Fixing the Reaver's Refuge Dragontouched Lottery

[Aspenor]

Let's face it, Turbine, players hate this system and you should too. The Reaver's Refuge has been a veritable ghost town since an update or two after its release. The fact that you "expected" us to make one armor that was "acceptable" and then another suit that is "perfect" is no excuse for keeping this system in its current state.

I have a couple suggestions.

Allow us to purchase identification of runes for 5, 10, 15 (eldritch, tempest, and sovereign respectively) draconic runes from an NPC, or create an altar expressly designed to identify a rune when the draconic runes and the rune to be identified are placed on it. However, I think the BEST option for this mechanic would be for each altar: eldritch, tempest, and sovereign to automatically identify a rune if it is placed on the altar with the appropriate number of draconic runes. This allows a player to choose whether he/she wishes to put that rune on their armor. This prevents a player from "going backward" in their armor crafting by putting an even worse effect on their armor than there was previously (like a melee putting Potency VII on an armor where they had a somewhat useful guard).

Allow "lower tier" runes to be placed in "higher tier" slots, if desired. What I mean is: allow Eldritch runes to be placed in Tempest and Sovereign rune slots, and allow tempest runes to be placed in Sovereign rune slots, if the player chooses to do so. This should not be considered a balance issue because players would actually be putting less powerful effects in slots where there could be more powerful effects.

Both of these suggestions would lessen the frustration of creating a useful set of armor, and they would present players with more options in an already fairly constrained system.

[Vhlad]

That won't actually reduce the grind though, and it doesn't help much with progression.

i.e. if it takes 285 sovereign runes before you get dodge 3, then even if they're all identified you're still grinding out 285 runes. Or if you're without dodge 3 after 285 runes, you've made no progress: the next rune you pull has no greater chance of being dodge 3; you're no closer to your goal than you were at rune #1.

There should be a reasonable way to generate a reward list of 10 sovereign runes to choose from, with no repeats and each one identified. A fully complete list would be ideal, i.e. play the random lotto and crunch all your runes as you get them, or save up 20 sovereign runes and turn all 20 in for a complete identified list to choose from.

[Aspenor]

That won't actually reduce the grind though, and it doesn't help much with progression.

i.e. if it takes 285 sovereign runes before you get dodge 3, then even if they're all identified you're still grinding out 285 runes. Or if you're without dodge 3 after 285 runes, you've made no progress: the next rune you pull has no greater chance of being dodge 3; you're no closer to your goal than you were at rune #1.

There should be a reasonable way to generate a reward list of 10 sovereign runes to choose from, with no repeats and each one identified.

I never claimed it would reduce the grind, I said that it would reduce the frustrations that go along with said grind. These frustrations are, in my opinion, a bigger problem than the grind itself.

[Vhlad]

I never claimed it would reduce the grind, I said that it would reduce the frustrations that go along with said grind. These frustrations are, in my opinion, a bigger problem than the grind itself.

You can currently save up all your runes and transfer your character to lammania to identify them.

[RequiemVampie]

This isn't the first time such a suggestion has been posted.

Yes, it is a real pain. My paladin has yet to run it to get his armor and he's level 19. To make matters worse, I gave up on my wizard's robe after running SoS once. Why? She wound up getting an Incite +10% rune on her robe. No thanks. I put it in the bank and haven't bothered fixing it yet.

Yes, the system needs to be changed and hen people would run it more. Its just too much of a grind to get what you want on your armor.

[Merlocke]

You can currently save up all your runes and transfer your character to lammania to identify them.

clever.;)

[Halock]

Always in favor of helping take some of the frustration out of reavers crafting, as said above, the grind isnt the problem, the frustration that goes along with it is.

[Aspenor]

You can currently save up all your runes and transfer your character to lammania to identify them.

Clever, yes, but not something that should be necessary.

[Turial]

....
Allow "lower tier" runes to be placed in "higher tier" slots, if desired. What I mean is: allow Eldritch runes to be placed in Tempest and Sovereign rune slots, and allow tempest runes to be placed in Sovereign rune slots, if the player chooses to do so. This should not be considered a balance issue because players would actually be putting less powerful effects in slots where there could be more powerful effects.
....

I like this one better than the first one.

I still think that once identified we should remember what runes do.

[Aspenor]

I like this one better than the first one.

I still think that once identified we should remember what runes do.

