About the Sneak Attack/Stealth change

[v4n17y]

I'm a bit on the fence about this whole attacking automatically breaking stealth thing. on one hand, yeah it makes sense. on the other hand, it takes away from the utility and mechanics of a rogue. being able to chuck a dagger at the floor to draw a mobs attention and sneak past is part of what a rogue should be able to do, and under the new system, that simply doesn't work. and its the same for smashing an object to draw attention.

a huge reason i started playing this game was because i could really play a rogue, i could rely on stealth to get me through things, and now that aspect is pretty much just gone.

I really think this needs to go back to the way it was, or tweaked to allow for using stealth as a viable option again.

Maybe something like non-assassinate sneak attacks against MOB's automatically break stealth, but for an object-targeted or untargeted attack you stay stealthed.

[AbsynthMinded]

But now you get land mines and grenades! (Sarcasm)

Turbine has lost all grip on what is balanced for video versus balance for tabletop..

[v4n17y]

i think the mechanic changes are awesome and add another level of customization that is unprecedented in any other game.

that aside, i'd really like to see what others have to say about the change and my idea for a tweak, or any other ideas for that matter.

[Soni]

Breaking stealth after attacking makes perfect sense. It is suppose to be like that in D&D.

- However, in D&D when any1 makes a bluff check vs enmey (depends on the environment of course), he can choose to make a stealth check again to hide and regain stealth. I hope Turbine can implement this in the near future.

- Moreover, when a rogue in stealth attacks an enemy who is asleep, it would make sense the attack wouldn't alert other enemies not in the area or who are also asleep.

[v4n17y]

agreed, it does make perfect sense, but you can throw a stone while hidden as a distraction and still stay hidden. that part is gone now. it takes away the viability of stealth as an option for anything but sneak attacking. if i wanted to play a straight combat rogue, i'd go back to playing WoW.

[Velexia]

...and its the same for smashing an object to draw attention.

Maybe something like non-assassinate sneak attacks against MOB's automatically break stealth, but for an object-targeted or untargeted attack you stay stealthed.

I totally spaced that, yeah, this feature is quite essential to the keen minded sneak.

[Ardenburl]

Instead of throwing a dagger or breaking something to draw attention, just build a stack of the level two noise maker traps (25 mechanical parts get you 5 traps) places them move away and they make the noise for you drawing the mobs off.


Arden

[v4n17y]

Instead of throwing a dagger or breaking something to draw attention, just build a stack of the level two noise maker traps (25 mechanical parts get you 5 traps) places them move away and they make the noise for you drawing the mobs off.


Arden

is this actually a viable option for a non-mechanic?

if so then i'll gladly concede the point and let this one die.

[Ardenburl]

You don't have to be a mechanic to craft traps, your place-able trap DCs are going to suck if you aren't a mechanic though. With a 67 DD at the time of setting the trap with mechanic II you can hit a dc of 44.6.

The noise makers don't get a dc because they just make noise, so its very viable. Also the amount of parts you collect are based on the dc of the trap you are Disabling, and how many rogue levels you have.


Last night I made a stack of "Deadly Fire Traps" they do 50d6 damage, it took 100 mechanic parts, 100 fire trap parts, 250 siber dragon shards, and a strong fire ele soul gem, set one off in monastery normal dragged a group of 10 mobs into it and only one saved.

[v4n17y]

You don't have to be a mechanic to craft traps, your place-able trap DCs are going to suck if you aren't a mechanic though. With a 67 DD at the time of setting the trap with mechanic II you can hit a dc of 44.6.

The noise makers don't get a dc because they just make noise, so its very viable. Also the amount of parts you collect are based on the dc of the trap you are Disabling, and how many rogue levels you have.


Last night I made a stack of "Deadly Fire Traps" they do 50d6 damage, it took 100 mechanic parts, 100 fire trap parts, 250 siber dragon shards, and a strong fire ele soul gem, set one off in monastery normal dragged a group of 10 mobs into it and only one saved.

so the only really useful traps, you need a pocket wizard for...

awesome.

at least i can still distract and assassinate i suppose. </3

[ikkle.D]

I seem to remember that attacking breaking stealth is no new thing.. I don't know how it was here but when I played on the EU servers around the time that the level cap was 12 attacking always breaked your stealth. When Gianthold came in game you could stay hidden and still 'strike' with your weapons.

