Self sufficiency vs. damage output

[gott_ist_tot]

It seems to me, in general, self sufficiency and ability to dish out damage are on opposite sides of a slider. The more you push for self sufficiency, the less damage you are able to do and vice versa.

A character pushing for usable AC will always diminish it's DPS somehow. The moment 20fvs to be splits to 2ftr/18fvs to get haste boost, 2 feats and +1str, it loses 10-15 DR.

The idea I'm trying to wrap my head around is whether a party of self-sufficient characters would fare better than a group of complementing characters, not very good at soloing/self sufficiency. So, max DPS-no AC kensais and barbs with some healers/buffers/nukers and possibly a rogue and bard, or a party full of 2/18 human khopesh ftr/fvs?

The conventional wisdom tells me a machine built of pieces perfectly performing one task is usually superior to ultimate kitchen utensils (apologies to WFs). But then again... every system can be 'exploited' (not in literal sense, more in the exploiter build sense). And DDO classes seem to be rich on class-defining properties in early levels. With only 2 levels of rogue you can have evasion, some sneak attack, full UMD and rogue skills. Recently I've been thinking (blasphemy, I know) splashing 1 level of wziard can be a nice perk on some AC builds if only for extended shield.

I know there can be no definite asnswer, as the knowledge I'm seeking isn't 'hard'. Can't be totally measured and expressed by numbers, because of plethora of factors we'd have to consider. And would easily boggle math PhD's mind. So I'm more interested in opinions, if you have any to share.


P.S. There are of course some exceptions, where a maximum self-sufficiency build can dish out respectable damage circumstantially. Although for BBs - the circumstances are 80% of the quests. But - then there are raid bosses.

[Quikster]

I prefer self sufficiency to total min/max. However I think both are fine. The big thing one must watch in self sufficiency is that they are still able to fulfill their main role. If your main role is dps, make sure you can still fill that etc. The cool thing in this game is role isnt 100% limited to class. Several classes can be built for different roles in a group to a large extent.

[biggin]

I think a perfectly complimented party of min/maxers will outweigh a group of self-sufficient toons IF they are played by the same 6 people.

[TigrisMorte]

"a machine built of pieces perfectly performing one task is usually superior to ultimate kitchen utensils"
In the best of runs the "perfect machine" finishes a few moments quicker than the "ultimate utensils".
But if anything goes wrong, "one trick pony" becomes DJ DING! master of the wipe.
Where as the "does not need babysitter" recovers and completes.

"ultimate kitchen utensils", wait, did you just call me a tool?

[krud]

The perfectly complementing machine works well in groups/guilds that frequently (exclusively) run together, or with people who are very familiar with the quest. Self-sufficient builds are better suited for the unknown pug or unfamiliar quest.

[Phidius]

It's my opinion that people who chose the path of the perfectly balanced team have traded a great deal of fun for smoother completions.

[Xatasha]

In an MMO your min/max players will win, Pen and paper Self sufficiency wins with good DMs.

The reason is a computer will never realize that a character is a min/max but a human DM at times will focus on the Min part of that min/max character and show the player the weakness of min/max.

[Hokonoso]

I think a perfectly complimented party of min/maxers will outweigh a group of self-sufficient toons IF they are played by the same 6 people.

this, you can only compare apples to apples, it has to be the same 6 ppl to make a difference.

[Khanyth]

Those who are not self sufficient, group with others who make up for those areas in which that player is not sufficient enough.

IE: a barb groups with a cleric and a wizard

A lack of self sufficiency, imho, is the backbone to grouping, and also, the backbone of DDO.

[biggin]

Those who are not self sufficient, group with others who make up for those areas in which that player is not sufficient enough.

IE: a barb groups with a cleric and a wizard

A lack of self sufficiency, imho, is the backbone to grouping, and also, the backbone of DDO.

+1 for your sig

[Khanyth]

+1 for your sig

Thanks.... to be honest with you, I thought I'd get in trouble for it and get a PM telling me to change it by now

[AStormbringer]

Thanks.... to be honest with you, I thought I'd get in trouble for it and get a PM telling me to change it by now

And a +1 to your wife for actually knowing what a "forum avatar" is.

