Noobs are still clueless!

[Disavowed]

Still can't look at the LFM's wothout at least 1/3 of them looking for DPS but leaving ranger off the list.

Very annoying.

(there posted in the correct place this time)

[bubbazen]

Yeah! What he said.

~ Tempzilla

[xanvar]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[grodon9999]

Got the same issue on Ghallanda. Level 9 Ranger 6/Fighter 3 with almost 200 HP, Mithril Full plate, dwarf holding two axes and people think I'm an archer.

Sigh . . .

[Captain_Wizbang]

/signed

btw bud;;;;;


http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/animated/2.jpg?t=1277405638

[stainer]

leaving ranger off the list.


You don't think that this is because of certain shroud piking pew pew ranger, do you?

*Disclaimer - Not all pew pew rangers are bad. Some of them realize they get the TWF feats free and take advantage of them.

[KoboldKiller]

Umm, are you referring to NEWBS because "noobs are still clueless" is a redundant statement.

[Slink]

You don't think that this is because of certain shroud piking pew pew ranger, do you?

You wouldnt happen to be referencing

http://i761.photobucket.com/albums/xx260/33harts/ScreenShot00136.jpg

would you?

[Spineflayer]

Couldn't agree more Beerman. On another note you can add rogues to that as well. I have 3 rogues and 2 rangers and even the squishiest of them tops 400 hps unbuffed and everyone of them runs at the top of the kill list in pretty much every quest they do. (not that kill counts matter :rolleyes:) what people? 9d6+12 extra sneak attack dmg isn't dps? Anyway......Have fun all. See ya in game.

spineflayer
aka
Mtarl
Durgish
Durgash
Kentrick
Skeptic
Kindrel
Ultren

Yeah slink I saw that lfm and a couple others similar and laughed.....all I can say is shroud part 1 normal....3 deaths =p

[Disavowed]

Umm, are you referring to NEWBS because "noobs are still clueless" is a redundant statement.

You got me there it is redundent but I was referring to noobs and not newbs.

[Disavowed]

Couldn't agree more Beerman. On another note you can add rogues to that as well. I have 3 rogues and 2 rangers and even the squishiest of them tops 400 hps unbuffed and everyone of them runs at the top of the kill list in pretty much every quest they do. (not that kill counts matter :rolleyes:) what people? 9d6+12 extra sneak attack dmg isn't dps? Anyway......Have fun all. See ya in game.

spineflayer
aka
Mtarl
Durgish
Durgash
Kentrick
Skeptic
Kindrel
Ultren

Totally agree. I'm having the same issues with my rogue. I guess a tard is a tard is a tard. I wonder if these tards even look at a kill count. I doubt it if they did maybe they wouldn't be so stupid when it comes to DPS. Again, as you said. Not that kill count matters but at the end if said non dps player has kept up with the barbs and fighters you might want to rethink what DPS is. But I doubt they even look and if they do they put it to rest as it was a fluke.

So we have to deal with 10 con fighters and barbs who are "dps" but they are dead due to no hp.

Here's a clue noobs. Dead tanks can't dish out DPS regardless if the symbol by their name says fighter or barb. They have to be alive to dish out damage. I'll take a pally,ranger, or rogue w/ hp any day over a 10 con no heavy fort barb/ftr.

[Renvar]

I understand your frustration on this.

BUT, it's a pug. It's not a guild run. In a pug, you are getting so many players running these classes without the knowledge, gear, or build necessary to make it a contributing team member. They show up and have low hp, little or no fort, the wrong gear, and no idea how to play the toon. And it ruins it for the competent, geared, experienced players. It's a shame, but in a recent survey the folllowing was found to be true:

In a pug, you have the following probabilities:

Rogue:
Chance it has less than 200 hp at 20th level - 75%
Chance it has light fortification or less at 20th level - 50%
Chance they took mechanic line, have 26 INT for traps, 22 CHA for UMD and a 10 base strength, 8 base con - 35%
Chance they know how to play a dps rogue properly - 10%

Ranger:
Chance they went sniper or AA AND have no clue how to do anything but kite annoyingly and die - 60%
Chance they have less than 300 HP at 20th level - 80%
Change they are a certain piking, worthless ranger that shall remain niamoless - Even a 1% chance is too much. Never accept anonymous level 20 rangers. Ever.

Monk:
Chance they have a clue how to play a monk properly - 5%
Chance they have decent handwraps or gear - 5%

These classes can definitely do serious DPS, but if you are building a raid pug and the applier is not known or from a known guild, I can understand why some leaders are wary. Once bitten twice shy as the saying goes...

BUT, if it's not a raid, then no reason to restrict anything. Take whatever melee applies. How many non-raid quests do you really need top tier dps for anyways? IF they turn out to be a tool, it's probably not going to ruin the run.

Edit: But, don't forget to never take anonymous level 20 rangers. That rule still applies...You will thank yourself.

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Hey! Is that a Snake Plissken quote there, Xan????


oh, and /signed!
I'll take a ranger in my groups anyday, though I will always keep my fingers crossed that they know when to pull out the melees or that they don't kite things all over the map while screaming for hjeals... :D

[LordPiglet]

People like that are the people you don't want to group with anyways.

They're running the fighter, who can't pull a single boss off my tempest III in part 2. This is after I've been shield blocking for a minute letting them try to take aggro off me, so we can split them. 6 "dps" toons (fighters/barbs) and I've got the aggro from 3 of Harry's Lt's.

[shablala]

I understand your frustration on this.

BUT, it's a pug. It's not a guild run. In a pug, you are getting so many players running these classes without the knowledge, gear, or build necessary to make it a contributing team member. They show up and have low hp, little or no fort, the wrong gear, and no idea how to play the toon. And it ruins it for the competent, geared, experienced players. It's a shame, but in a recent survey the folllowing was found to be true:

In a pug, you have the following probabilities:

Rogue:
Chance it has less than 200 hp at 20th level - 75%
Chance it has light fortification or less at 20th level - 50%
Chance they took mechanic line, have 26 INT for traps, 22 CHA for UMD and a 10 base strength, 8 base con - 35%
Chance they know how to play a dps rogue properly - 10%

Ranger:
Chance they went sniper or AA AND have no clue how to do anything but kite annoyingly and die - 60%
Chance they have less than 300 HP at 20th level - 80%
Change they are a certain piking, worthless ranger that shall remain niamoless - Even a 1% chance is too much. Never accept anonymous level 20 rangers. Ever.

Monk:
Chance they have a clue how to play a monk properly - 5%
Chance they have decent handwraps or gear - 5%

These classes can definitely do serious DPS, but if you are building a raid pug and the applier is not known or from a known guild, I can understand why some leaders are wary. Once bitten twice shy as the saying goes...

BUT, if it's not a raid, then no reason to restrict anything. Take whatever melee applies. How many non-raid quests do you really need top tier dps for anyways? IF they turn out to be a tool, it's probably not going to ruin the run.

Edit: But, don't forget to never take anonymous level 20 rangers. That rule still applies...You will thank yourself.

behold the most inflated and exaggerated statistics. lol

[Renvar]

People like that are the people you don't want to group with anyways.

They're running the fighter, who can't pull a single boss off my tempest III in part 2. This is after I've been shield blocking for a minute letting them try to take aggro off me, so we can split them. 6 "dps" toons (fighters/barbs) and I've got the aggro from 3 of Harry's Lt's.


