Whirling Servant of Light

[wax_on_wax_off]

This should be a 36 point build 15 cleric, monk 3, fighter 2. I wanted to make the concept work but i think it breaks down a bit because it is so MAD. Fighter 4 and taking weapon specialisation instead of divine might III is a compromise.
Ideally having +3 or +4 tomes for stats as well as 36 point build would change the outcome of this build dramatically.
This build is based around DMIII, the new whirling steel strike feat and the new radiant servant PrE.

Elf Cleric 13 (radiant servant)/monk 3/fighter 4
(32 point)
str 14 (+level ups)
dex 15
con 12
int 11
wis 14
cha 14

skills: Concentration, UMD, tumble (1), balance (leftovers)

7 Base: empower healing, whirling steel strike, quicken spell, maximise spell, ITWF, GTWF, TWF
2 Monk: toughness, power attack
3 Fighter: WF: slash, improved critical: slash, weapon specialisation: slash

Enhancements: 80 points available
(In order: elf, monk, fighter, cleric, radiant servant PrE reqs)
6 Elven Dexterity II
6 Aerenal Elf Melee Damage II
6 Aerenal Elf Melee Attack II
1 Way of the Crane
1 Fists of Light
2 Monk Improved Recovery
2 Fighter Strength I
1 Fighter Toughness I
1 Fighter item defense I
1 Fighter haste boost I
6 Divine Might III
6 Radiant Servant II
12 Cleric Wisdom III
6 Unyielding Sovereignty
12 Improved Spell Penetration III
2 Cleric Improved Turning I
4 Cleric Life Magic IIII
1 Cleric Prayer of Life I
1 Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
1 Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I

Strengths:
good damage from DMII, cleric buffs, elf enhs, monk moves, PA, weapon specialisation
good AC from wisdom, dexterity
good saves and evasion

Weaknesses:
MAD

What do you think?

I started working on this concept over here:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3046443&posted=1

Edit: fixed up in response to some of DrNuegebauer post and added feats by level (17/6/10)
Edit: implemented tkneip1874's idea, seems a great one and added enhancements by level (18/6/10)
Edit: fixed cleric level (19/6/10)
Edit: compacted enhancements (22/6/10)
Edit: fixed as per butlerfamilywa's post (thanks man, great save! 24/6/10)
Edit: added weakness and maximise option as per ghettoGenius' post (24/6/10)
Edit: put in Aschbart's suggestion, adjusted forecast HP (24/6/10)
Edit: adjusted enhancements, strengths/weaknesses, stats (added UMD) (24/6/10)
Edit: took out void strike (30/6/10)
Edit: reworked the build a bit and considering rolling it up (28/7/10)

[DrNuegebauer]

Just a couple of things:

1. You took monk wisdom AND cleric wisdom. You can't have both! So (I assume) you'll take the cleric wisdom line. But if you take the first level of monk toughness instead that should help the meagre HP total!

2. The radiant servant regen + divine might would probably mean you get unlimited access to +6 damage (as long as you keep hitting the button). So you'll do some good damage BUT....

3. You really want extend and maximize in your build. Max for BB and extend for DP + DM (your BAB and damage boosters). And you MUST have power attack.

Consider dropping emp healing for at least extend. Perhaps take one level of fighter to shuffle feats and take maximize. Then drop IC slash for Power attack once you craft you Min II gs longswords - you won't need it then!

[wax_on_wax_off]

Just a couple of things:

1. You took monk wisdom AND cleric wisdom. You can't have both! So (I assume) you'll take the cleric wisdom line. But if you take the first level of monk toughness instead that should help the meagre HP total!

2. The radiant servant regen + divine might would probably mean you get unlimited access to +6 damage (as long as you keep hitting the button). So you'll do some good damage BUT....

3. You really want extend and maximize in your build. Max for BB and extend for DP + DM (your BAB and damage boosters). And you MUST have power attack.

