Shroud Impatience - Curious

[Bengalih]

I was on this evening for a few minutes wanting to do a shroud run. I was only half-heartedly looking because even though I wanted to run, I was helping my wife with some things and knew I couldn't actually commit to a group. Anyway, I was still looking to see if there were any Shroud groups up.

There were two actually, each with about 5 people in the group so far. What struck me as strange is that one of the LFMs said something to the effect of "No DDoor...To Completion!" (for sake of full disclosure, that wasn't exactly it...but something very close to that effect.)

Now I look for Shroud runs a lot (been farming mats these days), and usually an LFM says something quite to the contrary, like "DDoor at End", or simply doesn't say anything at all about it. Every single run I've been on people wait at the end for those that don't want to finish to DDoor or recall out (with the exception of one or two runs with overly excited players).

So, I was very curious, why someone would care if I finished the quest at not, as long as I stuck around until Harry was dead. Following is the conversation I had with the party leader. I have obviously removed all names, and included some commentary (in italics) as well to make things clear.




me: 'just out of curiosity, you seriously don't have the ability to wait 15 seconds after harry dies for people to ddoor out?'

(This might have sounded a little antagonistic, but I was honestly not trying to start a fight, just curious about why?!?!.)

player: 'i dont like pikers'
player: 'lotters pike'

(I can only assume he meant "looters" here)

me: 'you don't pike the quest when you ddoor... you leave after harry is dead'

player: 'no you pike when you loot the chest along the way while we are ahead killing all the mobs'

(I was starting to get really confused here, since I didn't see what looting chests had to do with piking)

me: 'I ddoor out all the time, and usually have one of the highest kill counts'

(just to clarify: I meant that I usually have a high kill count NOT COUNTING the casters, who usually FoD and Wail almost everything in part 1)

player: 'then you dont beat on the portals which you should'

(He would probably be correct in saying that, if I REALLY had a caster kill count of like 60+, but I decided to drop that argument as it wasn't really important and I didn't clarify).

me: 'are you just doing part 1?'

(I asked this since his previous comment about not portal beating made me think that maybe I didn't have the chance to kill things AFTER part 1)

player: ''completion only..!!!'

me: 'you really have no clue man....'

(Ok, so maybe that was a little unwarranted, but at this point I really felt like what he was saying was that if I DDoor out at the end, then I don't contribute to the quest)

player: 'i have run 2000 shrouds so yes I do understand teh quest'

me: 'then I have no idea how you can think that someone can't contribute 100% and just want to ddor out to farm it again after harry is dead'

me: 'you yourself obviously have done it many times, as if you have run it 2000 times that means about 6000 days, which is impossible if you completed each time'

(2000 completions x ~3 day timer = 6000 days = 16+ years)

player: 'because you are looting on part 1 while i vorpal on part 2 and solve puzzle on 3 while you are looting on part 2 and vopraling mobs on 4 while you loot on 3 and waiting for you to loot when i could go into part 5'

(ok..starting to get a bit clearer)

me: so are you saying you don't loot any of the chests at all? except the last two?'

player: 'i have 13 characters.. at times have had 12 on timer'

(Ok, revision to above math. 16+ years / 13 characters = 2000 runs possible in about 1.25 years, if done consistently. Man... I thought I played alot)

player: 'we loot chests at end'

me: 'but only those 2? you don't loot any of the other chests?'

player: 'you can go through portals back to all parts and loot all chests at end'

(seriously?!?)

me: 'wow ok... well I've never seen that before... seriously not trying to be d!@kish about it.. but you don't really save any time in the long run if you go BACK to loot them, you actually take more time.'

me: 'I've just never seen an LFM say that before. And maybe I've only run shroud 50 times...but in all that time, never heard of it'

player: 'yes you do.. you save time because people are screwing around.. beleive I am not messing with you'

me: 'well good luck with it, I'm surprised that you find people that prefer to run that way'

me: 'and again, not to be a d!@k but FYI another shroud group just filled twice as fast as yours, most likely because people would rather not run it your way...so in the long run you wait longer for a party... again, not being a smart-a$$, just saying'

me: 'anyway good luck with your run... and I guess I learned something new'



I am still sitting here amazed, even more amazed after writing out this post. I mean, i am definitely the type of person that thinks you should play your own way. So, in the end, I mean if this guy thinks like this it isn't any skin of my back.

I am just first boggled by the fact that anyone thinks that the amount of time to loot the chests at the end of each part is a considerable amount of time. I would say that the time it takes to loot all the chests in the shroud combined, even when rolling for a few shards is maybe 2 minutes tops. I mean everyone is always running to the chests as fast as possible anyway to see what they got and grab their loot.

Secondly, I'm amazed that if I ran with this guy, and took the extra 15 seconds to grab my chests on each part, that he would consider me a 'piker'.

Third, I'm amazed that short of a guild run (which this didn't appear to be) that this guy would expect that he is going to find 11 other people who think this way. I am especially curious if everyone who joins actually understands what he is saying and isn't going to grab their chests (either because they didn't understand, or else they also think it's a ridiculous request).

I can only assume that this guys is in a rush. I mean this takes zerging to a whole other level. Even people who just need larges still usually collect smalls and mediums because you can always broker a trade. I would think that just posting "speed-run" and instilling in the group that you don't want alot of dilly-dallying is a better way to get what you want.

I'm not posting this to ask about who's right or wrong, or for other people to back me up and say that this guy is crazy (or the opposite), I'm just really, really amazed, and curious and can't quite quantify why....

Anyway, as stated - I'm a firm believer in do your own thing. I can only assume that most people think like me, since my majority (read: all) of my Shroud runs confirm that no one has ever thought like this before. On the other hand, maybe I've just been 'lucky' and there is more of this out there then I thought, or a growing trend that is showing where things might go(???).

Just thought I would share...since as I said at the beginning, I can't commit to playing tonight...so I'm in the forums instead :P

[Gol]

I know a couple full guilds of people that don't shrine except after parts 3 and 4, and don't open chests till the end.

/shrug

[asphodeli]

Out of curiosity, which server is this on?

[Kwyjibo]

I'm with you, I don't get this and have NEVER been in a shroud run like this...very odd...

[Bengalih]

I know a couple full guilds of people that don't shrine except after parts 3 and 4, and don't open chests till the end.

/shrug


I certainly have done my share of runs where shrining isn't necessary in the first few parts.

And should a guild run decide as a whole to go to completion and go back and open quests, I certainly have no problem, although I honestly can't see how it saves much time (unless you are trying for some actual record on your completion timer).

I think maybe I find it so strange that as a PUG, one would force others to complete. Although, of course, no one was "forced" to join - but that one would actually care enough to try and enforce it rather than just take the 2 extra mins and let people grab their loot.

Thanks for sharing that this is at least not as uncommon (or at least not in Guild runs).

[Bengalih]

Out of curiosity, which server is this on?

Hmm, well I thought I would leave that out so as not to bring into question anyone in particular. And, although I suppose it wouldn't hurt to just name a server, I think it would probably be more fun if you guessed.

I bet you'll get it right the first time.

:P

[halls]

Moving quickly, the group usually finishes the quest on normal in about 18 minutes and has been as fast as 12 minutes if it is the group I think you might be referring to. I am pretty sure it is a sound strategy at this point.

If you want to get 6 to 10 runs done in a few hours, join if you can.

[sirgog]

One reason people do that is so that they don't waste time resolving Shard rolls after parts 1, 3 and 4. They might only add 3 minutes to a run, but over 200 runs, that's ten hours.

I get around that by having people roll on part 1 Shards while attacking the portals. Highest roll gets the first unwanted shard, 2nd highest gets the second (if it exists), and so on. Part 3 and 4 shards are less important (as they are much more common).

Another thing I do to cut time off the run is in any 1 pass part 4 (normal and hard only, wouldn't be game on Elite and haven't ever done a 1-pass there either), we don't save a Lieutenant in part 5. The Bard passes FoM, a ranger passes Fire Resist, and anyone without their own GH asks the Bard or an Arcane for it (unless they have a Reflex save over 28/30/32 n/h/e without it, then it's useless to them), and we just kill the Lieutenants outright.

[Bengalih]

Moving quickly, the group usually finishes the quest on normal in about 18 minutes and has been as fast as 12 minutes if it is the group I think you might be referring to. I am pretty sure it is a sound strategy at this point.

If you want to get 6 to 10 runs done in a few hours, join if you can.

To your points, and to SirGog's below you. I won't dispute that yes, you can shave off 3 minutes, and I can't dispute SirGog's math that 3 minutes adds up to 10 hours after 200 runs.

However, am I to assume that you guys don't go back to loot the chests as well?

If you go back to loot the chests, how long does that take?

Assuming you have a group together and are trying to do speed runs, you still have to wait for everyone to go back and grab their chests before you can start your next run.

Also, I can assume that a guild that runs like this is also going to let guildies roll for shards that aren't needed.

So, yes, you can for sure get COMPLETION time quicker, but the difference in net time when all is said and done must be minimal.

And if you aren't going back to loot chests...well what's the point?

Again, I want to stress that I really DO just want to understand the mentality here, without the need to nitpick seconds off a run - how can it really net any discernible difference in total time spent on quest & looting combined?

[halls]

I'd imagine going back through to loot the chests takes about maybe a 1:30.. So I would rather live with the completion under 20 minutes than to risk a 40 minute pug.

I'd also recommend experiencing it first hand. You will be able to draw a better conclusion that way.

[Bengalih]

I'd imagine going back through to loot the chests takes about maybe a 1:30.. So I would rather live with the completion under 20 minutes than to risk a 40 minute pug.

I'd also recommend experiencing it first hand. You will be able to draw a better conclusion that way.

I agree that I probably can't accurately comment 100% unless I've done a run where you don't grab the chests until the end.

I am almost exclusively a PUGger, and I have a feeling that most of you who have commented positively about running in this way run mostly Guild runs (or very regular groups).

To be honest I don't time my Shroud runs - I rarely lead a Shroud group, I just join up, and they usually seem to take about the same amount of time. I would definitely say that they probably take closer to 25-35 minutes than 15-20. I would say that most of the time the group moves quickly, shrines when necessary, generally gets things right the first time.

Obviously there is a mind set with some players to zip through as quickly as possible, and that is totally fine. Personally doing a 30 minute run is just as fun to me as if I could do it in 15. As long as the players cooperate and things don't go south, I'm not too interested in trying to make a record.

However, I fully disagree that in my experience looting chests (even if rolling for shards) can take more than a 2-3 minutes. And, again, when you factor in that you are going back to grab them after anyway, the net time is negligible.

I would think that if you were really interested in getting it done so quickly (which seems to be the end result wanted when not looting the chests), then better LFMs would say something like:

"Do your own buffs"
"Know how to do your puzzle in 30 seconds or less"
"No first timers"
"Have an appropriate portal weapon"

I would think that any or all of those above things would make for a quicker net run than not looting a chest (and although maybe not the most friendly in all cases, seem more acceptable to me than making all members complete).

