Is there a place in the game for a Melee DPS Charisma based Paladin?

[Arlathen]

DISCLAIMER:
The following discussion is for advanced players only, who have levelled multiple alts and know the game. Before I go any further, for new players or players looking to build there first Paladin character your in the wrong thread (although it might be interesting reading to you none-the-less).

/flameproof suit on, and wearing a smile

Is there a place in the game for a Melee DPS Charisma based Paladin?

Ok, don't get me wrong, I'll be the first person to shout that Strength is the single most important attribute for a Paladin - a class that is expected to contribute melee DPS and therefore needs as much strength as is possible for a Paladin in order to acheieve as much bonus To Hit and To Damage.

However, I've detected a slight 'aberration' in some weapon designs, and its making me re-think. I'll talk about the weapons later after I state the case for Charisma.

Attributes

A pure class built Paladin can by default achieve a higher Charisma than a Strength based one. Its a gimme, as the Class Attribute enhancement for Paladins is Charisma, and thus an additional +3 Charisma can be stacked on top of this. The Human character can also stack up an additional +1 to this value, while Drow will have a base Charisma 2 points higher than any other build generally.

Typical 'Max' Charisma Human Paladin:
Charisma: 16 Base +5 Levels +3 Class +1 Human +2 Tome +3 Exceptional +6 Item = 36

And if maxed out:
Charisma: 16 Base +5 Levels +3 Class +1 Human +3 Tome +3 Exceptional +7 Item = 38
Suffering a negative level for Litany of the Dead and a +4 Tome will let you hit 40 Charisma.

Typical 'Max' Strength Paladin:
Strength: 16 Base +5 Levels +1 Human +2 Tome +2 Exceptional +6 Item = 32

And if maxed out:
Strength: 16 Base +5 Levels +1 Human +3 Tome +3 Exceptional +6 Item = 34
Suffering a negative level for Litany of the Dead and a +4 Tome will let you hit 36 Strength.

Sources:
+1 Exceptional - Tower of Despair Ring (Lorinthors/KOTC), Dragontouched Tempest Rune
+2 Exceptional - Tower of Despair Ring
+7 Item - Epic Item (Further Discussion below)

Strength Benefits

To Hit and damage. 99% of the game is focused around combat, and you want to kill it with your Sword/Axe/Insert Weapon. To do that, you need to be able to hit with as much damage as possible, and that what Strength gives you.

Charisma Benefits

Lets talk about Divine Might. Now its easy if going max strength to get Base Charisma 18 for Divine Might 3 - Base 16 witha +2 tome will do the job nicely, and I see this on a lot of Multiclass 18/2 Builds. But for the Pure Paladin who wants Divine Might 4, were talking base minimum 20 Charisma and thus either a +3 tome and a level up point into charisma or a +4 Tome.

Is Divine Might 4 worth it? This is dependant on the player. Its expensive in enhancement points, but its also equivalent to having an additional +4 Strength per tier for damage purposes. To me thats worth it. The Charisma Paladin easily achieves a base 20 charisma for these purposes.

Turn Undead attempts - more charisma also equals more turn attempts, which in turn means more Divine Might usage. At Charisma 36, you have 16 minutes of Divine Might usage.
Increased Lay on Hands. With the formula being (10 + Paladin level) x Charisma modifier, the Cha 36 Pure Paladin will trigger a LoH for 390pts of healing. Thats before any modifiers of any kind. Add in Paladin Devotion enhancement or the target has some kind of Healing amplification (lots of Solar Pheonix Builds out there atm) and thats a 1 button = full hit points kind of heal.

Improved chance of landing Smite Evil / Exalted Smite: There is an additional bonus based on charisma for landing smite evil at Charisma Bonus x2, so +26 to hit with Cha 36. While in normal/hard/elite a Paladin has NO difficulty in landing blows, this is useful in Epic to ensure that you land your Smites.

Saving Throws: Further improved Saving throws. Another potential +2 or more to all saving throws is simply exceptional.



