U5 combat feedback THF exclusively

[Cetus]

I'd like to create a supplementary thread to eladrins proposed combat feedback exclusively discussing THF styles.

As I'm trying to digest the previous thread, there are simply too many posts going in all different directions to try to create a clear idea of what exactly the outcome will be for THF, particularly fighters who have 10% alacrity and fighter haste boosts.

I am already NOT happy seeing that "Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows."

Why the nerf thus far? And please explicitly explain the mechanism behind fighter haste boost and alacrity either by someone who understood it thoroughly or by eladrin himself. I'm quite concerned.

[Newtons_Apple]

Ibtl.

[Shade]

/Signed.

Tolero has been closing all other threads lik this but given how much flak I got for trying to discuss the THF issues on that thread I believe this deserves it own one.. Since it's really not being discussed in the main thread.

Too hard to hear anything about it with all the TWF fans shouting so loudly. They end up bringing up off-topc things about my play style simply because I was the one to bring it up.. Sad really.

The idea of the changes were mainly fix DPS lag, and it's been acknoledges that THF isn't causing it. So why the nerf?

[Cetus]

This needs to be discussed because the very mechanism of combat is being altered. I am getting quite frustrated at what I was reading, fighters haven't gotten love since PrE were released, and now the very essence of the attack speed capstone/boost that made them more powerful is in question.

[Ethias]

This does appear to be a direct, intentional nerf to twitching or whatever.

Perhaps it is done in preparation for the last part of Eladrin's post relating to Glacing Blows & THF being adjusted to be like the proposed TWF line.

[Cetus]

From my understanding thus far, You have a 100% chance to land 11 instead of 10 hits with the capstone.

Now with the change implemented, its a 10% chance to proc an additional hit aka "doubletrike" every hit, or in an attack sequence?

That still is effectively <100% chance of laying an 11th hit in a 10 hit sequence.

If you are hasted boosted, then in a 20 second interval you have an additional 30% chance to land a doublestrike effect?

[lolwatboomer]

This does appear to be a direct, intentional nerf to twitching or whatever.

Perhaps it is done in preparation for the last part of Eladrin's post relating to Glacing Blows & THF being adjusted to be like the proposed TWF line.

it's not just a nerf to twitching, it's a nerf to thf in general

you are forced to stand and attack regardless of the situation, even if you want to kite/juke - unless of course you feel like taking a huge dps hit :rolleyes:

proposed changes nerf twf by 20%, and thf by 15% (numbers by monkey_archer)

[xTethx]

The devs just want to hit everyone with the nerf bat. They might as well nerf firewall and blade barrier as well.

As far as for fighter, your haste boost is unchanged, you're gonna attack 10% slower, and 10% of all your regular attacks proc another attack.

[abrownbear9108]

it seems i havent read the U5 stuff thouroughly, this is the first i have heard of them nerfing THF........and i'm not happy........

when i cant get normal hits on stuff, my glancing blows usually do some damage (15-20+ atm i believe) but removing GB's when moving is just not cool.........i play fighter often and this is just not helping me now, expecially seeing as they have apparently ruled out GB's from DPS lag causes

[Cetus]

TWF is going to operate more like THF in terms of the physics detection mechnaism upon a hit that eladrin stated in his OP.

Would it be possible to implement doublestrike as a TWF feature exclusively? and keep the THF line unchanged, that way the physics detection mechanism will be synonymous with the way THF operate, thus lag reduction is achieved as if you had a bunch of THF'ers in the party.

[Consumer]

The easiest way to tell if someone knows how to play a THF toon is to watch them twitch imo. With this aspect of THF worthless its gonna make a lot of awful players look a lot better unfortunately.

Auto attacking is gonna make a noticeable change in DPS and seems to be an attempt to even the epic SoS with TWF Greensteels.

Playing my Barbs is going to be whole lot less fun and playing a nerfed TWF is going to be worse.

[lolwatboomer]

The easiest way to tell if someone knows how to play a THF toon is to watch them twitch imo. With this aspect of THF worthless its gonna make a lot of awful players look a lot better unfortunately.

totally agreed

not so much on the "awful players look better" though ... i wouldn't go as far as to say "you can't twitch so you're garbage!"

[Targoth1]

/Signed.

Tolero has been closing all other threads lik this but given how much flak I got for trying to discuss the THF issues on that thread I believe this deserves it own one.. Since it's really not being discussed in the main thread.

Too hard to hear anything about it with all the TWF fans shouting so loudly. They end up bringing up off-topc things about my play style simply because I was the one to bring it up.. Sad really.

The idea of the changes were mainly fix DPS lag, and it's been acknoledges that THF isn't causing it. So why the nerf?

Given your comments about people that had a defensive play style, I have no sympathy for you now that it is your play style that is threatened.

[MarcusCole]

Hey Cetussssss.....


FU ;)

[HumanJHawkins]

Ugh. I've never played THF because it has always been inferior DPS for the most important DPS cases. But I am just getting tired of the same old thing, so am planning to build a THF toon soon.

I hate the thought of this nerf. I don't twitch to gain DPS. But I do constantly move to remain behind an enemy, or make sure the fewest number of opponents is flanking me, etc.

The only thing I've seen here that gives me a bit of hope is that TWF may be getting nerfed by slightly more. It's the balance that is important, more than the raw numbers. So if the game is actually getting more balanced, I guess this might be good.

Still... Ugh. The f'ing game is fun and the combat system is great. Why keep trying to ruin it?

[Shade]

This does appear to be a direct, intentional nerf to twitching or whatever.


Conjecture.

Provide some reasoning behind it. I really can't see any.

All I see is people that don't understand the game blaming everything on somethign they don't udnerstand every single time the combat system is changed.

You all said the same thing when attack speeds were changed - that twitch won't be good anymore. You were wrong. Your wrong again.

Before this change, Twitch/attacking while moving will increase dps.
After this change, Twitch/attacking while moving will increase dps.

Yea indirectly, twitch will lose some DPS. But so will any THF combat in general. So that's not a direct nerf at all.

This just nerfs all THF incredibly by removing all aoe damage while moving (a major feature of the GTHF)

With this removed, there would hardly be any reason to take GTHF.. Thus Barbarians will gain more ground over fighters as they're feat selection for DPS won't be so limited, while fighters have less useful feats to select from.

If anything, this is a indirect nerf to the fighter class. Not twitching.

[Shade]

Given your comments about people that had a defensive play style, I have no sympathy for you now that it is your play style that is threatened.

Whatever comments I made were not made as excuses for upcoming nerfs.

And I don't need your sympathy, because as I've explained, my play style is NOT at threat here. The ones prposing the threats are people that have no idea what this nerf will mean.

[Dark_Helmet]

I'd like to create a supplementary thread to eladrins proposed combat feedback exclusively discussing THF styles.

I am already NOT happy seeing that "Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows."

Why the nerf thus far? And please explicitly explain the mechanism behind fighter haste boost and alacrity either by someone who understood it thoroughly or by eladrin himself. I'm quite concerned.

IMO - Glancing blows shouldn't have been in the system in the first place. I think it also creates an unnecessary load by having to calculate what is nearby that should take damage. A two handed weapon should just do massive damage when it hits, just less often (except the cleave which power players seem to hate).

[Tolero]

I understand the targeted THF topic, so I'm going to move this to the combat forum to make it easier to track. Note that in some cases there are going to continue to be thread mergers/moves (I'll try to avoid actual "mergers" when possible), as this helps the appropriate team members follow the discussions.

[Cetus]

I understand the targeted THF topic, so I'm going to move this to the combat forum to make it easier to track. Note that in some cases there are going to continue to be thread mergers/moves (I'll try to avoid actual "mergers" when possible), as this helps the appropriate team members follow the discussions.

Thank you tolero

[Ollathir]

So from what I'm gleening, DPS we build our DPS melee characters for comes down to a luck based system.

On occasion, I've not been extremly fond of it on my casters. Ie; max out your crit enhancements, items, etc you have about an 18% increased chance of getting a crit. You may get lucky and land 3 crits every 3 spells cast, or it could be 1 in 30.

I'd like to know on average how much less DPS we're looking at before understanding the effect it may have on everyone else. Are we talking an extra 3-5 mins in raids to beat down a boss?

[ragwa1]

I can't believe this is even being considered....

[MarcusCole]

I can't believe this is even being considered....

Lag can be frustrating and can cause raid wipes, but I'm sure most people who play a TWF toon would gladly deal with the lag if it a 25% nerf to dps. So yeah neither can I.

[Monkey_Archer]

I'd like to leave twitch attacking out of this discussion. While the devs havent said its unintended, or an exploit or whatever, they also haven't officially said its an intended combat style either. (Even though they should. As a bottom line, it adds fun to the game for many players like myself, and fun makes players stay)

So on to "officially legitimate combat"...
Autoattacking vs Constant movement.

Currently (assuming no misses) TWF autoattack does around the same dps as TWF while constantly moving. These changes wont affect that relationship at all.

Currently (assuming no misses) THF autoattack does around the same dps as THF while constantly moving. The problem now, is that removing glancing blows from moving attacks effectively makes mobile combat undesirable (approximately 10-15% less dps then autoattack)

Regardless of what any1 thinks of twitch attacking (or what the dev's official position on it is) this change would be a heavy nerf on mobile combat for THFs. Maybe its just me, but the whole role reversal here doesnt make much sense...

[justagame]

For all the talk about how TWF is affected, I seriously worry that this will cause more of a downgrade to the THF playstyle. Unless I misunderstand, it's basically eliminating MOST of the gain one gets from the GTHF feat.

I'm not even talking about full-time twitching against a single stationary target -- I'm talking about the hit-and-move style many THFs use when fighting in groups, partly to avoid being hit, but also to get their DPS to a somewhat respectable level (compared to TWF). I can really see this really downgrading the fun factor, and making combat less active. Furthermore, what would the purpose then be of the GTHF feat? (It really needs to be more than just one glancing blow late in the chain -- heck, GTWF grants a whole additional attack (with full proc of all bonuses and extras), but all GTHF would to is add a glancing blow, which at best is a fraction of an attack, and only a miniscule chance of proc-ing stuff).

[Kriogen]

If twitch THF is not liked by server (too much speed, too much calcs, move detect, colision detect, damage...), then why not:
- move glancing blows to 3rd and 4th
- increase proc rate of glancing blows by alot because it's now on slower attack
- let 3rd and 4th attack roll high number. So not 1-12 for axe, but 6-12. Maybe 4th attack would simply do "max" damage

Change things in such a way, that average damage output is more or less the same. Less speed (twitch not wellcome), but as reward, random generator is on your side.

Maybe?

[Monkey_Archer]

It’s likely that we’ll change Glancing Blows to operate in a similar manner in the future as well (chance to proc based on feats/enhancements rather than guaranteed on swing X), but right now I have to stay pretty focused on TWF and monk unarmed combat.


If i can go out on a limb here...
Ideally the above statement would mean that any hit (moving or stationary) would have a chance to proc glancing blows... maybe at the same rate as offhand attacks.

hmm... /signed? :)

[Matuse]

Personally, I'm tired of the game going into slideshow mode during large DPS sequences. I'm tired of standing at the base of the stairs in Phase1 of the Shroud for 3 minutes after the last portal is destroyed waiting for the barrier on the stairs to go down so I can join everyone else at the shrine/chests. I'm tired of people dying without even seeing they are being hurt. I'm tired of raids wiping because we all freeze for 10 seconds while the monsters have a free reign.

If it means losing a bit of damage? Good deal.

Course, I think there are also other ways to improve it. Like not spreading out burst damage on crits apart from the normal hit. Shocking burst should do +15, not +5 +10 with all the separate resist checks etc that involves.

[Pyromaniac]

Personally I hate the negatives to moving. Regardless of twitch, I like to move when I fight in DDO. Its what makes the game fun to play.

If we have to stand still, this game is going to be stale and boring like other MMOs. If we have to live with this new system, how about giving player arcanes unlimited mana. Then we can all switch to arcane, and reduce DPS lag :)

[Consumer]

Personally I hate the negatives to moving. Regardless of twitch, I like to move when I fight in DDO. Its what makes the game fun to play.

If we have to stand still, this game is going to be stale and boring like other MMOs. If we have to live with this new system, how about giving player arcanes unlimited mana. Then we can all switch to arcane, and reduce DPS lag :)

I thought arcanes already had unlimited sp, its just controlled by their wallet.

