Paragon Assassin

[GhoulsTouch]

I wanted a Ninja type character that would be an expert assassin armed with a falchion and wasn't lax in the trap department. Instead of the normal finesse and OTWF the two extra spots I got from going the THF chain instead I used for an extra toughness and force of personality.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Paragon Assassin
Level 20 Chaotic Good Drow Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Rogue)
Hit Points: 262
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 16
Will: 9

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 15 23
Dexterity 10 14
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 18 20
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 14 16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 25
Bluff 6 13
Concentration 1 2
Diplomacy 2 3
Disable Device 8 31
Haggle 2 3
Heal 1 11
Hide 4 33
Intimidate 2 3
Jump 6 29
Listen -1 2
Move Silently 4 33
Open Lock 4 25
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 4 5
Search 8 30
Spot 3 29
Swim 5 29
Tumble 1 14
Use Magic Device 6 27

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I


Level 8 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I


Level 10 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 13 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Flanking Mastery I


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III


Level 16 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II


Level 17 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Slippery Mind


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV

[unbongwah]

What the heck do you need so much INT & CHA for? What does drow add to this build?

[sigtrent]

What the heck do you need so much INT & CHA for? What does drow add to this build?

The int gives you a greater chance to land the assassinate ability. The charisma is likely for UMD.

[sephiroth1084]

The int gives you a greater chance to land the assassinate ability. The charisma is likely for UMD.
Pretty sure the question was phrased as such to indicate how little value pumping those stats for those benefits actually holds.

Assassinate, while fun, doesn't require that much focus. I started with a 16 on mine, and would probably drop it to a 14 if I ever LR her, and I love assassinating stuff.

The Cha would be better off a little lower, with some junk like Lightning Reflexes (basically a complete waste on nearly any character) with Skill Focus: UMD, and more Str, Dex or Con.

Force of Personality is pretty mediocre that late in the game, since most Will saves are covered by buffs (FoM, Prot from Evil).

Add to all this that the rogue's fairly limited number of feats are being blown on 3 save-boosters, and this isn't looking very good...certainly not like a paragon of roguishness.

[GhoulsTouch]

Depends what you see as waste.
Crippling strike, Power Attack, and Improved Critical are really all the combat feats you need.
Force of personality can make use of a charisma item to boost both saves and UMD, likewise with an intelligence item will kick up search disable and reflex saves.

Of course not weighing in everything you wouldn't think about such as this at first glance.

Plus 5 to assassinate and excellent disarm and UMD. Sound jealous if you ask me.
Not many rogues could deal that much damage and still get their traps.

Of course you can adorn all your jewelries to boost your every stat if you like leaving not much room for much else. But even then would you be able to get both strength levers and intelligence runes?

PS-lightning reflexes isn't in there.

[supp3nhuhn]

I wouldn't boast about damage output on a thf assassin because loosing half your attacks pretty much costs you half the backstab damage, halves stat damage as well as chances for vorpal backstabs.

Those two fighter levels to take an extra toughness feat and force of personality are a waste. Get rid of those two and either change to two pally levels for better overall saves, some self healing ability and a crappy smite or pick more usefull feats like stunning blow for example. Alternatively go pure rogue for the new capstone.

In any case spot enhancements are a waste of ap, get rid of those.
Flanking mastery is pretty much useless considering you already get the backstab attack bonus in situations where that enhancement would apply.

[Kriogen]

Many things wrong:
- Drow + Rogue + Insightful Reflexes: rogues get strong Ref saves, Drow get "cheap" Dex. Just lower INT/CHA and get some Dex. Not max, just "some" and you'll have zero need for Ref saves boosting feats

- Drow do not get any bonus for 2handers. Atleast go Elf and use Falchion. That racial +2 bonus helps

- With such a high Int, id roll a Wizard. Wizard need high INT, for all other builds its a gimp. Not high INT, but the fact you don't put those build points somewhere else. 10-14 is optimum for Rogues.

- 2handed weapons are STR based weapons. More STR.

Nothing wrong going THF on a Rogue. But lower INT/CHA and boost STR and put a couple of points into DEX. Going WF/Elf/Dwarf would also be a good idea.

[Delt]

Sound jealous if you ask me.
Not many rogues could deal that much damage and still get their traps.