[Quikster]

In an MMO your min/max players will win, Pen and paper Self sufficiency wins with good DMs.

The reason is a computer will never realize that a character is a min/max but a human DM at times will focus on the Min part of that min/max character and show the player the weakness of min/max.

What exactly do they win?

[Xatasha]

What exactly do they win?


Nice shiny loot, raid spots and cookie cutter builds.

[FluffyCalico]

The only reason this question exists is because DDO is way easier than it should be allowing for very poorly selected groups and even solos to do max level GROUP quests. If the game were not so dumbed down you would NEED a well complimenting party with toons designed to fill a roll. Sadly the game is so nerfed you can pretty much walk in with anything and a clue and be ok on N/H/E

[biggin]

What exactly do they win?

the internets

[Quikster]

Nice shiny loot, raid spots and cookie cutter builds.

Meh self sufficient builds get loot and raid spots as well.

[moops]

I see LFMS sit empty for hours--seriously--looking for the perfect complimentary group--I see failed TODS putting an LFM up over and over with their perfect group makes ups--I take self sufficient people and usually get so many people hitting my LFM I Cant even sends the tells to the people I can not accept--and we finish.

[Gremmlynn]

The only reason this question exists is because DDO is way easier than it should be allowing for very poorly selected groups and even solos to do max level GROUP quests. If the game were not so dumbed down you would NEED a well complimenting party with toons designed to fill a roll. Sadly the game is so nerfed you can pretty much walk in with anything and a clue and be ok on N/H/ETrue in theory, but games like that tend to go belly up as most players don't like standing around waiting for those well complimenting parties to form.

I'm of the opinion that challenging MMOs simply aren't economically viable to make. Even hardcore type servers of mainstream games tend to discourage more potential customers that they attract. People just don't like to admit that they are not good enough to hack it and blame the game for their own shortcomings as they uninstall it.

[FluffyCalico]

True in theory, but games like that tend to go belly up as most players don't like standing around waiting for those well complimenting parties to form.

.

Yeah they form something called guilds. And raid times and poof perfect group every Thursday at 630PM. Or whenever they want to raid.

[Quarterling]

My thoughts:

People would prefer DPS over self sufficiency in most groups because there's usually a healer anyways. Take for example, The Shroud. You always see "DPS needed", not "survivable character needed".

Does this mean DPS characters are always better than ones that can survive on their own and pump their AC to exceedingly high limits? That depends how they are made. A pure AC monk for example, would make a great soloist if done right. However, soloing really isn't everyone's cuppa tea; just personal preference.

[theb]

I'm of the opinion that challenging MMOs simply aren't economically viable to make. Even hardcore type servers of mainstream games tend to discourage more potential customers that they attract. People just don't like to admit that they are not good enough to hack it and blame the game for their own shortcomings as they uninstall it.

There's no reason for there not to be multiple difficulties in one campaign. We have c/n/h/e/E, we have Amrath (minus the Weapon's Shipment) and we have IQ, Redfang and Kobold Assault, The Swiped Signet and An Explosive Situation, Hiding in Plain Sight and The Spawn of Whisperdom, Chains of Flame and Mired in Kobolds.

For those of you too l33t 4 sk00l I just juxtaposed hard quests and easy quests of the same level. Feel free to make fools of yourselves by saying that a pair of quests I listed are equally easy for you.

[Quikster]

There is a balance to be had. DDO's encounters are for the most part extremely short. It is more than possible to be self sufficient and still have enough dps to contribute.

[JasonJi72]

I prefer to make my characters self-sufficient, while min/maxing to perform my role. Living characters always out dps the dead ones.