Weapons

The whole point of this post is building a Charisma based Paladin versus a Strength one. The reason to do this is two-fold: The weapons Elyd Edge and the Dynastic Falcatta.

Normal Elyd Edge: http://ddowiki.com/page/Elyd_Edge
Normal Dynastic Falcatta: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Weapon:Dynastic_Falcata

Epic Elyd Edge: http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Elyd_Edge
Epic Dynastic Falcatta: http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Weapon:Epic_Dynastic_Falcata

Epic Dynastic falcatta is the Post Update-5 versions.

So here we have two wepaons, both of which allow you to add your charisma Mod as an Attack bonus instead of Strength, and the Epic Dynastic Falcatta will also allow you to use Charisma as your damage modifier instead of the Strength.

Although the Elyd Edge is more a Bard weapon on the face due to the Anthem rule, the DR/Silver element, the Devotion addition and the high crit range (think crit Smites!) of a Rapier all make it useful pre level 12. If your on Elite difficulty in a quest and need to hit more regularly than dual Khopesh, then pull out the twin Edge's to get to work with!

Critically, both weapons can also be used to bypass most of the nasty DR in the game - The Epic Falcatta can be combined with an Augment to Bypass DR/Silver and DR/Adamantine, and your Paladin Capstone adds the DR/Good element. Same for the Elyd Edge, it naturally has the DR/Silver element and your Capstone adds DR/Good to that as well.

The Epic Dynastic Falcatta is particularly apsiration worthy. Even ignoring theTrue law and Axiomatic Burst (pretty useless against Lawful Evil devils and undead, tbh), its a base 2D8 weapon, equivalent to a Greensteel Bstard Sword or Dwarf Axe, has +6 enhancement and still retains the Khopeshs x3 crit multiplier with 19-20 threat range.

Both items also allow you to get a +7 Charisma Item bonus. Wooo ;)



Levelling up and not Piking your way to level 20

I decided to write this part as an 'addendum', as most experienced players will have ways of trooping there way upto lvl 20 without too much trouble. This type of build might suffer a little but is still a Pure class Paladin with all the benefits that brings:

Full BAB
Self Healing
Decent Low-Mid level Armour class
Ton of hitpoints
Great Saves.

Before you hit 20, a typical human pure Paladin will take Khopesh as a proficieny feat at either level 1 or 3, so TWF with Khopeshes is still decent DPS output, even if your strength is 4/6 points lower than the max Str Paladin. When you hit 14, you have access to Holy Sword to give yourself a pair of +5 Silver/Cold Iron Holy Burst Khopeshes for Shroud Farming (think of the goodies you can make without having to farm for a pair of Mineral 2 weapons!).

And don't forget, any such Charisma build is going to have to run KOTC 3 and have the Capstone. There's an awful lot more DPS.

Defensively, no Evasion can easily be made up for with a Good reflex save for Half and a having a Resist 30 spell on. At top level, your AC isn't going to be great, but you'll have a ton of hitpoints being Pure Paladin and a human Paladin can get decent Con to go with that. Against Raid bosses, AC is pretty meaningless anyway.

Am I going to play this?
I'm going to give it a shot. I picked up a pair of Dynastic Falcatta's off the House D Broker for 60K Gold each, and Elyd Edges can be farmed and put in the Shared Bank, so I can equip this guy pretty easily.
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Okay, start up your flame guns now, I'm ready! :D As the Human torch says, FLAME ON!

/Keeps flameproof suit on and grabs a bowl of popcorn ready

[Angelus_dead]

A pure class built Paladin can by default achieve a higher Charisma than a Strength based one.
Incorrect. There are more sources of external buffs for Strength than Charisma:
+2 Rage spell
+6 Titan Grip
+2 Madstone (although Paladins often can't use it)


Although the Elyd Edge is more a Bard weapon on the face due to the Anthem rule, the DR/Silver element, the Devotion addition and the high crit range (think crit Smites!) of a Rapier all make it useful pre level 12.
Whoo, a +1 rapier. Yay (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243571).


