Monk System Troubleshooting and Brainstorm

[Xeraphim]

I would prefer this thread be stricly ideas, not "Do it my way!" posts.

I want to see things balanced with the idea that Monks need to have DPS that compares to a Tempest Ranger, but doesn't quite measure up to the critical ability of other classes, since their fists hit harder than a Greataxe, at Tempest speed, at level cap.

They are the dependable static DPS that never fails, but not the class that makes huge jumps in Raid Boss HP. Instead, they would be the steady pour that never stops.

With that in mind, I want to brainstorm with the Devs on what to do about their Stances, PrE, AP costs, abilities, and just about everything else.


First:

1) Addressing Criticals: It appears the playerbase REALLY wants a way to beef up the Monk Critical Multiplier and Range, with the Multiplier being the hot topic. This is a topic that I very much want to keep out of the Stance discussion, to avoid making one stance "Teh neu Uber".

2) Addressing Stances: Wind stance keeps Monks on Live equal to if not greater than Tempest IIIs, which I want to definitely keep alive. Tempest III has the option of x3 multipliers on their weapons, and Monks should hit more often to close the gap, if not have the ability to equip a ML 12 item to increase their critical multiplier(Unarmed Only, Monk Exclusive, Multiclasses cannot use). Fire stance is underwhelming, but a love of many new players. Wind stance is the speed stance and needs to stay that way(movement bonus with it would be nice too). Water stance is awesome for fights with lots of spells happening, and great for leaping through traps and soloing quests, but even so could use a little touch of love. Earth stance is only used when blocking in certain raids, and needs a serious adjustment before it becomes a viable combat choice. Void stance isn't even an idea yet, but would be cool to see.

3) Addressing the 5 stat needs of the Dark Monk and the 6 stat needs of the Dark DEX/WIS AC based Ninja Spy, as well as the difficult balance implied to all Monks in relation to these issues. Some Dark attacks could be made a check other than CHA, but I would like to see some discussion as to avoid unbalancing the entire system with the 36 WIS Halfling Monk. Example: Falling Star Strike based on your CON modifier, or on your STR modifier, others based on WIS, one based on INT, etc. Monks tend to focus hard in CON DEX STR and WIS, adding CHA is just too much, especially if they have to start with INT enough for Combat Expertise.

4) AP Problems - Currently a Monk can specialize in 1 stance, or if he sacrifices some HP or abilities, 2 stances. If he wants 2 stances and the special attack finisher, he will lose the majority of the rest of his Enhancements. Adding a Prestige Enhancement line to this already starved AP progression unbalances it to the point of breaking the Monk's potential at endgame, whereas other classes have the option of finishing their HP lines and taking their PrE with a good bit of AP left for Racial and Class stats.

5) I want some Dev Opinion in here, but would really appreciate the players not flaming them. I know there are other threads out there for Monks, but they have dissolved into flamewar on how to overpower or break the class.


For discussions about Shintao, go here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252295).

[Xeraphim]

Stunning Blow problems for STR monks will be expected, but the Weighted 5% Mandatory Weapon Set for Epic is going to become a WIS Monk Only item as per http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252494, and the release notes to the change to weighted. I'll get into an Epic on Lama and see how my wraps pan out to confirm.

[Xeraphim]

PrE systems of course choke the already rather full AP system of Monks in general, so let's build a few Monk in the Planner to see how that pans out before throwing AP reduction requests into the mix as per this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252494).

I already know Stances are costly, and could be reduced to 1, 1, 2, 2, and that the Animal Path is equally costly, which could be reduced to 1, 2, 2, 2, and that the stat line is also quite expensive, which could be reduced globally to 2, 3, 4.

This would pretty much fix the system's problems and give cause for other classes to celebrate the reduced Class Stat cost. Racial costs should remain as they are, in my opinion, though I would like some critique on that as well.

I'd appreciate the Healing Amplification line costs to be reduced for Monks, but that is just my particular fetish.

[Xeraphim]

Ninja Spy 3d6 Sneak Damage when applied to Halfling lines is nice, but where do you get the CHA for Dark Attacks? Naturally, it comes out of your AC. With the already reduced HP of the Ninja Spy, losing those AC points can really hurt! I'd like someone who is looking forward to Ninja Spy AC builds to comment on this, though the general train of thought is fairly obvious.

[Xeraphim]

Addressing Ki Strikes - Most players don't like having to constantly and steadily bash a key on their keyboard while trying to maximize their DPS against a raid boss(Wind Strike), or mash 4 buttons when trying to DPS through a quest. I'd like the option to enable Lesser Ki Strikes as a toggle that keeps a steady drain on generated Ki in exchange for the selected element type added to every swing, reduced of course by the amount of ki being drained in proportion to the stance level. [Example: Tier I Earth: 1 acid damage per hit per ki, Tier II Water: 3 Frost damage per hit per ki, Tier III Wind: 5 Shock Damage Per hit Per ki, Tier IV Fire: 8 Fire damage per hit per ki, or 10 in my opinion for how hard it is to get there, as one would attempt to get grandmastery in 1-2 stances, with 3-4 being far too costly in build points and in AP]


Yes, finishers would not be an option with such a thing enabled, but in the average quest grind and on certain bosses it may be a good thing.

Of course, I am considering the cost of 1 ki per hit per Lesser Ki Strike, reducing Fire stance with Lesser Wind Ki Strikes on to 1 ki per hit, or Lesser Fire and Lesser Wind on at the same time to 0 ki generation per hit. With no Ki Regeneration, of course the toggles would have no ki to drain and would automatically negate themselves. This encourages the Oremi set usage, particularly on Ninja Spies.

I would also like the ability for some Monks to use two ToD sets that benefit their class, rather than a situation where both quest pieces are a necklace. As it is, many classes use the Shintao or Ninja Spy set with the Assassin, Frenzied berserker, Kensai and other sets, but Monks must look outside their own sets(often to the Frenzied set) for gain in that area, despite them being of the most gain to Monks. It's been a side note, but the additional trouble with Monk ToD sets is that they are not True Reincarnate friendly, which is why I ask for Greensteel Rings to be added to the recipes(Like ToD rings, but with no stats).

[Xeraphim]

Tactics Lines in the Fighter and Barbarian classes, and for the Dwarf and Warforged races make their Stunning Blow checks harder to resist. Monks do not have a Tactics Line at all, and would be hard pressed to afford the AP for one.

Barbarians rely on their Rage for Stunning Blow DC, and Fighters rely on Power Surge, but what do Monks have? Currently nothing.

[Xeraphim]

Void Strike 4 is noted to require 16 STR 16 DEX 16 WIS and 16 CON base here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252985), as well as cost a great deal of AP getting both TO it and getting it.

This invalidates(or seriously injures) two of the currently 4 available successful Monk builds, and demands multiclassing for AP reasons(as well as a +2 tome of supreme ability).

In this case, the Path of Inevitable Dominion needs to use these 4 stats for ALL of its difficulty checks, or the DCs need to be inherently raised to compensate the Monks using them.

[Drfirewater79]

First:

1) Addressing Criticals: It appears the playerbase REALLY wants a way to beef up the Monk Critical Multiplier and Range, with the Multiplier being the hot topic. This is a topic that I very much want to keep out of the Stance discussion, to avoid making one stance "Teh neu Uber".

2) Addressing Stances: Wind stance keeps Monks on Live equal to if not greater than Tempest IIIs, which I want to definitely keep alive. Tempest III has the option of x3 multipliers on their weapons, and Monks should hit more often to close the gap, if not have the ability to equip a ML 12 item to increase their critical multiplier(Unarmed Only, Monk Exclusive, Multiclasses cannot use). Fire stance is underwhelming, but a love of many new players. Wind stance is the speed stance and needs to stay that way(movement bonus with it would be nice too). Water stance is awesome for fights with lots of spells happening, and great for leaping through traps and soloing quests, but even so could use a little touch of love. Earth stance is only used when blocking in certain raids, and needs a serious adjustment before it becomes a viable combat choice. Void stance isn't even an idea yet, but would be cool to see.