Anyway, I really do appreciate your feedback - and there is obviously a difference in gameplay preference. Also, being a PUGger I might have a higher tolerance than someone who just runs with a Guild. Perhaps many of you have had bad experiences where people spend 5 minutes at each chest? I have never experienced that.

Maybe one day I will experience first hand...but if I don't, I won't feel I've missed out.

[PopeDX]

Yeah I thought it was a silly thing until I did one. Man, did we fly through that. And then at the very end you just portal hop and pick up all your chests.

[Bengalih]

Yeah I thought it was a silly thing until I did one. Man, did we fly through that. And then at the very end you just portal hop and pick up all your chests.

Again, I purport that the reason your group flew through it had more to do with the fact that everyone knew how to do their job, and did it exceedingly well (meaning many vets and l33ts with uber gear and good quest knowledge).

Not to debate that looting a chest adds precious seconds to the quest time (although one could debate that looting a chest is less time than the lag in the Shroud :P), just that I don't think it is the main thing you should be looking to tweak/eliminate if trying for a fast run.

And again, I appreciate the feedback - guess it is indeed more common than I thought!

[Vhlad]

I was on this evening for a few minutes wanting to do a shroud run. I was only half-heartedly looking because even though I wanted to run, I was helping my wife with some things and knew I couldn't actually commit to a group. Anyway, I was still looking to see if there were any Shroud groups up.

There were two actually, each with about 5 people in the group so far. What struck me as strange is that one of the LFMs said something to the effect of "No DDoor...To Completion!" (for sake of full disclosure, that wasn't exactly it...but something very close to that effect.)

Now I look for Shroud runs a lot (been farming mats these days), and usually an LFM says something quite to the contrary, like "DDoor at End", or simply doesn't say anything at all about it. Every single run I've been on people wait at the end for those that don't want to finish to DDoor or recall out (with the exception of one or two runs with overly excited players).

So, I was very curious, why someone would care if I finished the quest at not, as long as I stuck around until Harry was dead. Following is the conversation I had with the party leader. I have obviously removed all names, and included some commentary (in italics) as well to make things clear.




me: 'just out of curiosity, you seriously don't have the ability to wait 15 seconds after harry dies for people to ddoor out?'

(This might have sounded a little antagonistic, but I was honestly not trying to start a fight, just curious about why?!?!.)

player: 'i dont like pikers'
player: 'lotters pike'

(I can only assume he meant "looters" here)

me: 'you don't pike the quest when you ddoor... you leave after harry is dead'

player: 'no you pike when you loot the chest along the way while we are ahead killing all the mobs'

(I was starting to get really confused here, since I didn't see what looting chests had to do with piking)

me: 'I ddoor out all the time, and usually have one of the highest kill counts'

(just to clarify: I meant that I usually have a high kill count NOT COUNTING the casters, who usually FoD and Wail almost everything in part 1)

player: 'then you dont beat on the portals which you should'

(He would probably be correct in saying that, if I REALLY had a caster kill count of like 60+, but I decided to drop that argument as it wasn't really important and I didn't clarify).

me: 'are you just doing part 1?'

(I asked this since his previous comment about not portal beating made me think that maybe I didn't have the chance to kill things AFTER part 1)

player: ''completion only..!!!'

me: 'you really have no clue man....'

(Ok, so maybe that was a little unwarranted, but at this point I really felt like what he was saying was that if I DDoor out at the end, then I don't contribute to the quest)

player: 'i have run 2000 shrouds so yes I do understand teh quest'

me: 'then I have no idea how you can think that someone can't contribute 100% and just want to ddor out to farm it again after harry is dead'

me: 'you yourself obviously have done it many times, as if you have run it 2000 times that means about 6000 days, which is impossible if you completed each time'

(2000 completions x ~3 day timer = 6000 days = 16+ years)

player: 'because you are looting on part 1 while i vorpal on part 2 and solve puzzle on 3 while you are looting on part 2 and vopraling mobs on 4 while you loot on 3 and waiting for you to loot when i could go into part 5'

(ok..starting to get a bit clearer)

me: so are you saying you don't loot any of the chests at all? except the last two?'

player: 'i have 13 characters.. at times have had 12 on timer'

(Ok, revision to above math. 16+ years / 13 characters = 2000 runs possible in about 1.25 years, if done consistently. Man... I thought I played alot)

player: 'we loot chests at end'

me: 'but only those 2? you don't loot any of the other chests?'

player: 'you can go through portals back to all parts and loot all chests at end'

(seriously?!?)

me: 'wow ok... well I've never seen that before... seriously not trying to be d!@kish about it.. but you don't really save any time in the long run if you go BACK to loot them, you actually take more time.'

me: 'I've just never seen an LFM say that before. And maybe I've only run shroud 50 times...but in all that time, never heard of it'

player: 'yes you do.. you save time because people are screwing around.. beleive I am not messing with you'

me: 'well good luck with it, I'm surprised that you find people that prefer to run that way'

me: 'and again, not to be a d!@k but FYI another shroud group just filled twice as fast as yours, most likely because people would rather not run it your way...so in the long run you wait longer for a party... again, not being a smart-a$$, just saying'

me: 'anyway good luck with your run... and I guess I learned something new'



I am still sitting here amazed, even more amazed after writing out this post. I mean, i am definitely the type of person that thinks you should play your own way. So, in the end, I mean if this guy thinks like this it isn't any skin of my back.

I am just first boggled by the fact that anyone thinks that the amount of time to loot the chests at the end of each part is a considerable amount of time. I would say that the time it takes to loot all the chests in the shroud combined, even when rolling for a few shards is maybe 2 minutes tops. I mean everyone is always running to the chests as fast as possible anyway to see what they got and grab their loot.

Secondly, I'm amazed that if I ran with this guy, and took the extra 15 seconds to grab my chests on each part, that he would consider me a 'piker'.

Third, I'm amazed that short of a guild run (which this didn't appear to be) that this guy would expect that he is going to find 11 other people who think this way. I am especially curious if everyone who joins actually understands what he is saying and isn't going to grab their chests (either because they didn't understand, or else they also think it's a ridiculous request).

I can only assume that this guys is in a rush. I mean this takes zerging to a whole other level. Even people who just need larges still usually collect smalls and mediums because you can always broker a trade. I would think that just posting "speed-run" and instilling in the group that you don't want alot of dilly-dallying is a better way to get what you want.

I'm not posting this to ask about who's right or wrong, or for other people to back me up and say that this guy is crazy (or the opposite), I'm just really, really amazed, and curious and can't quite quantify why....

Anyway, as stated - I'm a firm believer in do your own thing. I can only assume that most people think like me, since my majority (read: all) of my Shroud runs confirm that no one has ever thought like this before. On the other hand, maybe I've just been 'lucky' and there is more of this out there then I thought, or a growing trend that is showing where things might go(???).

Just thought I would share...since as I said at the beginning, I can't commit to playing tonight...so I'm in the forums instead :P

Some people have 250+ of each kind of small/medium ingredient. Since they don't need to loot those chests, it does save them time to skip all chests except the ingredient chests in part 4 and 5.

And 15 seconds x 2000 runs = 8.33 hours wasted waiting for people to ddoor. In fact, on average I would say it takes longer than 15 seconds. Sometimes it's a 2 minute wait if you're waiting for a slow loader to get out of the quest. Even if you throw up ddoors and tell people to zone out when the boss is at 25%, you still have laggers/slow pokes who cause you to wait. Ignoring DPS lost by people zoning out early, IMO the average waiting time for people to ddoor and zone out is probably more like 40 seconds. At 2000 runs, that's 22.22 hours wasted for each person. If it's 11 people waiting for 1 to zone out, then: 22.22*11 = 244.44 collective hours are wasted. At $40/hour, that's $9777.78.

When we're talking about a grindfest that spans years, every second counts.

Also, the kind of players who need to ddoor/zone out and run the shroud multiple times on 1 character are most likely also going to slow you down by having weaker builds, weaker gear, unfinished crafting, and less experience. There are exceptions, but generally the players who zone out before completing are newer players.

I'm not saying that I fully endorse the kind of behavior we're talking about, but I do see some rationale behind it. IMO it's what happens when grind is too intensive, and helpfulness/politeness/manners/patience take a back seat to efficiency.

[Bengalih]

To show an alternate view on some of your points:


Some people have 250+ of each kind of small/medium ingredient. Since they don't need to loot those chests, it does save them time to skip all chests except the ingredient chests in part 4 and 5.


Small and med ingredients still sell fairly well on the AH. If you looted those chest a few runs and auctioned off your spoils, you might afford an extra large mat or two there.



And 15 seconds x 2000 runs = 8.33 hours wasted waiting for people to ddoor. In fact, on average I would say it takes longer than 15 seconds. Sometimes it's a 2 minute wait if you're waiting for a slow loader to get out of the quest. Even if you throw up ddoors and tell people to zone out when the boss is at 25%, you still have laggers/slow pokes who cause you to wait. Ignoring DPS lost by people zoning out early, IMO the average waiting time for people to ddoor and zone out is probably more like 40 seconds. At 2000 runs, that's 22.22 hours wasted for each person. If it's 11 people waiting for 1 to zone out, then: 22.22*11 = 244.44 collective hours are wasted. At $40/hour, that's $9777.78.


I didn't even check your math...I'm sure you are right and won't insult you by thinking you can't do basic arithmetic. I'm not sure I agree that it takes 2 minutes to DDoor out, but maybe that's because I'm out in 10 seconds and then dropping group. However, not sure what $40/hour has to do with it. If you are a paid player you are paying the same amount regardless how much you play. If I concede that there are actually 244.44 hours wasted then that is about 1/3 of a month. So...that's closer to $7 lost. Now if you meant to say that you make $40 an hour and could make that if you weren't playing...well...I won't even go there. You know how much money I've wasted on days I could have been getting billable client hours but instead decided to play some DDO :P



Also, the kind of players who need to ddoor/zone out and run the shroud multiple times on 1 character are most likely also going to slow you down by having weaker builds, weaker gear, unfinished crafting, and less experience. There are exceptions, but generally the players who zone out before completing are newer players.


I agree with the first part - although I don't think it's a bad thing. I've been playing for years (as you can see my join date is the same as yours), and I consider myself a competent player, although I haven't committed anywhere near the time that others have (just think 2000 shroud runs at a conservative 15 minutes = 500 hours... and I'm sure that is only a small portion of someone's playing time who does 2000 runs!).

I know that many on these forums are very very hard core players, and maybe I stepped into it questioning the validity of attempting to shave 2 mins off a run. When you count your life in 2 mins * 2000 shroud runs, then obviously that is going to mean something to you. (and I don't mean YOU here, I mean in general - this type of player).

And, since I don't have 10 greensteel items on each toon, I would probably fit into your camp of "weaker" player.