I concur, actually I was making this a dual suggestion. Both should be implemented.

[TheGreatEye]

If I had a choice, I would say the runes should be identified when they are pulled. No one likes putting a rune on that is a step backwards, its just plain annoying. Why should we pay? I doubt few if any of the player base enjoys this crafting mechanic. Come on Turbine, dragontouched is sorely in need of a rework.

[Phidius]

I fail to see any reason to keep these runes a secret until used... unless the intention is to frustrate and annoy players.

Making the runes identified in the chest would go a long way towards inspiring me to create and join groups for these quests.

[daniel7]

For flavor reasons:

A. Each type of rune should vary, visually, so that your toon learns to identify copies after each new rune type is used.

B. Each rune should visually change your armor design.

[Irinis]

For flavor reasons:

A. Each type of rune should vary, visually, so that your toon learns to identify copies after each new rune type is used.

B. Each rune should visually change your armor design.

A. Agreed.

B. Agreed.

I think Turbine misunderstood draconic magic, or wanted it to be "mysterious" but somehow failed to translate "mysterious" to "awesome" because obviously even draconic runes are still RUNES. It's an alphabet, but we only ever see one glyph, that just doesn't make sense. Plus, there are definitely Dragon NPCs in the game who could identify them.

Reaver's Refuge crafting is simply lazy quest design.

[RobbinB]

Given the time since reaver's refuge crafting was introduced, the huge variety of forum posts and complaints, how about regardless of whether we get a change to the crafting we get some acknowledgement from devs regarding this topic.

1. Do the devs acknowledge that the current implimentation of reaver's refuge crafting is less than optimal, or do they feel it works as they intended and see no reason to make changes?

2. Are the devs willing to acknowledge that the majority of the player base is against the current implimentation, or do they feel this isn't the case?

I'm not sure what frustrates me more, the crappy system or the wall of silence regarding it from the dev team. (That, and the fact that the changes that have been made since conception were a step in the wrong direction and make the system mostly worse, not better. Grab a clue already guys.)

[Khanyth]

I'll be in the vast minority:

I love the way it's setup. It's like a slot machine. It's a challenge. It's random. It's not something that you have total control over and can be so cut and dry.

Oh, and farming it isn't that bad. Especially PotH... a good sorcerer can solo it no prob... I regularily 3 man it as a barb with a cleric and a sorcerer. And it's not that tough to find groups for it.

It's a nice break from the "I did x, y, and z, so I should get results a, b, and c" crafting that DDO has.

Leave it alone.

[Darwinnon]

Always in favor of helping take some of the frustration out of reavers crafting, as said above, the grind isnt the problem, the frustration that goes along with it is.

Speak for yourself! :)

Get rid of that damned lottery!

Less grinding & farming in high lvl quests!

...pretty please, with sugar on top?! :)

[Ollathir]

For flavor reasons:

A. Each type of rune should vary, visually, so that your toon learns to identify copies after each new rune type is used.

B. Each rune should visually change your armor design.

Agree. Mentioned something like this so long ago... that just adds creativity and destabilizes the "luck" mechanic though.

[Valindria]

Please post feedback here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=254317

[elricken]

Let's face it, Turbine, players hate this system and you should too. The Reaver's Refuge has been a veritable ghost town since an update or two after its release. The fact that you "expected" us to make one armor that was "acceptable" and then another suit that is "perfect" is no excuse for keeping this system in its current state.

I have a couple suggestions.

Allow us to purchase identification of runes for 5, 10, 15 (eldritch, tempest, and sovereign respectively) draconic runes from an NPC, or create an altar expressly designed to identify a rune when the draconic runes and the rune to be identified are placed on it. However, I think the BEST option for this mechanic would be for each altar: eldritch, tempest, and sovereign to automatically identify a rune if it is placed on the altar with the appropriate number of draconic runes. This allows a player to choose whether he/she wishes to put that rune on their armor. This prevents a player from "going backward" in their armor crafting by putting an even worse effect on their armor than there was previously (like a melee putting Potency VII on an armor where they had a somewhat useful guard).

Allow "lower tier" runes to be placed in "higher tier" slots, if desired. What I mean is: allow Eldritch runes to be placed in Tempest and Sovereign rune slots, and allow tempest runes to be placed in Sovereign rune slots, if the player chooses to do so. This should not be considered a balance issue because players would actually be putting less powerful effects in slots where there could be more powerful effects.