3) Addressing the 5 stat needs of the Dark Monk and the 6 stat needs of the Dark DEX/WIS AC based Ninja Spy, as well as the difficult balance implied to all Monks in relation to these issues. Some Dark attacks could be made a check other than CHA, but I would like to see some discussion as to avoid unbalancing the entire system with the 36 WIS Halfling Monk. Example: Falling Star Strike based on your CON modifier, or on your STR modifier, others based on WIS, one based on INT, etc. Monks tend to focus hard in CON DEX STR and WIS, adding CHA is just too much, especially if they have to start with INT enough for Combat Expertise.

4) AP Problems - Currently a Monk can specialize in 1 stance, or if he sacrifices some HP or abilities, 2 stances. If he wants 2 stances and the special attack finisher, he will lose the majority of the rest of his Enhancements. Adding a Prestige Enhancement line to this already starved AP progression unbalances it to the point of breaking the Monk's potential at endgame, whereas other classes have the option of finishing their HP lines and taking their PrE with a good bit of AP left for Racial and Class stats.

5) I want some Dev Opinion in here, but would really appreciate the players not flaming them. I know there are other threads out there for Monks, but they have dissolved into flamewar on how to overpower or break the class.

1) I never had a problem with not having a x3 crit mod on my monk ... maybe having 3 monks doesnt make me an expert but my dps seems just fine minus the fact that light monks dont have greensteel or a 500 points strike in return for getting buffs they can never use effectivly cept in TOD and generally useless healing ability which without the right gear takes longer to cast and for less hps then a cure serious pot.

a times 3 crit mod isnt needed cause monks hit faster ...

that being said in update 5 we no longer swing as fast and double strike doesnt make up for the dps difference at all (tested using same rare mob staying in wind stance lama as shintao II and live as straight light monk and live was 26 seconds vs lama 42 seconds solo) So a bigger crit range or multiplier would be nice but really its not needed ....

however i wouldn't hate on seeing some special handwraps with metaline and a good quality coming out with a crafting system allowing them to increase there crit range and multiplier in a way that stacks with improved crit blugeon ...

but really why do we need that when we have weighted ... .I mean Stunning +10 handwraps ? for raid bosses? i am sorry 500 points every 15 seconds as a dark monk makes up for lack of crit multiplier and weighted handwraps make up for crit range ... its why they did it .. .this has already been fixed (also there idea of fixing greensteel giving darks 500 and lights smite and eventually exalted smite)

2) I would love to see void stance as a dark monk only option .... leaving void strike chain as light monk only option ... with new changes to the game it would be cool I agree ....

also since wind stance is no longer faster ... fire stance 1 seems more benifitial then windstance 4 for an ac monk ... this needs to be fixed ....

i agree with this one fully.

3) While it may seem like you need to many stats as a monk its really not that hard to build one that is effective in combat ...

its all about the race .....

halflings get monk dex and halfling dex in enhancements ... same with elfs

if your a dwarf you get con same as warforged ...

the best way to do it in my opinion is start with your to hit number and your wisdom at full possible (in my case halfling dex 20 and wis 18) then remove two points from both stat (dex 18 wis 16 causeing two points of ac to go bye bye) then put int to 10 (expect to grind out +3 int tome for combat expertise to make up for lost 2 ac by gaining 5) put str to 10 and rest into con ... this will end you with a large dex (to hit) in wind stance and a still great dex in any other stance ... boost your str to about 20 in fire stance 1 where i spend most of my time ... and about 402 hps in wind stance 4 and 422 in fire stance 1. fully buffed near a pali your gonna see about 85ac after combat expertise but you will spend most of your time in the 60-70 range depending on ac gear you choose to wear (chattering vs tod ring jed'tika vs chaos guards ... icy vs DT)

the cha isnt needed .. i have base 8 cha on my monk and i hit my dance on epic all the time and have a umd of 34.5 on lama and 33.5 on live (i love the top hat) and agian especially in update 5 stunning is the way to go anyway ... most times even on epic they are dead before they break it and the whole time i am hitting them i am stunning them over and over anyway.

i use full heal scrolls at 65% and that will only go down to 60% when i switch back to dark monk in update 5 and get my top hat.

4)I agree monks have alot of AP requirements ... and with pre's now its even more ... all the light monk stances required for pheonix and all the side attacks needed plus halfling guile and dex which are dps requirements for light monks .... dark monks needing all the pre reqs for ninja spy and the Touch of Death and halfling guile ..

right now its monks and pale masters needing more AP to be valueable then any other pre and class. since we do less over all dps in update 5 this needs to be addressed they need to lower AP cost considerably and add dps options like monk melee damage enhancement which can later be used as pre req for henshin mystic.

5) I agree ... I hate it when threads turn into flame wars about overpowered monks or broken multiclass BS ....

at the same time .... some issues are not issues but minor inconveniences and the fact that dev's dont respond is why they turn into flame wars.

[Drfirewater79]

Ninja Spy 3d6 Sneak Damage when applied to Halfling lines is nice, but where do you get the CHA for Dark Attacks? Naturally, it comes out of your AC. With the already reduced HP of the Ninja Spy, losing those AC points can really hurt! I'd like someone who is looking forward to Ninja Spy AC builds to comment on this, though the general train of thought is fairly obvious.

is this a lama thing ??? when last i checked on live my monk never needed to pass a SR or a DC for his 500 point attack ... the debuffs suck so who cares if they work or not ... but that being said ... again they worked just fine on epic on live ... is there a change in lama i dont know about ... cant test dark for one more day cause of feat change for light monk shintao requirement testing i did.

[Drfirewater79]

Void Strike 4 is noted to require 16 STR 16 DEX 16 WIS and 16 CON base here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252985), as well as cost a great deal of AP getting both TO it and getting it.

This invalidates(or seriously injures) two of the currently 4 available successful Monk builds, and demands multiclassing for AP reasons(as well as a +2 tome of supreme ability).

In this case, the Path of Inevitable Dominion needs to use these 4 stats for ALL of its difficulty checks.

void stance sucks anyway ... when are you gonna use it as a dark or light monk the buff sucks and only lasts 10 seconds and the dps isnt enough to make it worth not doing the 500 point strike instead.

[Drfirewater79]

Tactics Lines in the Fighter and Barbarian classes, and for the Dwarf and Warforged races make their Stunning Blow checks harder to resist. Monks do not have a Tactics Line at all, and would be hard pressed to afford the AP for one.

Barbarians rely on their Rage for Stunning Blow DC, and Fighters rely on Power Surge, but what do Monks have? Currently nothing.

reason we dont have the stunning line tactical enhancements is cause they are too costly in AP first off and secondly most monks in lama are netting anywhere from 38-45 dcs with stunning +10 handwraps anyway ... why do we need more ... weighted 5% is the most needed weapon live today and stunning +10 is the most needed tomorrow .... funny enough weighted 5% becomes stunning +10 so there is no need to hunt for other options ... you prolly already have it ... since we get dps from TOD rings its the reason we dont get the options for other dc changes in enhancements.

ps

I wouldnt mind if monk wisdom bonus was added to stunning dc to even things out a bit ... on the rage power serge point which is quite vaild.

[Drfirewater79]

Addressing Ki Strikes - Most players don't like having to constantly and steadily bash a key on their keyboard while trying to maximize their DPS against a raid boss(Wind Strike), or mash 4 buttons when trying to DPS through a quest. I'd like the option to enable Lesser Ki Strikes as a toggle that keeps a steady drain on generated Ki in exchange for the selected element type added to every swing, reduced of course by the amount of ki being drained in proportion to the stance level. [Example: Tier I Earth: 1 acid damage per hit per ki, Tier II Water: 3 Frost damage per hit per ki, Tier III Wind: 5 Shock Damage Per hit Per ki, Tier IV Fire: 8 Fire damage per hit per ki, or 10 in my opinion for how hard it is to get there, as one would attempt to get grandmastery in 1-2 stances, with 3-4 being far too costly in build points and in AP]


Yes, finishers would not be an option with such a thing enabled, but in the average quest grind and on certain bosses it may be a good thing.

Of course, I am considering the cost of 1 ki per hit per Lesser Ki Strike, reducing Fire stance with Lesser Wind Ki Strikes on to 1 ki per hit, or Lesser Fire and Lesser Wind on at the same time to 0 ki generation per hit. With no Ki Regeneration, of course the toggles would have no ki to drain and would automatically negate themselves. This encourages the Oremi set usage, particularly on Ninja Spies.

