was told there would be ice cream.

Wait.. What? There is not? That is why *I* came too. Someone owes me.. :)

rdasca

08-03-2010, 05:08 PM

Oh you'd think that, but you'd be surprised at the shape some fixes come in before we get to word-smith them into something a player can understand :D sometimes because coders are not language artists, but sometimes because devs have a bad habit of talking in all dev speak. It is most definitely not a simple process to update the list in a way that makes sense to the end user and doesn't just confuse them further.

To be fair.... I was told there would be ice cream.

Tolero, first I do thank you for coming on here and getting beat up :D ... and I do appreciate the work that you and the rest of the Turbine staff do on this game (except the GMs, but that is a whole other thread).

But really, it is not that hard to say something like "Spell such and such is not working as intended right now" or something along those lines, that is all people here really want is a list of things that you and the rest of Turbine already know about, that way we know if something is being fixed or at least is known about. Personally I have stopped submitting bug reports because frankly none of the ones I ever see end up on the known list, so it seems to me from my perspective that they are simply ignored, now this may not be the case, yet that is my perception as well as quite a few others evidenced by the very nature of this thread.

BTY, just for you ;)
http://fancyflours.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/ice-cream-cone.jpg

Khurse

08-03-2010, 05:09 PM

Angelus_dead

08-03-2010, 05:19 PM

Oh you'd think that, but you'd be surprised at the shape some fixes come in before we get to word-smith them into something a player can understand
...
It is most definitely not a simple process to update the list in a way that makes sense to the end user and doesn't just confuse them further.
It's not unmanageably hard. Imperfect list entries are better than nothing.

Here, I'll give you three sample Known Issues that could be added:
The Rage spell only affects a single target. It will be restored to an AOE buff in the future.
The Master Of Archery capstone enhancement for Rangers gives a speed benefit of less than the listed 25%. This is as intended, and the text will be corrected in the future.
Clicky spell amplification effects such as Inferno and Ardor (but not Efficacy) grant a higher bonus than stated, such as 75% for Superior instead of 50%. This is intentional and the text will be updated in the future.
How much time does it really take for this kind of writing?

TiranBlade

08-03-2010, 05:25 PM

MrCow

08-03-2010, 05:26 PM

How much time does it really take for this kind of writing?

That depends how much of an expert you are on the system and the specific issues. You proved the one of the problems of making these lists when you aren't knowledgeable of the entirety of the issues with your theoretical Master of Archery bullet (where the issue is that the reload animation only partly benefits from attack speed bonuses).

KillEveryone

08-03-2010, 05:28 PM

Clicky spell amplification effects such as Inferno and Ardor (but not Efficacy) grant a higher bonus than stated, such as 75% for Superior instead of 50%. This is intentional and the text will be updated in the future.[/list]
How much time does it really take for this kind of writing?

Now I didn't know about these. Are these real or just examples?

If they are real then I would have liked to know about them.

Angelus_dead

08-03-2010, 05:32 PM

You proved the one of the problems of making these lists when you aren't knowledgeable of the entirety of the issues with your theoretical Master of Archery bullet (where the issue is that the reload animation only partly benefits from attack speed bonuses).
No, the sample entry is adequate, and a major upgrade from not listing it at all.

It correctly informs players that the Master of Archery capstone will not provide them with the 25% increase to ranged attack speed it says it does. The details of what specific implementation problems caused that situation are beside the point. The important part is warning the customers that the results will not be as advertised.

Angelus_dead

08-03-2010, 05:35 PM

Now I didn't know about these. Are these real or just examples?
Yes, they're real. Some of them have been publicly acknowledged by Turbine developers in release notes or other venues. But until such time as the in-game descriptions match up with the actual effect, that's something that deserves to be listed as a "known issue".

MrCow

08-03-2010, 05:36 PM

No, the sample entry is entirely adequate.

It correctly informs players that the Master of Archery capstone will not provide them with the 25% increase to ranged attack speed it says it does. The details of what specific implementation problems caused that situation are beside the point.

