Monk is easy-mode

[ProdigalGuru]

Discuss

[Chai]

I would say no. Most of the high level and raid content that has been soloed has been done by other classes. Monks are also harder to gear and when not geared right, function alot worse than another class that isnt geared right.

[SINIBYTE]

Discuss

Cool story, bro. Video games are hard.

[t0r012]

in the low level content , yep monks are easymode.
once you get past say 12 or so things begin to get tougher.

[Resilian]

in the low level content , yep monks are easymode.
once you get past say 12 or so things begin to get tougher.

Probably because I'm newer, but for me this was the other way around, lol..

[Vissarion]

Favored Souls are easy mode, but as far as straight up melee classes go, I always feel a lot more survivable on my Monk than on my other characters.

They are a pain to gear, but are pretty darn fun even when you get adequate mid to upper level gear. I salivate at the prospect of double bursted ToD rings.

[Xaearth]

Monks are good for soloing...

*dungeon gets scaled down for solo party member*

Oh ****, I can't get any ki! *gulp csw pot*
Dagnabit quit dying on me and let me beat some yellow bar out of you! *gulp csw pot*
*** this quest on normal is harder than the last quest I soloed on elite!?!?!

[Lleren]

Discuss

I often tell folks that Monks cheat, while playing my Monks.

[Ybbald]

WF wiz is easy mode

[Fafnir]

Or cleric or FVS...

[PowerOfRaistlin]

this thread made me fart. that is all.

[Memnir]

Hello and welcome to DDO Coffee Talk!
Monks, easy button? And what's with all the pajamas... get dressed already!

Discuss.
.
.
.
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad116/Memnir/Linda_Richman.jpg
.
.
.
Now I'm all verklmempt!

[Alexandryte]

The easiest class is the one you find your play-style most in tune with...or the one that you see someone else do some stuff you cannot currently do/lack the skill to pull off.

Ive seen some spectacular feats from all classes, turning the tide in pugs when all normal hope would have been lost....its more a matter of the player and how well they can perform with a class than the class alone.

That said, anything that possesses the ability to heal (or remembers that all classes have access to such (with no penalty for potion chain chugging)) becomes easier to manipulate. Its just a matter of learning how to finesse with the tools you are alloted or actively choose.

[t0r012]

Monks are good for soloing...

*dungeon gets scaled down for solo party member*

Oh ****, I can't get any ki! *gulp csw pot*
Dagnabit quit dying on me and let me beat some yellow bar out of you! *gulp csw pot*
*** this quest on normal is harder than the last quest I soloed on elite!?!?!

LOL yes you sir have definitely been soloing your monk.
Only a true enlightened knows that it is less resource intensive to run a monk on higher difficulties than the lowers.

+1

[SolarDawning]

A character of any class, properly geared and constructed by a knowledgeable player, is easymode.

[Josito]

No.

/thread

[Deified]

Discuss

/1 monk, /2 monk, or--for some classes--/3 monk is easy mode.

[Quijonsith]

/1 monk, /2 monk, or--for some classes--/3 monk is easy mode.

When I started reading that my mind started with " /1 monk, /2 monk, /red monk, /blue monk"

[gott_ist_tot]

/red monk && /blue monk == /purple monk

[Veriden]

When I started reading that my mind started with " /1 monk, /2 monk, /red monk, /blue monk"

/1 monk, /2 monk, /red monk, /dead monk

[YakoSpiritFist]

Remember teh Monkfish?

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4968/monkfish.jpg (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/monkfish.jpg/)

[Arel]

This thread is officially...

http://orenamram.co.il/forums/images/17.gif

[Quijonsith]

This thread is officially...

http://orenamram.co.il/forums/images/17.gif

The body of the OP just said 'discuss'. Kinda hard to keep a topic around that and a title.

[Arel]

The body of the OP just said 'discuss'. Kinda hard to keep a topic around that and a title.

Exactly my point.

[Arsont]

/rant on

Nope, not agreeing with "monks are easy mode". Ever played a monk past level 12? Ugh. First off, if you screw up your starting build, just reroll. In my experience, monks are VERY stat intensive (Same with paladins-work better with 32 pt build, even better with more). Monks are also heavily gear intensive. Like my drow monk. I'll be spending the next several weeks farming runes for my DT, farming taps for Minos, and farming for Devouts. And this is at level 18 (Would have started sooner, but I'm not in a rush). Of course, this is more a problem for light monks, now that darkies have ToD...but it's pretty similar either way. Not saying that other classes don't require farming for gear, but really....one of the most useful monk weapons is a ML 8 handwrap that requires flagging/being flagged (Or having an opener), then requires running around for 10, 15 minutes (If you know the pattern for the instance) gathering stuff for an OPTIONAL end chest, only to have a LOW drop rate (2, 5%? In my 20 runs, I have yet to see a pair drop in a full party). Or, of course, you could blow the 2mil pp that a similar pair (+1 Metalline of PG) were going for on the AH (On Sarlona anyhow). I don't see any other melee class having this problem. Same problem with monk armor. Two best things for a monk? Icy Rayments or Dragon Touched. Icy are a rare drop (But not unbearably rare-just more competition for them. Bloody Expoiters), and DT.....well, good luck getting all the effects you want on that. The grind can take forever. I don't see melee having that much trouble in the armor department (Except for some high AC builds).

Those struggles alone make sense that a properly geared and played monk would -seem- to be "easy mode"; After all, you spent forever and a day gearing it and learning the class, not to mention the time spent leveling.

Personally, if you want to point at an "easy button", I'd say look to WF Sorcs (Wizards too, but sorc can nuke more). Self healing, massive AoE damage (As opposed to the single/double target a monk can take on at a time), self buffs, immunities....how do those bloody constructs keep reproducing!? But that's just my opinion.

IBTL.

/rant
/offtopic

[sirdanile]

Monks are good for soloing...

*dungeon gets scaled down for solo party member*

Oh ****, I can't get any ki! *gulp csw pot*
Dagnabit quit dying on me and let me beat some yellow bar out of you! *gulp csw pot*
*** this quest on normal is harder than the last quest I soloed on elite!?!?!

Exactly.

"You must spread..."

[Quarterling]

No.

The ranger is the easy button you are looking for.

It took me three attempts until I finally made a monk that was actually capable of being useful. I would say monks are hard to manage because they need to have nearly all their stats nicely balanced out, much unlike a caster such as a wizard (max intelligence, max constitution, you're done).

[Lleren]

Remember teh Monkfish?

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4968/monkfish.jpg (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/monkfish.jpg/)

That reminds me of my Dark path Monk. =D

But in a good way.

[ProdigalGuru]

1. Monks move faster.
2. Inherent Featherfall.
3. Inherent (and useful) Spell Resistance.
4. Inherent Disease Immunity.
5. Inherent Poison Immunity.
6. Abundant Step (Unique).
7. Wholeness of Body (no pots or wands required).
8. Attack Speed on par with Tempest.
9. Ki is mana you can replenish without a shrine.
10. Quivering Palm = at-will Vorpal.
11. Good AC without even trying.
12. Good saves without even trying.
13. Improved Evasion.
14. Plenty of Feats.
15. Inherent DR Bypass.

Hard to gear? Only for the very END of the endgame.

It would not be hard to level to 10- COMPLETELY NAKED.

[tanzer]

Monks are good for soloing...