I would also like the ability for some Monks to use two ToD sets that benefit their class, rather than a situation where both quest pieces are a necklace. As it is, many classes use the Shintao or Ninja Spy set with the Assassin, Frenzied berserker, Kensai and other sets, but Monks must look outside their own sets(often to the Frenzied set) for gain in that area, despite them being of the most gain to Monks. It's been a side note, but the additional trouble with Monk ToD sets is that they are not True Reincarnate friendly, which is why I ask for Greensteel Rings to be added to the recipes(Like ToD rings, but with no stats).

I like this idea but i also see them doing it as a feat line choice or a enhancement line choice which to me are two areas that we are already drained in ... unlikely they will just add the dps to the stance which would be my prefered choice and then leave the extra attacks as finihsers (wind 1 doing 1 strike of elec damage wind 2 doing 1d6 wind 3 2d6 and wind 4 3d6 automatically and same for all stances would make monks more attractive to people who hate the combos)

that being said i have no problem with current combo system ... cause i come from console background ... I think people who have problems with the current combo system dont understand it and prolly dont use there hot keys on fighters either ...

spamming attacks is a part of mmos its not origional to DDO.

[Xeraphim]

last i checked on live my monk never needed to pass a SR or a DC for his 500 point attack

I meant the other Dark attacks that you never use: Fire Dark Fire, Water Dark Water, or was I misinformed regarding the CHA check by a Dark monk on Argonnessen?

I only ever use Light


Further, 500 points seems a bit excessive, unless Light gets a rather tasty Smite effect(300+ points per hit on a non min/max build), we're going to see a deliberate sway to the Dark Side(I mean seriously, 3d6+8 with +4 to hit on every unbalanced/stunned opponent, THEN add your 500 point death punch? Talk about overpowered!)

[Xeraphim]

I like this idea but i also see them doing it as a feat line choice or a enhancement line choice which to me are two areas that we are already drained in ... unlikely they will just add the dps to the stance which would be my prefered choice and then leave the extra attacks as finihsers (wind 1 doing 1 strike of elec damage wind 2 doing 1d6 wind 3 2d6 and wind 4 3d6 automatically and same for all stances would make monks more attractive to people who hate the combos)

that being said i have no problem with current combo system ... cause i come from console background ... I think people who have problems with the current combo system dont understand it and prolly dont use there hot keys on fighters either ...

spamming attacks is a part of mmos its not origional to DDO.


You know how Monks automatically get the base stances granted to them? This is basically how the idea would work in my cognition. Instead of seeing Stance, Attack as the Enhancement dropdown, you see Stance, Attack, Lesser Ki Strike Toggle. I know I would use it nearly all the time.

Of course, for Portal Beating I would like one that grants Force damage, or a sustained Light one that adds Good damage(without bypassing Good Damage Reduction, based on total Monk level, increases by 1 damage per 3 Monk levels), and for Dark one that adds Evil(Again, without bypassing DR).

[Lleren]

While I would love to remove the clicky spam that is playing a monk, I think it is too late to do so.

I would love if some of the abilities could be done as maintained with a ticking Ki cost though.

[Xeraphim]

While I would love to remove the clicky spam that is playing a monk, I think it is too late to do so.

I would love if some of the abilities could be done as maintained with a ticking Ki cost though.

Like a sustained version of Abundant Step... that would absolutely rock!...

heh, I think our ideas may be looked at in a few years, but for now the Turbine Staff plate is overflowing.

[Borror0]

1) Addressing Criticals: It appears the playerbase REALLY wants a way to beef up the Monk Critical Multiplier and Range, with the Multiplier being the hot topic. This is a topic that I very much want to keep out of the Stance discussion, to avoid making one stance "Teh neu Uber".
I don't see any motivation behind this change. "Players want it" is not always a good justification and I don't think it is in this case. All this would lead to is homogenization of the class. The inability for monks to achieve greater critical multiplier while centered is not a balance issue nor does it enhance gameplay in anyway. In fact, it is even the cause of a "buff" to DPS versus undeads since most builds suffer a greater DPS loss than monks.

Earth stance is only used when blocking in certain raids, and needs a serious adjustment before it becomes a viable combat choice.
As have been brought up several times in the past, Earth stance ought to be the "tanking stance" which means a good part of its benefits ought to comprise a bonus to hate generation. Any other bonuses it would then receive should be balanced in consequence.

Addressing the 5 stat needs of the Dark Monk and the 6 stat needs of the Dark DEX/WIS AC based Ninja Spy
You should elaborate more on why this is an issue. It currently reads as "please buff me."

Addressing Ki Strikes - Most players don't like having to constantly and steadily bash a key on their keyboard while trying to maximize their DPS against a raid boss(Wind Strike), or mash 4 buttons when trying to DPS through a quest.
I would be curious as to why those players decided to play a monk since monks are about activating skills in order to maintain DPS.

[Xeraphim]

I don't see any motivation behind this change. "Players want it" is not always a good justification and I don't think it is in this case. All this would lead to is homogenization of the class. The inability for monks to achieve greater critical multiplier while centered is not a balance issue nor does it enhance gameplay in anyway. In fact, it is even the cause of a "buff" to DPS versus undeads since most builds suffer a greater DPS loss than monks.

It was made a huge deal in the Stance discussion thread. Honestly I don't mind the x2 critical so long as Monks maintain the highest number of attacks in the game in Wind 4 stance(with haste, for comparison purposes only).
__________________________________________________ ___________________

As have been brought up several times in the past, Earth stance ought to be the "tanking stance" which means a good part of its benefits ought to comprise a bonus to hate generation. Any other bonuses it would then receive should be balanced in consequence.

This was part of the Stance Discussion and I think it's a good idea, perhaps even up to 100% or 150% hate generation due to the majority of the time spent blocking. Though that does seem extreme, do remind yourself that you would be competing with 800 point critical hits as a tiny little monk for the purpose of holding aggro.
__________________________________________________ ___________________


You should elaborate more on why this is an issue. It currently reads as "please buff me."

I actually do not have a Dark AC Monk, so am speaking out of related experience.
__________________________________________________ ___________________


I would be curious as to why those players decided to play a monk since monks are about activating skills in order to maintain DPS.

So you assert that I should actively mash my buttons into oblivion while you hit autoattack and sit back and sip a beer? I'd rather drop my stress levels too in a DPS tradeoff for being lazy. As you know Ki Strikes do a healthy 2d8 or 3d7 or some such(I don't look closely anymore, the numbers are a mess anyway) for a small amount of ki, and I would like other monks as well to avoid destroying their Alt or Shift keys(as I bound strikes to those as well as a few others) in order to keep up with the rest of the group. I'd like to sip a beer too. As for the other players that have talked with me about Monks in general, they do like the class, but do not like the AP costs to stay competetive, or the fact that they are actively mashing buttons just to keep DPS up.

Remarks in red

[REALb0r3d]

A change in that new moment of clarity from +5 to hit to +5 to damage seems like a balancing move to me to bring the two styles closer to each other.

This would allow light monks to buff allies in a group and contribute to with damage comparable or higher than FoD depending on attack speed and number of DPS types.

This is all I got, making breakfast burritos :D

/zoom

[Xeraphim]

A change in that new moment of clarity from +5 to hit to +5 to damage seems like a balancing move to me to bring the two styles closer to each other.

This would allow light monks to buff allies in a group and contribute to with damage comparable or higher than FoD depending on attack speed and number of DPS types.

This is all I got, making breakfast burritos :D

/zoom

That's actually a good one, though 10 seconds is still WAY too short. 30 seconds is reasonable, but still pretty short. The 1 minute buff timers are extremely short currently, and I would like seeing Walk the Sun and Aligning the Heavens and such become like the Clicky Metamagics - 3 minute buffs. I would expect that Dark Debuffs got an equivalent extension.

For To-Hit issues I use Walk the Sun, so I would want it to not stack with the Void Light Void(same bonus type) to avoid overpowering it. Changing Moment of Clarity then to a Damage boost is probably the best way to go about it.

[Borror0]

So you assert that I should actively mash my buttons into oblivion while you hit autoattack and sit back and sip a beer?
Some classes intentionally require more skills than others, to cater to different type of players. If you find that your class or build require too much skills, then you should consider playing another class or build that is better suited for you.