I'm not saying that I fully endorse the kind of behavior we're talking about, but I do see some rationale behind it. IMO it's what happens when grind is too intensive, and helpfulness/politeness/manners/patience take a back seat to efficiency.

Again, I appreciate your candor. These discussions are interesting because I think it helps show the diversity of the player base.

[Quikster]

Looting at the end helps set teh pace for a fast run. This really started coming up when doing speed runs waiting for ddoeu to be released.

While you may enjoy seeing everyone roll for shards, watching clerics buff, shrine, buff some more (after i already fully buffed myself to begin with) then hopping in the pool for more mana, my group just finished 4 and is waiting for the dm text in 5 to finish.

We let people ddoor, but they do it BEFORE harry dies, because when he does we hit the alter and go loot. If you want to grab your chests on the way thats fine, but dont expect anyone to wait for you. All our guild runs are self buff except fom which a ranger usually hands out on the run, and group buffs which are handed out when needed.

[sirgog]

To your points, and to SirGog's below you. I won't dispute that yes, you can shave off 3 minutes, and I can't dispute SirGog's math that 3 minutes adds up to 10 hours after 200 runs.

However, am I to assume that you guys don't go back to loot the chests as well?

If you go back to loot the chests, how long does that take?

Assuming you have a group together and are trying to do speed runs, you still have to wait for everyone to go back and grab their chests before you can start your next run.

Looting at the end is marginally quicker than looting as you go due to shard rolls. No other reason.

That said, lag happens and even sometimes causes a wipe, so any speedrun I lead, I'll always loot as we go - but with Shards being rolled on during the parts that lead up to them. Particularly the part 4 chests should be looted (as there's bugs that happen 2-3% of the time with the part 4 to part 5 portal that can cause a wipe, and the part 4 chest is juicy).

[Bengalih]

Looting at the end helps set teh pace for a fast run. This really started coming up when doing speed runs waiting for ddoeu to be released.

While you may enjoy seeing everyone roll for shards, watching clerics buff, shrine, buff some more (after i already fully buffed myself to begin with) then hopping in the pool for more mana, my group just finished 4 and is waiting for the dm text in 5 to finish.

We let people ddoor, but they do it BEFORE harry dies, because when he does we hit the alter and go loot. If you want to grab your chests on the way thats fine, but dont expect anyone to wait for you. All our guild runs are self buff except fom which a ranger usually hands out on the run, and group buffs which are handed out when needed.

I didn't say I enjoy the extra time - I just don't see it as a big deal (again, my play style doesn't require maximum efficiency at all times). And although I too pretty much buff myself with all necessaries in the Shroud, not every class has the ability to do so.

Couple of questions Quickster, before I hit the sack for the night. I'm interested in some of the specifics:

I know you said these are Guild runs... and therefore I don't think that much of this discussion applies at all. Since, as a guild run, you are a well oiled machine with a set, repeatable pattern that everyone has agreed to in advance well ahead of time. In many cases, it isn't a democracy - you have been assimilated. I definitely see how members in a guild intent in banging out 4 raid runs in an hour can be much more efficient (although again, I do debate that this has more to do with other factors than looting the chests as you go).

However, If you do bring puggers into the group I can only assume that some of them aren't always familiar with your tactics, even from the LFM - so do you tell them when they join that you aren't looting any chests until the end? I assume if they are completing this isn't a big issue - but if they didn't plan to then I assume they either drop or loot the chest anyway, incurring the wrath of the group? If you don't bring pugs in, then I guess there is nothing to say.

Also, I find it interesting, because I AM farming for mats these days and will usually run Shroud until ransack before I complete. I always think to myself after part 4 why am I even sticking around? After all I've got all my chests, and I'm not getting any xp. I of course do it to help the group, who helped me get my loot thus far. In a pug group, if people left BEFORE killing Harry, i would think THEY were the pikers, for not helping the others finish. Of course, in a guild people are more forgiving if they know that others are there to farm.

I can see by everyone's responses that striving to shave time off the Shroud (or any quest for that matter) isn't that uncommon. Honestly, that's not a surprise, I know many people are looking to maximize their time.

What I guess was strangest to me was that the original post was inspired by an LFM for a PUG group - this wasn't a Guild group. I guess that in the end it boils down for me to being counter-intuitive that you are SO concerned with shaving off 2-3 minutes, but yet you are still running a PUG. I hate to draw the lines between PUGs and Guilds, because many of the PUGgers I run with are from guilds - well known ones as well as starters), but I think that some Guild tactics should be wary trying to show their face in PUG LFMs without coming under some question.

[Quikster]

I didn't say I enjoy the extra time - I just don't see it as a big deal (again, my play style doesn't require maximum efficiency at all times). And although I too pretty much buff myself with all necessaries in the Shroud, not every class has the ability to do so.

Couple of questions Quickster, before I hit the sack for the night. I'm interested in some of the specifics:

I know you said these are Guild runs... and therefore I don't think that much of this discussion applies at all. Since, as a guild run, you are a well oiled machine with a set, repeatable pattern that everyone has agreed to in advance well ahead of time. In many cases, it isn't a democracy - you have been assimilated. I definitely see how members in a guild intent in banging out 4 raid runs in an hour can be much more efficient (although again, I do debate that this has more to do with other factors than looting the chests as you go).

To be clear it wasnt my group, but it sounds as if you may play on khyber. Are there other factor that go into it? Sure, but likely you already incorporate many of these into the way the pug runs it. The shroud has gone through many changes through out the years it has been run.




However, If you do bring puggers into the group I can only assume that some of them aren't always familiar with your tactics, even from the LFM - so do you tell them when they join that you aren't looting any chests until the end? I assume if they are completing this isn't a big issue - but if they didn't plan to then I assume they either drop or loot the chest anyway, incurring the wrath of the group? If you don't bring pugs in, then I guess there is nothing to say.


My lfms say, "Fast run, self buff, byoddoor" If someone wants to loot along the way, i could care less, and I tell them if they arent finishing, to make sure to loot, otherwise they may find themselves completing coz im not waiting for them to run back through and get their chests.

If they dont know the shroud tactics, they shouldnt be joining a self buff, fast run. Anything my group does different is simple enough to explain on the fly. The only wrath thats given out is when someone consistently doesnt listen of follow instructions. The group of people I run with runs shroud effeciently and quickly, everytime. We know this. Dont like our way of running it, dont run it with us. But it was our groups that took the average pug time on our server down and down, by introducing new tactics, self buffed runs, and yelling at people to hurry the f*(& up! We were sick of pugs doing shrouds in 70 minutes. That time is now about 40 minutes with the introduction of all the new players. Most of our runs are 25 minutes or less.

So if someone doesnt want to listen or follow instructions, i ask them to recall. I dont care if its a cleric or bard, the only caster, whatever, I dont put up with it.



Also, I find it interesting, because I AM farming for mats these days and will usually run Shroud until ransack before I complete. I always think to myself after part 4 why am I even sticking around? After all I've got all my chests, and I'm not getting any xp. I of course do it to help the group, who helped me get my loot thus far. In a pug group, if people left BEFORE killing Harry, i would think THEY were the pikers, for not helping the others finish. Of course, in a guild people are more forgiving if they know that others are there to farm.



The ddoor goes up at about 15% and people who want to leave are told to leave. Usually its only 1 or 2 but regardless thats when we do it. And if someone was asked to recall for being an a$$hat and didnt, this is when their stone is run through the ddoor and dropped.

We have people with two accts that pike shroud all the time, so not sure what the problem is there. A solid group of 8 should be able to finish it pretty quick. Course those are guildies and not random people :)



I can see by everyone's responses that striving to shave time off the Shroud (or any quest for that matter) isn't that uncommon. Honestly, that's not a surprise, I know many people are looking to maximize their time.

What I guess was strangest to me was that the original post was inspired by an LFM for a PUG group - this wasn't a Guild group. I guess that in the end it boils down for me to being counter-intuitive that you are SO concerned with shaving off 2-3 minutes, but yet you are still running a PUG. I hate to draw the lines between PUGs and Guilds, because many of the PUGgers I run with are from guilds - well known ones as well as starters), but I think that some Guild tactics should be wary trying to show their face in PUG LFMs without coming under some question.

One thing you need to understand is some of us like to run stuff fast for a variety of reasons. One is to fit more quests in, some of us have small bladders, some want a smoke break, and some are just crack heads. But the point is if im in a pug and the leader wants a 60 min shroud, i go with the flow. If im running a shroud and want it done in 17 minutes, hurry the F up :)

I dont begrudge or think less of anyone who doesnt want to run something fast. I know lots of really good players that dont care one bit. Me? I usually want to get in and get out before she finds out i was there :) ( i know im tasteless ;) )

[MrWizard]

this may sound stupid, but don't they go back for the chests if they skip them?
If they do, doesn't it take even longer to actually do the whole dungeon if you wait to loot after part 5 and then run back through the whole thing? (whole dungeon meaning completion and chests?)

as for leaving at the end, most toons have clickies of teleport or what not that takes a second to do...and barring that, someone can just slash death.

who in the world would waste time taking a ddoor (zone to front) and the take the front door (zone out) and make everyone wait anyways? Just teleport or die...done.

And you can do this right when he dies or just before.

Taking a ddoor to the front door instead of recalling, tele, slash death, is just rude as it makes everyone wait for no reason at all....and if they do not wait, you lose your chests while sitting at the front door (another reason not to do it).

speed runs are speed runs..different needs as it is about speed and not other aspects.. but waiting to loot chests after part 5 takes longer no matter how you work it out...maybe not 'on paper' as far as timer, but in real time of actual 'in quest'.

[Quikster]

this may sound stupid, but don't they go back for the chests if they skip them?
If they do, doesn't it take even longer to actually do the whole dungeon if you wait to loot after part 5 and then run back through the whole thing? (whole dungeon meaning completion and chests?)

as for leaving at the end, most toons have clickies of teleport or what not that takes a second to do...and barring that, someone can just slash death.

who in the world would waste time taking a ddoor (zone to front) and the take the front door (zone out) and make everyone wait anyways? Just teleport or die...done.

And you can do this right when he dies or just before.

Taking a ddoor to the front door instead of recalling, tele, slash death, is just rude as it makes everyone wait for no reason at all....and if they do not wait, you lose your chests while sitting at the front door (another reason not to do it).

speed runs are speed runs..different needs as it is about speed and not other aspects.. but waiting to loot chests after part 5 takes longer no matter how you work it out...maybe not 'on paper' as far as timer, but in real time of actual 'in quest'.

IN 90 % of the groups I have ever been in, it doesnt take longer for me to go back and loot chests.

Most of the groups ive been in waste several minutes at each part looting, buffing, shrining, rebuffing, and buffing one more time just in case. I can run through and grab parts 1,2 and 3 in about 30 seconds.

