Looks like small guilds are in trouble

[Grendyll]

Forget guild leveling look at the store bought reward mechanisms for guilds. So, I can buy +2 to all stats from the DDO store for my guild. Let's say I can reasonably afford to do this for 1 hour per week. If I am in a guild of 7 people with similar ability to afford stuff from the DDO store, I could have +2 to all stats for 1 hour per day. If I am in a guild with 168 other people, I could have the buff constantly. R.I.P. small guilds.

I thought the DDO store was going to be limited with regard to the magnitude of impact on in-game character power, but more and more, the power creep from DDO store bought advantages makes me sad. I fear that we will indeed soon have a game tuned to the point where not spending money in the in-game store = being horribly underpowered and progressing at a snail's pace. I would like to add my voice to those saying that the latest update is a step in the wrong direction for the game. (Never mind the other nerfs...)

[JohnRove]

Feel free to correct me if i am wrong, but aren't those same items available through in-game means, just at a higher guild level?

[Qindark]

I think the small guilds will be fine. In fact, they are probably least affected by change, since I bet most of them are there for fun. Nerf or no Nerf, I'll still get on to join my guildies in running through the game.

[Theodorus1]

Qindark:

But, you won't be UBER...

/sarc off

This is a PvE game; ultimate superiority doesn't really matter all that much. If you can finish a quest on level with a group of people you actually like and enjoy gaming with, what else do you really need?

[Zenako]

Feel free to correct me if i am wrong, but aren't those same items available through in-game means, just at a higher guild level?

Most of the buffs in the Guild Airships are on TOP of your other normal buffs, so they are a marked increase in character power for those that have them over those who do not.

Also the guild buffs LAST for 1 hour, but the shrine or vendor you get them from on your Airship lasts for some extended period of time measured in days, each time you renew those features. You merely need to return to the airship to renew the buffs between quests, until the contract for that service expires (most are something like a full week of service).

[Qindark]

Qindark:

But, you won't be UBER...

/sarc off

This is a PvE game; ultimate superiority doesn't really matter all that much. If you can finish a quest on level with a group of people you actually like and enjoy gaming with, what else do you really need?


Maybe its because I'm not uber now, that I won't miss it
*grin*

[aax]

i normally dont post much in all my years playing til recent.

i 100% agree with you.

people who have been here for years want to be heard.

[gserlenga]

Personally I could care less about the guild nonsense, and if it increases the egoism and rude attitudes of uber players more as a result, I could care even less than less.

[moops]

Why?
Our small guild already beats all current content fast and with no resources, we don't need in of that Airship Cr@p.

[systemstate]

Personally I could care less about the guild nonsense, and if it increases the egoism and rude attitudes of uber players more as a result, I could care even less than less.

Well said. /signed

[KoboldKiller]

I also don't get why small guilds will suffer?

It is what it is.

The fact is most small guilds are that way for a reason. They want small groups of people they enjoy playing with and could care less about being a high reputation guild or being raid heavy.

This will do nothing to those guilds.

[systemstate]

Why?
Our small guild already beats all current content fast and with no resources, we don't need in of that Airship Cr@p.

Unless... "New in Update 6- TWO fabulous level 17-20 raids and several new level 17-20 quests! Access them now from your upgraded guild airship!".


That would suck.

EDIT: I still don't care much about airships or guild renown.

[SquelchHU]

Unless... "New in Update 6- TWO fabulous level 17-20 raids and several new level 17-20 quests! Access them now from your upgraded guild airship!".


That would suck.

EDIT: I still don't care much about airships or guild renown.

Naw, new endgame content is Nerfdate 10. It will have a boss with 5k HP (not a typo) but be regarded as impossible due to lack of DPS.

[Zenako]

I also don't get why small guilds will suffer?

It is what it is.

The fact is most small guilds are that way for a reason. They want small groups of people they enjoy playing with and could care less about being a high reputation guild or being raid heavy.

This will do nothing to those guilds.

But KK, you see the old guild paradigm is now obsolete. Prior to update 5, all a Guild was, was an association of like minded players who enjoyed running with each other. THere were no tangible game benefits from being in a guild other than access to players of that guild. Post Update 5, being a member of guild still gives all the aforementioned benefits, PLUS access to whatever guild perks that guild has achieved or funded.

Where as before all that mattered was your Guild NAME for getting into a quest or raid many times. Now it will more likely be your GUILD NAME AND NUMBER that can be attached to the application. People from High ranking guilds will be able to contribute more spells, more dps, more anything to a quest or raid than those from a low ranking guild can do. It will be a discriminator, and a blunt one at that many time.

