Power regeneration...

[Mojo]

I imagine it's been suggested before, but I thought I'd bring it up in case it hadn't.

What would people say to allowing power (mana) to regenerate slowly while IN quests (ie. without needing a shrine). That's JUST power, not health. For that you would need a shrine.

Why, you ask? Well, it seems to me that pure spellcasters are at a significant disadvantage. When their power runs out, they're basically incapable of doing anything. A Wizard with no power is just a wimp with a staff. Other classes that don't rely as heavily on power are still able to carry on. Healing potions and so forth abound, and they usually have access to heavy armour and weapons. Casters are stuck with little chance to succeed shoudl they run out of power.

Thus, I suggest this. A slow (VERY slow - slower than in town) regeneration of power. You'd still be much faster going to a shrine or using a potion, if you're fortunate enough to get one, but on those occasions when one is not available, you will be able to continue the quest if you have some patience.

What do you think?

[blitzschlag]

uh, hell no!

i'd say you get a caster up in the upteens (if you haven't already) and then we talk again.

beeing a spellcaster is all about effectivenes. conserve spellpoints. nuke when apropriate. run when apropriate. hide if needed.

[LordRavnos]

Even if it was slower than town, I can easily see groups willing to sit back and wait 20 minutes for a healer to regen. Yes not most of them, but enough that it could take even more of the difficulty out of quests. Honestly as a caster, you should be learning how to conserve SP between shrines. As a wizard I do not cast if I do not have too, I mean whats the point of laying down a firewall if the melee can take it out almost as fast as I can lay it down? I save my SP for when its needed, haste and buffs, instant kills for dangerous targets in the far back, AoE for high hp mobs, etc.

As my healers, I do not top people off constantly. I wait til a heal is needed then cast it. Its a drain to top off constantly. Leaves more sp for CC and BB for example. So as much as I would like it, I have to say no to it.

[Mojo]

And what do you do if you run out of mana?

This has happened many times to me, and as an old school D&Der, I conserve better than most. I remember having ONE spell per day! However, this game is not quite D&D. We face a lot more and a lot tougher foes than D&D provided (for instance, a L5 Wizard could toss a fireball into a room with 1000 kobolds in it, and be fairly certain he'll kill them all - in DDO, a fireball might not kill even ONE...).

There have been many times, especially solo, when I am left half way through a mission and have no power left. My suggestion would allow me to wait a while then continue. Left alone, I'm basically screwed. As I say, other classes that don't rely on power as much are not so hindered. I'm not looking for something unbalanced, I don't think.

[r3dl4nce]

No thanks. If you don't know how to use at best your SP, don't do caster or buy SP pots. Or, better, learn!

[zorander6]

What follows is my not so humble opinion.

This has been brought up multiple times and the:
http://msmwestmidlands.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/easy_button.jpg says that Turbine would rather you buy mnemonic pots in the store rather than have regenerating spell points. Furthermore having infinite SP would overpower the casting classes to the point they are boring to play. Now you have challenge in asking yourself "self, do I spam blade barrier or do I heal that WF that didn't take any healing enhancements?" Most mages can learn to conserve and use their SP and "regen" them at the shrines. Which is what they are there for.

Most groups don't want to wait 20 minutes for someone to regen points in a quest. While in town.....sometimes. Typically the newer players from WOW or whatever are ok with it but more experienced players really would rather questing.

The quests don't need to be made easier. If you want easy quests play final fantasy or something like that. Sure it's fun for about 5 minutes but after that it gets dull.

[JPDefault]

If you run out of mana, you're most probably doing something wrong. ;)

[Naolas]

There are already so many ways to regenerate sp.

- Torc
- Conc opp
- abbot gloves
- int yugo pot
- ss ring
- bauble
- korthos neck :)
- mnemonic potions
- ...

Who knows, maybe there is something in the guild ship perks as well.

[zorander6]

And what do you do if you run out of mana?

This has happened many times to me, and as an old school D&Der, I conserve better than most. I remember having ONE spell per day! However, this game is not quite D&D. We face a lot more and a lot tougher foes than D&D provided (for instance, a L5 Wizard could toss a fireball into a room with 1000 kobolds in it, and be fairly certain he'll kill them all - in DDO, a fireball might not kill even ONE...).

There have been many times, especially solo, when I am left half way through a mission and have no power left. My suggestion would allow me to wait a while then continue. Left alone, I'm basically screwed. As I say, other classes that don't rely on power as much are not so hindered. I'm not looking for something unbalanced, I don't think.

You have several options, like in PnP you can "camp" at the shrines, you use a melee hireling, or you can set up an LFM if you need help to get to the shrine. Running out of SP sucks and it does happen but there are alternatives, you can also use a cleric hireling with DV to get some SP back if needed as well.

[Myrddinman]

Yeah, you're probably not going to get lots of support on this one. Are you mostly soloing with your wizard? If you're in a relatively good group, you shouldn't need to use that many spell points if you are conserving well.

As far as thinking you're useless, Master's Touch and a great sword will go a long way :D

[Kriogen]

Soon (tm).

[Lazzo]

When mana runs out, casters are basically incapable of doing nothing?

But when health runs out, melees are practically incapable of doing nothing.

[DoctorWhofan]

EDIT: dup. post.

[DoctorWhofan]

I imagine it's been suggested before, but I thought I'd bring it up in case it hadn't.

What would people say to allowing power (mana) to regenerate slowly while IN quests (ie. without needing a shrine). That's JUST power, not health. For that you would need a shrine.

Why, you ask? Well, it seems to me that pure spellcasters are at a significant disadvantage. When their power runs out, they're basically incapable of doing anything.
THey can do jsut about anything, they just have to be built for it.

A Wizard with no power is just a wimp with a staff. Last spells casted: Master's touch. Break out that armour you got from the last chest and a weapon.

OR...party with a DV cleric. They have mana to give. There are alot of hireling clerics who do that.

Other classes that don't rely as heavily on power are still able to carry on.

So? They can't cast 1000 point Firewalls either. it's balance.

Healing potions and so forth abound, and they usually have access to heavy armour and weapons.
So do you.


Casters are stuck with little chance to succeed shoudl they run out of power.

Thats because you are not using your imagination.

Thus, I suggest this. A slow (VERY slow - slower than in town) regeneration of power. You'd still be much faster going to a shrine or using a potion, if you're fortunate enough to get one, but on those occasions when one is not available, you will be able to continue the quest if you have some patience.



What do you think?

IN LIME. Again no. It's an easy button that would further discourage grouping. Try bringing a party or buffing yourself up with sheild, resist energy, herosim, Exp. retreat and master's touch, put on that armour you got and pick up that great axe.

In DnD, the rules are there so you know where the boundries are. The rules areNOT there to stop you. No profiency in armour? ok you will be tripped alot. Master's touch takes care of weapons. Heroism offests negatives to hit better, resists and shield are self explantory, and Exp. retreat has you run faster. Haste is better. Extend the buffs. Brings some healing potions and have fun. Or again, bring a party and be a traditional wizard. the choice is yours.

Who says that a wizard HAS to carry a staff, and can only kill with a spell? Probably the same that say clerics should only heal.

[gurslak]

I'm going to say NO on this one. As many have said before me it'll take the challenge out of playing casters and to be honest not being able to run around tossing fireballs left right and centre is more entertaining, it means you have to engage the brain and consider your options.
Killing 1000 Kobolds with 1 fireball in PnP D&D, maybe if they're all tightly packed in a small corridor whhich funnels the balst, otherwise not likely. Oh and my casters in PnP and baldurs gate for that matter always carried a ranged weapon which was often their primary means of offense.

[Visty]

And what do you do if you run out of mana?

i dont run out of mana

[darktau]

I have to say no as other above have said. If you are blowing threw your sp to fast and cant complete a quest, use other resources that are already in the game.

Options include.
Naolas list of suggestions suggestions,
and what healer classes have had to use when there sp ran out sence the game was launched scrolls and wands.

[DoctorWhofan]

And what do you do if you run out of mana?

I don't.

This has happened many times to me, and as an old school D&Der, I conserve better than most. I remember having ONE spell per day! However, this game is not quite D&D. We face a lot more and a lot tougher foes than D&D provided (for instance, a L5 Wizard could toss a fireball into a room with 1000 kobolds in it, and be fairly certain he'll kill them all - in DDO, a fireball might not kill even ONE...).

Exactly, this game isn't PnP, but the way it is set up with the shrines has the "feel" of DnD. YOu practiced mana conservation here, and spell conservation there, same coin, different sides.

There have been many times, especially solo, when I am left half way through a mission and have no power left. My suggestion would allow me to wait a while then continue. Left alone, I'm basically screwed. As I say, other classes that don't rely on power as much are not so hindered. I'm not looking for something unbalanced, I don't think.

Actually, you are. Cuz mages will not be as dependant on a party EVER. Why bring atank or a cleric if I could stand around and get my mana back? As I suggested above, bring a party, a cleric with DV hireling, or get the spells that allow you to melee even with a 8 STR.

[maliusz]

Since shrines reset on normal, this is already in the game to a certain extent. Casters who do a lot of soloing learn to kill/sneak to the first shrine and use that as a base camp to clear out the rest of the quest (or get to the next shrine). Just wait until your caster gets to the mid levels, they can be very powerful group contributors (and soloers played right).

[pasterqb]

There are already so many ways to regenerate sp.

- Torc
- Conc opp
- abbot gloves
- int yugo pot
- ss ring
- bauble
- korthos neck :)
- mnemonic potions
- ...

Who knows, maybe there is something in the guild ship perks as well.

lol I was waiting for someone to post this. With conc opp and torc you literally have infinite sp jus takes tome which is exactly what the op wants if I read correctly. Which makes me wonder why he suggested something already in game. I can just go afk while a single archer or group is shooting at me doing maybe 3 dmg tops and come back to a good chunk of my exp back. Also read a great idea posted here about using the leviks shield to regen sp while conserving it too.

But OP Casters start out slow but pick up in the end like every single game I have ever played so be patient. You can even solo epic later on If you wanted. Would love to see a melee do that. And don't expect ddo to be pnp because it's not. Similiar but not exactly the same. Also I don't see the point in playing an MMO alone.

[Aesop]

While I don't think this idea would fly it does bring up an interesting point that has been discussed in the past.

I always hate "arcane escort" and feel that at all times all characters should have the ability to participate in a battle.

However unlimited SP by Regeneration is not the way I'd want to go about it.

In one of the WotC sanctioned guides are a number of feats that would serve this purpose quite well and have been mentioned and brought up in the past most notably by A_D and myself.

Reserve Feats.

These feats grant certain magical abilities that can be used once per round and while not as effective as Spells do allow a caster to continue to participate in their specific capacity.

There is a mini Fireball like ability mini lightning bolt some CC effects and some summoning effects even some minor buffing effects. There are also certain healing ones as well.


I always thought that there should be some basic effects like this available to casters, because of the nature of the game.

These effects would not replace spells but would allow casters to participate in more battles and conserve spell points for major confrontations and need

Aesop

[Rasczak]

I cannot agree with this.

Ungeared casters can still do most quests on elite without chugging pots if they play properly.

A wizard who runs into quests and gives every single mob a firewall of their own may rejoice at a change like this but it's an o go for me.