[MrWizard]

IN 90 % of the groups I have ever been in, it doesnt take longer for me to go back and loot chests.

Most of the groups ive been in waste several minutes at each part looting, buffing, shrining, rebuffing, and buffing one more time just in case. I can run through and grab parts 1,2 and 3 in about 30 seconds.

well the whole buff, roll stuff....yea..
but only takes a second to open a chest and hit loot all....but doing it when you get there is quicker than running back to do it..speed run, for me, is about getting it all done quick..
I would feel really weird about running through the whole dungeon to get 6 sets of chests....just me though.

I imagine for a lot of it, it is 'completion time' speed and not actual finish and loot time in dungeon. I understand that.

Not for me though. Too many times in the past has a DC or server crash prevented me from loot...I open asap.

[Quikster]

well the whole buff, roll stuff....yea..
but only takes a second to open a chest and hit loot all....but doing it when you get there is quicker than running back to do it..speed run, for me, is about getting it all done quick..
I would feel really weird about running through the whole dungeon to get 6 sets of chests....just me though.

I imagine for a lot of it, it is 'completion time' speed and not actual finish and loot time in dungeon. I understand that.

Not for me though. Too many times in the past has a DC or server crash prevented me from loot...I open asap.

We've timed it, its faster 99% of the time. Not on the sheet, for entering to leaving. The other thing is i can loot on my time, not yours. Trust me, its faster.


Edit:: Its not the whole dungeon, its 1-3 that really speeds it up.

[oberon131313]

We've timed it, its faster 99% of the time. Not on the sheet, for entering to leaving. The other thing is i can loot on my time, not yours. Trust me, its faster.


Edit:: Its not the whole dungeon, its 1-3 that really speeds it up.

what time difference are we talking here? 30 seconds? 1 minute? 5 minutes?

[Quikster]

what time difference are we talking here? 30 seconds? 1 minute? 5 minutes?

Depends on the group. But only the fastest groups that loot chests make it not really worth it, and most groups ive been in are slow as snails. anything over 30 mins is mind numbing. Anything over 25 is long, a good run is < 20. Ive run it in under 20 and looted chests, but most groups are much longer.

Once again, in my runs, IDC either way, just dont expect me to be sitting there helping you jump through the portal if you loot.

[Tomalon]

Not sure if this fits in to the topic or not but we just did a 29 minute run. looted as we went, stopped to buff and shrine. BS'n the whole way having a good time. And to-boot after we logged in we waited for a few minutes for everyone to get in and throw a few buffs. The thing you have to ask yourself is at what point does the game feel like work and not having fun? For some ppl knocking every second off the timer is fun (ie. measuring your e-peen) for others it's about everything else the game has to offer. I for one will take my BS'n, laughing, joking, drinking, grease throwing to see who has FoM and who doesn't 29 minute runs over the rawr we broke the 19 minutes record.

Just saying is all

[Quikster]

Not sure if this fits in to the topic or not but we just did a 29 minute run. looted as we went, stopped to buff and shrine. BS'n the whole way having a good time. And to-boot after we logged in we waited for a few minutes for everyone to get in and throw a few buffs. The thing you have to ask yourself is at what point does the game feel like work and not having fun? For some ppl knocking every second off the timer is fun (ie. measuring your e-peen) for others it about everything else the game has to offer. I for one will take my BS'n, laughing, joking, drinking, grease throwing to see who has FoM and who doesn't 29 minute runs over the rawr we broke the 19 minutes record.

Just saying is all

not an epeen thing for me, but if your doing a 19 min run thats pretty casual, thats a good run. Most groups arent running sub 30 min on our server though.

[Nott]

If you've got a (semi) static group that races through, it's a non-issue because you're never waiting while you LFM.

It saves how much time by not looting as you go? 1 minute? 3 minutes? Lets just say it takes 5 minutes. If you have to LFM it can easily take better than 5 extra minutes because you indicate no ddoor. Maybe it won't, but you have no way to know. Point is, if you're LFM and you don't include that waiting time into your overall time taken, you're doing yourself a disservice when you think about "how fast" that run went.

Makes no difference to me either way... I think it's foolish to not complete. But, enough people want to do it that it's equally foolish to exclude them because it makes your run take 5 minutes longer. Justifications like "but over 200+ runs, that adds up to 17 hours!" are even more foolish when you consider that 200+ runs, with 10 shroud flagged toons per person, takes over 1440 hours of "on timer" time (an approximation of 60 days of timer)... meaning your 5 minutes saved gained you 1 tenth of 1 percent of time.

[KillEveryone]

Personally I like to loot as I go along. Sometimes things go bad in part 4 with no fault of party.

I'm going to start telling people to roll early for those shards now. That is really a good idea.

Sometimes I like to run several times for loot and shards. Good loot that gets good plat and when I'm done I can go about doing other things that don't really pay out as much but is something I want to play.

I do like to try an shave off time but I'll still loot as I go. It doesn't really take that long for me to skip looting.

[moops]

Looting at the end is marginally quicker than looting as you go due to shard rolls. No other reason.


Well there are more reasons, because when people loot on the way, they take AFKS, and people start passing out buffs for 5 mins b4 each part, often times buffing over other people even if it has been clearly stated who is passing out which buffs--and then people think they need to jump in pools since someone else went afk, and lets not forget inventory issues and people selling at the end of part 3. . . b4 you know it, you have a 35-45 min run instead of an 18 - 20 min run ---

As my guildie stated--it is an adrenaline rush, it really sets the pace-- I find it fun to just run fast --we still joke and play games as well.

1 set of buffs can last all the way to the end of part 4.

To the OP--
Yes, it really is that much faster and usually 10+ mins faster. Some people have 20 alts they like to keep on timer, some people can only play for an hour. . .etc, so 10+ extra mins adds up--it means that someone can do one shroud instead of 3 if they only have an hour to play. . .

When I put up an LFM for Fast Run Self buff-there could be 3 other LFMs and mine will fill usually within a couple mins while all the other LFMS sit there-- sometimes instantly with too many people not getting in, to even send them tells. I also don't myddo people and do first come first server and will take some crazy group makes ups instead of standing around for 15 mins waiting for the perfect group. So I think that it is appealing/successful for enough people to run this way.

Also, sometimes I run without casters and Bards, I just tell people to recall when harry is at 25%.

Ive never said that people could not loot along the way, but boy some people sure do get mad when Harry is dead b4 they even enter part 4.

[Shiler]

theres one more problem with ddoor a end after harry dies.
Dddoor up.
PPl start leaving... <1 min later> have everyone recalled who wanted?
NOO wait me i need to recall wait... <another 30 seconds..>
Thats why i too like to tell people to recall /death ddoor before harry dies because i will hit altar as soon as he dies.
I dont like waiting.

[maliusz]

To the OP--
Yes, it really is that much faster and usually 10+ mins faster. Some people have 20 alts they like to keep on timer, some people can only play for an hour. . .etc, so 10+ extra mins adds up--it means that someone can do one shroud instead of 3 if they only have an hour to play. . .


As people have said with a guild run group its slightly faster, but noway a PUG group is going to be 10+ mins faster by not looting, heck I can actually see it being slower... 'Hey why aren't we looting?, which portal do I take to get back to part 1, etc' If a minute makes a big difference to you, sure put this in your LFM, but your going to lose that time and then some by waiting for a group to fill over the standard 'ddoor at end'.

[Lleren]

I will say that on Cannith in the PuGs I have joined the average wait at the end of part 5 for folks to leave is more like a minute, maybe 2, then 15 seconds or so. In a 27 minute run I was in today one player commented on how fast it went, I believe the quote was " That took like half the normal time" . A bit of an exageration, but you get the idea.

Given a choice in what is available. I would go on a completion only run over a ddoor available run. I will consider part 1 farms for a Shard of Power, but I rarely bother.

[stainer]

There are speed runs on Khyber that are like this. You don't stop for anything and have the whole thing completed in ~ 20 mins. To be truthful, in my opinion, this is a very nice way to get through this quest. You just go and loot afterwards. It is a lot quicker.

I have 3 characters on timer, and I am not having that bad a time keeping them up to date, but someone that has 8, 10, or 16 characters running Shroud, I can fully understand wanting to blow through it and get the completion.

This method isn't really good for people that have only got a few runs under their belt.

[Darkrok]

I would love to be in this 'completion only' raid. Not because they're saving the chests until the end or at least not just because of that. It's more because of the tone that it sets. We're not here for the loot until we get to the end. We're not here to shrine/buff/shrine. We're here to speed run this place. Honestly I get bored in most shroud groups because of the slow pace. It's action for a few minutes, then sit on your butt and listen to someone talk about whatever greensteel they're making for another few minutes, then wait on the cleric to get done putting the shard up for a roll, then have 4 people mention the buffs they didn't get, then when all that's sorted go on to the next part. Repeat after each section. They're taking the boring parts out of the run and just doing the fun parts!

[megathon]

I would think that waiting till the end to loot chests would be a bad idea. I mean what if you wipe on a part? Then you can't go back for the chests and you have nothing to show for your time. If you loot along the way then you at least have some loot to off set the repair bill and have some small and maybe medium ingredients.

[stainer]

I would think that waiting till the end to loot chests would be a bad idea. I mean what if you wipe on a part? Then you can't go back for the chests and you have nothing to show for your time. If you loot along the way then you at least have some loot to off set the repair bill and have some small and maybe medium ingredients.

If wiping is your concern, then you should not do a speed run. The speed runs I am in, we could split the party in half and do two seperate shortman shrouds to completion.

[Chai]

People in this example have 2 different standards of how they run this quest, and there was obviously no communication on how this was going to work in this situation.

What I find ironic is that people are not willing to take 1 minute to communicate how the run is going to work, but they are more than willing to take much longer than that to berate someone after the fact when they didnt understand that a different standard was going to be used.

Its just another example of absolutism: This has to be run my way. The only correct way to run this is my way. - Laughable

[stainer]

People in this example have 2 different standards of how they run this quest, and there was obviously no communication on how this was going to work in this situation.

What I find ironic is that people are not willing to take 1 minute to communicate how the run is going to work, but they are more than willing to take much longer than that to berate someone after the fact when they didnt understand that a different standard was going to be used.

Its just another example of absolutism: This has to be run my way. The only correct way to run this is my way. - Laughable

Whoa dude... I just think the question is why would people run a shroud without stopping. I think you are reading to much into the conversation. :)

[Chai]

If wiping is your concern, then you should not do a speed run. The speed runs I am in, we could split the party in half and do two seperate shortman shrouds to completion.

Until the healer sees a nice juicy opportunity to use it as a griefing tool and let everyone die in part 5. I have seen this happen twice back in the day. Now, everyone who was sooo obsessed with knocking a few minutes off the run time gets no loot.

Usually the people who run the whole thing first and then loot are playing in groups with people they run with alot to avoid the ol grief button from being applied.

[werk]

Cockamamie processes turn fun games into work.