[BlackSteel]

self sufficiency can be attained 3 ways:

1) build: this is typically class features revolving around healing/repairing
2) umd/gold: potions and scrolls oh my! if you have the wallet you can do it. once again this is dependent on class, but to a lesser degree can simply be attained with attribute and skill points even while cross classed
3) gear: its a grind, and not something you'll get or find at the minimum level to use while leveling up. but a great majority of buffs, status cures, and even healing can be attained on your equipment; via clickies or permanent buffs.

even my barbarian had multiple ways of healing up his 900 odd hitpoints by himself. The expensive way involved drinking silver flame potions. The completely gold free way involved shield blocking with the hound shield and the dq bracers/con op, clickies of greater restoration solved any possible negative levels.

4) hirelings: only appropriate for solo/short man groups, but with dungeon scaling and these guys the game is laughabley easy even for the squishiest character.

[K_0tiC]

Recently I've been thinking (blasphemy, I know) splashing 1 level of wziard can be a nice perk on some AC builds if only for extended shield.



If you can afford the skill points for umd shield 10 wands are pretty easy to come across in chests/on the ah, anyone who pushes for any type of ac will genrally try to allow for shield wand useage for the ac as well as safety from mm/force missles etc. Id rather eat a +2int tome or give up 1 base point for int and eat a +1int vs drop a level of (whatever class here) losing bab/skills/enhancements/capstone just to cast the shield spell. If this isnt a option hand the wand to a caster when you know you need the ac for tanking and ask them to wand whip you with it as required.

[shablala]

it's My Opinion That People Who Chose The Path Of The Perfectly Balanced Team Have Traded A Great Deal Of Fun For Smoother Completions.

+1

[Gremmlynn]

Yeah they form something called guilds. And raid times and poof perfect group every Thursday at 630PM. Or whenever they want to raid.Cool. So would you be willing to invest a few years and a few million bucks developing this game that not only has to hold the interest of a "better skilled" class of gamers, but is only really playable by static groups?

Personally, I see to many problems to take that kind of risk. First the need to attract those players both interested and capable of handling that level of challenge. Finding a way to keep them playing long enough to form into those guilds. Replacing those who leave for whatever reason.

IMO just finding enough players interested in both the game as a concept and it's level of challenge would be more than I'd be willing to risk that kind of investment on.

[phalaeo]

I prefer self sufficiency to total min/max. However I think both are fine. The big thing one must watch in self sufficiency is that they are still able to fulfill their main role. If your main role is dps, make sure you can still fill that etc. The cool thing in this game is role isnt 100% limited to class. Several classes can be built for different roles in a group to a large extent.

Depends on what you personally define self-sufficiency, but in general, I agree.

I'm like a parrot on the forums, but I love my Clonk- to me, self sufficiency means survivability and my survivability is much greater than when I was a pure Cleric.

Also depends on what you consider min-maxxing. Some people consider my build to be a "lesser" Cleric because they have crit lines maxxed to top tier and crit Heal for 1,600 HP. I think my 1,200 average crit Heal is just fine, thank you. Same with the Aura- mine hits for 18 compared to the 22 I've been hit with from pure Clerics. The difference is that my saves, balance and HP allow me to stand in combat, where the melees can gain the most benefit.

To answer the OP's question....
I can't.

I've seen parties of total maxxed out builds and perfect "group balancing" fail and I've seen unorthodox groups win flawlessly.

I have to say that I think the most important (or one of the top) factors in the success of a group is how well the group works together and perhaps neither of the options you have mentioned above. ;)

[Homestarfan]

DPSers die and run the team cleric a deficit for their adventure. Survivalists make sure they stay in the black, so I'd say they're the better ones.

[FluffyCalico]

DPSers die and run the team cleric a deficit for their adventure. Survivalists make sure they stay in the black, so I'd say they're the better ones.

You are confusing builds with good/bad players.

[Gremmlynn]

There's no reason for there not to be multiple difficulties in one campaign. We have c/n/h/e/E, we have Amrath (minus the Weapon's Shipment) and we have IQ, Redfang and Kobold Assault, The Swiped Signet and An Explosive Situation, Hiding in Plain Sight and The Spawn of Whisperdom, Chains of Flame and Mired in Kobolds.

