RS Stealth Nerf?

[Montegue]

Currently, my aura only ticks for 16 (down from 22) with Empower Healing up. Furthermore, it is unable to crit. I've put up several auras without a single critical hit.

Is this a bug or WAI?

[Uska]

yah mine is doing less but I think I know why since they moved the aura to lvl 12 it is now a lvl 6 spell so you need devotion 6 instead of 4 as before darn it

[AyumiAmakusa]

Maybe it is. Did you ask for clarification? (From various methods available to you).

[Montegue]

yah mine is doing less but I think I know why since they moved the aura to lvl 12 it is now a lvl 6 spell so you need devotion 6 instead of 4 as before darn it


Even so, I haven't crit a single tic yet, which means the crit enhancements and gear are not affecting the aura. This change was not listed, but if it's working as intended, then the PrE is pretty much useless given the requirements it has.

[Eladrin]

Even so, I haven't crit a single tic yet...
Either the entire aura will crit or none of it will. All variables should be locked in at the time of casting.

[Montegue]

Either the entire aura will crit or none of it will. All variables should be locked in at the time of casting.


Ack. Really? Ouch.

Eladrin - Not to be that guy, but don't you guys think that's a little harsh? The occasional crits went a long way to mitigate the problems clerics have with mana running out. We already suffer a casting time penalty and a total mana penalty for picking the Cleric class at the generation screen. This PrE benefit went a long way to making that less of a concern. If I want a useful aura, I basically have to waste a bunch of turn attempts to get one. 16 a tick is not going to make any difference when fighting Harry or Sally.

For a point of reference - I have 9 turn attempts available to me. In order to get a "big" aura, I had to use 7 of my attempts.

[RobertVesco]

It's probably due to the fix from it going haywire when you switched equipment or metamagics. Now it sets a fixed value when it starts and stays there.

[Eladrin]

It's probably due to the fix from it going haywire when you switched equipment or metamagics. Now it sets a fixed value when it starts and stays there.
That is the case.

[AyumiAmakusa]

As Eladrin said,


No changes have been made to the healing value of the aura. However, before the aura was very finicky, and was probably not casting itself at your correct caster level.


All variables are now locked in at the time of casting. (So you should be able to turn off things like Empower Healing and the aura will continue with the power it had when you first cast it.)

So, there we go, words from our very own trusted developers. They said that there's no nerf, so they must be right. :)

[Missing_Minds]

Ack. Really? Ouch.

Eladrin - Not to be that guy, but don't you guys think that's a little harsh? The occasional crits went a long way to mitigate the problems clerics have with mana running out. We already suffer a casting time penalty and a total mana penalty for picking the Cleric class at the generation screen. This PrE benefit went a long way to making that less of a concern. If I want a useful aura, I basically have to waste a bunch of turn attempts to get one. 16 a tick is not going to make any difference when fighting Harry or Sally.

For a point of reference - I have 9 turn attempts available to me. In order to get a "big" aura, I had to use 7 of my attempts.

Let me put it to you in another manner with another spell. Wall of Fire.

Still think it is harsh? Unlike SP, your Turns regenerate.

Is it as cool looking with the numbers, no. Oh well. I've never viewed the arua as primary healing, always a secondary/top off method.

[tfindlater]

That is the case.

Why can't you just code in an exception for the crit calc to be taken into account per pulse?

[Montegue]

If the aura ticked for as much as Fire Wall on a non-crit, you would have a point. But it doesn't. It ticks for more or less a meaningless amount of HP (in the context of combat), and it's the critical bursts that make it worthwhile. Now, it will very rarely crit for a whole bunch of healing for a while, which may or may not be useful in context.

For example - I might click my aura to help shore up hp bars as we run through a section of dungeon that has no combat. Then the doors come slamming down, and a bunch of mobs spawn. I hit my aura again (since extend no longer affects it), but this time it doesn't crit, so the healing I get for my group is not useful.

This is a very harsh nerf.

[Bloodhaven]

Lets just hope they dropped the ball and are now trying to figure out what they did, and fix it.

38% Nerf to Aura? NOT counting the extend "fix". That cant be rite but is seems it is.

before:
28 ticks per turn 24 base per tick with crits mixed in there randomly for 2.5X at 9% of the time.<i think it is 9%>

Assuming the tick/sec has not changed the old aura would heal for an average of 762 over 1.5 mins.

