Capstone and negative level's?

[Erekose]

Do you loose the benefit of your capstone when you have a negative level in effect?

Similarly, If you have a character, such as a 18 Fighter, 2 Monk, if you take a negative level do you loose the third tier for your prestige enhancement?

Dungeon Master Guide, pg 27, V III, "Should a character find herself in a position(changed alignment, lost levels, and so on) where she no longer meets the requirements of a prestige class, she loses all special abilities (but not HD, base attack bonus, or base save bonus) gained from levels of the prestige class.

[karnokvolrath]

I wouldnt think so but a difinative answer to this would be great so ill give it a little bump it.

[bobbryan2]

You don't lose your capstone for a temporary negative level.

And as there are no permanent negative levels in DDO... you would not.

[Erekose]

You don't lose your capstone for a temporary negative level.

And as there are no permanent negative levels in DDO... you would not.

Why is there a distinction between temporary and permanent negative levels? It's the same thing. Even permanent negative levels can be removed therefore, are temporary until that time.

[thomprob]

I would think iniigo montoya would not suffer from this ailment, but alas, I have not seen him in a while

[hydra_ex]

Negative Levels are not the same as Level Loss.

The former is temporary, the latter is permanent (although can probably be removed via a wish or miracle spell).

That's the pnp description. In DDO, we only have Negative Levels (for obvious reasons, and on top of that we have no wish or miracle, for other obvious reasons). Negative Levels do not actually drain any levels; they merely bestow a penalty to a wide variety of statistics (attack bonus, hp, saves). Therefore, a lvl 20 fighter with 1 negative level would not be a lvl 19 fighter. He would be a lvl 20 fighter with many penalties making him about the same strength of a lvl 19 fighter.

Thus, you are still a lvl 20 and retain all your enhancements (such as capstones) can use any ML 20 equipment, etc.

[Cylinwolf]

That quote directly has to deal with levels lost from negative levels, and not negative levels themselves.

Each negative level gives a creature a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, ability checks, and effective level for the purposes of caster level in DDO. Negative levels stack.

If a negative level is applied from an outside source in D&D (Enervation, Energy Drain, a Wight's touch attack), 24 hours later you must roll a fortitude save for each negative level on you or lose them. If you succeed the save, you go back to being normal.

DDO does not have a system where you actually lose levels, so the above quote does not apply to DDO. If you're at level 20 (and have the capstone) and take a negative level, you're still level 20. You just have a penalty to the above.

[Erekose]

Negative Levels are not the same as Level Loss.

The former is temporary, the latter is permanent (although can probably be removed via a wish or miracle spell).

That's the pnp description. In DDO, we only have Negative Levels (for obvious reasons, and on top of that we have no wish or miracle, for other obvious reasons). Negative Levels do not actually drain any levels; they merely bestow a penalty to a wide variety of statistics (attack bonus, hp, saves). Therefore, a lvl 20 fighter with 1 negative level would not be a lvl 19 fighter. He would be a lvl 20 fighter with many penalties making him about the same strength of a lvl 19 fighter.

Thus, you are still a lvl 20 and retain all your enhancements (such as capstones) can use any ML 20 equipment, etc.

I would take it that a negative level is a lost level, irrespective for how long. This game has temporary neg levels because it can't handle permanent ones.

[Erekose]

That quote directly has to deal with levels lost from negative levels, and not negative levels themselves.

Each negative level gives a creature a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saves, skill checks, ability checks, and effective level for the purposes of caster level in DDO. Negative levels stack.

If a negative level is applied from an outside source in D&D (Enervation, Energy Drain, a Wight's touch attack), 24 hours later you must roll a fortitude save for each negative level on you or lose them. If you succeed the save, you go back to being normal.

DDO does not have a system where you actually lose levels, so the above quote does not apply to DDO. If you're at level 20 (and have the capstone) and take a negative level, you're still level 20. You just have a penalty to the above.

Shame. Another departure from the core rules. Why do they have Dungeons & Dragons in the name? Anyone have an answer to that? Is it a brand thing?

[bobbryan2]

Shame. Another departure from the core rules. Why do they have Dungeons & Dragons in the name? Anyone have an answer to that? Is it a brand thing?

Please be joking...

[Erekose]

Please be joking...

No. Litany of the Dead trinket, if your the wrong alignment is a permanent negative level, when wearing the item, which is not being calculated properly.

[bobbryan2]

No. Litany of the Dead trinket, if your the wrong alignment is a permanent negative level, when wearing the item, which is not being calculated properly.

Permanent, when wearing the item.

Notice an inherent contradiction there?

[Erekose]

Permanent, when wearing the item.

Notice an inherent contradiction there?

There is no contradiction. When wearing the item the effect cannot be removed, therefore permanent.

Can you try and focus on the topic please if you want to add value to the discussion.

[bobbryan2]

There is no contradiction. When wearing the item the effect cannot be removed, therefore permanent.

Can you try and focus on the topic please if you want to add value to the discussion.

You're the one not adding value. In the description, the litany of the dead even calls it a temporary negative level.

You're the one mixing up definitions and accusing Turbine of messing up rulesets. In fact, DDO negative levels are MORE punitive than pnp, because they give -2 to skills and to hit instead of -1. The only difference is that DDO negative levels don't have a chance of going permanent after wearing off normally.

And can you even imagine DDO with permanent negative levels? They couldn't even give reincarnations until a few months ago. How were they supposed to cope with taking a level off the total?