But to state that it is not intended to be 25% when it very well may be intended to be 25% because of misinterpreting the issue? That is a dangerous thing to say to the public.

Angelus_dead

08-03-2010, 05:45 PM

But to state that it is not intended to be 25% when it very well may be intended to be 25% because of misinterpreting the issue?
Oh, I guess there is the possibility that they intend it to be 25%. If that's the case, then yes it would be undesirable to misinform the public, although not "dangerous".

In the event that the person writing the notes does not have access to whoever makes the decision about class features then it's easy enough to omit statements about what might be intended and just report the facts as they exist currently.

I hope I'm not being too optimistic in assuming that the devs noticed what a bad idea it is to give an Arcane Archer Ranger a 25% DPS increase just for advancing from level 19 to 20.

Rumbaar

08-03-2010, 05:49 PM

For such a serious issue, I too wish we would get off ladders and address the major concern of lack of information made available to us via a 'true' known issues resource.

AyumiAmakusa

08-03-2010, 05:52 PM

For such a serious issue, I too wish we would get off ladders and address the major concern of lack of information made available to us via a 'true' known issues resource.

In the mean time make do with this http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3165363#post3165363

dragonruler

08-03-2010, 05:54 PM

Hey Keeper, did you by chance get my ladder bug I reported for on the guild airship back when U5 was still on Lamannia? It should be dated the day of the big dev party on the guild airship. I told Tolero and she was like bug report it so Keeper can take a gander at it.

(Don't think she actually said gander but it sounds like something she'd say. :D )

I wanna say it was the back left ladder on the Stormglory? Whatever the nonstore bought medium sized ship is.

MrWizard

08-03-2010, 05:57 PM

in all honesty, the amrath unique sets are really bugged and except for one dev post in one thread stating it was a database issue there has been no known issue addition and I hardly think they want us to keep reporting it...

?

punch and pie too

iamsamoth0

08-03-2010, 06:01 PM

I think aside from the Rare ladder loop I have from time to time, the only other ladder issue I have is with garl's tomb in 3bc, you have to jump on the sail in order to climb the ladder, you can't climd directly out of the water and up the ladder, the sail is actually a physical peice and blocks the ladder ascension.

That was one I got the other day, it was completely frustrating. I confess I did not bug it though. And eventually it simply slipped my mind. It was incredibly aggravating. Thank you for getting that one out!, if not again....It wont allow you to climb out of the water either, unless this is WAI players have to swim all the way around to the other chamber to get up, and then run all the way back around.

Auran82

08-03-2010, 09:49 PM

That depends how much of an expert you are on the system and the specific issues. You proved the one of the problems of making these lists when you aren't knowledgeable of the entirety of the issues with your theoretical Master of Archery bullet (where the issue is that the reload animation only partly benefits from attack speed bonuses).

Whether his examples are completely correct or not isn't really important, the people responsible for updating a 'known issues' list, should be able to translate 'dev speak' into common for that purpose, if the issue is too complex to describe easily, just put in the best description that you can. The main thing is, that non-exploit related bugs should be listed somewhere so we know they exist, if they still need more info then say that in the bug listing so people can submit more detailed bug reports if they come across it.

Hell, apparently there is a whole server with dev chosen players who are supposed to be doing testing and submitting detailed bug reports, what are they doing exactly.

I mean seriously, how is 'Rage and <insert other spells affected> are currently only effecting one person' not on the official known issues list, do you really need more detailed reports on that? Do I need to log onto my bard, run a heap of quests, a file a bug report each time I cast the spell, detailing the quest I was in, who was in my group, and the /loc of where I was standing at the time to help you troubleshoot? Was this not picked up in QA before release? Or were they just hoping no-one would notice until they could fix it.