I personally get barely any DPS lag, taking the end of shroud part 1 as an example I'm straight up those stairs and the first one to open the chest, however when I play on an older machine then I start to get lag.


I don't want to have to stand still and Autoattack portals or stop infront of every mob I see. One thing I love about THF is the reach of the weapon and the fact that I can move relatively quickly from mob to mob while twitching.


Taking a game like this that has an endgame heavily focused on DPS and then nerfing the DPS of all players seems to be a step backwards.

[Artagon]

I think this is an opportunity for the devs to add glancing blows back in via the mobility or spring attack feat. By doing so, they allow the fighter with tons of feats to inch just that much closer to a barbarian in DPS. Just a thought.

I also want to mention that I'm running a quad-core 3.1ghz machine with 4G of ram and an 8800GT nvidia card.. and I have approximately 3 minutes of lag after every beat-down session in the shroud.. where I don't have ANY lag in any other part of the game. I would like to contribute to shroud runs again, please. At this juncture I just hide my character in a "safe spot" and let everyone carry me through.. and it's not fair to ME, or the other players who got stuck with me in their raid. This isn't about having an "older machine" which causes the lag, because my machine has yet to find something I can't do at full settings.

[Krag]

As much as I mislike TWF nerf, this one is worse.
FPS-like combat is what makes DDO fun. Constant moving, jumping, changing position, avoiding attacks is the part I like about this game. Take twitching away and DDO will lose half of its appeal.

[SquelchHU]

As much as I mislike TWF nerf, this one is worse.
FPS-like combat is what makes DDO fun. Constant moving, jumping, changing position, avoiding attacks is the part I like about this game. Take twitching away and DDO will lose half of its appeal.

Only half?

Let's be honest here. DDO's appeal is directly tied to the real time, fast combat. It remains a highly enjoyable game if and only if the combat remains real time and fast. DDO is NOT going to win if it tries to compete against any of the auto attack and sammich games on their own terms.

Even those I rarely, if ever agree with about anything are coming to the same conclusion. And when people rarely see eye to eye, and yet do here that is a good sign that whatever is causing them to see eye to eye is A Big Deal (tm).

[Paragon]

From my understanding thus far, You have a 100% chance to land 11 instead of 10 hits with the capstone.

Now with the change implemented, its a 10% chance to proc an additional hit aka "doubletrike" every hit, or in an attack sequence?

That still is effectively <100% chance of laying an 11th hit in a 10 hit sequence.

If you are hasted boosted, then in a 20 second interval you have an additional 30% chance to land a doublestrike effect?

True, you get about a 65% chance to get at least one extra swing in 10, but you have an increase in the chance to proc TWO extra hits in 10 swings from 0% to about 40%, as well as chances to proc three, four, five, even up to ten extra hits in ten swings going up from zero to some chance of happening. Over the long run, the change from an attack speed increase to a "double-strike" system is a wash, even if you see some attack sequences of 10 swings that generate no extra hits, there will be an equivalent increase in times you see more than one extra hit and the dps will come out to the same thing.

[Kromize]

I am already NOT happy seeing that "Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows."
I find this will be more, realistic, if anything. And also reduce some 'twitching'...


Why the nerf thus far?
To better the game


And please explicitly explain the mechanism behind fighter haste boost and alacrity either by someone who understood it thoroughly or by eladrin himself. I'm quite concerned.
Yes please. This is important stuff, I want my fighter to be able to attack as fast as he has always been able to...

[justagame]

In addition to serious concern about the reduction in effectiveness and enjoyment factor of THF, I also wonder just how much this will address the issue.

My experience has been that lag has been an issue during specific times and quests. (For example, shroud parts 4 and 5, during peak play hours). Are moving glancing blows really the problem here? I've played a THF pally, and find that during single-target beatdowns in raids, there are so many massed melees and effects, that it is challenging to impossible to track your own swings precisely enough to "twitch" (while also executing smites, action boosts, whatever). Maybe there are others that do this consistently in raid beatdowns, but I find it impractical.

It's not here, but in more routine combat, that the fun and effectiveness of moving glancing blows is more apparent. But that's not where the lag is, by and large.

So, if removing this (moving glancing blows) is going to put a serious dent in THF, the kind that will do more than the TWF nerf in many ways, in that it will change the nature and feel of the combat -- yet, won't do much to address shroud part 4 and 5 lag, why do it? It seems to me a change that gains relatively little where lag is worst, yet costs so much in terms of the hit to players.

JMHO

[Xionanx]

The only reasoning I can think of for this change is to discourage "twitching" while THF.

If the original post is to be believed, then the simple act of determining if a weapon actually "touched" the target is causing lag. Checking every 0.15 seconds in the case of a "stationary" TWF.

So, consider if you will that a "twitch" THF is getting almost as many attacks as a TWF, but that those attacks are being made while being "in motion" therefore requiring a "new" collision detection calculation for every swing. Then you have to factor in the collsion detections for the glancing blows as well, which would place your total calculations GREATER then a stationary or moving TWF as they get no glancing blows.

Effectively, a twitching THF causes more "lag" then a stationary TWF if the information we are being provided with can be believed.

By removing the glancing blow calculations from a THF you eliminate the need for those calculations while at the same time discouraging what I believe to be an unintended combat style "twitching".

If it is seen as a "nerf" thats unfortunate but considering that both THF and TWF are getting "nerfed" for the same reasons.

Now I cant wait for the Archery/Manyshot nerf "Sorry, too many to hit calculations in the 20 seconds you have manyshot going so we decided to just make archers attack slower in general:rolleyes::D"

Now this is all just conjecture on my part, but someone asked "why" and that's the best explanation I can come up with.

[Nezichiend]

I personally get barely any DPS lag, taking the end of shroud part 1 as an example I'm straight up those stairs and the first one to open the chest, however when I play on an older machine then I start to get lag.

If you do not get DPS lag, you aren't doing enough DPS. Part 1 isn't that bad, part 4 and part 5 are the worst. Once you get to epic von6, or ToD or epic dq, tell me you do not get lag. Please.

[Consumer]

If you do not get DPS lag, you aren't doing enough DPS. Part 1 isn't that bad, part 4 and part 5 are the worst. Once you get to epic von6, or ToD or epic dq, tell me you do not get lag. Please.

Lol

Its funny that Shade can film a epic von 6 with fraps and barely get any lag and you don't insult his toons for not doing enough DPS.

I used part 1 as an example as someone already had earlier in the thread. Don't get annoyed because I don't experience the lag you do.

Maybe the first person I squelch on the forums.

[Cetus]

Look at shades video or my own of epic dragona and tell me if thats enouth dps for ya.

The point is this: THF'ers do not contiute to lag to the extent that TWF do because of how epic dragon, for example reacts to the group makeup. Lag ensues only when you have TWF'ers beating on the dragon in addition to two handers, as opposed to two handers alone. This is tested and seen by everyone who run the quest.

So fix the cause, allow the doublestrike mechanism to apply ONLY to twf'ers, if thers a decremental decrease in dps- then adjust it by a percentage. Leave THF untouched- problem solved.

Or beteter yet, apply the doublestrike affect only in the sense of physics etection- leave the dps unhanged, I don't think ther was much complaint about its performance.

[donfilibuster]

Leave the game mechanics as it is, ask the devs to research a purely technical way to resolve the fast combat.
The piggyback on the physics check and turning off combat feedback are two such ideas but surely can be further looked into.

[Thrudh]

The easiest way to tell if someone knows how to play a THF toon is to watch them twitch imo. With this aspect of THF worthless its gonna make a lot of awful players look a lot better unfortunately.

Auto attacking is gonna make a noticeable change in DPS and seems to be an attempt to even the epic SoS with TWF Greensteels.

Playing my Barbs is going to be whole lot less fun and playing a nerfed TWF is going to be worse.

Having to twitch constantly is pain in the butt for most people... I'm VERY glad this may be gone... If the monster is moving, I'll move... If the monster is standing still, it's crazy that I have to "twitch" while fighting so that the ubers don't think I'm worthless.

I have enough chance for carpel tunnel with my day job on a computer, and playing this game for 2-3 hours a night... I'll be very excited if the bonus from "twitching" is removed from this game.

[Thrudh]

As much as I mislike TWF nerf, this one is worse.
FPS-like combat is what makes DDO fun. Constant moving, jumping, changing position, avoiding attacks is the part I like about this game. Take twitching away and DDO will lose half of its appeal.

Twitching has nothing to do with moving, jumping, changing position, and avoiding attacks... I love that part of DDO too.... I love maneuvering to keep a troll between me and his two buddies so only the first one can actually swing at me...

Twitching is when you have to move constantly while beating on a stationary target... Some people are good at it and enjoy it I guess... I can do it, but it's hard on my fingers, and it's very fake... Twitching is not tactical movement... Twitching is to increase your DPS by semi-exploiting the combat system to get your DPS higher.

[lolwatboomer]

Twitching has nothing to do with moving, jumping, changing position, and avoiding attacks... I love that part of DDO too.... I love maneuvering to keep a troll between me and his two buddies so only the first one can actually swing at me...

Twitching is when you have to move constantly while beating on a stationary target... Some people are good at it and enjoy it I guess... I can do it, but it's hard on my fingers, and it's very fake... Twitching is not tactical movement... Twitching is to increase your DPS by semi-exploiting the combat system to get your DPS higher.

you do realize the proposed changes nerf thf dps while moving, regardless of whether or not you're "twitching"

[Swedishchef]

I never was a great twitcher, but some people are and put out more dmg while twitching, *some say exploiting* i say that all of us are trying to "beat" the game and this is something you have been abel to for a long time so i see no point in making this change to thf.
As for the glancing blows, they have been on and off for the third time now? I know we had em at beta, i know we had em in gianthold and we have them now, all theese times they have been nerfed so it´s nothing new.

Now if the servers don´t like dps lagg all i have to say is: Get new hardware, you are making enough revenue to invest in it, and don´t nerf the combat.

TBH i think new serverhardware would solve alot (if we are talking lagg issues), and i don´t think melee dps should be nerfed at all due to they still lack in solo ability vs casters divine and arcane from mid to high-lvl so it would only be fair to the melees to be abel to have something good going for them.
I was even considering making a 2hf just for flavour but now i think i´ll stay safe with 2wf or just roll up another fvs or sorc.

my 2cp.

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

I've never run Shroud (Lv 17 toon is flagged, but I'd rather wait another Level), and while I realize it's a major Raid and quite important, is it really worth nerfing TWF and THF in order to decrease the lag (which, from what I've heard, happens mainly in the Shroud) for one quest?

Personally, I'll keep playing DDO as long as my guild is active and the general FPS/Legend of Zelda feel of the combat is unchanged. I don't consider myself a power gamer, so the numbers talk doesn't phase me (although I like dealing damage quite a bit!). I just hope the game remains fun and Priam isn't gimped by the new updates.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I've never run Shroud (Lv 17 toon is flagged, but I'd rather wait another Level), and while I realize it's a major Raid and quite important, is it really worth nerfing TWF and THF in order to decrease the lag (which, from what I've heard, happens mainly in the Shroud) for one quest?

Personally, I'll keep playing DDO as long as my guild is active and the general FPS/Legend of Zelda feel of the combat is unchanged. I don't consider myself a power gamer, so the numbers talk doesn't phase me (although I like dealing damage quite a bit!). I just hope the game remains fun and Priam isn't gimped by the new updates.

People don't seem to get it even though it keeps being repeated....

The nerf to TWF was not for lag, it was because they thought it was ahead of THF and they wanted to make them competitive. The devs have also tried at least twice to get rid of twitch combat - they don't like it or intend for it to be there. These are changes the Devs WANT to do NOT related to lag but that are convinient to change at this time since they are touching swing mechanics anyway.

The portion of the change dealing with lag is a change to collision mechanics and it could be done without any change to actual combat.

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

People don't seem to get it even though it keeps being repeated....

The nerf to TWF was not for lag, it was because they thought it was ahead of THF and they wanted to make them competitive. The devs have also tried at least twice to get rid of twitch combat - they don't like it or intend for it to be there. These are changes the Devs WANT to do NOT related to lag but that are convinient to change at this time since they are touching swing mechanics anyway.

The portion of the change dealing with lag is a change to collision mechanics and it could be done without any change to actual combat.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up then. But why nerf when they can attempt to improve the failing fighting style? Or have they already tried that in an unsuccessful way?