No way I would agree to this unless osmeone had to somehow come up with some reason that makes sense. Other than that it's just a way to make a player's life easier because they can't be bothered to learn how to play better.

[Dragonhyde]

My cleric(20) uses scrolls when out of mana which is rarely and my wizard(20) has debuff scrolls but also uses a crossbow which while not a ton of dps at least its up to 20ish pts per hit. My bards all have some form of backup range or scrolls as well

[SisAmethyst]

These feats grant certain magical abilities that can be used once per round and while not as effective as Spells do allow a caster to continue to participate in their specific capacity.

There is a mini Fireball like ability mini lightning bolt some CC effects and some summoning effects even some minor buffing effects. There are also certain healing ones as well.

Well, you have that and it is named 'eternal Wand of ____' ... including fire, acid, heal. Yes, but they go a long way to help a lot to conserve Mana if you quests solo, and even for self Healing on a caster (theer are good reasons for taking UMD). Also for soloing a Quest one has sometimes to completly rethink the tactics as when in a group, but on the other side due to dungeon scaling a quest in solo is sometimes more easy then as a duo or full party. Depending on the Quest it just may take some more time.

To the OP ... additional to what was already said before I want to give you some links, as if you want to solo Quests as a Mage, take a look at the excelent Videos made by MrCow Diaries of a True Reincarnate (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=226992&highlight=Diaries+True+Reincarnate) and take a look in the Wizards Handbook (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=116560) of Vienemen.

And if you think its impossible to solo certain things as a Caster due to limited amount of Mana than take a look at this Sorc: Solo Epic Deamon Queen (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=238096) (with great respect to Yoduus)

PS: I rarely use a Fireball as the chance to miss or that the mob save is way to high, better use a ray (niacs, fire, prismatic, disintegrate, ...) or a strategic placed firewall and tumble around till all is well cooked ;)

[Mojo]

Remember the goal is to give spellcasters some kind of ability to continue fighting once they're out of power. Having just a staff or some such just doesn't cut it.

Consider. There's a mission in the market where you go in to rescue a pair (I think, it's been a while) of Trolls. This mission takes you through a veritable army of human warriors, spellcasters and undead, and that's BEFORE the Trolls. On my way to the first Troll, I used all my spell points. I had no choice. The enemies were resisting my charms, and killing my hellhound, so I was forced to use spells to defeat them. Now, I have no magic, no armour, no hit points (to speak of) and no weaponry (I used 500 bolts up fighting once I was out of magic...). There was literally no way I was going to be able to continue the mission, and the second part of the mission had at least the same foes as the first. I don't know what was next, I had to abandon it.

If I'd been using a Paladin, I could keep fighting. True, once his health was gone, he'd be unable to continue, but the same is true of the Wizard, and the Wizard hasn't the tools to either do or survive damage.

Think of it this way: The Wizard's weapons and armour are his spells, but unlike other classes, he can run out of them. The Paladin will have weapons and armour for the duration of the mission.

Is there another way, I wonder? If a very slow regeneration is not acceptable, what about a 0 cost spell, a "Cantrip," or some such?

[Mojo]

Ah, yes. An Eternal Wand is a godsend. However, they're pretty rare, in my (admittedly limited) experience.

[Jasam01]

I think the simple answer to your senario, is that either your built very wrong, or very underleveled, and such a situation shouldn't be coming about.

And theres still the possibility of a hireling to get you out of it.

And like the others said. Theres always 'equip armour, masters touch + battle axe'.

[Lorz]

Op and others here that keep saying a caster is powerless once out of mana.

Obviously your not running with the right kinda caster. I know many that can intim and take a heck of a beating. Seems to me some folks here need to learn a caster is more than just a mana user....some of them can hit plenty hard.

And no to mana regen over time in quest. If they do that might as well just make casting without mana at all.

/silly easy buttons...making worse players worse.

[Kriogen]

I think that DDO will at, at one point, have mana regeneration.

Since day 1 (2006) DDO did got:
- Smite regeneration
- Song regeneration
- HP regeneration via rare/raid items
- Mana regeneration via rare/raid items
- did I missed something?

In U5 there will also be:
- cheap HP regeneration (Radiant Server)

You see, there is a slow progression:
- rare Jungle cloak/jerky --> easier to get enhancement
- rare Torc/Coop/Bauble --> ????

Devs are just slow, carefull, because they are affraid that old vets would go beserk. But old vets are no longer as important for revenue as before because of big influx of new players. It looks like this new players are from generic MMOs where this regeneration is standard. Now they can do more proper generic MMO HP regeneration (RS). One day there will also be be proper Mana regeneration.

Soon(tm).

[Hokiewa]

Remember the goal is to give spellcasters some kind of ability to continue fighting once they're out of power. Having just a staff or some such just doesn't cut it.

Consider. There's a mission in the market where you go in to rescue a pair (I think, it's been a while) of Trolls. This mission takes you through a veritable army of human warriors, spellcasters and undead, and that's BEFORE the Trolls. On my way to the first Troll, I used all my spell points. I had no choice. The enemies were resisting my charms, and killing my hellhound, so I was forced to use spells to defeat them. Now, I have no magic, no armour, no hit points (to speak of) and no weaponry (I used 500 bolts up fighting once I was out of magic...). There was literally no way I was going to be able to continue the mission, and the second part of the mission had at least the same foes as the first. I don't know what was next, I had to abandon it.

If I'd been using a Paladin, I could keep fighting. True, once his health was gone, he'd be unable to continue, but the same is true of the Wizard, and the Wizard hasn't the tools to either do or survive damage.

Think of it this way: The Wizard's weapons and armour are his spells, but unlike other classes, he can run out of them. The Paladin will have weapons and armour for the duration of the mission.

Is there another way, I wonder? If a very slow regeneration is not acceptable, what about a 0 cost spell, a "Cantrip," or some such?

This was a solo trip? Without the list of sp generating equipment, no pots; it's actually even easier and less painful to have virtually unlimited sp when soloing in non-raids. You are just not thinking it through.

[cpito]

Here comes the elitist jerk in me...

Seriously? You have difficulty in getting through Caged Trolls (a house p quest, btw) and instead of rethinking your tactics and trying a different approach, you come to the conclusion that mana regen is the answer? Really?

This game was designed primarily for group based play and while that doesn't mean people shouldn't solo, it does mean that soloists will often have to come up with imaginative tactics to complete a quest.

[Noctus]

What do you think?


No.

Its 100% against the D&D spirit.

Learn your resource management.

[flynnjsw]

Just NO...

That is all I have to say about that...

[Visty]

Ah, yes. An Eternal Wand is a godsend. However, they're pretty rare, in my (admittedly limited) experience.

jep, they are so rare that you get one even after the tutorial

[gurslak]

jep, they are so rare that you get one even after the tutorial

Another one upon completion of Catacombs, so thats two by the time your level 3-4 :)

[Kelavam]

I am a level 13, almost 14 wizard. There have been some occassions, though rare, that I have run out of mana. Granted, it takes a bit of work to learn how to exist in a dungeon and not blow your mana, but it can be done. I admit to being a little bit of a credit card hero in the fact that I do spend some of my DDO points on mana pots (I still have 47 of the last 50 I bought a month and a half ago - but they are nice to have in a pinch).. Learning where the rest shrines are and conserving them (in hard or higher) is what makes a good spellcaster. I see too many people in PUG groups that will hit a shrine as soon as they see it, even if they have over 1/2 mana. You can always come back to it, but if it's usable once, why waste it??

That is a gripe I have (and maybe I have just not found them yet). But why can you buy potions to do pretty much anything a spell can do, but you cannot buy (with gold) mana pots? I do not care if they make them horribly expensive, but at least give the mage a chance to buy the potions to help them survive. There are healing potions your tanks can buy, but why not mana pots? Of course, that also leads to a potential unbalance to the game as well, as a mage who has gold (and let's face it, it comes really easy at later levels, so regardless of price, we'd all stock up..). Nevermind, I do not want mana pots.

I think it's a good player than can take a spellcaster through a long dungeon and still come out with spell points. It takes a good party to help those spellcasters conserve the mana too. Too many reckless players can run a cleric out of mana (but of course, we still have healing pots) - and a few of the PUG parties I have been with have been just terrible on the tank end - I blow through mana just trying to save everyone's butt, and we've barely entered the dungeon.

There are a lot of green players out there - I admit it took me some getting used to also, compared to previous games I have played. And yes, while regenning your hps and mana while you stand around has been a standard, I prefer this concept. It's the only game I have played where your hps and mana do not recharge over time.. I think it makes the standard MMOer either become a better player, or, as I have read in the forums lately, a whiner.

Just my 2 cents.

-Dollen

[r3dl4nce]

But why can you buy potions to do pretty much anything a spell can do, but you cannot buy (with gold) mana pots?

You can. Auction House

[Darkrok]

Reroll

And I don't mean that in a rude way - I mean that in a helpful way. If your character can't do anything when the sp's are gone at the level that you'd be running Caged Trolls then it's time to reroll.

For a 28-point build caster you can start with a 14str, 14(16 if warforged)con, and an 18 in your casting stat. You get Master's Touch to let you use any martial weapon. You get bull's strength to make that 14str an 18str. You get heroism to give you an addition +2 to hit. You get blur to make the enemies miss you as well as resist energy to mitigate damage from casters/traps. And don't forget - all of these are available from wands, many of which you'll get as an end reward from quests.

I almost exclusively melee'd on my Warforged rogue/wizard until level 8 (1 rogue/7 wizard) when I got firewall. I never ran out of sp's because I never used them other than to cast extended buffs. And back on that issue on end-reward wands...USE THEM!!! I get force missile wands all the time and they can be highly effective for some additional damage.

Finally, back on the melee end of things...about the time that the effectiveness of bull's str/heroism/master's touch starts to wane things like paralyzing/vorpal/banishing/disrupting/smiting become available as well as divine power clickies. Getting a good set of weapons with these effects as well as some divine power items makes you a decent additional melee in a group. Without power attack and with a 20str (running divine power) you'll never do as much damage as the other melee in the group. However, you can roll 20's or have mobs fail their saves just as often as everyone else that's using thf.

[Kelavam]

You can. Auction House

I was actually for them at one point, but after spending the last week rummaging through the forums, I am actually against them. But it was something I noticed that you could not buy from a vendor. I was attempting to make a point. Fail?

I have checked occassionally at the auction house. Not sure what server you are on, but paying 1 million gold for a greater mana pot is not my idea of cost effective.. I get by with the 500 ddo points I get a month. :)

[r3dl4nce]

You said

I do not care if they make them horribly expensive,
Well, in AH there are Greater Mnemonic at some super stupid horrible expensive price.