While I am all for efficiency, I believe this is largely perceived efficiency that isn't taking the full run time into account, just the quest timer. Or it sounds to me that the leader only needs large ings and is mimizing his own wasted time.

I have a stopwatch widget and will frequently time shrouds overall and just the quest itself. Shrouds that form fast run slow, and shrouds that form slow complete fast.

I've ran shrouds both ways...probably most any way...and I prefer loot as you go, craft at the end, and just recall at the end if you don't want to complete...ddoor is for newbs. ;)

[stainer]

Until the healer sees a nice juicy opportunity to use it as a griefing tool and let everyone die in part 5. I have seen this happen twice back in the day. Now, everyone who was sooo obsessed with knocking a few minutes off the run time gets no loot.

Usually the people who run the whole thing first and then loot are playing in groups with people they run with alot to avoid the ol grief button from being applied.

Wow. You get griefed a lot. You should be careful who you quest with.

[ArichValtrahn]

I know a couple full guilds of people that don't shrine except after parts 3 and 4, and don't open chests till the end.

/shrug

Same..

I joined a no-ddoor speedrun once.. no looting of any chests until harry was dead.

Im not sure why people take such offense to how others want to run their groups. I think the no ddoor thing is silly, but then I just wont join those groups if I dont approve of how they will be run.

[Gercho]

I can see the fast run concept in a guild or semi static group, but in a pug? in the op clearly states that there were 5 people on the group, so they are pugging at least 7 spots, they dont have any guarantee that they will fill those 7 spots with competent people, they will take longer to fill with that kind of lfm, the time it took for the leader to chat with the OP its more than you can save in a loot run, and he was waiting for the group to fill all that time...
So, while i believe in some situations you can save time, its clear that not in the situation that the op describes, and thats why you dont see that kind of pugs often... when you are doing a run like that one, its not a pug...

[stainer]

Same..

I joined a no-ddoor speedrun once.. no looting of any chests until harry was dead.

Im not sure why people take such offense to how others want to run their groups. I think the no ddoor thing is silly, but then I just wont join those groups if I dont approve of how they will be run.

I agree with you. No one should join a group that isn't played the way they want to play. I fully understand that. Every speed run I have been in, it was in the LFM and it was explained before we started. People are given the chance to drop, and there are no hard feelings. Some people dig farming shroud. I get that. It should be ok that some people like to fly through the quest.

[Chai]

Whoa dude... I just think the question is why would people run a shroud without stopping. I think you are reading to much into the conversation. :)

I understand, but there are obviously 2 different people here with 2 different standards, and 1 minute of communication at the beginning would have made this a non issue. There are many people who play DDO that think others should "just understand how its done," implying there is only one way to do things.

If I were the OP in this scenario, I would see if there was anyone else who wanted to leave before dude clicked the alter. This would reinforce the OP's case in this specific situation.

If dude hit the completion alter and there were like 5 people who wanted out, then its lkely he understood that he was griefing people due to wanting to enforce his own standard. I'd start PMing the name around if this is the case.

[Gunga]

*crunch*

[amethystdragon]

I've done it both ways.

I've waited to loot at the end of the raid, and it seems to take about half the time. However, I've been in one group that we were waiting to loot until the end; and we wiped on part 4, due to horrid lag. A few people were p!$$ed beyond belief. I chalked it up to another learning experience.

If joining a pug, I would prefer to loot as we go, because you just never know what is going to happen.

[grodon9999]

. . . Shrouds that form fast run slow, and shrouds that form slow complete fast.


Shrouds that form slow I can solo-heal with no resources spent and a 17/2 Cleric with barely any gear. Food for thought.

[arminius]

If you are so keen on saving time, wouldn't it be easier to have a "no roll" rule?

If there were no rolls, then looting would consist of bringing up a property screen and mashing the Loot All button, which takes < 4 seconds for the first person to open the chest, and 1.5 seconds for everybody else.

Either that, or are people rolling on the chests at the end? Why wouldn't rolling then take a lot of time too?

I go with whatever rules are in place for whatever Shroud group I joined, but if I was in a "loot after only" group and it failed and I missed 3 or 4 rounds of loot because of it, yeah, I'd be angry. I'm sure the response to that would be "we never fail." Which I think is great for you, keep on trucking and pay no mind to what us mortals think--if you never fail, then you can afford to.

[Thrudh]

I saw a great quote once... I'll have to paraphrase it...

"Wasting 15 seconds inside a Shroud is 15 seconds I could be using to run a Shroud"

[Chai]

Wow. You get griefed a lot. You should be careful who you quest with.

Hardly. After playing for a long time you see these scenarios pop up once in a while, and learn to avoid them. Especially scenarios that can be avoided through one minute of actual communication. The solution to this type of issue is trivial.

And I know who I quest with. Its been quite a few of the same people for three years now.

People who have played the game a while learn to recognize potential griefing scenarios well before they have a chance to occur.

Also read: Guild level perks and /ragedisband.

[MrWizard]

we used to do speed runs all the time...and if a chest was there, dang nab it we took it.

I understand how a group can become a mess at the chests..who wants this and that.
But if you are speed running you are probably with people that will not muddle
(and some do not want to complete and will lose all chests)..

I would just loot and move on, leave any people stuck on chests to their own devices..
Because that is the fun of a pug speed run, leaving people strewn out along the dungeon..lol


Over the years I have lost chests to server crash, computer crash, DC, etc...I do not like to pass em up much....and especially find it annoying when at the end of a raid everyone sits around for 2 minutes 'getting ready to open the chest' instead of just looting and leaving...grrrr.

[tunabomber]

I was on this evening for a few minutes wanting to do a shroud run. I was only half-heartedly looking because even though I wanted to run, I was helping my wife with some things and knew I couldn't actually commit to a group. Anyway, I was still looking to see if there were any Shroud groups up.

There were two actually, each with about 5 people in the group so far. What struck me as strange is that one of the LFMs said something to the effect of "No DDoor...To Completion!" (for sake of full disclosure, that wasn't exactly it...but something very close to that effect.)

Now I look for Shroud runs a lot (been farming mats these days), and usually an LFM says something quite to the contrary, like "DDoor at End", or simply doesn't say anything at all about it. Every single run I've been on people wait at the end for those that don't want to finish to DDoor or recall out (with the exception of one or two runs with overly excited players).

So, I was very curious, why someone would care if I finished the quest at not, as long as I stuck around until Harry was dead. Following is the conversation I had with the party leader. I have obviously removed all names, and included some commentary (in italics) as well to make things clear.



me: 'just out of curiosity, you seriously don't have the ability to wait 15 seconds after harry dies for people to ddoor out?'

(This might have sounded a little antagonistic, but I was honestly not trying to start a fight, just curious about why?!?!.)

player: 'i dont like pikers'
player: 'lotters pike'

(I can only assume he meant "looters" here)

me: 'you don't pike the quest when you ddoor... you leave after harry is dead'

player: 'no you pike when you loot the chest along the way while we are ahead killing all the mobs'

(I was starting to get really confused here, since I didn't see what looting chests had to do with piking)

me: 'I ddoor out all the time, and usually have one of the highest kill counts'

(just to clarify: I meant that I usually have a high kill count NOT COUNTING the casters, who usually FoD and Wail almost everything in part 1)

player: 'then you dont beat on the portals which you should'

(He would probably be correct in saying that, if I REALLY had a caster kill count of like 60+, but I decided to drop that argument as it wasn't really important and I didn't clarify).

me: 'are you just doing part 1?'

(I asked this since his previous comment about not portal beating made me think that maybe I didn't have the chance to kill things AFTER part 1)

player: ''completion only..!!!'

me: 'you really have no clue man....'

(Ok, so maybe that was a little unwarranted, but at this point I really felt like what he was saying was that if I DDoor out at the end, then I don't contribute to the quest)

player: 'i have run 2000 shrouds so yes I do understand teh quest'

me: 'then I have no idea how you can think that someone can't contribute 100% and just want to ddor out to farm it again after harry is dead'

me: 'you yourself obviously have done it many times, as if you have run it 2000 times that means about 6000 days, which is impossible if you completed each time'

(2000 completions x ~3 day timer = 6000 days = 16+ years)

player: 'because you are looting on part 1 while i vorpal on part 2 and solve puzzle on 3 while you are looting on part 2 and vopraling mobs on 4 while you loot on 3 and waiting for you to loot when i could go into part 5'

(ok..starting to get a bit clearer)

me: so are you saying you don't loot any of the chests at all? except the last two?'

player: 'i have 13 characters.. at times have had 12 on timer'

(Ok, revision to above math. 16+ years / 13 characters = 2000 runs possible in about 1.25 years, if done consistently. Man... I thought I played alot)

player: 'we loot chests at end'

me: 'but only those 2? you don't loot any of the other chests?'

player: 'you can go through portals back to all parts and loot all chests at end'

(seriously?!?)

me: 'wow ok... well I've never seen that before... seriously not trying to be d!@kish about it.. but you don't really save any time in the long run if you go BACK to loot them, you actually take more time.'

me: 'I've just never seen an LFM say that before. And maybe I've only run shroud 50 times...but in all that time, never heard of it'

player: 'yes you do.. you save time because people are screwing around.. beleive I am not messing with you'

me: 'well good luck with it, I'm surprised that you find people that prefer to run that way'

me: 'and again, not to be a d!@k but FYI another shroud group just filled twice as fast as yours, most likely because people would rather not run it your way...so in the long run you wait longer for a party... again, not being a smart-a$$, just saying'

me: 'anyway good luck with your run... and I guess I learned something new'

I am still sitting here amazed, even more amazed after writing out this post. I mean, i am definitely the type of person that thinks you should play your own way. So, in the end, I mean if this guy thinks like this it isn't any skin of my back.

I am just first boggled by the fact that anyone thinks that the amount of time to loot the chests at the end of each part is a considerable amount of time. I would say that the time it takes to loot all the chests in the shroud combined, even when rolling for a few shards is maybe 2 minutes tops. I mean everyone is always running to the chests as fast as possible anyway to see what they got and grab their loot.

Secondly, I'm amazed that if I ran with this guy, and took the extra 15 seconds to grab my chests on each part, that he would consider me a 'piker'.

Third, I'm amazed that short of a guild run (which this didn't appear to be) that this guy would expect that he is going to find 11 other people who think this way. I am especially curious if everyone who joins actually understands what he is saying and isn't going to grab their chests (either because they didn't understand, or else they also think it's a ridiculous request).

I can only assume that this guys is in a rush. I mean this takes zerging to a whole other level. Even people who just need larges still usually collect smalls and mediums because you can always broker a trade. I would think that just posting "speed-run" and instilling in the group that you don't want alot of dilly-dallying is a better way to get what you want.

I'm not posting this to ask about who's right or wrong, or for other people to back me up and say that this guy is crazy (or the opposite), I'm just really, really amazed, and curious and can't quite quantify why....