Mister_Peace

08-03-2010, 10:38 PM

Incorrect. I was climbing all over ladders this weekend with no issue. The only funky ladder I found is one in the public space in House D. And... like a bad person... I didn't /loc it and will now have to go back and find it and /loc it for Keeper >>

Incidentally T, how often do you find that "I looked for that bug and I didn't see it"

@_@

TiranBlade

08-03-2010, 11:35 PM

That was one I got the other day, it was completely frustrating. I confess I did not bug it though. And eventually it simply slipped my mind. It was incredibly aggravating. Thank you for getting that one out!, if not again....It wont allow you to climb out of the water either, unless this is WAI players have to swim all the way around to the other chamber to get up, and then run all the way back around.

Well I am planning on running the quest here again soon, I'll get right on the ladder, bump my head so the bug will come out. Hopefully this will be addressed if it is indeed a bug.

Kromize

08-03-2010, 11:51 PM

It's very situational.

Take "ladders" for example. We actually had to add a KI to tell people to KEEP reporting them because to a player, this "seems" like a "simple" fix... it's just a ladder right? Little did they know it is something that Keeper has to go to the particular ladder and then hand remove/replant it. They're standing in the Market filing a bug report about a ladder they found two quests ago before they log out for the night. Half the time they didn't even get the quest name right because it was in part 3 of a 4 part quest chain. How does Keeper know where the ladder was?

In other cases, if there is something broken and people deflect to just not playing it rather than telling us about it, then it's likely that issue can end up lower in the hopper because other issues/reports are getting more traffic. When an issue is evenly pitted against another issue, how hard the issue is being "felt" can be a part of whether or not it's on the KI list.

Other times well... we're getting reports, but the reports we get are... lacking in detail. "FIX MOB!" Ok... what about the mob is wrong? There are maaany ways something can be broken, and what seems obvious to you isn't necessarily to the one reading your bug report with no context. You'd be surprised by the number of bug reports we get that lack details because the player assumes the way it is broken makes sense to be described as "FIX MOB" or "QUEST WONT WORK" or "BAD MONSTER."

Every situation is different. Unless you see something saying not to, it's a good idea to file a bug report. (That isn't a license to spam the reporting tool. Only send a second one on the same issue if you found more details than you had the first time that could be enlightening).

Maybe you oughta give people a 100 TP reward for helpful bug reports. :D

Keeper

08-04-2010, 10:18 AM

Hey Keeper, did you by chance get my ladder bug I reported for on the guild airship back when U5 was still on Lamannia?

Yup, I fixed it.

Strakeln

08-04-2010, 12:01 PM

That's in contradiction to the rest of your post.
Wrong.

You just got done describing how an obvious bug can be well known for an excessively long time without being fixed; so then how can you accuse QA personnel of not detecting it?
Because I was talking about the players knowing and attempting (but not succeeding) to inform Turbine via the proper channels.

You have no way to know whether they didn't notice it, or the devs simply didn't fix it.
Correct, I have not heard from QA. I do know for a fact that the devs didn't know about it, and furthermore, their internal build didn't show the problem. While it's okay for a dev to be on a different build, if that's QA's excuse for not noticing the problem, then it speaks to all sorts of improper testing procedures (or a lack of procedure).

Really, minimal existence of a feature is something the programmer should've handled himself.
Agreed. At the same time, it's QA's job to find what the programmer missed.

smatt

08-04-2010, 12:28 PM

You Have No Way To Know Whether They Didn't Notice It, Or The Devs Simply Didn't Fix It.

This Is The Problem :d

Riggs

08-07-2010, 12:05 AM

You done yet, or you still stealth editing? Honestly, how do people take you seriously if you keep changing your post.

Because I made a scathing comment about you calling Tolero the OP - which combined with calling Tolero a HE adds weight to the list of things demonstrating your lack of....something I shouldnt print.

After rereading the post several times I decided it may have just been you cant put a proper sentance together and there was a slim possibility you were just mixing up what Tolero said and referencing the OP in the same line. I took it out rather than get into a big argument about grammar which has no bearing on the bug report issue, and I really have no desire to get into a stupid argument with someone that thinks past is irrelevant to present. Let a lot of criminals go because they didnt commit any crimes TODAY? Good logic there.