Or, you can do just like me, I'm collecting Mana Pots with every character everytime I have one in a quest reward/chest. Now on my FvS I have more than 100 Greater Mnemonic, used perhaps 1 or 2 to remove feeblemind

[EddieB_TBC]

Um, learn to play your caster better is a better solution for everyone. If turbine changed the whole premise of how casters function then 3 months after "small SP regen" is implemented there will be people whining about it not being fast enough, and well then eventually you might as well be playing that other game where sp and hp regen continually while you walk up to the mob, turn on attack, and go get a soda while waiting for the result. :(

I mean come on man... caged trolls? If you have to, learn the quest on solo/casual where there are handhold shrines that regen what like every 5 minutes and the mobs are laying down in front of you waiting to get killed. Figure out what you are fighting, what spells you need to have loaded to affect them, and then go back and do n/h/e for your real exp... and as the mobs get harder to kill keep an open mind to having to adjust or change your spells or tactics to be successful. And learning the quest with a melee isn't the same thing because given enough CSW pots and wands (i.e. consumables) you can usually eventually battle your way through most stuff with all but the most pathetic builds.

Casters get resisted... and to try again eats away at your SP. So understand your targets weakness and pick spells that are most effective and least likely to be ignored. For example human and elven casters are not usually real high STR builds so web works while they have higher WILL saves, or depending on race even outright spell resistance, so mind affecting things like hypno don't work as well. And while niacs in a wand usually isn't so great, scorching ray typically hits pretty hard with NO save and magic missle or force missles do full damage on most everything (unless it has the ability to cast the shield spell.)

There are, as far as I know, eternal wands for fire, acid, and magic missle which, other than the one from Korthos, are bound to account. So if you have the shared bank tab feature you can take them as rewards on other toons and pass to your caster if they can't earn them for themselves. There are also some quarterstaffs that summon lvl2 and 3 pets as clickies.

If you are going to solo a caster on low to mid level quests then make sure you have a few offensive wands with for when you run out of SP, have scrolls for some basic buffs, have masters touch prepped and some kind of backup weapon like a fire or acid of pure good quarterstaff or greatsword, and a stack of barkskin, heroism, haste and csw pots for when you need to go melee to cover the last little bit of ground (one can hope) to the shrine. Using crowd control like hypno, web, hold, etc. BEFORE you hit 0 SP and use junk wands or melee to kill them is more work than just wandering around kiting w/fireball (like some sort of idiotic FPS) and then blaming the game for your SP issues, but it can get the job done. ;)

Also remember that many hireling clerics have divine vitality, some of them have quite a few, which is like having a little backup battery you can park at the quest entrance and pull forward when you need them. Then if you do eventually have to go melee you can pull them forward to help. You will also find that many mobs initially aggro on the hireling so let them engage and you get bonuses to-hit because you swing at them from behind.

:D

[Kelavam]

Sorry, I meant to make mention of them. I keep a good supply of wands and scrolls for those moments that I am running low or run out of mana. Sadly, there are PUG groups out there that require more spells cast than others.

Anyways, The wands are all over the place. Vendors, marketplace. You can find yourself a wand to cover your butt when mana runs out. Same with scrolls.

Any chance of scroll cases coming soon? Mine tend to take up a few slots..

[Wizard_Zero]

If you spend time gearing up a caster you will already have that stuff. You got the Torc, Eardweller Eggs, Vile. With those, you will have a nice stream of mana. Game changer? No (WF Torc is another topic).

[Aristalla]

This has probably been stated before, but, on my wiz, I ALWAYS keep a few nuke-type wands on me for sp conservation and emergencies.
Problem solved.

[Internetisrsbsn]

Remember the goal is to give spellcasters some kind of ability to continue fighting once they're out of power. Having just a staff or some such just doesn't cut it.

Consider. There's a mission in the market where you go in to rescue a pair (I think, it's been a while) of Trolls. This mission takes you through a veritable army of human warriors, spellcasters and undead, and that's BEFORE the Trolls. On my way to the first Troll, I used all my spell points. I had no choice. The enemies were resisting my charms, and killing my hellhound, so I was forced to use spells to defeat them. Now, I have no magic, no armour, no hit points (to speak of) and no weaponry (I used 500 bolts up fighting once I was out of magic...). There was literally no way I was going to be able to continue the mission, and the second part of the mission had at least the same foes as the first. I don't know what was next, I had to abandon it.

If I'd been using a Paladin, I could keep fighting. True, once his health was gone, he'd be unable to continue, but the same is true of the Wizard, and the Wizard hasn't the tools to either do or survive damage.

Think of it this way: The Wizard's weapons and armour are his spells, but unlike other classes, he can run out of them. The Paladin will have weapons and armour for the duration of the mission.

Is there another way, I wonder? If a very slow regeneration is not acceptable, what about a 0 cost spell, a "Cantrip," or some such?

Don't solo. There, I solved your problem.

[Aashrym]

I imagine it's been suggested before, but I thought I'd bring it up in case it hadn't.

What would people say to allowing power (mana) to regenerate slowly while IN quests (ie. without needing a shrine). That's JUST power, not health. For that you would need a shrine.

Why, you ask? Well, it seems to me that pure spellcasters are at a significant disadvantage. When their power runs out, they're basically incapable of doing anything. A Wizard with no power is just a wimp with a staff. Other classes that don't rely as heavily on power are still able to carry on. Healing potions and so forth abound, and they usually have access to heavy armour and weapons. Casters are stuck with little chance to succeed shoudl they run out of power.

Thus, I suggest this. A slow (VERY slow - slower than in town) regeneration of power. You'd still be much faster going to a shrine or using a potion, if you're fortunate enough to get one, but on those occasions when one is not available, you will be able to continue the quest if you have some patience.

What do you think?

That would encourage parties to sit and wait for the regen and be very boring. There are ways to get SP back already.

This has also been stated but I'll add it again for reinforcement: Master's Touch and various buffs, use extend. Extend for 10 SP is cheaper than recasting most buffs, it will save SP.

Pull out your weapon using masters touch and blur, bull strength, bear endurance, heroism, rage, all provide benefits at low SP consumption.

[MeToo]

The game for casters is about spell point conservation. Don't waste spells on trash mobs that can be easily fought without resources. Buff, haste, sit back and let the melees enjoy themselves. You can snipe the occasional troublesome caster and provide damage against earth elementals and rust monsters. You can charm a few monsters here and there to minimize damage to the group. If you learn to do this very sparingly and only when necessary, you'll find that you can keep your SP potion needs to a minimum.

Make sure you select the Archivist's Necklace from Korthos Island for a little SP boost each rest. I still have that on my level 19 wizard. You can get SP regenerating items like the Torc from the Demon Queen raid or craft a Concordant Opposition item (as well as exceptional spell point item) in the Shroud.

The new Radiant Servant prestige enhancement coming soon to clerics near you is what you're looking for. A friendly cleric can give you spell points with their divine vitality uses of turn undead and, with the new enhancement available as early as level 6, those turns regenerate - 1 every 2 minutes. It might be excruciatingly slow for a well equipped party who would rather just buy and chug the mnemonics, but a patient one who just needs that last bit of oomph to complete a long quest will be able to sit back and recharge a bit as you suggest.
Ideally, casters are a force multiplier in a party with others who focus on melee. 3 fighters and a cooperating caster should be more powerful than 4 fighters or 4 casters.

If you must solo, Miranda Kelven is a handy level 12 cleric hireling with 10 Divine Vitalities per shrine. ~3600 gp is not too expensive compared to mnemonics and useful for almost anything except raiding up through Gianthold. If you're careful about staying in a wilderness area, you can keep her more than an hour.

[PyrosianFelicity]

Carry some wands.


Sure, SP-regen items and potions are great, but they're also a pain to grind for and aren't feasible at low levels. Once you know a quest you can usually get by without them, especially if you're in a good group, but at low levels for a new player that doesn't know the quest, it can be rough.


Trying to solo a quest you don't know as a caster is just asking for trouble. The first time it's better to go with a group to get an idea of what kind of conservation you'll need to do, then you can have at it again on your own if you like.


Also: Carry some wands. Especially at that level, they can help. Splurge some gold at one of the magic shops and get some Fireball or Lightning Bolt wands. I always carried 3 or 4 Lightning Bolt wands when learning the quests so that I could still contribute and zap some things if I messed up and ran out of SP.
Get some wands, they can help.

[Mesana]

Remember the goal is to give spellcasters some kind of ability to continue fighting once they're out of power. Having just a staff or some such just doesn't cut it.

Consider. There's a mission in the market where you go in to rescue a pair (I think, it's been a while) of Trolls. This mission takes you through a veritable army of human warriors, spellcasters and undead, and that's BEFORE the Trolls. On my way to the first Troll, I used all my spell points. I had no choice. The enemies were resisting my charms, and killing my hellhound, so I was forced to use spells to defeat them. Now, I have no magic, no armour, no hit points (to speak of) and no weaponry (I used 500 bolts up fighting once I was out of magic...). There was literally no way I was going to be able to continue the mission, and the second part of the mission had at least the same foes as the first. I don't know what was next, I had to abandon it.

If I'd been using a Paladin, I could keep fighting. True, once his health was gone, he'd be unable to continue, but the same is true of the Wizard, and the Wizard hasn't the tools to either do or survive damage.

Think of it this way: The Wizard's weapons and armour are his spells, but unlike other classes, he can run out of them. The Paladin will have weapons and armour for the duration of the mission.

Is there another way, I wonder? If a very slow regeneration is not acceptable, what about a 0 cost spell, a "Cantrip," or some such?

I must say, I was caught by the idea of adding the Cantrip spell - but not for regaining spell points. A pick-list of spells similar to the one you get with the box of chocolates. Although, it would have to cost more than 0 spell points and it would have to be less effective than a level 1 spell. But, would it be worth the spell points used to cast it at that point? Hmm.

[Cyr]

lol,

Why don't we just rename the game DDO: WoW Lite and get it over with.

[reddoormedia]

I suspect most folks who don't like the idea of SP regen are long ago leveled up vets, who grouped their way to the top and are now ****ed at the thought of new players having an easier time because they didn't need any POTS. I'd like to know how many vet's have soloed to 20. Ahem with no POTS of course.

I have played every major MMO. I have become a solo player at this stage of life ..though when younger that wasn't the case. But to continue to have any chance to play it's the style that works for me. I enjoy it. It works.

Solo (sorc's) players are severely gimped because the game wasn't designed for soloing. (I was here at the beginning and found that out quickly.) POTS are the only viable way. All of these so called suggestions are ridiculous for a solo player. In a group they make perfect sense.

I feel Turbine is dragging their feet on this issue since SP POTS are probably their biggest seller in the store so I don't fel very confident that they will address this.

I just want to be able to log in and play this tune. There should be some reasonable way to do that that doesn't cost $.

[LunaCee]

Or just learn to do it the way some of us "newer" players learned to do so... buff up and melee until you have the SP pool for consistent casting throughout most quests. And if you build your character to allow for at least basic melee, when you get low on SP even at later levels you can hit those few buffs as your SP is bottoming out and play in melee the same way a rogue does. Carefully, and picking when and where you smack things to avoid getting aggro or cleave spammed.

[Gol]

What would people say to allowing power (mana) to regenerate slowly while IN quests (ie. without needing a shrine). That's JUST power, not health. For that you would need a shrine.I don't play WoW, nor do I want this game to become WoW. If you like WoW, or want to play D&D with the WoW flavor, either play D&D 4th edition or play WoW, but please, leave DDO the hell alone.

[Cyr]

I suspect most folks who don't like the idea of SP regen are long ago leveled up vets, who grouped their way to the top and are now ****ed at the thought of new players having an easier time because they didn't need any POTS. I'd like to know how many vet's have soloed to 20. Ahem with no POTS of course.