Yes, but are you the exception or the rule?

If you had to bet your paycheck on who does more dps: Pugger X (Fighter 20 or Barb 20) vs. Pugger Y (Ranger 20)
without seeing the guild name, toon, myddo, or any other information, which to you take?

Sure there are Tempest III's that will drink your fighter/barb's milkshake, but that has not been my regular experience with pug rangers.

[Renvar]

behold the most inflated and exaggerated statistics. lol

Of course. The stats are tounge in cheek. The point is that the ranger class can be a tempest melee or a ranged archer. The rogue can go melee dps or mechanic/support.

I know how experienced players run these builds but my point is that many puggers don't play them that way and thus, they are excluded from consideration.

[Grimdiegn]

I understand your frustration on this.

BUT, it's a pug. It's not a guild run. In a pug, you are getting so many players running these classes without the knowledge, gear, or build necessary to make it a contributing team member. They show up and have low hp, little or no fort, the wrong gear, and no idea how to play the toon. And it ruins it for the competent, geared, experienced players. It's a shame, but in a recent survey the folllowing was found to be true:

In a pug, you have the following probabilities:

Rogue:
Chance it has less than 200 hp at 20th level - 75%
Chance it has light fortification or less at 20th level - 50%
Chance they took mechanic line, have 26 INT for traps, 22 CHA for UMD and a 10 base strength, 8 base con - 35%
Chance they know how to play a dps rogue properly - 10%

Ranger:
Chance they went sniper or AA AND have no clue how to do anything but kite annoyingly and die - 60%
Chance they have less than 300 HP at 20th level - 80%
Change they are a certain piking, worthless ranger that shall remain niamoless - Even a 1% chance is too much. Never accept anonymous level 20 rangers. Ever.

Monk:
Chance they have a clue how to play a monk properly - 5%
Chance they have decent handwraps or gear - 5%

These classes can definitely do serious DPS, but if you are building a raid pug and the applier is not known or from a known guild, I can understand why some leaders are wary. Once bitten twice shy as the saying goes...

BUT, if it's not a raid, then no reason to restrict anything. Take whatever melee applies. How many non-raid quests do you really need top tier dps for anyways? IF they turn out to be a tool, it's probably not going to ruin the run.

Edit: But, don't forget to never take anonymous level 20 rangers. That rule still applies...You will thank yourself.

Lets pull %s out of our a$$, weeeeeee! 95% of all stats are 50% true. :D

[Doganpc]

Thought i'd add something...
As i've been pugging Korthos - Marketplace lately I can say the stereotypes are back in full force. All the Rangers have been kiter's, the Barbarians THF Axe wielders, Cleric healbots, and Rogues always in sneak mode. Entertaining on a level, yet frustrating.

Dogan
"Put the bow away so we can help!"

[Disavowed]

I understand your frustration on this.

BUT, it's a pug. It's not a guild run. In a pug, you are getting so many players running these classes without the knowledge, gear, or build necessary to make it a contributing team member. They show up and have low hp, little or no fort, the wrong gear, and no idea how to play the toon. And it ruins it for the competent, geared, experienced players. It's a shame, but in a recent survey the folllowing was found to be true:

In a pug, you have the following probabilities:

Rogue:
Chance it has less than 200 hp at 20th level - 75%
Chance it has light fortification or less at 20th level - 50%
Chance they took mechanic line, have 26 INT for traps, 22 CHA for UMD and a 10 base strength, 8 base con - 35%
Chance they know how to play a dps rogue properly - 10%

Ranger:
Chance they went sniper or AA AND have no clue how to do anything but kite annoyingly and die - 60%
Chance they have less than 300 HP at 20th level - 80%
Change they are a certain piking, worthless ranger that shall remain niamoless - Even a 1% chance is too much. Never accept anonymous level 20 rangers. Ever.

Monk:
Chance they have a clue how to play a monk properly - 5%
Chance they have decent handwraps or gear - 5%

These classes can definitely do serious DPS, but if you are building a raid pug and the applier is not known or from a known guild, I can understand why some leaders are wary. Once bitten twice shy as the saying goes...

BUT, if it's not a raid, then no reason to restrict anything. Take whatever melee applies. How many non-raid quests do you really need top tier dps for anyways? IF they turn out to be a tool, it's probably not going to ruin the run.

Edit: But, don't forget to never take anonymous level 20 rangers. That rule still applies...You will thank yourself.

All of the same things can be said about poorly built barbs and fighters. No con item, 10 con to start, no heavy fort, wrong feats, wrong armor, etc. I could go on all day about how many screwed up "tanks" there are out there as well. As you said it's a pug. That doesn't mean you can't get screwed up fighters and barbs any more than monks, rogues, and rangers. Again a tard is a tard is a tard no matter what class. It just ignored more if he's a barb or ftr, and the noobs are too stupid to know anything about how to build a toon.

My buddy is new to the game and asked what lfms he should join. I told him avoid anything omitting any melee classes for dps. Avoid anything where they must have a healer or any other class for that matter, or lfms saying no noobs as they are usualy newbs same for experienced only. I told him to look for lfms that take anyone and especially the ones that say be self sufficient. These LFMs demanding dps be only in the form of ftr/barb have wipe/noob written all over them.

[stainer]

All of the same things can be said about poorly built barbs and fighters. No con item, 10 con to start, no heavy fort, wrong feats, wrong armor, etc. I could go on all day about how many screwed up "tanks" there are out there as well. As you said it's a pug. That doesn't mean you can't get screwed up fighters and barbs any more than monks, rogues, and rangers. Again a tard is a tard is a tard no matter what class. It just ignored more if he's a barb or ftr, and the noobs are too stupid to know anything about how to build a toon.

My buddy is new to the game and asked what lfms he should join. I told him avoid anything omitting any melee classes for dps. Avoid anything where they must have a healer or any other class for that matter, or lfms saying no noobs as they are usualy newbs same for experienced only. I told him to look for lfms that take anyone and especially the ones that say be self sufficient. These LFMs demanding dps be only in the form of ftr/barb have wipe/noob written all over them.

I stole this for my thread.

[Yagi]

I wont even join groups with ignorant lfm's like that. It bugs me too, people come to this game that has extreme freedom in character creation and then try to pigeonhole everybody.

I dont nesecarily look at an icon and presume ANYTHING about the character. A Rogue icon? yeah maybe its some 150 hp trap monkey that thinks that all they can do is disarm a few boxes. Maybe its a self-healing ac/evasion tank with insane dps that can also take down any trap with ease, I dont know until I see them in action.

People need to understand that all characters are not created equal in ddo, and get over whatever stupid preconceptions they have.

[Frodo_Lives]

I will never join a LFM that is rude or calls people out it doesn't matter what level range or quest. People who think LFMs like that accomplish anything other than turn people off are people I would generally like to aviod.

There are a ton of newer players that don't have a clue about what classes can do and how some people can build effective characters. There are also a ton of vets who don't remember what it is like to be new to the game either.

It has made PuGing much more of a gamble these days, but at least some of the quests are interesting again!

[Fomori]

I have been seeing this recently while playing on monk. Since its my first toon on Khyber, and I havnt tried to trade money from Ghallandra, I'm running with mostly chest drop/end reward items.