*dungeon gets scaled down for solo party member*
*** this quest on normal is harder than the last quest I soloed on elite!?!?!

funny, because elite doesn't scale for party size.... solo/6/12 man.. elite's elite

[Jasam01]

I've run into that issue once or twice. Mobs die too quickly die to something making it 'easyer', unable to maintain ki, best ki abilitys are unusable -> ends up harder overall.

[TheBroken_JPK]

1. Monks move faster.
2. Inherent Featherfall.
3. Inherent (and useful) Spell Resistance.
4. Inherent Disease Immunity.
5. Inherent Poison Immunity.
6. Abundant Step (Unique).
7. Wholeness of Body (no pots or wands required).
8. Attack Speed on par with Tempest.
9. Ki is mana you can replenish without a shrine.
10. Quivering Palm = at-will Vorpal.
11. Good AC without even trying.
12. Good saves without even trying.
13. Improved Evasion.
14. Plenty of Feats.
15. Inherent DR Bypass.

Hard to gear? Only for the very END of the endgame.

It would not be hard to level to 10- COMPLETELY NAKED.

Let's look at WF Wiz/Sorc.

1) Firewall
2) Self heals
3) Expedious Retreat
4) Everyone wants to group with one.

Since when do STR monks have good AC? My AC is 23 at level 11. I think that is the same as my WF wiz. Both are easy classes to level up. Actually what is a hard class to level up solo? Rogue?

[ProdigalGuru]

Let's look at WF Wiz/Sorc.

1) Firewall
2) Self heals
3) Expeditious Retreat
4) Everyone wants to group with one.

Since when do STR monks have good AC? My AC is 23 at level 11. I think that is the same as my WF wiz. Both are easy classes to level up. Actually what is a hard class to level up solo? Rogue?

1. You don't get firewall for quite some time. Relevant mobs are Fire Immune.
2. Wholeness of body/FoL/ or my favorite Dragonmarked Halfling (heal self and others trumps self heal)
3. I can get a clicky and am still faster.
4. Got any facts to back this? Ill take a low level Monk over a low level Sorc ANY day.

What is a STR Monk? If your stats are not balanced, you are probably doing it wrong. 23 AC at level 11 means you are hurting for gear AND you neglected both DEX and WIS. Shame. For clarification, I said easy to level up NAKED, and I meant it. No clothes, jewelry, armor, or weapons. Try that with your Sorc.

More comparison:
SP can run out, Ki is infinite.
Kiting and Firewalling takes quite a bit longer than a Quivering Palm or Touch of Death.
Monks don't need to spend half their SP buffing to be solo-capable.

I will admit that killing hordes of Rats/Spiders/Bats/Scorpions is quicker on a Sorc, and Finger of Death/Banishment are pretty devastating with good gear.

[tanzer]

4. Got any facts to back this? Ill take a low level Monk over a low level Sorc ANY day.

4 out of 5 dentists agree.... firewalls destroy plaque and tartar build up! in high demand in this hack and slash world we live in

[Xyzima]

my 3 favorite characters.

WF Wiz.. mostly because the only thing a sorc has over wis is casting speed.
while Wiz has Feats, Spell selection, and amounts of spells available at once. as well as prc's. higher DC's(sorcs do get a bit better damage). Honestly I think the Spell point comparison is a joke. A 20 Human 18 cha base sorc. and a level 20 wf 18 int base wiz. has only about 300-400 spell points difference with the same equipment. and reletive enhancements/ability points. and i know a sorcs max theoretical sp is about 3500 or so, while wiz are 2700. i dont feel like taking mental toughness, improved mental toughness. and the sorc past life mental toughness on a sorc for that 315 extra sp.

Halfling Monk, my favorite Melee character. high saves/ac, and all the benefits previously mentioned. its fun to run and jump farther than/faster than any other class.. albiet i am thinking 12 monk/8 rogue. because mos benefits of monk stop after 12. (assuming a dark monk, i lose. 10 concentration +1 ki gen from capstoone, 10/epic DR, tier 4 stances, an average of 4 damage from fists, 2 ac, some run speed(still be faster than everything but pure monks, 2 total fort and will saves, innate spell resistance of 30) while gaining. (5d6 sneak attack dice, trapmaking/finding. UMD maxable, the rogue sneak attack enhancements, rogue haste boost(stacks with wind stance), improved uncanny dodge, for what thats worth, assassin poisons, roughly 5 increase in ref save from 20 monk, whatever rogue enhancements i didnt think of.) not all that bad of a trade off.

and 3rd. Human 20 FvS, of the Silver Flame, Max wis based nuker, with free searing lights and the light/good tree's maxed, and the healing trees almost maxed(i think i sacrificed some of the crit damage of the heals).

[imblo99]

1. Monks move faster.
2. Inherent Featherfall.
3. Inherent (and useful) Spell Resistance.
4. Inherent Disease Immunity.
5. Inherent Poison Immunity.
6. Abundant Step (Unique).
7. Wholeness of Body (no pots or wands required).
8. Attack Speed on par with Tempest.
9. Ki is mana you can replenish without a shrine.
10. Quivering Palm = at-will Vorpal.
11. Good AC without even trying.
12. Good saves without even trying.
13. Improved Evasion.
14. Plenty of Feats.
15. Inherent DR Bypass.

Hard to gear? Only for the very END of the endgame.

It would not be hard to level to 10- COMPLETELY NAKED.

I find monks easier to lvl for the above reasons. Sure, spellcasters are powerful with their buffs but even that requires some thought and action. With a monk, you can pretty much wade in and autoattack and not worry so much (or at least not worry any more than other melee classes).

Getting decent gear at high levels on the other hand is probably harder.

[t0r012]

albiet i am thinking 12 monk/8 rogue. because mos benefits of monk stop after 12

say what? your kidding right?
dr 10/epic and 2d10 base damage and natural spell resistance don't do it for ya?

[Quijonsith]

say what? your kidding right?
dr 10/epic and 2d10 base damage and natural spell resistance don't do it for ya?

Xyzima mentioned all of those right after what you quoted, then listed the trade offs of what would be gained with 8 rogue. Everyone has their own taste for acceptable trade offs. My intimitank is 12 monk.

[Seliana]

Comments in green.


1. Monks move faster.
2. Inherent Featherfall. Easily slotted on a number of gear slots, I guess saving a gear slot situationaly is kind of nice.
3. Inherent (and useful) Spell Resistance. I have significant doubts that this applies the majority of the time, due to most enemy casters throw area effect damage far more often then status effects.
4. Inherent Disease Immunity. This is something a quick potion can fix on any other class
5. Inherent Poison Immunity. This is something a quick potion can fix on any other class
6. Abundant Step (Unique). Duplicate of the wings ability of the favored soul, but can be used less often. 10 ki is a far higher cost then 5 sp.
7. Wholeness of Body (no pots or wands required). This is out of combat healing only, and about as fast as drinking a few CSW potions.
8. Attack Speed on par with Tempest. Recently nerfed. Also tempest get 20% more offhand attacks then a monk due to recent changes.
9. Ki is mana you can replenish without a shrine. Ki will also deplenish when not in combat, "Free mana" as you refer to it is only temporary mana.
10. Quivering Palm = at-will Vorpal. LOL, Have you actually attempted to use this in level 16+ content? It doesn't work at all unless you built a monk with 40 wisdom and destroyed all of your other stats.
11. Good AC without even trying. Not True. It's actually terrible AC even if you do try.
12. Good saves without even trying. This is only true if you create a very balanced character when designing stats and spend a slot on a +5 resistance item.
13. Improved Evasion.
14. Plenty of Feats.
15. Inherent DR Bypass. This is not useful DR bypass though. It could eventually change in 2 to 3 years when dev's finally add named handwraps beyond level 8, or greensteel handwraps, or tier3 of the prestige class. What other class needs to equip a level 8 weapon to melee raid bosses?

