Suggestion: Increase Tempest III to 10% double strike

[zealous]

I view the combat changes of U5 as rebalancing rather than nerfs, after all, relative efficacy of builds remain largely unchanged. There is one case where the changes actually result in a nerf though, namely for rangers.

The changes generally amount to a slight, <10%, decrease to 2wf but in the case of 18+ rangers the reduction is larger than for others, ~14%.

Ranger 6 is potent with or with out tempest; rams, i2wf, manyshot and 6 fe damage makes it viable tempest or not.

Ranger 12 would generally only be taken for cheap/easy access to imp.prec shot and will still provide that.

However, ranger 18 in general and tempestIII in particular is comparably weak.

Changing tempest III to grant 10% double strike instead of 5% would bring the PrC more in line with other PrCs and more notably bring the change in ranger melee efficacy in line with the changes for other builds.

[78mackson]

Sounds reasonable..

Ranger doesn´t look as appealing as they once did...

[Deamus]

/not signed 1000% rangers already have +20% in of hand more than any other class .

[hingu_Doy]

/signed

5% chance to double strike doesn't seem to justify the loss of an extra off-hand attack, the reason why most people go tempest III. Probably better to just respec to a tempest II/Kensai I ...

[grodon9999]

/signed

Then again as a Tempest III fanboy I'm kinda biased.

[R0cksteady]

All of your doublestrikes will have an offhand attack with it, where as fighters only get an 80% chance on an offhand attack on it. as well as an 80% chance on an offhand attack.

This is pretty well balanced the way it is between fighters/rangers, right where it was before. Fighters hit a bit harder and can haste in bursts, and rangers will be doing more damage in longer fights.

[Aerendil]

/not signed 1000% rangers already have +20% in of hand more than any other class .

Agreed.
Right now Tempest III's = 100% / 100% with 5% double attack.
Monks in Wind IV, Paladins with Zeal, and Fighters with capstone are at 100% / 80%, 10% double attack.

Until the numbers come in to compare the dps between 100/100, 5% vs. 100/80, 10% I'm going to sit on the fence.
If it turns out Tempest III needs more love, then so be it. But until then, I'm going to assume the damage output is pretty even here.

[grodon9999]

But until then, I'm going to assume the damage output is pretty even here.

You'd be assuming wrong, but the difference between 5% and 10% is 5 attacks over the course of a minute. it's not game breaking either way.

[Eladiun]

/signed

[Aerendil]

You'd be assuming wrong, but the difference between 5% and 10% is 5 attacks over the course of a minute. it's not game breaking either way.

Do you have the stats to prove it, or is this just grumpy I'm_getting_nerfed_Grodon talking? :)

[Yaga_Nub]

/not signed.

Tempest is a front loaded PrE. Other PrEs don't shine until II or III. That's just the way it is. Tempest III is perfect the way it is.

[Borror0]

/not signed.

Tempest is a front loaded PrE. Other PrEs don't shine until II or III. That's just the way it is. Tempest III is perfect the way it is.
He's changing Tempest back to the way it was. If you had no issues with it then, you should not have any issues with it after his suggestion.

If you're that scared that double strike will make Tempest III too good, comprise for a 7.5% Double Strike bonus.

[Medina]

Seriously, so Temp Rangers are already getting a free ride through this nerf, but you also want to add the fighter capstone to your prestige class just because? Everyone has to try to fit another feat into their builds at high levels, i'm sure you can live with only a 5% double strike.

[R0cksteady]

Seriously, so Temp Rangers are already getting a free ride through this nerf, but you also want to add the fighter capstone to your prestige class just because? Everyone has to try to fit another feat into their builds at high levels, i'm sure you can live with only a 5% double strike.

What extra feat? STWF isn't going live.

[grodon9999]

Do you have the stats to prove it, or is this just grumpy I'm_getting_nerfed_Grodon talking? :)

it's simple math you ape, 105 attacks per minute times 105% = about 110 attacks/minute.

105 attacks/minute times 110% times 110% = about 115 attacks/minute.

it's a trivial % either way. Works out to 0.0833333 attacks per second.

[Medina]

What extra feat? STWF isn't going live.

So all others classes are going to max out with an 80% off hand hit rate and he/she wants a 100% off hand hit rate and a 10% double strike? How exactly do you think this is balanced?

The argument that it's trivial is kinda double edged seeing as if it really was that trivial you wouldn't be bringing it up in the first place.

[grodon9999]

Seriously, so Temp Rangers are already getting a free ride through this nerf, but you also want to add the fighter capstone to your prestige class just because? Everyone has to try to fit another feat into their builds at high levels, i'm sure you can live with only a 5% double strike.

Do you have a clue at all? We LOST the most attacks per minute except for MAYBE monks. Monks and rangers need the swing-speed as we don't hit as hard.

That said if the HPs on lamaland make it to production we'll all be fine.

[Cyr]

Seriously, so Temp Rangers are already getting a free ride through this nerf, but you also want to add the fighter capstone to your prestige class just because? Everyone has to try to fit another feat into their builds at high levels, i'm sure you can live with only a 5% double strike.

wow...

Tempest rangers most certainly did not get anywhere near a free ride through the nerf.