For those of you too l33t 4 sk00l I just juxtaposed hard quests and easy quests of the same level. Feel free to make fools of yourselves by saying that a pair of quests I listed are equally easy for you.So, which of those needs a well composed party of above average skilled players to complete.

Hell, even hard/elite are watered down because of how the favor system is tied into difficulty level as well as to allow as many players as possible the ability to enjoyably rerun content as many times as possible. Also, it's generally bad for business to even infer that ones customers just aren't good enough for your product. So elite is set up to be mildly difficult for the average pug and hard is just less easy than normal.

[kitsune_ko]

Like Darksteel said with minor modification: Clickies, potions and scrolls oh my!

I always build chars for self-sufficiency, though not to the point where DPS suffers drastically. I prefer a well rounded char fully capable of pulling a rabbit out of their hat when runs go horribly, horribly wrong. And eventually it does happen to everyone.

Having some level of self healing and being able to cast scrolls/wands (Cure, Ressurect and Teleport are exceptionally useful) is a wonderful thing for any player to be able to do.

There have been a more then a few times where in a run, the party cleric gets ganked and being able to get them up and running again or being able to grab stones and beating a hasty retreat to the nearest shrine is a wonderful thing, far better then starting the run over again.

Personally I prefer being able to do a bit of everything well, then being excellent at one thing and hoping others can compensate for what I am lacking. But then I solo and PUG a lot, so self-sufficiency is an excellent survival trait to have.


Kit.

[FluffyCalico]

So elite is set up to be mildly difficult for the average pug and hard is just less easy than normal.

Causal is for sad builds, normal should be solo causal and elite should move down to normal. There is a reason why before the great xp nerf that people were doing level 8 quests on elite IE level 10 when they were 5-6. And doing level 13-14 GH quests at level 8. Its because the quests are so friggin easy at level its not even funny.

[shablala]

My thoughts:

People would prefer DPS over self sufficiency in most groups because there's usually a healer anyways. Take for example, The Shroud. You always see "DPS needed", not "survivable character needed".

Does this mean DPS characters are always better than ones that can survive on their own and pump their AC to exceedingly high limits? That depends how they are made. A pure AC monk for example, would make a great soloist if done right. However, soloing really isn't everyone's cuppa tea; just personal preference.

Self Sufficient goes WAY beyond Soloing. Also I dont know of any melee self sufficient build that will NOT refer to itself ad a DPS build. Harry will go down whether you have 500+ Max dps toons beating on him, or the 400+ "self sufficient" DPS toons.

The ideal is to create a self sufficient toon (to level up and such) that only requires a LR to make it a Focused role toon for when you want to do Epics and such.

[DrNuegebauer]

If you wanted to make it an equation, you could propose that 5 x 100% DPS toons + 1 'healer' to keep them going would output 500% DPS.

So for a group of 6 self-sufficient toons to do the same they would need to put out 83% DPS (as compared to the '100% max DPSer).

There's a lot more variables to factor in there - but it's a start.

[TigrisMorte]

" I do a ton of dmg though if I could have stayed alive it wouldn't have been an issue.
can I release?"

[MeliCat]

It's a wonder my first charcter, a barb, ever got to 17 without being guilded and having very little plat.

I think I mostly agree with you OP. Except I have seen devasting casters pretty much solo everything and the rest following along.

I love those big numbers though. And on end bosses or epics those big smacks are the best. Bother the of the team that keeps me alive! :P

[Meetch1972]

If you wanted to make it an equation, you could propose that 5 x 100% DPS toons + 1 'healer' to keep them going would output 500% DPS.

So for a group of 6 self-sufficient toons to do the same they would need to put out 83% DPS (as compared to the '100% max DPSer).

There's a lot more variables to factor in there - but it's a start.