I have played every major MMO. I have become a solo player at this stage of life ..though when younger that wasn't the case. But to continue to have any chance to play it's the style that works for me. I enjoy it. It works.

Solo (sorc's) players are severely gimped because the game wasn't designed for soloing. (I was here at the beginning and found that out quickly.) POTS are the only viable way. All of these so called suggestions are ridiculous for a solo player. In a group they make perfect sense.

I feel Turbine is dragging their feet on this issue since SP POTS are probably their biggest seller in the store so I don't fel very confident that they will address this.

I just want to be able to log in and play this tune. There should be some reasonable way to do that that doesn't cost $.

If you had been around you would now know that soloing when the game first came out and soloing now is completely different. Some huge changes went into the game that made solo arcane vastly easier. These include dungeon scaling, the re-work of the meta-magic system, spell damage boost pots adding 75% to the damage of your spells, hirelings, and casual mode. I am very sure I have missed more then a few, but those are some highlights.

Arcane and divine solo play is very common in game right now. In fact, many vets solo these toons as they level because it is faster.

[flynnjsw]

I suspect most folks who don't like the idea of SP regen are long ago leveled up vets, who grouped their way to the top and are now ****ed at the thought of new players having an easier time because they didn't need any POTS. I'd like to know how many vet's have soloed to 20. Ahem with no POTS of course.

I have played every major MMO. I have become a solo player at this stage of life ..though when younger that wasn't the case. But to continue to have any chance to play it's the style that works for me. I enjoy it. It works.

Solo (sorc's) players are severely gimped because the game wasn't designed for soloing. (I was here at the beginning and found that out quickly.) POTS are the only viable way. All of these so called suggestions are ridiculous for a solo player. In a group they make perfect sense.

I feel Turbine is dragging their feet on this issue since SP POTS are probably their biggest seller in the store so I don't fel very confident that they will address this.

I just want to be able to log in and play this tune. There should be some reasonable way to do that that doesn't cost $.

I said no because it would be going even farther away from PnP. It is far enough away as it is, no need to make it worse.

[Trillea]

While I don't think this idea would fly it does bring up an interesting point that has been discussed in the past.

I always hate "arcane escort" and feel that at all times all characters should have the ability to participate in a battle.

However unlimited SP by Regeneration is not the way I'd want to go about it.

In one of the WotC sanctioned guides are a number of feats that would serve this purpose quite well and have been mentioned and brought up in the past most notably by A_D and myself.

Reserve Feats.

These feats grant certain magical abilities that can be used once per round and while not as effective as Spells do allow a caster to continue to participate in their specific capacity.

There is a mini Fireball like ability mini lightning bolt some CC effects and some summoning effects even some minor buffing effects. There are also certain healing ones as well.


I always thought that there should be some basic effects like this available to casters, because of the nature of the game.

These effects would not replace spells but would allow casters to participate in more battles and conserve spell points for major confrontations and need

Aesop

Instead of the reserve feats, they use the eternal wands. Since those regen on their own (no shrine needed) I say that there is no need for the reserve feats currently.

[Fomori]

I suspect most folks who don't like the idea of SP regen are long ago leveled up vets, who grouped their way to the top and are now ****ed at the thought of new players having an easier time because they didn't need any POTS. I'd like to know how many vet's have soloed to 20. Ahem with no POTS of course.
This isnt about pots, its about learning to play within your OWN resources. Even new melee characters should learn that. The quickest way in DDO to learn to be self sufficient is to have to manage a "blue bar".

Also the vets, as you say, started on this game because it was "DnD Online". We played this game specifically because it wasnt like the other MMO's with; "SP/HP regen", "end game mentality", "gear grinds", etc... they are slowly removing what makes this unique and hybridizing it like the other MMO's. That is why they are losing old players and gaining new ones. The ones that passed in the first place because it was something different that what they expected.

We have very few "DnD-centric" things left in DnD Online so as they become scarcer the community will cling tighter to those items.

[Hokiewa]

I suspect most folks who don't like the idea of SP regen are long ago leveled up vets, who grouped their way to the top and are now ****ed at the thought of new players having an easier time because they didn't need any POTS. I'd like to know how many vet's have soloed to 20. Ahem with no POTS of course.

I have played every major MMO. I have become a solo player at this stage of life ..though when younger that wasn't the case. But to continue to have any chance to play it's the style that works for me. I enjoy it. It works.

Solo (sorc's) players are severely gimped because the game wasn't designed for soloing. (I was here at the beginning and found that out quickly.) POTS are the only viable way. All of these so called suggestions are ridiculous for a solo player. In a group they make perfect sense.

I feel Turbine is dragging their feet on this issue since SP POTS are probably their biggest seller in the store so I don't fel very confident that they will address this.

I just want to be able to log in and play this tune. There should be some reasonable way to do that that doesn't cost $.

This is the most absurd tirade yet on this subject. Solo sorc's are incredibly easy to play, incredibly easy to rack up capped plat in a week or two. This game has been made FAR easier then it's inception for a solo arcane, if you can't recognize that, you are not a qualified player to speak of the solo capablities of any class let alone a sorc. You are flat out wrong.

[DoctorWhofan]

This is the most absurd tirade yet on this subject. Solo sorc's are incredibly easy to play, incredibly easy to rack up capped plat in a week or two. This game has been made FAR easier then it's inception for a solo arcane, if you can't recognize that, you are not a qualified player to speak of the solo capablities of any class let alone a sorc. You are flat out wrong.

agreed. Sorcerers are NOT gimped!

[Hokiewa]

If you had been around you would now know that soloing when the game first came out and soloing now is completely different. Some huge changes went into the game that made solo arcane vastly easier. These include dungeon scaling, the re-work of the meta-magic system, spell damage boost pots adding 75% to the damage of your spells, hirelings, and casual mode. I am very sure I have missed more then a few, but those are some highlights.

Arcane and divine solo play is very common in game right now. In fact, many vets solo these toons as they level because it is faster.

Bingo! Far more pleasant then I, lol. If you can't solo as an arcane at this point, then frankly....you should group.....always....

[reddoormedia]

soled to 15 so far. Get off your high horse btw, it's a game.

[Hokiewa]

agreed. Sorcerers are NOT gimped!

Though I wouldn't mind seeing the pres for them.....at least one....please? :D

[Memnir]

What would people say to allowing power (mana) to regenerate slowly while IN quests (ie. without needing a shrine).

What do you think?No.

[Hokiewa]

soled to 15 so far. Get off your high horse btw, it's a game.

Lmao, you're the one that claimed sorcs were severly gimped. You haven't addressed any of the points countering that useless tirade. It's quite obvious you have no clue.

[Gol]

Lmao, you're the one that claimed sorcs were severly gimped. You haven't addressed any of the points countering that useless tirade. It's quite obvious you have no clue.
... and that he's earned quite a bit of neg rep as his bar went from green, to red, to gray/disabled.

[Hokiewa]

... and that he's earned quite a bit of neg rep as his bar went from green, to red, to gray/disabled.

He's the same poster who advocated an easily obtained item for solo/casual players like himself that had 3-5 clickies a day of full sp restoration. Virtually every non-deleted post he/she has made has been crying out this.

It's decidely off-topic, and I judge myself guilty.:D

[reddoormedia]

listen carefully .... I said Sorc's that solo were gimped because they need to use POT's. Obviously when they have SP they are not gimped and why I am at 15 with mine.

And in groups they are fine. Why is this so hard to admit?

You vet's are so full of yourselves. Why not try being civil sometime.

[DoctorWhofan]

listen carefully .... I said Sorc's that solo were gimped because they need to use POT's. Obviously when they have SP they are not gimped and why I am at 15 with mine.

And in groups they are fine. Why is this so hard to admit?

You vet's are so full of yourselves. Why not try being civil sometime.

Nope..mine NEVER used a pot. Have no clue why that makes them gimp. My clerics do use pots sometimes, does that make them gimp? If so, a list of characters needs to be issued so we know who not to heal.

[Hokiewa]

listen carefully .... I said Sorc's that solo were gimped because they need to use POT's. Obviously when they have SP they are not gimped and why I am at 15 with mine.

And in groups they are fine. Why is this so hard to admit?

You vet's are so full of yourselves. Why not try being civil sometime.

Listen to what? Lol, again....A sorc playing solo has ZERO need for pots. A wiz playing solo has ZERO need for pots. The mechanics are there for an inexperianced, non-twinked arcane to have virtually unlimited SPs with ZERO gear.

When you quit making ridiculous claims, over and over again, perhaps someone would be civil enough to help you out. I'm not civil to repetitive behavior when you've been corrected dozens of times.

[Cyr]

listen carefully .... I said Sorc's that solo were gimped because they need to use POT's. Obviously when they have SP they are not gimped and why I am at 15 with mine.

And in groups they are fine. Why is this so hard to admit?

You vet's are so full of yourselves. Why not try being civil sometime.

Okay so you have to down sp pots all the time. Yeah we believe you that you have issues personally playing a solo sorc. We are just telling you that plenty of players love soloing their sorcs as they level and do not have issues. In fact, solo arcanes and divines are favorites for solo toons. Many other players experiences point to the direct opposite of your viewpoint.

[Memnir]

You vet's are so full of yourselves. Why not try being civil sometime.Being right is not being full of ourselves - it's being right.

Perhaps you need to follow your own advice, and listen up.

[cpito]

soled to 15 so far. Get off your high horse btw, it's a game.

Who came riding in here on a high horse practically proclaiming to know all about a sorc's solo ability? Some consider knocking people out of their saddles to be a fun game too.

[Mojo]

Well, I wasn't expecting the storm of building hostility. It was just a random idea I thought might make the game a little more enjoyable. Let me address a few things before I leave the thread behind.

Simply saying "No" doesn't really tell us anything. It's dismissive and doesn't add any information to the discussion.

I have not ever played WoW, and have little interest in doing so. This suggestion has nothing to do with WoW.

I have been here since beta (on and off), and I've been playing D&D for 30 years. I do know something of what I speak. I know full well "how to play" so telling me otherwise is merely dismissive. The thread isn't about any specific difficulties I may be having, it's about the IDEA I posted.

I appreciate that the idea might be thought of as "against the D&D spirit," but it seems to me that there is a lot already in the game that is. Consider, in a real game of D&D, I could rest wherever I want. The shrine mechanic is exclusive to DDO. The game has made a lot of changes, I don't see this being a big enough one for so much resistance.

I didn't realize an Eternal Wand was given out in the tutorial, it wasn't when I started. That alone could help a lot.


At any rate, I'm not seeing any real support for the idea, so I'll let the subject drop.

[Hokiewa]

Well, I wasn't expecting the storm of building hostility. It was just a random idea I thought might make the game a little more enjoyable. Let me address a few things before I leave the thread behind.

Simply saying "No" doesn't really tell us anything. It's dismissive and doesn't add any information to the discussion.

I have not ever played WoW, and have little interest in doing so. This suggestion has nothing to do with WoW.

I have been here since beta (on and off), and I've been playing D&D for 30 years. I do know something of what I speak. I know full well "how to play" so telling me otherwise is merely dismissive. The thread isn't about any specific difficulties I may be having, it's about the IDEA I posted.