While its been easy to solo normal and hard near my level, getting elite done on some quests can be a pain due to the increased HP and number of mobs. However I've been getting a lot of no responses when clicking on some LFM's. After a minute I assume they are ignoring me so I jump into a quest to solo. About 3 minutes later 'bing' - 'You are declined because group is full'.

While I dont let it get to me it's kind of annoying to happen so often. My usual solace is that these groups are most likely ones that I would not want to participate in anyways. The other possibility is that I've upset some Kyberian with a sandy ******... come to think of it thats probably more likely.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Yeah, Id think twice about accepting a gimped Tempest build.
Especially with Lightning Strike & Holy GS weapons! :eek:

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/lsc.jpg?t=1277416820


I'm just wondering how many of you just tried to hover the mouse over the tool-tips!!!

PS, this is the weaker of the 2 Tempest builds, the other is in the TR grind somewhere

[Disavowed]

that we can't get Shroud done unless we're level 18-20 as well.

[Captain_Wizbang]

that we can't get Shroud done unless we're level 18-20 as well.


Oh BOY! Quick! popcorn!

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/animated/th_1sm213sharepopcorn.gif?t=1277418683
(http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/animated/?action=view&current=1sm213sharepopcorn.gif)
In before the ....

[Emili]

that we can't get Shroud done unless we're level 18-20 as well.
What do you mean? 2/3rds of all my shroud completes were run with levels 13-16 in the group... oh wait, guess that was prior Mod 9. ;)

[shablala]

Of course. The stats are tounge in cheek. The point is that the ranger class can be a tempest melee or a ranged archer. The rogue can go melee dps or mechanic/support.

I know how experienced players run these builds but my point is that many puggers don't play them that way and thus, they are excluded from consideration.

I am not doubting your experience. But mine is quite the opposite. My ranger is tempest III, most rangers I come across are tempest. And instead of playing a guessing game or randomly excluding people, you only have to ask them one question: are you tempest or AA? OR if you are sensitive to their feelings and dont want to get yourself in AA viable debate while you are trying to fill a raid, just ask them to link their boss beater. If they link a bow, then you got your answer :P

[Merlocke]

In a pug, you have the following probabilities:

Rogue:
Chance it has less than 200 hp at 20th level - 75%
Chance it has light fortification or less at 20th level - 50%
Chance they took mechanic line, have 26 INT for traps, 22 CHA for UMD and a 10 base strength, 8 base con - 35%
Chance they know how to play a dps rogue properly - 10%

Ranger:
Chance they went sniper or AA AND have no clue how to do anything but kite annoyingly and die - 60%
Chance they have less than 300 HP at 20th level - 80%
Change they are a certain piking, worthless ranger that shall remain niamoless - Even a 1% chance is too much. Never accept anonymous level 20 rangers. Ever.

Monk:
Chance they have a clue how to play a monk properly - 5%
Chance they have decent handwraps or gear - 5%

These classes can definitely do serious DPS, but if you are building a raid pug and the applier is not known or from a known guild, I can understand why some leaders are wary. Once bitten twice shy as the saying goes...


Edit: But, don't forget to never take anonymous level 20 rangers. That rule still applies...You will thank yourself.

/QFT

This pretty much sums up what Ive seen on Argo. When pugging Ill always prefer to pick up a non squishy melee than take these chances.

[Bobthesponge]

that we can't get Shroud done unless we're level 18-20 as well.

don't be stupid. shrouds can't be done unless you are 18-20 and everyone has greensteel. noob. also, you must have 3 healers. and no monks. and only 1 caster. and no monks. noob. all other groups are FAILs. and no monks, too.

[krud]

After seeing a lot of pew pew pew rangers on my recent lowbie, it's no surprise they don't always get invites.

I often get the cold shoulder whenever I apply on my 5rgr/3ftr/1mnk (going 12ftr/6rgr/2mnk). I've come to expect it. To any new player who hasn't sifted thru the forums, my build probably looks like a hodgepodge with no clear direction. Not much different than a 5wiz/3ftr/1clr in their eyes.

[Disavowed]

don't be stupid. shrouds can't be done unless you are 18-20 and everyone has greensteel. noob. also, you must have 3 healers. and no monks. and only 1 caster. and no monks. noob. all other groups are FAILs. and no monks, too.

You're right what was I thinking.

+1 to you and I got to put in my 1st -1 on someone above. That was pretty cool.

[Disavowed]

/QFT

This pretty much sums up what Ive seen on Argo. When pugging Ill always prefer to pick up a non squishy melee than take these chances.

explain a non squishy melee because the last time I checked a 10 con, no fort, no con item, ftr/barb was way squishier than my 530 hp str based rgr who can self buff into a str of 50+?

[Disavowed]

What do you mean? 2/3rds of all my shroud completes were run with levels 13-16 in the group... oh wait, guess that was prior Mod 9. ;)



Don't make me long for the good old days.

[Lehrman]

Yeah, Id think twice about accepting a gimped Tempest build.
Especially with Lightning Strike & Holy GS weapons! :eek:

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/lsc.jpg?t=1277416820


I'm just wondering how many of you just tried to hover the mouse over the tool-tips!!!

PS, this is the weaker of the 2 Tempest builds, the other is in the TR grind somewhere

Stoopid tool tips!

[Merlocke]

explain a non squishy melee because the last time I checked a 10 con, no fort, no con item, ftr/barb was way squishier than my 530 hp str based rgr who can self buff into a str of 50+?


a 10 con, no fort, no con item, ftr/barb = a squishy melee.
530 hp str based rgr who can self buff into a str of 50+= a non squishy melee.

[Disavowed]

a 10 con, no fort, no con item, ftr/barb = a squishy melee.
530 hp str based rgr who can self buff into a str of 50+= a non squishy melee.

Maybe I'm reading your reply to DDO talk wrong but I think the QFT statement tells me I'm not. The way I read your statement is you're going to avoid the rogue, monk, ranger classes because of the resons he cited and stick with the go to barb ftr.

[Merlocke]

BUT, it's a pug. It's not a guild run. In a pug, you are getting so many players running these classes without the knowledge, gear, or build necessary to make it a contributing team member. These classes can definitely do serious DPS, but if you are building a raid pug and the applier is not known or from a known guild


I agree w this part as well.

[Boldrin]

What do you mean? 2/3rds of all my shroud completes were run with levels 13-16 in the group... oh wait, guess that was prior Mod 9. ;)



What I've noticed is Shroud was easier to complete BEFORE the cap was 20.back when it was 16.. Now it's like pulling teeth just to get people to listen or use common sense.. Stupid lvl 20 noobishness!

[Sweyn]

/QFT

This pretty much sums up what Ive seen on Argo. When pugging Ill always prefer to pick up a non squishy melee than take these chances.

635 HP
70+ AC
50 Strength

Is that squishy?

[PopeJual]

Thought i'd add something...
As i've been pugging Korthos - Marketplace lately I can say the stereotypes are back in full force. All the Rangers have been kiter's, the Barbarians THF Axe wielders, Cleric healbots, and Rogues always in sneak mode. Entertaining on a level, yet frustrating.

Dogan
"Put the bow away so we can help!"

As part of the consequences for my altoholism, I've noticed something else, as well.

Rogues with bows.

They have crazy high Dex, because that's what Rogues are supposed to have and they have low Str and Con, so they have concluded (correctly) that they are better off using a bow instead of a melee weapon.

