THF for Pally, is it still worth it?

[Reos]

There seems to be a lot of conflicting opinions on whether this feat tree is still worth taking. Has anyone run actual numbers to show how usefull (or useless?) the feats actually are? I know a lot of people complain that Zeal "feels" gimped, but apparently if you do the calculations it's actually a slight buff overall. I'm curious to see if anyone has actually broken down the feats effects this would be most useful, imo, than pontificating on what feeling they elicit.

Thanks for contributing!

[Logic]

While moving the 3 THF feats give you absolutely nothing.

I'm pretty much always moving, so I'm dropping the feats.

[Hydro]

While moving the 3 THF feats give you absolutely nothing.

I'm pretty much always moving, so I'm dropping the feats.

Oi...

It is pretty much impossible that you are "always" moving while fighting. What about high ac mobs? Or if you are taking Sulu in VOD or TOD?

Everyone even the most dedicated twitchers (ex twitch now) still had to keep their feet planted every once in a while and now it is a big dps loss to move.

The three feats are pretty crappy now but if you are going for max dps you need to take them. On a Pally or Barbarian who get so much extra damage from glancing blow special damage (Capstone, KOTC, Frenzy, Death Frenzy) it is a DPS loss movi ngno matter what any spreadsheet might say. For any THF class the THF line is required for max dps, the feats are very weak for the cost but if you want max dps you need to get the feats.

Max DPS = Take Feats
Low DPS = Skip Feats

[Reos]

Cool, thank you for the input. Maybe the devs should reduce these feats down to two, instead of three, but make the two individually more powerful?

[Logic]

Oi...

It is pretty much impossible that you are "always" moving while fighting. What about high ac mobs? Or if you are taking Sulu in VOD or TOD?

Everyone even the most dedicated twitchers (ex twitch now) still had to keep their feet planted every once in a while and now it is a big dps loss to move.

The three feats are pretty crappy now but if you are going for max dps you need to take them. On a Pally or Barbarian who get so much extra damage from glancing blow special damage (Capstone, KOTC, Frenzy, Death Frenzy) it is a DPS loss movi ngno matter what any spreadsheet might say. For any THF class the THF line is required for max dps, the feats are very weak for the cost but if you want max dps you need to get the feats.

Max DPS = Take Feats
Low DPS = Skip Feats

I agree with this. But the THF chain isn't 100% needed depending on your build, unlike the TWF chain that provides a huge damage boost.

[Ssmooth]

Having a twf paly, I find it hard to immagine a thf paly. I would only create one as a TR on my current paly if I had an ESOS to be honest. I dps difference on a KotC is huge. With the ToD set, twf gets +9d6/hit. I really doesn't matter how many smites land, twf>thf for a KotC.

If I had an ESOS, I would consider TRing into a WF thf.

[justagame]

Maybe if the game you play is exclusively raid boss and epic beatdowns where everyone surrounds 1 mob for lengthy melees while standing still. But for most of us, 99% of combat isn't that. And yes, if very often involves moving. Mobs move, you need to move with them. Moving to flank and evade hits is also important, as you don't want to have to stand still and be a punching bag for no good reason. Many mobs jump back and forth. People write as if the only meaningful combat in the game is an all-melee surround of harry/sulo/xxx. The reality is that combat involves a lot of moving.

Before update 5, a THC kotc could at least be competitive. While TWF benefits from the kotc and capstone on evey hit, the fact that those also fired on glancing blows helped a great deal. For mobs that are moving, or fights that involve even a little movement, the dps hit to THF was in fact greater than TWF. Not counting the zeal nerf, which affected both, and comparing the loss of attacks -- TWF lost 20% offhand attacks, or just under 10% overall; a moving THF lost ALL glancing blows, or 20%+ of overall dps. Sure, against raid bosses, there is no loss -- but realistically, whether a raid boss goes down is not that dependent on 10% here or there, but on whether you have the right DR-bypassing weapons, sound tactics, and timely healing.

I have a TWF melee toon where I can see the dps hit, but it is modest, proportionate to everyone else's and I still enjoy playing it. I have a THF KOTC pally that I no longer consider a dps toon, and has become so unenjoyable that I want to shelve it. The ability to kill trash has changed -- either I stay still and miss mobs that run or hop around, and take much more damage than ever before, becoming a sponge -- or, I move and have dps that is essentially sword and board, albeit with a higher STR bonus and 5 more points from power attack. Because without glancing blows, that's the ONLY dps difference betweeen those two styles now.

I used to enjoy the (good-natured) debate about whether a THF pally could be good dps, and was having a good time proving guild-members and pug-members wrong. Now, there is a noticeable difference, it's just not the same.

[Ormindo]

I have been a THF since the beginning (and also a failed tank, but forget about this). A mob's moving ? Stun him, trip him. Use censure demon. If you're used to stand still when attacking (I am since the beginning. Do you know there IS an attack penalty while moving ?), it's not a big deal.

[Ssmooth]

Out of curiosity, what are some fully buffed smite numbers for you thf paly's? My twf paly gets into the 620's, and really have no clue what the 2-handers smiting #'s are.

With the nerf to thf and ESOS, I would have to recant on my previous statement and say that I would not go thf unless there is a change to it.

