Monk Feedback & Changes

[Delacroix21]

_______UPDATED____


Well after copying over my 2 20s monks and playing around with both of them, I have some overall general feedback.


Shinatao=
Overall this PrE is extremely weak and boring to play. It really only has 1 neat feature which is Smite Evil. Due to a 30 second cooldown however it becomes a preety lame attack. Reducing the cooldown to 15seconds would probably be enough to keep this PrE desireable.


Ninja Spy=
The invis/incorporality is fun and usefull. Bearded devils in Shavarath for some reason see through the Invis (tested MANY times). The sneak attack damage is nice. The shortswords however stink to high heaven! This is due mostly to the fact that it prevents the use of Touch of Death (which is the ONLY reason to go dark, dark moves stink). Allow shortswords to use Touch of Death and we "may" see some shortsword monks, otherwise just forget it. Also the bonus ki generation only working while sneaking really limits its usefullness.


Double attack/Offhand Change
Overall I do observe a nerf to my dps and feel that killing mobs is slightly longer. The only benefit of this is sometimes (not all) you can get 2 hits with Touch of Death. This will likely be nerfed (though it shouldnt be as even with it monk dps is still the lowest) which would really stink.


General Enhancements
Monks are EXTREMELY enhancement point starved in this Update, as they really dont have the points to spare on the PrEs without sacrificing allot of cool stuff. Void strike 4 costs 30/80 enhancement points to get, can you believe that?
Monks need some Enhancement point love, some Suggestions=
1. Lower the elemental stances to 1pt for adept, 2 for master, 3 for grandmaster.
2. Lower the Light/Dark junk moves to 1pt (like arcane archer), as people only really want the end move Touch of Death/Rise of Phoneix anyway


Weighted Change
This does actually deserve its own section as monks (due to no GS) have become weighted junkies, with holy of weighted 5% being the standard handwrap for all monks. This change really does stink, it procs noticeably less and I have even seen some resists in Shavarath (cant imagine how bad Epic will be, maybe 50% or less). Unfortuneately I cant spare the feat on my main hafling Dex Dmark monk for stunning fist, unless I make him Shintao and drop dodge from Ninja Spy. But then I will lose my beloved Touch of Death for More unneeded healing as I allready have Dmarks. Honestly with this change +5 holy of weighted 1% handwraps become the standard handwraps. To bad its to late to add icy burst to them.


Overall
Overall this Update is not a great one for monks. No GS handwraps mean you will still be dpsing with a rare lowbie handwrap in raids. The PrEs havent really "fixed" monks too-low dps at all as the dps of monks itself was nerfed. Add to that trying to fit in the Enhancement points for these PrEs means additional loss. Aside from playing around with the free Invis from Ninja Spy, monks in Update 5 will be less fun to play then before.



-------BUGS------
Fire Stance= 100% double attack stance, will ALWAYS get 2 Touch of Death hits, 80% chance of 3. Wind Stance Always gets 1, 80% chance of 2 (which should NOT be changed).

[Jamma]

-------BUGS------
Ninja Spy= No ki Generation increase, either through attacking or passive like capstone

Fire Stance= 100% double attack stance, will ALWAYS get 2 Touch of Death hits, 80% chance of 3. Wind Stance Always gets 1, 80% chance of 2 (which should NOT be changed).

I haven't had a chance to try it yet, but I've heard you only get the ki generation while sneaking, 1 tic/6 seconds.

[v8gremlin]

Ok so I have 2 monks - one str based and one dex based. Currently both use windstance. My question is this, does the dwarf or equivalent wf tactics (adds 1 to combat feat dc's per tier - up to +3) work with stunning fist (it does with blow obviously, but has anyone tried with stunning fist). Weighted wraps with a 3%proc and dc33 just arent going to cut it high end.

With the proposed updates i have a few things to consider here so this is an important question.

My str based monk is 32str atm (using windstance III), wf, 12mnk(dark)/8ftr - kensai I. With the changes to windstance i think i will be better off going fire stance for this one - so when i finish my gear i'd be looking at about 36str, i have stunning blow, with ftr and wf enhancements i could add around +6 to stunning blow, +13 from str (although when madstoned/raged etc maybe add another +3 to +5ish i think), plus gloves of titans grip +3, plus weighted +10, base 10 dc, so should be able to get to around 39dc unbuffed, 45dc+ with rage etc, this is acceptable (although the aps for wf tactics may cost me a few of my 713 unbuffed hp, or some healing amp).