Now 28 ticks per turn 18 per tick no crits mixed in. 504 HP over 1.5 mins.


I moved this from another thread, this one seems more in line with what i am trying to say.

[Bloodhaven]

It looks like the burst is now more use full than the aura.

[Montegue]

It looks like the burst is now more use full than the aura.


Which begs the question "why the heck did they flip them"?

[Bloodhaven]

the burst seems to be doing less as well. Even with that the burst for 200 HP is better than waiting 1.5 mins for 500 hp. AND it removes neg levels and stat damage. I am removing aura from my quick bar. It is now a waste of space.

[AyumiAmakusa]

Which begs the question "why the heck did they flip them"?

Well obviously, they had to do so to balance out the game. I'm sure some of our other DDO gamers can tell you the reasons why. I for one, put my faith in the Developers because they know what is best for our gaming experience. Trust is the first step to advancement. :)

[Montegue]

Ayumi, are you some kind of performance artist?

[Drfirewater79]

Why can't you just code in an exception for the crit calc to be taken into account per pulse?

I agree ...

they took something that was working fine and really enjoyable .. .and turned it into something sub par and useless generally speaking ...

too bad ... i was enjoying my cleric ... now i will go back to not playing him.

[MilkmanDan]

I played my cleric up until weeks ago without any prestige enhancement. That's just a cherry on top now.

[DarkBee]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=263551

more discussion on

[Montegue]

I played my cleric up until weeks ago without any prestige enhancement. That's just a cherry on top now.

I've been playing mine the whole time. RS really helped with some of my frustrations with the class, and now it's not nearly as useful in that light. There's no way to stack enough crit to make it a worthwhile button to press.

[oweieie]

I've been playing mine the whole time. RS really helped with some of my frustrations with the class, and now it's not nearly as useful in that light. There's no way to stack enough crit to make it a worthwhile button to press.

Oh hardly you whiners. Infinite healing for the few enhancement points it costs makes it the best use of enhancements in the game.

[Samadhi]

This is most definitely a nerf.

My aura, with all metamagics on, used to hit for 25-27 on non-crits (and in the 40s on crits). Now it is hitting for 18ish on a noncrit. How is this not a nerf? None of the dev responses on this so far are addressing this obvious reduction.

[Xaearth]

Time to swap out that useless feat Empower Healing eh?

[Memnir]

Time to swap out that useless feat Empower Healing eh?Only if you want to ditch Rad Servant totally, since Emp Heal is a req feat.

And while I agree it's a nerf, it's not an unreasonable one. Yeah, the lower healing per-tick, no Extend, and no per-tick crit-rate sucks... but its still a ton of free healing. It'll be an adjustment to the new stuff, but I still like the PrE overall. Yesterday, it was too good. Today, it's still pretty good - just as good.

Not happy with the changes, but can't say I'm gonna stop playing my RS over em either.

[smatt]

I agree ...

they took something that was working fine and really enjoyable .. .and turned it into something sub par and useless generally speaking ...

too bad ... i was enjoying my cleric ... now i will go back to not playing him.

Oh noooozzzeee.. Sarlonans are all doomed to die horrible deaths now.... With Dr. F not playing hsi cleric anymore :D


Seriosuly though I play my cleric a lot.. It's my favorite toon to play... I complained often about the class not getting any love for a very long time, other than the Mass Heal fix. Toons were getting far more Hps, they were taking far larger chunks of damage and poor clerics were left to deal with mess.... Forced to heal parties around wannna be melee FvS etc :rolleyes: I think RS was slighlty overpowered, and although I haven't tested it yet since the change... It problably needed ot be toned down a bit... It is nice that the Devs stepped up and went outside of what Fernando said was planned that clerics were screwed till next year.... We'll see how this change pans out ...

So the value of the aura is set at casting.. Does that mean that it is a crit or it isn't a crit? Or does that mean that it has a chance to crit every 3 seconds and if it does it crits on the entire party for that click?

[Samadhi]

Only if you want to ditch Rad Servant totally, since Emp Heal is a req feat.

