How about guildless loot?

[SINIBYTE]

I figure if you want to alienate small guilds and the guildless, why not alienate the larger guilds too? Give us some loot that requires you to be guildless to equip. Or a renown level less than 25. Instead of players saying "I can't equip this because my guild is too small", or "I can't equip this because I like to solo and remain guildless", others could say "I can't equip this because my guild is too big!". Sound silly? Of course it does. Just as silly as forcing everyone to join a larger guild to equip gear.

No reason to annoy only part of the playerbase when you can annoy all of them!

Equal opportunity alienation... why not? :)

[I_Bob]

/signed

[a6014z]

I subbed DDO after a week of play. As one of those people that has a limited amount of time to play I really bought into the rated dungeons and multitude. I have made some alliances, met some friends but dont think I have time to make the commitment to a guild or guild life.

Am I now a second class DDo citizen? As a solo/PUG player it sure sounds like unequal access to the game.

[karl_k0ch]

You might want to look at this topic in the suggestions section: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=258216

atm, there are several threads regarding this issue, which doesn't have to be a bad thing since it shows that there are quite some people who are not quite happy with the status quo. Yet it does get a bit confusing.

[SINIBYTE]

You might want to look at this topic in the suggestions section: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=258216

atm, there are several threads regarding this issue, which doesn't have to be a bad thing since it shows that there are quite some people who are not quite happy with the status quo. Yet it does get a bit confusing.

My post was more tongue in cheek, but I like your idea - requirements for the inserted item, not the slot. Would be even better if the slot didn't detract from the item level. Even still - requiring guild rank for buffs and bonuses is still alienating a large portion of the playerbase.

[IronClan]

/signed the MGL stuff isn't just dumb from most any game design standpoint, it's entirely unneeded... the buffs alone are enough to ensure large guild dominance, the attrition of small guilds and gimp attitudes towards unguilded players.

[SINIBYTE]

My post was more tongue in cheek, but I like your idea - requirements for the inserted item, not the slot. Would be even better if the slot didn't detract from the item level. Even still - requiring guild rank for buffs and bonuses is still alienating a large portion of the playerbase.

+1 for quoting my own post, heh. ;)

It's fairly simple to recognize that the guildless, or those belonging to smaller guilds, would probably need more help than those with the support of a larger guild, so why shouldn't there be capped guild restricted gear? You have a level 100 guild, well you don't need a +100HP gem for those bracers you just looted, but the guy without a huge guild to support him could REALLY benefit from it. Seems to make sense to me. ;)

Reverse the scaling of guild renown items, just like you award more renown for smaller guilds (and less for larger guilds). As you grow in size, you rely more on your HUGE uber guild and less on guild-renown supllied items.

[peetrs]

/signed

If Devs are pushing people off the game, why are they pushing only one part of players? They should push everyone.

[Ormindo]

Just allow guildless not to pull guild items. Because we will still pull those anyway... And I hate that.

[Mightywombat]

well its probly because they feel that solo players are minority and a waste of space. they want to "cut away the dead meat" so what better way too do it.

[kitsune_ko]

Count me in as well for this idea.

I liked the idea of another post I had read that read along the lines of -Why not also make guildless player only items, so that if you pull it and want to use them, you have to quit your guild- as this is basically what they are doing to the small guild player and solo players. Instead of catering to just the large guilds on each server, then everyone can be unhappy, alienated and angry as this seems to be the goal Turbine is aiming for.

If you want to use the new gear, disband your little guilds, leave your good friends and become a faceless guild rep farmer for one of the huge guilds. Oh, and hope they dont kick you at some point in the future becasue after all they dont know you, and your replacement -Player X- can maybe farm one point more rep a day then you can, and is thus a more valuable asset. Then your really screwed.

What a lovely update Turbine. Cant wait to see whats next, perhaps all mobs can be equipped with Vorpals? Perhaps random deaths can be introduced to keep things interesting? Random bank/inventory slots? Whos storage do you get today? Who knows!

I am very disapointed with this update, I seriously wonder about a company that punishes its players for having a small group of good friends in a small guild and pushes everyone to join huge guilds where your only worth is how much you can farm for them.

Thanks Turbine


Kit

[Dark_Helmet]

Race restricted was a way for items to be available at a lower level and are bypassed with UMD.

Since guild loot isn't bypassable, we should just have a thread of other absurd ideas for random loot:

Random loot that only works if you have a credit card with a limit over $1000 (you are apt to spend more money in the store).

Random loot that only works if you are over 5' tall (shorter people are probably kids who don't spend money).