This. I've run in the 6 man group in IQ without a healer - rough, but survivable due to the group's power to take down the more troublesome mobs fast. As long as all characters both do what they're best at and work as a team, the gestalt can be awesome. A group of self-sufficients could split up to some degree and accomplish objectives slower but in parallel, but a well balanced group of near min/max will have the skills needed to do the hard things when they're required. The random PUG taking the first 5 who hit the LFM is more interesting to play as long as everyone has a clue and are willing to work together. Sometimes however, you just NEED that trap disabled on elite when the chance of party wipe is high (or you need that cleric to pass on the rez which they pick up on the other side of the trap). It goes on...

Sometimes it's the little things like the blaster who knows the boss is immune to their insta-kill spells buffing tanks and taking care of trash mobs, saving the other party members hit points and the healer SP, leaving the boss for the tanks to DPS, or conversely letting the tanks chew through the ordinary trash and saving the insta-kills for the 2 casters hiding and named up the back.

[ragwa1]

I don't know what you are talking about. All of my self Sufficiant toons out dps every melee min/max I come across.

I was very taken-aback by the op.

Reason number one: Monks/Monk splashes. Some of the better dps in the game and completely self sufficiant.
Who'd a thunk it?

Anything with a rogue splash for UMD reasons... Self explainatory.

TWF Pallys smiting/procing doublestrike smites. Pally/monk splashes with ToD. Both very high damage and considered to be the best situational damagers, also extreamly self sufficiant due to self heals/buffs and UMD.

WF Wizzys/scorcs...

Do I even need to go on?

[FluffyCalico]

Cool. So would you be willing to invest a few years and a few million bucks developing this game that not only has to hold the interest of a "better skilled" class of gamers, but is only really playable by static groups?

Personally, I see to many problems to take that kind of risk. First the need to attract those players both interested and capable of handling that level of challenge. Finding a way to keep them playing long enough to form into those guilds. Replacing those who leave for whatever reason.

.

You mean like WOW the first couple years for end game raids before they nerfed it into kiddie world? And Yes I think it was worth the investment as WOW did not exactly die off now did it.

And to answer your question DDO fixed that. Normal for unskilled or unstatic and elite to challenge the skilled static groups. Only they went off kilter and made normal for clueless and elite for average people and have nothing for static skilled groups to be challenged by.

[khaldan]

You mean like WOW the first couple years for end game raids before they nerfed it into kiddie world? And Yes I think it was worth the investment as WOW did not exactly die off now did it.

And to answer your question DDO fixed that. Normal for unskilled or unstatic and elite to challenge the skilled static groups. Only they went off kilter and made normal for clueless and elite for average people and have nothing for static skilled groups to be challenged by.

People pugged out the first few raids of both vannila WoW and TBC not long after they came out. Admittedly, not much past t1 and t4 got done(vael the guild killer would just annihilate PuGs), but hey.

[FluffyCalico]

People pugged out the first few raids of both vannila WoW and TBC not long after they came out. Admittedly, not much past t1 and t4 got done(vael the guild killer would just annihilate PuGs), but hey.

Noone puged BWL for the first year it was out (T2). In fact only 1-2 guilds per server per side were even able to do it reliably the first year it came out. The simple fact you put -T4 shows you are talking about years after the super keddie nerf I was talking about that removed the challenge.

[twizznach]

lol how much less dps will a 18 barb/2rogue have vs 20 barb? Or a 20 ranger vs exploiter.. There are many examples where sacrificing hardly noticible dps can give you the ability to survive most things that you normaly wouldnt and continue to dps. Living dps is always more dps than a dead one. Elite ToD 20 barb gets tossed all over the lava and spikes and dies 9 times out of 10 and 18/2 barb rogue hits uncany dodge and manages not to eat every spike on the wall he flew into... My point is that true art of min maxing is about keeping your dps or w/e ability your build is made for while managing to acquire survivability and general flexibility as far what you can do to benefit your party.

[Roman]

Survivability > min/max DPS

DPS is great, but there is a point of diminishing returns, where the few extra pts of dps you might pickup are just not worth whats being given up for it.