[Grendyll]

This isn't exactly about casual versus elite. It is about small guilds versus large guilds. Elite players are just as likely to be in a small guild as casual players. What I am concerned about is the reward mechanism that 1) strongly favors large guilds (guilds with large rosters of active players), and 2) provides rewards that have a significant impact on character performance and power. The devs said that there would be a bonus for small guilds to keep up in the guild-leveling process through renown acquisition (although the small guild bonus is currently bugged/disabled, it will supposedly be fixed soon(tm)). But, the reward mechanisms where 1 player buys something for the whole guild to use, clearly favors large guilds again swinging things back in their favor. It would not matter if the rewards were minor/cosmetic things, but they are not, they are the core bonuses that every character desires and benefits from greatly.

I oppose this for two reasons. 1) I don't like the creep of powerful stuff coming from the DDO store as a general rule and 2) I don't like that it favors large guilds over small guilds.

I wish I could have the cavalier attitude and believe that I can just go on playing the game as always. But, in my long experience with MMOs, this is one more step down a slippery slope. One day you will wake up and realize that the game has had its core challenges tuned with all of the DDO store bought large guild bonuses in mind and factored in to the balance equations. And the gameplay we all love will suffer for it. Probably there will be no one defining change or moment, but it will be the slow death, as the players that love what the game is today (and has been in the past) are replaced by players that don't mind whipping out the credit card to buy quest completions. Maybe Turbine wants to replace the current player-base with a new player-base that will fork over cash to them at every play session, I hope there are enough of them. However, I will not be among them, that is all I was trying to say. Perhaps it is not too late to change course.

[KoboldKiller]

But KK, you see the old guild paradigm is now obsolete. Prior to update 5, all a Guild was, was an association of like minded players who enjoyed running with each other. THere were no tangible game benefits from being in a guild other than access to players of that guild. Post Update 5, being a member of guild still gives all the aforementioned benefits, PLUS access to whatever guild perks that guild has achieved or funded.

Where as before all that mattered was your Guild NAME for getting into a quest or raid many times. Now it will more likely be your GUILD NAME AND NUMBER that can be attached to the application. People from High ranking guilds will be able to contribute more spells, more dps, more anything to a quest or raid than those from a low ranking guild can do. It will be a discriminator, and a blunt one at that many time.


Valid points.

[Grendyll]

But KK, you see the old guild paradigm is now obsolete. Prior to update 5, all a Guild was, was an association of like minded players who enjoyed running with each other. THere were no tangible game benefits from being in a guild other than access to players of that guild. Post Update 5, being a member of guild still gives all the aforementioned benefits, PLUS access to whatever guild perks that guild has achieved or funded.

Where as before all that mattered was your Guild NAME for getting into a quest or raid many times. Now it will more likely be your GUILD NAME AND NUMBER that can be attached to the application. People from High ranking guilds will be able to contribute more spells, more dps, more anything to a quest or raid than those from a low ranking guild can do. It will be a discriminator, and a blunt one at that many time.

QFT.

You can say that it will not matter to you all you want. But, the reality is that the game balanced is tuned with average/peak character capabilities in mind. And those capabilities are now directly tied to the benefits that your guild is granting to you through the airship. It will be a new discriminating factor. Tied to the magnitude of the buffs available. I thought they would be minor. Now it is looking like they will be much larger than I had anticipated. And if they continue to grow...they will dramatically alter the social climate of the game and the server communities, and I am feeling it will be for the worse not the better.

[Zenako]

QFT.

You can say that it will not matter to you all you want. But, the reality is that the game balanced is tuned with average/peak character capabilities in mind. And those capabilities are now directly tied to the benefits that your guild is granting to you through the airship. It will be a new discriminating factor. Tied to the magnitude of the buffs available. I thought they would be minor. Now it is looking like they will be much larger than I had anticipated. And if they continue to grow...they will dramatically alter the social climate of the game and the server communities, and I am feeling it will be for the worse not the better.

That was almost the universal opinion presented by many in the threads on the Lammania forums on this issue. They are overstepping the game design and reaching beyond where they needed to, to merely incentivize guilds and guild features.

[IronClan]

Two things people don't yet realize who weren't reading the Lamania forums: Minimum Guild level will spawn on loot now with augment slots based on guild level. If you pull a +5 holy silver pg Khopesh (insert random loot that matters to you) with a minimum guild level of 70 you are A) SOL B) looking to join a guild with a level above 70 even though you don't care for guilds/large guilds or C) leaving your small guild for a guild that can achieve and maintain a level above 70.

The next thing is the selection of overpowered buffs will mostly be the domain of larger guilds that have the largest airships that can fit all the buffs on board. These include (and they stack with other buffs): +2 to all stats, +2 to hit, +2 damage, +2 all saves, +1 Spell DC, +10% healing Amp +5% XP 30 fire resist 30 cold resist, 30 electric, sonic, acid and etc....