Consider dropping emp healing for at least extend. Perhaps take one level of fighter to shuffle feats and take maximize. Then drop IC slash for Power attack once you craft you Min II gs longswords - you won't need it then!

Thanks for the input, it's exactly what I need!

1. I didn't know that I couldn't take both monk wisdom and cleric wisdom, sucks but thats life I suppose. Monk toughness isn't listed on ddowiki, good to know I can take that
2. Is exactly the the concept behind the build
3. I've thought a fair bit about extend, its great, especially at earlier levels so might think about taking it only to swap it out later. Maximise is great but i don't see how i can fit it into the build.

Empower healing is a prereq for radiant servant so can't drop it.
Knowing that I can drop improved critical is amazing news. But are they the *only* weapons I would use? No banishers? smiters? etc.? In reality i could drop wf:slash and whirling steel strike for power attack and maximise or extend but i think it will be cool to have longswords as monk weapons ...

[tkneip1874]

instead of 1 ftr would it make more sence to take 3 monk? i have very limite xp with monk but i believe that you get different finishing moves at lvl 3. the 10% mana reduction comes to mind...

[wax_on_wax_off]

i saw that, it's 25% SP reduction too but im not sure if it just affects my allies or me as well, can anyone clarify?

I'm weary of taking too many melee levels regardless of the boost that she would get to her melee because i want to remain a competent cleric. 25% SP reduction is *really* sexy though. Especially if you can save it for buffing ...

It would also be quite stylish to manage to squeeze in the path of light on a radiant servant cleric, ill think about it.

[wax_on_wax_off]

So it's getting more fleshed out.

Would anyone be willing to do a mock up of projected AC, projected spell DC, projected attack bonus and projected damage? Would be nice for some comparisons. I don't know enough to attempt to myself.

[ghettoGenius]

I would go human. Extra feat plus the sov host line which you already have give you longswords. Save 6 enh points for SP III. Ive been looking at WSS builds for several years now (ever since it was mistakenly put into the compendium) and I keep seeing the same issues. Tight on feats and enhancements makes balance between melee and casting difficult to satisfy (for myself at least).

See IMO clerics are best suited for offensive casting at endgame (healing goes without saying). You sacrifice alot of potential by trying to melee too much (no spell pen feats, maximize, MT or IMT), and this could be just your preferred playstyle. You could even argue that a DM IV radiant servant (khopesh or no khopesh) would fare better with the turn regens.

With all those melee feats your spellcasting is going to be hit more than you think at end game, something to think about. That said I like the synergy between monk/cleric especially with aligning the heavens which is potentially huge.

[butlerfamilywa]

So you're looking at going cleric first level? Otherwise how do you plan on getting empower healing spell at level 1...

[wax_on_wax_off]

I would go human. Extra feat plus the sov host line which you already have give you longswords. Save 6 enh points for SP III. Ive been looking at WSS builds for several years now (ever since it was mistakenly put into the compendium) and I keep seeing the same issues. Tight on feats and enhancements makes balance between melee and casting difficult to satisfy (for myself at least).

See IMO clerics are best suited for offensive casting at endgame (healing goes without saying). You sacrifice alot of potential by trying to melee too much (no spell pen feats, maximize, MT or IMT), and this could be just your preferred playstyle. You could even argue that a DM IV radiant servant (khopesh or no khopesh) would fare better with the turn regens.

With all those melee feats your spellcasting is going to be hit more than you think at end game, something to think about. That said I like the synergy between monk/cleric especially with aligning the heavens which is potentially huge.

I must admit ive never had a high level cleric. Only one ive played is sitting on 500 favour on argonnessen ready with potency VI items feeling quite neglected. I must admit im not as fussed about end game as most people are. I suppose im building for something that will be good on the True Res'd trip from 1-20 as the primary goal while still being viable end game. I've tried to keep offensive casting viable by keeping wisdom high and I think there is an option to miss out on power attack and take maximise instead. I chose elf because of the synergy with the bonus attack and damage from elf enhancements which i will keep if only for the spice of it.