This list also doesn't mention the negatives.

16. The class has no enhancements that add to base physical damage which could be useful for criticals such as weapon specialization. All enhancements for monks only tier on special effects such as ki strikes or special damage such as tod or sneak attack.
17. The class has a base critical of 20/x2. This is the worst possible critical range and critical multiplier in game for any melee class.
18. This class is twice as stat intensive as any other class in the game.
19. No matter how hard you struggle to get AC you will never outdo the fighter and paladin classes for AC. Additionally, you can not possibly get useful AC in epic content. Monks are also supposed to be known for being an AC class. Yet Paladins and Fighters can easily surpass them significantly
20. Monks have no class based toughness enhancements.
21. Monk damage is statistically the lowest melee dps in game of any melee class.
22. Monks main attack stance gives -2 to con.
23. Monks are comically action point starved. To the point of some attacks like void strike costing 65/80 AP just to acquire.
24. Monk handwraps have artificially inflated levels without any reason or purpose. See this example (http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5195/whatgives.jpg), and this example (http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8cc31b3127ccec580c523d97700000040O00AaMnLRo2bNG QPbz4e/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)

I'm sure there are several negatives missing from my list as well. The forums generally sees one of these threads every few weeks and each time its someone assuming monks are finally a good class given patch and update changes to them, and really nothing has changed significantly to make that happen. Maybe if the tier 3 shintao prestige gave metaline, and touch of death had no cooldown we might finally see some class balance, but that will probably never happen. Maybe if the monks centered ac bonus added 15-20 points instead of 5 to compensate for paladin and fighter ac it could be considered class balance, but that will probably never happen.

Currently Monks have too low dps, and too low ac to be considered useful at either aspect. Specializing in one side or the other is less useful then another dps or another tank in that same role, and attempting to do ac and dps at the same time makes you even more worthless in a raid slot. Monks aren't brought to tower of despair because its a good class selection, they are brought because they are friends with the raid leader, or the 60 second stun buff makes the end fight easier.

[ProdigalGuru]

16. The class has no enhancements, such as weapon specialization, that add to base physical damage. All enhancements for monks only tier on special effects such as Ki strikes or special damage such as ToD or sneak attack.
17. The class has a base critical of 20/x2. This is the worst possible critical range and critical multiplier in game for any melee class.
18. This class is twice as stat intensive as any other class in the game.
19. No matter how hard you struggle to get AC you will never outdo the fighter and paladin classes for AC. Additionally, you can not possibly get useful AC in epic content. Monks are also supposed to be known for being an AC class. Yet Paladins and Fighters can easily surpass them significantly
20. Monks have no class based toughness enhancements.
21. Monk damage is statistically the lowest melee DPS in game of any melee class.
22. Monks main attack stance gives -2 to con.
23. Monks are comically action point starved. To the point of some attacks like void strike costing 65/80 AP just to acquire.
24. Monk hand wraps have artificially inflated levels without any reason or purpose. See this example (http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5195/whatgives.jpg), and this example (http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8cc31b3127ccec580c523d97700000040O00AaMnLRo2bNG QPbz4e/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/)

I'm sure there are several negatives missing from my list as well. The forums generally sees one of these threads every few weeks and each time its someone assuming monks are finally a good class given patch and update changes to them, and really nothing has changed significantly to make that happen. Maybe if the tier 3 Shintao prestige gave Metalline, and touch of death had no cool-down we might finally see some class balance, but that will probably never happen. Maybe if the monks centered ac bonus added 15-20 points instead of 5 to compensate for paladin and fighter ac it could be considered class balance, but that will probably never happen.

Currently, Monks have too low DPS, and too low ac to be considered useful at either aspect. Specializing in one side or the other is less useful then another DPS or another tank in that same role, and attempting to do AC and DPS at the same time makes you even more worthless in a raid slot. Monks aren't brought to tower of despair because its a good class selection, they are brought because they are friends with the raid leader, or the 60 second stun buff makes the end fight easier.

I just HAD to respond to this! Have you ever actually PLAYED a Monk? Reading your comments lead me to believe you have not. Have you ever leveled a character to 20? Again, my gut says no.

So a few retorts:
1. You completely ignore the MASSIVE benefits of fast movement. You simply zoom, best part of being Monkish.
2-5. Not needing gear slots for immunity items is HUGE. Never having to buy numerous potions is huge. Never having to stop swinging to chug a pot is huge. Spell resistance is far from useless, and AoE spells are easily avoided with things like Improved Evasion and Fast Movement.
6. SP has finite limits, Ki does not. This comment really shows a lack of Monk experience. Oh yeah, do I have to mention this is coupled with Slow Fall and Fast Movement, making it BETTER than the FvS ability? Do I have to mention you can use it as a Sprint Boost?
7. Potions are not FREE and LIMITLESS, and the beauty is they can still be used for in-combat heals.
8. Your comment here is irrelevant. And ON PAR WITH does not mean EXACTLY THE SAME AS.
9. Again, this shows a lack of Monk experience. High Concentration allows you to carry quite a lot of Ki for a very long time. The beauty here is that most times when you need it, it isn't all that much, and you are building more at the same time.
10. This just SMACKS of repeating what you have heard/read with no actual experience. I regularly use QP successfully, and do NOT need a 40 WIS. Exaggerations do not help your case.
11. This comment just seems mean-spirited with no basis in fact at all.
12. Monks save slots on a LOT of gear (see above), and check you math, you are wrong.
13-14. Again, you completely ignore these MASSIVE benefits, and their synergy with other benefits.
15. Raid bosses are a very small section of the game. Also, random generated loot is easily obtainable to fill gaps in DR Bypassing. I find available DR Bypass quite useful.

As far as your drawbacks go:

16. No enhancements for our base weapon? Check again: not only is it there, it costs ZERO action points.
17. More inexperience shows through here. Critical Hit profile is irrelevant against a large portion of mobs. It also does not take into account things like Karmic Strike (100% critical chance) or Fists of Iron (+1 Multiplier). Also, Monks can still use weapons with higher profiles (SS/LS/HA).
18. Exaggeration at best. I would argue that Paladins are still more stat-intensive.
19. Go figure, Full Plate and Shield beats out Unarmored. However, it's not by a huge margin, and AC is all but useless end-game, anyways.
20. This is true, and a significant drawback, however, they DO have enough feats to get multiple toughness, and animal paths that can increase HP or decrease damage (resists).
21. I would like to see your evidence supporting this. My dark Monk regularly out-damages most other melee, especially with Ninja Spy II. Do I have to mention Stunning Fist here?
22. IMO the benefits of Earth Stance are much greater than Wind Stance, especially since U5 changes.
23. YUP. As with ALL classes, it would be nice if we could just get everything, but we can't.
24. IMO the level restrictions on NON-wraps is too low. But I suppose non-Monk gimps need some sort of hand up.

And finally:
No cool-down on ToD? 20 AC bonus? These comments are just silly exaggerations, again. Are you claiming that for a class to be any good it must be an invincible 100% insta-killer? What exactly do you consider to be super-powerful if NOT Monk? I can only /facepalm at the rest.

[Seliana]

I just HAD to respond to this! Have you ever actually PLAYED a Monk? Reading your comments lead me to believe you have not. Have you ever leveled a character to 20? Again, my gut says no.