My dex monk on the other hand........halfling lvl20mnk - 24str 36dex, 24wis....dark monk. Now with those stats stunning blow will never work...stunning fist will be ordinary too. So if i tr to dwarf with a higher wisdom....save on cunning and guile ap's and spend em on tactics instead. Again, windstance nerf so water stance.... maybe get to around 32ish wis, but dex would prob suffer. That makes something like 10+10(mnk lvl/2) +10(wraps) + 11wis +3dw ap's - 44dc.... could work but juggling the rest of the stats will be fun....

Any other thoughts on improving dc's in either scenario would be welcome.

[v8gremlin]

Or....high end (epic) ac is relatively useless, so scrap dex based all together and make my pure monk str based, would suffer from a bit of to hit (due to not being able to get str as high as dex on halfling in windstance). Maybe monks are just dead now.....

As much as many barbarians hate to admit it, a well built and geared windstance dark monk could out dps them (thats why monks effectively got 4 nerfs - twf nerf, windstance nerf, weighted nerf, and the unmentioned sum of all three - ki generation nerf), but that same monk couldn't generally main tank in ToD due to not being able to achieve enough hp. With the changes, you can all go back to feeling superior now barbarians.....most str based monks are just going to be lower str and hp barbs now with evasion.....yes rejoice for the epic sos barbarians.

Long story short, I think the devs are heading towards making all melees THF barbs or ftrs.

[ClashM]

Very good post, the devs need to read this one. I was worried we would become more enhancement starved with the PrEs and always thought the junk attacks required for ToD should be lowered in cost. Looks like pretty much every one of the things I was worried might hit one of my favorite classes in update 5 did, and then some.

[Hydro]

Or....high end (epic) ac is relatively useless, so scrap dex based all together and make my pure monk str based, would suffer from a bit of to hit (due to not being able to get str as high as dex on halfling in windstance). Maybe monks are just dead now.....

As much as many barbarians hate to admit it, a well built and geared windstance dark monk could out dps them (thats why monks effectively got 4 nerfs - twf nerf, windstance nerf, weighted nerf, and the unmentioned sum of all three - ki generation nerf), but that same monk couldn't generally main tank in ToD due to not being able to achieve enough hp. With the changes, you can all go back to feeling superior now barbarians.....most str based monks are just going to be lower str and hp barbs now with evasion.....yes rejoice for the epic sos barbarians.

Long story short, I think the devs are heading towards making all melees THF barbs or ftrs.

I keep explaining this but a geared max Str monk will have a higher to hit then a dex monk in wind stance. when you factor in Rage spell, Madstone and Tod pots the str monk pulls ahead.

Yes I know you need gear and favor but those are the things that motivate some people (including myself) to play MMO's.

[v8gremlin]

Im not in disagreement, raged etc a str based monk can achieve the same to hit or more situational (and by situation i mean madstone is not always a viable option - curses), but pre update5 windstance was what made the monks viable.

A pure str monk loses out in a lot of areas though, making them effectively gimp next to a barbarian.... lets see some reasons:
Str - still going to be way below barb raged
Con - still going to be way below barb raged
Dex - a str based monk is going to have to sacrifice some of this to get an effective str - hence less ac and reflex saves (negating the benefits of evasion dramatically)
Wis - as per dex, will have to be sacrificed somewhat, hence ki, monk abilities etc will suffer

so thats the cons....

pro's
ki attacks.....abundant step.....some degree of healing amp and self healing

so in a game where high end dps is key (quicker they die the better it is for healers etc) the pure monk has been majorly nerfed - with the main benefit of weighted wraps becoming ineffective.

It took a long time for people to realise that monks are good dps, and some still dont get it, with these changes it will be very hard to get monks into groups imo.

[Hydro]

I hear you, I think with the double touch of death strikes monk DPS should be almost the same as live, but yeah these changes really make me rethink my build slightly.

I dont know what I am doing with half my characters after this patch...

[Brother_Solar]

Shinatao=
Overall this PrE is extremely weak and boring to play. It really only has 1 neat feature which is Smite Evil. Due to a 30 second cooldown however it becomes a preety lame attack. Reducing the cooldown to 15seconds would probably be enough to keep this PrE desireable.Agreed!