On another note ive been playing around with the idea of lowering con by 1 and putting int up by 1 to squeeze in UMD or Diplomacy. I've been sitting on the fence for a long time about UMD but im firmly lead to believe that it isn't necessary as best use for UMD is heal scrolls which i can use. Which im ok with though i will miss being able to equip any item. Diplomacy has occurred to me as i imagine i will get a decent amount of aggro if im melee'ing and need a way to shed it. Is diplomacy viable? Valuable?

[butlerfamilywa]

DO NOT GO HUMAN.

Been sitting there playing around with these feats on the test server... you MUST have longsword prof to be able to take whirling steel strike feat.

Elves get it for free..

Humans would have to spend a feat or multi to 16/3/1 and lose lvl 9 spells.

[wax_on_wax_off]

DO NOT GO HUMAN.

Been sitting there playing around with these feats on the test server... you MUST have longsword prof to be able to take whirling steel strike feat.

Elves get it for free..

Humans would have to spend a feat or multi to 16/3/1 and lose lvl 9 spells.

Thanks butlerfamilywa, great to clear that up!

[Gkar]

nm...read...

[butlerfamilywa]

True however FVS lvl 17 = no level 9 spells.

Diplo is useless, however UMD is not...

Displacement scrolls, shadow walk scrolls, teleport, ect ect ect

[wax_on_wax_off]

True however FVS lvl 17 = no level 9 spells.

Diplo is useless, however UMD is not...

Displacement scrolls, shadow walk scrolls, teleport, ect ect ect

So I'm thinking of lowering con to 11, using a +1 tome at level 3 and banking a +3 tome to use asap which hopefully shouldn't affect my HP too much?

The upside of this is starting with 10 int and using a +2 int tome at 7 to take ranks in UMD on top of balance and concentration.
Advantages:
Can be Lawful Neutral
(Avoid unholy damage and use Litany)
Can equip any weapon
Can use arcane wands and scrolls

Disadvantages:
Possibly less HP. However, referring to this post
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=219755
I should have the same HP with a +3 con tome minus FvS toughness enhancements. Which is more than my current estimate.

This would mean banking a +3 cha tome and a +3 con tome. I planned to get the +3 cha tome on 20th run of Shroud. Not sure where to get the other ... I've never tried to grind for tomes before.
Is this a working idea? A good one?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Comparing to hit and damage from here
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=219755

ToHit with Scimitars:
36 <- BAB 20 (divine power) +1 (L3 FvS) +2 (Valenar Att 2) +4 GH +3 DFavor +10 Str
+Weapon Bonus +Rage +4 (Epic Spec Gloves)
-4 TWF No-Oversized -5 PA

Damage with Scimitars:
Weapon Base D6 (D8 GS) + Weapon Bonus + 12Str +2 (FvS feat) +2 (Elf Enh) +2 (FvS Enh) +4 (DBoost/20s) +Rage +Bard + 5 PA + Divine Favor

Cleric
ToHit with Longswords:
<- BAB 20 (divine power) +1 (Soverign Host) +1 (weapon focus)
+2 (Valenar Att 2) +4 GH +3 DFavor +6 Str
+Weapon Bonus +Rage +4 (Epic Spec Gloves)
-4 TWF No-Oversized -5 PA

Damage with Longswords:
Weapon Base D8 (D10 GS) + Weapon Bonus
+6 Str +6 (Divine Might) +2 (Elf Enh)
+Rage +Bard + Divine Favor +5 PA

Attack is -5
FvS gets +23 damage +4 from limited damage boost
Cleric gets +19 from unlimited divine mights + monk attacks

If i was to be strength based I think would see superior values.
I value spell DCs though. Is this comparison right?
On attack and damage with comparable strength Cleric > FvS
I've read a majority of informed opinions preferring max wisdom however.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Biggest problem I have is that going the spellcasting route I am still missing spell penetration and GSP.

