Why Enfeebling of Weakening

[Teran]

So I'm looking at The Handwrap Collection thread, and noticing that Enfeebling of Weakening is on most people's lists.

I'm wondering why.

I understand that folks like them against beholders, but frankly I just sneak / run up to a beholder and stun them = dead beholder. On the rare instance where one saves, I Touch of Death them (I know that light monks don't have this fallback).

Is it popular for folks who (shudder) don't stun or who have low stun DCs? Is this for Epics, which I haven't gotten to yet, where perhaps even post the "lowering the saves" update beholder saves are too high to stun?

Or are there some other mobs that you're using Enfeebling of Weakening for?

[Thought I'd avoid randomizing The Handwrap Collection thread and create a new thread.]


Thanks,
Teran

[AyumiAmakusa]

Weakening of Enfeebling and Wounding of Puncturing both deal the same stat damage (Str and Con respectively) on every dice roll. And you get more from a critical hit. Very useful.

EDIT: Weakening of Enfeebling not Enfeebling of Weakening.

[Visty]

less str means less tohit and less incoming damage

[Quijonsith]

They are most useful for me on living spells, which I don't believe can be stunned but they can have a stat lowered to zero such as strength. At that point the living spell can't cast any spells and are in auto crit and an easy kill.

Weakening of enfeebling is also good for monks who don't take sunning fist/blow or have low DCs and find it less effective.

They are great for beholders, but like you I just run up and stun them.

As for epics: weakening is not effective at all because epic mobs are highly resistant to stat damage.

[Dark-Star]

Every two points of strength damage you do to a mob gives you and the party +1 AC and +1 dr/-. At zero strength (or any stat) every hit is an auto crit and casters can no longer cast.

[biggin]

So I don't look like an a**clown for making a heavy pick user.

[DToNE]

Well, consider the fact you already swing 200mph as monk and crit quite often, their stats are going to wilt away like mad. Takes a full 2 seconds for a monster to go from 35 Str to 0 with Monk's attack speed, and this proves to be especially useful if you Icy Burst the Handwraps.

[Weeday]

Personally, I like Weakening of Pure Good because I like that little extra bit of damage and I only use those wraps on beholders, so it's not really a necessity to have the Weakening part for me. But, the previous posters have explained it thoroughly enough.

[Teran]

Thanks for the feedback.

Useful data on Living Spells. Reading more about them, it seems like there are concerns around stat damage not being that effective anymore at keeping Living Spells out of the fight. It sounds like you're just trying to kill them though, and I can see the usefulness here.

Bummer about stat damage being resisted in Epic.

Regarding comments around how quickly stat damage helps kill things (presumably over and above stunning, given that was the context of the post): I'd appreciate if folks could elaborate on which mobs and what quest, as I'll speculate that folks are referring to either unstunnable mobs or mobs which are increadibly difficult to stun. Both of which would be useful to know about.

Obviously stunned mobs don't attack and are automatically auto-crit as well; using stat damage to achieve this same result (vs. just stunning them) seems less efficient.

Edit: I think there's probably a basic formula where if mob's chance of saving vs. stun is > X, the mob has < Y strength and the mob will survive more than Z crits, then you're better off with WoE. I just haven't seen the mobs yet that cause this equation to favor WoE (other than Living Spells based on Quijonsith's feedback).

[Dylos_Moon]

Obviously stunned mobs don't attack and are automatically auto-crit as well; using stat damage to achieve this same result (vs. just stunning them) seems less efficient.

The thing is, if your DC is high enough without Stunning +10, you can stun and use Weakening/Enfeebling at the same time, if the mob isn't dead after your stun, it will still be auto crit.

[Arel]

Personally, I don't use/have stat damage wraps, but I think it's because the stat damage causes an effective permanent stun until dead as long as you keep hitting them. With SB or SF, there's the chance that it'll not go off (not a problem I've run into as a WIS monk with +10 wraps, but meh) or that the mob won't be dead by the time the stun wears off (only time so far I've run into this are the Eladrin in Running with the Devils, and that may have been due to the groups I was in; most things die pretty quick with 2-3 melee hitting them while stunned).

The only time stat damagers win out are against non-stunnable mobs: undead, constructs, and red-named bosses. Undead I'd rather pull out disruption or Holy of PG, and constructs would be smiting if I can't beat them down / ToD them fast otherwise. That leaves Red-named bosses, who are resistant to the effects (I think it's 10 points total per stat). It can bring down their damage, but you'd be doing less in the process due to no elemental/alignment effects. Possibly useful if the mob you're facing has resistances, but not enough to warrant going out and searching for a set of wraps, IMO.

[Dylos_Moon]

The only time stat damagers win out are against non-stunnable mobs: undead, constructs

Undead and Constructs are immune to stat damage. Except Warforged.

[Arctigis]

I have +4 WoE handwraps but I rarely use them. I rarely change out of my maladroit of stunning + 10. Stunning
fist (even on a str build) is just too good. I even use maladroit on a lot of unfortified red named to lower their
reflex save - better chance of landing unbalancing strike and adding in the Ninja Spy sneak attack damage.
WoE was awesome before mobs regenerated stat damage (living spells was a great example).

[rodallec]

i have a set of wraps: weakening on stunning + 10
hunt these so if mob survives your stunning blow duration its usually still an incapped mob
but usually i just use thundering, icy burst, force critical of stunning +10 with a holyburst ring

just realised icy burst is over again and i didnt find any forceburst of stunning +10 :(
didnt buy any "icy burst kits" either :( :(