...must....not..../facepalm

[Bacab]

Many things wrong:
- Drow + Rogue + Insightful Reflexes: rogues get strong Ref saves, Drow get "cheap" Dex. Just lower INT/CHA and get some Dex. Not max, just "some" and you'll have zero need for Ref saves boosting feats

- Drow do not get any bonus for 2handers. Atleast go Elf and use Falchion. That racial +2 bonus helps

- With such a high Int, id roll a Wizard. Wizard need high INT, for all other builds its a gimp. Not high INT, but the fact you don't put those build points somewhere else. 10-14 is optimum for Rogues.

- 2handed weapons are STR based weapons. More STR.

Nothing wrong going THF on a Rogue. But lower INT/CHA and boost STR and put a couple of points into DEX. Going WF/Elf/Dwarf would also be a good idea.


Krio...thank you for writing this...so I did not have to.

Drow should NEVER 2HF. Either go Elf for Falchion. Or Dwarf for Great Axe. WF for any 2HF. Human gets bonus skill points and human versatility and a bonus feat.

Not to be mean Ghoul...but you seem to post 2-3 sub-optimal builds a day.

You may not intentionally mean to...but you may lead a newer player down a road of heartache.

I get it, that this is a board for open discussion...but when people point out flaws, just listen...do not argue.

The whole "you sound jealous" comment is really silly. Anyone that knows any better can point out 5 things wrong with your build within 5 seconds of looking at it.

You really should read more and post less...or post questions. Or atleast post in the form of questions rather than post it like its fact.

Yesterday you posted that "Power Critical" was a great feat. I did not bother to argue with you...why? Because I knew someone else would correct you. You obviously did not know how "confirming a critical works".

If you have questions about builds...read other popular builds. Also learn who the "best builders" are.

Here is a list. Anthios...Impaqt...Junts...MrWizard (I really like his Cannon Fodder build) just to name a few. I would suggest reading and learning from these guys.

I make this post with the utmost respect for you. I have defended you in another thread, but making a "broken build" and then defending it and being arrogant really dis-credits you. If you did make a great build...many people are going to be wary and look for cracks in it based of of past failures.

I am not trying to bait you. I am not accusing you of being a troll. I just feel you do not know as much as you think you know about game mechanics. Your understanding of this game is not as good as you think it is. No biggie...you are 100% at the right place to learn. But a wise man once said: "It is hard to learn while talking (or posting) and not listening (or reading)"

I really hope you take this to heart and follow my advice a little bit. It will make you a better builder and a better player.

Sincerely,
Bacab

[unbongwah]

If you really want higher saves and an excuse for good CHA, why not do a pally splash instead of fighter?

[sephiroth1084]

Depends what you see as waste.
Crippling strike, Power Attack, and Improved Critical are really all the combat feats you need.
Almost all of a rogue's damage comes from sneak attack, therefore the best way to go about taking combat feats on a rogue is to enhance your delivery system. For any non-acrobat rogues, TWF is simply miles ahead of anything else, because it gives you more sneak attacks. Adding another 10 damage per swing does not come anywhere close to getting even 1 more sneak attack per attack sequence (I'm counting 4 attacks, so +40 damage is less valuable than 1 more attack with SA on it).



Force of personality can make use of a charisma item to boost both saves and UMD, likewise with an intelligence item will kick up search disable and reflex saves.

Gear and skillful play can make up for a rogue's generally poor Will save. In fact, the only place where I've really regretted not having a better Will save on my rogue is in Tower of Despair, and having a set of boots would solve that problem.


Of course not weighing in everything you wouldn't think about such as this at first glance.Remedying that.


Plus 5 to assassinate and excellent disarm and UMD. Sound jealous if you ask me.
Not many rogues could deal that much damage and still get their traps.
Jealous? No. Hell, I don't even care if you build and play this guy--enjoy! What I care about is making sure that some new player doesn't stumble across something labeled "Paragon Rogue" and think they should mimic this.

Actually, you're looking a +1 to +2 to Assassinate vs. someone who started with a 16 or 14 Int, respectively. I like assassinating, and manage to do so frequently even while in a group of zergy players. That said, there is really no reason to start with that much Int. From level 12 to the Vale, you can assassinate almost anything with pretty reasonable success. Also, since you (currently) get2 attacks while assassinating with TWF, the target has to fail TWO saves or die, which will almost always kill your mark until you get to Amrath--yet another reason that TWF > THF.In Amrath, the saves are so high, and so many things have deathward, than an extra 5-10% chance to assassinate will not often be enough to make it worth setting up.