Both of these suggestions would lessen the frustration of creating a useful set of armor, and they would present players with more options in an already fairly constrained system.

I think an implementation of aspenor's post as well as weeding out some of the useless effects would go a long way towards me working on DT again. I made one set of "decent" armor for my sorc and will not go back until the lottery system has been removed. I grind enough for epic items, the DT is just too much.

[Bloodhaven]

we can all agree DT crafting is broken and needs to be reworked.

[bruha118]

the worst is lionheart that thing procs more than any other guard ive seen....its WAY overpowered and should be nerfed instead of twf ;p

[Kalari]

I'll be in the vast minority:

I love the way it's setup. It's like a slot machine. It's a challenge. It's random. It's not something that you have total control over and can be so cut and dry.

Oh, and farming it isn't that bad. Especially PotH... a good sorcerer can solo it no prob... I regularily 3 man it as a barb with a cleric and a sorcerer. And it's not that tough to find groups for it.

It's a nice break from the "I did x, y, and z, so I should get results a, b, and c" crafting that DDO has.

Leave it alone.

Man I wish I had your prescription for rose colored glasses mine broke after it took six months of grinding to get my clerics lorrik's champion. I though this game was about fun crafting for the shroud is about the limit of work i'll do because at least I can put the results I want to it (well if I dont craft drunk that is) but this lotto system is not fun in any way to me it became a system of farming quests till I couldnt stand them saving up tons of useless runes (this was before they changed it where you could grind the runes down even) and trying to figure out what to keep since its a one shot deal. Yeah this system stinks fix it or give arcanes identify so I could use my services to help those end their frustration heck I wouldnt even charge for it because I know the pain of trying to get decent armor from there and I wouldnt wish it even on people I hate from this forums.

[Srozbun]

Man I wish I had your prescription for rose colored glasses mine broke after it took six months of grinding to get my clerics lorrik's champion. I though this game was about fun crafting for the shroud is about the limit of work i'll do because at least I can put the results I want to it (well if I dont craft drunk that is) but this lotto system is not fun in any way to me it became a system of farming quests till I couldnt stand them saving up tons of useless runes (this was before they changed it where you could grind the runes down even) and trying to figure out what to keep since its a one shot deal. Yeah this system stinks fix it or give arcanes identify so I could use my services to help those end their frustration heck I wouldnt even charge for it because I know the pain of trying to get decent armor from there and I wouldnt wish it even on people I hate from this forums.

Agreed. In a week once I'm off my monastery ransack timer I will be duo farming it with my brother 8 times until my next ransack. I will be paying him 1 million gp and he will be passing me all his eldritches. This will net me 32 ADDITIONAL eldritches (I have 20+ atm) and if I STILL don't roll +5 resis I will probably never enter reaver's refuge again.

[sirgog]

I've always thought they should do it like this:


Quest run on Normal: As present system
Hard: Runes are identified, bind to character on acquire, and can be traded within the chest
Elite: Runes are identified and unbound. Get a second Resistance +5 rune? Great, trade it to someone else for that Bloodstone you can never seem to loot.

Most people need to use mana pots to beat those quests on Elite - Turbine have got to be happy with that too.

[esoitl]

I'll be in the vast minority:

I love the way it's setup. It's like a slot machine. It's a challenge. It's random. It's not something that you have total control over and can be so cut and dry.

Oh, and farming it isn't that bad. Especially PotH... a good sorcerer can solo it no prob... I regularily 3 man it as a barb with a cleric and a sorcerer. And it's not that tough to find groups for it.

It's a nice break from the "I did x, y, and z, so I should get results a, b, and c" crafting that DDO has.

Leave it alone.

Whether you're able to solo the quests or not has little to do with the crafting system.

The fact that there is no way to tell the effect a rune will have until after the effect takes place is a risk many players won't want to take. Not every player has a character that is able to solo, nor are they willing at all times to sit and grind out quests solo just to get a proper rune.

I'm a semi serious player myself, and the majority of players are likely in the same boat as I. Crafting for a good item shouldn't be so easy that the items are given away, but also should be obtainable by a semi serious player if they put in some effort. I've filled out one Dragon Touched suit so far. I got lucky and hit a decent guard effect while the other two tiers don't provide much benefit(10-15 Eldritch and Tempest runes, 2 Sovereign).