It's a shame that they don't understand that building their character differently in the first place would mean that they weren't nearly as squishy and could last more than 3 seconds in melee combat and they could then actually contribute to the party's success during combat.

[Terelle]

Yes, but are you the exception or the rule?

If you had to bet your paycheck on who does more dps: Pugger X (Fighter 20 or Barb 20) vs. Pugger Y (Ranger 20)
without seeing the guild name, toon, myddo, or any other information, which to you take?

Sure there are Tempest III's that will drink your fighter/barb's milkshake, but that has not been my regular experience with pug rangers.

Good thing is, we don't have to deal with this situation.
Anon -> decline
Guild name -> accept depending on guild
Myddo -> accept based on build/gear or based on account/other characters if you recognise them.

Most groups I just run with whatever, grouping with bad players is a good way to build up your DNG list. In most quests/raids you can drag 3-6 pileons through anyway, barring blatant stupidity - and fortunately there is no correlation between dps and stupidity anyway :)

[Disavowed]

What I've noticed is Shroud was easier to complete BEFORE the cap was 20.back when it was 16.. Now it's like pulling teeth just to get people to listen or use common sense.. Stupid lvl 20 noobishness!

QFT

Still no plus 1 for you. Need to spread more it says.

[shablala]

Good thing is, we don't have to deal with this situation.
Anon -> decline
Guild name -> accept depending on guild
Myddo -> accept based on build/gear or based on account/other characters if you recognise them.

Most groups I just run with whatever, grouping with bad players is a good way to build up your DNG list. In most quests/raids you can drag 3-6 pileons through anyway, barring blatant stupidity - and fortunately there is no correlation between dps and stupidity anyway :)

If that is not the typical elitest jerk attitude, I dont know what is :) NO disrespect :P

[MeliCat]

that we can't get Shroud done unless we're level 18-20 as well.


isn't that more likely 'cos they're lfming at level 20 and it's just spawned that way? i usually had no problems sending a polite tell "heya. lvl 16 fighter but i have harry beaters and a bloodstone - can i come?". when i was ignored i suspect it was more likely they had 20 or so tells and lfms coming their way and they just chose whoever. idc.


my baby monk is lvl 6 - but i'm having real problems playing her :( i *hope* i'm not one of the 95% of monk players who can't play their monk correctly by lvl 20 but it's not looking good... my handwraps are ok... the only bad part of the build is the person playing her... :( she's so NOT awesom. :(

[Merlocke]

635 HP
70+ AC
50 Strength

Is that squishy?

nope.

[PopeJual]

If that is not the typical elitest jerk attitude, I dont know what is :) NO disrespect :P

no disrespect, but [disrespectful comment]

...there are a lot of good players on DDO. There are a lot of poor players with poor characters and poor gear. Going through quests with those players and characters is more difficult than going with an empty slot.

I'm happy to play with those folks when I'm doing a quest that I find easy and I'll even give/help farm gear for those characters if they're interested.


But I don't want throw away an hour on a failed quest or a failed raid because one or two players sucked up all of the party's available resources.

[Boldrin]

Ran a ToD tonight on my cleric... Mostly veteran players I figured No problemo... Final fight.... HALF THE PARTY GETS BANISHED!!! lol Just glad I didn't waste any pots on them. So veterans can be noobs too.

[Merlocke]

Good thing is, we don't have to deal with this situation.
Anon -> decline
Guild name -> accept depending on guild
Myddo -> accept based on build/gear or based on account/other characters if you recognise them.


MyDDO definatley helps with the guesswork for questionable puggers.
I think eventually they will make it so you will be able to look at a characters stats/build/gear just by examining the toon in the focus orb.

[shablala]

no disrespect, but [disrespectful comment]

...there are a lot of good players on DDO. There are a lot of poor players with poor characters and poor gear. Going through quests with those players and characters is more difficult than going with an empty slot.

I'm happy to play with those folks when I'm doing a quest that I find easy and I'll even give/help farm gear for those characters if they're interested.


But I don't want throw away an hour on a failed quest or a failed raid because one or two players sucked up all of the party's available resources.

Having successfully done raids with 4 or 5 people down (either through disconnects or what not), I cant imagine one or two less than avg player would ruin the raid. I am not saying you should LOOK for sub par people and add them to the raid. But just declining people because you know nothing about them is completely different.

And by the way, weather the raid was a success or not, that hour was thrown away. It is a game, there is very little productivity done playing an MMO.

[MeliCat]

no disrespect, but [disrespectful comment]

...there are a lot of good players on DDO. There are a lot of poor players with poor characters and poor gear. Going through quests with those players and characters is more difficult than going with an empty slot.

I'm happy to play with those folks when I'm doing a quest that I find easy and I'll even give/help farm gear for those characters if they're interested.


But I don't want throw away an hour on a failed quest or a failed raid because one or two players sucked up all of the party's available resources.


I suspect that resource wastage is more a result of poor leadership sometimes than characters without leet raid gear or brilliant twitch skills.

I know I don't have the best gear and have **** twitch. But if given clear instructions I can keep myself out of harms way and contribute where needed.

It's where a TOD hasn't specified clearly what is to happen to trash mobs or how the heals/reconstructs will be handed out that fail and this is poor leadership rather than those players.

I may be an ungeared under-par player but after some TOD raids I swear I am going to lead one just so it can be done the way I think works :)

And also people *do* learn and *do* get better. I think you should give them a bit more of a chance.

[MeliCat]

And by the way, weather the raid was a success or not, that hour was thrown away. It is a game, there is very little productivity done playing an MMO.


Exactly! If you're not having fun, what's the point?


/says she who stresses out ALL the time. LOL

[Alexander_Illusioni]

Ran a ToD tonight on my cleric... Mostly veteran players I figured No problemo... Final fight.... HALF THE PARTY GETS BANISHED!!! lol Just glad I didn't waste any pots on them. So veterans can be noobs too.

Not only that, but it bugs me to no end, to see Vets without 100% fortification. I can understand it in newer players, but players that have been around 1+years? I see this way too often. Drives me absolutely crazy. :rolleyes:

[Vissarion]

This reminds me of a run I joined for Mired in Kobolds the other day on my Dwarven 10 Ranger/2 Monk. The party was all underlevel (11s and 12s), but since it was normal, I figured it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

The final guy who joined was a "tank" on a 12 Fighter who was bragging endlessly about his tanking skills and how good his character was. This was after I told the group leader that I could probably tank the dragon if need be (self-buffed AC to 47). Out of curiosity, I decided to MyDDO the "tank" and found out he had 20 hit points less than me (and I'm wearing the Bloodrage Symbiont), was still wearing vet status gear (Moss Weave Cloak, one of the early level "bauble" trinkets, etc) and had 0% fortification. Amused, I decided to check the other party members, and I was the only one with any fortification (heavy fort, of course, with the Nightforge Gorget. Still acquiring taps for Minos) and the hit point level of the other characters was...underwhelming.

So I'm a pretty easy-going guy and decided to go along with it. Figured if necessary I could brute force the quest and solo-tank the baby dragon. The "tank" tried to intimidate it when we finally got there after a couple hilariously fast deaths, but I pulled aggro each time within about .1 seconds, which was good for the tank since he was always on death's doorstep. The party then wanted to take a crack at Sinvala, so I told the healer to keep me up and I'd do the best I could, but when we engaged her he kept healing the "tank" while he and the other casters foolishly stayed within range of the breath weapon, dying rather rapidly. I did some damage, but there's really only so much a level 12 Ranger can do against Sinvala, effectively solo.