And while I agree it's a nerf, it's not an unreasonable one. Yeah, the lower healing per-tick, no Extend, and no per-tick crit-rate sucks... but its still a ton of free healing. It'll be an adjustment to the new stuff, but I still like the PrE overall. Yesterday, it was too good. Today, it's still pretty good - just as good.

Not happy with the changes, but can't say I'm gonna stop playing my RS over em either.

The thing is, nothing I saw that El has commented on it so far is indicating that this change was intended. So that remains the question ya? Was it meant to be reduced wholesale in addition to the other explained changes?

[smatt]

OK, so it's either a crit on cst or not... Hmm, ya I don't care for that very much but whatever... So is RS still worth it... Not sure till I run a bunch of stuff...

[Memnir]

The thing is, nothing I saw that El has commented on it so far is indicating that this change was intended. So that remains the question ya? Was it meant to be reduced wholesale in addition to the other explained changes?Since they're pretty obstinately not commenting on it - I'm going with the impression it was an intended change and they just don't want to outright say so knowing it'd cause a fecalstorm of outrage by many. And, that is SOP for the Devs with things like this.

I could very well be wrong, and would be happy to be so. But...

[Angelus_dead]

Either the entire aura will crit or none of it will. All variables should be locked in at the time of casting.
This seems bad for gameplay, as it encourages "crit fishing"... say you have a shrine before the boss, which is common. You cast the aura several times in a row until you get a crit one, then go fight the big monster.

It seems goofy that 18% of the time an RS is going to have an ultra-good aura going that'll negate the need for any other source of healing.

[smatt]

This seems bad for gameplay, as it encourages "crit fishing"... say you have a shrine before the boss, which is common. You cast the aura several times in a row until you get a crit one, then go fight the big monster.

It seems goofy that 18% of the time an RS is going to have an ultra-good aura going that'll negate the need for any other source of healing. Agreed.... I think this is a byproduct of solving the equipment change bug.... If the value is set at cast, than it makes it impossible for any equipment change or feat toggle to have any affect on it. In other words it was an easy fix, instead of what would likely be a rather large coding/debugging nightmare otherwise.

[Propane]

Any word if the healing boost (from empowered healing / RS is reduction) from 75% to 50% is a bug or is it the it is suppose to be?

If the plan is to reduce from 75 to 50, it hurts as much or more than some of the other changes...

[Angelus_dead]

Either the entire aura will crit or none of it will. All variables should be locked in at the time of casting.
Here's a suggestion:
When a spell is cast, only lock in the variables that are not the result of random number generators.

That means that if someone has items equipped coming to 15% healing criticals when the aura is cast, the aura will proceed to have a 15% chance to crit on every tick, regardless of what items the Cleric unequips afterwards.

[Darkrok]

This seems bad for gameplay, as it encourages "crit fishing"... say you have a shrine before the boss, which is common. You cast the aura several times in a row until you get a crit one, then go fight the big monster.

It seems goofy that 18% of the time an RS is going to have an ultra-good aura going that'll negate the need for any other source of healing.

Exactly. While some view this as a nerf I think it could be situationally extremely powerful. The problem is that, as you've pointed out, that power comes at a cost of some goofy gameplay.

[Lorichie]

Just logged on to confirm, at level 17 RS ticked for 19 a tick, not its ticking at 14 per tick, 28 per crit.

Also, quicken no longer works with it.

(I've never been much of a complainer, but i think i'm kinda upset about this. I'll still use it, i think, but to retouch almost every single thing about the aura after its initial release is just bad form.)

My opinion, not flaming.

Rich

[Gkar]

Ack. Really? Ouch.

Eladrin - Not to be that guy, but don't you guys think that's a little harsh? The occasional crits went a long way to mitigate the problems clerics have with mana running out. We already suffer a casting time penalty and a total mana penalty for picking the Cleric class at the generation screen. This PrE benefit went a long way to making that less of a concern. If I want a useful aura, I basically have to waste a bunch of turn attempts to get one. 16 a tick is not going to make any difference when fighting Harry or Sally.

For a point of reference - I have 9 turn attempts available to me. In order to get a "big" aura, I had to use 7 of my attempts.


Statistically it works out the same either way since a crit will now deliver a big punch for a longer time

[rest]

Did they fix the "you have to target yourself to use the burst" issue? Or is that "WAI"?