I put my time in to make a couple of Greensteel items and saw a good return for the time invested. The result for the time put in the armour though doesn't match. I know I'm not going to run Stealer of Souls enough to get a decent sample of runes and therefore that means I'm unlikely to change my Sovereign rune slot, even though it's not what I want because the risk/reward just isn't there. I'm not thrilled on the prospects of changing the other two tiers either, just because there is a larger chance it will become worse opposed to getting better.
I've invested a fair ammount of time into this item already and putting more time into it may or may not be beneficial... and you think that this is a good system?

I don't mind looting for certain items, even if it doesn't produce results. The hope of getting something useful is still there and for crafting at least it's a build up that you know if you put the time in, eventually you can get what you want. Dragontouched crafting really fits neither of those grinds...

There are possible solutions to this, some have been posted already and they are reasonable enough. Even an option of declining the upgrade(losing the rune of course) would go a long way to help players like myself feel like they can actually get something out of the system with some effort put into it instead of putting in time to merely play dice with the upgrades.

The system either forces a major investment of time or the acceptance of a half rate item which isn't the makings of a good system.

[pasterqb]

I would rather see them changed from BTC to BTA but I do agree that some identification method is needed.

Also why the heck is there upgrading but no downgrading? A couple of my friends went to take me to SoS and they were nice and gave me their runes. Problem is I got exactly what I wanted from my first sov rune and now have 2 that are worthless. I can't trade them, transfer them to another char, or downgrade them. (I am aware I am super lucky and you all hate me for it). :(

I figure if they can make epic tokens BTA they can do the same for runes.

[Khanyth]

This is how I view it. I may be alone in my opinion, but it is what it is:

DT armor is nothing different than say Madstone boot or Bloodstone/Spectral Glove farming (I use these, because these are the one's that I am most familiar with)

- You enter Sands and run the undead section, hoping to get the chest with the Bloodstone in it. If you do, great. If you don't, you re-run it as often as you like until you get sick of it, get an alternative, or get the Bloodstone.

- You run Offering of Blood, and do the beginning section, hoping to get the chest with the Spectral Gloves. If you do, great. If you don't, you re-run it as often as you like until you get sick of it, get an alternative, or get the gloves.

- You enter Reavers Fate and run the raid, hoping to get the Madstone boots in the big chest. If you do, great. If you don't, you re-run it as often as you like until you get sick of it, get an alternative, or get the Boots.

- You enter Reavers Refuge and run the 3 quests, hoping to get the runes that you want. If you do, great. If you don't, you re-run them as often as you like until you get sick of it, get an alternative, or get the rune.

Rune farming is no different than these. Is there an element of disappointment when the rune you get doesn't turn out to be what you want? Sure. Is there an element of disappointment when the chest you get doesn't turn out to have the raid or normal item that you want? Sure.

And before some of you say it, I have gotten exceptional int/cha, int/cha +6, spell pen VI, and other caster items on my barb.... many many many times. I'm on my +60th run of PotH.

Some of you may say: "But Khanyth, my _______ is too squishy if I get a bad rune effect, I'll be squashed. My _____ can't handle it if I get an undesirable effect. My DT armor will be worthless and there's no point trying to fix it."

To which I say, BS.

Fact 1: you were wearing armor before Reavers. Wear that if you have to and fix the DT.

Fact 2: it is not hard to run Prey on the Hunter 6 times with a decent group on casual. So long as no one does anything silly or screws up too much, you can do a run in under 15 minutes (my personal record is 9) You get 100% tempest rune drop on casual and you can't ransack the final chest.

Fact 3: 6 runs is close to enough to get 50 draco runes that you can buy an eldritch rune. 6 runs is enough to grind 3 tempest into 1 sovereign rune. 6 runs of Prey is all it takes to get all 3 runes. No traps, limited fighting, and all you need is a cleric, melee, and a fireslinger. If you're a fire slinger and a F2Stoner, you can do it on your own

The DT system is no more of a lottery than running Reavers Fate.
The DT system is no more of a lottery than running the undead section farming for a Bloodstone.

Besides, it is not that hard to do. Tedious, sure. Hard, no.