Pardon my ignorance of the technical details.

[Chai]

Conjecture.

Provide some reasoning behind it. I really can't see any.

All I see is people that don't understand the game blaming everything on somethign they don't udnerstand every single time the combat system is changed.

You all said the same thing when attack speeds were changed - that twitch won't be good anymore. You were wrong. Your wrong again.

Before this change, Twitch/attacking while moving will increase dps.
After this change, Twitch/attacking while moving will increase dps.

Yea indirectly, twitch will lose some DPS. But so will any THF combat in general. So that's not a direct nerf at all.

This just nerfs all THF incredibly by removing all aoe damage while moving (a major feature of the GTHF)

With this removed, there would hardly be any reason to take GTHF.. Thus Barbarians will gain more ground over fighters as they're feat selection for DPS won't be so limited, while fighters have less useful feats to select from.

If anything, this is a indirect nerf to the fighter class. Not twitching.

Yourself and others are looking for a DEV to come right out and say it, or you will continue to deny that this is whats happening. They pretty much already have. Actions speak louder than words. While I dont necessarily agree with the nerf, I will say that the nerf is "saying" what words are not. What you call conjecture, I call observation based conclusion, based on probability. What other probable explanation is there?

How does barbarian being able to drop GTHF and take something else give them more ground in the DPS game? What will they take in place of GTHF that will increase damage output further?

Fighters have the same feats to select from as barbarians do. They just get 18 feats, so yeah naturally there will be some choices that dont have a clear cut impact on DPS, but this doesnt change in either case. It has always been that way. It is that way now, and will continue to be that way after the nerf.

Twitch is DIRECTLY losing DPS due to not getting glancing blows applied to it, as will every swing when moving period. Again, though I dont agree with it, it is a DIRECT nerf. You have even stated in the past that the THF combat style is all about being able to move and attack multiple targets at the same time in order to draw aggro and damage multiple mobs. DPS numbers are being removed from that playstyle, and it doesnt get more direct than that. It doesnt mean twitching wont be better DPS than not twitching, but it sure is taking a hit.

[Samadhi]

The change to glancing blows is way overboard IMO. So many mobs in this game bounce around like jackrabbits that this essentially means in 90% of non-raid content there will be no glancing blows at all. Doesn't seem like any real point in spending the feats for those anymore. /lame

[D-molisher]

Dooooh.
I move with my 2 h fighters, basicly to keep mobs from flanking me.
With this proposed change, you would remove the main reason for GTWF.
Wow this update 5 will change alot, i seriously hope you test this alot on Lamnia or what its called.

P.S So now i mostlikely got to rebuild 3 tempest rangers & my 2h bard, palladin & monk. After update 5 - bummer. Only 75 % off my chars.

[Cetus]

Why are you people argueing over twitch attack? Its a choice. You lose to-hit as a result of doing it, you dont want to lsoe to hit? You need to invest into feats to get rid of it. Its perfectly balanced. You don't like it? Its hard on your fingers? You don't have to use it, no one will look at you as a newb if you don't adapt an optional playstyle such as moving while attacking "commonly called twitching."

If the developers are concerned with TWF being so overpowered, whats with the statement in the OP saying how they "overdid it" with the ESOS, its self contradictory.

Then the OP goes on describing the physical detection ensueing after a hit is processed and propose a solution to treat TWF more like THF in terms of lag mitigation.

My solution is, sure, go ahead- let the combat assocaited with TWF change to that mechanism, as long as their DPS isnt altered, and let THF and their glancing blows be.

Let the attack speed modifiers stay the way they are, THF is no threat to on-hit process lag as long as TWF is recognized in the same fashion. TWF'ers are clearly happier with the way they are now than with the proposed solution, and those that have intimately adapted THF as a playstyle are happier with it being untouched as well.

[Roziel_Longblade]

It would be a shame if there was no option for 2hw to do glancing damage while moving. 2wf will have the option of STWF to maintain current dps lvls. It would be nice if 2hf had something similar.

Would it be possible for Spring Attack to re-enable mobile 2h glancing damage? It is very feat intensive to unlock spring attack, which is currently a pretty weak stand alone feat.

[Chai]

Why are you people argueing over twitch attack? Its a choice. You lose to-hit as a result of doing it, you dont want to lsoe to hit? You need to invest into feats to get rid of it. Its perfectly balanced. You don't like it? Its hard on your fingers? You don't have to use it, no one will look at you as a newb if you don't adapt an optional playstyle such as moving while attacking "commonly called twitching."

If the developers are concerned with TWF being so overpowered, whats with the statement in the OP saying how they "overdid it" with the ESOS, its self contradictory.

Then the OP goes on describing the physical detection ensueing after a hit is processed and propose a solution to treat TWF more like THF in terms of lag mitigation.

My solution is, sure, go ahead- let the combat assocaited with TWF change to that mechanism, as long as their DPS isnt altered, and let THF and their glancing blows be.

Let the attack speed modifiers stay the way they are, THF is no threat to on-hit process lag as long as TWF is recognized in the same fashion. TWF'ers are clearly happier with the way they are now than with the proposed solution, and those that have intimately adapted THF as a playstyle are happier with it being untouched as well.


I think what you said here is correct, however, everyone who posts about twtching seems to not want to directly mention that you can increase your attack animation speed, which increases DPS.

Remember spaz attacking a few years ago?

This is why we now have a progressive attack chain. I dont see this nerf to THF attack while moving as being much different.

[Daggaz]

Twitch fighting aside, I was dismayed when I saw the proposed idea/nerf about no glancing attacks while moving. The only time I ever stand completely still when fighting is for portal beating (still havent gotten the hang of twitching). In actual battles, constant movement is an integral part of the whole game.

-avoiding flanks
-moving into flanks
-following highly mobile mobs (like ALL of them except the animals, pretty much)
-keeping other characters in view (im a battle cleric)
-avoiding special attacks (cuz honestly, who actually shieldblocks except the turtles, who arent attacking anyhow)
-dodging ranged attacks
-switching to optimal targets (stunned opponents, spreading para love, etc)
-using corners/doors etc to advantage
-"leading" enemies into a certain spot
-kiting thru blade barrier while still attacking

And what about the supposed love given to sword and board wielders of bastard swords and dwarven war axes? Extra glancing blows, am I _ever_ actually going to see those? Not with these changes because of course I am still going to be moving around most of the time.

Not to mention, standing still is not just stupid tactics, its boring. BORING BORING BORING!! TURBINE ITS BORING!!!

I wont drop the game if they make this change.. but I will drop my THF feat chain. I think I will just take 3x toughness instead so I can sit at 650 hps. Why not. but i would prefer more action..

[Thrudh]

You have even stated in the past that the THF combat style is all about being able to move and attack multiple targets at the same time in order to draw aggro and damage multiple mobs.

I never understood why Shade harps on that point... He has Cleave, and barbarians get intimidate as a class skill... AOE aggro is not hard for a barbarian...

He makes that multiple target aggro comment to disguise that what he really uses twitch for... Maximizing DPS on a single target.

[Thrudh]

Why are you people argueing over twitch attack? Its a choice. You lose to-hit as a result of doing it, you dont want to lsoe to hit? You need to invest into feats to get rid of it. Its perfectly balanced.

Umm.. except everyone hits everything on a 2 in this game, even when moving, so no, it's not "perfectly balanced".


You don't like it? Its hard on your fingers? You don't have to use it, no one will look at you as a newb if you don't adapt an optional playstyle such as moving while attacking "commonly called twitching."

We've got vets on these boards right now who look upon non-twitchers as "bad players"


Let the attack speed modifiers stay the way they are, THF is no threat to on-hit process lag as long as TWF is recognized in the same fashion. TWF'ers are clearly happier with the way they are now than with the proposed solution, and those that have intimately adapted THF as a playstyle are happier with it being untouched as well.

Even as I rail against twitching... I'm perfectly okay with the devs leaving combat alone and just removing the physics detection from the off-hand in TWF... I think one step at a time is much better way to troubleshoot a system.

[Daggaz]

I never understood why Shade harps on that point... He has Cleave, and barbarians get intimidate as a class skill... AOE aggro is not hard for a barbarian...

He makes that multiple target aggro comment to disguise that what he really uses twitch for... Maximizing DPS on a single target.

Come on. Shade is more than vocal enough about twitch = max DPS. Everybody knows this. Forum n00bs learn this within a day of hitting the boards. He has famous threads that are practically stickied that anounce this in the title. If he wants to argue alterior motives, so be it, but its hardly a "disguise."

At any rate, making it into some kind of personal pro-Shade/anti-Shade argument subtracts from the actual debate, which Shade and his choice of tactics have no direct control over. Like the rest of us, he is merely a player. Lets just keep the thread to the topic at hand: THF glancing attack changes, how will it effect the current game (twitch fighting included), is it good or bad, why?

[Chai]

Come on. Shade is more than vocal enough about twitch = max DPS. Everybody knows this. Forum n00bs learn this within a day of hitting the boards. He has famous threads that are practically stickied that anounce this in the title. If he wants to argue alterior motives, so be it, but its hardly a "disguise."

At any rate, making it into some kind of personal pro-Shade/anti-Shade argument subtracts from the actual debate, which Shade and his choice of tactics have no direct control over. Like the rest of us, he is merely a player. Lets just keep the thread to the topic at hand: THF glancing attack changes, how will it effect the current game (twitch fighting included), is it good or bad, why?

No, its not personal, in fact I agree with him on most things, but when people are so hung up on tangible proof, the only tangible proof I really need is the fact that it is being nerfed, and for no other particular reason. Conjecture? Yes, but its a pretty safe one at that. See: spaz attacking and progressive attack chains. We have been through all this before. :D

Twitching will still be max single target DPS for a THF, it just takes a serious hit to multiple target DPS. If you have 5 mobs in a doorway, a twitching THF cant be paralleled in melee. With the loss of glancing when moving, twitch in that situation will hit one mob, while standing still and using the combat animation will hit one mob and glance the others, complete with effects etc. When the targeted mob drops, the others will already have serious HP loss. Now a THF style toon will have to stand still and use the built in combat animation to make this happen in these situations, and this is a serious loss of situational DPS, which THF toons are basically famous for.

The sacrificing AB while twitching arguement is a non arguement, as even in epic content, a well enough geared and built toon who even belongs in epic content hits on a 2 or better save for maybe some VERY specific situations. This style wouldnt be used as much, and would be a mere footnote, if sacrificing AB had any impact whatsoever. The fact that you can twitch on epic vellah and gain DPS is exactly what I am talking about.

[Daggaz]

No, its not personal, in fact I agree with him on most things, but when people are so hung up on tangible proof, the only tangible proof I really need is the fact that it is being nerfed, and for no other particular reason. Conjecture? Yes, but its a pretty safe one at that. See: spaz attacking and progressive attack chains. We have been through all this before. :D

Twitching will still be max single target DPS for a THF, it just takes a serious hit to multiple target DPS. If you have 5 mobs in a doorway, a twitching THF cant be paralleled in melee. With the loss of glancing when moving, twitch in that situation will hit one mob, while standing still and using the combat animation will hit one mob and glance the others, complete with effects etc. When the targeted mob drops, the others will already have serious HP loss. Now a THF style toon will have to stand still and use the built in combat animation to make this happen in these situations, and this is a serious loss of situational DPS, which THF toons are basically famous for.

The sacrificing AB while twitching arguement is a non arguement, as even in epic content, a well enough geared and built toon who even belongs in epic content hits on a 2 or better save for maybe some VERY specific situations. This style wouldnt be used as much, and would be a mere footnote, if sacrificing AB had any impact whatsoever. The fact that you can twitch on epic vellah and gain DPS is exactly what I am talking about.

See, when you make your case without using the word "shade," it just seems a lot more substantial and to the point. I hope they dont nerf glancing blows, for the same reasons you bring up here, among others, tho Im not entirely sure now whether you are arguing for or against it.. I could read the above both ways. I hope when I block a door with my S+B or two-handing cleric and swing my axe, that some of the baddies behind the main guy are going to be hit as well, because I know they are all going to be smacking me around without too much trouble, even when I am moving. Because there is no AC after lvl ten for me. Not to mention, glancing blows give my character more room to be useful in a group, as I can attach weapon procs to them.