[GhoulsTouch]

agreed, it does make perfect sense, but you can throw a stone while hidden as a distraction and still stay hidden. that part is gone now. it takes away the viability of stealth as an option for anything but sneak attacking. if i wanted to play a straight combat rogue, i'd go back to playing WoW.

Okay people are probably going to get sick of me going on and on about it but you can bluff and still remain in sneak, you probably didn't invest in it though like the first rogues I made because the forums had nothing to support it. But that's how you draw out mobs one at a time easy.

It's okay you can get sick now if you want...I am sorry.

[v4n17y]

Okay people are probably going to get sick of me going on and on about it but you can bluff and still remain in sneak, you probably didn't invest in it though like the first rogues I made because the forums had nothing to support it. But that's how you draw out mobs one at a time easy.

It's okay you can get sick now if you want...I am sorry.

to be honest, i've kept bluff maxed on all of my rogues. ^_^ old habits (from pnp) die hard. although i haven't quite figured out the full mechanics of bluff yet, and don't really understand how you can single pull with it.

[Ardenburl]

It really comes down to your goal, unless the quest has a kill xxx to complete the quest, just stealth it and don't kill anything and get the 10% xp bonus. Summon clickies or summon scrolls if you have the umd are great for drawing stuff off or holding attention to get those couple extra back attacks.

Find the combination that makes your play time the most enjoyable for yourself and have at it.


On a side note if you plan to be a master trap maker be ready to grind your backside off for parts, mechanical parts are easy, the others take a lot of grind due to the lack of high DC non mechanical traps.

[v4n17y]

i'm really into the idea of being super stealthy and only killing what i absolutely have to. as for trapmaking... well, meh, really couldn't care less about it.

the question it raises for me though, is if you have stationary mobs, what good is a noisemaker that is supposedly a mine going to do? is it timed, is it detonated from a distance? or is it triggered by a mob moving close to it i.e. making it useless to the effect that it needs to be used for.

[DanaO]

From the perspective of a habitual soloist, I don't mind the change in that it's often not necessary to attack enemies in the first place, and I've never relied on distractions or single pulling. At the same time, it's not a balance improvement from that perspective. Being able to occasionally move up a patrol of oneshottables from behind, taking them all out as you go isn't that different than being able to walk up to them, ignore their attacks, and pound them into the ground, or blast them all with a single spell - which other classes can do at the same level with the same enemies. And it's actually unreasonable to assume that every creature being attacked or missed by an attack will instantly scream an alarm, or that you can't trade attack speed for attempting to fight or dismantle objects quietly. I've also noticed that sometimes after a successful, lethal sneak attack other enemies out of line of sight who can't see me until my Hide's back on again and I'm a distance away from the first kill still know exactly where I am when they come into view... and sometimes it's not because my movements are too noisy.

In parties, it shouldn't be much of a change in that a rogue will normally use sneak attacks while out of stealth. I can see this change pushing rogues to seek parties, but not how it causes parties to want rogues.

My real issue with this is that rogues aren't getting the "reasonable" improvements for stealth. It's not unreasonable to be able to oil door hinges and machinery to silently manipulate objects, to do tumbling moves without breaking stealth, to take out sleeping enemies quietly, or for a thrown weapon to draw attention to the destination more than the thrower. I also suspect some low-level quests that were basically designed to be stealthed through such as "Stealthy Repossession" are no longer balanced as intended as a result and should be reviewed.

[AylinIsAwesome]

i'm really into the idea of being super stealthy and only killing what i absolutely have to. as for trapmaking... well, meh, really couldn't care less about it.

the question it raises for me though, is if you have stationary mobs, what good is a noisemaker that is supposedly a mine going to do? is it timed, is it detonated from a distance? or is it triggered by a mob moving close to it i.e. making it useless to the effect that it needs to be used for.

Noisemakers do what they sound like they do...make noise. The mobs go and investigate.

[Ardenburl]

i'm really into the idea of being super stealthy and only killing what i absolutely have to. as for trapmaking... well, meh, really couldn't care less about it.

the question it raises for me though, is if you have stationary mobs, what good is a noisemaker that is supposedly a mine going to do? is it timed, is it detonated from a distance? or is it triggered by a mob moving close to it i.e. making it useless to the effect that it needs to be used for.