I used a "gratuitous" amount of "quotation marks" in this post. I "apologize".

[Memnir]

Did they fix the "you have to target yourself to use the burst" issue? Or is that "WAI"?

I used a "gratuitous" amount of "quotation marks" in this post. I "apologize".Nope.
And to add to the fun, my RS now has to self-target to get the aura kicking as well.


It's a cavalcade of comedy, that's for sure. I'm just not sure who is the one laughing.

[orakio]

How many total ticks do you get over the duration of 1 cast of it? I thought it was reported to have ~1min20sec to 1min30 sec duration and a tick time between 2 and 3 seconds.

So at worst (1min20, 3 sec ticks) you are getting 373hp per character per use and at best(1min30, 2 sec ticks, crit) you are getting 1260 hp per character per use, and this is at level 17 on characters with no healing amp i am assuming. The simple fact is the ability isn't bad still, clerics aren't bad and this PrE is still extremely effective when you consider the aura as well as the empower healing effectiveness (almost never need to use maximize) and the turn regeneration.

Anybody who is upset over the PrE needs to just stop and take a look at what they are getting not at what they almost got or had for a short while. Compare the class with PrE against no PrE and you see a monumental difference at a really marginal cost (have to pick up empowered healing). Does this PrE make you a FvS? No... if you wanted to be a FvS then roll one. The simple fact is Clerics are not favored souls and the only reason FvS is so in demand is cause the divine spell list has little depth to it unlike arcane spell list for wiz vs. sorc. If you had to make choices on spells let alone really significant tiers like 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells then Cleric would be in a much much better situation after this PrE than a FvS at least until FvS see's their own PrE.

[Angelus_dead]

Statistically it works out the same either way since a crit will now deliver a big punch for a longer time
That's an oversimplification which ignores factors such as overhealing, crit fishing, and the players' awareness of aura strength.

[rest]

Nope.
And to add to the fun, my RS now has to self-target to get the aura kicking as well.


It's a cavalcade of comedy, that's for sure. I'm just not sure who is the one laughing.

holy christ. you're kidding right? C'mon Mem this is all a setup for you to deliver some devastatingly hilarious pictures to make everything all better. Right? RIIIIGHT????

[Memnir]

holy christ. you're kidding right? C'mon Mem this is all a setup for you to deliver some devastatingly hilarious pictures to make everything all better. Right? RIIIIGHT????Not all the time - but it seems like after a burst, I have to self-target em. :(

[Montegue]

Statistically it works out the same either way since a crit will now deliver a big punch for a longer time

Not really. Yes, if you extend the amount over an infinite amount of time, you get roughly equal numbers. But that doesn't really help with actual in game utility. Previously, every aura I put up would have a chance to crit on every tic on every person. That's significantly more useful in the context of actual combat situations than an aura that *might* tick a crit every time on all people every now and again.

Especially since any non-crit tick is somewhat meaningless in the context of combat. 18hp a tic is nothing compared to the possibility of 60pt ticks on various people during any given aura duration.

[Visty]

Not really. Yes, if you extend the amount over an infinite amount of time, you get roughly equal numbers. But that doesn't really help with actual in game utility. Previously, every aura I put up would have a chance to crit on every tic on every person. That's significantly more useful in the context of actual combat situations than an aura that *might* tick a crit every time on all people every now and again.

Especially since any non-crit tick is somewhat meaningless in the context of combat. 18hp a tic is nothing compared to the possibility of 60pt ticks on various people during any given aura duration.

and 60pt ticks for the entire duration are better then then just a few crits here and there, esp as the normal ticks dont count accodring to you

[Montegue]

and 60pt ticks for the entire duration are better then then just a few crits here and there, esp as the normal ticks dont count accodring to you


I entirely disagree. Those 60pt auras happen randomly, sometimes not at all. I just got done running every single IQ dungeon and mindsunder. I had 1 aura crit at a time when it was mostly wasted. I would much rather have the consistency of every aura having a chance to crit on every person in the radius every tick. It is *significantly* more likely to heal more effectively.

Look at it this way -

When the aura was up before, I had an 18% chance for a 60pt heal on every target in range every tick.

Now, I have a 20% chance for massive heal every tick to everyone in range.