[Cetus]

You guys realize that barbarians get to remove their 3 THF feat chain and substitute them for toughness. Fighters such as myself, have incorporated them as CLASS FEATS. This slot does not compete with toughness feats, which is in favor of barbarians to increase their defenses wrt fighters even more. What else am I to take that is as useful as toughness to a barb instead of these THF feats. This is not balanced between melee classes.

[Cetus]

Umm.. except everyone hits everything on a 2 in this game, even when moving, so no, it's not "perfectly balanced".



We've got vets on these boards right now who look upon non-twitchers as "bad players"



Even as I rail against twitching... I'm perfectly okay with the devs leaving combat alone and just removing the physics detection from the off-hand in TWF... I think one step at a time is much better way to troubleshoot a system.

If you aren't a kensai fighter and don't have an epic sos, chances are you have experienced some to hit issues in the game while twitching at some point, epic packmasters in the desert, wizard king, named minotaur in epic von1 (if you chose to fight him)..etc. The penalty exists, not saying that working our way around it isnt achievable, since most of us did anyway- but to the new or average player who isn't all geared out, twitching becomes a tradeoff in that department.

Just because veterans or experienced players such as the ones providing input in these boards have so intimately adapted it, does not mean that everyone will look down upon a melee who doesn't twitch. Again, its a playing preference.

You want to minimize the effectiveness of twitching? Improve the mobs AI instead, and make it more difficult for us to adapt, hence making those who master it even more skillful of a player- but in no way shape or form fiddle with our DPS.

I am going through subsequent TR's (thinking about completionist) to finish off my fighter, this news is atrocious in the face of those such as myself who have meticulously planned the building of his character to every detail, and then BOOM remove a very internal essence of the combat style that has been chosen.

Not exactly what I call good news.

[Kintro]

In addition to serious concern about the reduction in effectiveness and enjoyment factor of THF, I also wonder just how much this will address the issue.

My experience has been that lag has been an issue during specific times and quests. (For example, shroud parts 4 and 5, during peak play hours). Are moving glancing blows really the problem here?


It might help depending how things work now and how Turbine might change them in the future.

It's been said that calculating hits takes complicated maths and is one of the causes of lag. It's also true that the main areas we have problems with lag are ones where targets don't move very much (Shroud part 1/4/5, ToD).

Turbine could theoretically add a check to see if the attacker moved, if they didn't then check if the enemies they hit last round moved. Targets which didn't move either get passed straight to damage calculations skipping the complex hit calculations.

Discouraging moving when fighting in these situations would make such a change more effective.

Obviously this is all speculation and I have no clue what Turbine plans or how things even work currently.

[Chai]

See, when you make your case without using the word "shade," it just seems a lot more substantial and to the point. I hope they dont nerf glancing blows, for the same reasons you bring up here, among others, tho Im not entirely sure now whether you are arguing for or against it.. I could read the above both ways. I hope when I block a door with my S+B or two-handing cleric and swing my axe, that some of the baddies behind the main guy are going to be hit as well, because I know they are all going to be smacking me around without too much trouble, even when I am moving. Because there is no AC after lvl ten for me. Not to mention, glancing blows give my character more room to be useful in a group, as I can attach weapon procs to them.

I only really replied to something he directly said, and am not using his name in every sentence. I actually agree with what he says on most things. People are gravitating to using him as an example and directing comments at him because he champions the THF playstyle on the boards and shamelessly self promotes it.

I am arguing against the nerf instinctively, based on what Ive seen and heard so far, but am reserving final judgement for when I get to play it out on the test server. The reason why I am against this is because it takes alot away from THF signature combat style. This, and standing in one place and attacking is boring. Moving while attacking is one of the things that sets this game apart from other MMOS like WOW or EQ where you basically do static damage while standing in the same spot. I can write a macro that does this for me, where I cant do so for my THF combat style in DDO. If they REALLY want to nerf twitching (if this really is the case for the nerf) there are other ways to do this.

I will point out bad resoning on the other side though, like the AB sacrifice arguement, which has no impact, and does nothing to balance the fact that someone can increase the attack animation speed with no real drawbacks through twitching. Yeah there are situations where there is an impact, but when I see videos where people are twitch attacking epic raid bosses and not missing, I dont call -4 to hit for a decent increase in DPS a "balanced trade off." Thats like calling power attack a "balanced trade off" when people hit with roll of a 2 or higher with it on all the time anyhow, and they only miss on a 1 due to the house rule. People even trade 11 AB for 22 damage, and still hit on a 2 or better, and have found a way to do so by taking 4 more AB away to move while attacking to increase the animation speed.

[Chai]

You guys realize that barbarians get to remove their 3 THF feat chain and substitute them for toughness. Fighters such as myself, have incorporated them as CLASS FEATS. This slot does not compete with toughness feats, which is in favor of barbarians to increase their defenses wrt fighters even more. What else am I to take that is as useful as toughness to a barb instead of these THF feats. This is not balanced between melee classes.


~70 hp is ~one hit at epic level. If a barb loses all those feats, they are sacrificing dps at all times, and not just when moving. I wont lose my feats due to the nerf. I will have to alter my playstyle and twitch when its appropriate, which is single target DPS.

[Cetus]

I am arguing against it instinctively, based on what Ive seen and heard so far, but am reserving final judgement for when I get to play it out on the test server. The reason why I am against this is because it takes alot away from THF signature combat style. This, and standing in one place and attacking is boring. Moving while attacking is one of the things that sets this game apart from other MMOS like WOW or EQ where you basically do static damage while standing in the same spot. I can write a macro that does this for me, where I cant do so for my THF combat style in DDO. If they REALLY want to nerf twitching (if this really is the case for the nerf) there are other ways to do this.

I will point out bad resoning on the other side though, like the AB sacrifice arguement, which has no impact, and does nothing to balance the fact that someone can increase the attack animation speed with no real drawbacks through twitching.

It is not bad reasoning, believe me I have tested the twitching Attack deficit with different levels of minimal to moderate to high end gear especially in epic content. You very much see the difference. I am a max dps kensai fighter wielding an epic sos and I still see misses while twitching If I remove several to hit bonuses such as the kensai set, gh, and all rages. The ac of some mobs is simply in the high 50's low 60's. Very easy to get by with standard gear, but again, de-gearing urself to a moderate level is proven to reveal the drawbacks of twitching on ur to-hit--> which is what non-vets have to deal with until they acquire the gear needed to eliminate the drawback on twitching.

But if you have everything in the world and have mastered this game, things are SUPPOSED to be easier, hence the twitching efficiency is part of it. It is balanced enough to not touch it. You wanna make it harder? As if said, improve the mobs AI in a way where the mob would be harder to twitch at (speculating).

[Cetus]

~70 hp is ~one hit at epic level. If a barb loses all those feats, they are sacrificing dps at all times, and not just when moving. I wont lose my feats due to the nerf. I will have to alter my playstyle and twitch when its appropriate, which is single target DPS.

I will go through the grinds of TR'ing barbarian for 10hp, let alone 70.

Your reasoning is faulty in the sense that its 1 epic mob hit. Its 1 extra hit you can absorb, and that makes all the difference.

with regards to the feats, I am always moving when in combat.
Its quite boring to sit there and autoattack because I'm getting glances.

Read the description of the GTHF feat, it explicitly states glances while moving, that was its original purpose- and should not be changed for anything in the world.

[Shade]

has Cleave, and barbarians get intimidate as a class skill... AOE aggro is not hard for a barbarian...

He makes that multiple target aggro comment to disguise that what he really uses twitch for... Maximizing DPS on a single target.

I can tell your a big fan, and thats great. I appreciate the support.

But really my loyal fan, you need to understand that cleave is ONE OF THE WORST FEATS IN THE GAME. Anyone who uses cleave at the endgame is absolutely terrible at the game. Cleave in no way shape or form will ever speed up anything, not dps, not agro generation, not anything. Cleave with THF is EXTREMELY SLOW and thus - useless.

The fact Berserkers have to take cleave is a penalty, not a benefit. These are simple facts.

Far as disguising anything. I do not. If I cared to disguise what I believe makes the game fun, why would I make a video demonstrating and guide explaining to players - and of-course the devs exactly how to do it, and why it's useful?
I stay as blatantly honest and direct on this subject as I ever would, because I know this is a fun part of the game, and part of the game that is definitely here to will stay.

I'll repeat it for those who couldn't read it the first time due to there love for me:
If this change gets implemented - Stepping attack will still be a good boost to dps.

If it was a nerf, why wouldn't they go all the way and simply make that not so? Because they aren't nerfing it, and won't.

If anyone's disguising anything, it you disguising your opinion on the subject, you say nothing about it - all you talk about is me. And I get that you like me. But this not a Shade fan club thread. There's already lots of those on the forum.

[Chai]

I will go through the grinds of TR'ing barbarian for 10hp, let alone 70.

Your reasoning is faulty in the sense that its 1 epic mob hit. Its 1 extra hit you can absorb, and that makes all the difference.

with regards to the feats, I am always moving when in combat.
Its quite boring to sit there and autoattack because I'm getting glances.

Read the description of the GTHF feat, it explicitly states glances while moving, that was its original purpose- and should not be changed for anything in the world.

Then you are the minority, far to the right of the decimal point in terms of percentage. 10 hp? for a nice slow steamroll through 20 levels with more xp needed per level? How many other people do you believe will do this? Consider all players in the game before you answer this question. I certainly dont consider an 825 hp barbarian less worthy than an 835 hp barbarian.

I clearly understand the purpose and original intent of the GTHF feat, and if you read my posts, you will see that instinctively I disagree with the nerf, due to this very fact. I even talked about moving in combat setting this game apart from other games where you are required to stand inplace for max DPS, as well.

Also, if you have 3 toughness feats and you drop the GTHF line, your loss in dps will be such that you have to absorb more than one hit. Those 70 hp dont compare to the dps you would lose. And yes, after the nerf you WILL be standing still while fighting multiple mobs or you WILL be losing DPS. Sucks, and I dont agree with it, but its the truth.

I am still waiting until we can test it before I join all the collective moaning about results we havent even seen yet.

[Chai]

If it was a nerf, why wouldn't they go all the way and simply make that not so? Because they aren't nerfing it, and won't.



How would it be even possible go about nerfing stepping attack to the point where it provides less DPS than standing attack using the default animation? The conditional statement is: If you increase attack animation speed and still hit on a 2 or higher you increase DPS. They would have to make the default animation ALWAYS play through regardless of stepping or not to completely nerf it out of the game.

This "nerf" will highly impact DPS when attacking multiple mobs, as now moving + attacking will only hit one of them in a pile with no glances, which means no "twitch attack" in bottleneck situations if you want to damage more than one mob at a time. This is removing one of the barbarian's strengths, as well as other THF builds. It allows them to overpower multiple lesser foes jammed into a tight space. Heck, I even used this + killzone style strat during leveling before DA messed that all up.

[Thrudh]

I will go through the grinds of TR'ing barbarian for 10hp, let alone 70.

Really? Then we're in completely different worlds and it's hard to compare notes... Anyone who TRs a barbarian more than once, grinding out another 4.2 million exp (or whatever it is) for an extra 10 hps... well, I don't what to say...

You're definitely an outlier on the bell curve graph of obsessed DDO players...

[Thrudh]

Then you are the minority, far to the right of the decimal point in terms of percentage. 10 hp? for a nice slow steamroll through 20 levels with more xp needed per level? How many other people do you believe will do this? Consider all players in the game before you answer this question. I certainly dont consider an 825 hp barbarian less worthy than an 835 hp barbarian.

Heh, I responded before I read this... Nice that we both put him in the 0.0001% of players who would actually care about 10 extra hps on a BARBARIAN (not like you're lacking for hps already)

[BlackSteel]

anyone else notice that in the middle of the combat post its mentioned that THF will be re-evaluated later on behave similarly to TWF? (as in a % chance to proc on every hit, and not on certain attacks) with the right %, the change wouldnt be a nerf at all really.

[Khellendros13]

anyone else notice that in the middle of the combat post its mentioned that THF will be re-evaluated later on behave similarly to TWF? (as in a % chance to proc on every hit, and not on certain attacks) with the right %, the change wouldnt be a nerf at all really.

I hope Eladrin comes back ASAP to update his OP with all his comments, because 100+ pages is not something I will be trawling through for a few hours.