UMD is UMD. You could start with a 10 and get enough UMD for no-fail Heal scrolls, though, yes, it would require more gear/feats. This is one strength (almost the only one) of your drow choice.

As a rogue you want Dex for Hide, Move Silently, Balance, Open Locks and Reflex saves. Your dumping Dex for Int to Reflex doesn't remove the value of Dex for everything else, and basically wastes both a feat and choosing a race with a good Dex and racial Dex enhancements. You simply cannot get Int as high as Dex on a rogue or a drow rogue. And you're wasting a feat doing this. If you don't want to take Weapon Finesse, you can put Str the same or higher at start, and then put level up points there, and end up with an almost even split between Str and Dex, which would basically accomplish half of what you're trying to do here without wasting a feat.

Oh, and you'll need Wis if you want to spot anything, since Spot ranks + item is rarely enough for Hard and Elite traps.


Of course you can adorn all your jewelries to boost your every stat if you like leaving not much room for much else.
This might hold some weight if you could point out just what you'd be putting in the slots you'd normally spend on Dex and Wis that is so valuable.


But even then would you be able to get both strength levers and intelligence runes?
Unless you are soloing, this is almost never a consideration (particularly the Str levers, since, after the Harbor, any fighter, barbarian, paladin and most rangers should be able to get almost any Str lever in the game without even being buffed), but even if you are soloing, how many quests have Str levers that can also be soloed?



PS-lightning reflexes isn't in there.
Nice editing job, replacing it with a second Toughness--also kind of a waste.


In summary, nothing about this character has any synergy with your choices:


TWF is better than THF for rogues
drow have absolutely no bonuses with THF
most of the reason to go drow is to get DEX, Int and Cha up a bit, and then for the racial weapon bonuses
a higher assassinate DC isn't better than having 2 chances to assassinate something
Insightful Reflexes and Force of Personality may allow you to attain decent saves while dumping those saves' primary stats, but the feats don't free up any the need for Dex and Wis entirely

My halfling assassin rogue, with 1 level of fighter (2 levels loses you 1 rogue specialty feat and 1d6 sneak attack) has gotten nearly every trip in the game (Cabal on Elite on-level and Sunken Parish Elite being the only holdouts, neither of which are necessary), while have much higher DPS, better Reflex, slightly worse Will (you get +2 points at the cost of build points and a feat), comparable SA, can assassinate nearly everything outside of Amrath (and some stuff in Amrath, and more when I get my exceptional Int item and +3 Int tome) that can be assassinated without difficulty, and better balance, hide, move silently.

[supp3nhuhn]

Oh, and you'll need Wis if you want to spot anything, since Spot ranks + item is rarely enough for Hard and Elite traps.


Don't really see that, i regularly spot traps even without wearing my item although i can't find it when i search without the other one and my int is 6 higher then my wis.

[sephiroth1084]

Don't really see that, i regularly spot traps even without wearing my item although i can't find it when i search without the other one and my int is 6 higher then my wis.
/shrug
At what level and difficulties has this been your experience?

On the traps that I find most important to spot on higher difficulties, I tend to have some difficulty on my rogue on occasion, which seems to indicate that more Wis is basically the relevant factor since she had maxed ranks and the best spot item available along with self-buffed GH and either a VotM or HoGF, meaning that the only buffs and quasi-buffs missing were a bard song (+2) and more than a starting 10 Wis (+1 or +2 depending).

Maybe it's because Search and Disable are easier to increase on a rogue (and that I started with more Int than Wis), but those hadn't really been a problem ever.

In any case, that's a fairly minor point. Spending a feat for +2 Will saves is pretty poor. Jacking up Cha just to spend that feat is even worse. If you just wanted +2 Will, you could have started with a 10 or 12 Cha and purchased Iron Will, which has the same effect. Even then, I'd probably not call +2 to a save worth blowing one of a rogue's few feats on.

[supp3nhuhn]

Was at lvl 14 or 15 in gh elite quests where i noticed that.
With items i also need to regularly walk quite a bit onward before being able to search a trap i spotted.
Wis is 14, Int 20 so search is a bit higher then spot even.

[sephiroth1084]

Well, a few GH elite traps have the highest Search checks in the game (including epic traps), while their Spot checks tend to be quite a bit lower. Obviously, there's no hard and fast rule since Spot and Search checks tend to vary quite a bit.

Still, try swapping items and buffs around on traps you know about--try without Wis on, without Int, etc...