Yes actually, I have played a monk all the way to level 20. I played my monk through every raid in game and even in epic content as well. What I listed are my impressions of the class in the 3 roles I have had mine in. During my several months as a monk in DDO I have built a dark path pure dps with no ac and all strength type, lesser reincarnated that into an all AC dex and wisdom build, and then lesser reincarnated that into a balanced build of both ac and dps. I spent time and effort gearing out each incarnation for each of the three roles I played my monk in. I then sat and watched multiple other classes outperform me in both aspects of the game for each of those roles. I watched capped barbarians run around with an epic sos critting for 700's every few seconds, I also watched intimitank paladins and fighters take no damage on raid bosses where as I could not come close to having decent AC vs raid trash mobs. They did this while making very few sacrifices for these abilities as well. Both sides outperformed the monk class with twice the hp as well as more damage or more ac, for equal or less effort then what the monk needs to put in, all while spending less action points and resources to do it.

This conclusion wasn't due to a lack of research either, I spent months on the forums reading and searching out different types of builds that could possibly do something useful with the class, I would acquire the gear all of the other forum posters would use, building for the stats and abilities other players recommended. Please don't assume this is a lack of game mechanics knowledge, exaggeration, or other fluff. I've been playing D&D since 2nd edition, and I have DM'ed 3rd edition for 10+ years. I know what class balance is when I see it, and I just don't see it here. Not to bring casters into the discussion but I also don't feel wizards and sorcerers are balanced either. Some classes have incredible major advantages over others in DDO without any reasonable or comparable disadvantages to make up for it.

If you don't believe I've done all of this with a monk, go myddo my character Invalid (http://my.ddo.com/character/cannith/invalid/) on Cannith. I worked very hard trying to make something decent of the monk class or find some aspect in which it performed well in endgame content.

When that failed I went and true reincarnated my monk into a cleric.

[Maegin]

Yes actually, I have played a monk all the way to level 20. I played my monk through every raid in game and even in epic content as well. What I listed are my impressions of the class in the 3 roles I have had mine in. During my several months as a monk in DDO I have built a dark path pure dps with no ac and all strength type, lesser reincarnated that into an all AC dex and wisdom build, and then lesser reincarnated that into a balanced build of both ac and dps. I spent time and effort gearing out each incarnation for each of the three roles I played my monk in. I then sat and watched multiple other classes outperform me in both aspects of the game for each of those roles. I watched capped barbarians run around with an epic sos critting for 700's every few seconds, I also watched intimitank paladins and fighters take no damage on raid bosses where as I could not come close to having decent AC vs raid trash mobs. They did this while making very few sacrifices for these abilities as well. Both sides outperformed the monk class with twice the hp as well as more damage or more ac, for equal or less effort then what the monk needs to put in, all while spending less action points and resources to do it.

This conclusion wasn't due to a lack of research either, I spent months on the forums reading and searching out different types of builds that could possibly do something useful with the class, I would acquire the gear all of the other forum posters would use, building for the stats and abilities other players recommended. Please don't assume this is a lack of game mechanics knowledge, exaggeration, or other fluff. I've been playing D&D since 2nd edition, and I have DM'ed 3rd edition for 10+ years. I know what class balance is when I see it, and I just don't see it here. Not to bring casters into the discussion but I also don't feel wizards and sorcerers are balanced either. Some classes have incredible major advantages over others in DDO without any reasonable or comparable disadvantages to make up for it.

If you don't believe I've done all of this with a monk, go myddo my character Invalid (http://my.ddo.com/character/cannith/invalid/) on Cannith. I worked very hard trying to make something decent of the monk class or find some aspect in which it performed well in endgame content.

When that failed I went and true reincarnated my monk into a cleric.

Hm... interesting.

Well, thats definately good food for thougth. I'm glad to see someones point of view from this angle. I too feel there is some truth behinde it all. But monks, like my favorite class bard, are just that. Support. The days of pajama wearing super ac guys out-doing the fighters and paladins with full plate and tower shield are gone when the ranger/monk splash came into full power, showing how deadly/not-right it was. Monks, having to rely on mobility, are just that. Sure they get AC, but nothing thats ment to stand there and take hits, thats the fighter and paladins job/role. Monks, like bards, do best when setting things up for the kill, i.e. stunning fist/light water finisher/ etc, for the classes that have a sole purpose to do so, i.e. your barbs and dpsers. Sure they can hold their own to an extent, but wearing no armor, really stresses being mobile. Sure, your toons AC on his character sheet reads 68, but thats not to say you can't, oh idk, be flanking or not have aggro to have to worry about it. (easier said than done, but look at it, the whole class is full of options for setting things up, or resist being set up)

To the guy defending the monk, I say your doing it wrong. You cannot compare, as sel has discovered, monk to another class since its apples to oranges. Monk's arnt barbarians. Monk's arn't ac fighters/pallys. Monk's arnt super nuke damage (hence tod timer), monk's arn't bards (hence bonuses to attack sure, but bards are wanted for bonuses to damage), Monk's arn't rogues (all fancy/mobile like a rogue, but can't replace him) etc. etc. etc. Monk's are monk's (it its most redundant state). Now you know what monks arn't, so now you figure out what monks are. Monk's, imho, can in one way be defined as a 'specialist- specializing in advantage by situation, not direct action. Build accordingly.

[Aeneas]

Remember teh Monkfish?

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4968/monkfish.jpg (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/monkfish.jpg/)

His tail looks delicious.

[Thechemicals]

Discuss

Monks are overpowered and this is being kept quiet by players. It is a boring experience to watch a monk quest with you from levels 8-12, they pretty much kill everything, save against all things, and can take multiple attacks from mobs.

The 2 most extreme situations i have seen so far were a monk in a dungeon 1 level higher than him on hard(he was 10) standing in a trap that he endlessly successfully saved while fighting 4 creatures and killing them all under 6-10 seconds and taking less than 5 dmg.

The 2nd was even more grossly overpowered as the monk, on elite, same level as dungeon, moves so far ahead of the party that he single handedly killed 2 beholders in under 5 seconds except that he went afk during a 3rd and the whole while the beholder blasts him for about 10 seconds, he comes back and kills that beholder as well. All the time the party hardly kills anything since this monk is just steamrolling everything in the dungeon.

I have only seen the monk from levels 1-12 so far and even if they have a tougher time later... they are definatly overpowered from 8-12.

[ProdigalGuru]

You get what you pay for.

[Braegan]

1. Monks move faster. So do barbs
2. Inherent Featherfall. that's handy but hardly an overpowering feature
3. Inherent (and useful) Spell Resistance. so do drow
4. Inherent Disease Immunity. so do WF, or get an item or suck a pot
5. Inherent Poison Immunity. so do WF, or get an item or suck a pot
6. Abundant Step (Unique). FvS wings are stronger
7. Wholeness of Body (no pots or wands required). out of combat self-healing with a long cool down and costs ki
8. Attack Speed on par with Tempest. on par would denote balance, no one is alone at the top
9. Ki is mana you can replenish without a shrine. not really
10. Quivering Palm = at-will Vorpal. um just as powerful as someone using a vorpal
11. Good AC without even trying. good, but not over the top
12. Good saves without even trying. yes best saves are monk & fvs
13. Improved Evasion. so can rogues
14. Plenty of Feats. 3 bonus feats, fighter gets 11
15. Inherent DR Bypass. that's nice but not spectacular.

Hard to gear? Only for the very END of the endgame.

It would not be hard to level to 10- COMPLETELY NAKED. leveling to 10 is cake for any class. no gear at all most all (monk inc) would prolly get stomped out by any hard hitting ogre or troll.

