new monk docent question

[rabrams99]

I am going to TR a fighter to make my warforged monk. I am looking to go strength build.
My question is why does noone talk about the docent of quickening being an end game docent choice?
1) Does the 10% alacrity not work well with a monk dps build? Does it make you unballanced?
2) Does it not stack with wind stance? (although I am leaning toward no crane or windstance at this moment but can change the shinto/oremi out to try in both wind and fire stance)

[Tin_Dragon]

I am doing a STR build monk atm, I plan on using DoQ at end game, I also use DoQ end game on my tempest Barb too. I see a difference, even after the TWF nerf in speed of attacks.

Till I can make a dragontouched with Alacrity 10%+, I dont see why not.

And also, can't wait for Epic DoQ... one can only hope for +25%... so I dont have to keep farming for 10 pair of madstone boots....

[Anthios888]

I am going to TR a fighter to make my warforged monk. I am looking to go strength build.
My question is why does noone talk about the docent of quickening being an end game docent choice?
1) Does the 10% alacrity not work well with a monk dps build? Does it make you unballanced?
2) Does it not stack with wind stance? (although I am leaning toward no crane or windstance at this moment but can change the shinto/oremi out to try in both wind and fire stance)

It's a bad choice because:

1. You don't need striding.
2. Melee and ranged alacrity does not stack with wind stance's enhancement bonus. Likewise, it does not stack with haste.
3. Wind stance is really uber, just trust me. Doublestrikes are way more of a DPS increase than +2 damage from fire stance, because it will affect every part of your attack - base damage, holy burst ring, shocking burst ring, greater bane/weighted, force ritual, weapon affects, sneak attacks, whateva.

The popularity of Docent of Quickening comes for some characters that would like to rely less on external hastes. The 10% enhancement bonus to speed from DoQ is the same type of bonus that haste (15%) and Ultimate Wind Stance (15%) provide. Some characters will switch to it while tanking Tower of Despair, for example, so they can still have a decent swing speed without needing to take off their boots to rehaste.

[Anthios888]

And also, can't wait for Epic DoQ... one can only hope for +25%... so I dont have to keep farming for 10 pair of madstone boots....

Madstone boots no longer give a greater enhancement bonus to attack speed than haste or ultimate wind stance.

[rabrams99]

oh wow the docent doesnt stack with haste???? oh then it is ****...thank you very much for clarifying this, i would have bought one and been ****ed.

The reason I am hearing of going fire is not only for the damage but the ki generation. I read that you can keep all your attacks up...in fact here is the quote:

"Fire Stance IV = 110 KI from hits, 60 or so Ki from crits per minute..
Add Crane to that, and you wont need any more Ki for your attacks...

Oremi's =
110 (give or take) Ki per minute. (1/2 what is needed to keep ToD going)
ToD requires 200 Ki per minute to keep on cool-down.
+ you'll want to be using Earth 3, Earth 4, FoI, EEE Finisher, FoD, Fire4 or Wind4, or Water4, whatever ya got.

those 6 + ToD will keep your ki strikes on cool down 100% of the time.

Now the amount of Ki needed for those, SHOULD be provided for you from Fire 4 stance (+1 per hit, +5 per crit), Capstone (+1 regen), AND from Crane if you take it..."


OThers are stating that being able to always spam these attacks clearly outwieghs the dps gain from wind stance.

[Junts]

Brain go splodey all over my car. So sad.

[Anthios888]

OK, first of all, take that 110 attack speed per minute number and replace the 110 with around 220. About 11 or 12 less if you're not using wind stance. Whoever you're quoting forgot about, like, offhand attacks, among other things... It's so bad I don't want to get into it. You should have plenty of ki, especially if you're using Oremi's set and Crane Stance for your required animal path.

[butlerfamilywa]

oh wow the docent doesnt stack with haste???? oh then it is ****...thank you very much for clarifying this, i would have bought one and been ****ed.

