A way to make Sword and Board worthwhile

[Cloista]

The new combat changes have got me thinking about a way to make S&B worthwhile, and I've come up with this, feedback would be greatly appreciated:

Add Shield Bash as a proc similar to offhand attacks and add Passive DR whilst wielding a shield (to simulate hits grazing off the shield even when not actively blocking)

Non-proficient 0% proc.
Proficient +10% Passive DR 1/- (Tower Shield proficiency gives DR 4/-)

Then add the following to the shield related feats, on top of existing bonuses:

Shield Mastery - +10% proc rate, Passive DR 3/-
Improved Shield Mastery - + 10% proc rate, Passive DR 5/-
Improved Shield Bash - +20% proc rate, 2d6 additional bludgeoning damage.

All bonuses would be stacking, so a fully specced shield user would have:

DR 9/- (DR 12/- if Tower Shield) and 50% Shield Bash proc at +2d6 damage.

Numbers ofcourse could be adjusted for balance. The idea is it brings it a little closer to THF and TWF in terms of damage, but retains the defense over offense balance that it should have.

On top of this add more possible stats to shields, those which affect both hands when on one weapon for a TWFer, like Seeker, Backstabbing etc.

[Burtle]

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gyf5QgvDA

hehehehehehe:D:D

[coolpenguin410]

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7gyf5QgvDA

hehehehehehe:D:D

BWAHAHAHA! Awesome.


The new combat changes have got me thinking about a way to make S&B worthwhile, and I've come up with this, feedback would be greatly appreciated:

Add Shield Bash as a proc similar to offhand attacks and add Passive DR whilst wielding a shield (to simulate hits grazing off the shield even when not actively blocking)

Non-proficient 0% proc.
Proficient +10% Passive DR 1/- (Tower Shield proficiency gives DR 4/-)

Then add the following to the shield related feats, on top of existing bonuses:

Shield Mastery - +10% proc rate, Passive DR 3/-
Improved Shield Mastery - + 10% proc rate, Passive DR 5/-
Improved Shield Bash - +20% proc rate, 2d6 additional bludgeoning damage.

All bonuses would be stacking, so a fully specced shield user would have:

DR 9/- (DR 12/- if Tower Shield) and 50% Shield Bash proc at +2d6 damage.

Numbers ofcourse could be adjusted for balance. The idea is it brings it a little closer to THF and TWF in terms of damage, but retains the defense over offense balance that it should have.

I think the passive DR is too much. Honestly, I think we could go without it all together. But that's just my opinion. AC builds usually have DR of their own already.

However, adding a proc chance for a shield bash would make perfect sense to go with the new changes to TWF. However, it can't be too high or do too much damage because TWF should still be more DPS than S&B. A 50% when fully specc'ed sounds fair.

[arminius]

The real reason TWF is so popular and therefore in the minds of some needs to be nerfed actually boils down to the problems with S+B.

As it stands, you could give most people +10 mithril fullplate, +10 mithril tower shield, and +10 protection item, and they still wouldn't have meaningful AC for end game. AC is as broken as it possibly can be. And they act surprised that in response everyone slaps on two khopeshes, scimitars or rapiers and goes to town.

Seriously, if you had to send 1000 infantry into battle tomorrow, and you had a choice of outfitting them all with full armor and heavy shields with a one handed weapon, or robes and two khopeshs, which do you think is more advisable? The game should reflect that common sense in some fashion.

And if not, then say, MMO rules, screw it, leave TWF alone, it's exciting and fun, and go away now and make more dungeons please.

[Kobu]

I like the premise behind this idea. The numbers and how to go about it are debatable and I'm certainly not an expert outside of the PnP game, but I do think S&B and THF need to be brought in line somehow with TWF. There should be trade-offs, not complete domination of one style.

[Timjc86]

I like this idea a lot.

[CaptGrim]

The real reason TWF is so popular and therefore in the minds of some needs to be nerfed actually boils down to the problems with S+B.