General Enhancements
Monks are EXTREMELY enhancement point starved in this Update, as they really dont have the points to spare on the PrEs without sacrificing allot of cool stuff. Void strike 4 costs 30/80 enhancement points to get, can you believe that?
Monks need some Enhancement point love, some Suggestions=
1. Lower the elemental stances to 1pt for adept, 2 for master, 3 for grandmaster.
2. Lower the Light/Dark junk moves to 1pt (like arcane archer), as people only really want the end move Touch of Death/Rise of Phoneix anyway
Agreed and Seconded!




-------BUGS------
Ninja Spy= No ki Generation increase, either through attacking or passive like capstone

Fire Stance= 100% double attack stance, will ALWAYS get 2 Touch of Death hits, 80% chance of 3. Wind Stance Always gets 1, 80% chance of 2 (which should NOT be changed).As well as...

Shintao Monk: Protection from Evil= Currently not counting as a Light move.

Shintao Monk: Smite Evil= Appears to be removing the chance for an off-hand strike.

[Elfvyra]

Any other thoughts on improving dc's in either scenario would be welcome.

Stat Damagers might be the answer you seek.... ;)

[v8gremlin]

lol, ok so now i need to carry some wounding kama's and get quickdraw so i can switch quickly back to weighted, yippeeee

[Timjc86]

The ninja spy ki generation does indeed work. You have to be sneaking for the ninja spy regeneration. But if you're sneaking, it works just fine (and stacks with the capstone.)

One thing that does not work though is Dance of the Water Strider. You cast it, hop onto a liquid, and start swimming. It doesn't do anything except eat ki and display a pretty buff icon.

Edit: Added DotWS details.

[manfredshw]

DotWS is workable.
check your own move. you got to be something wrong.

[Timjc86]

DotWS is workable.
check your own move. you got to be something wrong.

I

cast it, hop onto a liquid, and start swimming. It doesn't do anything except eat ki and display a pretty buff icon.

Feel free to help me figure out what I'm doing incorrectly.

[manfredshw]

what about keep running while you jump onto the water?

you must keep running.

[Elfvyra]

lol, ok so now i need to carry some wounding kama's and get quickdraw so i can switch quickly back to weighted, yippeeee

Why would you? Do you change from weighted to something else when it's stunned? Remember, if you reduce a mob's stat to 0 it BECOMES stunned for a short period, which is what you're trying to do with those weighted handwraps, wasn't it? ;)

[Xeraphim]

Well after copying over my 2 20s monks and playing around with both of them, I have some overall general feedback.


Shinatao=
Overall this PrE is extremely weak and boring to play. It really only has 1 neat feature which is Smite Evil. Due to a 30 second cooldown however it becomes a preety lame attack. Reducing the cooldown to 15seconds would probably be enough to keep this PrE desireable.

I read up on Shintao and was ultimately depressed about it. I considered grabbing it with my Light monk and saw Shintao II was even lamer than Shintao I, so decided against even trying. Ninja Spy got some love though, which I do like, but I don't play Dark.


Ninja Spy=
The invis/incorporality is fun and usefull. Bearded devils in Shavarath for some reason see through the Invis (tested MANY times). The sneak attack damage is nice. The shortswords however stink to high heaven! This is due mostly to the fact that it prevents the use of Touch of Death (which is the ONLY reason to go dark, dark moves stink). Allow shortswords to use Touch of Death and we "may" see some shortsword monks, otherwise just forget it. Also the bonus ki generation does NOT work, or at least stack with the capstone.

Ninja Spy seems like it may be a lot of fun with a Sneak Attack spec'd Monk, like a Halfling. Shortswords are not a Monk-able weapon as they deal 1/4 the damage of fists anyway.


Double attack/Offhand Change
Overall I do observe a nerf to my dps and feel that killing mobs is slightly longer. The only benefit of this is sometimes (not all) you can get 2 hits with Touch of Death. This will likely be nerfed (though it shouldnt be as even with it monk dps is still the lowest) which would really stink.

2 hits with Touch of Death would be like a double Exalted Smite effect on a Paladin, which is why many forum users practically commanded me to make a TWF Paladin instead of a THF Paladin. That needs fixed too, no Smites on an offhand attack, only on the next recurring Main hand. As for taking longer to kill things... a global HP nerf is recommended again(levels 15-20, a bit heavy on the 19-20 side as things tend to have about 15% more HP than they should). As for the attack speed nerf, I propose an animation speed increase with no real effect on attack speed(though it does need synchronization to some extent, like moving the second strike for a Monk to the backhand move they do between the first and third(second actual damage hit currently)).