Random loot that only works on Mondays (outage days).

Random loot that only works if your character's name starts with a T (for Tarrant and Tolero).

[Fomori]

While I disagree with the guild buffs I dont see how this hinders the smaller guilds/guildless. It doesnt benefit them as much, or for guildless at all, but that is not the same as hindering.

Just as in real life not everyone can have everything. There is no detrimental choice to being in a smaller guild. Turbine is not going to kill your puppy, take away your child, or even negatively effect your in game play if you dont belong to a large guild.

What you wont get is benefits... but you dont get them now, so how is that negatively effecting you?

As far as the loot with slots in them, yeah it would be nice if you could use the item without the slot at proper level but if you slot it, then boom MGL takes effect. Another solution would be to allow an "augment" that removed the augment slot. Put it and the item in a stone of change and poof, slot removed along with the MGL.

However, its not like pulling an item with a guild augment slot on it hurts your game experience. It vendors just fine and is even the same cost as non-slotted item. Sure it is 'taking up space in your loot tables' but there is plenty of **** that does that now. Despite what the people in trade channels trying to hawk their wares seem to thing, 98% of the items you pull ARE ****. Since you are going to vendor trash them anyways Whats a few more items with guild slots.

[Zaodan]

While I disagree with the guild buffs I dont see how this hinders the smaller guilds/guildless. It doesnt benefit them as much, or for guildless at all, but that is not the same as hindering.

Just as in real life not everyone can have everything. There is no detrimental choice to being in a smaller guild. Turbine is not going to kill your puppy, take away your child, or even negatively effect your in game play if you dont belong to a large guild.

What you wont get is benefits... but you dont get them now, so how is that negatively effecting you?

As far as the loot with slots in them, yeah it would be nice if you could use the item without the slot at proper level but if you slot it, then boom MGL takes effect. Another solution would be to allow an "augment" that removed the augment slot. Put it and the item in a stone of change and poof, slot removed along with the MGL.

However, its not like pulling an item with a guild augment slot on it hurts your game experience. It vendors just fine and is even the same cost as non-slotted item. Sure it is 'taking up space in your loot tables' but there is plenty of **** that does that now. Despite what the people in trade channels trying to hawk their wares seem to thing, 98% of the items you pull ARE ****. Since you are going to vendor trash them anyways Whats a few more items with guild slots.

This is not true.

If I pull loot, only some of it is usable, and the rest I sell. That can be represented as a simple percent, lets make up a number: 10%. So, 10% of all loot I can use, 90% I have to sell.

As of update 5, my usable loot is now below 10% if I am unguilded or in a small guild. Yet, it remains unaltered if I am in a big guild.

That is a DIRECT NERF to loot for a player who has no guild, and is not interested in any guild "perks". They are actually penalized, with reduced, usable loot.

[Towrn]

Race restricted was a way for items to be available at a lower level and are bypassed with UMD.

Since guild loot isn't bypassable, we should just have a thread of other absurd ideas for random loot:

Random loot that only works if your character's name starts with a T (for Tarrant and Tolero).

WOOO HOOOOOO


All my variations on Towrn will love this.

/signed

:rolleyes::D:rolleyes:

[borgx]

You can always create your own guild and keep your alts in it. After a while you will hit guild level 25 and you can then use tiny and small guild restricted items on all your alts while still being a soloist.

[SINIBYTE]

You can always create your own guild and keep your alts in it. After a while you will hit guild level 25 and you can then use tiny and small guild restricted items on all your alts while still being a soloist.

I still like my idea better. ;)

Reverse the stat bonuses: More renown, less of a bonus. Less renown, more of a bonus. Because really - who would it benefit more? The guy with a large well-renowned (insert inuendo here) guild, or the guy without uber guild support?

[Dark_Helmet]

I still like my idea better. ;)

Reverse the stat bonuses: More renown, less of a bonus. Less renown, more of a bonus. Because really - who would it benefit more? The guy with a large well-renowned (insert inuendo here) guild, or the guy without uber guild support?

That goes along with: If you are that good, why do you need the bonus? ;)

It is kind of funny that they took a grouping game (D&D), nerfed it down for solo play, and then pumped it up for gangsta's.

You have to wear your colors (guild rep) to be allowed into the neighborhood. You don't actually have to group with them, you just have to wear the rep.


Yo yo, lets flash some signs now:
http://www.zarrelli.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/geek_gang_signs.jpg

[SINIBYTE]

If you want to use the new gear, disband your little guilds, leave your good friends and become a faceless guild rep farmer for one of the huge guilds.

