Psionics suggestion

[rook546]

One of the things I really would like to see would be psionics. It has been in the game almost since the beginning. It would really add to the game's interactivity. Plus I've searched quite a bit on the web for an online game with a good psionics system and haven't found one yet. For this game to have one would be really great. I would like most of the races and classes capable of psionics, but I also would like a certain class devoted to psionics. It might fit in nicely to the special class section. It would allow whole new types of feats and skills plus maybe some new spells as an added bonus. There could be new objects for magically improving certain psionic abilities. Maybe certain optional parts of quests that you need a certain power to do. But, only characters with moderately good intelligence could do it. Still, that might give wizards a slightly better time when starting out. It would open up a whole new gate way of opportunities.

[Angelus_dead]

Short form of the standard response to psionics suggestions:

Adding psionics to DDO would either be too similar to existing spellcaster class features (and thus bad) or too different from the D&D psionics rules (and thus bad)

[rook546]

Adding psionics to DDO would either be too similar to existing spellcaster class features (and thus bad) or too different from the D&D psionics rules (and thus bad)

yes, but you said it yourself. It would be "too different" from the actual D&D game. But, without it it would still be "too different". And it would not be limited to spellcasters, but to all the classes. It would only be limited by intelligence. Plus if you look at the psionics section in the D&D manual, then you would see that many of the psionic powers are not like any spells in the game.

[Aashrym]

What if psionicists did get added, and still be similar to wiz/sorc, but with fewer abilities than sorc gets spells, no speed bonus to casting, no bonus feats like a wiz, and with power point regen similar to previous versions of PnP instead of the 3.5 psionicists?

This would open up an option for players who want the regen on powers that sorc and wiz do not get and some room for Kalashtar development. We'll have more Eberron flavor that way, another option for arcane types who have been posting threads looking for SP regen without changing Wiz/Sorc.

Balance it out with less options, and lower point pool, and abilities more in line with 2.0 psionics and regen the points.

It's not my personal preference, but it might offer something more to the game to some playstyles.

[rook546]

What if psionicists did get added, and still be similar to wiz/sorc, but with fewer abilities than sorc gets spells, no speed bonus to casting, no bonus feats like a wiz, and with power point regen similar to previous versions of PnP instead of the 3.5 psionicists?

This would open up an option for players who want the regen on powers that sorc and wiz do not get and some room for Kalashtar development. We'll have more Eberron flavor that way, another option for arcane types who have been posting threads looking for SP regen without changing Wiz/Sorc.

Balance it out with less options, and lower point pool, and abilities more in line with 2.0 psionics and regen the points.

It's not my personal preference, but it might offer something more to the game to some playstyles.

So, let me see if I got what you were trying to say. You would want the psionics and abilities system to be like the 2.0 system, with less skill points and fewer ability options to choose from. Anything else I missed? Please correct me if I miss interpreted anything you said

[Rakian_Knight]

What if psionicists did get added, and still be similar to wiz/sorc, but with fewer abilities than sorc gets spells, no speed bonus to casting, no bonus feats like a wiz, and with power point regen similar to previous versions of PnP instead of the 3.5 psionicists?

This would open up an option for players who want the regen on powers that sorc and wiz do not get and some room for Kalashtar development. We'll have more Eberron flavor that way, another option for arcane types who have been posting threads looking for SP regen without changing Wiz/Sorc.

Balance it out with less options, and lower point pool, and abilities more in line with 2.0 psionics and regen the points.

It's not my personal preference, but it might offer something more to the game to some playstyles.

In short you have a Sorcerer who doesn't get the quicken casting and has only 3 (if you are going to be less then sorc.) different powers to use but they regen Psononic Points. Sounds like a cool idea and a great way of making them different but still work. However, the lack of any ability might cripple them at lower levels worse then casters IMO.