Additionally, comparing monk's design to the blatantly poor design of other classes is a weak argument. It is common knowledge that long fights tend to be boring for most melee classes because all they have to do is standstill and hold their right mouse button (or, worse, activate autotattack). It is those classes that should be made more alike monks, rather than the reverse, in order to make longer fights more enjoyable to them.

That is not to say I discount the possibility that the average monk feels there are too many keys to press for the class to be enjoyable (read: the current design caters to a too small demographic) but, if that is the case, the best fix would be to decrease the frequency at which monks need to press keys to maintain DPS, not what you suggested.

[twoton]

Well lets see monks that get earth stance ki strikes have a x4 crit multiplier as finisher. Iron fists is a x3 crit multiplier and if your building a dps monk you should be going dark path anyways so there is a 500 point dmg strike. now earth stance ki strike 4 adds 16 extra dmg to your base dmg attack on that strike, then you have 12 dmg from earth ki strike 3 and, then you have earth ki strike 2 which adds 8.

You factor in that the slow down to windstance and I think that will open up the ideal of maybe using other stances like fire stance (which after my testing on both test server and live server) I may which to fire stance after U5 even after they fix the bug with fire stance. The str build monk will actually come out a little bit ahead in dmg going fire than wind if they keep the speed of wind stance the same from test servers to live servers.

[Xeraphim]

You factor in that the slow down to windstance and I think that will open up the ideal of maybe using other stances like fire stance (which after my testing on both test server and live server) I may which to fire stance after U5 even after they fix the bug with fire stance. The str build monk will actually come out a little bit ahead in dmg going fire than wind if they keep the speed of wind stance the same from test servers to live servers.

You seem to forget the offhand Proc rate for GTWF versus Wind 4. 100%/60% vs 110%(10% doublestrike)/100% means Wind 4 with good wraps comes out ahead in secondary DPS, while Fire 4 comes ahead in base DPS. It's a tradeoff. Fire would therefore be better for Dark monks to build ki for the OMGOverpowered 500 point Death Punch and to use on things that cannot be critically hit(like undead), whereas Wind would be better for the Sneak Attack benefits and burst effects.

[Xeraphim]

That is not to say I discount the possibility that the average monk feels there are too many keys to press for the class to be enjoyable (read: the current design caters to a too small demographic) but, if that is the case, the best fix would be to decrease the frequency at which monks need to press keys to maintain DPS, not what you suggested.

You need to also consider that Monk is now a class that heavily benefits True Reincarnates, and that more players that favor the "Kick back and relax" mode during Raid Boss fights will be making them due to this fact. Some would rather just refresh their Power Surge, feeling that Frenzy and Death Frenzy timers are too short.

Raid Bosses are the only place I get to really make use of my Damage Boosts, because most times I forget about them, as an example. 20 second boosts and ki strikes are commonly forgotten when changing from a Fighter or Ranger to a Monk in a chain of raids.

[Xionanx]

Posted this in another thread, but it seemed appropriate here as well:

Well, playing off someone's suggestion earlier, why not give top tier stances a proc-chance for some of the greensteele effects monks don't have access to on their hand wraps.

Wind - Aspect of Lightning - Lightning Strike
Earth - Aspect of Earth - Earth grab
Fire - Aspect of Magma - Magma Surge
Water - Aspect of Ice - Freezing Ice

Or perhaps change the way stances work entirely and simply change them into green-steel like AP abilities that unlock modes of attack similar to how the Arcane Archer works. Bear with me here as this is going to be a long example and will require you to forget how monks currently function in stances.

For instance:

Wind 1 - 1 AP - Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Dexterity
Wind 2 - 2 AP - Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Dexterity and gives access to Lightning Stance I
Wind 3 - 4 AP - Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Dexterity and gives access to Lightning Stance II
Wind 4 - 6 AP - Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Dexterity and gives access to Lightning Stance III
Water 1 - 1 AP - Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Wisdom
Water 2 - 2 AP - Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Wisdom and gives access to Water Stance I
Water 3 - 4 AP - Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Wisdom and gives access to Water Stance II
Water 4 - 6 AP - Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Wisdom and gives access to Water Stance III
Fire 1 - 1 AP - Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Strength
Fire 2 - 2 AP - Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Strength and gives access to Fire Stance I
Fire 3 - 4 AP - Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Strength and gives access to Fire Stance II
Fire 4 - 6 AP - Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Strength and gives access to Fire Stance III
Earth 1 - 1 AP Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Constitution
Earth 1 - 2 AP Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Constitution and gives access to Earth Stance I
Earth 1 - 4 AP Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Constitution and gives access to Earth Stance II
Earth 1 - 6 AP Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Constitution and gives access to Earth Stance III

Basic Stances:
Lightning Stance I - 2 AP - Adds Shock to all your unarmed attacks
Lightning Stance II - 4 AP - Adds Shocking Burst to all your unarmed attacks
Lightning Stance III - 6 AP - Adds Shocking Blast to all your unarmed attacks and Lightning Strike (Just like Tier 3 Greensteel Air Air Air)
Water Stance I - 2 AP - Adds Frost to all your unarmed attacks
Water Stance II - 4 AP - Adds Frost Burst to all your unarmed attacks
Water Stance III - 6 AP - Adds Frost Blast to all your unarmed attacks and Crushing Wave (Just like Tier 3 Greensteele Water Water Water)
Fire Stance I - 2 AP - Adds Flaming to all your unarmed attacks
Fire Stance II - 4 AP - Adds Flaming Burst to all your unarmed attacks
Fire Stance II - 6 AP - Adds Fire Blast to all your unarmed attacks and Incineration (Just like Tier 3 Greensteel Fire Fire Fire)
Earth Stance I - 2 AP - Adds Acid to all your unarmed attacks
Earth Stance II - 4 AP - Adds Acid Burst to all your unarmed attacks
Earth Stance III - 6 AP - Adds Acid Blast to all your unarmed attacks and Earthgrab (Just like Tier 3 Greensteel Earth Earth Earth)

Combo Stances would create additional Greensteel like effects and require variations of the above Stances and either Path of Harmonious Balance (Positive/Escalation) or Path of Inevitable Dominion (Negative/Dominion).

This would IMO kill multiple birds with one sweeping change:

First, all the monk stances would be useful in some way.
Second, all the "we dont have green steel" complaints for unarmed combat would be gone.
Third, monks would be a lot more useful to party DPS then they are now and could bring with them a variety of interesting effects.

And before people start screaming it would be overpowered, remember you would have to be level 18 to gain access to the highest tier stances and the AP cost is extremely high so its not like you can "have it all". Just to have lightning strike on your unarmed attack it would cost you 25 total AP. If anything I have made this TOO weak!

Besides this is just a rough draft I tossed together in a few minutes as the idea struck me, I'm sure there is room for improvement and or changes. However I do feel that something along these lines would be preferable to what we have now.

[Borror0]

You need to also consider that Monk is now a class that heavily benefits True Reincarnates, and that more players that favor the "Kick back and relax" mode during Raid Boss fights will be making them due to this fact. Some would rather just refresh their Power Surge, feeling that Frenzy and Death Frenzy timers are too short.
I know that. It is one of the biggest flaw of the True Reincarnation system: it makes players play classes they may not enjoy playing. It is one of the few reasons I advocated against the implementation of TR or at least its modification to avoid several of its flaws (this one included).

[QuantumFX]

The major problem I have with the monk class, right now, is that the developers are going overboard with the special attacks. It can already overwhelm players and the devs are adding to the number of special attacks and abilities.

It took me weeks to get a decent keyboard layout that works with my Harmonious Balance monk. It requires me to know which toolbar I’m on, and I can easily screw up which stance I’m in. Unlike all my other characters I have to switch weapons by using my mouse. On Lamania I switched over to Ninja Spy. Unfortunately, I lost a lot of elemental strikes that I used in specialized situations (Spamming Air strikes at Harry.) but gained a lot of debuffs that I simply couldn’t use because I’m out of keys to map!

My guild leader described it best when I asked him how he liked playing his paladin: “The paladin is a lot of fun. It’s kind of like playing a monk without all the clickie nonsense.”