If your on Elite difficulty in a quest and need to hit more regularly than dual Khopesh, then pull out the twin Edge's to get to work with!
With only a +1 enhancement bonus, is it really going to hit better?


The Epic Dynastic Falcatta is particularly apsiration worthy.
Why would you aspire to doing less damage than a level 12 greensteel?


your strength is 4/6 points lower than the max Str Paladin
So you're saying this hypothetical build would have strength 4-6 below charisma. Therefore the strength bonus to damage will be just 2-3 less than the charisma bonus.

Look at the weapons that add charisma to damage versus those that use the regular strength. Do the strength weapons have extra damage effects that would count for more than +2 or +3? I think they do!

[cm2_supernova]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_splGEXDSNes/SINvD2v2BGI/AAAAAAAAAG0/zoPyrju9K7I/S730/Unique.jpg

[Arlathen]

Incorrect. There are more sources of external buffs for Strength than Charisma:
+2 Rage spell
+6 Titan Grip
+2 Madstone (although Paladins often can't use it)

Oh come off it.
Rage spell - Woo, +1 to hit/damage. Game Breaker!
Titans Grip - The only 'maybe' in my opinion. 3 clickies for what, 1 minute? I suppose its useful against a Raid boss where you want to contribute DPS lag.
Madstone - Never in a million years. Have you counted the amount of short term buffs a Paladin has to maintain, recently?


Whoo, a +1 rapier. Yay (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243571).
End Game sir. The Epic version is ok, if not stellar. You definitly want dual epic Dynastics instead tbh. It is an easy way to get SupDev on your person for healing.


With only a +1 enhancement bonus, is it really going to hit better?
Entirely depends on build at any given level, although its not a weapon really meant for above level 8 anyway. All content is so easy below lvl 8 anyways, your not gonna miss with a club of the flame never mind a +1 rapier.


Why would you aspire to doing less damage than a level 12 greensteel?
1) You mean the Mineral 2s that outperform Holy Sword by about 0.5% ?
2) You mean the Mineral 2s that take 24 large ingredients each to farm out?

Without going indepth with numbers, Epic Dynastic vs. Mineral 2, but the basic differences would be the following, assuming no immunities/resistances:
7 Holy
3.5 Acid
11 Acid on Crit
2.5 Bleed vs. Living
= 24

or

3.5 Lawful
7 Lawful
14 Lawful on Crit
= 24.5

Dynastics will also be +1/+1 up for the +6 enhancement and +0/+2 up for Divine Might 4.


So you're saying this hypothetical build would have strength 4-6 below charisma. Therefore the strength bonus to damage will be just 2-3 less than the charisma bonus.

Look at the weapons that add charisma to damage versus those that use the regular strength. Do the strength weapons have extra damage effects that would count for more than +2 or +3? I think they do!

I never made any such case of a Strength build being only +2 or +3 behind. With your stated 'limited' buffs and against the right enemies, a Strength build would probably be ahead of the Charisma build, but certainly not by a massive degree.

As I stated however, Charisma offers alot of benefits other than just the +hit/damage of Strength. The intention of the post was to make you think if its possible to do and is it playable. I guess you missed that.

In fact, my post was worded as such to highlight possibilities. Christ knows I put a Big Disclaimer at the top of the post and Not a slogan that outright said "Charisma build is teh uber".

Anyways, FLAME ON PEOPLE :D

[Arlathen]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_splGEXDSNes/SINvD2v2BGI/AAAAAAAAAG0/zoPyrju9K7I/S730/Unique.jpg

Lol! I love this! +1 Rep :D

[voodoogroves]

The problem I have is that while they both may fire off of Charisma - that's all they've got really.

I could see someone running up to 20 on a normal pally then LR-ing into a CHA build to dual wield Falcatas for fun once they became epicified. Might be amusing.

However (and lets ignore greensteel) you're still going to want to carry 8 sets of other weapons for the times when you want to debuff, stat-damage, paralyze, vorp, smite, whatever. For those times, you'll want STR high anyway. Maybe a greensteel or two in the mix, then we really want STR anyway. That tells me you'll want STR close to CHA and if the gap is close, it probably isn't worth it to use the CHA items unless your epic falcata has some fancy stuff in the augment slot.

