The plight of casual gamers and small guilds

[thewizard3]

Two points to this post…

First is about guilds and how they have been detrimental to the casual gamers’ ability to effectively form or join a PuG. Not a lot of fans of PuGs out there I’m sure, but it is a big part of how a lot of people play the game. It seems that there are fewer and fewer opportunities to get in groups. Personally, I have played DDO for about 4 years, and cannot remember a time when it was so difficult to get a group together (PuG). I can only attribute this to the Guild emphasis. I love the idea of guilds, and what Turbine has done to foster that type of play, but it is at the expense of the casual gamer. Sure, there are some guilds that tout they are for casual gamers and this is fine, but those who choose not to be part of a guild are presented with fewer and fewer opportunities to play (as stated before). The rush to join and form guilds has also created another rift, which brings up the second point…

Players see the benefit of joining a large guild simply for the increased opportunity to actually be able to play when online, and for the perks the higher level guilds offer. The other issue is that these people are essentially rushing to these big guilds for those perks. The smaller guilds that are interested in growing and becoming one of the big ones are forced to fight for the scraps, and looking for the new players who just started the game. This is much like the Wal-Mart’s of the world compared to the mom-and-pop shops; there simply is no way to compete for membership. I have a guild that I created and have experienced this first hand. I was happy to hear that Turbine gave smaller guilds a bump in guild renown to help off-set the big guild leveling dominance, and make smaller guilds a bit more attractive to prospective members (possible side effect for another purpose?), but the membership attraction is the problem. There are many small guilds out there that are having trouble attracting members. Is there a solution for the small guilds out there? Short of combining these groups under some sort of Small Guild Coalition, I have no idea. My guild is level 8 almost ready for level 9, but I would be willing to disband it in order to coordinate efforts to bring these other small guilds together to increase the ability to play more consistently. If anyone is interested in setting up a “think tank” to figure out how this could work, I would personally be very interested.

The game experience is not only the graphics and mechanics, but the social interaction between players. When that interaction is taken away or limited, it directly affects the experience for not only new players, but for those who have been around for a while. Again, if anyone is interested in trying to think this through and come up with a solution that will benefit both casual gamers and small guilds alike, please feel free to PM me or reply to this thread.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Large guilds have been leading to declining numbers of LFMs for a long time. I see no change recently.

People are flocking to large guilds now for the perks.

I thought it was funny that a guy put in general chat, "could someone invite me to their guild?" And I did......as soon as he saw we were low lvl he left immediately. lol

But I just did some of the hardest high lvl content recently.... one of them was a raid full of people from a high lvl guild with lots of perks.

and I had none of those guild buffs....and I did not feel underpowered at all compared to them.


It's not that bad for smaller guilds.... (yet).

[aurum1]

When I started playing last October I was unguilded and then joined a small guild of nice people...like lots of those guilds it fell apart when the 2 or 3 active people suddenly stopped playing. I then ran into some PK guys in a pug and joined. Since then it has grown from about a dozen people to somewhere around 50. I can't speak for Gummy but it seems that there won't be any cap on membership. Anyone who wants to join and play by the guild rules is welcome. The guild has grown because a lot of the members are willing to PUG and take unguilded people and unknown guild members into groups.

That being said I am skewed by 1st -friends list, 2nd -friends of group members, 3rd - joining guild name when taking members for a group. I still see a good bit of PUG spots for lots of content though. It could just be your play time, or level (sometimes there are no groups for lvl 12ish content, other times nothing at lvl 20).

For a small guild you need to figure out what you want to be. There are some effective small guilds that are close knit friends and are active with 2-5 players at a time and PUG the rest. Are you putting up LFMs? You might get to know more people/meet more/accomplish more if you post a PUG lfm for what you want to run vs. waiting for what you want to run.

There may be some excitement around guild ships and buffs, but once the novelty wears off it will become apparent that it isn't all that big of a deal. Maybe at lvl 4 those +2 damage buffs are big or on the flip side it might make a difference in epic DQ, but in between. meh.

There should still be room for all kinds of guilds.
small, hardcore guilds. - Loot
large, open guilds. - PK
small casual guilds. - halfing nation

But if the complaint is about taking a small casual guild and forming it into a new large casual guild...well that will take time and be difficult. Players that have been around for a while know (and are known) to a lot of guilds. If one of those players gets unhappy they probably won't go to a brand new guild. They will join friends in another guild or go a guild they know fits their play style better (more or less hardcore). I wouldn't give up on recruiting though. If you are friendly, nice, and group with lots of people you will grow over time.