Just my thoughts

[Soni]

One of the things I really would like to see would be psionics. It has been in the game almost since the beginning. It would really add to the game's interactivity. Plus I've searched quite a bit on the web for an online game with a good psionics system and haven't found one yet. For this game to have one would be really great. I would like most of the races and classes capable of psionics, but I also would like a certain class devoted to psionics. It might fit in nicely to the special class section. It would allow whole new types of feats and skills plus maybe some new spells as an added bonus. There could be new objects for magically improving certain psionic abilities. Maybe certain optional parts of quests that you need a certain power to do. But, only characters with moderately good intelligence could do it. Still, that might give wizards a slightly better time when starting out. It would open up a whole new gate way of opportunities.

I like the idea of adding psionics, but giving all classes some capability of psionics would be too far off from D&D, it would be kinda like 4th edition, (warriors with speical powers) which is a fail in my opinion.

Wow, 2nd edition psionics. Can't remember what they do, nor I have the book, but I like the power point regen idea.

[Aashrym]

The problem with psionicist is we already have sorc and wiz doing almost the same thing.

Sorc gets faster casting / larger SP pool and wiz gets more spells / spell swapping / bonus feats to differentiate between the two. If we add a psionicist who would be almost the same class as well we need a way to differentiate it.

Power point regen would be a possibility. Several threads are posted lately regarding running out of SP and a desire for SP regen. Instead of attempting to change an established class we could be looking at an opportunity to implement it in the psionicist and provide the regen for those players.

@Rakian_Knight: Sorc and Bard's don't get quicken in 3.5 PnP rules ;). Allowances are made for the translation to an MMO. Quicken Power sounds like it would be just fine in that regard to make up for it. I think a signature ability might be helpful, I agree. I'm thinking the good old stunning mind blast. Class ability requiring power points. And that would be a good ability to add enhancements for.

I would rather see druids and artificers first, but I think we may have a way to add the psionicists with some distinction from sorc/wiz and open up some room for more Eberron flavor and player choices.

[rook546]

I like the idea of adding psionics, but giving all classes some capability of psionics would be too far off from D&D, it would be kinda like 4th edition, (warriors with speical powers) which is a fail in my opinion.


I think you might have missed a part. I said I would like "most" of the classes to have psionics. By that I mean I would like rangers, bards, magic users, and maybe paladins.

[Memnir]

While I don't think Psionics would be a bad addition to the game... I can think of about a dozen things that I'd rather see first, and would be better then psi stuff. And that is just off the top of my head.


And, Psionics should only be added if/when the effort is made so they can be different enough from spellcasters to make them an interesting and a varied aspect of the game.

Psionics should never be made an all-races option.

[Rakian_Knight]

The problem with psionicist is we already have sorc and wiz doing almost the same thing.
@Rakian_Knight: Sorc and Bard's don't get quicken in 3.5 PnP rules ;). Allowances are made for the translation to an MMO. Quicken Power sounds like it would be just fine in that regard to make up for it. I think a signature ability might be helpful, I agree. I'm thinking the good old stunning mind blast. Class ability requiring power points. And that would be a good ability to add enhancements for.

I know, Sorcerers are spontanious casters and the faster spellcasting is a representation of that (sorry if I made it sound different.) I was refering to in game ;P

Also their are a lot of Psonic Powers that are different then the spells in the game already so giving them a different list of powers on top of the regenerating Psonic Power Points and I think you would have a starting psonic start.

However I do have to agree with you Aashrym on the fact that Actificers and Druids need to come first.

[rahubby]

Well since nobody could help me with my problem with the current download ( http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=263527 ) I gave up and uninstalled and I've had my computer downloading a fresh install for the last 8 and a half hours, so I figured I'd fiddle with a suggestion while I'm waiting for the thing to finish downloading.

How Psionics could be introduced to DDO:

As artificial constructs, Warforged are unable to have, and are resistant to, psionic powers (and thus cannot be of a psionic character class, sorry)

They're different from existing casters in that they recover energy naturally without having to rest at a shrine (albeit slowly, and if they rest at a shrine, they would be fully charged, just like casters) and their powers would be considered nonmagical (thus unaffected by dispel magic, and unboosted by things that boost magic)

For those impatient with math, what I'm doing in most of these formulas is using what is called a "Weighted average" of Int (*2) Wis (*2) and Cha (*1) - what this does is works like taking the normal average, but "weights" it towards Int and Wis and away from Cha.You are counting Int and Wis TWICE, and dividing by 5, instead of counting each stat ONCE and dividing by 3.

