Epic-style: Do it Like the Dragon

[Samadhi]

Was BSing with a guildie of mine that also generally does not like Epics. We both agreed that VoN6 was a definite exception to this. So the question was: why?

INSTANT LOOT

The reason, is because there is a possibility that I can pull something of value, even if I'm not an "epic farmer." I can pull that red dragon helm, which is pretty cool. I can pull a red scale, which (at least on GLand) is currently still going for several good larges from shroud. There is always a possibility of pulling *something* that will benefit my character.

Now compare that to a typical epic quest. I can pull a seal, but it's bound, and useless without three other pieces of loot. I can pull a scroll, but the market is flooded with them. It is very much a grind-or-nothing mechanism.

VoN6 on the other hand has instant gratification. Sure, the ODDS of instant gratification are like any other raid chest, and not that great. But they exist.

Make more epics contain more instant and/or valuable/tradable loot. There is psychology to back up the value if you don't believe me (variable ratio response in here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_reinforcement#Schedules_of_reinforcement) .


This is another part of the multi-part series:
"Why epics are not working as endgame; and how to improve the model (epic reuse of old content) while we keep praying for REAL new endgame content (more Towers of Despair)."

[REALb0r3d]

The forum title got me excited at the prospect.

[sirgog]

Was BSing with a guildie of mine that also generally does not like Epics. We both agreed that VoN6 was a definite exception to this. So the question was: why?

INSTANT LOOT

The reason, is because there is a possibility that I can pull something of value, even if I'm not an "epic farmer." I can pull that red dragon helm, which is pretty cool. I can pull a red scale, which (at least on GLand) is currently still going for several good larges from shroud. There is always a possibility of pulling *something* that will benefit my character.

Now compare that to a typical epic quest. I can pull a seal, but it's bound, and useless without three other pieces of loot. I can pull a scroll, but the market is flooded with them. It is very much a grind-or-nothing mechanism.

VoN6 on the other hand has instant gratification. Sure, the ODDS of instant gratification are like any other raid chest, and not that great. But they exist.

Make more epics contain more instant and/or valuable/tradable loot. There is psychology to back up the value if you don't believe me (variable ratio response in here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_reinforcement#Schedules_of_reinforcement) .


This is another part of the multi-part series:
"Why epics are not working as endgame; and how to improve the model (epic reuse of old content) while we keep praying for REAL new endgame content (more Towers of Despair)."


As someone that prefers Epics to all of the current other endgame content, I still agree wholeheartedly with your proposal.

VON6 has it right - a ~15% chance of a Red Scale that's worth serious plat, a ~1% chance of the Red Dragon Helm (solid raid loot for some builds) and a ~0.5% chance of a +4 tome, plus a tiny chance at the one piece of old-school loot (the FoM boots) that are still useful. Then, on top of that roughly 20% chance to get something immediately useful, you then have the upgrade pieces (shards, base items and rarely seals) as well.

DQ2 is pretty good too now - dropping +3 and +4 tomes (some +3 are even BtA), Bloodstone, Torc, Firestorm Greaves and more, but it could do with a really good craftable item like the Red Scale Armor.

All Epics should, IMO, have a chance of dropping something immediately useful. Perhaps Chains of Flame could drop Superior Focii of Fire (Shroud ingredient), Wiz-King Superior Focii of Negative Energy, DQ1 a quite good unbound Holy Cold Iron weapon (perhaps +5 keen holy burst) and so on. Drop rates would have to be carefully evaluated, but it'd be a good start.

[Heronous]

As someone that prefers Epics to all of the current other endgame content, I still agree wholeheartedly with your proposal.

VON6 has it right - a ~15% chance of a Red Scale that's worth serious plat, a ~1% chance of the Red Dragon Helm (solid raid loot for some builds) and a ~0.5% chance of a +4 tome, plus a tiny chance at the one piece of old-school loot (the FoM boots) that are still useful. Then, on top of that roughly 20% chance to get something immediately useful, you then have the upgrade pieces (shards, base items and rarely seals) as well.

DQ2 is pretty good too now - dropping +3 and +4 tomes (some +3 are even BtA), Bloodstone, Torc, Firestorm Greaves and more, but it could do with a really good craftable item like the Red Scale Armor.

All Epics should, IMO, have a chance of dropping something immediately useful. Perhaps Chains of Flame could drop Superior Focii of Fire (Shroud ingredient), Wiz-King Superior Focii of Negative Energy, DQ1 a quite good unbound Holy Cold Iron weapon (perhaps +5 keen holy burst) and so on. Drop rates would have to be carefully evaluated, but it'd be a good start.

/Signed

+1

[sephiroth1084]

Very good points.

[Auran82]

Dare I suggest other BtA items like Hearts of Wood (aren't true hearts of wood meant to drop from epics, has anyone actually seen one drop?) epic upgrade gems including maybe some rare ones you can't actually buy with tokens (Colourless +2 Exc stat, +1/+2 dodge, shroud weapon and guard effects of whatever colours etc)

[porq]

I could get behind this.