As it stands, you could give most people +10 mithril fullplate, +10 mithril tower shield, and +10 protection item, and they still wouldn't have meaningful AC for end game. AC is as broken as it possibly can be. And they act surprised that in response everyone slaps on two khopeshes, scimitars or rapiers and goes to town.

Seriously, if you had to send 1000 infantry into battle tomorrow, and you had a choice of outfitting them all with full armor and heavy shields with a one handed weapon, or robes and two khopeshs, which do you think is more advisable? The game should reflect that common sense in some fashion.

And if not, then say, MMO rules, screw it, leave TWF alone, it's exciting and fun, and go away now and make more dungeons please.

Thats why this is a good idea, AC is broken for most people, and adding a DR element for having a shield would go a step in the right direction for having the shield mean somthing when viable AC is impractical or unattainable without crazy gear.

I think the Proc rate and the DR seem a little high but play testing would be needed for balance. I'd go with 40% fully speced and 10 DR with tower.


Edit: you could also have SW defender III add 3 ish DR and purple dragon knight III add 10% proc for 50% and 13 DR respectivly

[FuzzyDuck81]

how about shield bash, and have that bash itself have a small chance of stunning, similar to the weighted items?

so a fully specced stalwart defender would have a 50% chance of a shield bash proccing, and then THAT attack would have maybe up to 5% (with the PrEs & possibly a lil higher with item effect on shield?) chance of causing a stun on hit? would add a lot more benefit to playing a tank/sword & board beyond specific circumstances, and each of the 3 main melee styles would have some very distinct advantages

[RobbinB]

Your post basically echoes what I posted a couple of days ago.

I just wanted to make sure that the passive dr for carrying a shield that you propose would not stack with the current active blocking dr (but simply be replaced by it), because otherwise turtling dr could get insanely high and we don't need the mob damage-inflation that might come with that.

Also, if you read my post, I believe it would actually be better to add more dr to medium and heavy armors and only some to shields, so that all fighters in armor gain significant passive dr, and the shield users are maybe 20-30% higher in dr. Ditto for AC for armor wearers, shield use should improve your ac but not be the difference between "hit on a 1" and "useable ac".

[Aerendil]

how about shield bash, and have that bash itself have a small chance of stunning, similar to the weighted items?

so a fully specced stalwart defender would have a 50% chance of a shield bash proccing, and then THAT attack would have maybe up to 5% (with the PrEs & possibly a lil higher with item effect on shield?) chance of causing a stun on hit? would add a lot more benefit to playing a tank/sword & board beyond specific circumstances, and each of the 3 main melee styles would have some very distinct advantages

This is what I proposed in another thread. Add a stun component to shield bash. Nobody bashes to improve dps, so it's a largely unused ability. But if it could stun an enemy (ala stunning blow/fist, weighted items), then it would quite a nice offensive ability for S&B folk. Charge that trog shaman and shield bash him, then finish him while he's stunned.

That alone would be a great improvement and make S&B 100% more enjoyable.

Shields are as much an offensive tool as a defensive one.

[SquelchHU]

Sounds like the Arcane Archer of Sword and Board. This is not a good thing.

To elaborate, I'm saying that does just enough to make people think sword and board works now, but without actually making it work. Making it work would involve going far deeper than that.

[Aesop]

I think I just posted something similar... actually we've been talking about something similar for about 3-4 years now.




there are 4 melee styles (plus unarmed but that's a differenct animal)


The way I look at it each should have an Offensive capability and a Defensive capability

Two Handed Fighting: Big DPS per Hit. Glancing Blows
Two Weapon Fighting: Lots of Hits. Off Hand Attacks
Weapon and Shield: Offense and Defense. Shield Bash
Single Weapon: Quick and balanced. Double Strikes

Glancing Blows cause auxillary damage to multiple opponents and some extra to primary
Off Hand Attacks are direct offense against the target.
Shield Bash similar to Off Hand Attacks though lesser in frequency and damage due to shields being lesser "weapons" than most off hand weapons (except Light Hammers ;) )
Double Strikes quick strikes that catch an opponent off guard. Less frequent than off hand attacks but stronger than Shield Attacks.