If you want to make it easier by making it so you can pick your rune effect, then make the quest harder. A hell of a lot harder. Double the mobs, trap the s$$t out of everything, put in an obscenely unfair timer, may the mobs hit a hell of a lot harder, give no rune drops on anything but elite.

All you'll do is flip the problem: people won't play RR because the lottery needs fixing. People won't play RR because it'll be too easy.

Seriously: RR is fine. The lottery is fine. Leave it alone

[/rant] Sorry if I went overboard

[Kza]

I've always thought they should do it like this:


Quest run on Normal: As present system
Hard: Runes are identified, bind to character on acquire, and can be traded within the chest
Elite: Runes are identified and unbound. Get a second Resistance +5 rune? Great, trade it to someone else for that Bloodstone you can never seem to loot.

Most people need to use mana pots to beat those quests on Elite - Turbine have got to be happy with that too.

Must say that this system appeal to me. /signed

[sirgog]

This is how I view it. I may be alone in my opinion, but it is what it is:

DT armor is nothing different than say Madstone boot or Bloodstone/Spectral Glove farming (I use these, because these are the one's that I am most familiar with)

- You enter Sands and run the undead section, hoping to get the chest with the Bloodstone in it. If you do, great. If you don't, you re-run it as often as you like until you get sick of it, get an alternative, or get the Bloodstone.


Here's the two differences. Taking your other example of Spectral Gloves.

Currently:
- You start wearing +5 Dex gloves. They are kinda nice on your build, but Spectrals would be better.
- You enter OOB, and run through, opening every chest that can have the Gloves. You either get it (great!), or give up and go without, or give up, and trade a different item that's precious to your character (maybe a Large Devil Scale) to another player for the Spectrals.
- You then put the +5 Dex gloves on the Auction House, and walk away with a cool twenty thousand plat.
- Much later, you get something better than Spectrals in your glove slot (perhaps Tumbleweed as a ring and a tier 3 Shroud item in your gloves slot). You then trade the set of Spectrals that served you well for eight levels to another player, and pick up a Large Devil Scale for it.

Were it like DT:
- You start wearing +5 Dex gloves. They are kinda nice on your build, but Spectrals would be better.
- You enter OOB, and run through, opening every chest that can have the Gloves. You loot a set of gloves that might be Spectrals. You equip them to find out, irrevocably destroying your +5 Dex gloves in the process. Maybe they are Spectrals (great!), or maybe they are yet another +3 Dexterity Skills or Magma Surge guard, leaving you worse off than you were beforehand.
- Assuming you got the Spectrals, you then look at the +5 Dex gloves on the Auction House, and think of what you could buy with twenty thousand plat, the going price of the gloves you trashed in the hope of getting Spectrals.
- Much later, you get something better than Spectrals in your glove slot (perhaps Tumbleweed as a ring and a tier 3 Shroud item in your gloves slot). You irrevocably lose the Spectral Gloves in the process, and think of how you'll now have to farm the Shroud another 4.25 times to get a Large Devil Scale.

[bobbryan2]

Just... let us see 'em in the chest.

[Khanyth]

Here's the two differences. Taking your other example of Spectral Gloves.

Currently:
- You start wearing +5 Dex gloves. They are kinda nice on your build, but Spectrals would be better.
- You enter OOB, and run through, opening every chest that can have the Gloves. You either get it (great!), or give up and go without, or give up, and trade a different item that's precious to your character (maybe a Large Devil Scale) to another player for the Spectrals.
- You then put the +5 Dex gloves on the Auction House, and walk away with a cool twenty thousand plat.
- Much later, you get something better than Spectrals in your glove slot (perhaps Tumbleweed as a ring and a tier 3 Shroud item in your gloves slot). You then trade the set of Spectrals that served you well for eight levels to another player, and pick up a Large Devil Scale for it.

Were it like DT:
- You start wearing +5 Dex gloves. They are kinda nice on your build, but Spectrals would be better.
- You enter OOB, and run through, opening every chest that can have the Gloves. You loot a set of gloves that might be Spectrals. You equip them to find out, irrevocably destroying your +5 Dex gloves in the process. Maybe they are Spectrals (great!), or maybe they are yet another +3 Dexterity Skills or Magma Surge guard, leaving you worse off than you were beforehand.
- Assuming you got the Spectrals, you then look at the +5 Dex gloves on the Auction House, and think of what you could buy with twenty thousand plat, the going price of the gloves you trashed in the hope of getting Spectrals.
- Much later, you get something better than Spectrals in your glove slot (perhaps Tumbleweed as a ring and a tier 3 Shroud item in your gloves slot). You irrevocably lose the Spectral Gloves in the process, and think of how you'll now have to farm the Shroud another 4.25 times to get a Large Devil Scale.