The noise maker is timed, after set it goes off in about 10 seconds or so, you will have to play with them to perfect using them as well, learning the right distance away to set them so they will respond. I am a tad geeky so the traps give me a warm fuzzy, especially setting grease and web traps.

[GhoulsTouch]

to be honest, i've kept bluff maxed on all of my rogues. ^_^ old habits (from pnp) die hard. although i haven't quite figured out the full mechanics of bluff yet, and don't really understand how you can single pull with it.

You can use it in sneak...here wait a second I will link you to it.

[Ardenburl]

My real issue with this is that rogues aren't getting the "reasonable" enhancements for stealth. It's not unreasonable to be able to oil door hinges and machinery to silently manipulate objects, to do tumbling moves without breaking stealth, to take out sleeping enemies quietly, or for a thrown weapon to draw attention to the thrower instead of the destination. I also suspect some low-level quests that were basically designed to be stealthed through such as "Stealthy Repossession" are no longer balanced as intended as a result and should be reviewed.

Don't forget "Sap" doesn't break stealth, so you can stun them and cut them down one at a time as well, though you only get one or two good hits before they wake up.

[GhoulsTouch]

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Skill:Bluff
Quote from the Link:

"Functionality
Allows you to bluff certain NPCs or make a monster vulnerable to a sneak attack for a few seconds.

After a one second pause for disruption of bluff, if a successful roll it draws the attention of the selected target and grants a sneak attack for a few seconds. If the roll fails no matter how good your next roll is they will all fail. This can be done with out taking you out of sneak mode. You only need to have them targeted you don't need to have line of site.They will search or "agro" towards you but not alert others around them like normal to chase after you as long as it's out of their view.

This is a very good ambush skill to pick enemies off one by one, rather than taking them all on at once and be overwhelmed or in solo. This skill will not work on animals and low intelligent creatures.

The bluff skill is also used in certain conversations, allowing additional conversation paths."



The bluff lasts quite awhile, far longer then with improved feint. You sit in sneak mode and wait for them to come to you then *POP* I have even done this in corridors after I sneaked in, targeted them, then snuck back out to only bluff them from out of view.

[LawLessOne]

I did 'Stealthy Repossessions' last night. The major difference is that you cant break all the boxes and expect to stay hidden. Basically if you forgo the ransack bonus then you can complete the quest about like before.

[Darklight_Soulweaver]

being able to chuck a dagger at the floor to draw a mobs attention and sneak past is part of what a rogue should be able to do, and under the new system, that simply doesn't work. and its the same for smashing an object to draw attention.



Even before the update you do break stealth when you throw anything so that's not a new thing. So if you were able to do anything like that before then you should still be able to do now. I just stand out of sight of the mobs when I throw anything to get their attention.

Regarding the breaking stealth when attacking...I don't mind it. When soloing often time I broke out of stealth mode before attacking anyway. That's because you can do a lot more attacks in normal mode than you would in stealth mode.

[v4n17y]

on all of the occasions that i've used bluff to try and single pull, all of the mobs in the group came with him. do i have to be out of LoS to single pull?

as for the noise makers, i stumbled on a thread dedicated to traps, so i'm currently researching there but it seems like it's all info from beta so i don't know how much of it is relevant to what was implemented in the U5 patch.

[peetrs]

Breaking stealth after attacking makes perfect sense. It is suppose to be like that in D&D.

- However, in D&D when any1 makes a bluff check vs enmey (depends on the environment of course), he can choose to make a stealth check again to hide and regain stealth. I hope Turbine can implement this in the near future.

- Moreover, when a rogue in stealth attacks an enemy who is asleep, it would make sense the attack wouldn't alert other enemies not in the area or who are also asleep.

Yah and attacking someone sleeping should instanly count as Coup-de-Grace, not just granted crit as we have now.

[Therigar]

I seem to remember that attacking breaking stealth is no new thing.. I don't know how it was here but when I played on the EU servers around the time that the level cap was 12 attacking always breaked your stealth. When Gianthold came in game you could stay hidden and still 'strike' with your weapons.