I was waiting for you to elaborate before responding. I agree monks are a powerful class and I do enjoy them, but I disagree that they are overpowered or "easy-mode." All the above points you made do not prove your case.

[Diyon]

Monks are a great survivalist class. Most of their resources are unlimited to some degree, including HP (once you get Wholeness). However they are hardly overpowered. Are they more powerful at lower levels? Absolutely. At higher lvls though their dps on average drops a good bit below the other classes, especially if you're playing a light monk rather than a dark. They can be difficult to gear at high levels, primarily in the means of weapons, which are lacking. Now provided, a monk can do more dps at later levels than a character of another class, that is typically when the monk is very well built and geared, compared to a character that is not as well built or geared, but an acceptable and useful character.

What role does a monk play best? A monk is a party's emergency button. When fight goes to hell in a hand basket, monks are well equiped to save the group from a wipe via high saves, high speed, evasion/trap immunity, and over all mobility. I can't count the number of times I've saved a group from a wipe because I've ran in grabbed stones and fast movement/abundant stepped my way out of there and to a shrine. There will be pretty much no monsters that can keep up with you, ranged attack damage is a minimal threat due to its typical output and needing line of effect, and casters you're pretty likely saving/evading. Monks can get soul stones or people out of difficult situations. Also due to due the mobility and speed its pretty easy for a monk to grab a bunch of monsters attention and either run them out or around as needed when the situation calls for it. *Edit: the whole rescuing thing is also helped by the fact that a monk can often get themselves out of a bad situation, completely recover, then go back to deal with it.

Overpowered? Hardly so.
Underpowered? Monks could use a little love in the weapon/dps department, especially light monks.
Useful? Definitely.

....and I'm done now.

[Xaearth]

I just HAD to respond to this! Have you ever actually PLAYED a Monk? Reading your comments lead me to believe you have not. Have you ever leveled a character to 20? Again, my gut says no.

Have YOU ever actually played a monk? Reading your comments lead me to believe you have not. Have you ever leveled a character to 20? Again, my gut says no.

Anyone with enough intelligence and experience to build and play a monk properly through endgame could not possibly be stupid enough to imply monks are overpowered. :rolleyes:
Especially when the devs gave us the steaming pile that is Shintao.


Monks are overpowered and this is being kept quiet by players. It is a boring experience to watch a monk quest with you from levels 8-12, they pretty much kill everything, save against all things, and can take multiple attacks from mobs.

Not hardly. The problem you're experiencing is the fact that, due to the difficulty of balancing the stats to build a viable monk, most decent monks have more experience, skill, and twink gear than the average mid-level player. So yeah, a good monk is better than a bad fighter. :rolleyes:

[maddmatt70]

Touch of death should be moved back to level 18 (tier 3 of the pre) because that combined with the run speed monks get makes them unbalanced and overpowered at the low to mid levels. At the upper levels dark monks are fine and do not need a tier 3 to their pre whereas light monks need a little loving (not a ton) still.

[Erekose]

Well DDO interpretation has done their very best that a BAB +15 character gets +20, with a ******** combat mechanic called double strike which allows off hand Touch of death to hit up to 5 times.

This by far must be the worst example of how game developers can stuff things up.

Wheres my Rogue's magical mystery feat which turns his +15 BAB to +20 and while your at it, give my casters 3/4 per level instead of 1/2.

Gotta ask for it.

[Kza]

Right now most classes quite decent balanced (if choose strongest pre as class). Yes i agree monks are very easy to play and forgiving (speed/dr/hits/500strike/abundant step). But its good there are easy to play classes. I really like to play my monk, and for me the move speed increase alone makes it ubba now when the dps are as other melee classes also).

But this is talking about melees, play a fvs/cleric BB:ing all or a wf wiz/sorc and we can start talk about real forgiving classes.

For me hardest class to play good are pure rogue if you are an aggressive player, takes time learn your limits imho.

[Mecholi22]

Remember teh Monkfish?

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/4968/monkfish.jpg (http://img189.imageshack.us/i/monkfish.jpg/)
That is one scary f***in fish

[Bacab]

I like monks.

They are a good class.

Favored Soul absolutely is more overpowered. Leap of Faith is way better than Abundant Step.

I personally think 95% of all end game monks suck. They usually can not break DR...and usually are not built the correct/optimized way.

BUT! That 5% that are geared and build well (whether it the WF Dark Path hate tank or the AC build or w/e)..they are amazing. But then again...is it the monk class that is so nice? Or is it the awesome player playing the monk?

[Diyon]

Touch of death should be moved back to level 18 (tier 3 of the pre) because that combined with the run speed monks get makes them unbalanced and overpowered at the low to mid levels. At the upper levels dark monks are fine and do not need a tier 3 to their pre whereas light monks need a little loving (not a ton) still.

Touch of Death has nothing to do with monk PrE's. It is not on tiers either. You can't move it to tier 3 of "their PrE" because that doesn't exist. Getting the dark monk PrE, Ninja Spy, is independent of touch of death (you don't need the PrE ninja spy to get touch of death).

[orakio]

Well DDO interpretation has done their very best that a BAB +15 character gets +20, with a ******** combat mechanic called double strike which allows off hand Touch of death to hit up to 5 times.

This by far must be the worst example of how game developers can stuff things up.

Wheres my Rogue's magical mystery feat which turns his +15 BAB to +20 and while your at it, give my casters 3/4 per level instead of 1/2.

Gotta ask for it.

If you remember what flurry of blows did in PnP its +1 attacks per round at highest BAB with a -2to hit on all subsequent hits. so if a monk normally is 15/10/5/0 with flurry it would be 13/13/8/3/-2. Rather than giving monks 25% higher baseline attack speed, or a 25% double attack they gave them a slight hit bonus in DDO. Thats a nerf to the feat if anything any by no means imbalanced.

I will tell you where your rogues "magical mystery" ability to get to 20 BAB, get divine power clickies and call it a day. Not to mention you can pick up an additional +3 to hit while flanking from enhancements on targets that are succeptible to SA. Classes aren't the same, don't complain when one gets something you don't. There are benefits and downsides to everything, if you want the features of a monk play a monk and if you want the features of a rogue play rogue.

[maddmatt70]

Touch of Death has nothing to do with monk PrE's. It is not on tiers either. You can't move it to tier 3 of "their PrE" because that doesn't exist. Getting the dark monk PrE, Ninja Spy, is independent of touch of death (you don't need the PrE ninja spy to get touch of death).

True. this is schematics though, regardless the devs should move touch of death back to later levels and examine the run speed progression too.

I am currently leveling a paladin with my friend's monk and I can tell the huge advantages the monk has over the paladin at low to mid levels. There is touch of death which is actually superior to a paladin's smite although divine sacrifice and smite probably in conjunction are competitive with it. The dark monk has the perma blur like effect, evasion and eventually improved evasion, o.k. to good ac, etc. The paladin has a few nice things such as lay on hands, o.k. umd, resists, etc. I would prefer the monk's stuff a little more then the paladin, but the other big difference is run and attack speed and this can not be understated at the low to mid levels. The monk just always gets there before the paladin haha and I drink haste pots like a maniac, but can not keep up.

Paladins are slow in playstyle because they run like they have two left feet and they have to constantly buff themselves further slowing their action down which the monk does not have to worry about really. Its like derrick rose, or john wall, or CP3 vs. today's Shaq in the NBA. At the end game its different because monks can not zerge like they did on the lowbys, the pally has longer buffs due to higher level, haste from others is more constant, and etc.