I'm stuck for ideas of how to fix this though.

As far as I can see only option is to drop it to 15 cleric/ 2 fighter / 3 monk.
But thats dropping DCs by 1, spell penetration by 2 to add 4. Not worth it.
Might as well go strength build. Don't like that idea either.

I don't have a good understanding of the SR mechanic in DDO at all. I never noticed it on any of my spell casters who are level <13 but it had come up occasionally. I understand it will be more common at higher levels. Can I get around this? Am I not going to be able to land spells against some foes with this build?

Edit: If taking maximise is only for blade barrier then why not cast 2 blade barriers instead of 1? Using them is usually a strategy of attrition and it isn't about doing as much damage as possible as fast as possible, is it?
If I sacrifice Power Attack out of the build (blasphemy I know) and don't take maximise then I could get Spell Penetration. Would this tidy the edges?

Edit: In "The Really good FvS" http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=200561 only Spell Penetration is taken and not Greater Spell Penetration. This results in +3 to spell penetration as is, +1 if i take it. Exact same feats however I am trying to squeeze in whirling steel strike, weapon focus: slashing and empower healing (PrE req). In the end I am sacrificing 3 of extend spell, power attack, maximise and spell penetration. Or reconsider GTWF?!?!

God I wish that I could have my cake and eat it too.

[Aschbart]

Here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=250606) is a similar build based on dwarven axes. It's missing the PrE, but the required feat is in, so just have to rearrange the enhancements.

I've just started such a build and am enjoying it very much. As a level 5 I recently joined a group of 4 level 7s for WW elite and led the kill counts all the way. Only foreign buff I got was an occasional haste, and one of the 7s was a full healer, taking most of the strain off my mana bar.

I do have a level of fighter so I can fit in OTWF on top of the TWF chain, PA, Toughness, Emp. Healing, Maximize, Extend, and Quicken.

While this build uses the wrong weapon for your purpose, the thread might contain some useful number crunching that you could steal and adapt to your build.

P.S.: the one feat I'd probably drop for the purpose of getting Spell Pen is Extend. Or more precisely, swap out Extend for SP at higher levels, because there's no use for it before then, while you will really want to have Extend during your low levels.

If you don't take fighter, you might also consider dropping Toughness: It will only yield a total of 42 HPs with racial toughness. There is no monk class toughness enhancement (unless there's a change to that end in U5?), only Way of the Tortoise which doesn't require Toughness as prereq.. This would make you more squishy, but you have a ton of defensive spells, cures and healing to cope with that.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Thank you so much for the input. I like the idea of dropping toughness I'm just worried about mentioning it in the forums as there would be little left of me but scorch marks after the flaming was done.

Might free up some room certainly and I would still be significantly over the 300HP milestone for power word stun. The build so far already swaps out extend spell for quicken spell at level 16.

[Arlathen]

Hi Wax,

Not had chance to read through the thread and digest all the comments so far but I did get your message and will give you some insight and input later tonight :)

Arlathen

[Arlathen]

Ok, I've had time to digest what your doing and read through some of the comments. Please bear in mind that these comments relate to update 5 (obviously :D).

First - Please take my thoughts and comments as constructive critcism in that I want you to have the best build you can have availabe to you with the build concepts in mind. When I say 'critical flaw' none of this is aimed you personally, but at the build i have seen many players trying to come up with.

__________________________________________________ _________________

Ok where to start. Lets talk about where you want to go with this build, and then I'll break down by each segment what you have listed and what can be done to improve it.

As with any 'Melee' orientated Cleric, your actually trying to bring all three of a Cleric's possible strengths into play in one 'uber' build:
- Your wanting to TWF melee, be effective with those weapons and get good kill counts against trash. You know you'll never be 'top-tier' DPS, but you want to be very effective.
- Your wanting to Offensive Cast. Clerics have some of the best Offensive spells for Crowd control, instant kill and damage.
- You want to heal. All clerics want to heal, and should be able to heal no matter the build.