The funniest part was when the "tank" would occasionally express disbelief as to why a Ranger would get into the thick of things and melee. :P

*headdesk*

[k0ukla]

Yeah, Id think twice about accepting a gimped Tempest build.
Especially with Lightning Strike & Holy GS weapons! :eek:

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/lsc.jpg?t=1277416820


I'm just wondering how many of you just tried to hover the mouse over the tool-tips!!!

PS, this is the weaker of the 2 Tempest builds, the other is in the TR grind somewhere

:| i dyed my hair blonde for a reason...u know in my head i KNEW i couldnt do it but still my mouse did it anyway :|

[MeliCat]

This reminds me of a run I joined for Mired in Kobolds the other day on my Dwarven 10 Ranger/2 Monk. The party was all underlevel (11s and 12s), but since it was normal, I figured it wouldn't be that big of a deal.


<snip>

The funniest part was when the "tank" would occasionally express disbelief as to why a Ranger would get into the thick of things and melee. :P

*headdesk*

wot? he didn't get a clue when you *weren't* trying to kite the dragon? :) :-D

[Renvar]

Maybe I'm reading your reply to DDO talk wrong but I think the QFT statement tells me I'm not. The way I read your statement is you're going to avoid the rogue, monk, ranger classes because of the resons he cited and stick with the go to barb ftr.

i think you did misunderstand me. I was trying to explain why I can understand how folks get a negative view of those classes. While I agree that there are bad fighter and barb builds, they have generally one focus melee dps. Even a fighter stalwart defender can do dps. But the ranger and rogue have paths that can lead to terrible dps and the classes have no toughness enhancments and limited hit dice, which can more easily lead to craptastic HP. There is more margin for error.

All that said, I would never exclude those classes. As I mentioned, I understand what they can do. I enjoy well built rogues, Tempest rangers, and ladies. :)

On non-raids I usually take the first 5 to hit the LFM. If you get in my group and are an hp/dps/gear/fortification challenged rogue or ranger and seem open to advice, then I will try to coach you on your build. If you are a solid player and build, then I will enjoy running with you.

So, I don't make those exclusions, but when I am looking to join LFM's and I see those exclusions I don't get too upset because I understand why. I just move on and form my own and let them have their fun run. :)

Sorry if my message got lost in goofing around with bogus stats. I was trying to make it fun.

[Vissarion]

wot? he didn't get a clue when you *weren't* trying to kite the dragon? :) :-D

Nope, but then again, pretty sure the last thing this guy was capable of was getting a clue. :P

[Nysrock]

Not only that, but it bugs me to no end, to see Vets without 100% fortification. I can understand it in newer players, but players that have been around 1+years? I see this way too often. Drives me absolutely crazy. :rolleyes:

Speaking just for myself, there are times when I am lazy and log off with my haggle item on instead of my heavy fort. Or sometimes I just wear a snazzy hat instead of Minos. So MyDDO isn't ALL knowing. :cool:

[MeliCat]

Speaking just for myself, there are times when I am lazy and log off with my haggle item on instead of my heavy fort. Or sometimes I just wear a snazzy hat instead of Minos. So MyDDO isn't ALL knowing. :cool:

See this is the difference between a good player and a bad player.

You *log off* with your haggle hat on.

I *play* with my haggle hat on.



Oops.


Forgot.


Again.

[Sogrin]

yeah gotta love those peeps.

**THREAD JACK**

i'm really only just getting into the game. highest level char is my current lvl 17 rogue, Shortling. Saw most of you mentioning aroond 300-400 HP unbuffed on a rogue at lvl 20. Currently, I have 266 with the following.

14 base Con
Minos legion
+6 con belt
Toughness (once)
Racial toughness (2)

so the next 3 levels i should just make, or be just shy, of 300hp.

WHat else can i do to increase my unbuffed HP? i know i can get +45hp from a GS item, so i'll need to fit that in somewhere (once i get my twigs/horns for my blank rapiers). then there is greater false life for another +30. I spose that takes me to approx 350-370. +2 con tome will pop that to 370-390. looks like i just answered my own question. lol

granted i'm at 9d6+18 SA, swap weapons for non SA mobs, 46 DD unbuffed so thats all fine afaik

[Disavowed]

isn't that more likely 'cos they're lfming at level 20 and it's just spawned that way? i usually had no problems sending a polite tell "heya. lvl 16 fighter but i have harry beaters and a bloodstone - can i come?". when i was ignored i suspect it was more likely they had 20 or so tells and lfms coming their way and they just chose whoever. idc.


my baby monk is lvl 6 - but i'm having real problems playing her :( i *hope* i'm not one of the 95% of monk players who can't play their monk correctly by lvl 20 but it's not looking good... my handwraps are ok... the only bad part of the build is the person playing her... :( she's so NOT awesom. :(

But if you're level 20 and open up Shroud I don't think it automatically goes to 18-20. I think you have to change it to that. If so they are making a concious effort to do so.

[Disavowed]

yeah gotta love those peeps.

**THREAD JACK**

i'm really only just getting into the game. highest level char is my current lvl 17 rogue, Shortling. Saw most of you mentioning aroond 300-400 HP unbuffed on a rogue at lvl 20. Currently, I have 266 with the following.

14 base Con
Minos legion
+6 con belt
Toughness (once)
Racial toughness (2)

so the next 3 levels i should just make, or be just shy, of 300hp.

WHat else can i do to increase my unbuffed HP? i know i can get +45hp from a GS item, so i'll need to fit that in somewhere (once i get my twigs/horns for my blank rapiers). then there is greater false life for another +30. I spose that takes me to approx 350-370. +2 con tome will pop that to 370-390. looks like i just answered my own question. lol

granted i'm at 9d6+18 SA, swap weapons for non SA mobs, 46 DD unbuffed so thats all fine afaik

Add 10 more hp for argo favor part 2. That and what you listed above will crack 400 hp which is acceptable.

[Sogrin]

Add 10 more hp for argo favor part 2. That and what you listed above will crack 400 hp which is acceptable.

woo. grind inc >.<

LFG crucible elite :D

[MeliCat]

nvm.

read phail.

[Folonius]

that we can't get Shroud done unless we're level 18-20 as well.

I put my shroud runs up for lvl 18-20 quite often, I don't like to fail. It doesn't mean that I won't accept them into the group. If someone lvl 17 or lower clicks on the group to join, I'll My DDO them. If I get a tell from someone asking if they can join, I may let the person in regardless of what eq they have, and I will bring my guildies along no matter what their level is baring any level limitations.

The person with the star is running the group, they can put it together however they want. If you don't have the star and you don't like how they are running the group, you can leave it. Of course, gossip gets around on Khyber, so you may want to double check your actions before doing something that could possibly get 11 other people mad at you. That goes for group leaders et al.

[shablala]

Exactly! If you're not having fun, what's the point?


/says she who stresses out ALL the time. LOL

To define FUN as running a successful raid is like saying the only entertaining movies are those that cost 100million to produce.

I remember having a ton of fun on many "failed" quests and raids. I am not going to lie and say every one of them was. But you really never know. But more so, I've been on MANY smooth running raids where I was bored out of my mind and just couldnt wait for the raid to be over.