For sheer amusement factor I'd consider carrying a pair around if I had a capped pally for when I'm enfeebled ...

"Screw you monster! I'm going to hit you with my chutzpah!"

[Megaton_Samurai]

I personally think Divine Might IV is worth the investment (not even hard if you are drow), at which point your charisma is plenty high for all the benefits you listed.

Honestly a max CHA build with a pair of epic Dynastic Falcatas would be quite good against anything that had no DR against it but there is quite a lot in the game that slashing/good/lawful damage doesn't work and you'd simply be a gimp. Adding silver for boss devils would work but you'd be using weapons that are worse than your holy sword.


Basically you are trading every other weapon in the game for epic Dynastic Falcatas and +3 turns, umd and saves (you will not miss a smite on a 2 either way)

[K_0tiC]

He didnt say minII anywhere you could have triple pos/lightning both have very nice outputs and dont forget keen on minII means no need for ic slashing. Also how many epic items do you currently own/how many times have you completed epic desert quests? Your looking at what 2months+ farming those epics to even possibly get lucky and get one of those fals completed. The build would work but still be behind in dps and require alot of farming, more of a flavour build then the next best dps thing.

Dont let that stop you from making it/farming them etc its your game play it how you like it.

[Arlathen]

Come on, someone must have room in there Heart for the Big-Cuddly-Mr-Nice-Guy-Sweet-As-Sugar-Charisma-38 Paladin (that dual wields Khopeshes :eek:)?

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Seriously, no one?

[LawstCawz]

1) You mean the Mineral 2s that outperform Holy Sword by about 0.5% ?
2) You mean the Mineral 2s that take 24 large ingredients each to farm out?

Without going indepth with numbers, Epic Dynastic vs. Mineral 2, but the basic differences would be the following, assuming no immunities/resistances:
7 Holy
3.5 Acid
11 Acid on Crit
2.5 Bleed vs. Living
= 24

or

3.5 Lawful
7 Lawful
14 Lawful on Crit
= 24.5

Dynastics will also be +1/+1 up for the +6 enhancement and +0/+2 up for Divine Might 4.

Now try epic chaosblades or lit2's. Your selected weapons will not bypass the DR of tougher mobs.



I never made any such case of a Strength build being only +2 or +3 behind. With your stated 'limited' buffs and against the right enemies, a Strength build would probably be ahead of the Charisma build, but certainly not by a massive degree.

As I stated however, Charisma offers alot of benefits other than just the +hit/damage of Strength. The intention of the post was to make you think if its possible to do and is it playable. I guess you missed that.

In fact, my post was worded as such to highlight possibilities. Christ knows I put a Big Disclaimer at the top of the post and Not a slogan that outright said "Charisma build is teh uber".

Anyways, FLAME ON PEOPLE :D

The benefits of increased cha are pretty weak for what it costs you to get there. Having a low cha hurts, but dumping start stats, level ups, and enhs on a class without so many good ones... not worth it.

[k1ngp1n]

Oh come off it.
Rage spell - Woo, +1 to hit/damage. Game Breaker!

Which is fundamentally the advantage gained by your +3 cha (possibly +2 if it evens an odd)

Titans Grip - The only 'maybe' in my opinion. 3 clickies for what, 1 minute? I suppose its useful against a Raid boss where you want to contribute DPS lag.

DPS lag or not (which it won't) its still a to-hit, damage mod bonus.

Madstone - Never in a million years. Have you counted the amount of short term buffs a Paladin has to maintain, recently?

Yes, and with extend spell on your many buffs madstone is still superior.


To-hit bonuses can be achieved higher with STR than with CHA on a pally. Centering the build around CHA for a single weapon will reduce your flexibility and overall DPS output (STR is still used for the DMG mod.)

This build would have highly inferior DPS, in exchange for LoH and Saves, which pallys really don't need any more of anyway. I'm sure it might be fun to play for a while, but you'll get into few groups.