Psi points: Initial Psi total is ((2*int+2*wis)+cha)*(1+(Level/2) Psi is recovered at 1 point every 25-(2*int+2*wis+cha)/5 seconds per level (Weighted average of int, wis, and cha subtracted from 25 seconds)

Example: A level 1 character with 18 int, 18 wis and 10 cha would have 123 Psi, and would recover 1 Psi every 8.6 seconds.

Psionic Saving Throw: Against the highest of Int, Wis, or Cha. Psionic damage and effects are not reduced by nonpsionic defenses of any kind.

Feats:

Psychic Awareness (Req: Concentration 5+ (Trained Ranks, not adjustment) or Psionic character class (Granted at level 1) Allows the purchase of Low power Psionic Enhancements.

Psionic Talent (Req: Psionic Awareness) Allows the purchase of Medium Power Psionic Enhancements and basic psionic Defenses

Psionic Mastery (Req: Psionic Talent and Psionic Character Class) Allows the purchase of High Power Psionic Enhancements and Psionic attacks, and reduces the Psi cost of all psionic abilities by 25%.

Psionic Wizardry (Req: Psionic Mastery, 20 points in psionic enhancements) Allows the purchase of all psionic abilities and enhancements, and reduces the Psi cost of all psionic abilities by an additional 15% for a total of 40% energy cost savings.

Examples of some Psionic Enhancements (Several of these would be "ultimate" abilities, requiring "Psionic Wizardry") - I can't, of course, hope to be comprehensive, as even first edition psionics was pretty complex, but I've included some of the abilities I remembered, and a few classics from fantasy and Sci Fi.

2 points: Mind over Body (Low Poswer psionic enhancement, self only) for 10 Psi points per +1, the psionic can boost his Str, Dex, or Con by up to 1 point plus one point every 2 levels to a maximum of 8 stat points at level 14 or higher, for 60 seconds. (When activating the ability, a list similar to the Energy Resistance spells come up listing each stat that can be raised, with buttons next to each for "+1, +2, +3, etc" which can be put on actionbars individually)

2 points: Body Equilibrium (Medium Power toggle psionic enhancement, self only) Falling damage reduced to 1/8th normal. Water is treated as a solid surface on which you can walk (and take damage from falling on, regardless of depth) Expends 5 Psi per minute while toggled on.

4 points: Psionic Blast (High Power psionic attack, Cone enemy targets, positional) The only psionic attack that can hit nonpsionically aware targets - A cone that does 1D4 per level (Max 15D4) psionic damage and force a Psionic saving throw to avoid temporary paralysis. Expends 100 Psi.

2 points: Id Insinuation (High Power Psionic attack, single psinically aware target) - If the target fails it's psionics saving throw and fails to have an appropriate psionic defense up, it will fight on your side, effectively becoming a hireling (Complete with a generated-on-the-spot Hirling bar) - The target gets a new saving throw every 20 seconds to throw off the effect. Expends 1 psi per level of the target every 20 seconds, and the target is freed automatically when you run out of psi.

4 points: Phase Shift (High Power Psionic Enhancement, self only, minimum level 15) For 1 Psi point per second, the psionic character becomes intangible (but not invisible) rendering them intangible to all nonpsionic attacks, and able to move through enemies without being blocked or hindered.

2 points: minor Telekinesis Gives a +1 psionic bonus per 5 Psi spent for 2 minutes on the following skills and abilities (Maximum bonus of +4) Lockpicking, Disable Device, Trip (penalty to opponent's save), Jump, Tumble, Bluff (by making a noise behind the enemy by knocking over some small object or something)

4 points: Major Telekinesis (Req: Minor Telekinesis) 10 Psi for 1 minute. Allows the psionic to use the lockpicking or disable device skills without tools if he has the skill (and he can get the bonus from Minor TK by using that as well) and gives a flat +4 cumulative Psionic bonus to the skills minor Telekinesis gives bonuses to.