[slimkj]

examine the run speed progression too.
Nooooooo! The quick fists have gone, please leave the quick feet alone. Make Expeditious Retreat clickies +60% or something so slowmo paladins can keep up instead. :)

[orakio]

True. this is schematics though, regardless the devs should move touch of death back to later levels and examine the run speed progression too.


I believe you meant to say "this is semantics though".

Touch of death where it is at is very viable, but if they were to move it to 18 then they would have to move the raise dead from light path to 18 as well which really isn't very viable. Perhaps a better alternative would be to make the damage scaling, 25damage per level so at level 9 its 225 damage and at level 20 it gets up to 500. Personally though I am not so sure this is necessary, plenty of classes solo exceptionally well through midgame and even lategame content and don't need a nerf so why does monk?

[maddmatt70]

I believe you meant to say "this is semantics though".

Touch of death where it is at is very viable, but if they were to move it to 18 then they would have to move the raise dead from light path to 18 as well which really isn't very viable. Perhaps a better alternative would be to make the damage scaling, 25damage per level so at level 9 its 225 damage and at level 20 it gets up to 500

Your suggestion may suffice although I would still move back the level 9 ability a little. I am not sure why a monk can do an instant high dps attack like a paladin can at low to mid levels in DDO.


Personally though I am not so sure this is necessary, plenty of classes solo exceptionally well through midgame and even lategame content and don't need a nerf so why does monk?

My statements are less about solo play although a monk will solo a quest faster then a pally, but rather my statements are about group play. Playing with monks on a non monk melee character like a pally is less fun for the pally player is the issue. Playing with a barbarian is not too bad although they are faster then a pally the reason this is so are barbarians have weaknesses like they have strengths and pallys can provide something different to complement those weaknesses such as smites and better saves both of which monks basically have. The reality is when playing with a monk the paladin just trails behind the monk the whole quest and provides less then it would if it were running with a barbarian while doing so.

Monks have less weaknesses then a barbarian and of course can basically do everything a pally can do including their own smite ability (touch of death).

I enjoy playing my paladin and I think paladins in D&D are a great class, but Paladins do not play out that well at the low to mid levels in DDO. Mobs are so weak and pallys are full plate wearing slow footed tough encounter characters as designed in DDO but the way the game is made at low level and mid levels mobs are pretty trivial other then red names and monks can do the same thing on red names (touch of death) pallys can so what gives. The overriding question is why even have paladins in DDO at the low to mid levels why not just play a monk until end game and then lesser reincarnate a few times into a full pally.

[Lorichie]

Your suggestion may suffice although I would still move back the level 9 ability a little. I am not sure why a monk can do an instant high dps attack like a paladin can at low to mid levels in DDO.


My statements are less about solo play although a monk will solo a quest faster then a pally, but rather my statements are about group play. Playing with monks on a non monk melee character like a pally is less fun for the pally player is the issue. Playing with a barbarian is not too bad although they are faster then a pally the reason this is so are barbarians have weaknesses like they have strengths and pallys can provide something different to complement those weaknesses such as smites and better saves both of which monks basically have. The reality is when playing with a monk the paladin just trails behind the monk the whole quest and provides less then it would if it were running with a barbarian while doing so.

Monks have less weaknesses then a barbarian and of course can basically do everything a pally can do including their own smite ability (touch of death).

I enjoy playing my paladin and I think paladins in D&D are a great class, but Paladins do not play out that well at the low to mid levels in DDO. Mobs are so weak and pallys are full plate wearing slow footed tough encounter characters as designed in DDO but the way the game is made at low level and mid levels mobs are pretty trivial other then red names and monks can do the same thing on red names (touch of death) pallys can so what gives. The overriding question is why even have paladins in DDO at the low to mid levels why not just play a monk until end game and then lesser reincarnate a few times into a full pally.


Fwiw,

Yesterday i ran with a level nine, mebbe ten, dark monk, wf build. Now this guy had tr'd at least once, and has many many many toons, and is a very good player, i will give that....but...

We did a bunch of quests yesterday and in every one, this build was insane. Matt is right, for mid levels, this guy was always there first, the mob was/were always dead when we got there, he was always already on the way to the next group and i rarely ever needed to heal/support him. Quite literally, even in BAM, we **** near were unable to participate most of the time we were grouped together. (Note: nobody was complaining,no one was upset. He seemed just as happy to have folks to chat with while he was running around slaughtering everything. Fun was had by all.)

However, i dont think i've seen a build that was quite so devestating in that level range. I would put it on par with the w.o.p. builds of old.

Not all monks are like that, but those that are, stand out positively.

+1 to him, he knows who he is.

R

[SINIBYTE]

Easy mode is my WF Sorc.

[bandyman1]

If you remember what flurry of blows did in PnP its +1 attacks per round at highest BAB with a -2to hit on all subsequent hits. so if a monk normally is 15/10/5/0 with flurry it would be 13/13/8/3/-2.

It's actually better than that.

At level 5, the -2 penalty to hit lessens to -1, and at level 9 it disappears.

Also, at 11th level, the monk gains an additional attack at their highest base attack bonus.

So, actually that monk that's +15/15/5 ( 20th level in PnP ) is +15/15/15/10/5 when flurrying.

[Dark-Star]

True. this is schematics though, regardless the devs should move touch of death back to later levels and examine the run speed progression too.

I am currently leveling a paladin with my friend's monk and I can tell the huge advantages the monk has over the paladin at low to mid levels. There is touch of death which is actually superior to a paladin's smite although divine sacrifice and smite probably in conjunction are competitive with it. The dark monk has the perma blur like effect, evasion and eventually improved evasion, o.k. to good ac, etc. The paladin has a few nice things such as lay on hands, o.k. umd, resists, etc. I would prefer the monk's stuff a little more then the paladin, but the other big difference is run and attack speed and this can not be understated at the low to mid levels. The monk just always gets there before the paladin haha and I drink haste pots like a maniac, but can not keep up.

Paladins are slow in playstyle because they run like they have two left feet and they have to constantly buff themselves further slowing their action down which the monk does not have to worry about really. Its like derrick rose, or john wall, or CP3 vs. today's Shaq in the NBA. At the end game its different because monks can not zerge like they did on the lowbys, the pally has longer buffs due to higher level, haste from others is more constant, and etc.

Is this your experience with all monks? Or just one particular inconsiderate cockroach built to zerg? :o

[maddmatt70]

Is this your experience with all monks? Or just one particular inconsiderate cockroach built to zerg? :o

I played with eury, you and some other monks out there with less gear and experience of course then you and eury and can see what the drawbacks to pally and to a lesser extent fighter are at low to mid levels. Less geared and less experienced monks can keep up in a sense where they wouldn't otherwise and can likely get away with some shoddy gear.

Lay on hands is the best thing the low to mid level pallys have of course but vs. improved evasion its kind of a wash.

