Sorc or Wiz?

[dragoncrazyxp]

Which is better overall?

[kaelis]

sorcerers r00l, wizards drule.

[LordRavnos]

Your going to hear answers for both sides of that can of worms honestly, so I will say it comes down to what you prefer. Sorcs can cast alot faster, have more SP and can get a higher UMD due to a much higher cha, downside limited spells and can only change 1 once every 3 days, and also get new spells 1 level later than wizards and only 1 at first. Wizards have access to all spells at any shrine or tavern, more skill points due to high int and 5 extra feats. If its your first arcane caster, go with wizard for a bit to learn what feats and spells you like so you can plan your sorc out if you chose to make one.

[oweieie]

Wizard. Better DCs better past life benefits.

[kaelis]

Wizard. Better DCs better past life benefits.

Meaning you serve your time as a wizard, and reroll to where the power lies. Sorcs.

[oweieie]

Meaning you serve your time as a wizard, and reroll to where the power lies. Sorcs.

Actually you want: bard > wizard > cleric > cleric > cleric > wizard > wizard > fvs > fvs > fvs > wizard. No sorcs at all unless you're going for that +2 all stats.

[Phidius]

Actually you want: bard > wizard > cleric > cleric > cleric > wizard > wizard > fvs > fvs > fvs > wizard. No sorcs at all unless you're going for that +2 all stats.

Ugh... no thanks, one TR per toon is enough for me :D

[kaelis]

Actually you want: bard > wizard > cleric > cleric > cleric > wizard > wizard > fvs > fvs > fvs > wizard. No sorcs at all unless you're going for that +2 all stats.

overkill... not even star would do that.


Wiz>wiz>wiz>>fvs>fvs>fvs>sorc>sorc>sorc.

[-Satureon-]

Short term: sorcerer.
Long term: wizard.

[ddoer]

Actually you want: bard > wizard > cleric > cleric > cleric > wizard > wizard > fvs > fvs > fvs > wizard. No sorcs at all unless you're going for that +2 all stats.

if one will do multiple reincarnation and end up as a wiz, it stupid for not to take at least one sorc past life for the active past life feat.



overkill... not even star would do that.


Wiz>wiz>wiz>>fvs>fvs>fvs>sorc>sorc>sorc.

imho, the first wiz and sorc past life feats are most useful for the active damage spell past life feats. other than that, the past life are mainly for spell penetration and sorc evocation dc.

for spell pen, a pure sorc without any past life could get +30 spell pen (for L8 spells) with all enhancement and 2 feats. The enhancement points and feats are expensive so i would take the first tier spell pen enhancement and no feat, so it will be +25 only. 3xwiz+3xfvs past life will give +9, to +34 spell pen. The question is how much spell pen is enough? is +34 overkill?

the highest SR mob is the Epic DQ afaik and its SR is 45+, it is not a realistic target to shoot for. but it shows a very high spell pen at least have one use case.
The so-called high SR mobs could have up to SR36. (I think no non-named mob has higher than SR36) A rich past life caster could break them easier. There are only a few quests with high SR mobs, such as running with devil, epic OOB etc, and they account for maybe 2 or 3% of all mobs in this game. I personally won't go for 6 past life for the spell penetration because it is too time consuming.
the majority of mobs has an SR lower than 30. with spell pen 28-30, you basically could break the SR of 95+% of mobs in this game when rolled 1. I consider 28 as the passing line, and 28 could break any normal shavarath orthons. And 30 is good enough, and you still have 70% chance to break those SR36 mobs. For the extreme Epic DQ2 case, it is suppose to be a team work and you need Shattlemantle anyway.


anyway, to me, 2-3 wiz + 1 sorc past life is acceptable, and anything more than that is overkill. for my casters, i actually didn't get more than 1 wiz + 1 sorc past life. I hope I have more free time! :rolleyes:

[SINIBYTE]

WF Sorc > All.