8 points: Telemechanics (Ultimate level power, Req: Major Telekinesis, Repair 8+ (trained ranks, not bonuses)) 20 Psi for 10 seconds. Allows the psionic to use Lockpicking or Disable Device skills, even if he doesn't have them (!) and without tools, and gives an additional +2 cumulative Psionic bonus to all of the skills affectged by Minor Telekinesis. Using all three of these abilities for maximum effect would thus give a grand total of +10 psionic bonus to all of the skills for 10 seconds, +8 for 40 more seconds, and then +4 for 60 more seconds.

8 points: Microkinesis (Ultimate level power, Req: Major Telekinesis, Heal 8+ (Trained Ranks, not bonuses)) The Psionic can use telekinesis to pinch nerves or cut off blood vessels in allies or enemies for a variety of effects. On an ally, he could cut off the sensation of pain, giving the ally the same effect as a barbarian's Enrage ability (Costs 20 Psi), while he can cause paralysis (15 Psi) or damage (20 Psi, 1D6 per level Psionic damage, maximum of 15D6) by partially or completely cutting off the blood supply to the brain. (Ineffective on Undead or targets without a normal nervous or circulatory system (Jellies, etc))

4 points: Remote Viewing (Medium power Psionic ability) Toggle ability (10 Psi per minute) The Psionic's Point Of view (invisible, intangible, and able to fly or go underwater independent of the need to breathe) leaves his body and floats around - While he is doing this his body is helpless and stands as if dazed (or in the Meditation position) the movement keys work as if he was underwater, even if he's not, enabling his point of view to move in any direction so long as it is not blocked by a barred door (it can pass through unlocked, forcable, lever controlled, key openable or pickable doors, but not magical barriers) to spy on what is there. The psionic's point of view is just that, however...just a point of view, unable to interact with anything other than to look at it.

4 points: Monster from the Id (High power psionic ability) Costs 100 Psi. This power summons an invisible creature from the subconscious mind of a nearby sentient being (or from the psionic himself) that usually acts as a pet to the person it was summoned from, but is somewhat unpredictable in combat. It has the same hit dice (level) as the being it was summoned from, and has a 25% per 10 seconds in a fight of randomly attacking anything nearby for 1 minute (Even it's supposed "master") The monster lasts for 10 minutes, and cannot be banished or injured except by psionic attacks or Ghost Touch weapons, making it very risky to summon. You CAN summon one from an enemy, but doing so entails even more risk, since the chance it will act as a pet is greater than it's chance of going berserk.

2 points: Telekinetic Healing (Req: Minor Telekinesis) Heals 1D4 damage per Psi point spent (max of 10 points per "casting") on a target within meele distance.

2 points: Empathy (Minor Psionic power) Gives a +1 psionic bonus per Psi point spent for 60 seconds to the following skills: Diplomacy, Bluff, Performance, Intimidation.

2 points: Empathic Healing (Req: Empathy) The Psionic touches the target and heals 1D12 damage per psi point spent (max of 5 points per casting) but takes the amount of damage he healed himself (not reducable or preventable)

4 points: Temporal Accelleration (Medium power psi ability) Same effect as "haste", but caused by actually alterling the flow of time around the psionic.

6 points: Slow Time (Req: Temporal Accelleration) All enemies in a 20 yard radius are slowed to 50% movement and attack speed.

8 points: Freeze Frame (Ultimate Psionic, Req: Slow Time) 150 Psi points. Every moving object and creature, except the psionic, in a 100 yard radius of the psionic is frozen in place for 30 seconds This includes traps, falling objects, monsters, teammates, NPCs, etc. Cannot be used in public places (For obvious reasons.) enabling the psionic to move about freely. Creatures frozen in Freeze Frame cannot percieve the Psionic while they are frozen, and will not react to him when the duration ends unless it ends while they are in range to do so.

[rahubby]

I think you might have missed a part. I said I would like "most" of the classes to have psionics. By that I mean I would like rangers, bards, magic users, and maybe paladins.