I appreciate that the idea might be thought of as "against the D&D spirit," but it seems to me that there is a lot already in the game that is. Consider, in a real game of D&D, I could rest wherever I want. The shrine mechanic is exclusive to DDO. The game has made a lot of changes, I don't see this being a big enough one for so much resistance.

I didn't realize an Eternal Wand was given out in the tutorial, it wasn't when I started. That alone could help a lot.


At any rate, I'm not seeing any real support for the idea, so I'll let the subject drop.

I apologize for derailing somewhat. Though you know how to play, you can't state that you know how to play a wizard solo well. Don't take that as an attack, there are plenty of helpful tips in this thread. Send me a pm if you are still having difficulty and I will try to explain to you.

[Seikojin]

I don't agree that mana should regen on it's own.

I know how to play casters to the point where mana is almost never an issue. And even where it is an issue, I never thought that my mana should regen.

Soloing caged trolls would be tough on normal+ with an equal levelled caster. You would have to really manage your aoe types really well to not run out. Or have a dv hireling.

Like others have said, DnD and DDO are both group oriented games. The basis of CR was a party of four composed of a fighter, cleric, wizard, and a rogue. The base four classes. DDO is a bit different, but the framework of the CR is pretty much the same. A single lvl 5 going against a cr 5 should expect a challenge. In melee it would be misses and getting hit often. In casting, it would take more spells to conqure.

[DoctorWhofan]

I apologize for derailing somewhat. Though you know how to play, you can't state that you know how to play a wizard solo well. Don't take that as an attack, there are plenty of helpful tips in this thread. Send me a pm if you are still having difficulty and I will try to explain to you.

agreed. It can be done very easily. there is alot of good advice in the thread.


And the No comments? This topic has been up every month for the last 10 months. People get tired of answering. Granted not right, but there it is.

[Seikojin]

Well, I wasn't expecting the storm of building hostility. It was just a random idea I thought might make the game a little more enjoyable. Let me address a few things before I leave the thread behind.

Simply saying "No" doesn't really tell us anything. It's dismissive and doesn't add any information to the discussion.

I have not ever played WoW, and have little interest in doing so. This suggestion has nothing to do with WoW.

I have been here since beta (on and off), and I've been playing D&D for 30 years. I do know something of what I speak. I know full well "how to play" so telling me otherwise is merely dismissive. The thread isn't about any specific difficulties I may be having, it's about the IDEA I posted.

I appreciate that the idea might be thought of as "against the D&D spirit," but it seems to me that there is a lot already in the game that is. Consider, in a real game of D&D, I could rest wherever I want. The shrine mechanic is exclusive to DDO. The game has made a lot of changes, I don't see this being a big enough one for so much resistance.

I didn't realize an Eternal Wand was given out in the tutorial, it wasn't when I started. That alone could help a lot.


At any rate, I'm not seeing any real support for the idea, so I'll let the subject drop.

To keep to your idea, the regenning of mana would seriously throw the balance out of proportion. They would have to reduce your SP by serious amounts in order to have a need for mana regen.

If they are going to change the spell balance, why not go all the way and just make it spells per rest and offer an alert raising camp option?

[Aesop]

Instead of the reserve feats, they use the eternal wands. Since those regen on their own (no shrine needed) I say that there is no need for the reserve feats currently.

I find having as a character option instead of as a Gear option to be a far superior option.

Eternal wands are fine and dandy you could do the same in PnP... but having it as a character option allows people to build a character instead of grinding for gear...

to me that's far and away preferable

Aesop

[Targoth1]

uh, hell no!

i'd say you get a caster up in the upteens (if you haven't already) and then we talk again.

beeing a spellcaster is all about effectivenes. conserve spellpoints. nuke when apropriate. run when apropriate. hide if needed.

Yes, like melee dps is not substantially higer and indefinitely sustainable.

I have a better idea, give the melee dps an endurance bar that only regenerates at shrines. Place the same limitations on the barbarians and tempest rangers that wizards live with every single day.

[Targoth1]

Who says that a wizard HAS to carry a staff, and can only kill with a spell? Probably the same that say clerics should only heal.

Um, I would say the wizards very low to hit chances, the fact that he's his primary stat offers zero bonuses to melee, having low hit points + low AC. All of these make a pure spellcaster a very poor canidate for melee. Slap on some armor and go to town you say? The wizard that spends valuable feats to gain heavy armor proficiency is not only stupid, but he's going to gimp his spellcasting. The kicker is, even with a full set of high end armor, he's still not going to have enough AC to matter.

As to your comment on firewalls hitting for 1000 points of damage, see the current Firewall thread for a wide variety of responses. One of the big ones is, a great many mobs, especially at end game, are immune to fire.

Another is, a barbarian with THF can hit a mob for 200+ a half dozen times between firewall tics, far exceeding the wizards dps while expending zero resources.

[Targoth1]

jep, they are so rare that you get one even after the tutorial

Yep, sure do, and it does right about the same dps as the +1 shortbow he got shortly thereafter. The thing here is, I can stack hundreds of arrows, but my wand runs out. I also have the UMD skill and the eternal wand of healing from the catacombs, its good for about 70 hp, over the course of several minutes of usage. A ring of trollish regeneration is more effective, at least it works while I'm busy running away.

Again, this is compared to all the THF melee running around at the same level I am, doing 10x my dps, with no fear of ever running out of the ability to swing their axes.

The one, and only, point in time that a caster is going to deal more damage than a melee is in the mid levels using wall of fire. Even then, you are facing a variety of mobs that are immune.

[Aashrym]

Um, I would say the wizards very low to hit chances, the fact that he's his primary stat offers zero bonuses to melee, having low hit points + low AC. All of these make a pure spellcaster a very poor canidate for melee. Slap on some armor and go to town you say? The wizard that spends valuable feats to gain heavy armor proficiency is not only stupid, but he's going to gimp his spellcasting. The kicker is, even with a full set of high end armor, he's still not going to have enough AC to matter.

As to your comment on firewalls hitting for 1000 points of damage, see the current Firewall thread for a wide variety of responses. One of the big ones is, a great many mobs, especially at end game, are immune to fire.

Another is, a barbarian with THF can hit a mob for 200+ a half dozen times between firewall tics, far exceeding the wizards dps while expending zero resources.

Oh, Doctorwhofan has it right, no doubt about it. (doubt and about are in my Canadian accent if anyone wants to read more into the lines ;) )

Don't blow SP trying to DPS and use other methods. Buffs are more SP efficient than debuffs, CC prevents damage and makes hitting easier, instadeath is more SP efficient than DPS spells. I don't know how many times 1 hold monster spell and dual wielding picks did damage cheaper than blasting damage spells.

A person needs to learn the mobs strengths and weaknesses, use appropriate spells, and not always rely on spells. Even stealthing can get you passed mobs faster than killing them sometimes, and without SP cost if you spend the points on it.

We don't need SP regen, we just need to manage our resources.

[Visty]

Yep, sure do, and it does right about the same dps as the +1 shortbow he got shortly thereafter. The thing here is, I can stack hundreds of arrows, but my wand runs out. I also have the UMD skill and the eternal wand of healing from the catacombs, its good for about 70 hp, over the course of several minutes of usage. A ring of trollish regeneration is more effective, at least it works while I'm busy running away.

Again, this is compared to all the THF melee running around at the same level I am, doing 10x my dps, with no fear of ever running out of the ability to swing their axes.

The one, and only, point in time that a caster is going to deal more damage than a melee is in the mid levels using wall of fire. Even then, you are facing a variety of mobs that are immune.

you can run out of arrows but the wands recharge

[Mojo]

I should say, it IS possible to "run out" of your axe or armour if it gets broken. It's just not very likely to happen.

[Targoth1]

you can run out of arrows but the wands recharge

1. Your not carrying enough arrows

2. Last I checked, the wands don't recharge that fast.

3. I burn through those wands, then switch over to ranged weapons just so I'm contributing something. Granted it is minimal. (Yes, I'm saving my spell points for key fights, this means I do very little up to that point.)

4. @ the person who suggested my spell points would be better spent on buffing the melee, that is the problem. Most people did not roll a wizard so they could stand back and buff the melee classes, they rolled a wizard so they could blow things up. If I wanted to be a buffer, bards are better at it.

[r3dl4nce]

4. @ the person who suggested my spell points would be better spent on buffing the melee, that is the problem. Most people did not roll a wizard so they could stand back and buff the melee classes, they rolled a wizard so they could blow things up. If I wanted to be a buffer, bards are better at it.

Roll a sorcerer. A wizard (high INT) NEED intelligence to be played. A sorcerer has aroud one third more SP than a wizard, so you can waste them.

[Uska]

1. Your not carrying enough arrows

2. Last I checked, the wands don't recharge that fast.

3. I burn through those wands, then switch over to ranged weapons just so I'm contributing something. Granted it is minimal. (Yes, I'm saving my spell points for key fights, this means I do very little up to that point.)

4. @ the person who suggested my spell points would be better spent on buffing the melee, that is the problem. Most people did not roll a wizard so they could stand back and buff the melee classes, they rolled a wizard so they could blow things up. If I wanted to be a buffer, bards are better at it.

as to 4 in some situations that is the best use for your sp as in some quests you wont kill anything with your sp but even then I wont tell anyone how to use their character myself.

[redspecter23]

Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but some of the newer eternal wands were added to address this issue. Basically gives a caster something to do if they run out of sp, and at lower levels, they can be quite handy. Perhaps an alternate approach would be to add some sort of permanent at will low level spell that can be cast repeatedly with and appropriate cooldown. It would serve a similar function to the eternal wands to give casters something to do when they are out of sp.

[Targoth1]

Roll a sorcerer. A wizard (high INT) NEED intelligence to be played. A sorcerer has aroud one third more SP than a wizard, so you can waste them.

I would say I preferred the ability to select from a large number of useful spells based upon the adventure at hand.

I would really like to be able to say that.

[Aashrym]

1. Your not carrying enough arrows

2. Last I checked, the wands don't recharge that fast.

3. I burn through those wands, then switch over to ranged weapons just so I'm contributing something. Granted it is minimal. (Yes, I'm saving my spell points for key fights, this means I do very little up to that point.)

4. @ the person who suggested my spell points would be better spent on buffing the melee, that is the problem. Most people did not roll a wizard so they could stand back and buff the melee classes, they rolled a wizard so they could blow things up. If I wanted to be a buffer, bards are better at it.

1. That's not the point. The point is arrows can run out, same as SP.

2. Carry more wands that recharge has the same effect as carrying more arrows in your comment 1. Carry more wands. ;)

3. That works. I do buff the party with my wizard (and myself often since i solo a lot), and use melee weapons (way more damage than missile weapons) and use those instead of blowing SP. If you are saving SP for the key fights you don't need SP regen. ;)

EDIT: Item 3 is dependent on whether I will start requiring resources from healers or not. I do use a bow when it's a better idea.

4. My suggestion including buffing yourself soloing. Wizards/Sorcerers do have reasonable buffs and more SP to do it, including spells for defense bards don't have. Last time I checked bards had a blue bar too so I didn't think this thread was specific to wizards ;). SP regen would affect wiz, sorc, bard, cleric, fvs, pally, and ranger. It takes away from advantage of having a higher SP total in the first place and could benefit classes that will still have better sustained DPS than the wiz.