[Eladiun]

Two points to this post…

First is about guilds and how they have been detrimental to the casual gamers’ ability to effectively form or join a PuG. Not a lot of fans of PuGs out there I’m sure, but it is a big part of how a lot of people play the game. It seems that there are fewer and fewer opportunities to get in groups. Personally, I have played DDO for about 4 years, and cannot remember a time when it was so difficult to get a group together (PuG).

I stopped right here because it tells me a) you suffer from Alzheimer's or b) you are lying to make your point. If you have been here 4 years you know how low server populations were at one point and it was much more difficult to fill groups then. There may or may not be a problem now but saying it is the worst in the four years you played is false.

[voidholder]

It seems that you cut your applicant pool already to probably under 1/10th by naming the guild Halfling Nation... :)

I don't think the perks are the issue, they are not game breaking (at least after getting that first ship for the coolness factor). Getting groups is, and yes there are not too many PUGs going on at least on euro times. Maybe people got scared of the pugs after all those new players flowed in and the number of bad apples rose (I think it is better now already)? Or the game is just too easy for those who've played longer and full groups are only needed for certain elite quests?

For getting groups better our guild did just that coalition thing. Not by merging the guild but by sharing a chat channel with like minded guilds/individuals. That allows us to keep that family style guild feel but still experience it all.

[DerekLucas]

I feel your pain, my first and only Cannith toon sometimes has a very hard time finding PUG's to join. I don't take being in a guild lightly and I want to make sure they are people I want to play with before joining.

Well, I reached 11th level and I have still not found any guilds that stand out as the wanna join guild.
I guess I could just find one and join to get the perks, but this just goes against my idea of what guilds are for.
I am not concerned about the size, it's the quality that counts.
So I continue on with the slim pickin's in the LFG panel.

So as a new Cannith user I feel sorry for new players that want a good group experience, I can't help but wonder if Turbine shot them selves in the foot by creating cliques in the game(or new to a server) that make new people feel like outsiders.

I still think Turbines solution to being able to use guild only items is to create a 1 person guild is such a blatant attempt to sell guilds in the DDO store. I have a few items I'd use if I was in a guild but I am not going to create a guild or join one just to use them.

So overall I'd say update 5 gave me more lag and not much of anything else. Sure glad I no longer pay to play this game.

[Avonwey]

I would love to find a guild on Cannith. But it seems guilds fit into two categories: the large "uber" guilds, and then the millions of starter guilds created (for the most part) by new players.

I would like a small guild where I can get to know people and work well as a team. However, it seems that finding a small guild of good players is very difficult.

[thewizard3]

I thank you for taking the time to reply to the thread. I only ask that you have something positive to add next time. Off handed insults are neither desired or warranted.


I stopped right here because it tells me a) you suffer from Alzheimer's or b) you are lying to make your point. If you have been here 4 years you know how low server populations were at one point and it was much more difficult to fill groups then. There may or may not be a problem now but saying it is the worst in the four years you played is false.

[Eladiun]

I thank you for taking the time to reply to the thread. I only ask that you have something positive to add next time. Off handed insults are neither desired or warranted.


It's not an off handed insult. It's a critique. Your hyberbole in stating that the renown system has made grouping the most difficult it has ever been in the 4 years you have been playing is totally false. It was much worse... starting off a post by playing chicken little is never a good way to make your point.

[thewizard3]

It seems that you cut your applicant pool already to probably under 1/10th by naming the guild Halfling Nation... :)

Ah, but who doesn't think the little people need a voice in Stormreach :D. I think the time of the niche racially specific or class specific guild is about done. No offense to Ohm (WF) or the various Dwarven clans making their mark out there.


I don't think the perks are the issue, they are not game breaking (at least after getting that first ship for the coolness factor). Getting groups is, and yes there are not too many PUGs going on at least on euro times. Maybe people got scared of the pugs after all those new players flowed in and the number of bad apples rose (I think it is better now already)?

I agree that there was a huge influx of inexperienced gamers with the intro of F2P at one point, and put a sour taste in many people's mouths, but things work themselves out. Many have either moved on to easier MMO systems, or got much better at the game. If this is the main cause, the stigma has really stuck around for a long time. I think the PuG and casual gamer plight is due to the mass rush to join big guilds.


Or the game is just too easy for those who've played longer and full groups are only needed for certain elite quests?