----------------------------------------------------------------
So with that in mind, lets hit up multiclassing and the new toy that Whirling Steel Strike is and why people are viewing as a 'uber' feat.
----------------------------------------------------------------

The Cleric needs a heavy investment in levels in order to gain his best spells, gain an effective Spell Penetration roll and also build a DC. All Clerics by necessity need to pump there casting stat, Wisdom, as much as possible to have an effective DC and also want as many levels for Spell Penetration as possible. They also need to cater meta magic feats into there build to emphasise the damage of offensive spells, improve the healing output of there spells and make there combat buffs last longer.

The Monk synergises with Cleric through Wisdom. The difficulty in doing so is that in order to get the best out of a Monk and use his elemental stances you need to be centred, wielding monk weapons and wearing no armour (and be unburdened, but with enough strength this never a problem). The elemental stances offer you a variety of benefits, but most likely your looking at Wind stance for improved attack speed and Water stance to enhance your primary casting stat.

Monk also offers a range of benefits depending on the amount of multiclassing you do:
- 1 level will give you Widom AC, Stances, a free Martial Arts feat
- 2 levels will also give you Evasion and another free Martial Arts feat
- 3 levels will give you access to a Philosophy, typically the Light path
- - This in turn will give you access to Aligning the Heavens and Fists of Light

My first personal opinion is that the third level of Monk is wasted on a primarily Cleric build. Fists of Light and Healing Ki are so far superseeded by your Cleric healing abilities that you reduce the benfits of the the thrid level to being access to -25% Spell point costs. This is nice, especially if you play as a heavy buffer at the start of quests and after shrining, but I do prefer the additional Cleric level instead: More SP, More Spell Penetration, more Spell Choices.

So my choice for a multiclass level split would be Cleric 18 / Monk 2

Lets move on to the first critical flaw in the build that we need to improve. Attributes.

Building a Melee Cleric, especially one that is TWF, is highly stat dependant, or to coin a term is extremely MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependant). Infact, with wanting to have Divine Might in the build you make it the worse case of MAD that I've seen on a build! Even worse than a TWF Paladin :D

So, I would give some serious consideration to dropping the TWF idea and instead opting for THF. From here on in I explain the reasoning as I go along, but bear with me.

TWF -
Str: 14 - +6 Item +2 Tome +2 Exceptional = 24
Dex: 15 - +6 Item +3 Tome +2 Race = 26
Con: 12 - +6 Item +2 Tome = 20
Int: 8 - +2 Tome = 10
Wis: 16 - +6 Item +2 Tome +4 Levels +3 Class +2 Exceptional = 34
Cha: 14 - +6 Item +3 Tome +1 Levels +2 Class = 26 (Base 18 for DM3)
- Add either a +2 Dex or +2 Con Exceptional Bonus as you prefer
- Easier to get 3 Exceptional bonuses on a TWF as you can put +2 Wis or con on a Mineral 2 weapon

THF -
Str: 15 - +6 Item +3 Tome +3 Exceptional = 28
Dex: 10 - +6 Item +2 Tome +2 Race = 20
Con: 12 - +6 Item +2 Tome = 20
Int: 8 - +2 Tome = 10
Wis: 17 - +6 Item +2 Tome +5 Levels +3 Class +3 Exceptional = 36
Cha: 15 - +6 Item +3 Tome +2 Class = 26 (Base 18 for DM3)
- Add either a +2 Dex or +2 Con Exceptional Bonus as you prefer
- As your THF, likely you won't have a Mineral 2 weapon in your hands, so a third Exceptional bonus is very tricky.

Str / Dex - Interplayed between what is needed for what fighting style. By THF, you relegate the need for Dex in the build and can emphasise your Wis / Cha more.

Con - You simply cannot afford to drop Con below 12, you'll be stretched for Hit Points as it and as some one who has a lvl 20 Elf melee DPS character with 374 HP, its not enough!Every point counts, please please please what ever you do don't drop this below 12.