/signed

[grodon9999]

VoN6 is also a very FUN quest to. not nearly as grindy as the other epics and it's quick, I'd say it's actually easier than ToD on normal.

[sirgog]

Dare I suggest other BtA items like Hearts of Wood (aren't true hearts of wood meant to drop from epics, has anyone actually seen one drop?) epic upgrade gems including maybe some rare ones you can't actually buy with tokens (Colourless +2 Exc stat, +1/+2 dodge, shroud weapon and guard effects of whatever colours etc)

Agreed - although the special Augment tokens aren't 'instant loot' unless they are unbound, as you need an item with epic slots first, and that's not very accessible without multiple epic runs or great luck.

[GlorkTheInvader]

As someone that prefers Epics to all of the current other endgame content, I still agree wholeheartedly with your proposal.As someone who has spent three solid weeks farming epic VoN daily on multiple toons, looking for seals that don't seem to exist at all, I also wholeheartedly agree with the proposal.

At the very least, give everyone a Seal in each Epic Chest.... or something. It makes me sad that I've poured dozens of hours into Epic VoN 1&2 in the last few weeks and have literally almost nothing to show for it.

[Samadhi]

Dare I suggest other BtA items like Hearts of Wood ...

I would love to see Hearts added to any loot table and/or available in some possible other way than real money. check my sig; I have characters permanently retired because the cost to update them to current game changes is just too much.

[sirgog]

As someone who has spent three solid weeks farming epic VoN daily on multiple toons, looking for seals that don't seem to exist at all, I also wholeheartedly agree with the proposal.

At the very least, give everyone a Seal in each Epic Chest.... or something. It makes me sad that I've poured dozens of hours into Epic VoN 1&2 in the last few weeks and have literally almost nothing to show for it.

You know that certain seals have higher drop rates in certain VON quests, right?

The SoS seal seems to drop primarily in VON1, for instance.

[Chai]

How about making the trash loot equivalent or one step higher to amrath elite loot. This would make it easier to recoup expenses of having to farm epic quests plow style until you get the loot you want.

Instead we are looting weapons and armor our level 9s looted when we went into the zone on normal.

[grodon9999]

How about making the trash loot equivalent or one step higher to amrath elite loot. This would make it easier to recoup expenses of having to farm epic quests plow style until you get the loot you want.

Instead we are looting weapons and armor our level 9s looted when we went into the zone on normal.

/signed.

[sirgog]

How about making the trash loot equivalent or one step higher to amrath elite loot. This would make it easier to recoup expenses of having to farm epic quests plow style until you get the loot you want.

Instead we are looting weapons and armor our level 9s looted when we went into the zone on normal.

Amrath elite is level 21 loot (min level up to 18 on items). 22 in ToD elite.

Epics seem to be level 23 loot (min level can go up to 20).

That said, being high level doesn't make loot useful. VERY few items on the random lootgen tables are useful, and only a tiny percentage of those are uber.

[cardmj1]

/signed

I really can't stand to run epic on my cleric unless it's Von 6. Changing the loot in non raid epic quest would change my point of view.

[Samadhi]

How about making the trash loot equivalent or one step higher to amrath elite loot. This would make it easier to recoup expenses of having to farm epic quests plow style until you get the loot you want.

Instead we are looting weapons and armor our level 9s looted when we went into the zone on normal.

/agreed with Sirgog on this one.

Now, if you were proposing the random loot tables were given a bump so that it was POSSIBLE to pull random loot that was actually useful, then I could agree. As it is now, though, random loot is not even worth looking in the chest for. This has been a failing of the game for a while now IMO; but is its own discussion.

[sirgog]

/agreed with Sirgog on this one.

Now, if you were proposing the random loot tables were given a bump so that it was POSSIBLE to pull random loot that was actually useful, then I could agree. As it is now, though, random loot is not even worth looking in the chest for. This has been a failing of the game for a while now IMO; but is its own discussion.

+5 Holy Handwraps of Weighted 5% (RR, Min level 20)
+5 Metalline Handwraps of Greater Evil Outsider Bane
+5 Holy Silver Khopesh of Greater Evil Outsider Bane

Yep, there's some good stuff possible on the level 23 loot tables, just so little of it that it's not funny.

[Auran82]

Agreed - although the special Augment tokens aren't 'instant loot' unless they are unbound, as you need an item with epic slots first, and that's not very accessible without multiple epic runs or great luck.

Forgot about this thread, lol.

While they aren't 'instant loot' as such (with the needing of an epic item and all) wouldn't it make the time spent trying to get an epic item together feel more like you were going somewhere if you had a nice +2 Str colourless augment crystal waiting to slot?

[valorik]

even if I'm a little late to this thread, this is a very VERY good idea, as it stands there's no reason to run an epic quest unless you are goign to be running them a lot.

[Samadhi]

even if I'm a little late to this thread, this is a very VERY good idea, as it stands there's no reason to run an epic quest unless you are goign to be running them a lot.

Despite the piles of threads with Llama updates, I don't consider "under a week" to be THAT late :D