[GhoulsTouch]

First off I edited before anybody posted. Check the time and date.

Secondly someone said I needed more wisdom for spot...when it was a point less then search. 29 spot 30 search...come on man. Search was maxxed so its not like I was holding back. It would be like having 18 wisdom in comparison.

Thirdly any drow enhancement for damage on rapiers is a failed arguement as going a dex based rogue you probably need something like that but with a THF strength based rogue it isn't necessary. The THF also gives you more damage for your strength then what you would acheive with even the same strength with TWF.

Compacting abilities' properties helps maximize those abilities and make the most of them being able to focus on primary attributes instead of being a thin spread such as in the case of the twf rogue.

In facing multiple mobs with heavy fort THF is superior hands down.

Choosing Iron Will and upping wisdom instead of Force of Personality when you want high Charisma for higher UMD isn't a better choice. You kill two birds with one stone my way. Sure you could choose iron will and skill focus UMD but thats two feats not one.Same with dividing up dex and int. Sure you could take Skill focus search, and then disable. I'd rather just stick with insightful reflexes.


As far as dex for hide and move silently 33 ranks in both seem ample enough don't you think?

Getting a 31 disable device, 30 search with a TWF rogue as I said would be a strain taking alot of enhancements (near impossible for an assassin build) or possibly feats to attempt it. Plus the high intel makes for an all arounder as far as skills go getting the majority of skills to places high stats alone could not take them.

[toughguyjoe]

http://my.ddo.com/character/argonnessen/wenglebert/


Try this. This rogue doesn't suck :D And I logged out wielding Muckbanes lol.

[GhoulsTouch]

http://my.ddo.com/character/argonnessen/wenglebert/


Try this. This rogue doesn't suck :D And I logged out wielding Muckbanes lol.

Post the build without the gear and let's compare notes.

[sephiroth1084]

Thirdly any drow enhancement for damage on rapiers is a failed arguement as going a dex based rogue you probably need something like that but with a THF strength based rogue it isn't necessary. The THF also gives you more damage for your strength then what you would acheive with even the same strength with TWF.


In facing multiple mobs with heavy fort THF is superior hands down.

WF would give you more, since you could start with more Con and more or less ignore Will saves and add a lot of damage to THF.

And the THF bonuses to damage (Str, PA, glancing blows) simply do not compare to the greater number of attacks you get with TWF against anything that SA can apply against. So, in the situations where you should shine, you shine less, and in situations where most rogues would have trouble, you're a bit ahead. Matter of preference here, but certainly not a standard choice.




Choosing Iron Will and upping wisdom instead of Force of Personality when you want high Charisma for higher UMD isn't a better choice. You kill two birds with one stone my way. Sure you could choose iron will and skill focus UMD but thats two feats not one.Same with dividing up dex and int. Sure you could take Skill focus search, and then disable. I'd rather just stick with insightful reflexes.
Well, my points were that Iron Will is generally viewed as a waste of a feat, and you're basically paying more for the same thing (build points--12 Cha is enough--and a feat). I'd just replace FoP w/ SF: UMD and call it a day.

There is no need for SF: Search or Disable. None. A rogue with 0 AP or feats (and without a Shroud Int skills item) spent on trapskills can get nearly every trap in the game, including epic traps. So, all you get is less Reflex, slightly higher assassinates and slightly weaker skills at the cost of yet another feat.



As far as dex for hide and move silently 33 ranks in both seem ample enough don't you think?
I think you mean 23 ranks. And with more Dex you can spend the ranks elsewhere.



Getting a 31 disable device, 30 search with a TWF rogue as I said would be a strain taking alot of enhancements (near impossible for an assassin build) or possibly feats to attempt it. Plus the high intel makes for an all arounder as far as skills go getting the majority of skills to places high stats alone could not take them.
Have you played a rogue? You don't need to spend any AP on trap enhancements for 99.999% of the content in the game. You could count the number of traps that require investment on one hand, and most of those are optional or entirely unnecessary.

[GhoulsTouch]

So really it all depends on playstyle and circumstance.

PRO's:

Better trap skills
Higher DC for assassinate
More skillpoints
Better UMD
Glancing Blows
No negative to attack bonus from TWF
Extra feats from not having to take finesse and OTWF
Higher will saves
Can acheive stat to get strength levers/intel runes for solo

Cons:
One less attack in sneak attack
Poorer reflex saves then a dexxer
Less bonus to AC
Can not dual weild different weapon/damage types
Am I missing anything?