If you play a wizard because you want to DPS you really might want to reconsider that choice. You are far better of using instant kill spells on your wizard than trying to compete with melee for DPS or sorc for burst damage.

I play a wizard too, because I like the planning process and making choices. Those choices include buffing, CC, damage, or whatever will work best at that time.

It seems contradictory to me that you are stating, "I would say I preferred the ability to select from a large number of useful spells based upon the adventure at hand," and then state you don't want to buff the party while arguing that other classes can do more damage and complaining you run out of SP. You appear to be focused on a single aspect of a class designed for more utility while stating you wanted more utility.

[twix]

/sarcasm Yeah this is just what the game needs.We needs this game to be much easier because its so difficult to strategically plan out how to use our spellpoints.



Im sorry but if you cant solo or group without taking pots or wishing your spellpoints regened then you did something wrong along the way.This is one of the coolest things about ddo.To excell at playing a magic based toon sometimes you have to know when and where to blow spellpoints.Do i run out of spellpoints sometimes ? Sure i do.But only at times when i made a mistake along the way,the other members of my group arent doing there part,or sometimes in epic quests.

This is what seperates the skilled players from the not so skilled players.If they implemented this it would detract from the amount of skill it would take to excell at playing your toon.They dumbed this game down a lot with free to play.If its still too hard then it might be time to try wow or maybe toon town.

[TommyBoy]

And what do you do if you run out of mana?



Well your caster has attack dice for a reason. There are wands, scrolls, and pots also. I'm sure if you tried really hard (or not really that hard) you can find something for him to do. Or maybe manage your mana better. I'm still thinking that they need to change it back to single use shrines on normal and put xp debt back in.

[Targoth1]

Well your caster has attack dice for a reason. There are wands, scrolls, and pots also. I'm sure if you tried really hard (or not really that hard) you can find something for him to do. Or maybe manage your mana better. I'm still thinking that they need to change it back to single use shrines on normal and put xp debt back in.

Why don't we start charging melee for their weapon usage at the same rates wizards pay for wands and scrolls.

Every 50 swings, hit or miss, you have to pay 5000 gold.

Pots? Sure, I'll just pry my wallet wide open for turbine so I can sustain my dps as the same level as the melee classes do. I have sp pots, very carefully hoarded sp pots, that are only used when absolutely necessary, on quests that we are in danger of failing and that have a substantial reward that I need.

Attack dice? Sure I can roll attacks all day long. 5% of them will even hit.

Manage my mana better? That translates as shut up and just buff my barbarian. Good boy, now stand in that corner and don't get in the way while we kill things. I do manage my mana, managing my mana means I spend most of the dungeon plinking mobs for trivial amounts while the melee enjoy having a buffbot.

@ the person who says get more wands. The eternal wands are lore items, you can only have one of each. As for the standard wands, if they were cost efficient anyone with UMD would be spamming them all day long.

[shadosatblackphoenix]

I scanned the thread quickly, but I don't think anyone mentioned yet that in Update 5, since Radiant Servants regen turn undeads, that basically gives (someone else) infinite SP if you're willing to wait that long via Divine Vitality?

And for the cleric itself, they can use the positive aura and positive burst to heal with turn undeads, indefinitely.

There, problem solved. (I spent entire quests on Lammania healing test groups without using a single point of SP...)

[Aashrym]

Why don't we start charging melee for their weapon usage at the same rates wizards pay for wands and scrolls.

Every 50 swings, hit or miss, you have to pay 5000 gold.

@ the person who says get more wands. The eternal wands are lore items, you can only have one of each. For the standard wands, if they were cost efficient anyone with UMD would be spamming them all day long.

I usually have more wands than I know what to do with. But then again I follow my own advice and don't run out of SP. And my bards do buy scrolls a lot. Haggle+UMD+enhancements for wands and scrolls does make it worth while in some cases. That's why a play can't buy every spell on a scroll in the game.

This thread is still about more than your wizard not being able to DPS as well as some other classes and the idea that SP regen might change that. ;)

Do you have any responses for my other comments? It still seems you want to focus on one aspect of the wizard class instead of the other classes that would be affected by SP regen. Are you trying to get more DPS or find a way to compensate because other classes are better?

The bottom line is players do not need to quaff down SP pots to play for the most part. Several posts give advice on how to avoid it. If a player chooses to ignore that advice and play differently anyway that would be that players choice and the SP pots would be the consequences of those choices.

Reasons not to add SP regen:

1) It promotes sitting in once place waiting for the regen.

When this game came out that was the reason regen wasn't included, to be different and not promote sitting in one place and to maintain the flow of action. I think that's a great policy, personally.

2) It messes with the balances created by SP caps and amounts given.

For example, I don't take mental toughness because I don't run out of SP as it is and do not want to spend the feat slot on it. Other players might see more value in it if they are running out of SP and don't have a lot of SP to start with. If we added SP regen then this feat just became a lot less effective and less players would be inclined to take it.

This is also true for Cleric vs FvS. Suddenly the higher SP the FvS has is less effective. And Spellsinger vs Warchanter. The SP bonus the spellsinger gets is suddenly less effective. DV suddenly becomes less useful. Etc.

There are feats, items, etc that can provide SP boosts without mana pots. Adding SP regen would require rebalancing to other classes and effects.

3) Finite spell resources are a part of the game DDO is based on.

PnP players (me anyway) want to keep the game as true to the original model as possible without losing playability. Concessions need to be made at times but this simply isn't one of them.


The points you keep making seem to boil down to "my wizard doesn't sustain as much damage as xyz classes and I run out of SP if I try to do damage" and there really are options to manage SP. What do you expect to gain from the SP regen?

[Aashrym]

I scanned the thread quickly, but I don't think anyone mentioned yet that in Update 5, since Radiant Servants regen turn undeads, that basically gives (someone else) infinite SP if you're willing to wait that long via Divine Vitality?

And for the cleric itself, they can use the positive aura and positive burst to heal with turn undeads, indefinitely.

There, problem solved. (I spent entire quests on Lammania healing test groups without using a single point of SP...)

Yes, I thought about trying that and decided it would be terribly boring and not really worth my time. Sitting in one place waiting for numbers to go up just isn't what I would consider fun. ;)

[cdemeritt]

And what do you do if you run out of mana?


Use heal scrolls to help the healers... I rarely run out of mana unless soloing or playing foolishly.

[Targoth1]

I usually have more wands than I know what to do with. But then again I follow my own advice and don't run out of SP. And my bards do buy scrolls a lot. Haggle+UMD+enhancements for wands and scrolls does make it worth while in some cases. That's why a play can't buy every spell on a scroll in the game.

This thread is still about more than your wizard not being able to DPS as well as some other classes and the idea that SP regen might change that. ;)

Do you have any responses for my other comments? It still seems you want to focus on one aspect of the wizard class instead of the other classes that would be affected by SP regen. Are you trying to get more DPS or find a way to compensate because other classes are better?

The bottom line is players do not need to quaff down SP pots to play for the most part. Several posts give advice on how to avoid it. If a player chooses to ignore that advice and play differently anyway that would be that players choice and the SP pots would be the consequences of those choices.

Reasons not to add SP regen:

1) It promotes sitting in once place waiting for the regen.

When this game came out that was the reason regen wasn't included, to be different and not promote sitting in one place and to maintain the flow of action. I think that's a great policy, personally.

2) It messes with the balances created by SP caps and amounts given.

For example, I don't take mental toughness because I don't run out of SP as it is and do not want to spend the feat slot on it. Other players might see more value in it if they are running out of SP and don't have a lot of SP to start with. If we added SP regen then this feat just became a lot less effective and less players would be inclined to take it.

This is also true for Cleric vs FvS. Suddenly the higher SP the FvS has is less effective. And Spellsinger vs Warchanter. The SP bonus the spellsinger gets is suddenly less effective. DV suddenly becomes less useful. Etc.

There are feats, items, etc that can provide SP boosts without mana pots. Adding SP regen would require rebalancing to other classes and effects.

3) Finite spell resources are a part of the game DDO is based on.

PnP players (me anyway) want to keep the game as true to the original model as possible without losing playability. Concessions need to be made at times but this simply isn't one of them.


The points you keep making seem to boil down to "my wizard doesn't sustain as much damage as xyz classes and I run out of SP if I try to do damage" and there really are options to manage SP. What do you expect to gain from the SP regen?

1. Yes, your bard, who is already a better buffbot than most wizards, can actually make cost effective usage of wizard and cleric wands, something those classes cannot do. At the same time, the bard is going to be much less likely to run out of spell points simple because the primary usage for them is buffing, not dpsing. (I have a bard, the only time she ever runs out of sp is when she's the sole healer in the group)

2. There is a balance issue, a huge one, it is between melee and casters.

3. The fix for wizards is not spell point regen. What was requested is far to slow to give wizards unlimited spellcasting, slower even than the hp regen already available to all classes. The simple fact is, the vast majority of parties are not going to wait any significant amount of time for the wizards sp to regen. What was requested would allow for perhaps a handful of additional spells to be cast between shrines.

4. If you want to keep the game true to PnP, take a good hard look at those greensteel weapons. They outstrip the vast majority of artifacts in AD&D. Heck, the gods in AD&D could only wish they were so well armed. Greensteel, and the weapons that have come since have scaled far beyond the original game while most spells have not.

5. Infinite resources already exist in DDO, hit points happen to be one of them.

6. Clerics and Favored souls are not as hard hit by the spell point limitations. The simple fact is, the better the group the less the healer has to cast to serve his primary function. At the same time, the better the group, the less the wizard has to offer. I have two clerics, using different builds, neither runs out of mana in a decent group. Increasing the mana available would have no substantial impact on their gameplay, as they already have sufficient to serve their role.

[Aashrym]

1. Yes, your bard, who is already a better buffbot than most wizards, can actually make cost effective usage of wizard and cleric wands, something those classes cannot do. At the same time, the bard is going to be much less likely to run out of spell points simple because the primary usage for them is buffing, not dpsing. (I have a bard, the only time she ever runs out of sp is when she's the sole healer in the group)

2. There is a balance issue, a huge one, it is between melee and casters.

3. The fix for wizards is not spell point regen. What was requested is far to slow to give wizards unlimited spellcasting, slower even than the hp regen already available to all classes. The simple fact is, the vast majority of parties are not going to wait any significant amount of time for the wizards sp to regen. What was requested would allow for perhaps a handful of additional spells to be cast between shrines.

4. If you want to keep the game true to PnP, take a good hard look at those greensteel weapons. They outstrip the vast majority of artifacts in AD&D. Heck, the gods in AD&D could only wish they were so well armed. Greensteel, and the weapons that have come since have scaled far beyond the original game while most spells have not.

5. Infinite resources already exist in DDO, hit points happen to be one of them.

6. Clerics and Favored souls are not as hard hit by the spell point limitations. The simple fact is, the better the group the less the healer has to cast to serve his primary function. At the same time, the better the group, the less the wizard has to offer. I have two clerics, using different builds, neither runs out of mana in a decent group. Increasing the mana available would have no substantial impact on their gameplay, as they already have sufficient to serve their role.