[Beethoven]

Seriously, so Temp Rangers are already getting a free ride through this nerf

Currently (on live):
* Tempest: +1 offhand hook, +10% melee alacrity (twf only)
* Kensai: +10% melee alacrity (all fighting styles), + damage bonus (signature weapon) + increased threat range (signature weapon) + power surge

In other words, the advantage (pre Update 5) of the Tempest Pre is 1 more offhand attacks with their alacrity limited to two-weapon fighting only.
The advantage of Kensai is melee alacrity applied to all fighting styles, higher damage per swing (due to damage bonus and threat range) and power surge.

Lamannia:
* Tempest: on average/statistically +1 offhand hook, +5 double strike chance (twf only).
* Kensai: +10% double strike (all fighting styles), + damage bonus (signature weapon) + increased threat range (signature weapon) + power surge

It's not rocket science: the very focus of the Kensai Pre (damage bonus to signature weapon) has not been touched, whereas the very focus of Tempest (two-weapon speed) is the thing that actually changed; it's also an overall change affecting two weapon fighting in general (affecting everyone the same). However, above and beyond Tempest Alacrity has been halved (compared to all other alacrity).

Of course, on the other side of the argument stands that Kensai actually need to go Fighter 20 (no splashing rogue for UMD) to actually get the doublestrike benefit, whereas Tempest III still allows to splash two other classes.

[Aerendil]

it's simple math you ape, 105 attacks per minute times 105% = about 110 attacks/minute.

105 attacks/minute times 110% times 110% = about 115 attacks/minute.

it's a trivial % either way. Works out to 0.0833333 attacks per second.

Ape? Not cool, dude. We've all tolerated your 195017501397513075 posts screaming DOOOM and whining about how the sky is falling.

If you can't take a little joke without getting all ****y, then don't bother posting.
Besides, you've mentioned TWICE now in this thread that the difference is trivial, so why are you so for getting more double-attack?

*edit* - AND, I get neg repped for asking you to post the stats to prove it?
Wow, seriously, lol. That's sad.

[Medina]

100 main attacks

-Tempest gets 100 off hand attacks 10 double strikes for a total of 210 attacks
-Kensai gets 80 off hand attacks and 20 double strikes for a total of 200 attacks

This is assuming that double strikes can proc off off hand hits. This does not take into account double strikes proccing off double strikes.

The tempest bonus after this is more consistent then the fighter bonus in that there is no die roll to determine if you get that 100% off hand strike.

Also you are not adding the favored enemy bonus to your comparison.

[R0cksteady]

100 main attacks

-Tempest gets 100 off hand attacks 10 double strikes for a total of 210 attacks
-Kensai gets 80 off hand attacks and 20 double strikes for a total of 200 attacks

This is assuming that double strikes can proc off off hand hits. This does not take into account double strikes proccing off double strikes.

The tempest bonus after this is more consistent then the fighter bonus in that there is no die roll to determine if you get that 100% off hand strike.

Also you are not adding the favored enemy bonus to your comparison.

Or fighter haste, for that matter.

[Visty]

This is assuming that double strikes can proc off off hand hits. This does not take into account double strikes proccing off double strikes.

DS does proc offhand attacks, says so even in the release notes

also eladrin said doublestrike dont trigger other doublestrikes as that could lead to the one in million chance for infinite attacks with one swing

[Yaga_Nub]

Do you have a clue at all? We LOST the most attacks per minute except for MAYBE monks. Monks and rangers need the swing-speed as we don't hit as hard.

That said if the HPs on lamaland make it to production we'll all be fine.

Holy ****, if you don't hit as hard as other melee then learn how to build a Tempest.

[grodon9999]

Ape? Not cool, dude. We've all tolerated your 195017501397513075 posts screaming DOOOM and whining about how the sky is falling.

If you can't take a little joke without getting all ****y, then don't bother posting.
Besides, you've mentioned TWICE now in this thread that the difference is trivial, so why are you so for getting more double-attack?

*edit* - AND, I get neg repped for asking you to post the stats to prove it?
Wow, seriously, lol. That's sad.

I didn't neg rep you for what it's worth, is "ape" really that bad? judging from your reaction I have to take that back as I wouldn't want to insult the simians of the world as some of them can use a calculator.

[grodon9999]

Holy ****, if you don't hit as hard as other melee then learn to build a Tempest.

That's nonsense, we get FE damage as a boost which is really nice but doesn't add up to the seeker, STR, weapon Spec, focus, etc . . . bonuses that fighters get. We don't get ENH to STR, we simply will not be as strong as a fighter. In the current state of the game DPS is still close BECAUSE of the swing-speed.

With the current numbers the status quo looks to be able to the same.

[zealous]

It has previously been described but it might be good to show my reasoning.

Live: 10% attack speed for tempest I, 5/4 off hand for tempest III
Proposed: 10% double strike for tempest III, a total of 100/80=5/4 off hand attacks spread out over tempest I and II.

Simply put, as I proposed the relative strength of a tempest III ranger will remain unchanged.

[Boromirs]

Tempest got a boost actually or remain the same. People are not counting in the fact that with each double strike they will AUTOMATICALLY recieve a free offhand attack. Tempest did not lose anything.Pure Fighters on the other hand...