[Disavowed]

i think you did misunderstand me. I was trying to explain why I can understand how folks get a negative view of those classes. While I agree that there are bad fighter and barb builds, they have generally one focus melee dps. Even a fighter stalwart defender can do dps. But the ranger and rogue have paths that can lead to terrible dps and the classes have no toughness enhancments and limited hit dice, which can more easily lead to craptastic HP. There is more margin for error.

All that said, I would never exclude those classes. As I mentioned, I understand what they can do. I enjoy well built rogues, Tempest rangers, and ladies. :)

On non-raids I usually take the first 5 to hit the LFM. If you get in my group and are an hp/dps/gear/fortification challenged rogue or ranger and seem open to advice, then I will try to coach you on your build. If you are a solid player and build, then I will enjoy running with you.

So, I don't make those exclusions, but when I am looking to join LFM's and I see those exclusions I don't get too upset because I understand why. I just move on and form my own and let them have their fun run. :)

Sorry if my message got lost in goofing around with bogus stats. I was trying to make it fun.

Again a stalwart defender can't do dps if he's dead. Such as the one in feast today who had no fort item on at all. He got 1 shotteded in feast on norm again on NORM (he also got critted by an orcs arrow for 30% of his life just before we entered. 30% BY a FREAKING ARROW). While my level 12 ranger w/ 323 hp and a minos helm ended the quest with 83 kills the next 2 closest were the 2 casters, neither of them broke 30 kills. One of the other 2 melles didn't even hit double digits (another rgr & a barb go figure you can suck no matter what class). There is no way to slice it barb/ftr with all the feats and paths still suck in the hands of a noob. Yet the noobs keep f ing up the game with their tard lfm & dps expectations.

Again a tard is a tartd is a tard regardless if he's a rgr, barb, or ftr. These guys don't have one focus as you state (DPS). They see some feat they think would be cool that is irrelevent to dps and that becomes their one focus not dps or hp. Meanwhile the tards give them a free pass because the symol by their name says ftr/barb.

[wolflordnexus]

But if you're level 20 and open up Shroud I don't think it automatically goes to 18-20. I think you have to change it to that. If so they are making a concious effort to do so.

at 20 all lfms posted will be 18-20 unless you change them best to just send a tell.

[Disavowed]

at 20 all lfms posted will be 18-20 unless you change them best to just send a tell.

Wasn't sure and was too lazy to log on & check.

[wolflordnexus]

Again a stalwart defender can't do dps if he's dead. Such as the one in feast today who had no fort item on at all. He got 1 shotteded in feast on norm again on NORM (he also got critted by an orcs arrow for 30% of his life just before we entered. 30% BY a FREAKING ARROW). While my level 12 ranger w/ 323 hp and a minos helm ended the quest with 83 kills the next 2 closest were the 2 casters, neither of them broke 30 kills. One of the other 2 melles didn't even hit double digits (another rgr & a barb go figure you can suck no matter what class). There is no way to slice it barb/ftr with all the feats and paths still suck in the hands of a noob. Yet the noobs keep f ing up the game with their tard lfm & dps expectations.

Again a tard is a tartd is a tard regardless if he's a rgr, barb, or ftr. These guys don't have one focus as you state (DPS). They see some feat they think would be cool that is irrelevent to dps and that becomes their one focus not dps or hp. Meanwhile the tards give them a free pass because the symol by their name says ftr/barb.

We all agree people are Tards thing is in my experience and apparently in many others experience more tards appear with a bow icon or a little ninja beside their name. Does that mean I don't accept them in my runs no honestly most of this game it's easy enough to carry a party of gimps through a quest. Honestly its fun to watch the 83 hp level 20 wizzy (I'm really not making this up here) grab agro and die repeatedly.

[Sogrin]

We all agree people are Tards thing is in my experience and apparently in many others experience more tards appear with a bow icon or a little ninja beside their name. Does that mean I don't accept them in my runs no honestly most of this game it's easy enough to carry a party of gimps through a quest. Honestly its fun to watch the 83 hp level 20 wizzy (I'm really not making this up here) grab agro and die repeatedly.

it's people like these that give me a worse name then I give myself >.<

[hecate355]

I understand your frustration on this.

BUT, it's a pug. It's not a guild run. In a pug, you are getting so many players running these classes without the knowledge, gear, or build necessary to make it a contributing team member. They show up and have low hp, little or no fort, the wrong gear, and no idea how to play the toon. And it ruins it for the competent, geared, experienced players. It's a shame, but in a recent survey the folllowing was found to be true:

In a pug, you have the following probabilities:

Rogue:
Chance it has less than 200 hp at 20th level - 75%
Chance it has light fortification or less at 20th level - 50%
Chance they took mechanic line, have 26 INT for traps, 22 CHA for UMD and a 10 base strength, 8 base con - 35%
Chance they know how to play a dps rogue properly - 10%

Ranger:
Chance they went sniper or AA AND have no clue how to do anything but kite annoyingly and die - 60%
Chance they have less than 300 HP at 20th level - 80%
Change they are a certain piking, worthless ranger that shall remain niamoless - Even a 1% chance is too much. Never accept anonymous level 20 rangers. Ever.

Monk:
Chance they have a clue how to play a monk properly - 5%
Chance they have decent handwraps or gear - 5%

These classes can definitely do serious DPS, but if you are building a raid pug and the applier is not known or from a known guild, I can understand why some leaders are wary. Once bitten twice shy as the saying goes...

BUT, if it's not a raid, then no reason to restrict anything. Take whatever melee applies. How many non-raid quests do you really need top tier dps for anyways? IF they turn out to be a tool, it's probably not going to ruin the run.

Edit: But, don't forget to never take anonymous level 20 rangers. That rule still applies...You will thank yourself.

lol thats some wicked number crunching, may i ask where did you obtain the statistics, please dont say you worked those out by assuming, or by how it feels, its very slippery way

i highly doubt 75% of rogues at 20 have less than 200

[hecate355]

woo. grind inc >.<

LFG crucible elite :D

150 argo favor can hardly be called grind, if thats grind, then you probably have no business to upper levels anyway :)

[wolflordnexus]

it's people like these that give me a worse name then I give myself >.<

If it makes you feel any better I totally understand the groans from healers when my WF Barbarian joins as well :P

[pSINNa]

I've seen ranger excluded from lfm's by many people at different times, and ladies and gentlemen, saying it's only the 'n00bs' or 'newbies' is just kidding yourselves.

Several of the more well known guilds (whose name we all know, but i shall not quote, you all know who you are) routinely exclude classes from their lfm's (epics, tod's, speedruns, hell, anything they feel like), including rangers, rogues and monks on a regular basis.

Just watch the lfm's, and i guarantee you'll see it (the exception of course, being anyone they know personally or fellow guild members, or course! chortle, chortle!)

Stop the new player bashing, it's repetitive and inacurate, the idiots are old, new, young, old, male and female, they have always been here, and always will be.

Incidentally, the 'TR only' groups are even funnier, god knows how many completely clueless TR's have made it into raids continuously suprising me with the level of ignorance that can be displayed by someone that has levelled to 20, twice!