Harmonious Balance Buffs:
The positive monk buffs should get the following changes:

- It seems like the developers think of the Harmonious Balance buffs as being like a paladin’s Divine Might. The major problem with this thinking is that a paladin can simply hit his DM button while a monk needs to carefully time strikes and hit a finisher button. This makes the buffs tedious to use and overwhelms a player. Because of this I think all timers should be increased to 1 minute + 6 seconds per monk level.

- Since it appears that the developers would like the Harmonious Balance buffs to stack they should consider changing the Air/Pos/Air finisher to a 10% incorporeal bonus.

Shintao Monk:
Personally, I think the devs should stop thinking of the Shintao Monk as a pseudo-paladin and start thinking of it as “the master of positive ki”.

Tier I:
Add Whirling Steel Strike to the list of optional prereq feats. The Order of the Broken Blade matches this PrE so well that it would be silly not to allow it.

The Smite Evil ability is kind of nice, but needs a lot more focus. As it’s currently implemented it contributes to the overwhelming nature of monk attacks, doesn’t address a HB monks need for improved DPS and has a redonculous KI cost and cooldown timer. However, it also steps into paladin territory.

IMO the ability should replace the Fists of Light ability (similar to how Exalted Smite replaces Smite Evil) It should have the same cost, same cooldown, hit the target with Curse of Healing and do the standard Smite Evil Damage.

The Protection from Evil clickie should be dropped. It has no basis in the P&P prestige class and makes little sense in DDO. A better alternative would be for all finishers to double in duration as if they were extended. (This is to help emulate the fact that P&P shintao have 24/7 Grasp of the Earth Dragon.)

A nice passive ability would be to give Shintao monks the ability to gain +1 Ki for every successful strike on a foe that has the Curse of Healing effect on them.

Tier II:
The banish effect is kind of nice but really, it suffers from 2 major problems. It does nothing to red named and doesn’t fit the flavor of the source class.

To pull a couple ideas from the Oriental Adventure sourcebook.
- Allow Shintao monks to cast Protection from Fire/Protection from Cold from ki.
- Allow Shintao monks to have a ki ability that mimics the intimidate skill. Give it a will save of 10 + Monk Level + WIS mod.

Tier III:
- Pulling from the Book of Exalted Deeds sourcebook allow Shintao Monks to use their WIS modifier instead of their STR or DEX modifier for their to hit while centered. This would give WIS based monks a purpose and would synergize nicely with the plans you have for Water stance.
- Add onto the ki based intimidate ability with a mass mezz effect that breaks on being damaged.
- Allow a Shintao monk to fire off any positive buff finishing move without the prerequisite shadowboxing. Offset it by multiplying the ki cost by 3. Since, by then the buff effects will be, you know, useful... a shintao monk won't need to hotkey the **** things.

[Xeraphim]

Posted this in another thread, but it seemed appropriate here as well:

Well, playing off someone's suggestion earlier, why not give top tier stances a proc-chance for some of the greensteel effects monks don't have access to on their hand wraps.

Wind - Aspect of Lightning - Lightning Strike
Earth - Aspect of Earth - Earth grab
Fire - Aspect of Magma - Magma Surge
Water - Aspect of Ice - Freezing Ice

Or perhaps change the way stances work entirely and simply change them into green-steel like AP abilities that unlock modes of attack similar to how the Arcane Archer works. Bear with me here as this is going to be a long example and will require you to forget how monks currently function in stances.

For instance:

Wind 1 - 1 AP - Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Dexterity
Wind 2 - 2 AP - Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Dexterity and gives access to Lightning Stance I
Wind 3 - 4 AP - Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Dexterity and gives access to Lightning Stance II
Wind 4 - 6 AP - Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Dexterity and gives access to Lightning Stance III
Water 1 - 1 AP - Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Wisdom
Water 2 - 2 AP - Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Wisdom and gives access to Water Stance I
Water 3 - 4 AP - Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Wisdom and gives access to Water Stance II
Water 4 - 6 AP - Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Wisdom and gives access to Water Stance III
Fire 1 - 1 AP - Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Strength
Fire 2 - 2 AP - Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Strength and gives access to Fire Stance I
Fire 3 - 4 AP - Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Strength and gives access to Fire Stance II
Fire 4 - 6 AP - Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Strength and gives access to Fire Stance III
Earth 1 - 1 AP Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Constitution
Earth 1 - 2 AP Grants a +1 Insight Bonus to Constitution and gives access to Earth Stance I
Earth 1 - 4 AP Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Constitution and gives access to Earth Stance II
Earth 1 - 6 AP Grants a +2 Insight Bonus to Constitution and gives access to Earth Stance III

Basic Stances:
Lightning Stance I - 2 AP - Adds Shock to all your unarmed attacks
Lightning Stance II - 4 AP - Adds Shocking Burst to all your unarmed attacks
Lightning Stance III - 6 AP - Adds Shocking Blast to all your unarmed attacks and Lightning Strike (Just like Tier 3 Greensteel Air Air Air)
Water Stance I - 2 AP - Adds Frost to all your unarmed attacks
Water Stance II - 4 AP - Adds Frost Burst to all your unarmed attacks
Water Stance III - 6 AP - Adds Frost Blast to all your unarmed attacks and Crushing Wave (Just like Tier 3 Greensteele Water Water Water)
Fire Stance I - 2 AP - Adds Flaming to all your unarmed attacks
Fire Stance II - 4 AP - Adds Flaming Burst to all your unarmed attacks
Fire Stance II - 6 AP - Adds Fire Blast to all your unarmed attacks and Incineration (Just like Tier 3 Greensteel Fire Fire Fire)
Earth Stance I - 2 AP - Adds Acid to all your unarmed attacks
Earth Stance II - 4 AP - Adds Acid Burst to all your unarmed attacks
Earth Stance III - 6 AP - Adds Acid Blast to all your unarmed attacks and Earthgrab (Just like Tier 3 Greensteel Earth Earth Earth)

Combo Stances would create additional Greensteel like effects and require variations of the above Stances and either Path of Harmonious Balance (Positive/Escalation) or Path of Inevitable Dominion (Negative/Dominion).

This would IMO kill multiple birds with one sweeping change:

First, all the monk stances would be useful in some way.
Second, all the "we dont have green steel" complaints for unarmed combat would be gone.
Third, monks would be a lot more useful to party DPS then they are now and could bring with them a variety of interesting effects.

And before people start screaming it would be overpowered, remember you would have to be level 18 to gain access to the highest tier stances and the AP cost is extremely high so its not like you can "have it all". Just to have lightning strike on your unarmed attack it would cost you 25 total AP. If anything I have made this TOO weak!

Besides this is just a rough draft I tossed together in a few minutes as the idea struck me, I'm sure there is room for improvement and or changes. However I do feel that something along these lines would be preferable to what we have now.


Why not put the strikes on Rings that apply Holy and Shocking Burst? Lightning II Greensteel Ring... though it is definitely attractive to have on a Stance, that may become a bit problematic for the Monk later on, having to switch attack rates, DR, AC and to-hit on the fly for the damage effect.

Yes, I know that having to use ring slots for Shroud Weapon effects is extremely unattractive to Monks in general... just looking for a way to balance it. The stances you propose would eliminate Wind, Water, Earth and Fire stances as they are and replace them with base bonuses to the character, with 3 total stances per line accessible as it appears. Please revise to note attack rates(alacrity %'s), Stat adjustments(+ and -), Added effects(DR, Saves, etc) and such. I like them pretty much as they are live but could stand to see some change(flexible and adaptive personality).

Else, I do favor this ideas implementation for the proc and extra stance based damage, as proposed in the other Stances thread that you probably didn't read. You merely elaborated on the idea.

Furthermore, you must take into account how starved Monks are for AP as they are on Live, and understand that 6 AP is in some cases 450,000 XP. Those AP costs need to come down dramatically, unless the insight bonuses as are they appear, overpowered direct permanent bonuses to your character(in which case the idea will be discarded to discourage Monk splash Flavor of the Month builds for the insight stats - we need LESS exploits, not more).

[atxken]

Posted this in another thread, but it seemed appropriate here as well:

Well, playing off someone's suggestion earlier, why not give top tier stances a proc-chance for some of the greensteele effects monks don't have access to on their hand wraps.