/thread

[bunitchu]

well, i hit the same wall when i was deciding which spellcaster would b best for me, and then, one of my guildies told me this:

"end game, you will always use the exact same spells....whats the point of havin all if u use only the same ones again and again"

and how that fits the discussion, well simple, what make wizzards a nice choiced as well, is that they are versitile, having far more spells, but if u reach end game and cast the same stuff again and again whats the point of having all arcane spells of the game? isnt it better to....cast them more times over having a heck load of spells parked and not being used anymore?

for lower lvl, its better wizard, because they pick spells faster, and can change their spells according to the quest, while sorcerers dont, however once you reach end game, and have your spells settled, having more mana (which is the sorcerer case) is exactly what you want. And yes, with sorcerer you will have sometimes to change spells and spend some money, never doubt that, however, end game, they rule, easy as that, because in terms of damage and amount of spells used b4 the blue bar becomes black, they really oversome wizards.

i am not saying that wizard is a bad choice, because they can reach a very good damage per spell as well, and very decent cds for spells, and wont face half as many problems as the sorc towards end game, but sorcerer hability to cast stuff faster, with loads of damage, and cast it twice as many times, or more, than a wizard, because a sorcerer mana pool takes far more time to end, have a heavy impact on mid to end game.

my suggestion to you is, first you go wizard, know the spells, see how well they work, and learn some mana management along the game, then, TR into a sorc, or, make an alternate as a sorc, even if ur f2p you have space in 1 account for 2 characters. See which one you liked to play more once you learn what spells are good and what spells arent, and then, the one you like more, you keep as your main caster^^.

[Consumer]

i am not saying that wizard is a bad choice, because they can reach a very good damage per spell as well, and very decent cds for spells, and wont face half as many problems as the sorc towards end game, but sorcerer hability to cast stuff faster, with loads of damage, and cast it twice as many times, or more, than a wizard, because a sorcerer mana pool takes far more time to end, have a heavy impact on mid to end game.

Lol, just lol.

[Jonandu]

I would suggest wizard first, then go sorc...


Sorc class is easy to mess up, You can only swap one spell every 3 days, so if you don't pick the right spells you will be screwed!

[Archmage49]

I prefer wizard, just the versatility. Now, I haven't reached end game or whatever, but I haven't yet seen where a particular spell is the only one worth preparing. Fire wall is great most of the time, but what if you're in a quest where there's a whole bunch of fire elementals or other fire types? Not much good now is it? Every spell has a use, albeit a limited one.

Which is why I like wizards over sorcerors, the simple fact that if they know what they are facing, they can customize to fit that threat. Sorc's can't do that, so then what are they going to do, wait a week to replace a few spells? You get more mana, sure, cast faster, thats nice also. But in terms of damage, why can't a wizard do as much, if not more? They have the same feats, same spells, actually wizards get more feats, enhancements the same. Though I suppose a sorceror can just load up on a dozen scrolls to make up the spells lacking?

[Sweyn]

Which is better overall?

Sorcerers and Wizards each have different play styles to offer, take your pick. Neither one in general is "Better," it's just which ever you like to play more. There are a few rare situations where one class may be better than the other, but in general, they are balanced.

[Sweyn]

But in terms of damage, why can't a wizard do as much, if not more?

Sorcerer capstone gives 20% additional damage to all their damaging spells; it is impossible for a Wizard to get this. Therefore, Sorcerers, with the same gear set up as a Wizard, will naturally to more damage with their spells.

[AyumiAmakusa]

Flip a coin.

On one hand, the 'head' has a more round-ish shape and may show the currency value. On the other hand, the 'tail' may show a picture that is iconic to the country the coin belongs to.

The point is, you can talk about which sides of a coin is better but you'll only end up with an answer that neither is better than the other. What matters is what YOU think is better and weigh it out yourself because everyone will have differing opinions.

[DrakHar]

I played a sorc, and hated it. They don't actually have double the sp, though they have a lot, but they also tend to burn through it faster. Now, maybe your "second or third life" should be a sorceror, but on the first, definitely far and away I'd say take wizard. The higher DCs and spell penetration mean those "Save or screwed" spells land much more often. Because of this, you save sp, and don't burn through it. Sorcs can waste more mana achieving the same effect, and worse, they have to cast it multiple times wasting time. (Even their cooldown time isn't zero).