These translate well into the three tier Feat Chains for the offensive styles.

THF
ITHF
GTHF

TWF
ITWF
GTWF

Shield Bash
Improved Shield Bash
Greater Shield Bash

Einhander
Improved Einhander
Greater Einhander

If the Proc rates are tied primarily to the off hand slot then the different styles could take into account the different feats and how they react to the game.

example
No Feat: Shield Bash 15%
Shield Bash: 30%
Improved Shield Bash: 45%
Greater Shield Bash: 60%

In addition certain PrEs could enhance the proc rate of certain styles. frenzied Berzerker would most notably affect THF while Kensai could affect all styles to a lesser degree but only with the Signature Weapon. Defender would be a heavy favorite for Weapon and Shield style as well as the Pally Defender style PrE.


Capstones like the Barbarian and Fighter capstone could also add to Proc rate. Barbarian to THF and Fighter as a lesser effect to all Style Procs. (Fighter is the master of Weaponry)


additionally Movement could affect this rate (-20% perhaps)

the Spring Attack Feat could reduce this to -10%

also Attack Sequence could apply a benefit to off set some of the twitch speed benefit without actually negating the twitch benefit

-10%/+0%/+10%/+20%


Come to think of it this could also change how Many Shot works. Make it a Proc Effect and have it increase over the levels. Start it out at a 15% Proc Rate and have it increase by 15% every time it gains another arrow. The Ranger Capstone could add another 15% and Deepwoods sniper could add 10% per tier or something like that.


and while we are applying Procs to things...

Why not a Proc to Block? I mean as a defensive component.


Weapon and Shield would get the best benefit out of this but even TWF and others could use a little something something in this line... especially with the state of AC.


Shield use itself could start with a 10% benefit without Feats

Shield Mastery could grant its 3 Blocking DR, +1 Shield AC and +10% Blocking Proc
Improved Shield Mastery could do the same.


Two Weapon Defense and Two Weapon Blocking could be combined into one feat and grant a flat 10%

further installments of the Feat

Improved Two Weapon Defence and Greater could grant a +5% bonus on top of their other benefits +1/+2 AC

Bucklers could be allowed to be used in off hand slot by THF granting half the shields Blocking Proc benefit (thus 5%) and the Improved Buckler Defense Feat could add 5-10% on top of that... as well as the benefits of the Buckler (I'm thinking guard effects)

Bucklers would not count as shields and thus would not gain Shield Bash Attacks and only half the static Blocking Proc benefit.

Einhander could have a Interposing Blade Technique that granted something similar to TWD.

would be a nice way to balance things out a bit...

Of course lots of numbers to play with honestly

Aesop

[Timjc86]

[Snip]
Long list of really good ideas which I can't provide any more positive rep for just yet.
[Snip]
Aesop

So... any interest in a spot on the dev team? :D

[RobbinB]

Yadda-yadda-yadda
Aesop

Re: 4 different melee styles
Straightforward and nicely laid out. More thorough version of what others have proposed. I like it a lot.

Re: manyshot change
The one thing I like about the existing manyshot is that you use it then you have to wait, so there's a skill involved. A good player seems always to activate at the right time and make full use of it for the 20 secs they have....a bad player, the opposite.
Changing manyshot to stance or proc rate or whatever in some ways just takes away that skill element - the typical forum crowd can just say archery sucks cuz it only does w.xyz% of current THF damage. That's the one reason I don't think I would change the current implimentation.

Re: blocking effect to shield
I proposed the same thing in my post re: combat revamp about a week ago.

I would definitely like to see shield use just provide a number of small benefits - a dash of ac, a little dr, increased chance to block incoming blows. Just enough stuff to be "worthwhile" as a combat form, but not something over the top that leads to "exploitive" uses. And DDO is a dps-centric game - no way can any combat form only do 50% dps and be "viable", so offensive changes are a must.