I disagree.

See, before you entered RR, you had a set of armor. You didn't enter naked. When you did your 3 flagging quests and SoS, you got another set of armor. So, if you screw up your DT armor and you need to rerun a quest because the rune you got wasn't to your liking, you could always put the old one on, and run a quest again. You don't have to give up anything.

Unless I misunderstand what you are saying.

[Aerendil]

Put a vendor in that SELLS the runes you want (i.e. Lorrik's Champion costs X amount of sov. runes; GFL costs X number of eldritch runes), allowing you to pick and choose *exactly* what you want on your robe.

Have set costs for each type, rising for the more sought after runes, and lower for the not-so-popular ones.
Set the costs so that it requires multiple runs to grind out all of the runes you need, but not dozens, or even hundreds, of runs to grind out what you need. Nobody wants that amount of repetition (i.e. Shroud).

While we're at it, introduce about a dozen skins for *each* type of dragontouched armour, allowing us some variety in appearance. Again, this could be done by purchase prices if need be, allowing us to either go with the generic appearance (no cost) or to pay extra for different skins.

Ideally I'd love to have the armour's appearance defined by the runes used (i.e. DT Plate with Earthguard may take on a crystalline / earthy appearance, with shards of rock, or crystals, in it; a magma surge robe may be black, with crimson red lines forming patterns), but that's not bloody likely I don't think.

[ArichValtrahn]

Ive only been playing since December and Ive already seen this discussion pop up multiple times. How long has DT been in the game like this? I cant imagine they care at all about fixing this system given the complete lack of response from the devs about it.

Based on DT armor, GS crafting, TOD boots, etc.. the end game is all about grind. Given how prevalent it is, you can only assume its intentional.

[Irinis]

Ive only been playing since December and Ive already seen this discussion pop up multiple times. How long has DT been in the game like this? I cant imagine they care at all about fixing this system given the complete lack of response from the devs about it.

Based on DT armor, GS crafting, TOD boots, etc.. the end game is all about grind. Given how prevalent it is, you can only assume its intentional.

The devs might not care. We the players care. That there are a ton of threads about it with zero response is just disappointing.

[ArichValtrahn]

The devs might not care. We the players care. That there are a ton of threads about it with zero response is just disappointing.

I agree whole heartedly. I am working on DT armor for my third character as we speak and its one of the most idiotic systems I have ever seen in a popular game. Ive just accepted the fact that the devs dont care.

[Khanyth]

Again.... my opinion only...

I just don't see how it is so different, and thus so bad, that everyone hates it.

You put a rune on your armor. You don't get what you want. You run the quest again and 45 minutes later, you change it. Or you gather a whole lot of runes, so this way, if you don't like it, you just use another rune right away.

One bad rune doesn't spoil the whole bunch. really. It doesn't.

[Do'Urden]

I agree whole heartedly. I am working on DT armor for my third character as we speak and its one of the most idiotic systems I have ever seen in a popular game. Ive just accepted the fact that the devs dont care.

They don't care or possibly they are firmly (and wrongly) of the opinion that the mechanic is just fine as it is. Do you have any idea how long Eladrin proudly claimed the Abbot quest was perfectly fine and beatable without exploits before changing it? Several years....

All you have to do to evaluate Refuge popularity is to go hang out in the single Refuge instance on your server and let me know how many people pass through the tavern. Most likely the ones there are XP grinding as opposed to crafting DT armor.

CHANGE IT PLEASE...lots of decent suggestions already in this thread and the numerous forgotten / dead threads on the subject.

:(:mad::(:mad::(:mad:

[Daggaz]

I fail to see any reason to keep these runes a secret until used... unless the intention is to frustrate and annoy players.

Making the runes identified in the chest would go a long way towards inspiring me to create and join groups for these quests.

Yeah, this right here is a great idea. Now people would really want to fill out that group, as you have six hands on a chest, and the runes could be traded before looting. That alone could conceivably reduce grinding times by a factor of six. It also solves the problem of "going backwards" in your crafting. Not to mention, grinding a quest for a rune, only to get the same exact effect.