Anyway, as stated - I'm a firm believer in do your own thing. I can only assume that most people think like me, since my majority (read: all) of my Shroud runs confirm that no one has ever thought like this before. On the other hand, maybe I've just been 'lucky' and there is more of this out there then I thought, or a growing trend that is showing where things might go(???).

Just thought I would share...since as I said at the beginning, I can't commit to playing tonight...so I'm in the forums instead :P

Just another account of morons runnin quests they shouldnt,dont feed the morons dude,after a few shroud runs you find out who is clueless and who isnt,jusat run with groups that have the same folks in it.

[Thrudh]

player: 'i have run 2000 shrouds


player: 'i have 13 characters.. at times have had 12 on timer'

3000 larges over 2000 shrouds

24 larges needed for a dual-shard item...

13 characters

That is 9.6 dual-shard Tier III Shroud items for all 13 characters...

You really have to wonder at someone who is THAT obsessed with a video game. There's a point where boasting makes you look competent and knowledgable, and then there's a point past that where it just makes people start to worry about you.

[Gunga]

Just another account of morons runnin quests they shouldnt,dont feed the morons dude,after a few shroud runs you find out who is clueless and who isnt,jusat run with groups that have the same folks in it.

You have a toon named toonabomber and you call efficient raiders morons.

Huh.

[gemineye]

player: 'yes you do.. you save time because people are screwing around.. beleive I am not messing with you'

This quote pretty much sums it up. But, applying raid rules like this when you are pugging more than half the spots, requires selective invites or alot of luck.

The main point that I got was they don't like waiting for everyone to take an extra 10 minutes buffing and looting. Hence, it is faster to get the chests at the end.

[Chai]

3000 larges over 2000 shrouds

24 larges needed for a dual-shard item...

13 characters

That is 9.6 dual-shard Tier III Shroud items for all 13 characters...

You really have to wonder at someone who is THAT obsessed with a video game. There's a point where boasting makes you look competent and knowledgable, and then there's a point past that where it just makes people start to worry about you.

Its like rappers who write songs that make fun of other rappers who brag about all the stuff they own.

[Eladiun]

Same..

I joined a no-ddoor speedrun once.. no looting of any chests until harry was dead.

Im not sure why people take such offense to how others want to run their groups. I think the no ddoor thing is silly, but then I just wont join those groups if I dont approve of how they will be run.


Agreed, I see these posts complaining about Zerg, KYW, BYOH, No NEWBs, and etc LFMs and I want to scream just don't join the party you idiot (not direct at OP as he seemed to be curious if this was a common practice). Every one should be able to run how they like and with who they like. Make your own party or join another, simple.

[Bengalih]

Morning All -

Wow, lot's of responses over night and I appreciate them all.

There is definitely some good feedback on both sides of the issue.

It's apparent that many of the posters didn't read the thread before posting because there are some duplicate questions as well as some wrong info being espoused, but that's bound to happen when a thread starts getting longer.

I believe i have been satiated with the feedback so far, and threads like this can sometimes get more heated as they continue. I just wanted to make a few closing comments and then y'all are free to take this wherever it goes.

1) It was mentioned in a couple of responses that I was taking offense to how someone runs their group. I want to be clear I was not offended by how the group was being run, I was curious. I was probably a little offended initially that someone would consider me a "piker" if I looted my chests along the way, but remember - I DID NOT join this group. I simply had a conversation with the leader asking him to explain his tactics.

2) DDoor not specific - completion specific: I agree with some of the other posters that DDoors themselves are silly. There is no reason not just to recall or do a "/death" (other than a repair bill in the latter scenario). Most groups say they are throwing up the door, so if they do I tend to walk through it and out the front door. But, I would have no problem recalling instead immediately after Harry goes down. Also, should the group prefer, I would do it when Harry is at 15% if they would rather, I find this much more acceptable than not allowing No completion (assuming chests were looted as they go).

3) Acceptable/Not Acceptable - There is no acceptable/not acceptable, I fully acknowledge that people have a right to play, and run their groups as they like. My initial questions were more geared towards taking this speed-run, well-oiled guild runtime and trying to enforce it on a PUG. NOT that the leader doesn't have the right to do this, I just think it would be difficult to do, more time consuming to explain everything to the group, and most importantly just about impossible to enforce.

I think this whole thread brings out the huge disparity in the community here. As I mentioned previously I myself have been playing since early 2006. I had 16 toons back when they merged Riedra into Khyber and I think I have a pretty good grasp of the game. I played for the variety and fun (occasionally with my Wife) and went F2P when it came around. I'm down to 4 toons now, and play only one of them regularly at any time.

Most of my toons probably couldn't hold up their own in a 6 man Shroud run - and I'm fine with that. I know that the reason is that I haven't done 2000 runs of each raid and don't have the uber gear that would equip a toon to solo harry. I haven't TR'd 2 times already. I'm not a min/maxer since as a PUGger versatility is often more important (not that Guild members can't be versatile). I'm also sure that not being in a Guild also severely changes things as I can't dispute that running with a regular group of (supposedly competent, if not practiced) people can get you into a zone of much faster paced running.

I have a feeling that for each of you out there with 2000 raid runs, there are 2500 other players, 500 of which are competent players, who simply haven't been playing for years, or can't devote the same amount of time. Of course, from these forums you'll often get more the view of the hard core. For those that frequent the forums, and live mostly in their world of their l33t Guild, I think it gets forgotten (sometimes willingly and gratefully) that there even exists a world of Shroud runs that can last over 20 minutes.

I don't point this out to call foul - I believe you should play how you want, group with who you want, etc. But remember we do live in a virtual society on our servers and as soon as you put up an LFM that doesn't say "all spots reserved" you are entering into that community. When you do enter into that community, I think it is helpful to remember that although you may have the RIGHT to do what you want, you may want to think about the community as a whole, and how you help shape it.

I'm sure there is more to say, as my initial question definitely brings many ancillary topics into focus. I again appreciate all the feedback, especially that it kept a civil tone. I guess I just needed a big reminder of how many of you are so dedicated to the game in your time that every second counts. I suppose most of you are usually hidden away from me in your Guild runs, that I don't bump into you on a regular basis.

Although I like to solo play, and zerg a quest sometimes, I generally prefer the more laid-back PUG lifestyle. To each their own and above all - remember have fun in your own way - just make sure it is actually fun you're having!

[Bilger]

Seriously, people have the right to run things how they see fit.

That being said I would prefer to loot as you go through with the unknown of the lag monster showing his teeth. I wouldn't want to lose my loot as bad as it is at times. Just because someone wants to shave a few seconds on completion time.

Seriously, thats all that is happening is completion time is shaved by a couple of minutes those same minutes that you waist by going back and looting.

So what's the point in it other than trying to get personal best times.

Again though it is leaders right to run it how they want and me personally will do as leader requests. Even though disagree and we get shafted for his stupidity. Now if I am leading I expect the same.:D

[SaisMatters]

I was on this evening for a few minutes wanting to do a shroud run. I was only half-heartedly looking because even though I wanted to run, I was helping my wife with some things and knew I couldn't actually commit to a group. Anyway, I was still looking to see if there were any Shroud groups up.

There were two actually, each with about 5 people in the group so far. What struck me as strange is that one of the LFMs said something to the effect of "No DDoor...To Completion!" (for sake of full disclosure, that wasn't exactly it...but something very close to that effect.)

Now I look for Shroud runs a lot (been farming mats these days), and usually an LFM says something quite to the contrary, like "DDoor at End", or simply doesn't say anything at all about it. Every single run I've been on people wait at the end for those that don't want to finish to DDoor or recall out (with the exception of one or two runs with overly excited players).

So, I was very curious, why someone would care if I finished the quest at not, as long as I stuck around until Harry was dead. Following is the conversation I had with the party leader. I have obviously removed all names, and included some commentary (in italics) as well to make things clear.




me: 'just out of curiosity, you seriously don't have the ability to wait 15 seconds after harry dies for people to ddoor out?'

(This might have sounded a little antagonistic, but I was honestly not trying to start a fight, just curious about why?!?!.)

player: 'i dont like pikers'
player: 'lotters pike'

(I can only assume he meant "looters" here)

me: 'you don't pike the quest when you ddoor... you leave after harry is dead'

player: 'no you pike when you loot the chest along the way while we are ahead killing all the mobs'

(I was starting to get really confused here, since I didn't see what looting chests had to do with piking)

me: 'I ddoor out all the time, and usually have one of the highest kill counts'

(just to clarify: I meant that I usually have a high kill count NOT COUNTING the casters, who usually FoD and Wail almost everything in part 1)

player: 'then you dont beat on the portals which you should'

(He would probably be correct in saying that, if I REALLY had a caster kill count of like 60+, but I decided to drop that argument as it wasn't really important and I didn't clarify).

me: 'are you just doing part 1?'

(I asked this since his previous comment about not portal beating made me think that maybe I didn't have the chance to kill things AFTER part 1)

player: ''completion only..!!!'

me: 'you really have no clue man....'

(Ok, so maybe that was a little unwarranted, but at this point I really felt like what he was saying was that if I DDoor out at the end, then I don't contribute to the quest)

player: 'i have run 2000 shrouds so yes I do understand teh quest'

me: 'then I have no idea how you can think that someone can't contribute 100% and just want to ddor out to farm it again after harry is dead'

me: 'you yourself obviously have done it many times, as if you have run it 2000 times that means about 6000 days, which is impossible if you completed each time'

(2000 completions x ~3 day timer = 6000 days = 16+ years)

player: 'because you are looting on part 1 while i vorpal on part 2 and solve puzzle on 3 while you are looting on part 2 and vopraling mobs on 4 while you loot on 3 and waiting for you to loot when i could go into part 5'

(ok..starting to get a bit clearer)

me: so are you saying you don't loot any of the chests at all? except the last two?'

player: 'i have 13 characters.. at times have had 12 on timer'

(Ok, revision to above math. 16+ years / 13 characters = 2000 runs possible in about 1.25 years, if done consistently. Man... I thought I played alot)

player: 'we loot chests at end'

me: 'but only those 2? you don't loot any of the other chests?'

player: 'you can go through portals back to all parts and loot all chests at end'

(seriously?!?)

me: 'wow ok... well I've never seen that before... seriously not trying to be d!@kish about it.. but you don't really save any time in the long run if you go BACK to loot them, you actually take more time.'

me: 'I've just never seen an LFM say that before. And maybe I've only run shroud 50 times...but in all that time, never heard of it'

player: 'yes you do.. you save time because people are screwing around.. beleive I am not messing with you'

me: 'well good luck with it, I'm surprised that you find people that prefer to run that way'

me: 'and again, not to be a d!@k but FYI another shroud group just filled twice as fast as yours, most likely because people would rather not run it your way...so in the long run you wait longer for a party... again, not being a smart-a$$, just saying'

me: 'anyway good luck with your run... and I guess I learned something new'



I am still sitting here amazed, even more amazed after writing out this post. I mean, i am definitely the type of person that thinks you should play your own way. So, in the end, I mean if this guy thinks like this it isn't any skin of my back.