If, however, you want to ZOMG run ahead and firewall the game, play a sorc.

In either case, drow, human, and wf are your best options IMO. Warforged self heal is hard to beat, but the +2 int for drow or the extra feat on the human can be a great asset as well.

The +1 AC from halfling is a trap, casters don't usually have any AC.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Short term: sorcerer.
Long term: wizard.

I think you have that backwards

[Spisey]

overkill... not even star would do that.


Wiz>wiz>wiz>>fvs>fvs>fvs>sorc>sorc>sorc.

HEY! :p

If/when I finally TR I want to see a 50 cha (even short time, i.e. House pots) on Xxthermitexx! 42 Standing cha with the meager +1 ship buff and a +4 cha and completionist just seems too uber an a WF Sorc.

Sorc btw so as to not completely derail this thread... :p :o

[kaelis]

HEY! :p

If/when I finally TR I want to see a 50 cha (even short time, i.e. House pots) on Xxthermitexx! 42 Standing cha with the meager +1 ship buff and a +4 cha and completionist just seems too uber an a WF Sorc.

Sorc btw so as to not completely derail this thread... :p :o

Heh. I think i got to a 44 standing in my second life, so goodluck.

[Sweyn]

HEY! :p

If/when I finally TR I want to see a 50 cha (even short time, i.e. House pots) on Xxthermitexx! 42 Standing cha with the meager +1 ship buff and a +4 cha and completionist just seems too uber an a WF Sorc.

Sorc btw so as to not completely derail this thread... :p :o

Myddo my TR'd sorc Sowen :D

I had to "smile for the camara" hehe

[Vengenance]

if one will do multiple reincarnation and end up as a wiz, it stupid for not to take at least one sorc past life for the active past life feat.

:

IMO the sorc past life feat pretty much sucks on a Wizzard as the DC is Charisma based. I have done past lives as a Wiz and Sorc, currently working on Wiz again and from my experience the Wiz past life feat is great, but the sorc one pretty much sucks since the save is based upon your charisma. I get nothing but saves at level 17 except for on low reflex save mobs. The sorc past life feat would be great on a sorc, but as a wizzrad, not so good.

My final build will be Wizzy x3, Sorc x1, with end build being a Sorc. Oh and for those who think spell pen is over-kill, you have to realize that by taking the past life feats you don't have room for Spell Pen I and Great Spell Pen Feats. You need at least two wizzard lives to cover both active feats and still have reasonable spell pen. A third past life gets you a little bonus spell pen and/or frees up the last tier Spell pen enhancement.

[darkforest]

The pure Wizard:

-Lots of skill points to spend!
but only two are class skills, and repair is unneeded by most. Thus you end up with many half-@ssed skill ranks nothing to write home about.

-Can change spells at will!
Yes some quests are made easier with targeted spells, and the obligatory WF healing can be fun. But some spells just dominate too much in most quests. If only the ability to swap in obsolete or underpowered spells is a bragging right.

-Better CC?
Correct me. It's rather frivolous considering the first 19 levels your DC is the same as the sorcerer unless necro focused.

-Five free feats!
It can be fun with multiple SF schools and non-caster feats. If the typical sorcerer (and offensive caster cleric) setups can cherry-pick the best seven or eight feats and excel...

-Gracefully slow casting motion!
Twice the casting time of sorcerers = twice likely to fail concentration check.
And unless you know when the next horde of baddies appear, your postmortem/post-battle Glitterdust or the like is mere confetti.

-Non-supersized spell points!
Perhaps like a smaller engine, it's good for the environment.



Intentional to raise a stink here, in the hope more goodies can be offered to the Wizard to convince those who ran-off with Sorcerers to come back.

[Entelech]

The Sorcerer Past Life feat may not do much elemental damage, but you don't really care about that.

The (passive feat) bonus to Evocation DC's is nice, and the (active) feat gives you everything that Mental Toughness or Improved Mental Toughness does, along with a free effect to swat bats out of the sky on Korthos.