Possible, but I'm not sure it would account for the drastic reduction of opportunities since Guild enhancements were put into place.


For getting groups better our guild did just that coalition thing. Not by merging the guild but by sharing a chat channel with like minded guilds/individuals. That allows us to keep that family style guild feel but still experience it all.

Chat channels are a great way to keep the communication going. This is one of my ideas where the individual guilds with in a shell guild could still maintain their own sense of unity.

[thewizard3]

The point, good sir, was mine to make.

Again, I appreciate the reply, but the critique (as you put it) was neither desired, nor warranted. Please do not presume to force your perception of a reality as a truth, when others have differing opinions. If it was your presumption that the initial statement was to be construed as a truth, then I apologize; it was merely my interpretation and analysis of the recent anomaly of reduced PuG opportunities.

Whether you want to acknowledge reality or not is up to you. There are many people out there that are feeling the strain; what I am doing, is merely giving it a voice, and proposing a solution.

I have given you far too much acknowledgment in this response already.


I bid you a good day, sir.




It's not an off handed insult. It's a critique. Your hyberbole in stating that the renown system has made grouping the most difficult it has ever been in the 4 years you have been playing is totally false. It was much worse... starting off a post by playing chicken little is never a good way to make your point.

[Thechemicals]

Two points to this post…

First is about guilds and how they have been detrimental to the casual gamers’ ability to effectively form or join a PuG. Not a lot of fans of PuGs out there I’m sure, but it is a big part of how a lot of people play the game. It seems that there are fewer and fewer opportunities to get in groups. Personally, I have played DDO for about 4 years, and cannot remember a time when it was so difficult to get a group together (PuG). I can only attribute this to the Guild emphasis. I love the idea of guilds, and what Turbine has done to foster that type of play, but it is at the expense of the casual gamer. Sure, there are some guilds that tout they are for casual gamers and this is fine, but those who choose not to be part of a guild are presented with fewer and fewer opportunities to play (as stated before). The rush to join and form guilds has also created another rift, which brings up the second point…

Players see the benefit of joining a large guild simply for the increased opportunity to actually be able to play when online, and for the perks the higher level guilds offer. The other issue is that these people are essentially rushing to these big guilds for those perks. The smaller guilds that are interested in growing and becoming one of the big ones are forced to fight for the scraps, and looking for the new players who just started the game. This is much like the Wal-Mart’s of the world compared to the mom-and-pop shops; there simply is no way to compete for membership. I have a guild that I created and have experienced this first hand. I was happy to hear that Turbine gave smaller guilds a bump in guild renown to help off-set the big guild leveling dominance, and make smaller guilds a bit more attractive to prospective members (possible side effect for another purpose?), but the membership attraction is the problem. There are many small guilds out there that are having trouble attracting members. Is there a solution for the small guilds out there? Short of combining these groups under some sort of Small Guild Coalition, I have no idea. My guild is level 8 almost ready for level 9, but I would be willing to disband it in order to coordinate efforts to bring these other small guilds together to increase the ability to play more consistently. If anyone is interested in setting up a “think tank” to figure out how this could work, I would personally be very interested.

The game experience is not only the graphics and mechanics, but the social interaction between players. When that interaction is taken away or limited, it directly affects the experience for not only new players, but for those who have been around for a while. Again, if anyone is interested in trying to think this through and come up with a solution that will benefit both casual gamers and small guilds alike, please feel free to PM me or reply to this thread.

I cant help but think of the peanut butter mom when i read this. Her son was allergic to peanut butter and she wanted it banned from the school he was attending.

[KoboldKiller]

I gotta say I haven't seen this issue on Orien or Argo.

[Vua]

The point, good sir, was mine to make.

Again, I appreciate the reply, but the critique (as you put it) was neither desired, nor warranted. Please do not presume to force your perception of a reality as a truth, when others have differing opinions. If it was your presumption that the initial statement was to be construed as a truth, then I apologize; it was merely my interpretation and analysis of the recent anomaly of reduced PuG opportunities.

Whether you want to acknowledge reality or not is up to you. There are many people out there that are feeling the strain; what I am doing, is merely giving it a voice, and proposing a solution.

I have given you far too much acknowledgment in this response already.


I bid you a good day, sir.


Well that is what happens when you post on the forums, you can't control the type of responses you get. In this case he's correct, it was much worse before the server merge. You could log on and find less than 100 people logged onto a server.