The reason I am hearing of going fire is not only for the damage but the ki generation. I read that you can keep all your attacks up...in fact here is the quote:

"Fire Stance IV = 110 KI from hits, 60 or so Ki from crits per minute..
Add Crane to that, and you wont need any more Ki for your attacks...

Oremi's =
110 (give or take) Ki per minute. (1/2 what is needed to keep ToD going)
ToD requires 200 Ki per minute to keep on cool-down.
+ you'll want to be using Earth 3, Earth 4, FoI, EEE Finisher, FoD, Fire4 or Wind4, or Water4, whatever ya got.

those 6 + ToD will keep your ki strikes on cool down 100% of the time.

Now the amount of Ki needed for those, SHOULD be provided for you from Fire 4 stance (+1 per hit, +5 per crit), Capstone (+1 regen), AND from Crane if you take it..."


OThers are stating that being able to always spam these attacks clearly outwieghs the dps gain from wind stance.

I believe that qoute is from me.. anyways

I'll recrunch numbers tonight, and see where exactly we get placed as far as how much Ki is gained from Fire IV vs Wind IV... You might have to drop down to 4 ki strikes or such we'll see...

I do see Fire stance around 580-590 dps, vs winds being a little over 600.. HOWEVER i have not taken into account the amount of Ki you'll have.

[Anthios888]

I believe that qoute is from me.. anyways

I'll recrunch numbers tonight, and see where exactly we get placed as far as how much Ki is gained from Fire IV vs Wind IV... You might have to drop down to 4 ki strikes or such we'll see...

I do see Fire stance around 580-590 dps, vs winds being a little over 600.. HOWEVER i have not taken into account the amount of Ki you'll have.

Umm... you know DPS means damage per second, right?

[butlerfamilywa]

OK, first of all, take that 110 attack speed per minute number and replace the 110 with around 220. About 11 or 12 less if you're not using wind stance. Whoever you're quoting forgot about, like, offhand attacks, among other things... It's so bad I don't want to get into it. You should have plenty of ki, especially if you're using Oremi's set and Crane Stance for your required animal path.

The actual attacks per min I have written out correctly, just not in this formula. I posted it quickly on the fly.. here are the correct numbers...

Regular Attacks:
126 swings per Minute main hand for a Monk + 15% Haste = 144.9 - 5% miss chance, - 10% (crits) = 123.8895 Swings.

123.8895 swings per Minute @ 80% Off-hand chance = 99.1116 hits a minute off-hand

With double strike 10% (affecting connecting main-hand attacks)

123.8895 Swings Per Min * .10 = 12.38895 extra swings from Double strike.. so

Every Min you'll collect 123.88 + 99.11 + 12.38 = 235.37 + Ki from crits (which will be a diffrent factoring number)

But, 235 Ki will come from Omeri's

I had a lot of numbers going through my head that day when I posted that, and I will fully re-write a DPS calculation for a
WF Strength Monk Max Buffed in Wind IV Stance.
and a
WF Strength Monk Max Buffed in Fire IV Stance... finished this one i think, linked here: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3157589&postcount=14

Anyways.. Yes I'm starting to see that IF you can keep your Ki Gen high enough to keep ToD, Stunning Fist, 5+ Ki strikes going all on timer all the time, from Wind IV stance, that might just STILL be the end game stance for folks to be in, unless needing HPS to tank, then Earth IV is better. (with Jids, 2d14 dd)

[Junts]

So much bad here

Most monk dps calculators include the dps that they output with a typically achievable ki rotation.

Ki generation does not add more touch of death dps. All monk stances produce enough ki to use it on timer. It is other strikes you get to use more. It can be a difference.

Earth stance is never good. Ever. Even with Jidz.

[Anthios888]

Regular Attacks:
126 swings per Minute main hand for a Monk + 15% Haste = 144.9 - 5% miss chance, - 10% (crits) = 123.8895 Swings.

It seems like you have spent hours on this. I really hate to break it to you, but you added haste twice. 126 is the number of attacks an ultimate wind stanced monk will get on their main hand. That's including haste and including 10% doublestrike.