Wind - Aspect of Lightning - Lightning Strike
Earth - Aspect of Earth - Earth grab
Fire - Aspect of Magma - Magma Surge
Water - Aspect of Ice - Freezing Ice

Or perhaps change the way stances work entirely and simply change them into green-steel like AP abilities that unlock modes of attack similar to how the Arcane Archer works. Bear with me here as this is going to be a long example and will require you to forget how monks currently function in stances.


Awesome idea, along with other people's.
Don't like the idea that we are having to wait till 18 for our lightning strikes where as everyone else can get there tier 3 gs at a lower level.

[manfredshw]

To build a monk is all about balance.
If you build your stats balanced, and with the help of +3 tome from shroud. one set is needed, two sets is optional. (shroud 40th). You can face any change dev would make.

I playing my dark monk since the first day monk released.

I think I know monk a lot especially for dark monk.

Currently, monk dps is not a problem if you can build monk right and with the right hws. Monk do not need better critical range and mutl. They are already have. Sf can make you critical, iron fist and earth finisher boost mult.
And fist+hw+ki strike+tod rings=fist hit harder then normal twf, and monk got no offhand str pernalty.

As for me, I think why ppl think monk need lots of twink. Because not many ppl know monk better, a new class need a long time to realise its potential and the way how to build it and play it good.

And if you want to play a monk, you must know, the following days, you should attack and act with your binded keyboard, you can't be lazy!!! If you want to play monk relaxing, then play a barb instead.

Monk now got the following problem I think need to twink somehow:
1. stances: earth need buff. I think fire, wind, water have its own use, but earth is too weak compared with the three.

2. ap pre and cost: stances enhancement cost too much. and light, dark path cures and curses cost too much.
Since the first tier of stance is free, why still the other higher level stanced need 2 3 4 ap to buy, make them 1 2 3.
And cures and curses are the same, most monk skill like iron fist and unbalacing, etc are 1 ap. why these are 2?
make them 1 1 1 1 instead.
And pre, now, gm stances and new void attack chain need too many ap requirements.
We only have 80 ap, 64 spent for gm stances, 80-64=16, 16-2capstone=14.
And void attack 4, need another 4 ap to go, how we get better stances? Give up higher stances means you give up dps potential, and better resilience for the long run.

For an ap starved class like monk, why you dev set so high ap spent requirement for them? You want us waste ap on the low trash enhancement? then to select you PRC but meanwhile we also lost our potential?

3. epic weapon: we may not need an e-sos like epic weapon, but at least give us some better hws, with the potential to be epic craft. Then we will have a better dps wise weapon to beat the bada$$. How about +6 force burst, holy, bleed for the boss fight? it is not overpowered. just save us pack slots, I don't need to carry so many bane hw, then I can loot more vender trash. For trash mob, I believe lts of us will stick to +10 stun with resia crafted.

4. finisher
remove the stupit rules which will cancel the finishers. Like open chest, climb ladders, even an emotion will cancel it, ***?

And light path monk need a longer time buff duration. its no fair that 3level monk has the same duration as lv 20monk. Duration should scale by the monk lv!!! Many light monk need to constantly build the finishers, they lost many dps and attack opportunity there. So after many trying, lots of them even don;t bother to use the finishers. A light monk without the buff is gimped, but a light monk constantly build the finisher and then cause to loss the dps is gimped too~!!!!!!!!!

Dark monk finishers have its own use, limited, but sonetimes very powerful. Many players even dark monk players haven't realised it. Why? Because you dev make mobs save too ****ing high. Or just blank immunities. It's skillful to combo a finisher. But some mobs saves are too high, after trying, many ppl dont even bother to use it again. A monk without finishers are not a monk. You dev must stress the monk features! Not like now, force ppl to overlook monk finishers.

Add +10 dc to sf is a good move, but this is a bad move for a dark monk.
Same dc vs fort save after u5, but:

Sf is kind of press to go. 6s cd,
but dark monk finishers are press press press, to go. Too complicated, and easy to canceled or distuped.

I am afraid, in the future, even those finishers mania like me will be lazy to combo and use them.
Not mention for those ppl with dumped wis monk.

I am a Chinses player, my english is not native as most of ppl here.
I hope you guys can understand what I am saying.

But all I said is true and frank and based on a professional monk player who playing monk from the first day. And never stop. Meanwhile, I have tempest ranger, kensai fight, dos pal, sor, clr, assassin rogue.

So I think my observation is valid.

[Xionanx]

Why not put the strikes on Rings that apply Holy and Shocking Burst? Lightning II Greensteel Ring... though it is definitely attractive to have on a Stance, that may become a bit problematic for the Monk later on, having to switch attack rates, DR, AC and to-hit on the fly for the damage effect.

Yes, I know that having to use ring slots for Shroud Weapon effects is extremely unattractive to Monks in general... just looking for a way to balance it. The stances you propose would eliminate Wind, Water, Earth and Fire stances as they are and replace them with base bonuses to the character, with 3 total stances per line accessible as it appears. Please revise to note attack rates(alacrity %'s), Stat adjustments(+ and -), Added effects(DR, Saves, etc) and such. I like them pretty much as they are live but could stand to see some change(flexible and adaptive personality).

Else, I do favor this ideas implementation for the proc and extra stance based damage, as proposed in the other Stances thread that you probably didn't read. You merely elaborated on the idea.

Furthermore, you must take into account how starved Monks are for AP as they are on Live, and understand that 6 AP is in some cases 450,000 XP. Those AP costs need to come down dramatically, unless the insight bonuses as are they appear, overpowered direct permanent bonuses to your character(in which case the idea will be discarded to discourage Monk splash Flavor of the Month builds for the insight stats - we need LESS exploits, not more).

Yeah, I pretty much meant monks loosing any current stance benefits, and yes those are supposed to be "Always in effect" stat bonus's if you spend the AP to get them. Which is also why I made them cost so many AP, to prevent monk splash abuse. If you have to be a level 18 monk to hit Tier 4 for +2 to a stat, well I wouldn't consider that a "splash". If tier 1's become available at level 2, tier 2 at level 6, tier 3 at level 12, and tier 4 at level 18, then 2 levels of splash could only really net you +1 to some stats as an "insight" bonus. Which would also mean it wouldn't stack with any other stat bonus from insight, not that there are many(any?).

Regardless, I dont like the idea of giving monks access to greensteel effects on rings. Either give us Greensteel hand wraps or dont bother. Since the devs seem reluctant or incapable of making GS Hand Wraps, I figured the next "easiest" thing to code would be simply adding the effects in stances.

I would "Prefer":
GS Hand Wraps
TOD Rings = Other Class TOD Rings
1 Button "finishing moves" at higher Ki Cost (Say "Grasp of the Earth Dragon" would cost 50 Ki but not require you to press Earth Light Earth first)
1 Min + 15 Seconds/Level Monk Buff Durations
Randomly Generated HW's to be the same min- level as the equivalent melee weapon rather then 2 levels higher.

Give me the above and 99% of all my monk complaints = solved as all around I think they are pretty much balanced, its just the dev's really borked them on the itemization and the button mashing.

[Xeraphim]

Harmonious Balance Buffs:
The positive monk buffs should get the following changes:

- Since it appears that the developers would like the Harmonious Balance buffs to stack they should consider changing the Air/Pos/Air finisher to a 10% incorporeal bonus.

Won't stack with Wretched Twilight or the Pale Master's Wraith Form. I suggest that for Air Void Light, but propose that Air Light Air stay a Mass Blur effect. I do like the 60 seconds +6 per Monk level to balance the timers.
__________________________________________________ ________________

Shintao Monk:
Personally, I think the devs should stop thinking of the Shintao Monk as a pseudo-paladin and start thinking of it as “the master of positive ki”.

Absolutely. We don't need another Paladin Wannabe, we have enough Fighter/Clerics running around as it is.
__________________________________________________ ________________

Tier I:
Add Whirling Steel Strike to the list of optional prereq feats. The Order of the Broken Blade matches this PrE so well that it would be silly not to allow it.

The Smite Evil ability is kind of nice, but needs a lot more focus. As it’s currently implemented it contributes to the overwhelming nature of monk attacks, doesn’t address a HB monks need for improved DPS and has a redonculous KI cost and cooldown timer. Further, it also steps into paladin territory.

