Spears... Why don't we have them?

[DToNE]

Is it really that hard to make a stick with a knife at the end?

Spears in the standards of D&D:
Two handed, 1d8(20/x2), Piercing Weapon

The weapon that all wars fought with before the invention of gunpowder was the spear. An 8 foot long weapon in which to stab opponents to death. It's a weapon that landed more kills than the sword, used more often than the sword, longer than the sword, more versatile than the sword, cheaper than a sword, more expendable than a sword, easier to use than a sword, and was often wielded with one arm with a tower shield (Spartans and Romans). It was used since ancient times dating all the way back to the first hunting tactics before even bows and arrows. So not only was it a weapon for war and a hunting tool, but it was also used for fishing as well.

So, why doesn't the game have a spear? Is it too much to ask for one? It's not like we have a two handed melee piercing weapon in the game. Even the basics are in it: Quarterstaff animation (if you're lazy), Weapon mechanics, Effects, Feats, it's all there. So, really, why not?

[xBoN3SaWx]

/signed

Spear fighting is as old as warfare.

[Daggaz]

/signed

Spear fighting is as old as warfare.

screen shot or it isnt true =P

There are spears in the game tho.. the sahuagin on korthos wield them. Too bad they are the only ones..

[azrael4h]

/Signed. More weapons are always welcome, especially standards such as the spear.

[lazyninja81]

/signed

Have wondered this myself. Though I imagine the reason could be the amount of dev time for the animations if they used a different attack animation. However, I'd be happy with spears using the sword stabbing animation that already exists. Admittedly a bit of a layman though, perhaps it's not that easy.

[Devonian]

3.5, phb, spears do 1d8 not 1d10, which would be completely overpowering for a simple weapon.

That Said I do want spears.

[Timjc86]

My guess? Animations. Using spears with the current 1H or 2H animations would look pretty silly.

[Ganolyn]

I think a main issue would be that it is a melee and a ranged weapon. Do they just allow melee and not ranged? Do they allow you to throw it and then become unarmed? Can you go pick it up again? Are all spears "returning"? Do we make them thrown only and stack them like throwing weapons?

[DToNE]

There's a distinct difference between a spear, a lance, and a javelin. Although, the spear is definitely the hallmark of the three. Asian style spear fighting revolves around two hands while European spear fighting revolves around a single arm, whether it be on horseback or with a shield (Spartan, Roman, Greek, Persian style). One of the very few two handed spear-like weapons used by Europeans was actually the halberd. So, if we're using two handed spear fighting, it'd look closer to Asian spear fighting style. In which case the Quarterstaff animation works perfectly fine.

[Dawnsfire]

They could just introduce it as a pike. Physically they are pretty similar and no one insists on throwing a pike.

[Roziel_Longblade]

The Rahls Might is the answer to spear... sorta. It is treated as a staff. Lower lvl staves also take the appearance of tridents, spears and other long haft weapons.

[Uryamore]

The only argument I would almoist have against new weapon types is how it affects greensteel templates. That is before I remember that two quests (Sacrifice and Sleeping Dust) are using wilderness available ingredients as one of their possible ingredient rewards.

From a quick glance at the crafting tables, if only 1 new secondary ingredient was made to use the new raw ingredient, it could easily support 12 more weapon recipes (or a whole lot more than that if it replaces the Ore/Filament portion). That would be enough for spears, halberds, greensteel handwraps, and 9 other fun weapons of doom and mayhem.

[DToNE]

The Rahls Might is the answer to spear... sorta. It is treated as a staff. Lower lvl staves also take the appearance of tridents, spears and other long haft weapons.

Although true, it still doesn't have the desired piercing effect, which would allow for such things as wounding spear of puncturing. Which would make a whole lot of sense if you impale someone.

[Cylinwolf]

I think a main issue would be that it is a melee and a ranged weapon. Do they just allow melee and not ranged? Do they allow you to throw it and then become unarmed? Can you go pick it up again? Are all spears "returning"? Do we make them thrown only and stack them like throwing weapons?

Fairly pointless argument. There is no distinction in PnP between a hammer and a throwing hammer (or a knife and a throwing knife), they're just implemented as separate weapons in DDO so the engine can differentiate between when one is a melee weapon and one is a thrown weapon. It's entirely logical to assume that, if Turbine were to add spears and wanted a throwing counterpart to go with them, that they would also add "throwing spears" as a new weapon as well.

Turbine has said on many occasions that the reason they haven't added spears is that they want them to have their own animations, rather than just slapping them on the current THF animation. And animating is one of the most expensive parts of designing a game, and before now I wouldn't have expected them ever.