I think you're both missing the point...Psionics (as a wild talent) was available in first edition to ALL characters, regardless of class, if you had high enough stats and made the roll. That was always the best system as far as I'm concerned, with maybe the addition of one class that specialized in psionics (Something like the Palladium "Mind Mage" would be perfect)

(You can see the list of Palladium Mind Mage psionic powers on the left side of this character sheet, along with the relative energy costs (costs would be higher for DDO/Dungeons and Dragons, since ISP total is much lower than Psi total in my formula): http://www.temporalnexus.net/multiverse/Resources/Sheets/Official/PFRPG/Mind_Mage(b).pdf )

That's just an example of course, whatever class would be added wouldn't be a mind mage, but I don't have my old first edition DND player's handbook for a total list of the psi powers and costs)

[Angelus_dead]

I think you're both missing the point...Psionics (as a wild talent) was available in first edition to ALL characters, regardless of class, if you had high enough stats and made the roll. That was always the best system as far as I'm concerned
Uh, how can you defend player characters having the opportunity to gain a major and complex set of extra powers just because they were lucky with a ~10% chance at creation?

How does that support either balance or verisimilitude?

[Angelus_dead]

How Psionics could be introduced to DDO:
You're making a typical mistake: skipping ahead of the concept and jumping right into details.

Before going into exactly where power points are recovered or what the specific powers do, a suggestion to add psionics would have to start with how psionic characters will fit in gameplay compared to existing characters.

The game already includes people whose superior mental abilities grant them supernatural powers to destroy their enemies; so what's the motivation to add more kinds of characters like that (instead of just changing the existing ones).

[dragons1ayer74]

I would love to see it as a class but there is so much other stuff that I would also like to see. And as much as I am hopeful for things it would take a huge effort to do it properly and only so many development zots to go around so I just don't see it as real playable options any time soon TM.

[dragons1ayer74]

You're making a typical mistake: skipping ahead of the concept and jumping right into details.

Before going into exactly where power points are recovered or what the specific powers do, a suggestion to add psionics would have to start with how psionic characters will fit in gameplay compared to existing characters.

The game already includes people whose superior mental abilities grant them supernatural powers to destroy their enemies; so what's the motivation to add more kinds of characters like that (instead of just changing the existing ones).


I do not agree with this. By this logic you could simplify every thing down to two classes, magic and front line, every thing else would be subset of that.

edit: No Neg Rep (because you are still about +10 up from me that the system would not let me award you.)

[jwdaniels]

Psionicists have never worked out well in typical D&D PnP because they are either the same as Wizards/Sorcerors in which case they are unnecessary, weaker than Wizards/Sorcerors in which case they are pointless, or stronger than Wizards/Sorcerors in which case they are broken. In all three cases, there's no need for psionics.

Psionics worked well in Dark Sun in 2nd edition because the world was designed with them in mind. I know PnP Ebberon involved psionics, but DDO hasn't. Trying to crowbar psionics into DDO at this late stage isn't necessary and would cause more harm than good (adding new mechanics to a developed game without releasing a full expansion always lead to bugs and nerfs - even with the full expansion it's still buggy).

[Thechemicals]

Psionisist should not be allowed to multiclass, regardless of what pnp says.

[Angelus_dead]

By this logic you could simplify every thing down to two classes, magic and front line, every thing else would be subset of that.
I did not say it was impossible to find a way to fit psionics in with existing DDO characters- I just pointed out that his suggestion did not cover that important topic.

For example, a good suggestion would need to describe how the DPS of a psionic-guy compares to Sorcerer and Wizard DPS, and then explain the motivations to make it that way.


I do not agree with this.
...
edit: No Neg Rep
I haven't exactly read the rules, but I've heard that you're not supposed to give neg rep just for disagreeing with the content of a post. It's more meant for how the post is written than what it says.

[dragons1ayer74]

I did not say it was impossible to find a way to fit psionics in with existing DDO characters- I just pointed out that his suggestion did not cover that important topic.

For example, a good suggestion would need to describe how the DPS of a psionic-guy compares to Sorcerer and Wizard DPS, and then explain the motivations to make it that way.


I haven't exactly read the rules, but I've heard that you're not supposed to give neg rep just for disagreeing with the content of a post. It's more meant for how the post is written than what it says.