General Enhancements
Monks are EXTREMELY enhancement point starved in this Update, as they really dont have the points to spare on the PrEs without sacrificing allot of cool stuff. Void strike 4 costs 30/80 enhancement points to get, can you believe that?
Monks need some Enhancement point love, some Suggestions=
1. Lower the elemental stances to 1pt for adept, 2 for master, 3 for grandmaster.
2. Lower the Light/Dark junk moves to 1pt (like arcane archer), as people only really want the end move Touch of Death/Rise of Phoneix anyway

Monks are already tremendously AP starved as it is, lacking about 16 at least, and the PrEs and Void strikes seem designed to compound the difficulty of building an efficient Monk. Please lower the AP costs. He's pretty on-target with what I would lower as well. I would like to see the Monk Heal Amplification and Human Heal Amplification lines reduced to 1, 3, 5 or 2, 3, 4 or some such as well.


Weighted Change
This does actually deserve its own section as monks (due to no GS) have become weighted junkies, with holy of weighted 5% being the standard handwrap for all monks. This change really does stink, it procs noticeably less and I have even seen some resists in Shavarath (cant imagine how bad Epic will be, maybe 50% or less). Unfortuneately I cant spare the feat on my main hafling Dex Dmark monk for stunning fist, unless I make him Shintao and drop dodge from Ninja Spy. But then I will lose my beloved Touch of Death for More unneeded healing as I allready have Dmarks. Honestly with this change +5 holy of weighted 1% handwraps become the standard handwraps. To bad its to late to add icy burst to them.

Stunning Fist DCs are still far too low for Elite and Epic quests on a STR based DPS spec'd Monk, as their WIS is generally stuck at 20-22(with a +6 item). The other end of the spectrum is the Halfling Ninja Spy AC build madman with a WIS of 34 or something crazy.


Overall
Overall this Update is not a great one for monks. No GS handwraps mean you will still be dpsing with a rare lowbie handwrap in raids. The PrEs havent really "fixed" monks too-low dps at all as the dps of monks itself was nerfed. Add to that trying to fit in the Enhancement points for these PrEs means additional loss. Aside from playing around with the free Invis from Ninja Spy, monks in Update 5 will be less fun to play then before.

Quite. It's already hard enough to get into raids for the "Greensteel of Monks"... now it will be nearly impossible without being the token buff spammer. Ninja Spy builds may have a slight chance though... right behind the DEX Tempest.


-------BUGS------
Ninja Spy= No ki Generation increase, either through attacking or passive like capstone - Debated/Refuted

Fire Stance= 100% double attack stance, will ALWAYS get 2 Touch of Death hits, 80% chance of 3. Wind Stance Always gets 1, 80% chance of 2 (which should NOT be changed). - This needs fixed. Fire stance should not be a guaranteed double strike, especially with such a powerful effect.


The second bug noted needs immediate attention, or Light Monks are out of the game.

[Persnoody]

I've tested the water striding in a few different places, worked fine in the harbor (found out u can swim, hop out of water and cast..before hitting water and sprint off) and the lil pond in house j, also tried it under the airship when going to reavers refuge, turns out it DOESN'T work in that water. Since I found that problem I guess I will go to every place I can think of that has water.

I too agree on the lowered costs of ap's, this is just getting sad. So I guess monks will get even more discrimination, I wouldn't really give a ****, but half the time I'm pugging.

[Xeraphim]

but half the time I'm pugging.

I end up PuGing about 98% of the time. Most guildies are either on different timetables or are dealing with life or TRs.

Monks need to be PuGable, HuGable and LuVable.

[Calebro]

Ninja Spy=
The invis/incorporality is fun and usefull.

This makes me extremely happy. This is the only thing that interested me with u5/monks, and I've been keeping an eye on these threads for some notice of it.

So my 7/13 monkey rogue will start using short swords instead of handwraps or a Rapier/SS combo. Not too big of a loss considering the regular Ki strikes work just fine with weapons (assuming this doesn't change). Lose 1 crit multiplier and gain Ki strikes, Invis, Incorp and passive regen while sneaking.
That's a fair trade IMO. Just have to swap to dark when it goes live.

[Xeraphim]

I really want Monk to avoid being "That Splash class nobody ever goes pure in".

Seriously, Monk/Rogue should not be the epitome of the Monk class.

[Calebro]

I really want Monk to avoid being "That Splash class nobody ever goes pure in".