[azrael4h]

Maybe if the game you play is exclusively raid boss and epic beatdowns where everyone surrounds 1 mob for lengthy melees while standing still. But for most of us, 99% of combat isn't that. And yes, if very often involves moving. Mobs move, you need to move with them. Moving to flank and evade hits is also important, as you don't want to have to stand still and be a punching bag for no good reason. Many mobs jump back and forth. People write as if the only meaningful combat in the game is an all-melee surround of harry/sulo/xxx. The reality is that combat involves a lot of moving.

Before update 5, a THC kotc could at least be competitive. While TWF benefits from the kotc and capstone on evey hit, the fact that those also fired on glancing blows helped a great deal. For mobs that are moving, or fights that involve even a little movement, the dps hit to THF was in fact greater than TWF. Not counting the zeal nerf, which affected both, and comparing the loss of attacks -- TWF lost 20% offhand attacks, or just under 10% overall; a moving THF lost ALL glancing blows, or 20%+ of overall dps. Sure, against raid bosses, there is no loss -- but realistically, whether a raid boss goes down is not that dependent on 10% here or there, but on whether you have the right DR-bypassing weapons, sound tactics, and timely healing.

I have a TWF melee toon where I can see the dps hit, but it is modest, proportionate to everyone else's and I still enjoy playing it. I have a THF KOTC pally that I no longer consider a dps toon, and has become so unenjoyable that I want to shelve it. The ability to kill trash has changed -- either I stay still and miss mobs that run or hop around, and take much more damage than ever before, becoming a sponge -- or, I move and have dps that is essentially sword and board, albeit with a higher STR bonus and 5 more points from power attack. Because without glancing blows, that's the ONLY dps difference betweeen those two styles now.

I used to enjoy the (good-natured) debate about whether a THF pally could be good dps, and was having a good time proving guild-members and pug-members wrong. Now, there is a noticeable difference, it's just not the same.

See, this is the opposite effect I've experienced. I found my TWF Exploiter to no longer be near as fun to play, with a great loss in attack speed, while my THF Paladin got free feat slots from no longer needing to take the THF tree. In fact, since I could take Improved Critical a few levels sooner than I'd originally planned, my dps actually improved over before. At higher levels, it won't matter, but for now, I'm much better off without the feats than with them.

Granted, I'm not playing either regularly now, as I'm playing my Cleric. Another story for another day.

[justagame]

See, this is the opposite effect I've experienced. I found my TWF Exploiter to no longer be near as fun to play, with a great loss in attack speed, while my THF Paladin got free feat slots from no longer needing to take the THF tree. In fact, since I could take Improved Critical a few levels sooner than I'd originally planned, my dps actually improved over before. At higher levels, it won't matter, but for now, I'm much better off without the feats than with them.

Granted, I'm not playing either regularly now, as I'm playing my Cleric. Another story for another day.

Well of course, just about any feat would be an improvement over a now-useless feat. The fact that update5 made the THF chain useless to the point where people are dropping it for other feats speaks volumes about the impact it had.

[sephiroth1084]

With the THF feats on a capstoned KotC, you're adding a ton of extra damage on your glancing blows.

And I don't know what you guys who are always moving are doing. On my 2-handers, I tend to move into position where I can swing and hit 2 or more monsters (usually), stop, swing, move if they move, stop and swing, repeat as needed until stuff is no longer moving (twitching only counts if you're really ****ed at it, but paladins shouldn't be desecrating corpses anyway).

I get glancing blows regularly still, even against notoriously mobile creatures like air elementals.

[Hydro]

I found update 5 to actually be a nice buff to my THF pally. Having an ability to get double smites and sacs seems to me to be much better then a 10% attack increase.

My Palading is Smiting for around 840 maxxed out with his Epic SoS witht he potential to do over 1600 a smite. My Divine Sacs are critting for around 350 witht he potential of doing 700ish damage.

THF Palading is very viable, hits very hard and is very fun to play. Yes you really need an epic SoS to max his dps out but what THF class doesnt want the epic SoS.

[Crann]

And I don't know what you guys who are always moving are doing. On my 2-handers, I tend to move into position where I can swing and hit 2 or more monsters (usually), stop, swing, move if they move, stop and swing, repeat as needed until stuff is no longer moving

Most of the time, they come to you when you grab the aggro....never been very mobile on my 2 handers either. Don't see any diference except when twitching a single target, and I was never any good at theat to begin with...lol.

[MateCarefor]

My paladin is no where near uber status, and is not capstoned as of yet (around lvl 15)
I took THF and ITHF, but skipped the third feat, since it really did not sound like it did much in U5.

At the moment I have no raid gear to speak of and no GS, and have pretty much just been messing with the class.
With 24 str, +3 great axe, smites are coming in on crit around 480 or so (first number, not the other effects and things), with glancing blows proc'ing effects often enough I think the 2 feats were well spent. I also tend to hop in the middle and try to get the aggro on me to plant and lop, as the constant rubberbanding of twitch fighting just gives me a headache - lol.

Ain't no 1600 or whatever, but it seems on a par if not a bit higher than my tempest ranger at the same level/gear, so I would vote THF is still worth it.