Squelch I see you've commented in this thread maybe I can enlist your aid in an experiment (or maybe not but whatever someone else can chime in):

Would you say it's a safe assumption that you would call a Character a gimp if he wanted to join your LFM and you didn't know him and he had these disadvantages: (compared to everyone else in your party) -2 to all stats, -2 to hit, -2 damage, -2 all saves, -1 Spell DC, -30 fire resist -30 cold resist, -30 electric -30 acid and MINUS some other stuff etc... (again relative to all the other characters in your party ).

[dragons1ayer74]

Status and convenience items are one thing but really ML guild weapon restrictions plus many in-game benefits just seems like too much. My play-time is casual my game-style is not and I love making and leveling characters now after all this time in the game I suddenly feel it will be a need to join a large and active guild.

[Septimus]

<snip>

I oppose this for two reasons. 1) I don't like the creep of powerful stuff coming from the DDO store as a general rule and 2) I don't like that it favors large guilds over small guilds.

I wish I could have the cavalier attitude and believe that I can just go on playing the game as always. But, in my long experience with MMOs, this is one more step down a slippery slope. One day you will wake up and realize that the game has had its core challenges tuned with all of the DDO store bought large guild bonuses in mind and factored in to the balance equations. And the gameplay we all love will suffer for it. Probably there will be no one defining change or moment, but it will be the slow death, as the players that love what the game is today (and has been in the past) are replaced by players that don't mind whipping out the credit card to buy quest completions. Maybe Turbine wants to replace the current player-base with a new player-base that will fork over cash to them at every play session, I hope there are enough of them. However, I will not be among them, that is all I was trying to say. Perhaps it is not too late to change course.

I thought this would be the case when mana pots appeared in the store. I am pleasantly surprised it hasn't noticeably happened. I suspect the guild bonuses, nice as they may be, will not make enough of a difference for me to really miss them on my unguilded characters. Time will tell, but I'm not as pessimistic.

[SquelchHU]

Two things people don't yet realize who weren't reading the Lamania forums: Minimum Guild level will spawn on loot now with augment slots based on guild level. If you pull a +5 holy silver pg Khopesh (insert random loot that matters to you) with a minimum guild level of 70 you are A) SOL B) looking to join a guild with a level above 70 even though you don't care for guilds/large guilds or C) leaving your small guild for a guild that can achieve and maintain a level above 70.

Never heard of guild level requirements on gear. I have heard that to use the slots you need a minimum guild level. But I've completely ignored the guild thing, anything that seriously believes there's more merit in doing **** like Kobold Assault or ADQ1 on Casual than... things that would actually be accomplishments is a broken system anyways, and one that was quickly disabled for this same reason.


The next thing is the selection of overpowered buffs will mostly be the domain of larger guilds that have the largest airships that can fit all the buffs on board. These include (and they stack with other buffs): +2 to all stats, +2 to hit, +2 damage, +2 all saves, +1 Spell DC, +10% healing Amp +5% XP 30 fire resist 30 cold resist, 30 electric, sonic, acid and etc....

Squelch I see you've commented in this thread maybe I can enlist your aid in an experiment (or maybe not but whatever someone else can chime in):

Would you say it's a safe assumption that you would call a Character a gimp if he wanted to join your LFM and you didn't know him and he had these disadvantages: (compared to everyone else in your party) -2 to all stats, -2 to hit, -2 damage, -2 all saves, -1 Spell DC, -30 fire resist -30 cold resist, -30 electric -30 acid and MINUS some other stuff etc... (again relative to all the other characters in your party ).

Cost/benefit analysis. That's the main factor. How long does it take to grind out all that ****? If it's like Epic items where you can grind on it for a while and end up getting some extremely marginal benefit for it like 'can free head slot of Minos Legen and put another helm on' as is the case when analyzing one of the BEST Epic items (Belt of the Mrornon) then I could care less.

If it's something that's not too grindy to get, and that doesn't involve BS like farming trivial trash mobs then yes, I would expect it. However it's really a moot point, since Nerfdate 5 made me cancel my sub, and the one good thing about F2P is that non subscribers are still Premium and therefore can post.

Of course with the way it's set up even the fail guilds will end up being high rank. They'd still get auto declined regardless.

[Ode1st]

They should just implement some kind of renown scaling based on # of active guild players. It can't be too difficult to get a math guy to do some equation. The activity can be determined from frequency of login or frequency of quest completion or whatever. MyDDO already tracks quest completion and other things, a guild renown scaling ratio could do the same.

[petegunn]

I can see the lfm's now "shroud level 20's with highest available airship buffs only" on normal.

[Emili]

Power-gamers are typically in smaller guilds not generally the larger ones. While power players tend to flock together they often adhere to the nature of smaller runs also due to the power level of their build/character they really do not need many other's to get a "complete." and is quickest with but a few more power-gamers around rather then having a casual abound in tow. Each member tend to run a dozen or more characters thru a series of raids/epics a night within confines of a "well oiled machine."