However, in U5 they changed the animation for players jumping and even gave halflings a new running animation, so I think their reasoning has well and beyond gone out the window and it's pretty obvious they could afford to add them into the game if they're going to instead spend that money on pointlessly aesthetic animation changes.

[dominp]

Spears... Why don't we have them?

Because we didn't say please???

[vindicater]

I am with you on this wa really should have a twohanded pericing wepon and spears more than fill the bill. BTW there are a number of greensteel wepon options that could be deleted and if you dident put it in an update no one would ever find out. Might even save us a bunch of I screwed up and want to trade my new unused greensteal handaxe threads.

[DToNE]

Well, it's true though, if they have enough time to tweak the jump animation and change the female halfling run animation, I don't see why they can't do the Spear animation.

[Daggaz]

Because we didn't say please???

More like, "I dont understand swords n stuff, which end do I hold on to again? This is too haaa-aard! Cant we have something easier, I just want to play this stupid game.."

Something like that should do the trick.

[BrinLondo]

This is a great thread and I was kind of bummed and surprised to not see spears as a weapon option when I first started to play. I'm hard pressed to think of any of my PnP PCs that didn't have a spear.

Sure there are some animation issues that would need to be resolved, but it is present already. Anyone who has done "Tear of Dhakaan" has sidestepped a shaman's spear. Previous posters have also touched on some ideas and observations also.

In PnP a key benefit of the spear was the ability to "set for charge," allowing the spear to do double damage. Admittedly, "charging" is few and far between in DDO, but it does occur.

My thoughts:

(1) I can see a spear in the game, that can be used for melee or with a "toggle click" turn into a short range weapon. I do believe it needs to be rather limited in it's range.

(2) I can also see spears for melee and javalins for short ranged weapons sold in stacks.

(3) I could see a "returning spear."

Now a spear isn't "needed," when one considers DDO, but it'd be a nice individual flair for characters and players.

[PopeJual]

Spears also are reach weapons and have some funky differences in the combat rules.

I'd certainly like spears, but I'm okay with missing out on them since there are other aspects of the game that I'd like to see first. *cough*druids*cough*

[arminius]

Spears also are reach weapons and have some funky differences in the combat rules.

I'd certainly like spears, but I'm okay with missing out on them since there are other aspects of the game that I'd like to see first. *cough*druids*cough*

One of the cough*druid's*cough main weapons is ... wait for it ... almost there ... yes! A spear.

Unless they changed that in later editions.

[knightgf]

So, really, why not?

It's Turbine. You really think the company is smart enough to create spears without messing it up greatly? I dunno...in my opinion, if there's one thing they will mess up with spears, they'll make the reach too short, in which reach is the spear's biggest strength, as you stated earlier.

But then again, technically, there are spears in the game. Only NPCS have them. And they seem to be a fairly effective weapon, in my opinion.

[Ganolyn]

[quote]Originally Posted by Ganolyn
I think a main issue would be that it is a melee and a ranged weapon. Do they just allow melee and not ranged? Do they allow you to throw it and then become unarmed? Can you go pick it up again? Are all spears "returning"? Do we make them thrown only and stack them like throwing weapons?



Fairly pointless argument. (If that was a pun it was a bad one! :p)

There is no distinction in PnP between a hammer and a throwing hammer (or a knife and a throwing knife), they're just implemented as separate weapons in DDO so the engine can differentiate between when one is a melee weapon and one is a thrown weapon. It's entirely logical to assume that, if Turbine were to add spears and wanted a throwing counterpart to go with them, that they would also add "throwing spears" as a new

[phillymiket]

The only thing I can think of is fear of exploitation of the range. (especially with pikes)
You could kinda make yourself unhittable.
A few melees could form a spear wall and keep the mobs totally at bay.
The way you stopped players exploiting in PnP was with small spaces that prevent polearms proper use but that's not really a factor in DDOs environment.
Still
/signed
Even if it's more cosmetic and didn't quite work like a traditional polearm.

[coolpenguin410]

Spears also are reach weapons and have some funky differences in the combat rules.

Longspears are reach weapons. Spears are not. Shortspears are one-handed weapons.

The later two could be introduced without funky reach-weapon mechanics.

[Ganolyn]

The only thing I can think of is fear of exploitation of the range. (especially with pikes)
You could kinda make yourself unhittable.
A few melees could form a spear wall and keep the mobs totally at bay.
The way you stopped players exploiting in PnP was with small spaces that prevent polearms proper use but that's not really a factor in DDOs environment.
Still
/signed
Even if it's more cosmetic and didn't quite work like a traditional polearm.