My wizards don't run out of SP either btw. Bards and wizards are by far my favorite classes. It's not the SP bar that is the issue, it is the balance between aspects of certain classes. High saves and blanket immunities are what hamper casters more than competing for DPS with melees and running out of SP is not the real issue.

With some of the U5 changes we'll see how closer classes are in the balance of things.

I think a better solution than SP regen might be easier access to wands/scrolls for wizards instead of SP regen. It would be more iconic for them and give them more control over SP management. I'm not sure if it's possible, but wizard enhancements to improve crafting might be an idea.

[NostalithilDarkstar]

how about draining manas from other casters?

[DoctorWhofan]

Um, I would say the wizards very low to hit chances, the fact that he's his primary stat offers zero bonuses to melee, having low hit points + low AC. All of these make a pure spellcaster a very poor canidate for melee. Slap on some armor and go to town you say? The wizard that spends valuable feats to gain heavy armor proficiency is not only stupid, but he's going to gimp his spellcasting. The kicker is, even with a full set of high end armor, he's still not going to have enough AC to matter.

As to your comment on firewalls hitting for 1000 points of damage, see the current Firewall thread for a wide variety of responses. One of the big ones is, a great many mobs, especially at end game, are immune to fire.

Another is, a barbarian with THF can hit a mob for 200+ a half dozen times between firewall tics, far exceeding the wizards dps while expending zero resources.

Low levels my friend, low levels,,Master's Touch FTW.

[DoctorWhofan]

how about draining manas from other casters?

Enemy casters have unlimited mana, draining mana doesn't work. Draining levels, however.... :p

[Targoth1]

My wizards don't run out of SP either btw. Bards and wizards are by far my favorite classes. It's not the SP bar that is the issue, it is the balance between aspects of certain classes. High saves and blanket immunities are what hamper casters more than competing for DPS with melees and running out of SP is not the real issue.

With some of the U5 changes we'll see how closer classes are in the balance of things.

I think a better solution than SP regen might be easier access to wands/scrolls for wizards instead of SP regen. It would be more iconic for them and give them more control over SP management. I'm not sure if it's possible, but wizard enhancements to improve crafting might be an idea.

No arguement from me on this one.

One thing I would ask for is for wands to use the wizards level instead of the wands level. As is, the spells from many wands to ineffective due to the level of the wand.

Another option would be to allow wizards to craft their own rods, staves, and wands, and to recharge them in town once depleted. The ability to recharge in town for a nominal cost in collectibles would reduce the usage costs of the wands for the wizards. At the same time, player crafted wands that were bound to the player could be permitted to have many of the spell effects currently banned from wands and scrolls due to UMD.

[Targoth1]

Enemy casters have unlimited mana, draining mana doesn't work. Draining levels, however.... :p

Not draining as in depleting the enemy casters mana, draining as in stealing.

[Targoth1]

Low levels my friend, low levels,,Master's Touch FTW.

Low levels don't last very long. What then?

Master's Touch grants martial weapons proficiency, it does not grant:
- any of the other feats melee classes require to be effective
- Base Attack Bonus
- Strength or Dexterity
- Hit points

Correct me if I'm wrong but at level 20 wizards have a BaB of 10. Given that any caster built to maximize his spell casting effectiveness is going to have a low stregnth, he's going to cap out at what, between +18 and +20 on his attack roll.

Of course, I can build a wizard that is MUCH more efficient at melee, but I am going to be making a lot of sacrifices to my spell casting ability to do it. By that point, why am I playing a wizard instead of a bard.

[TommyBoy]

Why don't we start charging melee for their weapon usage at the same rates wizards pay for wands and scrolls.

Because we don't charge caster for their melee attacks either

Every 50 swings, hit or miss, you have to pay 5000 gold.

Pots? Sure, I'll just pry my wallet wide open for turbine so I can sustain my dps as the same level as the melee classes do. I have sp pots, very carefully hoarded sp pots, that are only used when absolutely necessary, on quests that we are in danger of failing and that have a substantial reward that I need.

Funny thing my wizards, clerics, FS don't by pots and are very effective. for that matter they don't buy too many wands either (once i got pass being new to the game)

Attack dice? Sure I can roll attacks all day long. 5% of them will even hit.

that's your build then. there are plenty of casters, clerics and fs's that can

Manage my mana better? That translates as shut up and just buff my barbarian. Good boy, now stand in that corner and don't get in the way while we kill things. I do manage my mana, managing my mana means I spend most of the dungeon plinking mobs for trivial amounts while the melee enjoy having a buffbot.

No it translates into learn to manage your mana noob. Not every situation requires max, empowered, extended wall of fire. Sometimes a simple web and let the melees hit it twice works just as well if not better.

@ the person who says get more wands. The eternal wands are lore items, you can only have one of each. As for the standard wands, if they were cost efficient anyone with UMD would be spamming them all day long.

But then what do I know I have only been playing a wizard since the game came out.

Also on a side note my barb other then maybe a reconstruct or a rage spell could careless about any buffs your wizard might pass out. Hell I don't even care if I'm hasted.

[TommyBoy]

Low levels don't last very long. What then?

Master's Touch grants martial weapons proficiency, it does not grant:
- any of the other feats melee classes require to be effective
- Base Attack Bonus
- Strength or Dexterity
- Hit points

Correct me if I'm wrong but at level 20 wizards have a BaB of 10. Given that any caster built to maximize his spell casting effectiveness is going to have a low stregnth, he's going to cap out at what, between +18 and +20 on his attack roll.

Of course, I can build a wizard that is MUCH more efficient at melee, but I am going to be making a lot of sacrifices to my spell casting ability to do it. By that point, why am I playing a wizard instead of a bard.

Not really. I have a pure wizard that does combat. At lvl 8 he has a 27 int. He's a little light in the hit points but he has a decent ac and with blur also never gets hit. Also doesn't run out of spell points very often. My FS that is combat oriented is even better and it casts spells too.

[Targoth1]

But then what do I know I have only been playing a wizard since the game came out.

Also on a side note my barb other then maybe a reconstruct or a rage spell could careless about any buffs your wizard might pass out. Hell I don't even care if I'm hasted.

Clerics and favored souls have never had an issue with melee. My clerics both use melee dps. if you've got a wizard build that is effective melee dps outside the first couple of levels, would really enjoy seeing it.

As for charging wizards for melee dps, sure why not, as long as we scale the cost based upon its effectiveness. I'll be paying copper per swing, compared to the platinum per swing certain other classes pay.

I don't buy pots, and i'f I'm a good boy and stand by with buffs ready, I don't run out of mana. But don't ever think I'm going to be quiet about it. The melee in this game are horribly unbalanced due to the rampant proliferation of overpowered weapons. There has been no equivalent buffing of the casters offensive abilities.

You could care less about wizard buffs on a barbarian? Really? You must have a bard throwing displacements and haste on you then. Either that or your going to need more than a few reconstructs.

[r3dl4nce]

if you've got a wizard build that is effective melee dps outside the first couple of levels,1fighter/2rogue/17wizard warforged with greataxe or eSoS

[Visty]

1fighter/2rogue/17wizard warforged with greataxe or eSoS

i wouldnt waste my breath on him

no matter what you bring, he will dismiss it and goes on on how wizards can only cast spells and nothing else

[TommyBoy]

Clerics and favored souls have never had an issue with melee. My clerics both use melee dps. if you've got a wizard build that is effective melee dps outside the first couple of levels, would really enjoy seeing it.

Dig around there are tons of melee wizards, some pure some multi

As for charging wizards for melee dps, sure why not, as long as we scale the cost based upon its effectiveness. I'll be paying copper per swing, compared to the platinum per swing certain other classes pay.

I was being sarcastic about your ludicrous statement

I don't buy pots, and i'f I'm a good boy and stand by with buffs ready, I don't run out of mana. But don't ever think I'm going to be quiet about it. The melee in this game are horribly unbalanced due to the rampant proliferation of overpowered weapons. There has been no equivalent buffing of the casters offensive abilities.

The fact that they had to start giving mobs fire immunity, bosses don't take stat damage, and Cloud Kill auto aggroes are example of the spells being "overpowered" to the point of breaking the game. I dis agree with the devs that CK needs to auto aggro, but not that the mods would flee it.

You could care less about wizard buffs on a barbarian? Really? You must have a bard throwing displacements and haste on you then. Either that or your going to need more than a few reconstructs.
No but I also don't always run with perfect parties either. So you get used to not always having it. Buffs are nice but not always needed.


Play the game for a while you'll learn

My lvl nine is a drow 9wizard, 22 dex,10 con (that needs some help), and 27int. He wear +2 mith chain shirt and mith light shield. He is not a tank by any means but I have tanked with him. He would fall more in the off tank category with monks rogues and rangers (all of which I have seen tank variants of).

I am curently working on a wf multi that is based loosely on Samius's java bot.that will be 3 monk/ 6 fighter/ 11 wiz.

[ElfedLied4]

The melee in this game are horribly unbalanced due to the rampant proliferation of overpowered weapons. There has been no equivalent buffing of the casters offensive abilities.

If you really really think that melee is so great, I suggest playing as a melee.

If you are going to pull Greensteel Weapons out as an example of overpowered weapons you must also allow for Conc Opp giving you unlimited mana. If you want to ignore the best caster gear you must ignore the best melee gear too. You also decided to ignore Master's Touch for low levels...and firewall for midgame....what's left? I don't think that any of your points have been unanswered.

[TommyBoy]

If you really really think that melee is so great, I suggest playing as a melee.

If you are going to pull Greensteel Weapons out as an example of overpowered weapons you must also allow for Conc Opp giving you unlimited mana. If you want to ignore the best caster gear you must ignore the best melee gear too. You also decided to ignore Master's Touch for low levels...and firewall for midgame....what's left? I don't think that any of your points have been unanswered.

Agreed

Also don't forget Wail of the Banshee. Even barbs with ESoS can take out a whole group with one attack. Yes it doesn't work on everything but its a pretty good **** spell.

[Mojo]

The point I was making is that for Wizards (at least), spells represent both offense and defense. Without spell points, their offensive and defensive capabilities are virtually nil (barring the use of items).

This is not so for melee classes and other classes capable of using weapons with some skill.

Of course, having those eternal wands helps enormously, I just didn't realize they were as available as they are. I still think a very slow regeneration would be really good for the game. If it's slow enough, it will discourage people standing around waiting for it, but it would be there if absolutely needed.

Perhaps the wands are sufficient. In the end, it's a matter of opinion.

[redspecter23]

Problem is, if regen is too fast, it's broken and if it's too slow, it's useless. It would be very difficult to find something balancing. If the devs were ever to explore this idea, perhaps a slow regen with a cap of 25 sp so that you could always regen up from 0 but no higher than 25 so you could get one, non maxed, non empowered spell off every little while, but your power would be very limited.

[MyersVandalay]

The point I was making is that for Wizards (at least), spells represent both offense and defense. Without spell points, their offensive and defensive capabilities are virtually nil (barring the use of items).

This is not so for melee classes and other classes capable of using weapons with some skill.

Of course, having those eternal wands helps enormously, I just didn't realize they were as available as they are. I still think a very slow regeneration would be really good for the game. If it's slow enough, it will discourage people standing around waiting for it, but it would be there if absolutely needed.

