"Need DPS!" Guess what class isn't wanted?

[Quarterling]

So most (98 percent?) groups that want DPS don't have rogue in their listing. Instead, what's always there is the easy button (a.k.a. ranger http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon12.gif).

Now this is somewhat understandable, because a proper rogue that can bring DPS just as well - or better than a ranger, takes skill and in-game experience. Not to mention that rogues are more squishy, and the fact that most people who don't play the "ideal" rogue start with a Constitution of 10 or 12 at the highest. But come on, eliminating rogues entirely?

So I'm here to ask you guys, what does a rogue need to do to prove him or herself? Rogues are more than trappers and skillers. Of all classes in Dungeons and Dragons Online, to me rogues are the most fun to play as because of their diversity, but also seem to be the least wanted.

And just in case anyone else won't read a few posts ahead...


Most of the time I run with my guild (Shadowblade Assassins in Ghallanda), I'm just making a point that some people don't give rogues enough credit. Oh well, maybe with the nerfing of the rangers, and the granting of doublestrike with Rogue Haste Boost, things may start to look up.

[Merlocke]

I like seeing a STR based rouge with a deathnip/ Mineral II/ RadianceII Heavy pick in thier hands..and high CON

[Quarterling]

I like seeing a STR based rouge with a deathnip/ Mineral II/ RadianceII Heavy pick in thier hands..and high CON

Hm, I should try that out sometime. My current Str rogue is multi-classed with 3 monk for Fists of Light and wind stance. 16 Con (base) is high enough I hope. http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Rav'n]

I like seeing a STR based rouge with a deathnip/ Mineral II/ RadianceII Heavy pick in thier hands..and high CON

Isn't that P? :D (Not sure which one.... all of his toons are starting to look alike...:eek: )

OP... if people aren't taking you when they need DPS... start your own groups. (then you can choose NOT to take those pesky Rangers...)

[Vinne]

Stop pugging...find a guild or group off ppl that no that ur not a waste of space

[GhoulsTouch]

I think if you can sneak attack the horde all at once that is huddled around the intimitank in a firewall, or through passes of a blade barrier it constitutes as DPS...as long as you can live to tell the tale.

[Quarterling]

OP... if people aren't taking you when they need DPS... start your own groups.

Stop pugging...find a guild or group off ppl that no that ur not a waste of space

Most of the time I run with my guild (Shadowblade Assassins in Ghallanda), I'm just making a point that some people don't give rogues enough credit. Oh well, maybe with the nerfing of the rangers, and the granting of doublestrike with Rogue Haste Boost, things may start to look up.

[Zorack00]

Multiclass ranger.

[Quarterling]

Multiclass ranger.

I swore on my dead father's grave I would never push the easy button.

*Sniff* I'll miss you three-eighthling...

All jokes aside, I'm not bashing on the ranger, they're a good class, but when put right next to a rogue and when asked who has better DPS, pretty much everyone will say the ranger does which irks me a little.

[Phidius]

Don't hold your breath waiting for the hordes to post LFMs that reflect the game's reality.

It's more fun to take a screenshot of their LFM message (blocking their names, of course), and mocking them in your server's forum.

[Lithic]

Those lfms (Need DPS, no rogues) always make me laugh.


I always read them as "Party sucks, leader needs brain". Joining such parties on my non-rogue characters has inevitebly led to confirmation of my interpretation ;)

[Draccus]

Those LFMs aren't completely due to ignorance. The sad truth is that it's FAR easier to screw up a rogue build than any other class in the game. On the other hand, I could teach a drunk monkey to play a ranger.

Read these forums and note the number of rogue builds you see from new players which don't have damage-increasing enhancments; don't have power attack; have 10 con, 10 strength, and no toughness. That's why people will exclude rogues in pugs.

Too many rogues, in my opinion, think that simply having 10d6 SA damage means you have great DPS. That's absolutely not true. I actually had a rogue in a Shroud, when asked if he had a silver/good weapon, say "nope. Don't need it. Sneak Attack is my silver."

[samthedagger]

While true that it is easy to screw up a rogue, a properly built one does incredible DPS that chews up any critable mob as good as the best barbarians. If a group leader won't let you in, send him a short tell explaining (I get +17d6+24 on two attacks against anything that can be critted) and see if he gets the picture. If not, you probably don't want to be in that group anyway because the leader is ignorant. If the quest is undead/construct/elemental heavy, start your own LFM. That usually works for me.