[ProdigalGuru]

1. Monks move faster. So do barbs. NO MONKS MOVE FASTER THAN THAT.
2. Inherent Featherfall. that's handy but hardly an overpowering feature. OP DOES NOT = EASY MODE.
3. Inherent (and useful) Spell Resistance. so do drow. NO, I MEAN USEFUL SR.
4. Inherent Disease Immunity. so do WF, or get an item or suck a pot. I DON'T NEED TO I AM A MONK HALFLING.
5. Inherent Poison Immunity. so do WF, or get an item or suck a pot. SEE ABOVE.
6. Abundant Step (Unique). FvS wings are stronger. LOOK COOLER, YES, STRONGER, NO.
7. Wholeness of Body (no pots or wands required). out of combat self-healing with a long cool down and costs ki. YES, FREE HEALS.
8. Attack Speed on par with Tempest. on par would denote balance, no one is alone at the top. QUE? THEY ARE NEARLY EQUIVALENT.
9. Ki is mana you can replenish without a shrine. not really. YES REALLY.
10. Quivering Palm = at-will Vorpal. um just as powerful as someone using a vorpal. ONLY I CAN MAKE IT PROC, HAVE BURST + PG, AND DO NOT HAVE TO BUY ANYTHING, SO MORE POWERFUL.
11. Good AC without even trying. good, but not over the top. DID I SAY OVER THE TOP?
12. Good saves without even trying. yes best saves are monk & fvs. SAYS CAPTAIN OBVIOUS.
13. Improved Evasion. so can rogues. CAN THEY QP? ABUNDANT STEP? MAKE SENSE PLEASE!
14. Plenty of Feats. 3 bonus feats, fighter gets 11. AND NONE OF THE OTHER BONUSES. SEE ABOVE.
15. Inherent DR Bypass. that's nice but not spectacular. SHOW ME THE FREE DR ON ROGUE AND FIGHTER PLEASE.

Hard to gear? Only for the very END of the endgame.

It would not be hard to level to 10- COMPLETELY NAKED. leveling to 10 is cake for any class. no gear at all most all (monk inc) would prolly get stomped out by any hard hitting ogre or troll. MONK NAKED AC IS HIGHER, AS IS MONK UNARMED DAMAGE. ANY OTHER CLASS WOULD GET PUMMELED WELL BEFORE 10.


RESPONSES IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE I LIKE TO SHOUT SOMETIMES.

[ProdigalGuru]

Yes actually, I have played a monk all the way to level 20. I played my monk through every raid in game and even in epic content as well. What I listed are my impressions of the class in the 3 roles I have had mine in. During my several months as a monk in DDO I have built a dark path pure dps with no ac and all strength type, lesser reincarnated that into an all AC dex and wisdom build, and then lesser reincarnated that into a balanced build of both ac and dps. I spent time and effort gearing out each incarnation for each of the three roles I played my monk in. I then sat and watched multiple other classes outperform me in both aspects of the game for each of those roles. I watched capped barbarians run around with an epic sos critting for 700's every few seconds, I also watched intimitank paladins and fighters take no damage on raid bosses where as I could not come close to having decent AC vs raid trash mobs. They did this while making very few sacrifices for these abilities as well. Both sides outperformed the monk class with twice the hp as well as more damage or more ac, for equal or less effort then what the monk needs to put in, all while spending less action points and resources to do it.

This conclusion wasn't due to a lack of research either, I spent months on the forums reading and searching out different types of builds that could possibly do something useful with the class, I would acquire the gear all of the other forum posters would use, building for the stats and abilities other players recommended. Please don't assume this is a lack of game mechanics knowledge, exaggeration, or other fluff. I've been playing D&D since 2nd edition, and I have DM'ed 3rd edition for 10+ years. I know what class balance is when I see it, and I just don't see it here. Not to bring casters into the discussion but I also don't feel wizards and sorcerers are balanced either. Some classes have incredible major advantages over others in DDO without any reasonable or comparable disadvantages to make up for it.

If you don't believe I've done all of this with a monk, go myddo my character Invalid (http://my.ddo.com/character/cannith/invalid/) on Cannith. I worked very hard trying to make something decent of the monk class or find some aspect in which it performed well in endgame content.

When that failed I went and true reincarnated my monk into a cleric.

19 STR and 16 CON at level 20 after gear is why you were both squishy and hit like a feather pillow. Combine this with AC being well-nigh useless at this level and I can see why you have the opinion you do.

Try a balanced build, you will not be sorry.

[endofrivers]

But then again...is it the monk class that is so nice? Or is it the awesome player playing the monk?

The awesome player behind the monk. The player needs to practice and learn how to be a monk before they are good. They have so many more roles in the party and they have so much at their disposal. They're the most unique class in the game.

[Bacab]

Prodigal Guru...

I an agree with most of what you say about monk being strong...

EXCEPT...

Leap of Faith is absolutely better than Abundant Step.

I do believe Abundant Step is the second most powerful job trait/ability in the game as far as soloing goes...only behind Leap of Faith.

Leap of Faith + Blade Barrier = no more red alert.

I know you *think* you have unlimited Abundant Step...how many in a row can you do without running out of Ki?

Can you Abundant Step a mob into your Blade Barrier? I know its apples/oranges....but LoF is just better. Mainly because it can be spammed and because it has a really nice synergy with Blade Barrier.

Abundant Step has a really nice synergy with your cruise missle running speed though. You can pick up stones and get the heck outta Dodge better than any other class. But that Favored Soul could possibly drop a Blade Barrier and kite/kill everything.

I do agree...a WELL-PLAYED monk is a Beast. But I will stick to my guns saying 95% of all monks suck.

In my guild I have some buddies that have different types of monks. A couple have that untouchable AC and can solo pretty much anything. A couple have those crazy WF Hate-tank Monks.

That is also why I like MOnks. You can make them do about anything. A Barb is a one trick pony. Monks can kinda do anything depending on the build.

Anyway play whatya like...but those Uber-Monks...I notice them...they are pretty much unstoppable.

[Braegan]

1. Monks move faster. So do barbs. NO MONKS MOVE FASTER THAN THAT. So what.
2. Inherent Featherfall. that's handy but hardly an overpowering feature. OP DOES NOT = EASY MODE. So we can strike this as an overpowering feature as it's not.
3. Inherent (and useful) Spell Resistance. so do drow. NO, I MEAN USEFUL SR. Let's be real, almost no amount of SR is useful
4. Inherent Disease Immunity. so do WF, or get an item or suck a pot. I DON'T NEED TO I AM A MONK HALFLING. Congrats
5. Inherent Poison Immunity. so do WF, or get an item or suck a pot. SEE ABOVE.
6. Abundant Step (Unique). FvS wings are stronger. LOOK COOLER, YES, STRONGER, NO. False. Wings are stronger and can be used more frequently
7. Wholeness of Body (no pots or wands required). out of combat self-healing with a long cool down and costs ki. YES, FREE HEALS. So can pallys with LoH
8. Attack Speed on par with Tempest. on par would denote balance, no one is alone at the top. QUE? THEY ARE NEARLY EQUIVALENT. What?
9. Ki is mana you can replenish without a shrine. not really. YES REALLY. Ki is not mana, comparing apples and oranges is silly.
10. Quivering Palm = at-will Vorpal. um just as powerful as someone using a vorpal. ONLY I CAN MAKE IT PROC, HAVE BURST + PG, AND DO NOT HAVE TO BUY ANYTHING, SO MORE POWERFUL. And make sure you time it right, the mob doesn't move or you waste ki, also they get a save vs QP.
11. Good AC without even trying. good, but not over the top. DID I SAY OVER THE TOP? No but I was making it clear it wasn't
12. Good saves without even trying. yes best saves are monk & fvs. SAYS CAPTAIN OBVIOUS. Resorting to name calling, really?
13. Improve d Evasion. so can rogues. CAN THEY QP? ABUNDANT STEP? MAKE SENSE PLEASE! I believe I made sense. You post a list of why you *think* monks are overpowered/easy. I tear your list apart on why monks are not alone with some of the benefits you listed.
14. Plenty of Feats. 3 bonus feats, fighter gets 11. AND NONE OF THE OTHER BONUSES. SEE ABOVE. So you claim bonus feats as a strength but disregard that another class gets 8 more feats then a monk.
15. Inherent DR Bypass. that's nice but not spectacular. SHOW ME THE FREE DR ON ROGUE AND FIGHTER PLEASE. Most of it is near useless anyway, you really don't have a way to bypass adamantine on a level 16 rog or fighter, please.