If someone is as experienced, well geared, and well built as you all seem to be by your forums posts, i have trouble understanding why you would need to pug out your quests at all? Unless you actually don't mind finding the odd silver lining in those grey cloud quests and raids, (something i've noticed when i'm feeling a little adventurous, and jump on that 'maybe' lfm just in case, there's always a suprisingly good player in there somewhere :)

So to summarise the gist of this too lengthy post for you all, blaming everything that ever happens in the game that you don't happen to like (on the day of course, no real consistency is expected or displayed that can be observed) on the 'newbies', 'noobs', 'freetards', or whatever derogatory term you have managed to dredge up to describe anyone that hasn't played the game as long as you have is getting old, is not true, and is only providing a more damning reflection on the OP's then anything else at this point.

Enjoy your undoubtatly witty rejoiners and reputation games that will surely follow from this post.

Coit out~

Ghallanda : Coitfluff, Coitfu, Coittimeh, Coitburner, Coithealz, Coitzinga, Coitrippr, Luciforge Son of Coit : Revelationz

[Sogrin]

So to summarise the gist of this too lengthy post for you all, blaming everything that ever happens in the game that you don't happen to like (on the day of course, no real consistency is expected or displayed that can be observed) on the 'newbies', 'noobs', 'freetards', or whatever derogatory term you have managed to dredge up to describe anyone that hasn't played the game as long as you have is getting old, is not true, and is only providing a more damning reflection on the OP's then anything else at this point.

Enjoy your undoubtatly witty rejoiners and reputation games that will surely follow from this post.

Coit out~

Ghallanda : Coitfluff, Coitfu, Coittimeh, Coitburner, Coithealz, Coitzinga, Coitrippr, Luciforge Son of Coit : Revelationz

just so you know, "newbie" is not a derogatory term, it just refers to a new player. noobs and freetards are, however

[Emili]

What I've noticed is Shroud was easier to complete BEFORE the cap was 20.back when it was 16.. Now it's like pulling teeth just to get people to listen or use common sense.. Stupid lvl 20 noobishness!

Here is what is sad... we were running hard and elite shrouds more commonly in pugs back at level cap 16.

Now days... I cannot trust in a pug of level 20 with names I've not seen before to pull weight thru a normal run. Bloody annoys me, I can go in shroud with one group and it rips thru it like it be water works - Harry dead in part 4 and the blades but half in... turn around put together another group and they screw around killing over the nameds in part 2 for the third bloody time, jump around on a puzzle while a wall is closing in without speaking up and suck up enough healing mana in two rounds akin to Disavowed on a binge on Easter had he given up beer for lent.

One of the worst issues now be also everyone be TR'ng left and right. Was a time you saw a TR and could very well know you had someone been 'round the block... These days the newbies rush to level 20, not even geared nor experienced, turn 'round and bloody TR and run it to 20 yet again. They have little knowledge of the game, have no real experience in playing the class they just were and then TR'd to some other class cap it and TR it again without learning the trade of any class. My advice to these people... play the class a while tweak it out, go start a new class on a different slot if is what you're looking for... but a TR is not going to magically be some significant upgrade, experience playing is.

[Sogrin]

it's ok emili, you can trust me :D

[Disavowed]

woo. grind inc >.<

LFG crucible elite :D

All that is is doing every GH quest on elite. That's pretty much the notm anyway for the XP. Not too many people are going to pass on Madstone & Cruci on elite even after the nerf.

[Disavowed]

We all agree people are Tards thing is in my experience and apparently in many others experience more tards appear with a bow icon or a little ninja beside their name. Does that mean I don't accept them in my runs no honestly most of this game it's easy enough to carry a party of gimps through a quest. Honestly its fun to watch the 83 hp level 20 wizzy (I'm really not making this up here) grab agro and die repeatedly.

I've seen just as many tards with a barb/ftr symbol as w/ a monk or rgr symbol. It's just not as obvious until you look at the death & kill counts or they open their mouths. Keep in mind I'm not in any guilds and thus if I'm not soloing or duoing w/ The Beergirl or a friend, I'm pugging. So I get the privelage of seeing many tards.

[jarlaxle_dourden]

Got the same issue on Ghallanda. Level 9 Ranger 6/Fighter 3 with almost 200 HP, Mithril Full plate, dwarf holding two axes and people think I'm an archer.

Sigh . . .

Wait ... you are level 9 and have ~almost~ 200 HP ... :S I wonder why people don't consider you a tank.

You asked for that one :)

[LordPiglet]

What do you mean? 2/3rds of all my shroud completes were run with levels 13-16 in the group... oh wait, guess that was prior Mod 9. ;)



a lot of us newbs understand that the vets have the experience and were running shrouds at 13-16 back in the day. They also had better gear/equipment then a lot of the newbs have now at 16. I've been in a shroud with a lvl 14 newb, they went down like Paris hilton in a windstorm, and apparently "it's not my first time". That may not have been entirely their fault, as we ended up wiping due to poor play from several people and horrible lag. But they definitely had issues.

[Renvar]

Again a stalwart defender can't do dps if he's dead. Such as the one in feast today who had no fort item on at all. He got 1 shotteded in feast on norm again on NORM (he also got critted by an orcs arrow for 30% of his life just before we entered. 30% BY a FREAKING ARROW). While my level 12 ranger w/ 323 hp and a minos helm ended the quest with 83 kills the next 2 closest were the 2 casters, neither of them broke 30 kills. One of the other 2 melles didn't even hit double digits (another rgr & a barb go figure you can suck no matter what class). There is no way to slice it barb/ftr with all the feats and paths still suck in the hands of a noob. Yet the noobs keep f ing up the game with their tard lfm & dps expectations.

Again a tard is a tartd is a tard regardless if he's a rgr, barb, or ftr. These guys don't have one focus as you state (DPS). They see some feat they think would be cool that is irrelevent to dps and that becomes their one focus not dps or hp. Meanwhile the tards give them a free pass because the symol by their name says ftr/barb.

A couple comments:

1) You are not the typical pugger. Comparing a toon you have built and geared to a random pugger in Gianthold going to look pretty bad for the pugger. I don't care what class/race/build they are.

2) A player of your caliber is not normally what a leader gets when a pug ranger X applies to his/her LFM. If that was the case, then the LFM would probably only list rangers for melee dps.

3) I agree with you. There is no reason to exclude any melee classes when looking for DPS. That people do it is born of ignorance and laziness. Any class can be gimped and an inexperienced player could screw up even something as easy as a barb or fighter. You really aren't protecting yourself from gimps, although that is the goal.


I was just playing devil's advocate and presenting the reasons why people shy away from certain classes. These players are generally less confident in their own ability to cover for one or more party members who are not "up to snuff". It is their own lack of confidence and previous (relatively limited) experiences with poor players in that class that cause them to do this.

As they get more experience they will run into experienced, veteran players running rogues and rangers and see what these classes can do. Then they will not be so quick to exclude them from the LFM. Also, they will gain more confidence in themselves and will be more willing to take on any joiners with less restrictions.

[Renvar]

Wait ... you are level 9 and have ~almost~ 200 HP ... :S I wonder why people don't consider you a tank.

You asked for that one :)


Um... Level 9 =

20 heroic
48 ranger levels
30 fighter levels
54 con bonus (16 base + 2 tome + 4 item = 22 Con)
20 IFL Item
12 Toughness
10 Fighter Toughness
=
194

Maybe add another 20 or 30 for racials depending on race.