Perhaps the wands are sufficient. In the end, it's a matter of opinion.

Fact is in general no matter how slow it doesn't discourage people, in general the typical strategy before a boss fight in WoW, 100% of the time was, unless you have a death wish, don't go in until you regen your mana back to 100%, fact is unless the battle is trivial, people prefer to have 100%, the idea of resource management, and anything other then, blow everything you got as fast as you possibly can, goes out the window.

[r3dl4nce]

SP regeneration IS IN GAME!
Only, you are too low level to have the right items to have it.
Conc Opp + Torc + shield + mob hitting you. VoilÃ*, you gain 150-300 sp in matter of 1-2 minutes

[Mojo]

But you see, I'd rather the Wizards be active during the whole quest rather than saving everything til the end and being useless before that. Also, what of soloers?

I just see it as being better than the alternative.

[Yagi]

Sp regen would not really address the fact that casters can not sustain heavy dps, it would either be balanced and therefore do nothing but maybe allow a few extra casts on a boss, or it would be so over the top that it would absolutely change the nature of DDO combat. Honestly its fine the way it is imo, sure alot of poeople are not used to having no SP regen, but those same people are probably also not used to consumables being so effective in general gameplay.

[Visty]

But you see, I'd rather the Wizards be active during the whole quest rather than saving everything til the end and being useless before that. Also, what of soloers?

I just see it as being better than the alternative.

you dont have to kill every mob in a dungeon

cast invisbility, run to the endboss, nuke him down, done

if you solo you have to play differant then when youre in a group

[Mojo]

you dont have to kill every mob in a dungeon

cast invisbility, run to the endboss, nuke him down, done

if you solo you have to play differant then when youre in a group

And yet, melee classes need not do that, solo or otherwise. Personally, I don't think the solution is to NOT play the game.

[Visty]

And yet, melee classes need not do that, solo or otherwise. Personally, I don't think the solution is to NOT play the game.

show me how any melee can create an insane army of mobs

[IanYang]

I agree with this idea. You will never tell a ranger: "If you run out of ammo, you are doing something wrong."

[Visty]

I agree with this idea. You will never tell a ranger: "If you run out of ammo, you are doing something wrong."

those rangers who use ranged dont run out of ammo cause they have unlimited of it

[Aashrym]

And yet, melee classes need not do that, solo or otherwise. Personally, I don't think the solution is to NOT play the game.

A solo wizard can kill mobs too. Buff up, cast masters touch, pick a suitable weapon for the mob, and beat them down if you want to fight every mob. You won't do as much damage as a melee but you can contribute and then still have SP when you need it.

You can contribute ever fight, some more than others. That depends on how you manage SP and other players keep saying it's possible because other players can do it and have done it.

[Uska]

And yet, melee classes need not do that, solo or otherwise. Personally, I don't think the solution is to NOT play the game.

No its to play the game properly and sp regen isnt dnd even and yes 3.5 had rules for using sp. NO easy buttons please and yes I have casters

[Hokiewa]

But you see, I'd rather the Wizards be active during the whole quest rather than saving everything til the end and being useless before that. Also, what of soloers?

I just see it as being better than the alternative.

Again, a solo caster can have virtually unlimited mana without gear, without leaving the quest.....without pots......etc....It's incredibly efficient for an arcane beginning at level 7.

[Mojo]

Unless you an guarantee that a caster will never run out of power, my argument stands. A Fighter will never run out of Axe or Armour. A Ranger can run out of arrows, but he still has a sword and armour.

A Wizard has spells, but he can run out of power. Master's Touch is a spell. If I have no power for spells, how do I use it?

As I say, my argument remains valid, I think. However, I agree there are tools in the game that make it less of an issue than I had originally considered.

[Aashrym]

Unless you an guarantee that a caster will never run out of power, my argument stands. A Fighter will never run out of Axe or Armour. A Ranger can run out of arrows, but he still has a sword and armour.

A Wizard has spells, but he can run out of power. Master's Touch is a spell. If I have no power for spells, how do I use it?

As I say, my argument remains valid, I think. However, I agree there are tools in the game that make it less of an issue than I had originally considered.

Master's Touch has a long duration and costs 10 SP. If you can't afford 10 SP at the beginning of a quest you have more issues than you think ;).

Wizards run out of SP due to the choices they make, not the mechanics of the game. And if you don't have the mana and still need to melee, then you still can. You would downgrade from an axe to a staff.

Fighters can run out of armor or axe from item damage. Rare but not impossible.

I don't like making comments like this, but if you don't like the way this game limits spell casting don't play a spell caster or play another game. Or work on you skills managing your resources. Resource management is part of the game and all players do it.

If you want a comparison to melee running out of power think more in terms of things like haste boost or rage. Specific number of uses on those too.

[Mojo]

Master's Touch has a long duration and costs 10 SP. If you can't afford 10 SP at the beginning of a quest you have more issues than you think ;).

Wizards run out of SP due to the choices they make, not the mechanics of the game. And if you don't have the mana and still need to melee, then you still can. You would downgrade from an axe to a staff.

Fighters can run out of armor or axe from item damage. Rare but not impossible.

I don't like making comments like this, but if you don't like the way this game limits spell casting don't play a spell caster or play another game. Or work on you skills managing your resources. Resource management is part of the game and all players do it.

If you want a comparison to melee running out of power think more in terms of things like haste boost or rage. Specific number of uses on those too.


Not to worry, I'm not taking any comments personally, so feel free to say what you think.

My way of thinking is, if I don't like something, I'll find out if others feel the same as I do. If there are enough people that do, then I'll make a suggestion in hopes of getting the situation improved. If there aren't, then c'est la vie.

Part of my point is that none of the other classes suffers as much for the resource management. If you run into an unexpected encounter and are forced to use a large amount of power to survive, then you could easily find yourself OUT of power before you've finished. Characters using haste or rage boosts are getting BOOSTS, thoe abilities are not required for them to be successful. For Wizards, if they're out of power, they might as well give up (barring use of eternal wands, which I agree are a big help) since they lack the skill, dps and health to survive melee.

As I say, I just wanted to see a way created that would allow the Wizards to get back enough power to finish a quest in the event they do run out. The wands may be sufficient, but it would still be nice to regen a bit.


How about this (an idea literally JUST came to me). What about allowing casters a Cantrip "spell" that will regenerate power? That is, it would be a Level 0 spell that uses no power, and will make your power regenerate for a few minutes. It could have a limited number of uses or a long recharge. Would that be better or the same?

[Visty]

How about this (an idea literally JUST came to me). What about allowing casters a Cantrip "spell" that will regenerate power? That is, it would be a Level 0 spell that uses no power, and will make your power regenerate for a few minutes. It could have a limited number of uses or a long recharge. Would that be better or the same?

such things will come, at least turbine said so

they will be part of the prestige classes iirc
palemaster already has the necrotic touch which costs only hp to cast, the elemental savants will have some atwill power too, and the other prestige classes, even if not out, will prolly have something too

[Uska]

Unless you an guarantee that a caster will never run out of power, my argument stands. A Fighter will never run out of Axe or Armour. A Ranger can run out of arrows, but he still has a sword and armour.

A Wizard has spells, but he can run out of power. Master's Touch is a spell. If I have no power for spells, how do I use it?

As I say, my argument remains valid, I think. However, I agree there are tools in the game that make it less of an issue than I had originally considered.

melee types run out of hp or get stat drained to the point of being useless should they be just given something to counter that:rolleyes:

[svinja]

There should be no SP regen and SP pots should be removed from the game (and the store). These are simply not good design decisions.

but moooooeeem i want to kill the 3 hobgoblins that the melee would kill in 3 seconds anywayyyy even though this isn't how casters are played in dnd or even any dnd computer game

[Mojo]

melee types run out of hp or get stat drained to the point of being useless should they be just given something to counter that:rolleyes:

Wizards run out of HP (faster than melee types) and get stat drained too. The comparison isn't the same.



There should be no SP regen and SP pots should be removed from the game (and the store). These are simply not good design decisions.

but moooooeeem i want to kill the 3 hobgoblins that the melee would kill in 3 seconds anywayyyy even though this isn't how casters are played in dnd or even any dnd computer game

Your attempt to infantilize the idea fails. We're just having a discussion, there's no reason to be insulting.

[eonfreon]

melee types run out of hp or get stat drained to the point of being useless should they be just given something to counter that:rolleyes:

They do. It's called cure pots for hp and restore pots for stat damage.
Plus stat damage regenerates over time.

[Quijonsith]

To the OP: If you want a abilities that recharge on their own role a monk. All you need is something to punch and you're good. The only time a pure monk needs to shrine is to recharge clickies.

Otherwise your options have already been laid out in the rest of this thread.

[Quijonsith]

Wizards run out of HP (faster than melee types) and get stat drained too. The comparison isn't the same.


That entirely depends on the build. I've seen 200hp melees and I've seen 400hp wizards. If you CHOOSE to make a character with lower hit points that's entirely on you. Hell just the other day I ran VoD with an 18 WF barbarian that had fewer HP than my human monk intimitank.

[Drakos]

I imagine it's been suggested before, but I thought I'd bring it up in case it hadn't.

What would people say to allowing power (mana) to regenerate slowly while IN quests (ie. without needing a shrine). That's JUST power, not health. For that you would need a shrine.

Why, you ask? Well, it seems to me that pure spellcasters are at a significant disadvantage. When their power runs out, they're basically incapable of doing anything. A Wizard with no power is just a wimp with a staff. Other classes that don't rely as heavily on power are still able to carry on. Healing potions and so forth abound, and they usually have access to heavy armour and weapons. Casters are stuck with little chance to succeed shoudl they run out of power.

Thus, I suggest this. A slow (VERY slow - slower than in town) regeneration of power. You'd still be much faster going to a shrine or using a potion, if you're fortunate enough to get one, but on those occasions when one is not available, you will be able to continue the quest if you have some patience.

What do you think?
/not signed.

To me it would take the class even farther from the roots. Part of being a caster in PnP and in DDO is spell management. If you just willy-nilly cast spells without thinking about the long haul of the entire adventure then you aren't playing a caster correctly. It's all about stretching it between the regeneration points.

[Aikidragon]

Interesting Discussion. What is this Conc opp that people keep mentioning. I was never good at keeping up with abbreviated names that people use for MMOs

[Visty]

Interesting Discussion. What is this Conc opp that people keep mentioning. I was never good at keeping up with abbreviated names that people use for MMOs

concorded opposition (or sth like that)

pos+neg dual shard greensteel upgrade

[Cyr]

I agree with this idea. You will never tell a ranger: "If you run out of ammo, you are doing something wrong."

I've told rangers this many times before. Not everyone is an AA and for years AA was not in the game.

[svinja]

Your attempt to infantilize the idea fails. We're just having a discussion, there's no reason to be insulting.

The point was: don't cast spells at things that melee will easily kill without your spells. This is the way people usually run out of mana when playing arcane casters. A caster is not a barbarian, he isn't supposed to unload on every single mob. There are places where a caster is extremely useful, there are places where his damage spells aren't needed at all, save mana for the former. Casters would be too powerful if they were able to spam their spells - a barbarian can swing forever but that's all he can do.