Hard to gear? Only for the very END of the endgame.

It would not be hard to level to 10- COMPLETELY NAKED. leveling to 10 is cake for any class. no gear at all most all (monk inc) would prolly get stomped out by any hard hitting ogre or troll. MONK NAKED AC IS HIGHER, AS IS MONK UNARMED DAMAGE. ANY OTHER CLASS WOULD GET PUMMELED WELL BEFORE 10. As would the monk, they just might die last.


RESPONSES IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE I LIKE TO SHOUT SOMETIMES. Next time don't shout at me it just makes it harder to take you serious.

It's nice you've discovered monks, but as mentioned above if you want an easy button, it's a WF arcane caster.

[Aschbart]

One thing I haven't seen being mentioned is the fact that monk have the shortest range attack of all classes!

This is really a huge disadvantage, especially after U5 removed twitching, which esentially means that every time a mob moves and you try to follow you're breaking your chain of attacks! This is much less of an issue for melees who use weapons that all have some reach, and thus often don't have to move to keep hitting a mob that just hopped to the side a bit. And of course no issue at all for ranged attackers.

This is also one of the reasons why you won't see many very good monks at high level in groups. When soloing, a monk has a good control over the mobs he's attacking, might anticipate their moves and time their own attacks to lose as few attacks of their chain as ossible before moving themselves. In a group however it becomes much harder, as mobs start moving in response to other players' actions, you have a harder time simply spotting the mob's exact position, and speed of combat moves up. An experieenced/good player may be able to compensate that, but one that is just learning the class (like me) has serious trouble hitting stuff. And when a monk fails to hit stuff, he won't build Ki, won't be able to use all his buffs or devastating strikes, won't be able to use wholeness of body or abundant step, or raise people, cure debuffs and other things.

Basically everything a monk can do depends on his ability to hit stuff and build Ki. If you aren't able to keep up, you not only fail to do DPS; you also fail to do all the other stuff!

For that reason alone, a monk does need the best speed buff there is in game, because without it, the whole class would break down and cease to work, as mobs start chasing or running away from other players who reach them first, causing the monk to just ventilate thin air instead of hitting the mobs that were standing just in front of him a moment ago.

At least *that* is my experience as a learning new player light monk (now level 14).

[ProdigalGuru]

Prodigal Guru...

I an agree with most of what you say about monk being strong...

EXCEPT...

Leap of Faith is absolutely better than Abundant Step.

I do believe Abundant Step is the second most powerful job trait/ability in the game as far as soloing goes...only behind Leap of Faith.

Leap of Faith + Blade Barrier = no more red alert.

I know you *think* you have unlimited Abundant Step...how many in a row can you do without running out of Ki?

Can you Abundant Step a mob into your Blade Barrier? I know its apples/oranges....but LoF is just better. Mainly because it can be spammed and because it has a really nice synergy with Blade Barrier.

Abundant Step has a really nice synergy with your cruise missle running speed though. You can pick up stones and get the heck outta Dodge better than any other class. But that Favored Soul could possibly drop a Blade Barrier and kite/kill everything.

I do agree...a WELL-PLAYED monk is a Beast. But I will stick to my guns saying 95% of all monks suck.

In my guild I have some buddies that have different types of monks. A couple have that untouchable AC and can solo pretty much anything. A couple have those crazy WF Hate-tank Monks.

That is also why I like MOnks. You can make them do about anything. A Barb is a one trick pony. Monks can kinda do anything depending on the build.

Anyway play whatya like...but those Uber-Monks...I notice them...they are pretty much unstoppable.

I can see what you are saying here... and I guess I agree.
As long as you see what I am saying about Easy-to-play, not necessarily OP.

[ProdigalGuru]

One thing I haven't seen being mentioned is the fact that monk have the shortest range attack of all classes!

This is really a huge disadvantage, especially after U5 removed twitching, which esentially means that every time a mob moves and you try to follow you're breaking your chain of attacks! This is much less of an issue for melees who use weapons that all have some reach, and thus often don't have to move to keep hitting a mob that just hopped to the side a bit. And of course no issue at all for ranged attackers.

This is also one of the reasons why you won't see many very good monks at high level in groups. When soloing, a monk has a good control over the mobs he's attacking, might anticipate their moves and time their own attacks to lose as few attacks of their chain as ossible before moving themselves. In a group however it becomes much harder, as mobs start moving in response to other players' actions, you have a harder time simply spotting the mob's exact position, and speed of combat moves up. An experieenced/good player may be able to compensate that, but one that is just learning the class (like me) has serious trouble hitting stuff. And when a monk fails to hit stuff, he won't build Ki, won't be able to use all his buffs or devastating strikes, won't be able to use wholeness of body or abundant step, or raise people, cure debuffs and other things.

Basically everything a monk can do depends on his ability to hit stuff and build Ki. If you aren't able to keep up, you not only fail to do DPS; you also fail to do all the other stuff!

For that reason alone, a monk does need the best speed buff there is in game, because without it, the whole class would break down and cease to work, as mobs start chasing or running away from other players who reach them first, causing the monk to just ventilate thin air instead of hitting the mobs that were standing just in front of him a moment ago.

At least *that* is my experience as a learning new player light monk (now level 14).

Yes.
Monk is for quick thinkers, and fast movers.

[Taimasan]

Those struggles alone make sense that a properly geared and played monk would -seem- to be "easy mode"; After all, you spent forever and a day gearing it and learning the class, not to mention the time spent leveling.


+1 to you sir.


Yea but to add to that people seem to be complaining that TR'ed monks are easy mode and they are destroying everything in the quest...ummmm what do you expect?? Im on my 2x TR for my monk and the guy had 5 pieces of epic gear that he wore on his bodah!!(no mabar stuff). I just hit 11 and when I go through these mid level quests of course im going to destroy the quest and its gonna be deal.

#1: To play a monk well you have to transcend more than stats, more than gear, you have to know your monk. Its straight playstyle, im keyed up to running 10+ epic raids/quests a day. You put me in a lowbie quest, you should probally expect me to out preform it. Epic quests are faster, less forgiving, and more challenging. An activity that tends polish the playstyle as you run epics with other people of your caliber.

#2: Gear, TR's usually have their gear basically laid out ready to be worn, all the top tier, good stuff, this can also be a factor.

But as a side note, as a monk I have found that I have has to work twice as hard for everything that I have obtained. There are classes out there who can do what I do with alot less effort. And the challenge of out preforming these classes not with brute strength and simple commands. But yet with complexity and style, which keeps me coming back to the Monk.

[CherryHaze]

Not sure there is an easy mode for monk. Many people dont play ot becous of teh "piano playing" taht u end up making while u play .. sooo ,... it depends on what u like.
I think once u understaind tah combinations, tactics to use and movements ... u just go with the flow, but until then it might be a bit tough.

[Mobeius]

Wow this thread was ninja'ed LOL.

Monks have many tools at their dispossal, the difference that makes monk seem godlike. The player that knows their class like the back of their hand to twitch and change their combat style to different threats. Hesitation will kill the monk faster than anything.