I am not sure I am understanding you because really you could discuss the exact same things with all the casters Favored Souls vs Cleric, Wizards vs Sorcerers and even all of them lumped together in one big pool and you still would possible be discussing how similar each are in their relevant roles to the game.

About the comment for the negative rep, which I did not give you, IMO you are far more constructive and generally seem to have the best interest of the game in mind. I fully apologize if I perceived that particular post as coming off as a bit derogatory which I believe is cause for neg rep.

[Angelus_dead]

I am not sure I am understanding you because really you could discuss the exact same things
...
you still would possible be discussing how similar each are in their relevant roles to the game.
Yes, of course you can have those discussions about how character types compare to one another. My point is you need to have those discussions before getting into the details of a new character type.

It's usually a waste of time to launch right into a list of new abilities with point costs and damage numbers assigned to them without first establishing what the intended gameplay role for the character is, and whether or not that's even a desirable addition.

For example, suppose someone suggested adding the Samurai class to DDO, and made a big list of the features it gets from levels 1-20 and all the enhancements choices. That would mean skipping over the important question: Does it even make sense to add Samurai to a game that already has Fighter and Paladins?

[dragons1ayer74]

...
For example, suppose someone suggested adding the Samurai class to DDO, and made a big list of the features it
gets from levels 1-20 and all the enhancements choices. That would mean skipping over the important question:
Does it even make sense to add Samurai to a game that already has Fighter and Paladins?

Well here is where I see one big difference the Eberon campaign has allowed psionics. DDO is in the Eberon setting. 3.5 D&D has a psionics class that is D&D rules. DDO however is only loosely based off D&D rules. I see it is no real difference then saying a psionic class should be created and allowed just like druid and artificer because they are classes allowed in Eberon just like all the ones we do have. If the game had released with fighter and no paladins, rangers or barbarians but paladin/ranger/barbarian feats/enhancements existed you could really be having the exact same argument do we really need a paladin, barbarian or ranger if we have a fighter. The point; as is the debate is rather moot as the extent of psionics is likley what we already have, items bonus from psionic and quest flavor NPC's. A psionic class from a players perspective likley will never walk in DDO Eberon.

[Scraap]

As far as the general philosophy behind the 2.5 implementation at least, psionics were pretty much a way of multiclassing without taking the xp hit, when you get right down to it. As such, perhaps an extreme ap cost for a given ability once the prerequisite stat is met for a given character would serve the same purpose. Say, anywhere from 1 levels worth to 3 of APs, depending on utility. At least as a general rule of thumb.

I do however believe later versions changed the stacking rules so that psionics were interchangeable with magic, rather than an alternative bypass, so that those body-morphing skills (cannot for the life of me recall the names, sorry) for example would supplement the lack of one being cast on you, rather than compliment it.

/endhorrificlydatingmyself

[Angelus_dead]

Well here is where I see one big difference the Eberon campaign has allowed psionics. DDO is in the Eberon setting.
Notice that the Eberron setting has the main adverturer continents of Xorvaire and Xendrik, but all the psionics are off on a different continent called Sarlona? There's a reason it was created that way: the designers were aware that many players would have good reason to not want psionics in their game, so those game rules were segerated to a different part of the campaign world.


I see it is no real difference then saying a psionic class should be created and allowed just like druid and artificer because they are classes allowed in Eberon just like all the ones we do have.
The difference is that for Druid and Artificer you can look at the classes and make a decent case for what they'd add to gameplay:

Druid: Thematically it provides a nature-based caster who turns into big animals, which is something visually very different from what DDO characters do now. In gameplay it provides a caster class that can shift into alternate modes with reduced spellcasting, which also doesn't work in DDO yet. (The Tenser spell attempts that but fails). Heal spells are similar to a cleric, but more costly and a little less effective. Some of the damage spells are similar to a wizard, but also a bit less powerful.

Artificer: Thematically a techno-based caster, which is very different. The gameplay role is harder to derive directly come the D&D rules, but we can create one such as making it DDO's first "pet class", whose combat power comes from a powerful homonculous construct that's your partner in battle. Essentially the Artificer player would be controlling both a melee robot and caster humanoid at once, which is pretty unique. Most spells are like generic arcane buffs, but the spell list is bigger (as Artificers know all their possible spells constantly). Some damage like Blade Barrier, and a few self-only weapon buffs to make him more acceptable in melee. Excellent UMD gives him bard-class healing.