The larger guilds have already begun attempting to poach my alts... Guess these uber guilds need worker ants. Sorry guys I'm not one of them.

[dragonmane]

My daughter and I are a small guild, like 14 or 15 people in it, and we like it that way because she is pretty young. I am not happy that we are getting loot that has guild restrictions on it. It does hamper our fun. I think instead of making it guild restrictive, just make it an upgrade with no restrictions, that way both small guilds and guildless can use.

[Fridas]

All 4 quests I've done since U5 has only gotten me items that require guild levels.

[Aztek]

Race restricted was a way for items to be available at a lower level and are bypassed with UMD.

Since guild loot isn't bypassable, we should just have a thread of other absurd ideas for random loot:

Random loot that only works if you have a credit card with a limit over $1000 (you are apt to spend more money in the store).

Random loot that only works if you are over 5' tall (shorter people are probably kids who don't spend money).

Random loot that only works on Mondays (outage days).

Random loot that only works if your character's name starts with a T (for Tarrant and Tolero).

Phew. I barely made the height cutoff and I am an adult who does spend money sometimes. Thanks for not making it 6 feet ! ;)

[SINIBYTE]

All 4 quests I've done since U5 has only gotten me items that require guild levels.

Lame, innit?

[Matuse]

See signature.

And to everyone who thinks that guildless = soloist: You're a moron.

[Katriana]

While I disagree with the guild buffs I dont see how this hinders the smaller guilds/guildless. It doesnt benefit them as much, or for guildless at all, but that is not the same as hindering.

Just as in real life not everyone can have everything. There is no detrimental choice to being in a smaller guild. Turbine is not going to kill your puppy, take away your child, or even negatively effect your in game play if you dont belong to a large guild.

What you wont get is benefits... but you dont get them now, so how is that negatively effecting you?

I PAY to play DDO. I pay the same amount as everyone else that PAYS to play the game. I received an update just like all the rest. The difference is that a very large proportion of MY upgrade isn't available to me.

You noticed the word PAY in that paragraph I presume?

Yes, I'm in a small guild. Yes, we'd like an airship. Yes, we play nightly in groups. Yes, it will a lot of time to hit level 25 given our play availability. Yes, I feel cheated.

If a player is PAYING for the game, they should be receiving the same value from every update regardless of the size of their...ahem...guild.

[DrunkenBuddha]

I don't understand the logic behind this (assuming there is any). Turbine had to know that there is a significant portion of the population that aren't part of a guild - to give them loot that has a requirement that they will never be able to attain is just ridiculous. RR items you can at least bank for another toon. MGL requires you to 1: join/form a guild and 2- farm for said guild.

I dislike large guilds. When I first join and accepted the random KA spam invite, I found it to be too anonymous and just like a pug. I have a small static guild that I really enjoy. I can't use 8 items I've pulled so far, which I could have benefited from, simply because our guild has no realistic way of meeting the minimum guild level in the foreseeable future. I otherwise would have been able to use them. I can't because of this asinine requirement.

Part of the joy is pulling that random loot. Even the stuff that is RR, hey, I know I can ship that to my WF monk or drow pally, etc. Guild loot...I am stuck with. Vendor or bank in the off chance that my small guild will ever be able to attain that MGL. Loot I could use, but also can't.

Look but don't touch. Whoever thought this was a brilliant idea needs to seriously reconsider.

[cardmj1]

I seem to be missing something. I see guild restricted loot the same as I see race restricted loot. It's all vendor trash if you don't make the requirements. Would I like to use the +6 stregnth bracers that I pulled at lvl 11, wait, it's race restricted dwarf. I either look for a dwarf willing to make a trade or I put them on the AH.

What is the difference? And the argument that I can ship it to another character for race restriction is meh at best. Really, make some plat off it or trade.

[spyder7723]

If you follow the path to its logical conclusion it is quite obvious that turbine wants you to keep playing and playing more.

This new guild level thing is just one more way of daggling the carrot out in front of you. You loot something that would really enhance your character but has a minimum guild level? That is their way to entice you into playing more and more in order to grind out the guild level. Finally grind out the guild level? Better keep playing or you will lose it because of the decay mechanism.

As much as I dislike this I am not surprised. Mmo's have traditionally used psychological tricks to keep you addicted and playing. The fact is there isn't enough content (and never could be) to keep you interested over time. So they toss in the grind.

Gianthold relics to flag for tor, and more relics for armor. How long did each of us rerun the same quests or farm the rares for our relics?