If you're in any other stance, this number is 115. The DPS benefit from wind stance is perma haste and about 11 to 12 additional attacks per minute.

It follows also that offhand attacks would be 80% of 115.

When it comes to the Ki strike maths... there's just a point where the numbers fail to simulate realistic DPS rotations for actual DDO monsters' immunities and movement patterns, realistic Action Point setups, stuns, & many other factors. I'm all for using these calculations to make choices to improve your character the best you can. But they ain't all training dummies.

[butlerfamilywa]

So much bad here

Most monk dps calculators include the dps that they output with a typically achievable ki rotation.

Ki generation does not add more touch of death dps. All monk stances produce enough ki to use it on timer. It is other strikes you get to use more. It can be a difference.

Earth stance is never good. Ever. Even with Jidz.

Fire Stance gives you huge Ki generation. +2 Damage, +2 to hit, +25% healing amp (with bracers)
Earth Stance gives you Ki generation. just not HUGE (when you're main raid boss tank), 2d14 instead of 2d12 damage as a TR'd past life'd Monk.

2d12 = avg of 13 damage + 2 damage from the +4 strength you get in Fire Stance = avg damage of 15.
2d14 = avg of 15 damage.

As far as DPS goes.. You'll have the same, in Earth stance as you will in Fire stance.. the only diffrence between the two is honestly, +2 to hit, and +25% healing amp.

Oh and 7% less movement speed, which still puts you faster than a regular toon.

[butlerfamilywa]

It seems like you have spent hours on this. I really hate to break it to you, but you added haste twice. 126 is the number of attacks an ultimate wind stanced monk will get on their main hand. That's including haste and including 10% doublestrike.

If you're in any other stance, this number is 115. The DPS benefit from wind stance is perma haste and about 11 to 12 additional attacks per minute.

It follows also that offhand attacks would be 80% of 115.

When it comes to the Ki strike maths... there's just a point where the numbers fail to simulate realistic DPS rotations for actual DDO monsters' immunities and movement patterns, realistic Action Point setups, stuns, & many other factors. I'm all for using these calculations to make choices to improve your character the best you can. But they ain't all training dummies.

Thank you for the information in regards to the actual attack #'s of Monks, I appreciate it.

Yes I've spent hours doing these calculations, but to be honest, I've enjoyed doing them.

I'm wanting to do a DPS write up of a dps focused monk, at a substainable rage strength level, vs 0 fort, 0 dr, 0 resistance mobs, then against raid bosses, to see where the monk actually runs out at.

To do so I've needed certain figures, one of which you've given me here. The others I should be able to retrieve off www.ddowiki.com (in-so-far as Fort, DR, Resistances, ect)

Look for it in the future, however for now, I'm leaving the other figures where they are, as a rough outline as to what a topend dps monk can do.

[Mobeius]

If you have access to IQ just get the Quorforged Docent of Battle and then go through and uprgade it, really not that difficult and I think its one of the best docents in game for WF melee. -2 will save is neglible for a monk.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Unlimited/Items/Docents/QuorforgedDocentofBattleUpgraded.png

Thats the crafted version.

[jmonty]

Earth stance is never good. Ever. Even with Jidz.

drat.. i'm almost always in earth stance on my lvl 15 monk.. :(

[AylinIsAwesome]

drat.. i'm almost always in earth stance on my lvl 15 monk.. :(

Earth stance is only good to take the strikes. Other than that...

EDIT: Oh, it's also good if you need more HP, and DPS isn't an issue for some reason.

[Darkrok]

Earth stance is only good to take the strikes. Other than that...

EDIT: Oh, it's also good if you need more HP, and DPS isn't an issue for some reason.

Exactly - like if you're tanking a raid boss or tanking tough enemies pre-20 (since it gives you dr as well).

[rabrams99]

so there is a concensus that the best dps comes from wind stance and crane then?