The former was much more useful. With the latter, 80% of the time the aura ticks for a non-helpful amount of healing on every single tick on every single target in range. With the former, I could expect many ticks to crit in the course of an aura. It was a *lot* more consistent in terms of usefulness.

[Visty]

I entirely disagree. Those 60pt auras happen randomly, sometimes not at all. I just got done running every single IQ dungeon and mindsunder. I had 1 aura crit at a time when it was mostly wasted. I would much rather have the consistency of every aura having a chance to crit on every person in the radius every tick. It is *significantly* more likely to heal more effectively.

Look at it this way -

When the aura was up before, I had an 18% chance for a 60pt heal on every target in range every tick.

Now, I have a 20% chance for massive heal every tick to everyone in range.

The former was much more useful. With the latter, 80% of the time the aura ticks for a non-helpful amount of healing on every single tick on every single target in range. With the former, I could expect many ticks to crit in the course of an aura. It was a *lot* more consistent in terms of usefulness.

recast it till it crits, problem solved

[khaldan]

recast it till it crits, problem solved

So, on top of the extend nerf, you expect clerics to waste 5+ charges of turn undead for a 90 second aura?

Please tell me you're joking.

[Visty]

So, on top of the extend nerf, you expect clerics to waste 5+ charges of turn undead for a 90 second aura?

Please tell me you're joking.

if he really thinks the normal tick is worthless, why bother with it?

i for myself think the normal aura is still viable, but he says its worthless

if its worhtless, why not just recast it, till it crits?

[khaldan]

if he really thinks the normal tick is worthless, why bother with it?

i for myself think the normal aura is still viable, but he says its worthless

if its worhtless, why not just recast it, till it crits?

Please, recast the aura until it crits during a fight. I'll wait as you end up getting your party killed.

[Visty]

Please, recast the aura until it crits during a fight. I'll wait as you end up getting your party killed.

jep, you really havent understood my post

[smatt]

Please, recast the aura until it crits during a fight. I'll wait as you end up getting your party killed.


Hmm.... My partys didn't die before RS, nor with RS as it was.. And I'm guessing they wont' after.. RS is like bonus FREE healing.. It makes a clerics life easier... It's NOT somethign to count on.. I liked it the way it was sure.... It was nice to stand by in major fights and toss 1/3 of the heals I would normally toss out.. End up after the big raids with 1/2 my mana left when before I would be empty or darn near at the end... Not a fan of the check for crit on cast thing.. But I'm doubting the Dev team has the time to cod eit differently.. At lesat not in the near future..

[Tarnoc]

Hmm.... My partys didn't die before RS, nor with RS as it was.. And I'm guessing they wont' after.. RS is like bonus FREE healing.. It makes a clerics life easier... It's NOT somethign to count on.. I liked it the way it was sure.... It was nice to stand by in major fights and toss 1/3 of the heals I would normally toss out.. End up after the big raids with 1/2 my mana left when before I would be empty or darn near at the end... Not a fan of the check for crit on cast thing.. But I'm doubting the Dev team has the time to cod eit differently.. At lesat not in the near future..

so heres the whole issue....with the RS the way it was ....it was worth taking all the boss damage flung at you to stand in with the arua ......now the big question is it still worth the cleric themselves taking the damage from standing in on the meellee fight to give them 19 per click.....over the 26 i had before and random crits

[Visty]

so heres the whole issue....with the RS the way it was ....it was worth taking all the boss damage flung at you to stand in with the arua ......now the big question is it still worth the cleric themselves taking the damage from standing in on the meellee fight to give them 19 per click.....over the 26 i had before and random crits

you can also grab a shield and sit there shieldblocking with your DR of 25 or more

[khaldan]

you can also grab a shield and sit there shieldblocking with your DR of 25 or more

Not all bosses do only melee damage.

And to the person who said RS is like free healing, it's 9 APs, more if you count the prayers. I'm sure you can think of what to do with 9 APs.

[Riggs]

It seems metamagics were taken out entirely with the aura. No Quicken, extend, empower etc.

Maybe it helped reduce some bug(but now you have to self target), but the lower healing is lame.

Clerics took 4 years to get love, and right after they got something cool it was immediately nurfed.

Fine, leave metamagics out. But raise the base healing.