Shade, I respect your knowledge and experience with the game and especially THF/Barbarians, but how is losing glancing blows while "step attacking" NOT a nerf to having them while "step attacking"?

Even if it is 30-40 dmg every few hits, that is still a loss of DPS from what I can see. Am I missing something?

On a similar note, it would of been nice to have a working WF THF line before making this change.

[Cetus]

Heh its funny how people are placing me in the minority because I'll tr for 10 hp but...

Once you reach a point of saturation on your character with absolutely no way to improve him, you start delving into tr zones if it means you can give him something else. After 4 years of playing with numbers, performing tests, and tweaking and reworking the character- whats another 10 day grind gonna do...

Maximum damage output characters with a preferred playstyle such as shade and myself have no ac and no evasion to mitigate incoming damage. these builds will get hit back because they are meant to deal with aggro, your healthbar and dr are the only lines of defense (the latter applies moreso to barbs, fighters get dr solely as a function of gear, so they depend more on hp as offensive builds).

Anyone who has adapted THF as their chosen playstyle and have perfected it need no further explanation as to why shade is 100% correct in his previous post. You will still get more dps out of twitching even with the glancing blow nerf installed, and I will drop the GTHF feat because it will no longer be useful to me. Problem is barbs get the hp in return, fighters do not. Both of our glances have been taken away, but the barb has risen in his defenses- its just not a fair split in my eyes.

[Monkey_Archer]

Stepping attack will still be a good boost to dps.


A few numbers to look at:

Barbarian w/ min 2 greataxe:

90 base hits
7 holy
3.5 elemental
2.5 slicing
21 vicious
---
124 damage hits

540 base crit (x6)
7 holy
3.5 elemental
2.5 slicing
21 vicious
22 burst
---
595 damage crits

40 base glancing blows
21 vicious
---
61 damage glancing blows


(124 x 17 hits) + (595 x 2 crits) / 20 swings = 164.9 average damage per swing
61 x 9.5 hits / 20 swings = 29 average glancing blow per swing

29 / 164.9 = 17.6% of your dps while twitching or moving


So given that twitch attacking is only a roughly 20% increase in attack speed, I dont think twitching will increase dps much at all (it could possibly even lower dps for barbs)

[Monkey_Archer]

So back to my point...

Assuming this nerf somehow balances TWF an THF autoattack dps to be roughly equal...
and the change to glancing blows makes twitch attack roughly equal to autoattack dps...

Why, why, why would a moving THF do ~17% less dps then a moving TWF? :rolleyes:

[krud]

you do realize the proposed changes nerf thf dps while moving, regardless of whether or not you're "twitching"
The proposed nerf to twitch THF is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Get rid of the twitch exploit, yes by all means, but please do not remove glancing blows while on the move. Stationary combat is boring.

[Aaxeyu]

So back to my point...

Assuming this nerf somehow balances TWF an THF autoattack dps to be roughly equal...
and the change to glancing blows makes twitch attack roughly equal to autoattack dps...

Why, why, why would a moving THF do ~17% less dps then a moving TWF? :rolleyes:

It's not that unreasonable tbh.
If TWF and THF autoattack would be equal vs single target, there would be no point in playing TWF.
Making TWF better when you move and THF better against packs seems pretty fair to me.

[Monkey_Archer]

It's not that unreasonable tbh.
If TWF and THF autoattack would be equal vs single target, there would be no point in playing TWF.
Making TWF better when you move and THF better against packs seems pretty fair to me.

Ok, fair point.

On that point, the current TWF nerf numbers (80% offhand with GTWF) still has the average TWF significantly higher single target dps then THF.
How do you propose THF single target gets buffed? or should TWF be nerfed back to the original numbers? (55% offhand)

[Aaxeyu]

Ok, fair point.

On that point, the current TWF nerf numbers (80% offhand with GTWF) still has the average TWF significantly higher single target dps then THF.
How do you propose THF single target gets buffed? or should TWF be nerfed back to the original numbers? (55% offhand)

Boosting THF could be done by giving 2X damage bonus from more things than just PA and strength (1.5X).

I don't know how much ahead TWF is, so I dunno if that would be enough or even too much.

[Monkey_Archer]

Boosting THF could be done by giving 2X damage bonus from more things than just PA and strength (1.5X).

I don't know how much ahead TWF is, so I dunno if that would be enough or even too much.

Im guessing that would work for the average THF (high strength barbs would likely gain too much)... problem is that would be a huge boost to THFs using eSOS... and i dont think they really need a boost.

IMO, the style advantages should remain roughly how they are now. TWF should do more single target dps, THF should be more (or equal) while moving (aka dont nerf glancing blows)

[Scraap]

Ok, fair point.

On that point, the current TWF nerf numbers (80% offhand with GTWF) still has the average TWF significantly higher single target dps then THF.
How do you propose THF single target gets buffed? or should TWF be nerfed back to the original numbers? (55% offhand)

Could see the notion of upping the proc-rate for double-strikes per each feat in the THF line fit the notion, if the core idea is smacking someone with the big stick hard enough to catch others in the way.

[Gercho]

I think that before discussing how things should be changed, we need to agree what should be the goals for twf and thf...

As i see it, twf needs more investment than thf so it should have some advantages, they cant be totally balanced.

So, what i think:

-Twf should be higher single target dps (no matter if moving or standing)
-Thf should be higher against multiple targets
-Twitching against single stationary target shouldnt increase DPS, but moving for strategic combat shouldnt be penalized

If we can agree on those 3 points, we need to agree on how much better twf should be against single target, and then we can start discussing which changes (if any) need to be implemented...

[Consumer]

I think that before discussing how things should be changed, we need to agree what should be the goals for twf and thf...

As i see it, twf needs more investment than thf so it should have some advantages, they cant be totally balanced.

So, what i think:

-Twf should be higher single target dps (no matter if moving or standing)
-Thf should be higher against multiple targets
-Twitching against single stationary target shouldnt increase DPS, but moving for strategic combat shouldnt be penalized

If we can agree on those 3 points, we need to agree on how much better twf should be against single target, and then we can start discussing which changes (if any) need to be implemented...

I can't agree on the last one but I can on the other 2.

TWF would be better if weapons equivilent to the Epic SoS were made, otherwise its the weapon thats the problem not the DPS style.

People will scream no more OP weapons and yet they want balance and this is the easiest way to provide it (not the best).

[SquelchHU]

If the original post is to be believed, then the simple act of determining if a weapon actually "touched" the target is causing lag. Checking every 0.15 seconds in the case of a "stationary" TWF.

Not every 0.15 seconds. Mainhand, then offhand 0.15 seconds later. There's a difference. Checking every 0.15 seconds would mean you'd swing 400 times per minute. No one attacks that quickly.

And yes, that is a lot of calculations. Though I think you're onto something with the THF thing (or they just want you to stand still and auto attack).

[Aesop]

Personally...

and I'm a little behind the times on twitching I must admitt... but based no the numbers I've seen twitching does do ... a lot... maybe too much infact.


Its not that I don't appreciate that twitching is an "art" and that it is difficult at first to master (I'm sure it is), but I'm also fairly sure that the difference between Twitch and non twitch shouldn't be so much that balancing the style becomes difficult.


Personally instead of the current proposed suggestion I'd perfer to have the second attack in the chain slowed down slightly and have the third and fourth attack sped up... Now of course I'm not sure that's possible... It just seems the way to go to me. I mean a 10% bump for twitch skills would be kinda cool option... but it looks closer to 20-25% and that's too much.



Also since they are talking about Glancing Blows moving to a system similar to the proposed TWF system... then maybe they should expand the idea out a little


Make movement part of the equation. They already do it with Attack rolls why not piggy back that with Proc Chance as well.


So say a Two Handed Weapon with no Feats has a Glancing Blow Proc chance of

No Feat: 20%
THF: 40%
ITHF: 60%
GTHF: 80%

FB1: +10%
FB2: +10%
FB3: DS +10%

Ken1: +10%
Ken2: +10%
Ken3: DS +10%

Barb Cap: +5%
Ftr Cap: +5%

WF Great Weapon1: +5%
WF Great Weapon2: +5%
WF Great Weapon3: +5%

Moving: -20%


addtionally you could have attack chain itself affect the Proc rate (similar could be done with TWF as well)

where the attack sequence is something like

0/0/5/10 (well I think it used to be that way anyway)... or is it 0/5/10/10... maybe that one


so lets say 0/5/10/10

make the Proc rate move along those that

-10%/0/+10%/+20%...

or for less benefit

-10/-5/0/+5 or some such



so a Pure WF Barb with maxed lines would have (assuming the first)

%110/120/130/140

meaning they'd have a glancing blow on every hit

while moving they'd have

90/100

Meaning they'd possibly lose a Glancing Blow on the first swing but get one on the other...


Meanwhile

a something like a Human Defender with the full THF line would have

70/80/90/100

though while moving they'donly have
50/60

they'd still get some Glancing blows (over half their attacks) but it is reduced from somone that has dedicated effort to it.


Does that seem reasonable?


you could also have Spring Attack reduce movement penalties for GB and OH attacks perhaps


Aesop

[Ethias]

1) How big a difference are we talking, optimally, between THF and TWF? 5%? 10%? Should this depend on STWF? This is a hard thing to quantify.
2) Adding more doublestrikes to THF sounds like an awesome idea, and would be nice compensation if the glancing blow nerf sticks with it.
3) Should balance considerations really consider the current state of ESoS?

[rjedi]

Sorry, but I have not read Everything with u5 but while complaining abput nerfs might get us somewhere, probably no where...
with the nerfs, what will be the top dps for u5?

Will the ranger18/monk2 using longswords in wind stance be fastest?

[Aesop]

1) How big a difference are we talking, optimally, between THF and TWF? 5%? 10%? Should this depend on STWF? This is a hard thing to quantify.
2) Adding more doublestrikes to THF sounds like an awesome idea, and would be nice compensation if the glancing blow nerf sticks with it.
3) Should balance considerations really consider the current state of ESoS?

Adding More DS to THF would be a mistake imo.

honestly DS is an opportunity to make Single Weapon combat viable. A Duelist with nothing in the off hand would have a chance if they added in a DS benefit line for Single Weapon ...

A_D mentions a feat Einhander

that could be expanded out to

Einhander 20% DS for fighting Single Weapon nothing off hand
Improved Einhander 30% DS for fighting Single Weapon nothing off hand
Greater Einhander 40% DS for fighting Single Weapon nothing off hand

suddenly you'd have a possible reason to actually not fight with Two Weapons or a THW

give Weapon Finesse a +10% bonus with Light Weapons and you've got a style option similar to a Swashbuckler



Also STWF should not be. At all. Its like being paid with our own coin and would cause more problems than it would solve. Add in a Movmenet Penalty for TWF (which SPring Attack reduces) and add in Modifiers based on Sequence like in a previous post I made.

Aesop

[Cetus]

1) How big a difference are we talking, optimally, between THF and TWF? 5%? 10%? Should this depend on STWF? This is a hard thing to quantify.
2) Adding more doublestrikes to THF sounds like an awesome idea, and would be nice compensation if the glancing blow nerf sticks with it.
3) Should balance considerations really consider the current state of ESoS?

I am a strong proponent of leaving the Epic SoS out of the discussion. The weapon is not overpowered, its as powerful as an EPIC weapon is supposed to be. Minimal DR bypassing capabilities and increasing uselessness with the fortification of your target. The weapon is fine the way it is.

I also strongly disagree that TWF should deal more dps to a raid boss than a THF. You are standing there with a huge AXE or SWORD hacking away at your target, how can two khopeshes deal more damage than getting dented in by a mean double bladed AXE the size of your body, if you wanna talk how things should be realistically.

For the higher demand of TWF, I believe TWF'ers should instead be granted extra weapon effect procs such as damage guards, vorpal, disruptor, burst and blast damage..etc.

But front number damage output should not be ruled by TWF, this multiple target argument for THF is not sufficient to make them a dps build if they lose it against a raid boss- If you are surrounded by a buncha orthons and devils, your 40ish glancing blows arent justifying your need to turn and individually take care of em.

Understand also, the feats are analogous to each other in importance, your glancing blows proc on your selected target, thats the extra dps that the feats hand you for a THF- much equal to how the TWF feats grant a couple extra attacks, they are EQUALLY important to each fighting style. The only other requirement TWF'ers have is the dex requirement really that they are at a loss at. But ideally speaking, if you are a 36 point build with a +4 dex tome, you can essentially only realocate 1 build point to satisfy the 17 dex, euqalling you out in terms of str and con to any other THF (assuming you are even).