This is correct, attacking use to break stealth. Then it was changed so that attacking did not break stealth and, guess what, people complained.... :eek:

Now Turbine's changed it back and, yep, people are complaining. :confused:

It simply proves that no matter what is done, people are going to complain. :rolleyes:

[GhoulsTouch]

on all of the occasions that i've used bluff to try and single pull, all of the mobs in the group came with him. do i have to be out of LoS to single pull?
.

Did you do it in sneak mode? I just did it earlier today after the servers came back up no problem. You need to make sure you don't fail your Bluff/Hide/Move silently checks.

Bluff here would be similar to making a noise to draw an enemy out then taking him by surprise. Improved feint uses bluff similar but with a feigned attack, it's faster but you got to act quicker too. I use the Cleave feat with that so I just have to hit buttons 1-2. Then 3 for diplomacy if needed.

[Ardenburl]

The first thing you should do if you want to get into trap making is go to the harbor and talk to the free agent vendors and buy the three guides. If you going to be serious about it, also make sure your Free agent rep is over 150 so you can have access to the all of the grenade bottles.


All you need to do to make noise maker traps is put 25 mechanical parts in the trap maker by hasdills(sp) shipment in the harbor.

[M.ham]

I highly recommend watching the videos posted by Ghoste..... http://www.youtube.com/user/ArcaneConstruct

The Shadow Mage 101A-D are highly recommended.

For those who are playing pureish Rogues as opposed to Wizard/Rogues you can UMD an invisibility scroll. Watch in Ghoste's videos were he uses this tactic to move mobs from a path (basically performs the same role as a noise maker but you are the noise maker). As mentioned you can UMD a summon scroll to help move mobs as well.

Again highly recommended viewing.

M.

[AbsynthMinded]

This is correct, attacking use to break stealth. Then it was changed so that attacking did not break stealth and, guess what, people complained.... :eek:

Now Turbine's changed it back and, yep, people are complaining. :confused:

It simply proves that no matter what is done, people are going to complain. :rolleyes:

The complaint in the end has to do with forcing people to relearn tactics they had to relearn from the time before, and undoubtedly will have to relearn again next time.. Turbine just likes to tinker with how the world works and doesn't give a flip how players feel about it one way or another. How many months/years was it before they 'fixed' it? If Turbine was on top of things the issue would never have become something to complain about, because the 'fix' would have been immediate and players would happily go back to the tactics they had learned in the first place.

[GhoulsTouch]

I highly recommend watching the videos posted by Ghoste..... http://www.youtube.com/user/ArcaneConstruct
Again highly recommended viewing.

M.

Impressive. If I was going to make a WF wizrogue this would be the route I would take.

[DanaO]

Don't forget "Sap" doesn't break stealth.
Thanks. Keep forgetting that - I irrationally avoid learning the technique. It keeps bringing up bad memories of WoW as a rogue.

I tried "Stealthy Repossession" at level 3 (different characters), a couple of days ago and today. Soloed it (first time experience) on normal before, did it on the third try on casual after (issues with too many witch doctors spawning to watch levers I had to pull). Maybe it was too easy before, but the experience left me with the nagging suspicion that a bard or spellcaster loaded with mind-affecting spells to lock down the Prophets might actually now be better than a rogue at soloing the quest.

More generally, it's not normal for the game to note or reward nonlethal approaches to any problem. "0 kills" doesn't even come with a label on the XP sheet, and Korthos Island certainly doesn't teach anybody not to kill everything in their way. I don't mind the idea of the game getting harder for rogues if that comes with recognition of players who can deal with the added challenges - classes don't have to be perfectly balanced, and certainly not in every situation.

I'm also a bit bothered by the fact what rogues are getting in exchange for reduced sneakiness is... ways to make big bangs and alert guards, or avoid using stealth to lure a guard into a trap.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I see the U5 stealth/attack change as a major nerf to sneaky rogues.

One big one is the barrel breaking thing. Which I think they could find a way to make us stay in sneak mode for that at least.

I didn't solo a lot, but what I did do was stay in Sneak mode and get a huge kill count on a squishy Rogue....and barely take any damage at all.
The ability to attack and stay in sneak mode is(was) very powerful.