Paper-synergy does not imply in-game-synergy.

[K_0tiC]

Now try epic chaosblades or lit2's. Your selected weapons will not bypass the DR of tougher mobs.



The benefits of increased cha are pretty weak for what it costs you to get there. Having a low cha hurts, but dumping start stats, level ups, and enhs on a class without so many good ones... not worth it.


Actually there adding red slot which means toss silver on them + pally capstone = broken dr

[Arlathen]

The problem I have is that while they both may fire off of Charisma - that's all they've got really.

I could see someone running up to 20 on a normal pally then LR-ing into a CHA build to dual wield Falcatas for fun once they became epicified. Might be amusing.

You could farm Xoriat Cipher for Chaos Guardes/Planar Girds and make millions....


However (and lets ignore greensteel) you're still going to want to carry 8 sets of other weapons for the times when you want to debuff, stat-damage, paralyze, vorp, smite, whatever. For those times, you'll want STR high anyway. Maybe a greensteel or two in the mix, then we really want STR anyway. That tells me you'll want STR close to CHA and if the gap is close, it probably isn't worth it to use the CHA items unless your epic falcata has some fancy stuff in the augment slot.

Nahh. Stat-Damage/Vorpals/Debuff ect ect ect is all over-rated tbh. Maybe I've been raiding too long, but 1-15 seems so easy a pair of +5 Peshes would do the job half the time.


For sheer amusement factor I'd consider carrying a pair around if I had a capped pally for when I'm enfeebled ...

"Screw you monster! I'm going to hit you with my chutzpah!"

Trust me, show Arratreikos the size of your Charisma 38 Empowered man weapon and he'll be one thats Enfeebled.

/FLAME ON!

[Arlathen]

I personally think Divine Might IV is worth the investment (not even hard if you are drow), at which point your charisma is plenty high for all the benefits you listed.

The more Charisma you add the more benefits you get....
... just not in DPS. Apart from more Divine Might usage.


Honestly a max CHA build with a pair of epic Dynastic Falcatas would be quite good against anything that had no DR against it but there is quite a lot in the game that slashing/good/lawful damage doesn't work and you'd simply be a gimp. Adding silver for boss devils would work but you'd be using weapons that are worse than your holy sword.

Basically you are trading every other weapon in the game for epic Dynastic Falcatas and +3 turns, umd and saves (you will not miss a smite on a 2 either way)

Its Slashing/Adamantine/Silver/Good with the Capstone/Augment. So, err, a pair of Holy Sword'ed Warhammers for Sorjek and your set to go?

[LawstCawz]

Actually there adding red slot which means toss silver on them + pally capstone = broken dr

Too bad the abbot and DQ need killin too, eh?

[Megaton_Samurai]

Honestly you would do just fine in 90% of all content. Just realize you will be good with exactly ONE weapon in the entire game.

I'm all for it. I'll take a little bit of gimp if it comes with fun.

[Zion_Halcyon]

I don't know about Maxing Charisma, but for me, I am actually planning a different approach with the Dyanstic Khopeshes.

Yes, the Lawful part doesn't help against devils. BUT. Upgrade those to Epic, drop Silver in there as the Red Crystal component, and at level 20 take the Pali Capstone, and now the weapons become good aligned and are silver, and can bypass devils, plus the 1d6 Holy and 2d6 light damage bonuses. If you are a Hunter of the Dead Pali, then you can add Ghost Touch to the mix, meaning you can pretty much kick the ass of anything that comes your way with just 2 blades.

Maybe not AS quick as someone weapon-switching Min/maxer - but I would imagine you could get it done pretty quick.

[Arlathen]

He didnt say minII anywhere you could have triple pos/lightning both have very nice outputs and dont forget keen on minII means no need for ic slashing. Also how many epic items do you currently own/how many times have you completed epic desert quests? Your looking at what 2months+ farming those epics to even possibly get lucky and get one of those fals completed. The build would work but still be behind in dps and require alot of farming, more of a flavour build then the next best dps thing..