[Xyfiel]

There are times when if I was more min/max and less versatile we would have completed faster or completed at all, other times I have saved a raid from versatility. Both have merits and depend greatly on who you play with. I like versatility, I like being able to change roles in a quest depending on what else we have. Some people like min/max and having all types of characters and swapping as needed. As long as it is still fun in the end, don't really care, and the most fun comes when things don't go as planned.

[khaldan]

Noone puged BWL for the first year it was out (T2). In fact only 1-2 guilds per server per side were even able to do it reliably the first year it came out. The simple fact you put -T4 shows you are talking about years after the super keddie nerf I was talking about that removed the challenge.

T1 was done during vanilla. T4 was pugged during TBC. So sorry that wasn't clear.

And practically all the difficulty of doing BWL was getting the cloaks and doing vael. After that, it was fairly easy til chrom.

[Krag]

Right tool for the right job.
Self-sufficient toons are easier to level. Relying on puggers and hirelings is never a good idea.
Endgame raids on the other hand do not demand self-sufficiency. All that matter is hp and dps.

[Azuarc]

T1 was done during vanilla. T4 was pugged during TBC. So sorry that wasn't clear.

And practically all the difficulty of doing BWL was getting the cloaks and doing vael. After that, it was fairly easy til chrom.

Assuming you had the fire resist. Broodlord wasn't bad, but the drakes weren't exactly fun.


On a personal level, philosophically, I'll take self-sufficiency or multi-capability over purist min/max any day. DPS is a dirty word (well, acronym) to me after my legacy of trying to calculate how to enhance the performance of my WoW hunter -- I would do lots of work and spreadsheeting for others, and then ultimately not even use my own advice since I saw my character's worth as more than a single variable. Unfortunately, far too many players do see their character as a single variable, and only focus on damage output. The problem is much more rampant in the "traditional" MMOs that focus on the healer+tank+DPS paradigm, so you see it more in EQ or WoW than you would here. However, there are certain aspects of the class design that lead to min/max-ing of various sorts -- careful selection of multiclass levels, ditching armor in favor of monk levels with wisdom, a character's weapon selection...there's lot of different aspects in which players optimize their characters in this game that go beyond what I would think would feel natural for playing a game of tabletop. My rogue/lasher is very confused by this behavior...

[Xatasha]

Meh self sufficient builds get loot and raid spots as well.


Yes but most high end hardcore raid guilds look for the cookie cut builds, they may have a few players with odd builds but its mostly min/max.

Thankfully you don't need to be in a hardcore guild to experience endgame but if you want all your shinnies quick then you build a character they want.

[gott_ist_tot]

Yes but most high end hardcore raid guilds look for the cookie cut builds, they may have a few players with odd builds but its mostly min/max.

Thankfully you don't need to be in a hardcore guild to experience endgame but if you want all your shinnies quick then you build a character they want.

Hardcore guild filled with cookie cutters seems like a group of plat farmers to me ;) I'd rather be in a one where people actually work on new builds.

Because builds are what gets me going here. As far as my own toons go, I usually focus o maximum self-sufficiency, and then try to cram as much damage dealing capabilities on top of it as possible.

I think some of the problems mentionad are a problem without solution. Look at clerics and FvS solo power. A class designed to keep 6/12 people up, can apply this power to only one - itself, has arguably the best damaging spell in the game (blade barrier) and can without much problems be made to melee with best weapon in the game - khopesh.

Anyway, thank everyone for input, appreciated much, keep posting ;)

[Archer001]

Pale masters can be fairly self sufficient via extended/heightened/empowered/maximised death aura and lesser death aura in lich/wraith form, throw in a wand of false life (Xth) you can take almost all your dps while preserving spell points from the two necrotic abilities, switching to spell/wand damage when up against tough monsters or undead.

Of course the aura is to be avoided when up against the undead, at that point the lich for the temp-hp chance and the shroud of the abbot (even if you save vs heal it in effect increases you damage reduction and can turn damage into healing) if you have it are your friend.