But that post of yours is basically a personal slam with again no facts or reasons contained in it. So while a few days late, there it is.

Dont try to argue logic if you dont know what it is first...and you have yet to prove you do.
(**edit ohh look im being tricky!)The fallacy was that the OP, and everyone else's responses stating bugs dont get fixed even when they have reported them - accurately. The strawman was saying bugs dont get fixed because Turbine ONLY gets bad bug reports. If that isnt clear enough then nothing is.(end of edit)

/derail off.

I would like to repeat what some others said - any dev response is almost always good news. (Almost), Thanks Keeper for posting stuff and Tolero for at least taking all the grief from us.

But still it would be a MASSIVE boost to player goodwill to actually see a list of:
Bugs but dont need more info,
Bugs, need more info please submit reports,
Issues that may or may not be bugs, but has been reported as not working as intended by multiple players and so is on the list until proven intended or getting some dev checking on it.

Many players would put a lot of time into testing and sending in accurate reports if there was some kind of good feedback, and a public list showing issues players have known about for weeks, months, or sometimes years.

parvo

08-09-2010, 11:44 PM

What are you trying to do?

Every time I fill out a bug report, I get a confirmation e-mail from Turbine. Hen is right. If you're not getting the confirm, they probably don't have your e-mail right in that database. It's probably a bug ;)

KannyaAryien

08-10-2010, 01:16 PM

To be honest, if there was a standardized list of bugs, even just general info like "mob/ladder/etc. x in quest y occasionally bugs, need more info", I would look through that and go hunt down those bugs. We, as the player base, can gather oodles of information for the devs, especially if we have somewhere to start.

So, I humbly entreat those in power, and I don't mean the hamsters, to throw us a bone. If the game's broken in a few places, we are your best bet for gathering info. And if we have some basic information, we can find all manner of ingenious ways to try to recreate the problem. :D It's what we do best.

But for the record, loved seeing all the responses from Tolero and Keeper. Makes me a happy person. :)

MrkGrismer

08-11-2010, 11:32 AM

To see the amount of back-and-forth on this thread I have to wonder if perhaps a FORUM entitled Bugs and Known Issues in which devs could sticky threads in which they wanted additional information/feedback from players and players could post questions/bug reports (in addition to using the in-game bug reporting tool, since it includes location information) would be useful.

It seems to me that in instances where the players get involved the amount of information on a particular bug quickly accumulates, I am noting specifically the DPS/Bandwidth Cap bug test that was conducted on Lam with accompanying thread in the Lam forum.

Thechemicals

08-11-2010, 11:37 AM

Yup, I fixed it.

Fixed it nice. Why is he asking about it then?

AyumiAmakusa

08-11-2010, 11:38 AM

MrkGrismer

08-11-2010, 12:02 PM

I think we call that 'The House of Errors'

I don't see that on the forum list: http://forums.ddo.com/index.php

You mean this? http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=175017&page=3

Not exactly what I meant. A single thread is not so good as all sorts of issues get lumped onto it. A single forum would be better because then each individual issue could have its own thread, thus making it easier to discuss individual issues.

eulogy098

08-11-2010, 12:03 PM

This thread is so absurd it spins my head.

So many responses to the very insignificant ladder bugs and zero responses to any of the more important ones. Like, you know THE SUULOMADES TOD CHEST MENTIONED IN THE OP or any of the broken game mechanics like WARFORGED GREAT WEAPON APTITUDE ((http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=264963)) or totally broken since day 1 capstones ((barbarian)0 effect to glancing blows).

There are tons of threads on this stuff with extreme levels of testing and details, and they all go totally unanswered. There are countless bug reports done on it, and still not even a "we know about it, keep testing it and reporting". Mention a stupid ladder that is easily bypassed by pressing "W" twice, and these guys jump all over it like it's their prom date.

This is the single biggest problem with DDO