If turbine actually implemented this, the next step would be to put some more variations on the runes.. superior potency VI (the original idea as posted by devs was to allow variation by taking common effects and putting them on an uncommon slot, ie body armor, and for some reason this very common effect is not available) and superior stability (this one has no love in the game at all) are two I can think of off the top of my true neutral cleric head.

[Valindria]

This is how I view it. I may be alone in my opinion, but it is what it is:

DT armor is nothing different than say Madstone boot or Bloodstone/Spectral Glove farming (I use these, because these are the one's that I am most familiar with)

- You enter Sands and run the undead section, hoping to get the chest with the Bloodstone in it. If you do, great. If you don't, you re-run it as often as you like until you get sick of it, get an alternative, or get the Bloodstone.

- You run Offering of Blood, and do the beginning section, hoping to get the chest with the Spectral Gloves. If you do, great. If you don't, you re-run it as often as you like until you get sick of it, get an alternative, or get the gloves.

- You enter Reavers Fate and run the raid, hoping to get the Madstone boots in the big chest. If you do, great. If you don't, you re-run it as often as you like until you get sick of it, get an alternative, or get the Boots.

- You enter Reavers Refuge and run the 3 quests, hoping to get the runes that you want. If you do, great. If you don't, you re-run them as often as you like until you get sick of it, get an alternative, or get the rune.

Rune farming is no different than these. Is there an element of disappointment when the rune you get doesn't turn out to be what you want? Sure. Is there an element of disappointment when the chest you get doesn't turn out to have the raid or normal item that you want? Sure.

And before some of you say it, I have gotten exceptional int/cha, int/cha +6, spell pen VI, and other caster items on my barb.... many many many times. I'm on my +60th run of PotH.

Some of you may say: "But Khanyth, my _______ is too squishy if I get a bad rune effect, I'll be squashed. My _____ can't handle it if I get an undesirable effect. My DT armor will be worthless and there's no point trying to fix it."

To which I say, BS.

Fact 1: you were wearing armor before Reavers. Wear that if you have to and fix the DT.

Fact 2: it is not hard to run Prey on the Hunter 6 times with a decent group on casual. So long as no one does anything silly or screws up too much, you can do a run in under 15 minutes (my personal record is 9) You get 100% tempest rune drop on casual and you can't ransack the final chest.

Fact 3: 6 runs is close to enough to get 50 draco runes that you can buy an eldritch rune. 6 runs is enough to grind 3 tempest into 1 sovereign rune. 6 runs of Prey is all it takes to get all 3 runes. No traps, limited fighting, and all you need is a cleric, melee, and a fireslinger. If you're a fire slinger and a F2Stoner, you can do it on your own

The DT system is no more of a lottery than running Reavers Fate.
The DT system is no more of a lottery than running the undead section farming for a Bloodstone.

Besides, it is not that hard to do. Tedious, sure. Hard, no.

If you want to make it easier by making it so you can pick your rune effect, then make the quest harder. A hell of a lot harder. Double the mobs, trap the s$$t out of everything, put in an obscenely unfair timer, may the mobs hit a hell of a lot harder, give no rune drops on anything but elite.

All you'll do is flip the problem: people won't play RR because the lottery needs fixing. People won't play RR because it'll be too easy.

Seriously: RR is fine. The lottery is fine. Leave it alone

[/rant] Sorry if I went overboard


There is still one issue IMO that is overlooked in your setup. Once you get the armor you like there is little reason to rerun the quests. With the items that can be traded it's obvious. With the raids there is still the 20 completion bonus item. Now it's not perfect because once you have a bloodstone are you going to keep grinding for another? Maybe/Maybe not. But if someone asks for help it's less of a big deal. If you have your perfect armor and someone asks for help you either help by giving the rune to them, or make up an excuse to not help.

I strongly believe the smallest fix that would add the most value is to make all of the runes bind to account. I started a thread on that. I also started a feedback thread that must be too long because people CBA to fill it out.

[Grendyll]

This is how I view it. I may be alone in my opinion, but it is what it is:

DT armor is nothing different than say Madstone boot or Bloodstone/Spectral Glove farming (I use these, because these are the one's that I am most familiar with)

- You enter Sands and run the undead section, hoping to get the chest with the Bloodstone in it. If you do, great. If you don't, you re-run it as often as you like until you get sick of it, get an alternative, or get the Bloodstone.