[Bacab]

So really it all depends on playstyle and circumstance.

PRO's:

Better trap skills
Higher DC for assassinate
More skillpoints
Better UMD
Glancing Blows and better bonuses from strength due to THF
No negative to attack bonus from TWF
Extra feats from not having to take finesse and OTWF
Higher will saves
Can acheive stat to get strength levers/intel runes for solo

Cons:
One less attack in sneak attack
Poorer reflex saves then a dexxer
Less bonus to AC
Can not dual weild different weapon/damage types
Am I missing anything?

CONS to your PROS
Glancing blows are being nerfed.
Most people do not bother with OTWF.
Higher DPS ROG are STR builds and dual-wield. You can not compare your build to a gimped build and tout it as the best.
Will saves would be higher if you took 2 levels of PLD.

CONS to your CONS
Half the sneak attacks...not one less. The way you wrote it was miss-leading.
ROG do not struggle with Reflex saves.
AC does not matter. IF you wanted a real AC toon...you would have to invest a TON of build points and gear and most likely take levels of MNK. Also most AC ROGs dual-wield for the +4 AC on one weapon and another effect on the other.
When using stat damagers/paralyzers/cursespewers/vorpals...2WF is vastly superior to 2HF.
Also if you wanted to make a 2HF ROG. I would suggest making a Thief-Acrobat. Or go with *any* race other than drow. EVERY OTHER RACE gets a *bonus* to 2HF. WF ger power attack. Elf get Falchion enhancements. Human get a bonus feat. Dwarf get GreatAxe enhancements. Halfling get sneak attack enhancements.

Seriously man. You swung for the fences and tried something different than the "High ST Khopesh Using ROG". Grats...but you happened to strike out on this one.

[GhoulsTouch]

I don't think so not for what I was aiming for anyway, assassin takes up alot of enhancements so getting anywhere near the trap and UMD capability displayed here on any other race would be impossible. 24 DD is too low for my taste, why take a rogue into Epic if he can't hit the traps and assassinate doesnt work? I did decided to heighten CON and take UMD dropping one toughness. Which actually heightens UMD by one and hp by 20.

Half the sneak attacks. I dont think so. Only in assassination attempts or sneak mode. You are hitting more then one target with glancing alongside your THF melee companion helping to wittle them down as you move down the line. A little here and there adds up until you can focus on them.

Nothing to nerf THF sneak attacks while moving is there?
Didn't TWF suffer a greater nerf?

[sephiroth1084]

I don't think so not for what I was aiming for anyway, assassin takes up alot of enhancements so getting anywhere near the trap and UMD capability displayed here on any other race would be impossible. 24 DD is too low for my taste, why take a rogue into Epic if he can't hit the traps and assassinate doesnt work? I did decided to heighten CON and take UMD dropping one toughness. Which actually heightens UMD by one and hp by 20.

You haven't been listening/reading. My assassin rogue, with ZERO investment in trapskills other than ranks, basic gear and a starting 16 Int went and got the epic traps in VoN 5 the day they nerfed them. She's also gotten the traps in Epic Wiz King, and I'm sure she'll be able to get the epic traps in VoN 3 and 4. I posted a thread with screenshots of the numbers.

You don't need to start with an 18 Int. Hell, I could have started with a 12 or 14 and still gotten the traps!

As for UMD, she is over 100% on Heal scrolls, which is the real benchmark, and started with a 12 Cha. Again, could have started lower there as well if I'd wanted to, and may even drop my 1 fighter level and SF: UMD when Update 5 hits to get the new rogue capstone.


Half the sneak attacks. I dont think so. Only in assassination attempts or sneak mode. Getting sneak attacks on glancing blows is very likely counterproductive, as you're probably going to end up grabbing aggro from a bunch of mobs, which will erase your SA damage and put you back behind just about every other rogue on DPS, even if you don't die from all the aggro.

TWF grants many more sneak attacks per cycle or per minute than THF will, and primary target DPS is quite a bit more important than secondary or tertiary target DPS, especially for a rogue.

[/quote]
Nothing to nerf THF sneak attacks while moving is there?
Didn't TWF suffer a greater nerf?[/quote]
It's debatable which got hit harder, but TWF didn't get hit so hard as to make THF as a rogue suddenly better.

[sephiroth1084]

So really it all depends on playstyle and circumstance.