I am just first boggled by the fact that anyone thinks that the amount of time to loot the chests at the end of each part is a considerable amount of time. I would say that the time it takes to loot all the chests in the shroud combined, even when rolling for a few shards is maybe 2 minutes tops. I mean everyone is always running to the chests as fast as possible anyway to see what they got and grab their loot.

Secondly, I'm amazed that if I ran with this guy, and took the extra 15 seconds to grab my chests on each part, that he would consider me a 'piker'.

Third, I'm amazed that short of a guild run (which this didn't appear to be) that this guy would expect that he is going to find 11 other people who think this way. I am especially curious if everyone who joins actually understands what he is saying and isn't going to grab their chests (either because they didn't understand, or else they also think it's a ridiculous request).

I can only assume that this guys is in a rush. I mean this takes zerging to a whole other level. Even people who just need larges still usually collect smalls and mediums because you can always broker a trade. I would think that just posting "speed-run" and instilling in the group that you don't want alot of dilly-dallying is a better way to get what you want.

I'm not posting this to ask about who's right or wrong, or for other people to back me up and say that this guy is crazy (or the opposite), I'm just really, really amazed, and curious and can't quite quantify why....

Anyway, as stated - I'm a firm believer in do your own thing. I can only assume that most people think like me, since my majority (read: all) of my Shroud runs confirm that no one has ever thought like this before. On the other hand, maybe I've just been 'lucky' and there is more of this out there then I thought, or a growing trend that is showing where things might go(???).

Just thought I would share...since as I said at the beginning, I can't commit to playing tonight...so I'm in the forums instead :P

I would of just squelched you after your second or third comment!

[Seikojin]

I may not have caught this. But wouldn't the raid timer prevent the people from completing the quest again right away? And if so, would it make no difference when they completed the raid, because the raid timer does not change? And if they calculate, to the second, their time for squeezing as many shroud raids in a month as possible, does a variance of a half hour matter?

I think it is a little over the top to put an LFM up, then expect people not to gather loot, rebuff, or otherwise enjoy what they are doing.

That guys playstyle is badong.

[Darkrok]

I may not have caught this. But wouldn't the raid timer prevent the people from completing the quest again right away? And if so, would it make no difference when they completed the raid, because the raid timer does not change? And if they calculate, to the second, their time for squeezing as many shroud raids in a month as possible, does a variance of a half hour matter?

I think it is a little over the top to put an LFM up, then expect people not to gather loot, rebuff, or otherwise enjoy what they are doing.

That guys playstyle is badong.

Honestly, I like that style in my PuG's. You can go at a breakneck speed and still have fun and talk. But I have more fun while actually killing things than while looting/buffing. I'd greatly appreciate this style of play. It certainly isn't for everyone but I'm sure there are quite a few people this would appeal to. It's good that he put it in the group description though. :)

[Razcar]

Looting at the end helps set teh pace for a fast run. This really started coming up when doing speed runs waiting for ddoeu to be released.
This is the thing. It sets the pace. No looting = no dawdling. Everyone knows it will move fast, and they don't stand around, they don't go afk, they just push on. At the end people that want all chests can get them - in their own pace - and people that just want larges only gets those.

And you cannot think "opening the chest takes, what, like 15 seconds". It does for a couple of people, then for some others it takes longer, and some others yet again take a "quick afk". Then people get full invs and need to sell etc. But the most important thing is that it speeds people up in everything, as a psycological side effect.

What I can question though is the point of doing this in pugs. That seems a little pointless, since you will have to wait to fill them up anyway. In guild runs you can Shroud quickly, switch characters, run it quickly again, and repeat like that for all your alts.

[Largo_Kyber]

I understand the "speed run" mentality. You already have 200+ smalls and you are just trying to get your larges as quickly and effeciently as possible. However, I rarely ever have fun or enjoy these runs. Kinda makes it feel like work to me to just blow through everything as fast as possible as many times in a row that you can handle.

A few nights of these type of speed runs in a row and I get bored and take a break for a week or two. Run it however you want, but I personally play this game to have fun. I've started to see many many LFM's where they might as well put "Speed Run- No Fun Allowed".

[Retrodark]

I didn't read every reply, so maybe someone already said this. I would be willing to bet that unless you already have a group willing to do these type of speed runs, you will be waiting a lot longer to fill the group which would totally defeat the extra few minutes that might be saved. Like the OP said, out of the 2 groups, this one was taking way longer to fill. This could mean that the leader was recruiting better quality people, but without knowing the specifics... In addition, until they fix the lag in Shroud, I would prefer getting my loot as we go. I would say about 10% of the runs that I have been in failed do to some serious lag.

The closest I have seen to this was last night where we basically didn't wait for anyone. We just looted and ran no buffs until part 4 and 5. We finished in like 20 minutes and did offer a DD. The bad thing was that we almost failed because some people were lagging behind (probably because they didn't know we were running through it). Considering that Shroud has become so dang monotonous, I don't mind getting through it super fast.

[Quikster]

This is the thing. It sets the pace. No looting = no dawdling. Everyone knows it will move fast, and they don't stand around, they don't go afk, they just push on. At the end people that want all chests can get them - in their own pace - and people that just want larges only gets those.

And you cannot think "opening the chest takes, what, like 15 seconds". It does for a couple of people, then for some others it takes longer, and some others yet again take a "quick afk". Then people get full invs and need to sell etc. But the most important thing is that it speeds people up in everything, as a psycological side effect.

What I can question though is the point of doing this in pugs. That seems a little pointless, since you will have to wait to fill them up anyway. In guild runs you can Shroud quickly, switch characters, run it quickly again, and repeat like that for all your alts.


It takes about 6 seconds to loot the chest. Even if people are doing it as fast as they can, im already clearing the next part by the time they hit the portal to the next part.


Yes in a full pug there is little point to running like this, but if you have 8 people or so that run it like this all the time, and are pugging 4 spots to the first who hit the lfm, you can run 4 shrouds in the time it took me to do 1 last night (62 minutes twice lol)

I definitely dont think running like this is for everyone, but the person who was running it like this obviously thinks it works out, so why give him such a hard time?

[Vynnt]

I've actually joined many groups like this. Speed runs, no chests until end, no saving lieutenant, no regaining sp in water between fights, no ddoor. I actually prefer it, even on my healer.

As for the argument that it doesn't save time because you have to wait longer to form a group, time wasted outside a quest is worth more than time wasted inside a quest. While you are waiting for the group to fill, you could be browsing or selling on the AH, talking in guild chat/tells, or watching tv or something.

[Cylinwolf]

I may not have caught this. But wouldn't the raid timer prevent the people from completing the quest again right away? And if so, would it make no difference when they completed the raid, because the raid timer does not change? And if they calculate, to the second, their time for squeezing as many shroud raids in a month as possible, does a variance of a half hour matter?

I think it is a little over the top to put an LFM up, then expect people not to gather loot, rebuff, or otherwise enjoy what they are doing.

That guys playstyle is badong.

The timer doesn't actually start until you pick up your end reward.

But yes, I do find this to be a little ridiculous; if you pick back up in the Shroud the second your timer is up every time...

Well, I just can't call that "healthy."

[moops]

People in this example have 2 different standards of how they run this quest, and there was obviously no communication on how this was going to work in this situation.

What I find ironic is that people are not willing to take 1 minute to communicate how the run is going to work, but they are more than willing to take much longer than that to berate someone after the fact when they didnt understand that a different standard was going to be used.

Its just another example of absolutism: This has to be run my way. The only correct way to run this is my way. - Laughable

Actually, I think that the leader was wonderful for sending all those tells to the OP and explained quite clearly--I know I wouldn't have--And I Would've said--"Because it's faster--you don't like it lead your own shroud" Thats what you get as a leader who takes the time to put together a raid, lead it with your strategy--if you Chai, want to run it with your own strategy start your own Raid. It's best that the leader is stating strategy so that people know who to listen to--in most cases a leader it more like a conductor but if there are new people in the group it helps, otherwise one might end up in many of the wiped SHrouds/Hounds/Tods where 3 different people are trying to lead, or no one is leading at all.

Fast does not mean no communication, I have not led a failed shroud since it first came out, and I can take even new untwinked people, and they for the most part have no prob with the directions that I give--barring language barriers.

You would not believe the tells I get after people run with us for the first time, they are just so amazed that shroud can be done that fast, and these people start sending me tells everytime I log on looking for the next run.

[moops]

This is the thing. It sets the pace. No looting = no dawdling. Everyone knows it will move fast, and they don't stand around, they don't go afk, they just push on. At the end people that want all chests can get them - in their own pace - and people that just want larges only gets those.

And you cannot think "opening the chest takes, what, like 15 seconds". It does for a couple of people, then for some others it takes longer, and some others yet again take a "quick afk". Then people get full invs and need to sell etc. But the most important thing is that it speeds people up in everything, as a psycological side effect.

What I can question though is the point of doing this in pugs. That seems a little pointless, since you will have to wait to fill them up anyway. In guild runs you can Shroud quickly, switch characters, run it quickly again, and repeat like that for all your alts.

Because many leaders have a reputation, and as soon as they put up an LFM, people recognize their name and the style of the run and join immediately--I prob at most only get 2 people who have never run a Shroud or any raid with us b4--or raids with our style. The same is prob for a leader on Khyber--whom Im surprised has not popped into this thread, he is the one that gave me a lot of pointers back in the day, and I took those to Sarlona--madmatt of course:)

The first part of your statement is so true--people just do not get this no matter how many of us type it. I do nto want to have to wait for the Sorc with the full inventory to come buff over all the buffs that I have already gotten, or someone to go smoke a cigartette since we are waiting for the Sorc, and someone to go make a sandwich since we are waiting for the sorc and the smoker, etc.

[Phidius]

...
Yes in a full pug there is little point to running like this, but if you have 8 people or so that run it like this all the time, and are pugging 4 spots to the first who hit the lfm, you can run 4 shrouds in the time it took me to do 1 last night (62 minutes twice lol)
...


...
You would not believe the tells I get after people run with us for the first time, they are just so amazed that shroud can be done that fast, and these people start sending me tells everytime I log on looking for the next run.

When these 2 (or anyone from their guild) put up an LFM for the Shroud with "self-buffed fast run", you either hit the LFM or lose out. If you take the time to switch toons, the LFM is not likely to be there when you get back.

Some people may enjoy standing around Meridia for 30+ minutes waiting for the Shroud to form, then another 40 waiting to loot the chests in part 5. Me, I'd much prefer running like a madman once they click "Accept" until I teleport out 20 minutes later.