- You run Offering of Blood, and do the beginning section, hoping to get the chest with the Spectral Gloves. If you do, great. If you don't, you re-run it as often as you like until you get sick of it, get an alternative, or get the gloves.

- You enter Reavers Fate and run the raid, hoping to get the Madstone boots in the big chest. If you do, great. If you don't, you re-run it as often as you like until you get sick of it, get an alternative, or get the Boots.

- You enter Reavers Refuge and run the 3 quests, hoping to get the runes that you want. If you do, great. If you don't, you re-run them as often as you like until you get sick of it, get an alternative, or get the rune.

Rune farming is no different than these. Is there an element of disappointment when the rune you get doesn't turn out to be what you want? Sure. Is there an element of disappointment when the chest you get doesn't turn out to have the raid or normal item that you want? Sure.

And before some of you say it, I have gotten exceptional int/cha, int/cha +6, spell pen VI, and other caster items on my barb.... many many many times. I'm on my +60th run of PotH.

Some of you may say: "But Khanyth, my _______ is too squishy if I get a bad rune effect, I'll be squashed. My _____ can't handle it if I get an undesirable effect. My DT armor will be worthless and there's no point trying to fix it."

To which I say, BS.

Fact 1: you were wearing armor before Reavers. Wear that if you have to and fix the DT.

Fact 2: it is not hard to run Prey on the Hunter 6 times with a decent group on casual. So long as no one does anything silly or screws up too much, you can do a run in under 15 minutes (my personal record is 9) You get 100% tempest rune drop on casual and you can't ransack the final chest.

Fact 3: 6 runs is close to enough to get 50 draco runes that you can buy an eldritch rune. 6 runs is enough to grind 3 tempest into 1 sovereign rune. 6 runs of Prey is all it takes to get all 3 runes. No traps, limited fighting, and all you need is a cleric, melee, and a fireslinger. If you're a fire slinger and a F2Stoner, you can do it on your own

The DT system is no more of a lottery than running Reavers Fate.
The DT system is no more of a lottery than running the undead section farming for a Bloodstone.

Besides, it is not that hard to do. Tedious, sure. Hard, no.

If you want to make it easier by making it so you can pick your rune effect, then make the quest harder. A hell of a lot harder. Double the mobs, trap the s$$t out of everything, put in an obscenely unfair timer, may the mobs hit a hell of a lot harder, give no rune drops on anything but elite.

All you'll do is flip the problem: people won't play RR because the lottery needs fixing. People won't play RR because it'll be too easy.

Seriously: RR is fine. The lottery is fine. Leave it alone

[/rant] Sorry if I went overboard

Getting 2 chances at a bloodstone takes 5 minutes solo.

Getting 3 chances at spectral gloves takes 10-15 minutes solo.

Getting a chance at madstone boots takes 15 minutes in a raid group.

If I don't get a bloodstone after X runs, I can buy one on the auction house. Once I have a bloodstone, I can pass it around to my various characters.

If I don't get spectral gloves after X runs, I can buy one on the auction house. Once I have spectral gloves, I can pass them around to my various characters.

If I don't get madstone boots after 20 runs, I have an extremely high chance of getting them in the 20th reward list. If my comrades do not need madstone boots and they receive them in the chest, they can pass them to me because they can clearly identify the madstone boots as something they do not need.

There is a world of difference in the grind factor required to achieve any of these 3 items and the grind factor required to acquire a satisfactory set of Dragon-Touched armor.

Stealer of Souls is a virtual slot machine that takes an hour to pull the lever with a 3% payout chance, there is never any real "progress" made toward a reward.

[Halock]

Again.... my opinion only...

I just don't see how it is so different, and thus so bad, that everyone hates it.

You put a rune on your armor. You don't get what you want. You run the quest again and 45 minutes later, you change it. Or you gather a whole lot of runes, so this way, if you don't like it, you just use another rune right away.

One bad rune doesn't spoil the whole bunch. really. It doesn't.

It is different because you can actually take steps back instead of forward, in fact, more often than not you will take steps back. That is the major difference and what i would like to see eliminated.

You lose nothing farming a bloodstone, spectral gloves, etc you can lose a decent but not the effect you want for a totally useless effects on dragontouched armor