[Kriogen]

To make things short, this is how it is in MMOs:

1. Perfect min/maxed char needs others. Because of this, it has to wait for "healer".

2. Perfect min/max characters are very vulnerable to nerfs. Just when you think you did it, you get hit by a nerfbat.

Usually I go with 90/50 rule. That "top" 10% is so **** expensive, you can buy 50% of some other class/build functionality. I don't have "perfect" chars, but can do the job. I never wait for healer and my builds don't get totally destroyed by nerfs.

[Diyon]

Running those quests way under level on elite might be all fine and good for people with well built well geared characters but hardly nice for new players.

Okay, now I'm not saying that I don't like the occasional smooth and easy quest run or that I don't think that they should make some more challenging quests, but go ahead and make the quests challenging. Purposefully don't run a group with the perfect combination, bring a group that's going to be more challenged. Or run a character that is less than optimal but is fun, to make things harder. Or self apply some restrictions to make it harder. Yes so maybe everything is too easy for a super optimal group that is well geared with uber stuff, if you think that's too easy, just don't do run quests in that format. It would be nice if there were more challenging stuff like that but if you are wanting to run some challenging stuff now that's very easy to do and you only have yourself to blame.

[Zenako]

Its also largely the person behind the keyboard that matters more than the build itself in most situations. That being said, you are a bit more likely to find a knowledgeable gaming veteran behind a well built character, pure min/max or versatile. Most versatile characters also are more gear dependant so they are harder to pull off for a new player lacking that gear.

Thus you are more likely to see a new player with a min/max build scrounged from the forums or from other sources, since they are often cheaper and easier to build and in general to play. Me THrud the Barbarian, Me swing bug Axe at Not Nale...duh!. Can be very effective, and easy to be decent at playing.

So when you are comparing experiences, there is a large bias inherent in the sample space of the general population. Some of the most awesome DPS monsters I have played with would have a 10 second half-life without a full bore medic in the group. Now I personally go for the versatile surviveable route, since most of my guys happily solo or play with groups and that gives me a lot of gaming flexibility.

[PopeJual]

In an MMO your min/max players will win, Pen and paper Self sufficiency wins with good DMs.

The reason is a computer will never realize that a character is a min/max but a human DM at times will focus on the Min part of that min/max character and show the player the weakness of min/max.


That's not what the "min" in min/max refers to. Min/max is an effort to minimise your weaknesses while maximising your strengths.

In the process, you might create an Achilies heel, but that's a problem with your process, not with your objective.


The real difference between Pen & Paper D&D and DDO is that in Pen & Paper, the DM can exploit known player/PC weaknesses because the DM actually knows what the player/PC weaknesses are. In DDO, the players can exploit the AI/quest requirements' weaknesses because the players know what the game's weaknesses are.

[Lorz]

In an MMO your min/max players will win, Pen and paper Self sufficiency wins with good DMs.

The reason is a computer will never realize that a character is a min/max but a human DM at times will focus on the Min part of that min/max character and show the player the weakness of min/max.

So when your running with no healer at all...how's that work out for ya. If you are not alive at the end it doesn't matter how much dps you put out.

[PopeJual]

So when your running with no healer at all...how's that work out for ya. If you are not alive at the end it doesn't matter how much dps you put out.

It works just fine for me. I can wand whip an entire party if they are decent and don't sprint ahead too fast.

Oh, were you assuming that I build my characters for DPS only and that I neglect survivability? I *like* staying alive during quests. When I min/max, "not dying" is part of what I try to max and "dying" is part of what I try to min.

Edit: I didn't look carefully enough. You were quoting Xtasha and not my reply to Xtasha. My bad.

[theb]

Thus you are more likely to see a new player with a min/max build scrounged from the forums or from other sources, since they are often cheaper and easier to build and in general to play.

Not true. Not even remotely true. New players are out playing a rogue built to only do traps, or going for a high wisdom low constitution pure AC paladin as their first character (all level ups into charisma, of course), or multiclassing a paladin with sorcerer, or crossing wizard with ranger, fighter, monk, or-may the gods of Eberron help us all-cleric. The very few smart enough to read the forums don't necessarily follow the build advice. Those that do are running around without fortification. Those that know to wear fortification are pew pewing everything-and not just the rangers, who can't be bothered to carry around sticks to wave at mobs after they run out of ammo. Clerics and wizards often aspire to be archers, or even arbalists with great crossbows.