So the thing is, if someone wanted to add psionic abilities it would be more effective to start with some explanations like that as to how they'd fit in the game.


The point; as is the debate is rather moot as the extent of psionics is likley what we already have, items bonus from psionic and quest flavor NPC's. A psionic class from a players perspective likley will never walk in DDO Eberon.
Yes, that's what the conclusion would come out to be. But some people don't see why that is: they think that psionics would be a moderately straightforward addition. Talking about the various possibilities will help them understand what's going on.

PS. The best way to add psionics is a Kalashtar race and a Psywar class.

[rahubby]

Uh, how can you defend player characters having the opportunity to gain a major and complex set of extra powers just because they were lucky with a ~10% chance at creation?

How does that support either balance or verisimilitude?

Perhaps if you'd bothered to read my SUGGESTION, you would see that instead of a roll, the system I'm proposing would be handled like everything else in DDO...you would BUY a feat to become psionic, then buy each individual power as an enhancement.

Clearly you need more lessons on reading comprehension.

[rahubby]

You're making a typical mistake: skipping ahead of the concept and jumping right into details.

Before going into exactly where power points are recovered or what the specific powers do, a suggestion to add psionics would have to start with how psionic characters will fit in gameplay compared to existing characters.

The game already includes people whose superior mental abilities grant them supernatural powers to destroy their enemies; so what's the motivation to add more kinds of characters like that (instead of just changing the existing ones).

Who said anything about "these are the rock hard rules about how it should work?" I know I didn't...I was simply demonstrating how it could be worked into the existing Feat/Enhancement framework and showing examples of how some of the powers COULD work. I was careful to give this psionics suggestion several weaknesses (Among them, having three DIFFERENT stats that can be used for a psionics saving throw instead of just saying "its a will save" for example)

Also, I challenge you to point out the spellcasting class that has to buy each and every spell WITH ENHANCEMENT POINTS. This is designed to limit each psionic to maybe half a dozen lesser powers or one or two powerful ones.

And to those whining about "how would the damage compare" I think I listed, what, two whole powers that even DO damage? Psionic powers would mostly be buff/utility type powers, with a few damaging abilities (which would allow very easy saves, as I mentioned in another post) Name one spell from ANY existing class that does exactly what the "Body Equilibrium" or "Freeze Frame" psi powers do...

[Angelus_dead]

Perhaps if you'd bothered to read my SUGGESTION, you would see that instead of a roll, the system I'm proposing would be handled like everything else in DDO...you would BUY a feat to become psionic, then buy each individual power as an enhancement.
I was not replying to your suggestion. That comment was in response to your statement that the AD&D 1e psionics system was the best.

Since it is well-known that the AD&D 1e psionics system was terrible, I asked you to explain how you could think it was the best.


Clearly you need more lessons on reading comprehension.
That is completely and obviously incorrect.

[Angelus_dead]

I was simply demonstrating how it could be worked into the existing Feat/Enhancement framework and showing examples of how some of the powers COULD work.
Yes, but explained, you did so without providing an explanation of why it might be a good idea to add things like that.


Also, I challenge you to point out the spellcasting class that has to buy each and every spell WITH ENHANCEMENT POINTS. This is designed to limit each psionic to maybe half a dozen lesser powers or one or two powerful ones.
Yes, and as explained, deviating from the D&D psionics rules to such as large extent is not viable for DDO.


And to those whining about "how would the damage compare" I think I listed, what, two whole powers that even DO damage?
Yes, there were a low number of damage powers. As explained, the motivation for having a low number of damage powers is something that should be described.


Name one spell from ANY existing class that does exactly what the "Body Equilibrium" or "Freeze Frame" psi powers do...
As mentioned above, that's part of the problem. Freeze Frame is essentially the level 9 Wizard spell "Time Stop". To add an iconic ability of the D&D Wizard but not allow Wizards to use it would need to be strongly justified.