How about dt armor and the cruel lottery system? Its not bad enough you have to fight the roullette wheel hoping for the effect you want, but you have to run the 3 quests each and every time to run the final quest for your chance to spin that wheel? It keeps you playing long after the *fun* factor wore off.

Then we have necro 4. Farm rares till you get your minos, an item that is basically a *must have* just to play level 12 and above.
Then its off to farm your shield, rerunning the same quests over and over for a random chance to complete the shield so you can run raids.

Shroud and greensteel crafting. Yet another grind to keep you busy playing the same content.

Tod? Better grind out your boots!!


The sentinel pack included more grind with the item crafting requiring sigils


Now we get guild renown. And loot thrown in further diluting loot tables.

Even von used to require you reflag. The LEAST of the grinds.

Can any of you long term vets remember when ddo didn't involve a grind?

So much for the mmo that advertised as 'no grind'.

Sorry for the wall of text, once I started typing more and more examples of the grind appeared to me. Just can't believe this never dawned on me till now. Had always thought only shroud crafting required a grind, something I could opt out of. Now I feel terribly naïve and foolish.

[Mister_Peace]

How about itema that give you an extra bonus if you don't have a prestige class?

[IronClan]

I seem to be missing something. I see guild restricted loot the same as I see race restricted loot. It's all vendor trash if you don't make the requirements. Would I like to use the +6 strength bracers that I pulled at lvl 11, wait, it's race restricted dwarf. I either look for a dwarf willing to make a trade or I put them on the AH.

What is the difference? And the argument that I can ship it to another character for race restriction is meh at best. Really, make some plat off it or trade.

Simple the possibility of playing different races/classes is something anyone who plays an RPG is buying into when they decide to get the game. Joining a large drama filled guild is not something anyone holding an game box at the store (or waiting for a 10 gig download) is buying into.

Playing a different race/class has no social connotation, no obligation, no one expecting you to play every night or "you're hurting our decay rate only playing once a week" or "look I know you said you're just doing AH and Bank chores but there's not one else on who can rez us and keep us from wiping"

When you get a RR item you don't suddenly have to make a decision that has real people expectations/impact/judment/social stigmas. There's lots of valid reasons why all players don't necessarily want to join guilds.

A lot of us (most) are adults who don't need another social commitment! Some of us don't want to have to explain to our Wives why we have a "guild commitment" at 10:30 and can't come cuddle... "A guild? Are you f***king kidding me? You'd rather hang out with some dorks in a game than..."

In the end having a RR dwarf item doesn't come with a decision that has any real impact at all... roll a dwarf sell it or stash it away. Rolling a Dwarf is only as much of a hardship as you're willing to pretend it to be... Joining a large guild on the other hand...

Other good reasons include: diluting the loot, now a significant percentage of loot is unusable to a large portion of the player base who don't want to join a guild... MUCH MUCH larger than RR items drop.

[Gkar]

I seem to be missing something. I see guild restricted loot the same as I see race restricted loot. It's all vendor trash if you don't make the requirements. Would I like to use the +6 stregnth bracers that I pulled at lvl 11, wait, it's race restricted dwarf. I either look for a dwarf willing to make a trade or I put them on the AH.

What is the difference? And the argument that I can ship it to another character for race restriction is meh at best. Really, make some plat off it or trade.

RR items lower the ML and anyone can build, if they want, every character they have to have the minimal UMD to bypass rr items and use them. They are also tend to be more valuable for sale than the unrestricted version because of the lower ML.

The GL doesn't really give the same advantages to offset the much more difficult limitation.

[Aurora1979]

I think most of you just need to look at types of guilds.

The guild im in, I solo alot of my play, because thats what i enjoy. I can have a chat on the guild channel, i can get or impart advice. I can ask for help or items i need and offer the same in return.

I DO NOT have to log in X times per week for X amount of time. I DO NOT have to do anything during my game play other then what i want to do. If i wana log on, say hello then not talk to anyone, thats fine with the guild.

We are also level 8 as per yesterday, so getting there at a decent rate.

Being in a guild like mine is a no brainer. Im getting the benefits of the update relative to guilds but im not more obligated to them then I would be if i was unguilded.

I think some people either need to change guilds or try a few out before saying they are being forced into anything.

You dont HAVE to be in a guild. Sure you might miss out on some stuff but its your choice. I might choose to never run a vale quest but i cant the complain because Im unable to get any greensteel.