1) Triple Pos/Lightning2 isn't beating Devil DR, the main source of problematic DR in the game right now.
2) Atleast I can farm 4/5 different quests for Epic Ings in Desert, and not just the same Raid over and over.


Dont let that stop you from making it/farming them etc its your game play it how you like it.

I know and I will :D Gotta admit fun idea though, no?

[Zion_Halcyon]

Honestly you would do just fine in 90% of all content. Just realize you will be good with exactly ONE weapon in the entire game.

I'm all for it. I'll take a little bit of gimp if it comes with fun.

You and me both. Plus only using 1 weap isn't necessarily a bad thing if you are **** good with it. Unless you like the weapon switching as a fun aspect.

I chalk it up to a "To each his own" thing.

[K_0tiC]

Too bad the abbot and DQ need killin too, eh?

Dont know about you but id rather get out a pair of holy burst pg heavy maces/morning stars or triple pos for the abbot and you still have holysword for edq. Not a major dps loss against the queen.

And its been proven plenty of times that lightning out dps minII on normal (which 99% of shrouds are run on)

The epics youll be running mostly will be oob wizking and edq, farming dq1 for seals works decent but there is alotttt of loot in the desert which means alot of seals till you get 1 or 2 of them, not knocking your idea just being realistic. Farming for a dropped from quest item like oob for spectral seal/shard id say like 30+ runs youll pull both?
Now toss in all the named loot from quest items seals then all the stuff from outdoor desert and you have a big load of items making a very small % chance.

[Arlathen]

Too bad the abbot and DQ need killin too, eh?

Thats why Holy Sword is your versatility option :D

[Arlathen]

The benefits of increased cha are pretty weak for what it costs you to get there. Having a low cha hurts, but dumping start stats, level ups, and enhs on a class without so many good ones... not worth it.

But I was thinking the following:

Human
Str: 14
Dex: 15
Con: 15
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 16

Not dump stating anything there that you wouldn't normally on a 'Max DPS' Paladin.......

Surely you can see the light ?

ooh, forgot my little thread slogan I last couple of replies...

/FLAME ON!

[k1ngp1n]

Thats why Holy Sword is your versatility option :D

Which you'll do horribly with.


1) Triple Pos/Lightning2 isn't beating Devil DR, the main source of problematic DR in the game right now.

Lit2 does superior dps vs all trash devils and demons than min2, and does superior dps than min2s on normal against pit fiends. Triple pos provides superior dps vs non-breakable dr such as portals.

This is the problem with this build. It cannot pull out different weapons to compensate for different situations. As such you'll be inferior dps in almost every situation.

The tradeoff isn't worth it in pure numerical terms. If you want flavor, sure. But there is absolutely no build superiority here.

[K_0tiC]

But I was thinking the following:

Human
Str: 14
Dex: 15
Con: 15
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 16

Not dump stating anything there that you wouldn't normally on a 'Max DPS' Paladin.......

Surely you can see the light ?

ooh, forgot my little thread slogan I last couple of replies...

/FLAME ON!

Do it on a 2nd time TR will fit the stats much better get your epic fals and your basic gs goodies.

[weewoo0]

well what about this? instead of a pure 20 paladin why not a 16sorc/2monk/2paladin? you get up to lvl 8 spells (polar ray fw cone of cold fireshield reconstruct etc etc) and then evasion and your charisma bonus to saves. this wielding dual dynastic falcattas..... sounds like a darn good trash beater ;) .
in raids this guy's job would be to polar ray/run up n whack the boss.

btw if you want to build something ridiculous ;) why not go all out

starting stats: (would have to be a 2nd TR) warforged =D
12 str (+1 tome for power attack)
14 dex (+1 tome for TWF then a +3 at lvl 9 for Itwf and Gtwf)
18 con (+2 tome at lvl 7)
8 int (+2 at lvl 7)
6 wis
16 cha (+2 tome at lvl 7 and a +4 tome whenever you get it) +5 levelups +3 enhancements +2 tome 26 before items 36 w/ ToD rings and these falcattas. 38 w/ +4 tome.