[rahubby]

Yes, and as explained, deviating from the D&D psionics rules to such as large extent is not viable for DDO.

Hilarious...so you're saying that picking powers at RANDOM would be a BETTER way to implement psionics in DDO?

And No, it wasn't the "random" part I was talking about in saying that the DND V1 system was the one I liked...it was the fact that juat about any character (and certainly any character CLASS) could get psionics (Just wouldn't be very good at it if they had low "psi" stats) -


As mentioned above, that's part of the problem. Freeze Frame is essentially the level 9 Wizard spell "Time Stop". To add an iconic ability of the D&D Wizard but not allow Wizards to use it would need to be strongly justified.

BZZZT! Sorry, wrong answer...the "iconic" 9th level Wizard spell is "Wish", not "Time Stop"

[HarveyMilk]

Personally, I would love to see psionics in DDO. And I like the direction this thread was going with it, too.

[Zuldar]

The best way to add psionics would be to start small. Begin with the psychic warrior and soul knife. The psychic warrior would take the place of an "arcane" warrior, something we lack at the moment, and the soul knife would be a weaponized monk type class.

Eventually they could add kalashtar and full psionics in one update, because really the only difference between any caster is their spell selection and with unique enough powers psionics would be a good addition.

[Angelus_dead]

Hilarious...so you're saying that picking powers at RANDOM would be a BETTER way to implement psionics in DDO?
I said nothing resembling that. As is apparent by looking at it, the statement to which you are replying said that anyone adding psionics to DDO would be constrained to follow an approximation of the D&D psionics rules.


And No, it wasn't the "random" part I was talking about in saying that the DND V1 system was the one I liked...it was the fact that juat about any character (and certainly any character CLASS) could get psionics (Just wouldn't be very good at it if they had low "psi" stats)
1. The AD&D 1e psionics system is based on a single random lucky roll at character creation.
2. That random roll makes the result of honestly using the system very bad.
3. You said you think the AD&D 1e psionics system was the best one.

To say a system was the best is a different claim than stating a system has certain traits you enjoy.


BZZZT! Sorry, wrong answer...the "iconic" 9th level Wizard spell is "Wish", not "Time Stop"
Wow, ok. As is clear by reading the post, I did not say any particular spell was "the" iconic Wizard spell. I said that Time Stop was an iconic 9th level D&D Wizard spell, which is obviously and absolutely true.

[Angelus_dead]

The best way to add psionics would be to start small. Begin with the psychic warrior and soul knife. The psychic warrior would take the place of an "arcane" warrior, something we lack at the moment, and the soul knife would be a weaponized monk type class.
It would be a mistake to add Soul Knife as a class of it's own. As has been thoroughly described by D&D players, the Soul Knife concept just doesn't have nearly enough meat to it to it to justify being an entire character class. It would work better as a series of powers or feats for another class, such as Psywar or Fighter.

When you look at it, it's really sad to have a character class whose whole ability is "I haz a sword".

[Halock]

The problem that i see with trying to put psionics into the game is that the spellcasters already are implemented closely to the way they work in Pnp, you have SP ( spellpoints/psi points ) you have your feats that adjust the cost of whatever spell/ability you want to manifest.....just allround very similar.

Granted psi get a few unique spells and abilities, but the vast majority are just copies of normal caster spells.

Personally i love psionics, but i dont see how they could be put into this game, the arcane caster system is basically it already, just worded differently.

[Dysmetria]

If they were to add Psionics, wouldn't they have to add the races and classes that use them? Considering how long it is taking for them to get Half-Orcs and Druids out, I'd not expect these for years if ever.

[Scraap]

If they were to add Psionics, wouldn't they have to add the races and classes that use them?

Depends. Illithids(mindflayers) are psionic by nature for example, and those are in game with a few unique abilities. Thing is, there's traditional races which have psionic schools, and those that just have wild-talents that manifest themselves. The later category would be any race whatsoever (barring warforged, which for balance, might need something mechanically similar, perhaps limited to body manipulation equivalents)

Main question is, are we talking actual classes here, or character Feat/AP lines for supplements?