[Dylvish]

Flip a coin.

On one hand, the 'head' has a more round-ish shape and may show the currency value. On the other hand, the 'tail' may show a picture that is iconic to the country the coin belongs to.

The point is, you can talk about which sides of a coin is better but you'll only end up with an answer that neither is better than the other. What matters is what YOU think is better and weigh it out yourself because everyone will have differing opinions.

Lol well done. +1 :)

[Sorwen]

With the new changes the ability to pick up Archmage and Arcane Spell ability mean it is Wizard.

[Thrudh]

-Can change spells at will!
Yes some quests are made easier with targeted spells, and the obligatory WF healing can be fun. But some spells just dominate too much in most quests.

Mostly true, but as new spells get added, this will swing more and more to the wizard... I think we need about 1 more good situational spell in each spell level, and wizard and sorc will be more balanaced here...

Leveling is a wizard is easier I think... Less SP, but you get your spells quicker, and you have more slots, and you can change spells at will. I know I like swapping between banishment and hold person, mass depending on the quest... A sorc in my mid-late level range (13-16) is less effective in most quests...

Even at 20, sorcs have enough spell slots to get all the standard "good" spells but not the situational spells... Now those situational spells may only be useful in 20% of the quests, and the sorc can do just fine with the brute force method anyway.

But my wizard always has the right spell. And as new spells get added I think it will be even nicer to be a wizard.


-Better CC?
Correct me. It's rather frivolous considering the first 19 levels your DC is the same as the sorcerer unless necro focused.

Read the quote below, Five free feats means the wizard usually has more spell focus feats... which equals DC. Also, have you heard about the Archmage and Pale Master PrEs? Also more DC. Sorcs do damage, Wizards have higher DCs, long before level 19


-Five free feats!
It can be fun with multiple SF schools and non-caster feats. If the typical sorcerer (and offensive caster cleric) setups can cherry-pick the best seven or eight feats and excel...

Well, there are more than 8 good casting feats... There may be a core 6 or so that top the rest, but the second-tier feats do make a difference, and sorcs can't afford the second-tier feats... Past life feats can also be much more easily added to a wizard.



-Gracefully slow casting motion!
Twice the casting time of sorcerers = twice likely to fail concentration check.
And unless you know when the next horde of baddies appear, your postmortem/post-battle Glitterdust or the like is mere confetti.

True. Casting speed is definitely the sorc's big advantage.


-Non-supersized spell points!
Perhaps like a smaller engine, it's good for the environment.

Sad to admit this, but I just buy pots from the DDO store... I try to play smart and not use them, but I always have them available... Plus, with the Archmage PrE, spell points are less of an advantage for sorcs.




Intentional to raise a stink here, in the hope more goodies can be offered to the Wizard to convince those who ran-off with Sorcerers to come back.

Oooh.. maybe I should have played along... He's right, devs, wizards are terrible... We need more buffs to bring us closer to equal with the mighty sorc!

[lvl20wizzyman]

sorcerers r00l, wizards drule.

actually it depends on what you want, and in my opinion wizards are the way to go, they are perfect for first time arcane casters (like myself), and WF-warforged are a great race for them, if you make a wizard google what a good build is there are sure to be plenty of WF builds out there, but some human ones as well, and if you choose to TR, TR 5 times, then TR the 6th time into a sorcerer if you have a idea of what spells you would like to have

[Jakarr]

I'v always been a fan of sorc's but with AM/PM and the extra feats Atm With end game gear, all the sp goodies and all that Jazz, A wizard pulls it out.

A sorc has 2 things over a Wizard More sp(which at higher lvls there is a difference but not a huge one like in lower lvls) and the casting spd/recast spd(this is why I still have a sorc but thats b/c of my builds diff story) Pure vs Pure a Wizard with the goodies will have a much better DC and for whats its worth more spells( <shrug> ).

End of the day play what ya like.

Another thought is DC vs Nukage

Both classes do there job but a Sorc is little more geared toward tossing out a ton of polar rays+Delayed Fireballs/Chain/Ball Lightning while a Wizard has a little more advantage towards the DC based spells.