Some people complained it hurt their DPS. but I saw very few things live long enough from my approx three SAs against them that I didn't care about that.
If they did switch agro to me, my AC was so low that they usualy knocked me out of sneak mode and I could swing back at fulld speed.

I really wish I could still do that. :(

I think I can learn to adapt though. But it's still a big nerf IMO.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I highly recommend watching the videos posted by Ghoste..... http://www.youtube.com/user/ArcaneConstruct

The Shadow Mage 101A-D are highly recommended.

For those who are playing pureish Rogues as opposed to Wizard/Rogues you can UMD an invisibility scroll. Watch in Ghoste's videos were he uses this tactic to move mobs from a path (basically performs the same role as a noise maker but you are the noise maker). As mentioned you can UMD a summon scroll to help move mobs as well.

Again highly recommended viewing.

M.

You can also UMD Summon Monster I scrolls to distract monsters with. And move them away from something.

I think there are some spells that cause noise too. I haven't actualy experimented with this yet. But supposedly some AOE spells make noise when cast and can be targetted at an area. The trick is to cast from around a corener out of line of sight.

[DanaO]

Thanks for the repeated notes on Bluff. It is indeed almost frighteningly powerful. I'd never tried using it at those ranges without line of sight to the target. Especially since it seems even after an initial failed roll, it's still possible with repeated attempts to pull that target to you alone, out of hearing of anybody else, and sometimes to even still get off a sneak attack if you've repositioned approriately in the meantime.

Still not fond of the pulling approach, but it's undeniably more effective than the stealth kills I'd been using. No need to time my movements to slip into a patrol route or prioritize targets by position. Less fun - but there's nothing wrong with forcing a prestige enhancement on people who specifically want to do things a certain way. As long as we're sure the Bluff skill is intended to be that powerful and won't be on the list of things to fix for Update 6.

From the forums, not always breaking stealth with an attack gets in some players' ways. Barring the introduction of a new toggle similar to "Defensive Fighting"'s to specify that the character wants to make the tradeoff, it's clearly easiest for the developers to just cut the behavior. As appealing as I find the option of attempting to fight quietly ("can try" is so much more interesting than "can" or "can't"), the more so as neither sneaking nor attempting a quiet takedown are supposed to be the exclusive province of rogues, this probably isn't worth the effort of properly rebalancing right now.

The above said, I'd still like to see the options for noncombat stealth improve. The only noncombat uses of tumbling I can think of are trap dodging and (for some control setups) precision positioning, so it shouldn't break anything else if tumbling doesn't automatically break stealth. There are times it just feels good to do what my favorite wiki calls an "Unnecessary Roll". And while granting rogues as a class automatic silent door opening and mechanism manipulation is ridiculous, a (possibly unreliable) way to prepare an object for quiet operation isn't. There are reasons the standard PnP "adventurer's kit" includes oil.

[Calebro]

More generally, it's not normal for the game to note or reward nonlethal approaches to any problem. "0 kills" doesn't even come with a label on the XP sheet, It certainly does.
Insidious Cunning Bonus +10%
Or if you screw that up a bit, there's the Devious Bonus +7%
The number of kills allowed to award these bonuses seem to be set at percentages of total mobs in the dungeon (as far as I can tell, I may be wrong) rather than at specific numbers, which means they vary per quest.

I, for one, personally love the fact that attacking a mob breaks stealth. I also really hate that attacking inanimate objects does it as well. I'd absolutely LOVE if they coded it following these guidelines:
attacking mobs breaks stealth (exception: assassination attempts)
attacking inanimate objects does not break stealth
using switches and levers breaks stealth
opening doors breaks stealth
stealth allows jumping
stealth allows tumbling
fix mobs' ability to know exactly where you are even with no aggro and no reason for them to know where you are (I'm looking at YOU, archers!)
fix mobs' "search pattern" AI to actually be a random search, as it should be, rather than following you around perfectly, while simultaneously not knowing where you are


This would make for the most realistic sneaking experience that I could think of, while still creating a challenge.

[SquelchHU]

I'm a bit on the fence about this whole attacking automatically breaking stealth thing. on one hand, yeah it makes sense. on the other hand, it takes away from the utility and mechanics of a rogue. being able to chuck a dagger at the floor to draw a mobs attention and sneak past is part of what a rogue should be able to do, and under the new system, that simply doesn't work. and its the same for smashing an object to draw attention.

a huge reason i started playing this game was because i could really play a rogue, i could rely on stealth to get me through things, and now that aspect is pretty much just gone.