Int - Absolute necessary Dump stat. You can't afford to put any more points into this as you need every over stat!

Wis - Your casting Stat. Needs every point you have available if you want to melee and cast offensively, even at the higher levels!

Cha - The only real concern is Base 18 for DM3 here, but more Cha = more Turns = more DM = more DPS.

The fact that you are TR'ing is a benefit, those two extra attribute points in my opinion are kind of necessary!

Feats

Ok, onto the daddy flaw in trying to build a this kind of build.

There are not enough feats in this build to justify spending two feats on Weapon Focus: Slash and Whirling Steel Strike.

Lets start with the what you need for melee combat:

For TWF, to be effective you need all three TWF feats. Even then, you have a 80% chance to make an offhand attack. Arguably, you also need Improved Critical and Power Attack as well. If you want to hit things in melee in Epic, I would suggest taking OTWF as well! To improve your survivability, you also want to take Toughness to improve your hit point potential as much as possible.

Thats 7 feats out of your standard allowance of 7 character feats. With the monk splash, you now have just 2 feats to fit in any spell casting orientated feats and meta-magics you want by reorganising which feat slots take what.

For the spell casting Cleric, my view is the following is necessary:
- Quicken, Empower Heal, Maximise, Heighten, Extend

And the following are additional 'pretty important' feats:
- Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration

And if you can fit them in, these as well:
- Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus

And lastly, if you somehow have 11 feats to spend exclusively on casting feats:
- Mental Toughness, Improved Mental Toughness

Err, thats 11 feats. A pure Cleric has a hard time choosing between all that normally, never mind trying to crowbar in combat feats.

But obviously, your striking a balance between two of the core elements of your build - Melee & Combat.

For TWF:
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Empower Heal
Maximise
Heighten
Extend or Quicken
Monk bonus - Power Attack
Monk bonus - Toughness

This setup does assume that you use Mineral 2 weapons from shroud to negate the need for Improved Critical. This slims down your versatility in melee somewhat, but Mineral 2 is generally accepted as the best set of melee dps weapons for TWF. Or, atleast, in my opinion it is. This setup atleast allows you to fit in the minimum meta-magic feats you need for cleric casting.

For THF:
Spell Penetration
Extend or Greater Spell Penetration
Empower Heal
Maximise
Heighten
Quicken
Improved Critical
Monk bonus - Power Attack
Monk bonus - Toughness

Errr.... where the hell are the THF fighting feats!??! You don't need them. Yes, your losing glancing blows, but for single target damage you really don't need the feats. *Especially* if you have just landed a Greater Command or a Hold Monster because your casting ability lets you do this :D

THF Weapon Choice / Combat Style

I think its important at this point to talk about your combat style and weapon choice.

Without a doubt, if you go down the THF route then you will be using Quarterstaves. Now, I know alot of people slate Quarterstaves (1d6 damage, 20 threat, x2 Crit Multiplier, who wouldn't??), but with the Monk elemental stances and popping off elemental strikes to improves your DPS damage they really are quite nice weapons. Lets add in as well that when your actually striking in combat, you want to be in Fire stance, not Wind Stance. :confused:. Let me explain.

As of Update 5, Wind Stance 1 will give you a 7.5% enhancement bonus to attack speed. And a 2.5% insight bonus to double strike chance. Consider that past level 8 or so you'll be regularly hasted, you gain just your tiny double strike chance (thats 5 double strikes in every 200 melee attacks...).

In Fire stance though, you get the additional +2 Strength (+1 to hit, +2 to damage with THF), and double the Ki generation for use on Elemental strikes. Tasty! And while you still have your Quarterstaff in hand, you can peel off a mob, swap to Water Stance and lay down that Blade Barrier or Greater Command with the extra +1 DC.

Swapping fighting stance and using elemental strikes takes pratice, don't get me wrong.