You may be correct in saying it's now harder to pug since the guild renown came out, but it's not the hardest it's ever been.

[Vua]

I cant help but think of the peanut butter mom when i read this. Her son was allergic to peanut butter and she wanted it banned from the school he was attending.

My kid's school had a no peanut policy last year for 1 student.

[Maxelcat]

I don't see a detriment.

I run a small casual guild, most of the guild is account alts. We don't actively recruit. heck its rare when theres enough on at one time right now to make guild partys. (though part of that is Its summer and not everyone is sitting at home playing DDO)

We're at level 11 as of yesterday. we have been gaining guild levels at a reasonable rate even before we got the small guild bonus. We have a guild bank for sharing stuff, and have already decided that when we get to level 20 were going to buy the little cheep boat (we are not going to spend TP on Diamonds) and not get all stressed out if we ever get any higher then guild level 25.


sure the big guilds get all the big "cool" stuff. they all ways have. more members mean more resources. be it cash/gear/people to run dungeons with what ever.

do i want a big guild? no, I like knowing every ones name, where they live, how they are doing IRL.

When we had the discussion about which boat we wanted, and if we were going to stress out about the guild stuff; one of my guild mates put it nicely:

"I rather have a small boat with a few cool people that I like, that a big boat fill with people I don't know."

(not that I have a thing about big guilds, some of the nicest people I've met in DDO are in one ;) )

[thewizard3]

I understand what you are talking about; the statement was not meant to infer that it was never worse, but to place emphasis on current difficulties forming or finding a group.


Well that is what happens when you post on the forums, you can't control the type of responses you get. In this case he's correct, it was much worse before the server merge. You could log on and find less than 100 people logged onto a server.

You may be correct in saying it's now harder to pug since the guild renown came out, but it's not the hardest it's ever been.

[thewizard3]

There is nothing in my post to infer that anyone should stop anything. Only that an issue exists, and a solution that may be good for some. I hope the general thought is not that I think all guilds should be removed. The though is quite the opposite; I want to put something together that will help others reap the benefits and rewards to the system in place.

I cant help but think of the peanut butter mom when i read this. Her son was allergic to peanut butter and she wanted it banned from the school he was attending.

[Lleren]

Personally, I have played DDO for about 4 years, and cannot remember a time when it was so difficult to get a group together (PuG).

Its that line Zip.

I'll agree the number of pug groups seems to be down at times, and times are likely hard for the smaller Guilds to recruit well and grow. It is work to run a Guild that folks might be interested in joining. Good luck with yours.

[MrWizard]

Joining elite LFMs and any difficulty raid would be hard for a casual player as that is the tough part of the game.

Many times a raid can carry you though.

Causal players have tons to do at cas-norm settings...

small guilds make names for themselves.

It is the players who are on all the time that know each other...that is just the way it is.

[Avonwey]

Joining elite LFMs and any difficulty raid would be hard for a casual player as that is the tough part of the game.

Many times a raid can carry you though.

Causal players have tons to do at cas-norm settings...

Casual players can mean a lot of things, but I certainly do not think that Casual = less skilled. I'm as capable a player in any high level raid.

[thewizard3]

I agree with you about it being hard to find a small guild with good players. Not that they aren’t out there, it’s just that they are literally hard to find because they may not be online all the time. I have a few toons I play regularly - ranging in level 5 to 17 (Zip is a TR). I’m sure I’ve ran with many people who have replied to this thread before. I’m sure the groups were great; these opportunities are just getting fewer and fewer.

If small guilds want to remain small, and don’t care about the guild renown or perks, that’s great; it is all about how people enjoy playing the game.

I still think there is value in having the same resources that everyone else has in a big guild. I don’t want to beat a dead horse, so I’ll just leave it at that. I’ll take a little time to draft some ideas for a shell guild, and post later on. I’ll post under a separate thread as not to obscure the idea.

Stay tuned



I would love to find a guild on Cannith. But it seems guilds fit into two categories: the large "uber" guilds, and then the millions of starter guilds created (for the most part) by new players.

I would like a small guild where I can get to know people and work well as a team. However, it seems that finding a small guild of good players is very difficult.

[aurum1]

I feel your pain, my first and only Cannith toon sometimes has a very hard time finding PUG's to join. I don't take being in a guild lightly and I want to make sure they are people I want to play with before joining.