I really think this needs to go back to the way it was, or tweaked to allow for using stealth as a viable option again.

Maybe something like non-assassinate sneak attacks against MOB's automatically break stealth, but for an object-targeted or untargeted attack you stay stealthed.

Your statements make sense. However this is DDO.

No tactics, DPS only*, FINAL DESTINATION!

* - DPS may or may not be nerfed hard at any time.

[v4n17y]

i've mostly figured out bluff at this point.

it seems as though you can still break objects and restealth, undetected, if you are far enough away, and out of line-of-sight.

all in all, i'd say this sneak attack change is for the better, but i'd like to see some improvements to the stealth mechanics. especially with things like stealthy reposession, and a few other quests, where you need to draw mobs away from a door or an object but it's generally impossible for you to have the materials to make a noisemaker considering the absolute earliest you can get the Trapmaking feat is level 3, unless you're human.

[QuantumFX]

is this actually a viable option for a non-mechanic?

Very viable. The main difference between traps and the various rogue specialties is that mechanic rogue damaging traps are way more potent.

[M.ham]

i've mostly figured out bluff at this point.

it seems as though you can still break objects and restealth, undetected, if you are far enough away, and out of line-of-sight.

all in all, i'd say this sneak attack change is for the better, but i'd like to see some improvements to the stealth mechanics. especially with things like stealthy reposession, and a few other quests, where you need to draw mobs away from a door or an object but it's generally impossible for you to have the materials to make a noisemaker considering the absolute earliest you can get the Trapmaking feat is level 3, unless you're human.

Watch http://www.youtube.com/user/ArcaneConstruct#p/u/15/4Tp34eXOuWY for ideas on how to move mobs away from doors and switches. Collect those Invis. potions and items with charges of Invis. they can be used at low level. There are 2 staffs you can get with summon charges on them that can be used as well.

M.

[GhoulsTouch]

I built a drow geared around this shadow mage. It makes use of bluff, so you can bluff enemies to single fight your summoned creature and is specced for enchantment in order to make use of spells such as mass suggestion.
How does it look?

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Card Trick
Level 20 True Neutral Drow Male
(2 Rogue \ 18 Wizard)
Hit Points: 186
Spell Points: 1546
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 8
Reflex: 13
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 8 8
Dexterity 15 18
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 19 26
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 10 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 8
Bluff 4 24
Concentration 4 24
Diplomacy 0 0
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 4 4
Heal 1 1
Hide 6 24
Intimidate 0 0
Jump 3 5
Listen 3 5
Move Silently 6 24
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 4 8
Search 4 10
Spot 3 5
Swim -1 -1
Tumble 6 8
Use Magic Device 4 23

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Mental Toughness


Level 3 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 4 (Wizard)


Level 5 (Wizard)


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Spell Focus: Enchantment


Level 7 (Wizard)


Level 8 (Rogue)


Level 9 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 10 (Wizard)


Level 11 (Wizard)


Level 12 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 13 (Wizard)


Level 14 (Wizard)


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration


Level 16 (Wizard)


Level 17 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Empower Spell


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration


Level 19 (Wizard)


Level 20 (Wizard)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Arcane Fluidity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing I
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing II
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Quickening I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Bluff I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Energy II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Elements II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Energy I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Energy II
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements I
Enhancement: Wizard Lineage of Deadly Elements II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy Manipulation III
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation I
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation II
Enhancement: Wizard Elemental Manipulation III
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Wizard Spell Penetration III
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar III
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar IV
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II

[Ghoste]

You can also UMD Summon Monster I scrolls to distract monsters with. And move them away from something.

I think there are some spells that cause noise too. I haven't actualy experimented with this yet. But supposedly some AOE spells make noise when cast and can be targetted at an area. The trick is to cast from around a corener out of line of sight.
Haste works for this, and doesnt break invis either.

[Ghoste]

Impressive. If I was going to make a WF wizrogue this would be the route I would take.
It's a pure wizard. No rogue.