This is why it is such a hated PrE idea at the moment. Compared to Ninja Spy, it's a slap in the face.
__________________________________________________ ________________

IMO the ability should replace the Fists of Light ability (similar to how Exalted Smite replaces Smite Evil) It should have the same cost, same cooldown, hit the target with Curse of Healing and do the standard Smite Evil Damage.

I want to be able to spam my Fist of Light every 6 seconds with no problems, thanks. If a Smite is added to the 10 ki cost Fist of Light with the same 6 second cooldown, I'm all for it(though it seems overpowered at low levels, at higher levels it needs more average damage to compete with the 500 point overpowered punch).
__________________________________________________ ________________

The Protection from Evil clickie should be dropped. It has no basis in the P&P prestige class and makes little sense in DDO. A better alternative would be for all finishers to double in duration as if they were extended. (This is to help emulate the fact that P&P shintao have 24/7 Grasp of the Earth Dragon.)

I would actually like the change to the Shintao Monk to be completely immune to all Hold and Stun effects, and granting it at level 6 would overpower the multiclasses, so would propose it for a Monk 12. As for the "Protection from Evil" ability that will never be used by any monk, I don't see it as a useful ability, even situationally.
__________________________________________________ ________________

A nice passive ability would be to give Shintao monks the ability to gain +1 Ki for every successful strike on a foe that has the Curse of Healing effect on them.

Monks could use more Ki anyway, and though I do like the idea I think of how it could overpower Ki Strikes as compared to other classes running side by side the Monk in quests like Gwylan's Stand, Stormcleave, Ritual Sacrifice and Tower of Despair. If the Smite is separate from the Fist of Light ability, then I am all for the additional Ki generation via Curse of Healing, and ask that said Curse be applicable to ALL monsters, including Pit Fiends and Horned Devils.
__________________________________________________ ________________

Tier II:
The banish effect is kind of nice but really, it suffers from 2 major problems. It does nothing to red named and doesn’t fit the flavor of the source class.

I think this is why:
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Robes/EnlightenedVestments.jpg
Though, I never use them, so I see little point in a Banishing Clickie, but think that an on-hit banishing effect is pretty cool. I would make it a Static Effect with DC10+Monk Level.
__________________________________________________ __________

To pull a couple ideas from the Oriental Adventure sourcebook.
- Allow Shintao monks to cast Protection from Fire/Protection from Cold from ki.
- Allow Shintao monks to have a ki ability that mimics the intimidate skill. Give it a will save of 10 + Monk Level + WIS mod.

Tier III:
- Pulling from the Book of Exalted Deeds sourcebook allow Shintao Monks to use their WIS modifier instead of their STR or DEX modifier for their to hit while centered. This would give WIS based monks a purpose and would synergize nicely with the plans you have for Water stance.

This is actually a really cool idea. Please make it so.

- Add onto the ki based intimidate ability with a mass mezz effect that breaks on being damaged.

No comment here...

- Allow a Shintao monk to fire off any positive buff finishing move without the prerequisite shadowboxing. Offset it by multiplying the ki cost by 3. Since, by then the buff effects will be, you know, useful... a shintao monk won't need to hotkey the **** things.

I would LOVE this instead of that G*)@#&*(%)*****(!)*(@%^!_ _!!@# "You have missed your special attack opportunity" bullsh*t!!

Remarks in red

[Xeraphim]

Regardless, I dont like the idea of giving monks access to greensteel effects on rings. Either give us Greensteel hand wraps or dont bother. Since the devs seem reluctant or incapable of making GS Hand Wraps, I figured the next "easiest" thing to code would be simply adding the effects in stances.

The main reason I advocate against using the Stances as GS effects is because it would then be required of Monks to stop playing how they want and specifically use the best situational stance for the effect, marginalizing the ability to enjoy your build the way you wanted it to be.

I would "Prefer":
GS Hand Wraps - Devs stated "Not possible with the current implementation, or far too time consuming(read: A year or more of Dev Time on that alone)
TOD Rings = Other Class TOD Rings - I don't see the end of the ToD Rings thanks to the Devs putting more PrEs in. Just be patient.
1 Button "finishing moves" at higher Ki Cost (Say "Grasp of the Earth Dragon" would cost 50 Ki but not require you to press Earth Light Earth first) - Proposed by a few others, actually a good idea since that goddamn stupid f$@!(O& mechanic kills about 90 ki for every 4 attempts in a lag-riddled raid.
1 Min + 15 Seconds/Level Monk Buff Durations - Duratuions debated, but they definitely need a boost.
Randomly Generated HW's to be the same min- level as the equivalent melee weapon rather then 2 levels higher. - Agreed. It makes no sense to penalize Monks for 2 levels for identical magical effects.

Give me the above and 99% of all my monk complaints = solved as all around I think they are pretty much balanced, its just the dev's really borked them on the itemization and the button mashing.

Remarks in Bacon

[Drfirewater79]

I meant the other Dark attacks that you never use: Fire Dark Fire, Water Dark Water, or was I misinformed regarding the CHA check by a Dark monk on Argonnessen?

I only ever use Light


Further, 500 points seems a bit excessive, unless Light gets a rather tasty Smite effect(300+ points per hit on a non min/max build), we're going to see a deliberate sway to the Dark Side(I mean seriously, 3d6+8 with +4 to hit on every unbalanced/stunned opponent, THEN add your 500 point death punch? Talk about overpowered!)

yeah i dont know if i would call it over powered cause it has a extreamly high ki cost (50 ki) which unless you are doing nothing else or in firestance you will not beable to achieve.

and as for light monks they are expected to get exalted smite at shintao III

that will balance there dps range with dark monks however until it comes out dark monk is for dps and light monk is for ...... sucking??? personally i like light monk better cause i like the mass heal thing but its cause i like to see green numbers :)

but the mass heal sucks even on a crit against anyone other then myself or anothe rmonk its healing max 70 points and that just isnt worth the time however healing myself for over 150 is nice even though it takes forever to do it .

often faster just to take pots cause they heal me for about 50 points in fire stance.

[QuantumFX]

That is not to say I discount the possibility that the average monk feels there are too many keys to press for the class to be enjoyable (read: the current design caters to a too small demographic) but, if that is the case, the best fix would be to decrease the frequency at which monks need to press keys to maintain DPS, not what you suggested.

It’s not just frequency but sheer numbers of special attacks available.

I use a standard 128 key Cyborg keyboard. On this keyboard I have had to reconfigure every key from Tilde to 6, E-Y, F-H, and Z-B to get my monk to playable. And then I respecced to an Inevitable Dominion monk on Lamannia and realized that I had it easy.

(Not sarcasm, I have no place to put the elemental curse keys or void attacks. And, FYI, any layout you make to work with your monk has to work for all your other characters.)

[Xeraphim]

It’s not just frequency but sheer numbers of special attacks available.

I use a standard 128 key Cyborg keyboard. On this keyboard I have had to reconfigure every key from Tilde to 6, E-Y, F-H, and Z-B to get my monk to playable. And then I respecced to an Inevitable Dominion monk on Lamannia and realized that I had it easy.

(Not sarcasm, I have no place to put the elemental curse keys or void attacks. And, FYI, any layout you make to work with your monk has to work for all your other characters.)

Can you tell that Borror does not have/play a Monk yet?

[QuantumFX]

Can you tell that Borror does not have/play a Monk yet?

That’s why I was trying to help educate him. A lot of players have opinions based on playing a class for a few levels or when the class was released. Right now, I would suggest that not even monk players understand how all the changes will affect the class. I know, I thought I knew all about monks until I tested out Ninja Spy on Lammania. (And they have “clickie creep” much worse than my HB monk!)

[Drfirewater79]

Why not put the strikes on Rings that apply Holy and Shocking Burst? Lightning II Greensteel Ring... t).

I like this idea ...

since its suppost to replace greensteel it might as well give greensteel bonus when using two rings ... this way they allow for two ring requirement however if it is done people will complain that it only takes two rings and two sets of greater (or tier II) ingredients and thus no larges to craft a min II/lightning II procing weapon.

PS

the other thread you demanded get closed .... that is bad taste and very rude my friend .... the other thread has nothing to do with lama and doesnt belong on lama forums ... perhaps you should double check what lama forums are for ...

general discussion is where you post threads about FUTURE changes

lama is where you post threads about current changes

know you know and knowing is half the battle.