You are confusing what new players should do with what they actually do.

[Phidius]

... or multiclassing a paladin with sorcerer, or crossing wizard with ranger, fighter, monk...

You say that like it's a bad thing

[Zenako]

Not true. Not even remotely true. New players are out playing a rogue built to only do traps, or going for a high wisdom low constitution pure AC paladin as their first character (all level ups into charisma, of course), or multiclassing a paladin with sorcerer, or crossing wizard with ranger, fighter, monk, or-may the gods of Eberron help us all-cleric. The very few smart enough to read the forums don't necessarily follow the build advice. Those that do are running around without fortification. Those that know to wear fortification are pew pewing everything-and not just the rangers, who can't be bothered to carry around sticks to wave at mobs after they run out of ammo. Clerics and wizards often aspire to be archers, or even arbalists with great crossbows.

You are confusing what new players should do with what they actually do.

The crux of our differences is in how you percieve the term min/max and I perceive and was using the term min/max. I am considering it in this context to be anyone who builds a character to maximize one aspect of the character at the expense of the other parts of the build, just like many of your examples.

I think you are looking at a more nuanced version of the term where the player maximizes their ability while suffering a minimum of downsides to the build. In the past it was often used by many to refer to those classic 18 STR, 3 INT barbarian builds that some would play in D&D. IF the game or DM imposes no gameplay penalty on the 3 INT, then why not.

In DDO it is very easy to build a very unbalanced toon which excels at something and basically blows chunks at most other tasks. That stems from a player perception that certain roles are vital (they're not) to quest success, and that the best way to fulfill those roles is to specialize (like in some other games perhaps), but again that is a false premise.

[SINIBYTE]

It seems to me, in general, self sufficiency and ability to dish out damage are on opposite sides of a slider. The more you push for self sufficiency, the less damage you are able to do and vice versa.

A character pushing for usable AC will always diminish it's DPS somehow. The moment 20fvs to be splits to 2ftr/18fvs to get haste boost, 2 feats and +1str, it loses 10-15 DR.

The idea I'm trying to wrap my head around is whether a party of self-sufficient characters would fare better than a group of complementing characters, not very good at soloing/self sufficiency. So, max DPS-no AC kensais and barbs with some healers/buffers/nukers and possibly a rogue and bard, or a party full of 2/18 human khopesh ftr/fvs?

The conventional wisdom tells me a machine built of pieces perfectly performing one task is usually superior to ultimate kitchen utensils (apologies to WFs). But then again... every system can be 'exploited' (not in literal sense, more in the exploiter build sense). And DDO classes seem to be rich on class-defining properties in early levels. With only 2 levels of rogue you can have evasion, some sneak attack, full UMD and rogue skills. Recently I've been thinking (blasphemy, I know) splashing 1 level of wziard can be a nice perk on some AC builds if only for extended shield.

I know there can be no definite asnswer, as the knowledge I'm seeking isn't 'hard'. Can't be totally measured and expressed by numbers, because of plethora of factors we'd have to consider. And would easily boggle math PhD's mind. So I'm more interested in opinions, if you have any to share.


P.S. There are of course some exceptions, where a maximum self-sufficiency build can dish out respectable damage circumstantially. Although for BBs - the circumstances are 80% of the quests. But - then there are raid bosses.

I think we ALL make sacrifices. Noone starts with 8 CON (hopefully), so we all sacrifice a little bit of our ability to maintain some surivivabilty. That's just the most extreme example I could think of.

I'm sure there are guys out there (I've done it in the past), that min/mix their DPS and HP survivability, as in "I can maintain 400 DPS for 7 minutes before I die with X stats", or "I can maintain 480 DPS before I die for 4.5 minutes X stats".

[Razcar]

What exactly do they win?
The power and the glory till their kingdom comes?