Sorc=Run and Gun
Wizard=Tactics

Both do each great just one does it a little better.

[Doxmaster]

Flip a coin.

On one hand, the 'head' has a more round-ish shape and may show the currency value. On the other hand, the 'tail' may show a picture that is iconic to the country the coin belongs to.

The point is, you can talk about which sides of a coin is better but you'll only end up with an answer that neither is better than the other. What matters is what YOU think is better and weigh it out yourself because everyone will have differing opinions.

Yes. Nice job ninja'ing me.


Which is better overall?

No. Just no.

This is an impossible question. One can ask "Which is bigger, the moon or a dog?" and get an answer because the term 'bigger' is used. You could have just as easily asked us "Which is better? The moon, or a dog?" and we would just have to list things and hope you are satisfied.

Tell us what "better" pertains to, and we will be able to answer you; otherwise, this is just troll-fodder for the eternal wiz/sorc battle everyone loves arguing.

Do you want natural fast casting, spell points that last alonger, spell variety, full meta magic AND normal feats, easy UMD, plenty of skill points, easy spell DC and Spell penetration maximization, not needing to buy stacks and stacks of scrolls to cast spells from, needing stacks of scrolls to learn spells from, extremely high natural nuking ability, pets, free spells, Undead forms, Easy intimidate maximization... Its a large list, and I'm still missing important abilities others might notice.

So...provide and operational definition of "Overall best." or my answer is Bard.

[Crystalizer]

years ago i was playing a drow sorcerer, to me it was the best arcane at that time
now to me this is definitely warforged wizards who are the master arcane class
sorcerers lack of feats now compared to wizards, even if you TRx3 as a wizard and then TR as a sorcerer you wont have enough feats to reach the maximum arcane power

[Anneliese]

I would say that without PREs, both are balanced.


But a Enchantment Archmage can be very nice for Epics (Mass Hold) and the Lich form of the pale master is nice too.

[Guilllotine]

I would say that without PREs, both are balanced.


But a Enchantment Archmage can be very nice for Epics (Mass Hold) and the Lich form of the pale master is nice too.

I totally agree here, but I will give my reasoning of the differences like everyone else.

Sorc = Quantity
Wizard = Quality

"Currently with U7" answer is Wizard

I have both, but with the new PREs, wiz definitely pulls ahead with "Epics".
As a matter of fact, I have created a build, with help from the community, that takes advantages of BOTH Pale Master and Archmage (The true versatility of a wizard)! Stick that in your pipe and smoke it :D
Here we are http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=283894

[Bobthesponge]

why not do both? with a 10 wiz/10 sorc you can have tons of SP and faster casting while also having access to all the spells and the ability to swap at shrines.

[Sweyn]

why not do both? with a 10 wiz/10 sorc you can have tons of SP and faster casting while also having access to all the spells and the ability to swap at shrines.

Awesome idea

[Asirin]

Wizard=scalpel,Sorc=Sledgehammer.Either one can be amazing with the right player moving the mouse.

[painindaguild]

i am not saying that wizard is a bad choice, because they can reach a very good damage per spell as well, and very decent cds for spells, and wont face half as many problems as the sorc towards end game, but sorcerer hability to cast stuff faster, with loads of damage, and cast it twice as many times, or more, than a wizard, because a sorcerer mana pool takes far more time to end, have a heavy impact on mid to end game.


if parties are looking for DPS do they display the sorc/wiz icon? NO

[Anneliese]

why not do both? with a 10 wiz/10 sorc you can have tons of SP and faster casting while also having access to all the spells and the ability to swap at shrines.

I prefer wiz 6/ sorc 7/bard 7, Half-Orc, wisdom maxed with throwing weapons.

[Bobthesponge]

I prefer wiz 6/ sorc 7/bard 7, Half-Orc, wisdom maxed with throwing weapons.

oo... nice build. although i would also be a drow specced for shuriken.

[winsom]

Here are some very useful "wizard" spells that I typically do not see sorcerors using due to their limited spell slots:

Master's Touch = proficiency in the held weapon. As far as I know this is not available for sale as scroll.