Also, the extra weapon slot is not something a THF is using for something else, thats a dumb argument. A THF has 1 slot for a weapon, A TWF has 2 slots for 2 weapons, it sounds like a THF has 1 slot for a weapon and 1 more free slot for w/e else from what I'm reading.

Only valid argument is that they need to grind extra ingredients to create a second weapon, that I agree. But If you give the bonus to damage procs such as lightning and burst damage, It's sufficient to balance the classes, but making them deal more front number damage than a THF is rediculous.

[Monkey_Archer]

I am a strong proponent of leaving the Epic SoS out of the discussion.

I disagree. Using the eSOS accentuates the argument.

Just run the numbers THF using eSOS vs TWF using dual eSOS equivalents (+10 2d8, 15-20x4)

The TWF does so much higher dps then THF (twitch or not) that its not even close to being funny. Well it kinda is :D

[Aesop]

Also, the extra weapon slot is not something a THF is using for something else, thats a dumb argument. A THF has 1 slot for a weapon, A TWF has 2 slots for 2 weapons, it sounds like a THF has 1 slot for a weapon and 1 more free slot for w/e else from what I'm reading.
.

I've always thought that Bucklers should be able to be equiped by a THF and impliment the feat Improved Buckler Defense

give THF back their slot

Aesop

[Ethias]

Adding More DS to THF would be a mistake imo.

honestly DS is an opportunity to make Single Weapon combat viable. A Duelist with nothing in the off hand would have a chance if they added in a DS benefit line for Single Weapon ...

A_D mentions a feat Einhander

that could be expanded out to

Einhander 20% DS for fighting Single Weapon nothing off hand
Improved Einhander 30% DS for fighting Single Weapon nothing off hand
Greater Einhander 40% DS for fighting Single Weapon nothing off hand

suddenly you'd have a possible reason to actually not fight with Two Weapons or a THW

give Weapon Finesse a +10% bonus with Light Weapons and you've got a style option similar to a Swashbuckler



Also STWF should not be. At all. Its like being paid with our own coin and would cause more problems than it would solve. Add in a Movmenet Penalty for TWF (which SPring Attack reduces) and add in Modifiers based on Sequence like in a previous post I made.

Aesop


I do not think giving some amount of double strike chance to 2hers would make it impossible for a duelist/swashbuckler character type at all.

[Winteris]

I think that before discussing how things should be changed, we need to agree what should be the goals for twf and thf...

As i see it, twf needs more investment than thf so it should have some advantages, they cant be totally balanced.



that "investments" give u much more than ability to get all twf feats:
- more weapons means more effects, anyone can show me a TH weapon with trip and stun bonuses ?
- 17 dex base is good even for chars w/o evasion, many spells have half damage on save
- higher dex means better to-hit with bows, half of population have rgr lvl 6 or more, its really viable option to manyshoot sometimes

pls, that argument with investments is stupid, stop using it

As i suggested in one and only thread that we can have for feedback, the solution is pump-up AC of mobs, that will penalize twitching and nerf twf somehow, if done correctly it would mean 10 percent nerf for twf and 20% for twitched THF (at least on barbs, fighters probably can take spring attack chain somehow), it would also reduce needed calculations, but it seems that it is too simple...

[Cetus]

There is no Epic SoS equivalent for TWF'ers. Game balance.

[Gercho]

I also strongly disagree that TWF should deal more dps to a raid boss than a THF. You are standing there with a huge AXE or SWORD hacking away at your target, how can two khopeshes deal more damage than getting dented in by a mean double bladed AXE the size of your body, if you wanna talk how things should be realistically.


Somehow you have to give some benefit for extra grinding and higher stat requirement otherwise why would someone go twf?



For the higher demand of TWF, I believe TWF'ers should instead be granted extra weapon effect procs such as damage guards, vorpal, disruptor, burst and blast damage..etc.

That wont be enough for people to go twf if they do less or equal damage than THF, i guarantee that.



The only other requirement TWF'ers have is the dex requirement really that they are at a loss at. But ideally speaking, if you are a 36 point build with a +4 dex tome, you can essentially only realocate 1 build point to satisfy the 17 dex, euqalling you out in terms of str and con to any other THF (assuming you are even).

Lol, you mean for the 0.0001% of chars that are 36 point builds and have +4 dex tomes? even in that case, a thf can start with dex 8 so its 5 more points needed for twf... for 99% of the chars, its more, and for paladins that need high cha aswell is a lot of sacrifice that makes them start with con 12 most of the time...



Also, the extra weapon slot is not something a THF is using for something else, thats a dumb argument. A THF has 1 slot for a weapon, A TWF has 2 slots for 2 weapons, it sounds like a THF has 1 slot for a weapon and 1 more free slot for w/e else from what I'm reading.

Only valid argument is that they need to grind extra ingredients to create a second weapon, that I agree. But If you give the bonus to damage procs such as lightning and burst damage, It's sufficient to balance the classes, but making them deal more front number damage than a THF is rediculous.

Its the grinding not the slot wich matters, they need to grind extra ingredients, and epic grinding can be much worse, depending on the module, for example, epic SOS is relatively easier to get than just one epic chaos blade, and you would need 2 for twf...

If you give more damage against a raid boss to THF no dps char will play twf, the high procs wont justify it, no matter what...

[Consumer]

I disagree. Using the eSOS accentuates the argument.

Just run the numbers THF using eSOS vs TWF using dual eSOS equivalents (+10 2d8, 15-20x4)

The TWF does so much higher dps then THF (twitch or not) that its not even close to being funny. Well it kinda is :D

I did just that for the giggles, the numbers are after the update 5 changes.

Epic Sos pure Fighter - 677.84 DPS
TWF equivalent - 734.09 DPS

[Gercho]

that "investments" give u much more than ability to get all twf feats:
- more weapons means more effects, anyone can show me a TH weapon with trip and stun bonuses ?
- 17 dex base is good even for chars w/o evasion, many spells have half damage on save
- higher dex means better to-hit with bows, half of population have rgr lvl 6 or more, its really viable option to manyshoot sometimes

Lol, this is funny, the fact is, you can get high dex with a thf if you want, but you cant dump dex with a twf if you think the benefits are not enough for the investment of dex, and saying that half the population has 6 lvls of ranger it disqualifies any other argument you can make...




pls, that argument with investments is stupid, stop using it

no more comments needed




As i suggested in one and only thread that we can have for feedback, the solution is pump-up AC of mobs, that will penalize twitching and nerf twf somehow, if done correctly it would mean 10 percent nerf for twf and 20% for twitched THF (at least on barbs, fighters probably can take spring attack chain somehow), it would also reduce needed calculations, but it seems that it is too simple...
That will favor barbarians (extremely high str) and fighters (a lot of ways to increase their to hit) even more and penalize rangers, rogues, monks, paladins and any other odd melee build like arcane melee battle clerics or the like.

[Cetus]

I did just that for the giggles, the numbers are after the update 5 changes.

Epic Sos pure Fighter - 677.84 DPS
TWF equivalent - 734.09 DPS

So...63 more damage per second with TWO epic SoS equivalents, that is funny =]

Im probably not laughing at the same thing you guys are however :)

[Aesop]

I do not think giving some amount of double strike chance to 2hers would make it impossible for a duelist/swashbuckler character type at all.

It would reduce the relative effectiveness of that style character and thus make it once more a moot idea. Look at it this way for a sec.


THF gets GB say on 75% of his attacks and DS on 25% of his attacks


The Einhander gets not GB but gets DS on 50% of his attacks


THF do significantly more damage per hit than the Einhander and has similar # or attacks in a combat plus has Glancing Blows... where is the point for the Einhander then?


you may say well just up the DS% for Einhander... well then they invade the space of TWF who would have something like 100% OH and 10% DS. OH has less damage than the Einhander main attacks but OH attacks still proc effects as well.


Instead keep the DS for everyone low and make that a benefit of Einhander and you can balance the styles significantly easier



There are currently few reasons to do the styles other than THF and TWF. I lookat this as an opportunity to expand what DDO has to offer.

Everyone is screamin about nerfs but I think we can use this time to some advantage if we get the thoughts in the right direction.



Glancing Blows: Reduce their frequency but increase the effects Proc... or perhaps remove the Proc completely and just have effects activate if a GB lands. What would be an acceptable % of Attacks producing Glancing Blows if every Glancing Blow had full effect? 75%? 50%? If Glancing Blows did base 10% Physical Damage and the Feats increased that by 10% each would that be accaptable? Would 40% Base Physical Damage plus Effects be too powerful? Would THF be in the top tier? Two Handed Fighting focuses on extra daamge from Glancing Blows.


Off Hand Attacks: Find the right balance. Tempest should be the best at this. It doesn't have to be so much better that it leaves all others wondering why they even bother. Tempest could also include improved damage for off hand attacks. Monks already have full off hand strength why shouldn't tempest get three quarters or so strength off hand. Maybe they have a proc rate 20% higher than the average TWF but also have more straight damage off hande would balance that out. Two Weapon Fighting gains its extra Damage from Off Hand Attacks.


Weapon and Shield: Nearly useless for DPS, only really useful for Intimitanking. Why shouldn't this be a viable style for permanent use. Make a tiered Feat Tree for this Shield Bash, Improved SHield Bash and Greater Shield Bash to have similar Proc effects to how Glancing Blows and Off Hand Attacks are going to be done. Is Shield Style going to be the optimal DPS style? Not a snowballs chance in hell but making it viable stylistically should be a goal. Weapon and Shield gains Extra Damage from Shield Bash Attacks.

Einhander: Single weapon combat. One Handed quick and precise. Same idea. Make it viable and fun. A series of Feat that make it a good DPS option if fully explored. INtroduce the Swashbuckler Class and have it grant said feats. Put something like Single Weapon Defense as an auxilary feat. Einhander would focus on extra main hand attacks granted through a Double Strike mechanic.


Each of these Styles could be affected in similar ways by Movement and Attack Sequence.

perhaps like I'd mentioned Moving reduces the Proc Chance of the individual styles special attacks (GB,OH,DS,SB) by 20% or something and the Spriong attack feat reduces that by 10%.

perhaps Attack sequence reduces or improves those chances -10/0/+10/+20 (or something like that... numbers can be balanced later)



ranged and thrown is another ball of wax and need more solutions to it



The point is that they have an opportunity to make more styles of combat viable and fun if they don't screw it up. More styles of characters and more builds means more characters and more characters means more slots. More slots means more revenue.


just spit ballin on this one ;)

Aesop

[Monkey_Archer]

So...63 more damage per second with TWO epic SoS equivalents, that is funny =]

Im probably not laughing at the same thing you guys are however :)

Yeah, after the TWF nerf it would still be much higher...
With the current system dual eSOSs woul be over 800 dps :eek:

[Winteris]

Lol, this is funny, the fact is, you can get high dex with a thf if you want, but you cant dump dex with a twf if you think the benefits are not enough for the investment of dex,

but the truth is that maybe only pallys have some problems with covering all needed abilities with 32 points build, so putting 15 points in dex (+2 tome r no rare ) is no sacrifice at all, there is no better place for those points



and saying that half the population has 6 lvls of ranger it disqualifies any other argument you can make...

u sure ? all those rgr splashed pallys, monks, rogs, battle clerics, monster type builds, r u really sure that it is not close to a half of melee population ?



penalize rangers, rogues, monks, paladins and any other odd melee build like arcane melee battle clerics or the like.
and nerf we r now discussing panalize exactly those classes even more, mine version is easier to balance and have many other advantages, but it is no thread to disscus it, it supposed to be THF feedback thread.

[Scraap]

Well, if we're talking S&B output into the equation, just to pick some simple numbers to spitball with:

TWF chance:


Doublestrike
Tempest III +5%*
Wind IV +10%
Zeal +10%
Alacrity +10%


THF -3% chance boost per


Doublestrike
None +5%*
THF +8%
ITHF +11%
GTHF +14%


Enhancement line:
Shield Spikes -(procs on-hit 1d4/1d6/1d8/1d12)


Shield Spikes 5%
Improved Shield Spikes 6%
Great Shield Spikes 7%
Massive Shield Spikes 8%


Would make it easier for an intimitank to keep doing damage as well as generating some hate to keep the focus on them, with Shield Bash, Improved Shield Bash and Greater Shield Bash adding, say, multiples to that percent chance _when bashing_, which comes out to...