[Quikster]

Actually, I think that the leader was wonderful for sending all those tells to the OP and explained quite clearly--I know I wouldn't have--And I Would've said--"Because it's faster--you don't like it lead your own shroud" Thats what you get as a leader who takes the time to put together a raid, lead it with your strategy--if you Chai, want to run it with your own strategy start your own Raid. It's best that the leader is stating strategy so that people know who to listen to--in most cases a leader it more like a conductor but if there are new people in the group it helps, otherwise one might end up in many of the wiped SHrouds/Hounds/Tods where 3 different people are trying to lead, or no one is leading at all.

Fast does not mean no communication, I have not led a failed shroud since it first came out, and I can take even new untwinked people, and they for the most part have no prob with the directions that I give--barring language barriers.

You would not believe the tells I get after people run with us for the first time, they are just so amazed that shroud can be done that fast, and these people start sending me tells everytime I log on looking for the next run.

How about more of those, Ive been pugging it the past few nights, 60 minute minimums. You know how crazy ive been going....

[Chai]

Actually, I think that the leader was wonderful for sending all those tells to the OP and explained quite clearly--I know I wouldn't have--And I Would've said--"Because it's faster--you don't like it lead your own shroud" Thats what you get as a leader who takes the time to put together a raid, lead it with your strategy--if you Chai, want to run it with your own strategy start your own Raid. It's best that the leader is stating strategy so that people know who to listen to--in most cases a leader it more like a conductor but if there are new people in the group it helps, otherwise one might end up in many of the wiped SHrouds/Hounds/Tods where 3 different people are trying to lead, or no one is leading at all.

Fast does not mean no communication, I have not led a failed shroud since it first came out, and I can take even new untwinked people, and they for the most part have no prob with the directions that I give--barring language barriers.

You would not believe the tells I get after people run with us for the first time, they are just so amazed that shroud can be done that fast, and these people start sending me tells everytime I log on looking for the next run.


I agree, that 1 minute of communication beforehand eliminates the entire need to even have that conversation at the end, which I am sure took alot more than 1 minute. The rest of any communication needed takes place during the run and no pause is necessary.

If we are talking about saving time here....

[Quikster]

I agree, that 1 minute of communication beforehand eliminates the entire need to even have that conversation at the end, which I am sure took alot more than 1 minute. The rest of any communication needed takes place during the run and no pause is necessary.

If we are talking about saving time here....

Prolly a lot less than one minute.

Its usually along the lines of this once we step in:

Caster go right and kill everything, everyone else go left, songs/rage/prayer on first portal.

Thats usually what we say upon zoning in. The rest is done as we are running around beating on walls. Fresh songs and mass buffs on last portal, head straight into pt 2. Caster shrines and heads to center when zoning in, usually have bosses pulled by the time he gets there. Communication is:

send a tell to a ranger or paly if you need fire, new haste in south central, dont get agro of all mobs. Beat to 0 and seperate. Ele/ outsider seperate west, others seperate east. Caster put fw's on crystal.

Pt 3

Call out if you dont know your puzzle, everyone runs water, stand at barrier for fom when you run your water. Songs and masses inside as we clear.

Pt 4 once hes dead,

when done shirning/looting stand on me and we go

pt 5

caster pulls ele out, beat the rest where they stand. if 2 clerics one holds mana to start on harry right away, bard/ranger/cleric throws fom.

When harry is at 15% if you arent completing leave now.

How much more communication is required then that other than holding someones hand? If you need your hand held, dont join an lfm that says, self buffed fast run.

[Inkblack]

Hmm, well I thought I would leave that out so as not to bring into question anyone in particular. And, although I suppose it wouldn't hurt to just name a server, I think it would probably be more fun if you guessed.

I bet you'll get it right the first time.

:P

I'm betting it's not Khyber, because I see these types of runs all the time. It is faster, mostly because of the tone it sets.

Eightball of The Free Companions in particular does a good job of explaining it to everyone in his groups about the expectations in advance, and making sure everyone knows the plan. By advance, I mean he tells you what we'll be doing in the next minute, and making sure everyone knows to do it... He calls for the songs and haste on the way to the last portal, explains who will be pulling the ellie SE as he zones into part 2, who will be on crystal duty, etc. There is no wasted effort.

I personally don't mind the "smell the daisies" or the speed runs. Both are fun.

[GhoulsTouch]

Being you have a timer, maybe people are D-Dooring out before completion so they can run it again just to loot all but the end chests?

[Slink]

2 words:

Mud Monkeys!

[terrenceknight1]

Just finished reading this thread I just want to add my 2 cents.

I'm definitely not an experienced player, I don't do raids often because of RL issues, the shroud I can say I've run -maybe- 6-8 times before I TR'd, I admit I'm not the..quickest person mentally so I don't know the shroud well because of poor memory. I'm now just approaching Shroud level again 15 slowly working towards 16. So I'll likely run it a lot more this time through because it'll take me significantly longer to hit 20.

To you speed runners out there could you give me a list of which buffs I'd need to bring myself if I ever find myself fortunate enough to join one of your Shroud pugs. My main reason asking is, I'm not a grinder, I have no desire to get a ddoor out and rerun the shroud till ransack. When I run it its to complete.

Would you be willing to take along someone who isn't really experienced, but -can- and does follow instructions. I've always just followed the melee leader to each of the portals, doing what little I can since I've not had much luck getting portal beater handwraps much less something for Harry (No devouts). I do try my best to support the group and pull my own weight in the different stages, I hate the thought of being a piker.

But I digress.

I personally wouldn't have any problems ignoring the chests until the raid is done, really I would prefer it since that's what the 4 portals are there for yeah? I'd much rather get the raid done then go back at my own pace afterwords to grab the chests, do crafting and whatnot.


Currently have Tier II min goggles for stone skin (My only GS item right now. 2 scales away from being able to make it T3, been spending time trying to gather the ingredients on ah)
I have a single Planar grid for GH.

Right Now I'm just -assuming- for self buffing
Bark skin +3 pots
Haste Pots
what else would be required?

Korathar Whitesoul Khyber Server
15 Halfing light path monk.

[moops]

J

To you speed runners out there could you give me a list of which buffs I'd need to bring myself if I ever find myself fortunate enough to join one of your Shroud pugs. My main reason asking is, I'm not a grinder, I have no desire to get a ddoor out and rerun the shroud till ransack. When I run it its to complete.

Would you be willing to take along someone who isn't really experienced, but -can- and does follow instructions. I've always just followed the melee leader to each of the portals, doing what little I can since I've not had much luck getting portal beater handwraps much less something for Harry (No devouts). I do try my best to support the group and pull my own weight in the different stages, I hate the thought of being a piker.



Yes I bring inexperienced people, I take the first to hit MY LFM
You should have either a Greater Fire item, or a pot or a wand to cast it --fire 20s from the 12 are enough for shroud--but alot of 30's drop now :)
You should have Neut poisons pots/item--In a fast run part 4 and 5 are only 2-3 mins so a Pot is fine.
Curse pots incase you get cursed by the Devil in part 2
and IF you feel you need GH, your own GH.

We pass out FOM, Mass Protects, MassDW (if needed) and of course haste.

No need for Trueseeing cuz if your casters/clerics ar doing their jobs, the mobs don't live long enough to displace the portals.

[Slink]

Just finished reading this thread I just want to add my 2 cents.

I'm definitely not an experienced player, I don't do raids often because of RL issues, the shroud I can say I've run -maybe- 6-8 times before I TR'd, I admit I'm not the..quickest person mentally so I don't know the shroud well because of poor memory. I'm now just approaching Shroud level again 15 slowly working towards 16. So I'll likely run it a lot more this time through because it'll take me significantly longer to hit 20.

To you speed runners out there could you give me a list of which buffs I'd need to bring myself if I ever find myself fortunate enough to join one of your Shroud pugs. My main reason asking is, I'm not a grinder, I have no desire to get a ddoor out and rerun the shroud till ransack. When I run it its to complete.

Would you be willing to take along someone who isn't really experienced, but -can- and does follow instructions. I've always just followed the melee leader to each of the portals, doing what little I can since I've not had much luck getting portal beater handwraps much less something for Harry (No devouts). I do try my best to support the group and pull my own weight in the different stages, I hate the thought of being a piker.

But I digress.

I personally wouldn't have any problems ignoring the chests until the raid is done, really I would prefer it since that's what the 4 portals are there for yeah? I'd much rather get the raid done then go back at my own pace afterwords to grab the chests, do crafting and whatnot.


Currently have Tier II min goggles for stone skin (My only GS item right now. 2 scales away from being able to make it T3, been spending time trying to gather the ingredients on ah)
I have a single Planar grid for GH.

Right Now I'm just -assuming- for self buffing
Bark skin +3 pots
Haste Pots
what else would be required?

Korathar Whitesoul Khyber Server
15 Halfing light path monk.

Look for speed run lfm's on khyber.
Get a planar gird if you need GH but most buffs are given in progress, so if you need something, ask. (jump for part 1, fom/fire resist if dealing with ele in part 2, fire/fom part 4/5)
Otherwise all needed buffs will be given, mass prot/bard songs/haste/rage.

Bring good gear for portals and be able to bypass DR on Arri or have lightning2, etc.

As far as OP and others have mentioned, speed runs also serve other purposes.
If I plan on crafting for a particular alt, I will run them last in the chain of speed runs.
My inventory isnt loaded when I go back to part 1 for crafting.
This also forces others who wish to contribute to the raid to wait until completion for crafting.
I also prefer to loot all chests at the end, there is nothing like looting 12 chests at a time.
As others have said, it also serves as a better time to sort out who wants what shards.
Extended buffs at part 1 last until shrining at end of part2 or until youre dispelled in part3.
I run clerics in shroud frequently and never run low on mana until parts 4/5.
Shrining at the end of part 1 is a ridiculous waste of time.
Also, 18-24 min completions are very nice when you have 6-10 alts to grind shrouds when off timer. (3 shrouds an hour? hellz yah!)

One other word of note, I hate when people join a speed run and loot the chests on the way anyhow.
If I could reach my foot thru their monitor, theyd be going to see the dental hygenist of their choice, immediately.

S.

[Tobril]

I really like the thought of a 20 minute shroud.

However…

I PUG almost exclusively. As such, when forming a group I don’t have a guaranteed solid core who could do it themselves if needed.

Besides “speed run, no dawdling” what would people recommend putting in the LFM to indicate the goal is “hit-it-and-quit-it”?

How far do you think a regular PUG could be pushed?

It seems really unlikely to convince a PUG to skips chests. I’ve tried getting people to buff on the run, but it’s like pulling teeth sometimes to get people out of part one and clearing trash in part two without stopping. Part four tends to be another buff-fest, when peeps really just need freedom and maybe fire/poison.

Another concern is making sure people still enjoy the run. My latest attempts at getting people to not recreate a scene from “Driving Miss Daisy” resulted in people thinking I was being mean to them trying to minimize their time grinding in the shroud.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.