Knock = very useful for the Shroud raid and other places. Many sorcerors will take this eventually but they are probably giving up Scorching Ray or Blur because they can only have Four 2nd level spell slots, A wizard can load up Five spells.

Rage = a popular party buff for extra damage and hit points.

Protection from Energy = a life saver in certain quests. If the wizard is quick to repeat-cast this he can survive a long time under heavy attack. At higher levels I repeat cast the 7th level Mass-version that protects from all energy types to everyone around me. A smart wizard-build will have the Insightful Reflexes feat for superior survivability compared to sorcerors.

Sleet Storm = one of the few spells that will modify how a boss monster will fight. He moves around in small steps and turns around because he doesn't like the Storm. That means he is attacking less often, i.e. easier to heal people. Many monsters are blinded by this spell too making it like a better form of Displacement.

Suggestion, Mass Suggestion = very useful at all levels of play, including Epic. Wizards can get a very high Enchantment DC. Any time you make a monster behave differently or attack differently you can take advantage of it, just like any other exploit that DDO players use.

Enervation, Energy Drain = some wizards will load up both of these for rapid energy draining as de-buffing or as a damage-dealing alternative. Enervation cooperates well with an item of Spell Penetration VII or less. Do you have a Spell Pen 9 item for Energy Drain?

Fire Shield/Chill Shield = a life-saving personal spell. Half damage is extremely useful especially against bosses and on Epic. You can get short duration from scrolls. I rarely see Sorcerors, bards, rogues (UMD) taking advantage of this protection.

Solid Fog/Acid Fog/Cloudkill = not often useful but certain adventures can exploit it very well, especially if the caster is soloing or short-manning the adventure. i.e. Web + Cloudkill = frost giants stop attacking, take damage, and lose CON. Now easier to land Stunning Blow/Fist for quick killing.

Stoneskin = added survivability is always great and the spell is superior to Wand usage. I think smart sorcerors will have this, but many will not because they only know Four level 4 spells, while the wizard can load up Five.

Ball Lightning/Chain Lightning = It is very useful to be able to deal high amounts of damage with energy other than fire and cold. I suspect a lot of sorcerors will have one of these spells, but they might not. A wizard can always have it ready, along with every other useful 5th and 6th level spell.

Break Enchantment = situationally very useful, even though I personally do not bother to cast it much even when loaded.

Dominate Person/Monster = very good for specific high level adventure exploitation, or small-group adventuring.

Mind Fog = the spell save de-buffer that allows wizards to land some really impressive control spells if they don't already have an Enchantment DC of 40+ . Epic Ward supposedly prevents it from working.

Summon Monster V: Bearded Devil = a very potent summon spell for characters around 9th level. Sorcs and UMD users are able to buy lots of scrolls of this.

Greater Heroism, Flesh to Stone, Reconstruct = very potent spells to cast from memory. Sorcerors and UMDers can use scrolls for half-power (or less). Only a Wizard is likely to have all of these available in memory, along with the other very useful level 6 spells.

Otto's Dancing Sphere, Delayed Blast Fireball, Symbol of Stunning, Waves of Exhaustion: A wizard is not likely to have all of these prepared at once, but he could. A sorceror will never have most of these prepared due to there being other good 7th level choices.

Summon Monster 8 & 9 = some very potent pets that any wizard will have available as needed. These scrolls are not available for purchase from vendors. Some sorcerors still do not have these. Perhaps they will change their mind eventually when they see what wizards are doing with them.

Meteor Swarm = an extremely high damage spell if you have a Combustion item to enhance it (Phoenix Regalia). The non-fire damage component alone is higher damage than many other lower level spells.



"end game, you will always use the exact same spells....whats the point of havin all if u use only the same ones again and again"


I have a wizard and a sorceror. They play the same in many ways but the differences are very noticible. The sorceror has a few very useful strengths and a few weaknesses.

The wizard's spell versatility is a strength to a player that knows when certain spells will serve better than the selection that most sorcerors end up with.