[bobbryan2]

For reference



A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained:

•-1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
•-1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
•-5 hit points.
•-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
•If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.
Negative levels remain until 24 hours have passed or until they are removed with a spell, such as restoration. If a negative level is not removed before 24 hours have passed, the affected creature must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). On a success, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature. On a failure, the negative level goes away, but the creature’s level is also reduced by one. A separate saving throw is required for each negative level.


And about negative levels from items...



It bestows one negative level on any chaotic creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded.

[Erekose]

You're the one not adding value. In the description, the litany of the dead even calls it a temporary negative level.

You're the one mixing up definitions and accusing Turbine of messing up rulesets. In fact, DDO negative levels are MORE punitive than pnp, because they give -2 to skills and to hit instead of -1. The only difference is that DDO negative levels don't have a chance of going permanent after wearing off normally.

And can you even imagine DDO with permanent negative levels? They couldn't even give reincarnations until a few months ago. How were they supposed to cope with taking a level off the total?

The Core rules actually doesn't address Negative levels as a specific subject, it is addressed throughout the various rule books when relevant. Which is why interpretation of Negative levels is difficult to determine.

Hence, why game rules are debated, such as Negative levels.

If you have the DMG and PH, please find me the pages I can refer to that support your opinion.

[bobbryan2]

The Core rules actually doesn't address Negative levels as a specific subject, it is addressed throughout the various rule books when relevant. Which is why interpretation of Negative levels is difficult to determine.

Hence, why game rules are debated, such as Negative levels.

If you have the DMG and PH, please find me the pages I can refer to that support your opinion.

It's all there in the online reference.

Your quote was about level loss. You're trying to apply that reasoning to negative levels. One's permanent and not in DDO, the other is temporary and IS in DDO.

[Erekose]

It's all there in the online reference.

Your quote was about level loss. You're trying to apply that reasoning to negative levels. One's permanent and not in DDO, the other is temporary and IS in DDO.

It's interesting when you apply it to capstones, as capstones have a pre-requisite, that being Level 20, irrespective of temporary or permanent status.

[bobbryan2]

It's interesting when you apply it to capstones, as capstones have a pre-requisite, that being Level 20, irrespective of temporary or permanent status.

You're still level 20 while under the effects of a temporary negative level (which DDO has) but not after having undergone level loss (which DDO doesn't have).

How is this difficult?

[Erekose]

You're still level 20 while under the effects of a temporary negative level (which DDO has) but not after having undergone level loss (which DDO doesn't have).

How is this difficult?

The discussion seems to be not about the negative level per see, but whether it is temporary and permanent. In my mind there shouldn't be any difference, particularly since the game doesn't have permanent, in the sense of the PnP meaning. Therefore, the rule I quoted above in my first post has been ignored, hence a departure from the core rules. :)

[hydra_ex]

I would take it that a negative level is a lost level, irrespective for how long. This game has temporary neg levels because it can't handle permanent ones.

DDO treats negative levels as a plethora of penalties, not a real level loss.

I don't see why a name bothers you that much. If it makes you happier, you can tell everyone to refer to "negative levels" as "character penalties." Name ist Schall und Rauch. Calling it negative level is merely convenience.

[ekniff]

isn't it something like stats? Qualifying for ITWF requires 17 Dex, but Enhancement Bonuses from items, even though they are "permanent", cannot qualify one for the feat!


When wearing the item the effect cannot be removed, therefore permanent.

[Erekose]

isn't it something like stats? Qualifying for ITWF requires 17 Dex, but Enhancement Bonuses from items, even though they are "permanent", cannot qualify one for the feat!

Interesting point. So is there any 'permanent' level loss in PnP?

[bobbryan2]

Interesting point. So is there any 'permanent' level loss in PnP?

Look.. it goes like this. I'm level 10 and fighting a wight.

Bam, that wight just gave me a negative level.
That negative level gives me -1 to a bunch of things and -5 hit points. But I'm still level 10. I just have a bunch of penalties.
You wait 24 hours and it wears off normally.

...however.

If I make my fort save, the negative level is lost. Still level 10 and don't have anymore penalties.
If I don't make my save, I lose a level and the neg level goes away. Now I'm level 9. I have to subtract one level from my total.

Negative level is a temporary bunch of negatives. Lost level means you go into your character sheet and actualy subtract a level from anything. I'm not longer a 10 fighter, I'm 9. I have to figure out which feat I took.. which stat bonus... which skills I put points into... and x them all out.

DDO has everything implemented perfectly except for two things. In DDO, negative levels are twice as punitive than pnp. Everything is -2 instead of -1. This is to counteract the other non-implemented item... there are no lost levels in DDO.

Even if DDO 'could' handle lost levels... which I doubt it could...it would be completely stupid for it to do so. I mean, do you get made that you don't raise as a wraith or wight if you get neg leveled to deat? Can you imagine people griefing others in pvp with energy drain?

Bam, I got hit with energy drain. 8 negs. Now i need to save versus all of those. Dang.. I missed 7 saves. Instead of level 19, I'm not level 12. And I'm a TR2, and I have used up all my xp already.

[Erekose]

Yeah, gotcha ya. I would say negative levels in 3rd Ed is moderate.

2nd Edition was black and white about it. 3rd Ed quite different.

Going back to a previous example, I have applied this concept to my rationale and it works just fine.

Loosing a level does not take away the experience gained therefore, it is temporary.

However, anything which removes experience points, such as that card from the deck of many things etc, would result in not meeting the requirements to obtain the level, hence permanent level loss.

What about Negative forum reputation? Is that temporary or permanent :)

Thanks Bobby for persisting with my comprehension.

Erek