A quick work-around to the leader unclicking the rogue icon in the LFM is to multiclass into any class that is generally considered high DPS (fighter/ranger/barbarian). But then you have to give up the sweet capstone and 4d6 sneak attack.


Too many rogues, in my opinion, think that simply having 10d6 SA damage means you have great DPS. That's absolutely not true. I actually had a rogue in a Shroud, when asked if he had a silver/good weapon, say "nope. Don't need it. Sneak Attack is my silver."

While I carry around two metalline of pure good weapons on my rogue, the benefit they grant is +2d6+9 damage without a crit. That's not insignificant by itself, but compare that to the +17d6+24 from assassin III + capstone + guile + training and it starts to seem rather insignificant. For a rogue who is strapped for cash, relying on sneak attack most of the time is usually more than enough.

[samthedagger]

double post oops

[bandyman1]

While I carry around two metalline of pure good weapons on my rogue, the benefit they grant is +2d6+9 damage without a crit. That's not insignificant by itself, but compare that to the +17d6+24 from assassin III + capstone + guile + training and it starts to seem rather insignificant. For a rogue who is strapped for cash, relying on sneak attack most of the time is usually more than enough.

The problem is that the mobs you need those weapons on have fort. Meaning you're not getting your 17d6+24 a significant portion of the time.

[samthedagger]

The problem is that the mobs you need those weapons on have fort. Meaning you're not getting your 17d6+24 a significant portion of the time.

On a lot of raid bosses this is true. But for the vast majority of opponents, this is not true. It does happen more late game, but even against bosses with 50% fort, half of 17d6+24 stacks up fairly well. As long as your character is well built in other respects, having an extra 41.75 average damage per hit is still pretty good. As I said, I understand the problem more in adventures that are heavy on undead/constructs/elementals. There isn't really anything a rogue can do in these situations but use greater bane or stack on effects that help the group in other ways (cursespewing, destruction, shattermantle for example). But it's the same situation you run up against when fighting fire/cold immune stuff with a fire/cold caster. It isn't that they cannot contribute, they just contribute less than they would under other circumstances; they can still buff or throw other spells. Rogues are a lot like casters in this regard. Against stuff that can be critted, their DPS is phenomenal. Against most undead, wall of fire is phenomenal. It is a hazard of playing the class, but it doesn't mean the character is useless. The problem lies in ignorant party leaders thinking a rogue is useless when 95% of the mobs in the quest are subject to sneak attack. Such simply isn't the case and the party leader needs to educate himself. Sadly, most such people probably never spent a single minute on the forums.

[Kinesthetic]

Make your own parties. Most people don't like to lead for fault of leadership/knowledge.

If your interest is in PUGs, then make your own, there are willing people that will join(Though I wouldn't put my money on their skills)

Now there is a reason rogues have such a bad reputation.

World of Warcraft. New players will most of the time pick a rogue or a spellcaster in WoW(I could stretch that to any MMO but that'd be part experience and part assumption). Rogues are the rage cannon of WoW pvp. They've got CC and decent damage and they're invisible, the bane of new players. Are they necessarily good against a skilled player? No, you'd need to be elitist to perform as good as most other classes.

The reason people go for them? You can't really screw them up. You can still do well with a ****** build as long as your gameplay compensates.

Now here's the problem when a WoW player comes to DDO. He has mis-preconceptions about the rogue class, think they can get away with rolling a 8 con thinking they will be sneaking anyways and a plethora of other variables they mess up.

So you're running around with a class you're less knowledgeable than you think you are about, but still there's familiarity, the sneaking aspect. One thing comes with familiarity, pride. So this one dude thinks he can advice you, are you going to oblige?

Short version: There's equal intellectual investment on playing a rogue to the skills involved. Casual gamers doesn't afraid of anything.

That or it's just the trapmonkeys staying completly out of battle to disable traps; waste of slot that could be used for DPS

[Hollowgolem]

That or it's just the trapmonkeys staying completly out of battle to disable traps; waste of slot that could be used for DPS

Thankfully, with update five, the "trapmonkeys" have no excuse to be useless. My Mechanic II is now rocking the kill counts.

[Noctus]

[quote=Quarterling;3093449]So most (98 percent?) groups that want DPS don't have rogue in their listing. Instead, what's always there is the easy button (a.k.a. ranger http://forums.ddo.com/images/icons/icon12.gif)./quote]


This is because of the combination of too many bad rogue builds roaming around in PUGland, and unknowledgeable leaders.