Shield Spikes -(procs on-hit 1d4/1d6/1d8/1d12)


Base SB ISB GSB
Shield Spikes 5% 10% 15% 20%
Improved Shield Spikes 6% 12% 18% 24%
Great Shield Spikes 7% 14% 21% 28%
Massive Shield Spikes 8% 16% 24% 32%


Which would make for quite a nice porcupine, I'd think, if in addition to the inherent auto-attack, you get a roughly 1/3 chance for an additional burst of 1d12. (forget if shieldspikes are straight damage or STR+, and don't have the sourcebooks around atm to check.If so, might end up more than a bit OP. But that'd be the general gist to put it in perspective)

Would also like to note I do agree with the notion that movement should reduce proc-chances across the board.

Edit: apologies for the slightly off topic nature of this particular post, but it had occurred to me that the initial suggestion I'd made when taken in isolation could lead to some bad, bad places.

[Ethias]

It would reduce the relative effectiveness of that style character and thus make it once more a moot idea. Look at it this way for a sec.

THF gets GB say on 75% of his attacks and DS on 25% of his attacks

The Einhander gets not GB but gets DS on 50% of his attacks

THF do significantly more damage per hit than the Einhander and has similar # or attacks in a combat plus has Glancing Blows... where is the point for the Einhander then?

If the only point to single weapon combat is DS, then it is pretty much like dual wielding with one weapon. Not a big fan of that; I am not really sure how best to adapt single wielding specifically to DDO, but I think that the bastard-sword-glancing-blow stuff is moving in that direction; hell, give THF a small DS bonus and you can single wield a bastard sword or dwarven axe with nothing else if you really want! ;)

Also, 25% seems like an awful lot of DS for the thf line. I was thinking more like 15% at max, probably more like 10%. ITHF and TGHF giving 5% each, or 5% for each one.

imo, you can make an argument for "Einhander" (ugh) as an interesting style through other methods as well, rather than relying on it solely from the standpoint of DS. I would like to see any kind of Duelist line granting haste and bonus to special attacks as much as DS. *shrugs* I would rather see Einhander brought in the direction of haste, perhaps with a bit of DS at higher ends, but anyway, Einhander is definitely going off track from the "THF exclusive" aspect of this thread.

I understand why they are nerfing twitching, but I would like to see THF get something in return.

[Consumer]

Yeah, after the TWF nerf it would still be much higher...
With the current system dual eSOSs woul be over 800 dps :eek:

I used the version from your post rather than 2 actual epic SoSs.

Adding in the extra base damage from 9 to 14 still only gives 778.61, would like to know how your getting higher.

Gear setup I'm using for the calcs:

Race: WF

Trinket - Epic bloodstone
Head - Epic Helm of the Red Dragon
Goggles - Tharne's
Neck - Shintao cord
Docent - Redscale
Cloak - min II
Belt - Knost's
Bracers - Levik's
Ring - Encrusted
Ring - Kyosho's
Boots - Madstone

Using max sustainable str against trash with no resistance not quite sure how your getting higher. I could ofcourse include titans grip and pally/monk past lives in which case I get 832.03 DPS.

[Gercho]

but the truth is that maybe only pallys have some problems with covering all needed abilities with 32 points build, so putting 15 points in dex (+2 tome r no rare ) is no sacrifice at all, there is no better place for those points

Check every thf build and you will see that no one starts with dex above 12, and a lot (inluding all paladins) start with dex 8, so in fact, all those builds find a better use for the points than dex.



u sure ? all those rgr splashed pallys, monks, rogs, battle clerics, monster type builds, r u really sure that it is not close to a half of melee population ?

There are a lot of different builds that include at least 6 levels of ranger, that doesnt means that there are many players with each build, i would say that around 1% of the paladins splash 6 lvls of ranger, for fighters is more common, maybe 10 or 15%, clerics with 6 lvls of ranger are not common at all, barbarians neither...
Anyway, thats not the main point, the main point is, check every THF build and find the ones that start with dex higher than 12, and you will see that a lot of them start even lower...

[guyge1]

IMO - Glancing blows shouldn't have been in the system in the first place. I think it also creates an unnecessary load by having to calculate what is nearby that should take damage. A two handed weapon should just do massive damage when it hits, just less often (except the cleave which power players seem to hate).

I Have a THF Pally with Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave.
My Hack and Attack tactic.

*Find Small enemy group with Caster*or 2 close enemy.
*Run up*
Que Cleave
*Take 3 Steps Back* or to next closest mob
*Wait for it*
*Wait for it*
Que Great Cleave
Que Cleave
*Trip*
*Smite*
*Smite*

Usually works for melee enemies.
Of course chase down the rest/ranged.
I like the Style and collect all the types of Two Handed large Weapons.
Since the weapons are larger maybe consider another critical roll or a bonus to the modifier since it is a Large weapon that would cause a lot more power & momentum damage coming from the weight of it.

2cents

[krud]

Let's see what happens when we compare the dps of a human twf tempest ranger, with a human thf frenzied beserker. I'm using human because it is a good average baseline race, and because I can compare the two styles independent of racial enhancements/abilities (not gonna count HV boosts). I'm also only going to compare only what each class/style brings to the table, so no external buffs, class specific raid loot, pots, or item clickies. Just the spells/enhancements/abilities that come with the build.

Assumptions: Min2 khopesh or Great Axe vs acid immune mob, + 6 stat items, bloodstone, 18 base Str, +2tomes, max damage related enhancements.
Sources: http://ddowiki.com/page/Enhancements
http://ddowiki.com/index.php?title=Attack_sequence&
http://ddowiki.com/page/Glancing_blow
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=201535

TWF tempest ranger
Strength 34 : 18base +5level +6item +2ram's might +1human adaptability +2 tome.

Avg base damage:
5.5 avg GS khopesh
+5 weapon
+12 str (+6 offhand)
+5 power attack
+7 holy
+14 FvNME
48.5 per hit (42.5 offhand)

Avg crit damage:
5.5 avg khopesh
+5 weapon
+12 str (+6 offhand)
+5 power attack
+6 seeker
+14 FvNME
47.5 x 3 = 142.5 per crit (124.5 offhand)
+7 holy = 149.5 per crit (131.5 offhand)

Base attack rate @ bab20 = 88 attacks/min
current tempest attack rate = 97 attacks/min * 5/4 (tempest3) = 121 (97 offhand)
new attack rate = 88*105%*105% = 97 attacks/min (88 offhand)
*assuming tempest 3 extra main hand attack actually adds this amount. no values provided

Avg dps:
current:
avg dps main hand = [48.5 * (15/d20) + 149.5 * (4/d20)] * 121attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 133.7
avg dps off hand = [42.5 * (15/d20) + 131.5 * (4/d20)] * 97attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 94.0
total current TWF dps = 227.7

new:
avg dps main hand = [43.5 * (15/d20) + 134.5 * (4/d20)] * 97attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 107.1
avg dps off hand = [41 * (15/d20) + 120 * (4/d20)] * 88attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 85.3
total TWF dps (new) = 192.4


THF frenzied berzerker barbarian
Strength 50 : 18base +5level +6item +12rage +2 frenzy +4death frenzy+1human adaptability +2 tome.

Avg base damage:
10.5 avg GS Great Axe
+5 weapon
+30 str
+16 PA
61.5 base per hit
+7 holy
+21 vicious = 89.5 per hit

Avg crit damage:
10.5 avg Great Axe
+5 weapon
+30 str
+16 PA
+6 seeker
67.5 x 5 = 337.5 per crit
+7 holy
+21 vicious = 365.5 per crit

Glancing blows:
61.5 base damage * 30% = 18.5 per hit
*estimated glancing blow damage, ddowiki. No info on FB extra effect proc rate.

Base attack rate @ bab20 = 88 attacks/min

Glancing blow rate = 88 * 3/4 = 66 attacks/min

Avg dps
avg main dps = [89.5 * (17/d20) + 365.5 * (2/d20)] * 88attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 165.2
glancing blow = 18.5 * 66attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 20.4
total THF dps = 185.4


Hopefully my calculations are correct.

p.s. The interesting thing I see is how much higher dps goes when all external factors are considered (buffs, songs, clickies, extra gear effects, etc). When people post 300+dps numbers, fully 1/2 to 1/3 of their dps comes from factors unrelated to the build. Are there truly gimped builds, or is it mostly just a lack of the right buffs and farmed gear? Makes me wonder just how far can you buff up and gear out a "gimped" build? Can you actually make it respectable with enough buff, fluff, and stuff?

[Consumer]

snip

Very very far off, multiple sources of damage missing like greensteel effects, haste boosts if 18/1/1 or 18/2, activation times and so on.

Have to add around 300 DPS to your exploiter/tempest, not going to work out a Human Barb because Dwarf and WF are far superior choices.

[krud]

Very very far off, multiple sources of damage missing like greensteel effects, haste boosts if 18/1/1 or 18/2, activation times and so on.

Have to add around 300 DPS to your exploiter/tempest, not going to work out a Human Barb because Dwarf and WF are far superior choices.
Did you read the intro? I wanted to compare apples to apples, so chose pure human as a baseline. Feel free to choose your own race, but a basic human build is a good average starting point. Plus, I'm not interested in whatever external factors you can bring to the table. Anyone can farm their asses off for every frickin item in game, and bring their own pocket buffers. All this is doing is comparing the basics without all the external fluff.

Telling me "I can farm for more stuff to make the numbers higher", or "splash this and that for a little extra", doesn't change the relative ratios among THF/TWF/TWF(nerfed) that I came up with, which basically shows that the nerfed TWF values are almost equal to THF, when currently they are quite a bit ahead.

[Consumer]

Did you read the intro? I wanted to compare apples to apples, so chose pure human as a baseline. Feel free to choose your own race, but a basic human build is a good average starting point. Plus, I'm not interested in whatever external factors you can bring to the table. Anyone can farm their asses off for every frickin item in game, and bring their own pocket buffers. All this is doing is comparing the basics without all the external fluff.

Telling me "I can farm for more stuff to make the numbers higher", or "splash this and that for a little extra", doesn't change the relative ratios among THF/TWF/TWF(nerfed) that I came up with, which basically shows that the nerfed TWF values are almost equal to THF, when currently they are quite a bit ahead.

It might be the basics but your basics are wrong, also you include a bloodstone and two tier III greensteels as gear you dont have to farm?

[krud]

It might be the basics but your basics are wrong, also you include a bloodstone and two tier III greensteels as gear you dont have to farm?
Take those out and I guarantee the basic premise remains the same. Add in all the extra weapon effects you mention and the premise will remain the same. maybe a splash here or a different race there may tweak the numbers, but it won't change the result. You can build any situationally maxxed dps twf and/or thf if those numbers aren't big enough for you, but the basic premise will not change. TWF and THF will end up roughly equal with the new nerf

[Chai]

I am a strong proponent of leaving the Epic SoS out of the discussion. The weapon is not overpowered, its as powerful as an EPIC weapon is supposed to be. Minimal DR bypassing capabilities and increasing uselessness with the fortification of your target. The weapon is fine the way it is.

The gap between the best and second best weapon is larger than the gap between the second best weapon and the 17th best weapon. How is this not overpowered?


I also strongly disagree that TWF should deal more dps to a raid boss than a THF. You are standing there with a huge AXE or SWORD hacking away at your target, how can two khopeshes deal more damage than getting dented in by a mean double bladed AXE the size of your body, if you wanna talk how things should be realistically.

I can cut through 3 foot diameter thick rolls of carpeting diagonally just as easily with my TaiChi longsword as I can with my GuanDao. Two handed weapons in real life dont really inflict more damage than one handers. The realism factor, however, has no bearing on game balance, which is what we are talking about here.


Only valid argument is that they need to grind extra ingredients to create a second weapon, that I agree. But If you give the bonus to damage procs such as lightning and burst damage, It's sufficient to balance the classes, but making them deal more front number damage than a THF is rediculous.

The largest determining factor in the amount of damage between the styles is the number of attacks. Yeah THF gets more PA damage and such + str and a half, but the sheer number of attacks by twf are what set it apart. They are taking a hit on this in the proposed nerfage.