PRO's:

Better trap skills Marginally so
Higher DC for assassinate Marginally so (but nice in the few places where it matters)
More skillpoints Largely unnecessary
Better UMD Debatable: +2-4 build points vs. SF: UMD
Glancing Blows Debatable whether this is a pro
No negative to attack bonus from TWF Irrelevant. With SA Accuracy, a SA item (Tharne's) and attacking from behind, you're going to be hitting everything anywhere anyway.
Extra feats from not having to take finesse and OTWF No one takes OTWF on a rogue anyway. You don't have extra feats because you spent 3 on an extra Toughness, Force of Personality and Insightful Reflexes!
Higher will saves Again, marginally so, and at great expense.
Can acheive stat to get strength levers/intel runes for solo List the quests that have Str and/or Int levers that can be solo'ed.

Cons:
One less attack in sneak attack Quite a bit more.
Poorer reflex saves then a dexxer This is probably more significant than most of your Pros.
Less bonus to AC Irrelevant in this case.
Can not dual weild different weapon/damage types Significant, though not overwhelmingly important.
Am I missing anything?
Comments in this color.

[GhoulsTouch]

Well how about the fact you can pull off vorpals and glancing blows together?

[Bacab]

if your goal is vorpals...dual-wielding is better.

I do not think you can vorpal on a glancing blow...though not 100% sure

[GhoulsTouch]

Not vorpal on a glancing blow, but you are doing more damage if you can vorpal and carry on to a glancing blow as you have a chance to vorpal on any attack that counts as a sneak attack without having to be in sneak mode like assassinate.

[Bacab]

Not vorpal on a glancing blow, but you are doing more damage if you can vorpal and carry on to a glancing blow as you have a chance to vorpal on any attack that counts as a sneak attack without having to be in sneak mode like assassinate.

But how does 2HF>2WF for this game mechanic? Would the same/similar logic apply?

[GhoulsTouch]

THF has a better chance to produce a glancing blow then TWF has in producing an off hand attack and then for more damage.

If I were going more assassin then trying to hike up my trapskills then WF would be better sure.

[GhoulsTouch]

Okay so here is a resketch taking into consideration what some of you have said.In trying to make sure to get all the prestige pre-reqs I was conservative on some of the optional enhancements that could have been taken earlier.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Rogue)
Hit Points: 282
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 12
Reflex: 16
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 26
Dexterity 10 16
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 12 14
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 10 12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 0 12
Bluff 0 8
Concentration 2 4
Diplomacy 4 25
Disable Device 5 28
Haggle 0 2
Heal -1 1
Hide 4 33
Intimidate 0 2
Jump 8 27
Listen -1 3
Move Silently 4 32
Open Lock 4 27
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 1 3
Search 5 29
Spot 2 27
Swim 4 9
Tumble 1 5
Use Magic Device 4 25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Search I
Enhancement: Rogue Spot I


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Lightning Reflexes
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense II


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II


Level 10 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III


Level 13 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I


Level 16 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 17 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III


Level 19 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device II

[Rauven]

I think perhaps that I have identified the fundamental flaw in your design, unless of course I am incorrect in my understanding of what it is you think THF is going to bring to this build. It's a little hard to get a clear understanding of your goals as you've been very argumentative over ever suggestion that has been made, especially those that would improve your build that don't involve a change to fighting style.

Unless this mechanic has been changed, which I do not think that it has, you do not get sneak attacks on glancing blows. No SA's on glancing blows means no chance to vorpal on a SA. My experience with this comes from playing a thief-acrobat, who hits everything around him with glancing blows, but has never once got a SA on one of those blows.

Also, since I have an assassin build, I thought I'd point out that no you will not have a higher DC for your assassinate. The DC calculation is 10 + (Rogue Level) + (Int Mod). Lets compare two builds with naked stats at lvl 20:

Yours:
10 + 18 (Rogue Lvl) + 5 (18 base Int +2 tome) = 33 assassinate DC

Mine:
10 + 20 (Rogue Lvl) + 3 (14 base Int +2 tome) + 1 (U5 +2 Int capstone) = 34 assassinate DC

I include the capstone as I will be taking that on my assassin that started with 14 Int. If you remove the capstone we have the same assassinate DC. But I achieved it at the savings of several ability points. Not to mention that since I'm dual-wielding I can dual assassinate, something you will likely never see with your falchion.

One last suggestion, if you are intent on sticking with THF and the falchion move those skill points out of swim and put them into diplomacy. You're going to need it to shed the unwanted agro you'll be drawing that will cost you your sneak attacks.