My.DDO is the solution. Other classes can be trusted to be at least halfway decent, but pugger rogues need to be screened. Leave all those CON 6, no fort, STR 8 spotwasters out.

[supp3nhuhn]

I think it also depends on what kind of damage the party looking for dps already can bring to teh table.
If the only one being able to deal a lot of damage is a rogue then they might run into problems with bosses when those inevitably aggro the backstabber, making his dps way less impressive and are indeed better off with a fighter type.

[Shuleagh]

You prove yourself the same way every other dps class does. Do well in pugs. Its not like there is a huge playerbase, even before you start hitting the shroud you should know from experience at least a few good players and they in turn should know you. Its really that easy. Once you become a known quantity you stop having problems.

[voodoogroves]

While pigeon-holed, all three rogue "directions" (I hesitate to call them paths) have pretty reasonable kill/damage options (not saying DPS, as "Assassinate" is non-numeric).

Acrobat: With a monk dip you're pretty darn quick with a staff. THF, Power Attack, etc. Wish staves were better.
Assassin: More sneak plus death strikes plus nice everything-is-a-vorpal.
Mechanic: Got a buddy playing one and with a decent crossbow (or set, really) he's a beast from the back-row.

The problem is, they aren't straight forward and ... it must be said ... still aren't at the very top. Good, not best. Still, pretty decently good for the dude / dudette that is also handling all the traps and such.

[bandyman1]

On a lot of raid bosses this is true. But for the vast majority of opponents, this is not true. It does happen more late game, but even against bosses with 50% fort, half of 17d6+24 stacks up fairly well. As long as your character is well built in other respects, having an extra 41.75 average damage per hit is still pretty good. As I said, I understand the problem more in adventures that are heavy on undead/constructs/elementals. There isn't really anything a rogue can do in these situations but use greater bane or stack on effects that help the group in other ways (cursespewing, destruction, shattermantle for example). But it's the same situation you run up against when fighting fire/cold immune stuff with a fire/cold caster. It isn't that they cannot contribute, they just contribute less than they would under other circumstances; they can still buff or throw other spells. Rogues are a lot like casters in this regard. Against stuff that can be critted, their DPS is phenomenal. Against most undead, wall of fire is phenomenal. It is a hazard of playing the class, but it doesn't mean the character is useless. The problem lies in ignorant party leaders thinking a rogue is useless when 95% of the mobs in the quest are subject to sneak attack. Such simply isn't the case and the party leader needs to educate himself. Sadly, most such people probably never spent a single minute on the forums.


You don't have to tell me this bro; My main is a pure Assassin rogue.

My response to your first post, was based on your agreement with the rogue who said basicly that he didn't need DR beaters because of sneak attack. You're right that the vast majority of mobs are vulnerable to sneak attacks, but then again, the vast majority of non-raid bosses don't require silver weapons to beat their DRs, or have DRs at the levels of those raid bosses for that matter.

A melee rogue should be equiped to contribute DPS to the party at all times. That includes those occassions when he's not getting sneak attacks. Your DPS is already massively lowered in that situation; Why would you just accept that it's OK to compound the problem by not even having the means to bypass a high damage reduction???

[Kriogen]

STR is warriors primary attribute. CON/HP is also important so you don't get one-shotted.

[GhoulsTouch]

STR is warriors primary attribute. CON/HP is also important so you don't get one-shotted.

They need high con for all those failed reflex saves. :)

[Merlocke]

Isn't that P? :D (Not sure which one.... all of his toons are starting to look alike...:eek: )


Yep.
The way his rogue is setup, I think alot of f2ps would be smart to use it as a reference.

[shablala]

I like seeing a STR based rouge with a deathnip/ Mineral II/ RadianceII Heavy pick in thier hands..and high CON

What do rogues have to enhance the use of a Heavy Pick?

[shablala]

Most of the time I run with my guild (Shadowblade Assassins in Ghallanda), I'm just making a point that some people don't give rogues enough credit. Oh well, maybe with the nerfing of the rangers, and the granting of doublestrike with Rogue Haste Boost, things may start to look up.

Double strike with the Haste Boost? I didnt get that memo. From what I read, all the attack speed boosts stayed the same with the exception of Tempest, wind stance, Zeal and Alacrity.

[FluffyCalico]

I like seeing a STR based rouge with a deathnip/ Mineral II/ RadianceII Heavy pick in thier hands..and high CON

While that is DPS you just described like 7 rogues on the whole server.