Whats wrong with ~200 hp at 9th level? Where else are you getting much more HP than that with a Tempest/Kensai build? Besides multiple toughness feats, which will probably come with the monk levels or fighter levels that have not been taken yet?

Seems OK to me. This build will end up with HP in the 520-570 range. Acceptable for a DPS focused melee. And besides, what exactly are you tanking at 9th level?

[Disavowed]

I've seen ranger excluded from lfm's by many people at different times, and ladies and gentlemen, saying it's only the 'n00bs' or 'newbies' is just kidding yourselves.

Several of the more well known guilds (whose name we all know, but i shall not quote, you all know who you are) routinely exclude classes from their lfm's (epics, tod's, speedruns, hell, anything they feel like), including rangers, rogues and monks on a regular basis.

Just watch the lfm's, and i guarantee you'll see it (the exception of course, being anyone they know personally or fellow guild members, or course! chortle, chortle!)

Stop the new player bashing, it's repetitive and inacurate, the idiots are old, new, young, old, male and female, they have always been here, and always will be.

Incidentally, the 'TR only' groups are even funnier, god knows how many completely clueless TR's have made it into raids continuously suprising me with the level of ignorance that can be displayed by someone that has levelled to 20, twice!

If someone is as experienced, well geared, and well built as you all seem to be by your forums posts, i have trouble understanding why you would need to pug out your quests at all? Unless you actually don't mind finding the odd silver lining in those grey cloud quests and raids, (something i've noticed when i'm feeling a little adventurous, and jump on that 'maybe' lfm just in case, there's always a suprisingly good player in there somewhere :)

So to summarise the gist of this too lengthy post for you all, blaming everything that ever happens in the game that you don't happen to like (on the day of course, no real consistency is expected or displayed that can be observed) on the 'newbies', 'noobs', 'freetards', or whatever derogatory term you have managed to dredge up to describe anyone that hasn't played the game as long as you have is getting old, is not true, and is only providing a more damning reflection on the OP's then anything else at this point.

Enjoy your undoubtatly witty rejoiners and reputation games that will surely follow from this post.

Coit out~

Ghallanda : Coitfluff, Coitfu, Coittimeh, Coitburner, Coithealz, Coitzinga, Coitrippr, Luciforge Son of Coit : Revelationz

Pay very close attention to spelling. A newb is someone new to the game. They contribute as much as they can but more importantly they listen & learn. A noob is the tards we're talking about. As I've said many times you don't have to be new to be a noob.

As far as why I don't just solo? As I've also stated several times. I've been playing for 4 years. In that time I've never been in a guild. Yes most stuff I could solo. The stuff I can't, I've been blessed. All of the many good guilds on Khyber let me in on their runs and show me the ropes, and I greatly appreciate them for that.

So I pug out of both necessity and pleasure. I enjoy running with newbs and showing them the ropes like the guilds on Khyber do for me from time to time. I give away more gear than I care to even think about. The same goes for plat. Yesterday was a mod fort and heavy form belt along w/ spot 11 min lvl 11 goggles. I'm bringing up 4 lowbies and have three friends new to the game all with at least 3 toons. Yet I still gave these guys gear that should have gone to me or one of my buddies. But if dude is a newb and willing to listen then I'm down for giving him gear to help him help himself and me.

So before you pipe off about how this post is damning to the OP you might want to ask around about how often I take a newbie under my wing. It's way more often then I call out the tard noobies that I'm referring to in this thread. But one can only take so much then it's time to vent.

Guess what? When a vet does this the rest of the seasoned players see it and you see subtle changes in how LFM are being posted, to put these noobs in check. You'll see lfms saying all welcome, we don't need a cleric to complete this quest, first 6 and we go, crucible newbies welcome we know quest well & we'll teach you. Once this happens there starts to be a change in the noobs attitude because their mind has been opened.

[Disavowed]

A couple comments:

1) You are not the typical pugger. Comparing a toon you have built and geared to a random pugger in Gianthold going to look pretty bad for the pugger. I don't care what class/race/build they are.

2) A player of your caliber is not normally what a leader gets when a pug ranger X applies to his/her LFM. If that was the case, then the LFM would probably only list rangers for melee dps.

3) I agree with you. There is no reason to exclude any melee classes when looking for DPS. That people do it is born of ignorance and laziness. Any class can be gimped and an inexperienced player could screw up even something as easy as a barb or fighter. You really aren't protecting yourself from gimps, although that is the goal.


I was just playing devil's advocate and presenting the reasons why people shy away from certain classes. These players are generally less confident in their own ability to cover for one or more party members who are not "up to snuff". It is their own lack of confidence and previous (relatively limited) experiences with poor players in that class that cause them to do this.

As they get more experience they will run into experienced, veteran players running rogues and rangers and see what these classes can do. Then they will not be so quick to exclude them from the LFM. Also, they will gain more confidence in themselves and will be more willing to take on any joiners with less restrictions.

You make some good points there +1

[Schmoe]

If someone is as experienced, well geared, and well built as you all seem to be by your forums posts, i have trouble understanding why you would need to pug out your quests at all? Unless you actually don't mind finding the odd silver lining in those grey cloud quests and raids, (something i've noticed when i'm feeling a little adventurous, and jump on that 'maybe' lfm just in case, there's always a suprisingly good player in there somewhere :)


I think you answered your own question there.

[Boldrin]

Here is what is sad... we were running hard and elite shrouds more commonly in pugs back at level cap 16.

Now days... I cannot trust in a pug of level 20 with names I've not seen before to pull weight thru a normal run. Bloody annoys me, I can go in shroud with one group and it rips thru it like it be water works - Harry dead in part 4 and the blades but half in... turn around put together another group and they screw around killing over the nameds in part 2 for the third bloody time, jump around on a puzzle while a wall is closing in without speaking up and suck up enough healing mana in two rounds akin to Disavowed on a binge on Easter had he given up beer for lent.

One of the worst issues now be also everyone be TR'ng left and right. Was a time you saw a TR and could very well know you had someone been 'round the block... These days the newbies rush to level 20, not even geared nor experienced, turn 'round and bloody TR and run it to 20 yet again. They have little knowledge of the game, have no real experience in playing the class they just were and then TR'd to some other class cap it and TR it again without learning the trade of any class. My advice to these people... play the class a while tweak it out, go start a new class on a different slot if is what you're looking for... but a TR is not going to magically be some significant upgrade, experience playing is.




Agree 1000000000000% I hate seeing all these TRs that are clueless. I don't have time to TR yet, but soon my Cleric gets a facelift..and a crankshaft... and a lube job(had to say it)

[Boldrin]

I've seen just as many tards with a barb/ftr symbol as w/ a monk or rgr symbol. It's just not as obvious until you look at the death & kill counts or they open their mouths. Keep in mind I'm not in any guilds and thus if I'm not soloing or duoing w/ The Beergirl or a friend, I'm pugging. So I get the privelage of seeing many tards.

Just as many? I've seen more... and fighters and barbs are not so self sufficient, and the cleric tends to notice.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

but a TR is not going to magically be some significant upgrade, experience playing is.


THIS. Nice post emili. 2 points ain't gonna make or break. Playskill will.

And to the guy who says this thread is new player bashing. It's not. Read Beerman's post above, he explains the differences pretty well. (Beerman = Disavowed).