[GhoulsTouch]

On my second take I did buff up diplomacy, but as I glanced at the THF WF build currently being discussed it inspired me to make yet another draft. I just don't know whether to take diplomacy or bluff however unsure on whether or not improved feint feat is based off of it.

PS: I never said you get vorpal off a glancing blow, you can vorpal and have your attack carry over to a normal glancing blow that doesnt include sneak attack damage. Two handed weapons seem better when facing up against multiple enemies, and against those with high DR and/or who are immune to criticals. Dual weapons seem better against single opponents.

Here is the more DPS version somewhat inspired by the THF WF rogue.http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=256781

Improved feint is an AOE feat that allows sneak attacks via automatic bluff that allows you to carry out your sneak attack damage even when the enemy is targeting you.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Female
(2 Fighter \ 18 Rogue)
Hit Points: 260
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 12
Reflex: 16
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 24
Dexterity 14 20
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 14 16
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 10 12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 5 26
Bluff 4 31
Concentration 2 4
Diplomacy 0 2
Disable Device 6 27
Haggle 0 2
Heal -1 1
Hide 6 37
Intimidate 0 2
Jump 7 30
Listen -1 3
Move Silently 6 33
Open Lock 6 29
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 2 4
Search 6 29
Spot 3 27
Swim 3 14
Tumble 3 7
Use Magic Device 4 25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Feint
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Elven Keen Eyes I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I


Level 10 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 13 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 17 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost IV


Level 19 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I

[sephiroth1084]

I find myself more and more confused every time I read one of the character plans.

Okay, a few things:

Diplomacy is better than Bluff. Diplo works against multiple opponents, lasts for ~6 seconds and activates faster, while Bluff works against only a single opponent and only lasts for ~one swing.

Improved Feint is, from what I've read, may be slightly better than Diplo (my impression is that it is better than bluff but still worse than diplomacy). I'd say, not at all worth spending 2 feats for.

Critical Accuracy, as an enhancement (or the feat version in Power Critical) is pretty worthless from around mid-game onward, as, in general, you'll be hitting often enough that you won't need a boost to confirming crits. And that becomes more and more often the case as you level until you hit epics, by which points you should probably have some Seeker gear worked in somewhere, which covers that need anyway.

Cleave sucks. Period.

You shouldn't really need the Spot, Search, Disable enhancements as long as you keep your equipment up to par as you level, but they are certainly cheap enough that grabbing them for a level or two can be worthwhile (particularly in the 5-10 zone, where you're likely to be doing quests above your level on hard or elite that have a lot of nasty traps). Not something I'd keep after about level 12, though.

Drow is still not a good choice for any 2-handed weapon build. And if you aren't starting with high Cha and Int, it's a pretty poor choice overall...and we already went over why a very high Int and Cha isn't necessary.

[GhoulsTouch]

Some other people disagree about some of the points you made, from intelligence (you hear too often about incompetent rogues) to the prospect of using cleave with improved feint. If (I.F.) is based off bluff boosting it would only help.

Imagine this, you run face first into a mob you hit Improved Feignt then Cleave right off. You might be able to pull off vorpals and isn't cleave considered a full attack rather then a glancing blow thereby allowing your sneak attack damage to be conveyed upon all? Even when improved feint isn't necessary cleave would by useful for such a reason.

For a normal melee cleave may be slower and thereby ineffective, but for a rogue that could use it to boost his DPS by allowing sneak attack damage to be conveyed into it, well I wouldn't say cleave sucks used that way.

[toughguyjoe]

Some other people disagree about some of the points you made, from intelligence (you hear too often about incompetent rogues) to the prospect of using cleave with improved feint. If (I.F.) is based off bluff boosting it would only help.

Imagine this, you run face first into a mob you hit Improved Feignt then Cleave right off. You might be able to pull off vorpals and isn't cleave considered a full attack rather then a glancing blow thereby allowing your sneak attack damage to be conveyed upon all?

For a normal melee cleave may be slower and thereby ineffective, but for a rogue that could use it to boost his DPS

Awesome! In the time it takes my TWF rogue to make three attacks on one mob, you made one attack on the group!

Now you have agro, and my sneak attacks are still working, because well, quite frankly.....

I let the barb go up there and swing glancing blows to get agro, then I went and stole ALL of his kills. Well, thats not true, he probably got half of the kills.