[Drfirewater79]

That’s why I was trying to help educate him. A lot of players have opinions based on playing a class for a few levels or when the class was released. Right now, I would suggest that not even monk players understand how all the changes will affect the class. I know, I thought I knew all about monks until I tested out Ninja Spy on Lammania. (And they have “clickie creep” much worse than my HB monk!)

I have not tested ninja spy out yet but dark monk is way less clickie dependant then light monk

its pretty much just hit them till you get enough ki the ToDeath ... on light monk its light fist light light heal light light light heal ... damd no ki switch to fire stance light light light heal ... light light light heal ... ok lots of ki ..

wind stance light light light heal ... shock shock .. light light light heal

its just a ki sponge and shintao sucks cause you wait 30 seconds for 20-100 points of extra damage
and my monk now that he is dark has a 55%(live ... on lama 60% as dark monk) chance at full heal scrolls so light monk is almost not worth it at all cept i can get two more umd with it


I have been testing back and forth lama and live shintao monk for dps difference in wind stance

on live sully look alike in aramath next to gen point (off to the right in the ditch to the left oppisite the named beserka) took 26 seconds to kill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPj-K73w_5I

on lama the same mob with my shintao II upgrade using smites as often as possible (twice) took 42 seconds to kill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B68xi0VdLc

that is a difference of -16 seconds worth of dps ... almost double the time

imagine this in real terms ...

shroud takes a good group about 30 mins give or take 5 mins

now a good group could take as long as 1 hr for same result.

a good group can do you average epic quest in about 10-30 mins depending on the quest ... now 20mins to and hour depending on the quest ..

the difference is staggering and since the beta testers who did the shroud the other day reported WORSE LAG then on live

its sad to say but these changes are going to totally screw the game over .. .both due to loss of players (my guild alone is 20% smaller because of bad lama experiences causing 4 players to rage quit the game) and due to broken game mechanics.

[QuantumFX]

I have not tested ninja spy out yet but dark monk is way less clickie dependant then light monk

Here’s a screenshot of my hotbar layout. Tell me where I can put the elemental debuffs, and void strikes where I can access then with a button on my keyboard. (You get one freebie as Touch of Death gets to occupy the spot where Fists of Light currently lives. You also can’t use B because that's where Fists of Iron currently lives.)

http://my.ddo.com/quantumfx/wp-content/blogs.dir/7530/files/my-gallery/screenshot00271.jpg

That’s right. I can place all my special attacks in convenient locations on my keyboard. Uncommon monk effects on Toolbar 1; slots 1-5.
Switch to Toolbar 2-5 when I want to spam a specific element
R,T,C,V dedicated to my most powerful elemental strikes.
F for Stunning Fist, G for Fists of Light/Touch of Death.

Also:
Q is off limits as that’s my target furthest button.
E is off limits as that toggles mouse view
Z is not only too difficult to reach in combat but is my PTT for vent
X is off limits as it is unwieldy as well and my XP page
Y is off limits as it is my DDO PTT
Toolbar 1 #6-0 ARE available but you should know that they should only be used for longer lasting effects like Dance of the Water Strider.

And in relation to Dark monks:
If you’re not using special attacks on all your strikes then you’re not effectively causing damage. On the Ninja Spy version of my monk I have to wait for the Touch of Death timer cooldown. In the meantime I use Air IV and Earth III on non stunned mobs and add in Fire/Water/Fists of Iron based on situation. If I had effective mapping options I could open up the earth finishers faster with the Corrosive Soul strike.

[Drfirewater79]

Here’s a screenshot of my hotbar layout. Tell me where I can put the elemental debuffs, and void strikes where I can access then with a button on my keyboard. (You get one freebie as Touch of Death gets to occupy the spot where Fists of Light currently lives. You also can’t use B because that's where Fists of Iron currently lives.)

http://my.ddo.com/quantumfx/wp-content/blogs.dir/7530/files/my-gallery/screenshot00271.jpg

That’s right. I can place all my special attacks in convenient locations on my keyboard. Uncommon monk effects on Toolbar 1; slots 1-5.
Switch to Toolbar 2-5 when I want to spam a specific element
R,T,C,V dedicated to my most powerful elemental strikes.
F for Stunning Fist, G for Fists of Light/Touch of Death.

Also:
Q is off limits as that’s my target furthest button.
E is off limits as that toggles mouse view
Z is not only too difficult to reach in combat but is my PTT for vent
X is off limits as it is unwieldy as well and my XP page
Y is off limits as it is my DDO PTT

what i dont understand is why you have tier I and II strikes on your hot bar at all

dont they run on the same timer ?

look at the video of my setup .. its 90% gear

you only need earth wind and fire for dance

healing fist or TOD depending on dark or light monk

stunning fist (i like it bound to the 1 key cause i use it more then anything)

and finisher ... i keep quivering palm up as a click it ability same with unbalancing strike as they are situational and not worth spamming

if you make it more complicated then it has to be your prolly gonna drive yourself nuts .. .make it simple and you will find it much easier to do.

[QuantumFX]

what i dont understand is why you have tier I and II strikes on your hot bar at all

dont they run on the same timer ?

Nope. Each strike is on a separate timer. Now stuff like Eagle Claw, Unbalancing Strike and Fists of Iron do share timers with the tier I strikes. However, If I'm using them then my toolbar focus is on toolbar 1


look at the video of my setup .. its 90% gear

you only need earth wind and fire for dance

Wrong. When I fight a named Devil I want Toolbar focus on Toolbar 2 (Lightning as I wear a Sup Potency I item) for 1, 2, 3, 4, T

Water is a very important strike too. At end game if it isn’t invulnerable to fire then it’s taking purple numbers.

And even if you were right then I only have room for the highest void strike available. You still need to get me my elemental debuffs. (In Group: Hey Wizard - Would you like to do 1,000 points of damage to the Frost giant in your Wall of Fire or 1,100?)


healing fist or TOD depending on dark or light monk

stunning fist (i like it bound to the 1 key cause i use it more then anything)

Which is F and G on my keyboard because it’s easier to reach than 1.


and finisher ... i keep quivering palm up as a click it ability same with unbalancing strike as they are situational and not worth spamming.

Which is 3 and 4 and V in my layout. Also, on a Ninja Spy UB is worthwhile as you get sneak attack dice to play with.


if you make it more complicated then it has to be your prolly gonna drive yourself nuts .. .make it simple and you will find it much easier to do.

Who said it was hard? You seemed to completely miss my point that a good keyboard layout is easier with a Harmonious Balance monk than an Inevitable Dominion monk. Therefore, it’s more click intensive. If anything Turbine needs to focus on trimming back the special attacks.

[Schmackdown]

I have both light and dark monks at the cap, and use a gamepad with two footpedals(~23 buttons before modifiers). I can map anything I need, from elemental strikes to debuffs to equipment swaps to US to AS to EB to targeting, without using the keyboard or mouse, and using only two visible hotbars(the second for keeping track of cooldown timers). I'd prefer the class got more complex, adding more combos and chains for greater end effects, rather than dumbed down and homogenized with the rest of the combat classes. It's the most technical class in the most technical MMO out there, imo, and watering it down to cater to those that don't want to figure out the combat timing or optimize a button layout would be a mistake.

[Xeraphim]

http://my.ddo.com/quantumfx/wp-content/blogs.dir/7530/files/my-gallery/screenshot00271.jpg


Here's what a Light Monk bar scheme looks like. Yes I used Risia Rituals on every Greater Bane I could find.
http://i49.tinypic.com/10ihuup.jpg

I just won a couple pieces of Raid Loot and haven't fixed my bars but you get the idea.

[QuantumFX]

Here's what a Light Monk bar scheme looks like. Yes I used Risia Rituals on every Greater Bane I could find.

I just won a couple pieces of Raid Loot and haven't fixed my bars but you get the idea.

Mine is also a Light monk setup. And I can even adapt it to Shintao monk very easily. The layout works for me because I have access to all my attacks when I need them. (Yes, you can get through all 4 elemental strikes before the timer resets on the first strike.) It’s Inevitable Dominion that suffers from clickie creep. (FYI: That SS is from Sarlona about 2 months ago. My monk on Lamania is I.E. because I wanted to test Dance of the Water Strider.)