Seriously, Monk/Rogue should not be the epitome of the Monk class.

I wasn't implying that it should become that. But as he already exists, this was a perfect addition for him, and I'm happy to see that it works as intended.

[Persnoody]

I really want Monk to avoid being "That Splash class nobody ever goes pure in".

I feel the same way, what makes me even sadder is realizing that the class I have the most fun on is the gimp of the game.

BTW I have a small list so far of where water striding doesn't work, isn't it supposed to work on all liquids? even the bad ones..

[v8gremlin]

Why would you? Do you change from weighted to something else when it's stunned? Remember, if you reduce a mob's stat to 0 it BECOMES stunned for a short period, which is what you're trying to do with those weighted handwraps, wasn't it? ;)

Ok i think your missing the point with my slightly sarcastic response. I agree, wounding will work, or other stat damages, but your taking damage the whole time, and with mob con in epic, you'd die before they are stunned. Hence stunning them early so they aint hitting back, hence the DC question.

Now if i stun em using wounding kamas (1d6/x2) i still have to beat them to death after stun, without touch of death etc, even at 0 con this can take a while on epic content.

Compared to fists, (2d12x2) + ki based attacks. Unarmed is a lot faster. Kama's really aren't a dps option, same with all the WoP rapiers/s.swords etc, dps weapons have taken oven since con damage was nerfed.

And unless they changed it, when WoP was first nerfed we did some testing, turned out the crits on a con dmg stun are not full crits (still auto crit, but not the full amount of damage that a true crit applies). As I said, this may have changed, I haven't tested this recently.

So.....low to mid 40's (using water stance and nerfing other stats to pump up base wisdom) would be the most likely achievable dc for stunning fist on a monk now, str with rage effects etc a bit higher on stunning blow.

And i guess trip should be a consideration too maybe.....but improved trip on a monk (needs CE too) begins to get taxing on feats

[Timjc86]

what about keep running while you jump onto the water?

you must keep running.

Did that and no luck.


I've tested the water striding in a few different places, worked fine in the harbor (found out u can swim, hop out of water and cast..before hitting water and sprint off) and the lil pond in house j, also tried it under the airship when going to reavers refuge, turns out it DOESN'T work in that water.

Hrm, location specific issue then?

I was trying in the Vale and it did not work.

[Timjc86]

Dance of the Water Strider does seem to be bugged in certain locations. It works just fine in the harbor but not a bit in the big pool of water in the Vale around Meridia.

[Persnoody]

Dance of the Water Strider does seem to be bugged in certain locations. It works just fine in the harbor but not a bit in the big pool of water in the Vale around Meridia.

Yeah every other location (except house J) it was bugged, I even went to try the quest "The Ship Wrecked Spy", was the closest one I could think of, the water right at the beginning was bugged as well. I think I will try the "Storming The Beaches" quest from last update, they might have just not gotten around to making it work "everywhere".

[Gratan]

[QUOTE=v8gremlin;3008785]My question is this, does the dwarf or equivalent wf tactics (adds 1 to combat feat dc's per tier - up to +3) work with stunning fist (it does with blow obviously, but has anyone tried with stunning fist). Weighted wraps with a 3%proc and dc33 just arent going to cut it high end.

Yes the dwarf and wf tactic enhancements do work on stunning fist. I have been using the dwarf ones on my monk for quite a while now.

[v8gremlin]

Yes the dwarf and wf tactic enhancements do work on stunning fist. I have been using the dwarf ones on my monk for quite a while now.

Good to know, thx for the answer. +1 rep

[Delacroix21]

Updated

[Cyr]

Stat Damagers might be the answer you seek.... ;)

Might work in non-epic to a small degree. In epic it would be useless.

[Persnoody]

Ran through a couple of the new quests in house P, water striding worked fine, so I'm guessing it's just the newer content that has had the work.

[Delacroix21]

Provided a Bump as the Enhancement Point issue needs to be addressed. Monks are very point starved, and the new PrEs and Void Strike changes push this even further.


Eladrin can this be looked at somewhat? Some suggestions have been made such as reducing the 2,3,4 tiers of stances to 1,2,3pts respectively. As well as reducing the light or dark "minor moves" to 1pt each instead of 2 (like the Arcane Archer).

[manfredshw]

bump,

And ap spent requirements need to re-think.
Lower the cost is not enough, without the spent pre, you can't choose useful enhancements, but end up choose so many trash enhancements too.