That is why I listed the one's I did as impractical. They are all very long and basically designed for what you described. All the others I listed are about spear size (5'-6') except for some poleaxes. Since those varied in size (some up to 15') they could pick and choose the size they wanted as their standard.

[phillymiket]

That is why I listed the one's I did as impractical. They are all very long and basically designed for what you described. All the others I listed are about spear size (5'-6') except for some poleaxes. Since those varied in size (some up to 15') they could pick and choose the size they wanted as their standard.

Ya. I was writing when you posted :)
I wouldn't have commented if I had read your post.
I can't remember if spears have a min space required to use but other polearms do.
In DDO there is no minimum space for anything, thank God. Think how annoying it would be to have your greatsword clanking off walls.

Edit - now I see the post above with the difference between longspears and spears. Yes thats right.
so /signed for spears
:) thanks for the correction

[Arcticwarrior]

rahls might is technically a spear... but a lvl 18 one, so agreed

[GhoulsTouch]

The answer is simple, you can get away with rapiers doing a slashing motion, you can't do that with spears :)
Swinging a spear like a Quarterstaff, or Greataxe would look pretty silly.

[DoctorWhofan]

signed. LotRO has them... And Halberds too!

[Rabbi_Hordo]

They could just introduce it as a pike. Physically they are pretty similar and no one insists on throwing a pike.


Hey, you can't throw my toons! Wait, wait, wait...I pike...verb, not noun, ok...hmmm..

/signed!

:D

[GhoulsTouch]

Actually spears as a thrown weapon would be awesome, could set it up a toggle switch to decide to use it as a thrown or melee weapon.

[incontinetia]

I thinks its because they lost popularity when they shaved their head.

[Rakian_Knight]

I see two primary benifets to this.

1) More melee weapons are always a good thing. Also with the spear, I would think that it would be followed if not introduced at the same time a bunch of simular weapons like the Halberd. It would also add to the peircing weapon selection.

2) Introduce a new throwing weapon that would go along nicely with the new throwing feat. It would also give the throwing weapons some of the much needed attention that they need.

Again just my thoughts so take them with a grain of salt.

~Rakian_Knight

/signed

[DToNE]

So far I'm surprised with all the positive responses toward this matter. I really hope a dev sees this thread and take spears into consideration.

[Antheal]

I think a main issue would be that it is a melee and a ranged weapon. Do they just allow melee and not ranged? Do they allow you to throw it and then become unarmed? Can you go pick it up again? Are all spears "returning"? Do we make them thrown only and stack them like throwing weapons?

You mean like Daggers, Axes and Hammers?

[Ganolyn]

You mean like Daggers, Axes and Hammers?


Thrown versions of those weapons are designed specifically with that in mind. They are usually smaller, lighter and better balanced for throwing than their melee counterparts. A spear is a cheap multipurpose weapon, hence their historical popularity. While the mechanics are similar, to do it right takes a good deal of work.

[jstroud]

Here's what the spear animation should look like (and the short sword animation also, IMO)

Notice in the clip that swinging the spear does NOT look stupid...in fact it was a common attack used to disarm, trip, or as a parry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjIGEiiPx3M

[Goobermans]

Would be nice to have a 2hand piercer in the game.

[Aesop]

Here's what the spear animation should look like (and the short sword animation also, IMO)

Notice in the clip that swinging the spear does NOT look stupid...in fact it was a common attack used to disarm, trip, or as a parry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjIGEiiPx3M



I'd say that's a better example of how Sword and Shield Fighting should be with integrated blocks and shield attacks


Aesop

[Shaarax]

My thought on this is that Spears, along with Halberds and Tridents (and Javelins as a thrown weapon) would be good additions to add into Update 6, to go with the new underwater combat, as piercing weapons should be better for use in that environment than slashing or bludgeoning weapons are. Adding them in then would add to the theme of that pack.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Because if they gave us spears some idiot would run around with them and poke some poor halfling's eye out. It's all fun until someone loses an eye!

[voodoogroves]

Would love to see them. Would change their reach physics on attack checks. Bigger problem would be the new animation sequence(s).

[DToNE]

8 Foot spears were indeed wielded by 1 arm though. This is actually good reference.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klOc9C-aPr4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-xtFXThEOc

[Otherworld]

I'd like spears. I already see myself stabbing monsters with em and make some dragoon-flavored chars. (spear-wielding and with max jump xD)

Though, of course, they'd have to make some animations...

[~Sandthefloor]

+300 rep! (Get it? 300?)