Well, I reached 11th level and I have still not found any guilds that stand out as the wanna join guild.
I guess I could just find one and join to get the perks, but this just goes against my idea of what guilds are for.
I am not concerned about the size, it's the quality that counts.
So I continue on with the slim pickin's in the LFG panel.

So as a new Cannith user I feel sorry for new players that want a good group experience, I can't help but wonder if Turbine shot them selves in the foot by creating cliques in the game(or new to a server) that make new people feel like outsiders.

I still think Turbines solution to being able to use guild only items is to create a 1 person guild is such a blatant attempt to sell guilds in the DDO store. I have a few items I'd use if I was in a guild but I am not going to create a guild or join one just to use them.

So overall I'd say update 5 gave me more lag and not much of anything else. Sure glad I no longer pay to play this game.


If you reached level 11 without finding any friends or a guild to join perhaps the problem lies in the mirror....

For to OP...good luck with your guild...but the post still doesn't make sense. A new small guild can either stay small or grow with new people. It won't likely steal away people from older guilds. They already know other people to join and won't go to some unkown guild. This process isn't rocket science.
Group.
Make friends.
Join friends' guild.
Add others to friends list to fill group outside of LFM.
LFM as last resort.

[trespasser]

On a side note, its the middle of the summer, vacation time. Starcraft2 just came out. Update 5, like it or not, did chase some players away (making them take a break or leave permanently). Also, from what I see on Cannith a whole new batch of players is reaching 20 and they are mostly afraid to start their own LFMs. The ones that have been around for a while already know enough people to just organize groups without going public. At lower levels most experienced players (me included on my TR) never bother with grouping, unless its a friend I know - solo up to level 13-15 or so. This leads to LFMs getting filled within minutes so unless you are constantly staring at the social panel you can easily miss them - I had a mindsunder group with 1 spot that had 3 applicants within the first 30 seconds after I put the LFM up.

When the summer is over and the new batch of players gain some confidence, the looking for group numbers will increase again. And then it will decrease again :) Even if the guild system has something to do with it, its definitely not the main (or even a significant) reason.

[markusthelion]

If you reached level 11 without finding any friends or a guild to join perhaps the problem lies in the mirror....

For to OP...good luck with your guild...but the post still doesn't make sense. A new small guild can either stay small or grow with new people. It won't likely steal away people from older guilds. They already know other people to join and won't go to some unkown guild. This process isn't rocket science.
Group.
Make friends.
Join friends' guild.
Add others to friends list to fill group outside of LFM.
LFM as last resort.

/This

[Dex]

Casual players can mean a lot of things, but I certainly do not think that Casual = less skilled. I'm as capable a player in any high level raid.

Nothing negative about you here, I don't believe we've grouped, but... This is the same thing that players who don't have a clue think. You don't have to reply with proof, I'm just saying, the clueless usually think the same thing. I've grouped with plenty of them though, arg! Usually willing to give them a chance to prove it first, much to the poor wear and tear on my equipment and sanity.

And to the OP. I think you have it backwards amigo, the PUG life is what filled the guilds, especially with the advent of F2P... OK, I just had to hit the backspace button for about 2 minutes, rant = off!

[Kaelain]

I am one of the new players that started a guild recently. My thoughts are to play it alone or take on some members that reply to the threads I've posted. As a new player I know I'm not that good. I figure that if I keep my guild going alone by the time I am good enough to help out new players I'll have a decent level guild and can catch more attention. This isn't exactly what you are talking about but I just wanted to post how I'm looking at my newly started guild. I also have a character in a much, much larger guild (level 44) to help out my learning process.

[der_kluge]

I'd argue that most guilds simply don't have the volume to be able to fill out high level raids with their own guild members making up all 12 members.

And even though I'm in one of the largest guilds (Platinum Knights), most of my groups are still PUG groups. The kinds of people who exclusively play within a guild are in the minority, IMHO.

There could be other factors going on as to why you seem to be having a hard time finding groups. Time of day, your level range (level 13-15 can be harsh) and what kind of class you are can all have an effect on how easy (or hard) it is to find PUGs.

[Picker]

I'm in Spellbinders and most of the groups i run in have one or two pugs mostly its a full guild group we have regular flagging nights and raid nights where we run 2-3 full groups simultaneously. :)

13-15 is a pain i generally get to GH finish that asap then jump into the vale and reavers reach by then im lvl 17 at least and getting ready for Amrath.

Remember if you dont see a group start one it amazing how many people stand around just looking for a lfm when if they started one they could be in quest.