Most large guilds have a higher % of more casual players and average players than power gamers often for reasons as given above... Large guilds generally become full of cliques ... people playing at differring time-frames and as such gavitate to like personalites and styles into subsets of the guild.

Guilds tend to fluctuate in both goal and demeanor...

Small guilds have a tendancy to stress when a few players move on to other interest - be it in game or out - thus some move into another small guild while large guilds tend to absorb seme of those guilds also

Large guilds eventualy peak and implode after certain limits hit and cliques within meet with conflicts ... i.e. schedule conflicts in grouping, raiding etc... and people move on. I've seen guilds organized in strict sence and those which are more lofty in either case it is friendships which hold people together and forms bonds - people have a tendancy to run with one another often enough they tend to play alike and seek each other out.

I've seen as many ad 83 and as few as myself guild growth is like such comes and goes ... power of ones guild comes and goes... epitome of a working guild in DDO is actually not much more than fill a raid or two as beyond the 12 person grouping you lose the chance to bring more people into forming and replenishing bonds.

[Yaro]

Would you say it's a safe assumption that you would call a Character a gimp if he wanted to join your LFM and you didn't know him and he had these disadvantages: (compared to everyone else in your party) -2 to all stats, -2 to hit, -2 damage, -2 all saves, -1 Spell DC, -30 fire resist -30 cold resist, -30 electric -30 acid and MINUS some other stuff etc... (again relative to all the other characters in your party ).

This is 100% correct. Already I get irritated when Raid leaders ask me what kind of weapon I'm carrying before I can join. At 19th level Ranger I requested to join a Shroud raid and was asked if I had a Min II weapon. I said, "No" and wasn't let in. He only changed his mind after I asked if they were doing it on Elite.

No imagine trying to join Raids when your toon is a relative gimp because you're not in the mega-guild with the uber-buffs. Everyone seems to be crying about TWF and THF, but these nerfs will hurt all players equally. You're not hearing a lot of complaining about the guild stuff because the large guilds, with most players, won't be hurt and so don't care.

If I have to join a large guild just to be able to join Raids I'm not going to be happy about that.

This needs to be undone and undone fast.

[cforce]

I can see the lfm's now "shroud level 20's with highest available airship buffs only" on normal.

QFT. I wouldn't be surprised to see this at all. Shorthand: "GL 50+ only"!

I'm not certain that's necessarily bad, though. (I think it is, mind you -- but I'm still trying to make up my mind.) I'm definitely one of the "small guild but hardcore min-max elitist" minority, but even as a heavy min-maxer, my limited play time means limited uber-loot. Am I good player? Pretty sure the answer is yes. Am I able to bring the same value to the table as a good player who's *also* in a raid-heavy guild dedicated to getting the best high-end loot? Absolutely not.

Out of all small-guild players, what percentage are hardcore min maxers and raid loot grinders? I've got to imagine very few, right?

What's going to be better for my game play experience: if I only end up in Raid LFM's where I'm bringing the play level of the party *up*, or when sometimes I realize I'm bringing the play level of the party *down* because I'm raid-loot-poor? Maybe I don't want to run with the folks who feel the need to set a elitist benchmark for riad inclusion in the first place, and the leader who posts, "GL 50+ only" is doing me a favor?

[GhoulsTouch]

Small Guilds aren't in trouble, they are going to be everywhere now...I mean wasn't that the plan?
I haven't seen such an upstart in the forums like I have seen today...this is unreal.

[samthedagger]

I don't think small guilds are in trouble. I have a feeling that with the constant influx of new players I am seeing and the guild rewards system, new guilds will continue to spring up all the time. Imagine the stars in the eyes of a new player when he sees that a guild charter can be purchased for the "low" price of 150 TPs. He starts to dream about his airship and what he will add to it. This driving passion will keep him in his guild and keep him trying to get members because he doesn't want those precious 150 TPs to go to waste by disbanding. While many of them will get disillusioned, plenty of people get disillusioned with plenty of MMOs on a regular basis for plenty of different reasons. I think the guild system is going to inspire a lot of folks to get involved in group play and be fanatically loyal to their guilds (whether its deserved or not).

The main downside I see to this is guild poaching. But any player who would let themselves be poached really doesn't belong in my guild anyway and I'm happy to see such a player go.

[IronClan]

Constant influx.... but that's worse than small guilds withering away from this don't you think? If I lose 5 players every other week but don't go "extinct" by virtue of recuiting 5 players in the same span what have I got?

A small close nit guild of like minded players creating a sense of community and comradery?

Or a "starter kit" guild that exists as a stair step to larger guilds.

Wont be surprised to see large guilds get so big that they form "junior" guilds that serve this exact same purpose, funneling newer players away from legit small guilds (this has happened in other MMO's)