I can already imagine a party shouting "THIS IS STORMREACH!!!" over the mic as their Fighters and Barbarians run into the dungeon wielding their mighty spears. Plus, it brings Wounding/Puncturing to THF (which is good) and allows the creation of more video-game-based characters (say, a Dragoon from Final Fantasy 3 or Nephenee from Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance).

/signed

EDIT: It seems someone beat me to the Dragoon reference. Yes, max Jump of course.

[ssgcmwatson]

It's all fun until someone loses an eye!

Then it's a sport!

[Chaosprism]

Inspired quarter has spears display wise. They count as quarterstaffs though.


I hope they do add spears for real too. Been waiting for that since the original beta 3 years ago.

[DToNE]

Huh, weird food for thought. Historically, they tried to have the strongest warrior wield a 90ft spear and they deemed it impossible at the time. How do you even balance such a thing?

[Pehtis]

Having spears introduced into the game would be a wonderful addition. I would like to bring a different take to this by suggesting the Spear be designed as a DEFENSIVE weapon by introducing a special damage called IMPALE DAMAGE. This impale damage will only trigger when DEFENDING (re block) though and never triggered when attacking.

IMPALE damage could be anything from Double Damage (before crits), or maybe give it double crit multiplier that stacks with existing enchantments/feats/enhancements.

I was thinking the spear would have to be on its own (re not with 2nd off hand weapon, or shield) regardless if its 1H or 2H weapon, because you are bracing yourself for impact (re Impale Damage trigger).

Heck maybe make it even more unique for Sword & Board builds designed to defend (re prestige line) by allowing them to keep a Shield and still get IMPALE Damage bonuses. That is one sure way to increase their damage output (especially with Intimidate on) without lag issues. That would bring a whole new aspect to the game especially when you need to turtle up.

Perhaps keep it simple and keep the impale damage concept open to everyone willing to defend with a spear.

Would that unbalance the game in favor of defensive fighting when you know the first thing the enemy does is lunge at you? Dunno. A trade-off of some sort perhaps.

Defensive DPS (re non guards) now that would be different :) .

[Aesop]

Inspired quarter has spears display wise. They count as quarterstaffs though.


I hope they do add spears for real too. Been waiting for that since the original beta 3 years ago.

4 years ago... and change

I started on the Beta in December of 2005 I think... might have been November

and I've been playing since then... though infrequently at times.


People kept telling me that Spears are worthless because they are only 1d8 20/x3 and that Reach wouldn't do anything in the game

I never really cared about that though; I just wanted my SPEAR AND MAGIC HELMET

Aesop

[AyumiAmakusa]

If there were spears in the game, I'd want this at least +2 Silver Returning Spear. Let the throwing begin!

[phillymiket]

A little inspiration for the devs. Think of the flavor spears would add!
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7112/hkjhjhkj.jpg

[Seikojin]

Spears also are reach weapons and have some funky differences in the combat rules.



+1 yeah, spears would be awesome, but reach and melle throwns are mechanics not present in DDO. It is nice that a bunch of people would sacrafice the thrown and reach capabilities to have the look of a spear.

Jump animations and running animations are small fry compared to the investment of adding unique animations for weapons.

[Berekona]

That is why I listed the one's I did as impractical. They are all very long and basically designed for what you described. All the others I listed are about spear size (5'-6') except for some poleaxes. Since those varied in size (some up to 15') they could pick and choose the size they wanted as their standard.

Actually normal size spears ranged from 7'-10' anything past 10' started to become pike size, anything shorter then 7' was short spear, anything under 5' become javelin size.

Also to the poster who said Europeans never wielded the spear two handed, you are wrong. Just to name two cultures who fought both with one & two handed spears... Vikings & Celts.

[PopeJual]

Think of the flavor spears would add!

Oddly enough, I know the answer to this.

Rhubarb.

[Ganolyn]

Actually normal size spears ranged from 7'-10' anything past 10' started to become pike size, anything shorter then 7' was short spear, anything under 5' become javelin size.


I didn't say that spears were all that size, I said the weapons I listed were about spear size. Spear size and use is as varied as the cultures they come from.

[Midarc]

The introduction of a polearm catagory of weapons would fall right into my wishlist of additions.
Would love to see this implemented.

[Therakis]

something tells me that we don't have spears because they have reach and technically unless ur using a shortspear u cant attack an adjacent opponent unless u have a specific feat

[IgorUnchained]

/signed....and Ill take whips (and the like) as well.

[phillymiket]

Oddly enough, I know the answer to this.

Rhubarb.

Dude what is the deal with you folks from Whitehall?
It all comes back to Rhubarb. That's your answer for everything.
Why not rename the town Rhubarb, PA?
(just kidding I like our friends to the north - rhubarb and all. :))

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5746/mascot.jpg