spells:
lvl 1 - expeditious retreat, jump, nightshield, grease =D
lvl 2 - blur, invisibility, knock, resist energy
lvl 3 - displacement, haste, rage (req'd for lvling and questing w/ melees), fireball
lvl 4 - fire wall, fire shield, dimension door, stoneskin
lvl 5 - protection from elements, hold monster, cone of cold, break enchantment
lvl 6 - reconstruct, greater heroism, globe of invulnerability (while levelling this is disentigrate but at lvl 16 flip it out)
lvl 7 - greater teleport, finger of death, otto's sphere of dancing (you will not have the greatest DCs but you can try)
lvl 8 - irresistable dance

flip out any spells and suggestions are appreciated.

oh ya. i posted this because while i know paladins look at this weapon and go AWESOME =D. you have to realize that it turns you into more of a 1 trick pony :/ your str/to-hit won't be high enough for a holy sword much less a holy sword warhammer. now you can still make it work but you will be a demon killer because unless i'm very wrong lawful weapons vs demons.... aren't nice ;)
if you look at my build n neg req me thats fine ;) if you plus rep me its all good too. however please don't tell me its in the wrong place :/ it does pertain to the post if for nothing else than because it uses these weapons.

edit: fixed some stat mistakes :/

[Angelus_dead]

Have you counted the amount of short term buffs a Paladin has to maintain, recently?
Why else would I have covered it in my post?


End Game sir.
You explicitly said you were refering to character level 12 and under.


1) You mean the Mineral 2s that outperform Holy Sword by about 0.5% ?
Obviously I'm not talking about Mineral 2 items. Paladins do not typically get mineral2 weapons. Like I said already, I was talking about high damage weapons.


I never made any such case of a Strength build being only +2 or +3 behind.
So why did you type it in?

[Arlathen]

Which you'll do horribly with.

Hmm. So err, having access to a +5 Holy Burst Cold Iron/Silver Weapon of your choice
means 'you'll do horribly'?..... I think you need a more 'transparent' fact for this statement :p

[Junts]

Hmm. So err, having access to a +5 Holy Burst Cold Iron/Silver Weapon of your choice
means 'you'll do horribly'?..... I think you need a more 'transparent' fact for this statement :p

I need to update my paladin guide to explain this, but the weapon standards for metallic and non-metallic drs are very different. Many high-damage weapon types don't do full damage to those kinds of monsters, and consequently mineral2/holy sword weapons are the best for them. However, DDO right now is focused more on monsters wtihout them in epic desert and vault of night, and consequently those weapons are a bit behind their non-metallic brethren. Further, in the hands of level 20 paladins, some epic weapons can be made silver and gain the good trait from the capstone, which makes them substantially better. However, holy sword remains an incredibly cheap and effective endgame alternative, but it's no longer a free best set of weapons in the game the way it was 8-24 months ago.

Equipped well, a charisma-based (that is to say, up to 20 natural base, no higher) paladin is an outstanding damage dealer, though it has some weaknesses in that present endgame content isn't as evil-outsider heavy as it used to be. Paladins will always swing around a bit as the racial makeup of endgame monsters changes, and right now its relatively in a lower place. It will surely rise again in the future, especially when certain modules with lots of evil outsider or undead monsters become epic.

[LeLoric]

Why would you put silver on your falcata's?

If you are running epic content the two raid bosses currently are both chaotic whish is where the falcata will shine. Add cold iron and if your cha within 8 points fewer than your strength youve got the best weapon against Lailat in the game. Falcata will be on par with lightning strikes against the dragon. These will also be top notch weapons for reavers and renders and tharashk hounds, mobs that are found frequently in our current epic content.

Farming DQ with these lovely weapons and soon enough youll have a pair of epic chaosblades put the silver on those for upcoming epic devil bosses. As for farming epics then making them usable for lev 16-20 normal raids but gimping them for epic content? I just dont see it.