As for weapons, to me theres only one Quarterstaff worth the hassle. Rahls Might.

Thats a Quarterstaff that has D10 base damage, a x3 Crit multiplier, and does Slash, Pierce and Bludgeoning damage all at the same time. You can also get a version with Force Burst on it, and don't forget that it has Improved Destruction - after your first hit, thats a guaranteed +8 to hit chance for every other strike against them. Its a great weapon and I highly recommend you check it out.

For the Shavarath Devils, you cannot go worng with a Mineral 2 weapon - Keen, Transmuting, Slicing, Holy, Acid Burst, and your choice of Acid Blast / +2 Exceptional Con or +2 Exceptional Wis (For a THF, I'd go for the Con, as you want the Exceptional Wis all the time onm a Tower of Despair ring).

Enhancements

Ok, I'll keep this short and sweet, as I'm sure I'm boring a few readers out there and I'm now cutting into my DDO time tonight typing all this.

For the THF, you've freed up alot of enhancement points, and so you can take the following:

12 - Cleric Wisdom 3
06 - Cleric Charisma 2
06 - Elf Dexterity 2

06 - Radiant Servant 2
06 - Divine Might 3 (DM1 - Radiant Servant Pre-Req)
02 - Improved Turning 2 (Radiant Servant Pre-Req)
03 - Extra Turning 2 (Radiant Servant Pre-Req)
03 - Cleric Heal 2 (Radiant Servant Pre-Req)

06 - Cleric Improved Spell Penetration 2
12 - Cleric Improved Empower Healing 3
10 - Cleric Life Magic 4
10 - Cleric Wand & Scroll Mastery 4
= 80

Notes
Elf Attack / Damage - Obviously no need
Unyielding Sovreignty - No need, Charisma 2 gives you the Radiant Servant Pre-Rwq
Monk Stances / Void Strike - Stances you get for free now, No need for Void strike really.
Improved Recovery 1 / Fists of Light - Absolutely no need, just cramming in something that is sub par compared to your own Empowered Heal spells.

The only thing missing here is taking Prayer of Life line to get critical hit Heals, but meh. Empower Heal will be hitting for an extra 75%, and you'll be 'Turn Healing' alot anyway.

[Arlathen]

Phew! huge post.

Anyways, if you want me to flesh out the THF version with stats ect then give me a shout.

If you still go down the TWF with WSS, then good luck with that and I hope you can make it work for you :)

PS Look me up if your Thelanis way, Asuryen is my own build for a WSS centered type of build.

[wax_on_wax_off]

thank you Arlathen for the excellent post!
It is really awesome to see some of the choices I've made in the build put into perspective.
A few points I would like your opinion on if possible:
- lower AC on the THF build
- not utilising the bonus damage of DMIII as much.
(TWF is equivalent to +16 str, THF is equivalent to +8 str assuming offhand attacks are roughly equivalent)
- not as high an attack bonus - no sovereign, elf enhancements, weapon focus
(TWF lacks OTWF but can easily swap out to a kama if having trouble hitting)
- when comparing stats, strength is 24 of TWF and 28 on THF but with only 1 point of investment difference
(also, 15+3+3+6=27 but easy mistake to make)
- wisdom is 2 points higher on THF but would be equal with same exceptional bonus on TWF and a +3 tome
- what skills would the THF take? Balance and Concentration I assume? No value for UMD?
- is maximise only useful for blade barrier like i assume? Because I think sometimes that i could do without it ...
- is the 3rd level of monk going to be useless? if it is would a level of fighter be better than an extra cleric to get that toughness feat, strength enhancement, toughness enhancement?
- how vital is heighten? I know it's one of my favourite feats on arcanes but there is no web in the cleric spell list.
- my impression of how wind stance was going to work in update 5 was to give 2.5% chance to double strike and +7.5% chance to proc offhand attacks?
- lacking THF feats relegates damage to one foe which (even if because of stupid nerfs it isn't) TWF should be superior at, don't you think?
- monk special attacks will have double affect on TWF compared to THF, i think?
- with THF i would hardly need to be elf, human would be a much superior choice.