[SINIBYTE]

Simple the possibility of playing different races/classes is something anyone who plays an RPG is buying into when they decide to get the game. Joining a large drama filled guild is not something anyone holding an game box at the store (or waiting for a 10 gig download) is buying into.

Playing a different race/class has no social connotation, no obligation, no one expecting you to play every night or "you're hurting our decay rate only playing once a week" or "look I know you said you're just doing AH and Bank chores but there's not one else on who can rez us and keep us from wiping"

When you get a RR item you don't suddenly have to make a decision that has real people expectations/impact/judment/social stigmas. There's lots of valid reasons why all players don't necessarily want to join guilds.

A lot of us (most) are adults who don't need another social commitment! Some of us don't want to have to explain to our Wives why we have a "guild commitment" at 10:30 and can't come cuddle... "A guild? Are you f***king kidding me? You'd rather hang out with some dorks in a game than..."

In the end having a RR dwarf item doesn't come with a decision that has any real impact at all... roll a dwarf sell it or stash it away. Rolling a Dwarf is only as much of a hardship as you're willing to pretend it to be... Joining a large guild on the other hand...

Other good reasons include: diluting the loot, now a significant percentage of loot is unusable to a large portion of the player base who don't want to join a guild... MUCH MUCH larger than RR items drop.

Great post, summed up my thoughts. This coming from someone who once was a GL in an end-game raid guild in WOW, spending 6+ hours a day raiding, farming, or grinding. When I started playing DDO, I wanted none of that. The addition of the renown system and the forceful social engineering is taking away from the laissez faire fun aspect of the game.

[jadenkorr]

*Claps

Fair's fair. There should be items that can only be used when youre guildless.

[Kale_Hagan]

I'd like to congratulate Turbine for managing to implement what I like to call "The Wal-Mart Model" into the game. Wasn't easy, I'm sure.

What is the Wal-Mart model? Well, you have one large entity that is so big it is capable of driving the smaller entities out of business by offering economies of scale that the smaller entities can't afford.

Way to go! Wal-Mart guilds ftw...?

[anatomyofaghost]

I think the biggest issue is that the restrictions on guild items needs some fine tuning. Pulling a guild req. lv. 45 item out of a lv 2 quest is a little disgusting and pretty much a guaranteed straight to vendor item. If the requirements were more reasonable for the quality of the loot it wouldn't be nearly as irksome.

It was already mentioned that maybe the items shouldn't have level requirements but the augments should. Seems a lot more reasonable and wouldn't penalize the guild-less.

[SINIBYTE]

I'd like to congratulate Turbine for managing to implement what I like to call "The Wal-Mart Model" into the game. Wasn't easy, I'm sure.

What is the Wal-Mart model? Well, you have one large entity that is so big it is capable of driving the smaller entities out of business by offering economies of scale that the smaller entities can't afford.

Way to go! Wal-Mart guilds ftw...?

Home Depot had a published business plan similar to that concept. They run at a loss for 2 years to drive the smaller competition out of the area, then resume normal pricing.

As such, the analogy...

Large Guilds recruit renown farmers, then dump the dead weight when decay sets in.

[Fedora]

I seem to be missing something. I see guild restricted loot the same as I see race restricted loot. It's all vendor trash if you don't make the requirements. Would I like to use the +6 stregnth bracers that I pulled at lvl 11, wait, it's race restricted dwarf. I either look for a dwarf willing to make a trade or I put them on the AH.

What is the difference? And the argument that I can ship it to another character for race restriction is meh at best. Really, make some plat off it or trade.

You are missing something - guild-restrcited loot is different than race-restricted loot but not for the reason many think.

If I have a Drow and pull a RR-Dwarf item, sure I can't use it, just sell it and be done with it. Eventually, however, I also have a chance to pull a RR-Drow item. Fair and equal.

If I do not have a guild and pull a Restricted-Guild item, not only can I not use it, but I will never have a chance of pulling a Restricted-Guildless item.

This is what alienates players. There is no reciprocity to the system. It is biased.

[jadenkorr]

You are missing something - guild-restrcited loot is different than race-restricted loot but not for the reason many think.

If I have a Drow and pull a RR-Dwarf item, sure I can't use it, just sell it and be done with it. Eventually, however, I also have a chance to pull a RR-Drow item. Fair and equal.

If I do not have a guild and pull a Restricted-Guild item, not only can I not use it, but I will never have a chance of pulling a Restricted-Guildless item.

This is what alienates players. There is no reciprocity to the system. It is biased.

In addition, the UMD 20 requirement is easily bypassed by every class, even barbs imo.