Since you requested it i'll *sigh* go back and try to remember exactly how I built my rogue. I know the Int started at 14 the con started at 14 and the Str and Dex were higher, with all level ups going to Str, full TWF line and OTWF until i don't need it anymore ( I use it at lower levels Since i use Power Attack to amp up my damage)

[sephiroth1084]

Some other people disagree about some of the points you made, from intelligence (you hear too often about incompetent rogues) There are a lot of rogues running around with 10 Int, Korthos trap skill items and regular thieves' tools that can't get traps.

You should upgrade your Spot, Search and Disable items every odd level (+5 at 5, +7 at 7, etc...), keep the best +Int item (or Fox's Cunning pots) on hand in a slot that doesn't interfere with your skill items (it won't do any good to have a set of Clever goggles if you are using goggles for Search and Disable), Heroism potions or clickies, Voice of the Master and try to get decent thieves' tools (can buy +5s on the AH for fairly cheap).

That set-up will let you get nearly every trap in the game even on elite and a level or two below the quest level.


Imagine this, you run face first into a mob you hit Improved Feignt then Cleave right off. You might be able to pull off vorpals and isn't cleave considered a full attack rather then a glancing blow thereby allowing your sneak attack damage to be conveyed upon all? Even when improved feint isn't necessary cleave would by useful for such a reason.

For a normal melee cleave may be slower and thereby ineffective, but for a rogue that could use it to boost his DPS by allowing sneak attack damage to be conveyed into it, well I wouldn't say cleave sucks used that way.
What you'll actually end up doing, is running at a bunch of guys, cleaving them all with sneak attack, dealing a chunk of damage, and then having aggro from the whole group you can't shake quickly, which will drop your DPS, since you won't get SA on any of them, and may also get you killed, since you won't have enough AC or HP to handle getting pummeled by a mob of mobs.

Yes, you may on occasion try this trick, and end up lopping the heads off of a whole group, but it won't come up often enough to be worth spending all those feats.If you want to try it, go ahead. I have nothing against people playing around with quirky builds--the reason for my initial, uh, rudeness, was that you titled your thread Paragon Assassin, which implies that this is somehow the pinnacle of assassin builds, which it isn't.

[GhoulsTouch]

Paragon Assassin to me meant archetype. Like a drow executioner, infiltrator. I chose Paragon because of the picture it portrayed...a dark cold blooded killer brandishing a large vicious looking weapon.

I might do another attempt working in both bluff and diplomacy. If bluff does affect Improved Feint all the better if not still can be used for single targets such as kiting with low damage thrown weapons like Shuriken. And of course bluff also works in sneak mode to pull monsters one at a time.

[GhoulsTouch]

Okay so I boosted Diplomacy, Kept Bluff and the AOE feats needed for mass sneak attacks for engaging both frontline and flanking sequencing Diplomacy, Improved Feint, then Cleave in repeatitive succession to keep mobs on the melee and in case of failure still having chance to still execute the sneak attack if aggro is drawn with a chance to revert it yet back again towards the melee.

Chance to Vorpal being able to add sneak attack damage to an entire group no matter the circumstance with an instant bluff attempt from improved feint and cleave, administering glancing blows regardless of success or failure while being able to manipulate/avoid aggro from subtle backstabbing IV alongside diplomacy, and still being decent at traps doesn't seem like a bad combination to me.

Seems more exciting then sawing them down one at a time.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Chaotic Neutral Drow Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Rogue)
Hit Points: 240
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 16
Will: 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 24
Dexterity 14 20
Constitution 12 14
Intelligence 16 18
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 12 14

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 20
Bluff 5 32
Concentration 1 3
Diplomacy 5 26
Disable Device 7 29
Haggle 1 3
Heal -1 1
Hide 2 37
Intimidate 1 3
Jump 7 31
Listen -1 3
Move Silently 6 37
Open Lock 6 29
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 5
Search 7 30
Spot 3 26
Swim 6 14
Tumble 3 7
Use Magic Device 5 26

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Feint
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 5 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Hide I
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently I


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Hide II
Enhancement: Rogue Move Silently II


Level 7 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin I


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 10 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II


Level 11 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion


Level 13 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost IV


Level 14 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Cripling Strike
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy III


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II


Level 17 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Skill Mastery
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing III


Level 19 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing IV


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking III
Enhancement: Rogue Assassin III
Enhancement: Rogue Disable Device I