I've grown a bit attached to the idea of a shining elf with dual longswords whirling around. Obviously it is a build that is going to have to make some sacrifices somewhere. It was a great post to read of yours, thanks +1

[Arlathen]

I've grown a bit attached to the idea of a shining elf with dual longswords whirling around.

Hi Wax,

Glad the post made you think through some ideas. I'll answer all your points as constructively as I can, but I wanted to pick out your comment highlighted above.

It seems to me the Elf / Monk Centred / TWF with Longswords concept is what you really want to play. Being Cleric is just trying to add icing on top for Healing/Offensive Spell Casting, but you have sacrifice so much to do this.

Far be it from me to tell you what to play, but I would suggest any of the following melee DPS orientated builds would be a much better suit to this playstyle, instead of trying to focus efforts three ways.

- Ranger 12 / Monk 7 / Rogue 1 (Tempest 2 and Tier 2 Monk stances)
- Paladin 14 / Monk 6 (15% Doublestrike, Massive Healing Amp)
- Fighter 12 / Monk 7 / Rogue 1 (My own TWF WSS Build)
- Ranger 12 / Fighter 6 / Monk 2 (Tempest 2 / Kensai 1 & Monk Stances /Strikes)
- Monk 20 (Seriously! - Epic DR! Wind Stance 4! .... so many benefits with staying pure on this one).

These would all be TWF focused builds utilising Elf with twin Longswords in Monk stances. With any of the above builds with Monk 6 or more,

In particular, the Paladin styled build will give you big Criticals, Divine Might, fantastic self healing and the potential for massive healing amplification. Check out the 'Solar Pheonix' build for how this works.

The Ranger based builds will give you the full 100% Offhand attacks by going Tempest 2. Tempest 2 is the new Tempest 1 in my opinion, with update 5. People want there full attack cycle even with offhand attacks, reduced offhand penalties and additional Shield AC, Ranger buffs .... this is really a good split to go for.

On the Fighter/Ranger orientated builds that have spare feats, you can sneak in the Least and Lesser Dragonmarks to give yourself self-cast Displacements (People may criticise me for this idea as you can craft Displacement clickies in Shroud and UMD Scrolls of it, but theres nothing like having 5 or 6 2 minute Displacements to supplement your defensive abilities with without needing to grind the Shroud for crafting).

Of course, Monk 6/7 offers whole slew of benefits if your staying centred. As well as Wisdom AC you'll get +2 Centred AC, Increased Movement speed, Slowfall, Evasion of course, 3 bonus feats for Martial Arts feats, Immunity to Disease. Monk 7 gives you the Wholeness of Body feat and Improved Recovery 2 enhancement. You'll also get Tier 2 Wind Stance for 10% Enhancement bonus to attack speed, so none hasted it'll be like the old Tempest speed boost :D

I can offer comments or advice on any of the above builds, but WSS is very new really and theres going to be lots of 'Flavour of the Month' builds until things settle down and work out whats really viable at end game.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Late night for me now and have polished off a bottle of wine.

If i was attached to that single idea i could simply remodel the build to be strength based rather than wis based and be quite effective. However, my original build idea (which there is a link to in the build) was titled "TWF Drow RS w/ DM IV concept" and has developed from there. The unlimited divine mights from radiant servant was the cornerstone of the build and at a point in the development the transition to an elf with longswords rather than a drow with kama/rapiers developed. TBH ill probably make a monk/paladin build with DMII too which as you point out is an excellent synergy but im quite fond of my caster classes and have been trying to find a way to make this idea work satisfactorily, even if some sacrifices have to be made.

I'm looking forward to your response to the points that i brought up so that i can develop my idea further and come up with a polished concept for my TR, even if it is one that has to make some painful sacrifices.