[Consumer]

i Can Cut Through 3 Foot Diameter Thick Rolls Of Carpeting Diagonally Just As Easily With My Taichi Longsword As I Can With My Guandao. Two Handed Weapons In Real Life Dont Really Inflict More Damage Than One Handers. The Realism Factor, However, Has No Bearing On Game Balance, Which Is What We Are Talking About Here.


Carpet!!!!

Tai Chi!!!!


Extreme Dude!!!!!

[Chai]

Heh its funny how people are placing me in the minority because I'll tr for 10 hp but...

Once you reach a point of saturation on your character with absolutely no way to improve him, you start delving into tr zones if it means you can give him something else. After 4 years of playing with numbers, performing tests, and tweaking and reworking the character- whats another 10 day grind gonna do...

Maximum damage output characters with a preferred playstyle such as shade and myself have no ac and no evasion to mitigate incoming damage. these builds will get hit back because they are meant to deal with aggro, your healthbar and dr are the only lines of defense (the latter applies moreso to barbs, fighters get dr solely as a function of gear, so they depend more on hp as offensive builds).

Anyone who has adapted THF as their chosen playstyle and have perfected it need no further explanation as to why shade is 100% correct in his previous post. You will still get more dps out of twitching even with the glancing blow nerf installed, and I will drop the GTHF feat because it will no longer be useful to me. Problem is barbs get the hp in return, fighters do not. Both of our glances have been taken away, but the barb has risen in his defenses- its just not a fair split in my eyes.

A fighter can get those hp in return if they want. If they took the feats as fighter only feats it will just take more reworking, but they can do it. They get 18 feats, so swapping feats out has always been a pain for fighters, but this doesnt start with the proposed nerf. This has always been the case. Wait til they start tacking on double strike chances to the combat lines, and then lets see if there will be a mass exodus of combat feat dropping. I am inclined to believe they will work somethign in that will make people want to keep those feats. Quote me and call it conjecture if you wish, but this is a pattern ive seen for a while now. This, and making you take feats and enhancements you wouldnt normally take just to qualify for the PRE you want.

Most people reach that level of saturation and roll up a new toon. After the second TR, you really dont gain anything anyhow as far as build is concerned.

Where twitching loses DPS is multiple targets. This currently is one of the things that sets THF apart as a combat style. You can play hard to get and still damage piles of mobs. After the nerf this wont be the case. This is the single largest reason so far that I am instinctively against this. Shade is correct that you will still get more single target DPS than you would if you didnt twitch, but you still get less after than before due to no glances. Its still a playstyle nerf, just like DA was a playstyle nerf.

[BlackSteel]

if they go foward with the changes to TWF, they should really redo THF at the same time instead of a later date.

having glancing blows proc on a % system similar to the offhand would be just fine. And you can tweak to percent to whatever seems suitable. If most TWF's cap at 80% offhand, have most THF's cap at 40% glancing. The fact that glancing blows already do less damage and have less effects than the offhand are more than enough to offset the fact they hit multiple mobs. Couple that with the lesser chance to proc and you can call that even for having 1.5 str and double PA.

[Chai]

Carpet!!!!

Tai Chi!!!!


Extreme Dude!!!!!


Yeah most people look at TaiChi as some kind of non combat style because they see people practicing it slowly as some sort of health training or something compared to yoga here in the States. It would be cool to take these people to WuDan Mountain for a few weeks and show people whats really up with this style of combat however. It stands right up there with WuShu in effectiveness.

[Consumer]

Yeah most people look at TaiChi as some kind of non combat style because they see people practicing it slowly as some sort of health training or something compared to yoga here in the States. It would be cool to take these people to WuDan Mountain for a few weeks and show people whats really up with this style of combat however. It stands right up there with WuShu in effectiveness.

Can't tell if joke or serious

[Chai]

Can't tell if joke or serious

You either know or you dont.

[Cetus]

A fighter can get those hp in return if they want. If they took the feats as fighter only feats it will just take more reworking, but they can do it. They get 18 feats, so swapping feats out has always been a pain for fighters, but this doesnt start with the proposed nerf.


You have no idea what you are talking about in this statement with regards to offensive fighter builds.

[Chai]

You have no idea what you are talking about in this statement with regards to offensive fighter builds.

Actually I know exactly what I am talking about. I just dont agree with your absolutist statement that fighters cant rework their toon to drop feats and take others. Most fighters will take those feats as fighter only feats, which means its harder, but not impossible to rework their toon to in order to change out feats.

I see this alot on the forums, where someone disagrees and claims the other person doesnt know what they are talking about, but yet wont clarify because to do so doesnt support their opinion on the situation. The only thing left at that point is to try to break down the credibility of the other person, which doesnt work when facts are there to back their assessment of the situation up.

You are not the only one who plays a 20 fighter or understands how their feat system works. But anyone who disagrees with you must not know what thery are talking about right?

Wrong.

Absolutism is a large reason why these types of issues cant be debated. You are looking for a horde of people to agree with you unconditionally, and when some dont, the only thing you got is "you dont know what youre talking about". If this is the case, please enlighten the rest of us ignorant individuals who have played fighters and reworked their toons several times over the years as to why fighters would not be able to rework their toon to drop those feats. What condition exists that doesnt allow them to do this?

[krud]

OK, so I recalculated numbers adding in good burst (1d6, d6+d6*crit mult) pos-pos GS, tharne's goggles (+8 sneak attack), rage spell (+2str), double madstone(+6str), warchanter (+9 damage), prayer(+2damage). Assuming haste + madstone = 1.15*1.2 increase in attack speed across the board. Added WF power attack enhancement +3 to PA.

I get:
twf current 473.4
twf new 399.7
thf 356.3

TWF pulls ahead by ~12% under the new setup (twf is much farther ahead using current standards). The difference is probably less when glancing blow weapon effects are considered (I couldn't find numbers on weapon effects procs for glancing blows, so left them out).

[BlackSteel]

[QUOTE=krud;2999668]OK, so I recalculated numbers adding in good burst (1d6, d6+d6*crit mult) pos-pos GS, tharne's goggles (+8 sneak attack), rage spell (+2str), double madstone(+6str), warchanter (+9 damage), prayer(+2damage). Assuming haste + madstone = 1.15*1.2 increase in attack speed across the board. Added WF power attack enhancement +3 to PA.

I get:
twf current 473.4
twf new 399.7
thf 356.3

TWF pulls ahead by ~12% under the new setup (twf is much farther ahead using current standards). The difference is probably less when glancing blow weapon effects are considered (I couldn't find numbers on weapon effects procs for glancing blows, so left them out).[/QUOTE

there's slot of wrong numbers n information in this post

for starters : haste n madstone do not stack

and your str bonus from madstone is wrong

[krud]

there's slot of wrong numbers n information in this post

for starters : haste n madstone do not stack

and your str bonus from madstone is wrong

http://ddowiki.com/page/Madstone_Rage ok it's +4 total, i thought +2 +4 = +6

mistook windstance + madstone. will recalculate for madstone only

twf current 410.5
twf new 347.9
thf 312.2 (non twitch)

~11%, still the same. The more effects you add, the more twf pulls away, but certainly not in huge increments. Depending on specific build (eg.18/1/1 exploiter adds ~10dps from rogue sneak attack - 2FE), buffs, and weapon effects you're still only looking at a difference of ~0-15% under the proposed setup

[Cetus]

Actually I know exactly what I am talking about. I just dont agree with your absolutist statement that fighters cant rework their toon to drop feats and take others. Most fighters will take those feats as fighter only feats, which means its harder, but not impossible to rework their toon to in order to change out feats.

I see this alot on the forums, where someone disagrees and claims the other person doesnt know what they are talking about, but yet wont clarify because to do so doesnt support their opinion on the situation. The only thing left at that point is to try to break down the credibility of the other person, which doesnt work when facts are there to back their assessment of the situation up.

You are not the only one who plays a 20 fighter or understands how their feat system works. But anyone who disagrees with you must not know what thery are talking about right?

Wrong.

Absolutism is a large reason why these types of issues cant be debated. You are looking for a horde of people to agree with you unconditionally, and when some dont, the only thing you got is "you dont know what youre talking about". If this is the case, please enlighten the rest of us ignorant individuals who have played fighters and reworked their toons several times over the years as to why fighters would not be able to rework their toon to drop those feats. What condition exists that doesnt allow them to do this?


Ok you want to throw an ultimatum to test my knowledge on feat distribution...ok

You are claiming that I can still acquire hitpoints through changing around feats as a result. I am stating explicitly that you cannot.

Feat breakdown:

Feats that occupy CLASS FEAT SLOTS:

PA, WS, GWS, WF, GWF, SWF, SB, THF, ITHF, GTHF. IC: SLASHING

Everyone of those feats are necessary for maintaining max dps in a chosen fighting style.

NON-CLASS FEAT SLOTS:

Toughness acquired 8 times- This is the maximum number of toughness feats a Human fighter can attain, he needs nothing else in the entire feat list because it is all acquired through class feat slots.

So, Please explain to me, how, even if "difficult", can I acquire more hp through reorganizing my feats?

It is impossible, unless they allow toughness to be a class feat slot like on a monk, for a fighter.

[Chai]

Ok you want to throw an ultimatum to test my knowledge on feat distribution...ok

You are claiming that I can still acquire hitpoints through changing around feats as a result. I am stating explicitly that you cannot.

Feat breakdown:

Feats that occupy CLASS FEAT SLOTS:

PA, WS, GWS, WF, GWF, SWF, SB, THF, ITHF, GTHF. IC: SLASHING

Everyone of those feats are necessary for maintaining max dps in a chosen fighting style.

NON-CLASS FEAT SLOTS:

Toughness acquired 8 times- This is the maximum number of toughness feats a Human fighter can attain, he needs nothing else in the entire feat list because it is all acquired through class feat slots.

So, Please explain to me, how, even if "difficult", can I acquire more hp through reorganizing my feats?

It is impossible, unless they allow toughness to be a class feat slot like on a monk, for a fighter.

You chose to take those toughness feats that many times, which is the maximum number of times a fighter can take toughness. You are already at your maximum allotment, and made your own choice by doing so. This is not the only way to build a good offense minded fighter, but it is your choice.

I dont feel any sympathy here because barbarians cant even take 8 feats total unless they are human, and here you have a fighter with 8 toughness feats and still have all the specializations required to be kensai.

And congrats on making a toon with the only combination of feats that makes this impossible due to already being at your max. You arent allowed more toughness period, under any circumstance. This is not just due to the nerf. You made your own bed here by already taking the feat the max amount of times.

Trying to apply your build choice to every single offensive minded fighter in order to make the statements you make, as if this is the only way to build, would be ludicrous at best. This is the absolutist mindset that is eroding this game by allowing 5 or 6 popular melee builds to play their game, and considering everyone else sub par. Hopefully the nerf shakes some people out of this mentality. If it does, at least it will have done something positive.

[Cetus]

You chose to take those toughness feats that many times, which is the maximum number of times a fighter can take toughness. You are already at your maximum allotment, and made your own choice by doing so. This is not the only way to build a good offense minded fighter, but it is your choice.

I dont feel any sympathy here because barbarians cant even take 8 feats total unless they are human, and here you have a fighter with 8 toughness feats and still have all the specializations required to be kensai.

And congrats on making a toon with the only combination of feats that makes this impossible due to already being at your max. You arent allowed more toughness period, under any circumstance. This is not just due to the nerf. You made your own bed here by already taking the feat the max amount of times.

Trying to apply your build choice to every single offensive minded fighter in order to make the statements you make, as if this is the only way to build, would be ludicrous at best. This is the absolutist mindset that is eroding this game by allowing 5 or 6 popular melee builds to play their game, and considering everyone else sub par. Hopefully the nerf shakes some people out of this mentality. If it does, at least it will have done something positive.


Heh, if you find a better way to make an offensive fighter- you let me know :eek:

The maximum allotted feat distribution is exactly what I am able very effectively take advantage of.

Barbs have the highest potential for hp- but they never reach it because they have all the other feats needed to be dps efficient to compete with it.

This is why my build works so effectively, because the required feats are taken as seperate categories from the toughness feats. Anything else you take besides the distribution I listed, is completely useless in my opinion for an offensive fighter build. And this opinion is based on years of testing. (closest one that comes is quickdraw, but a half a second in real time is insignificant for my playstyle personally).

And this distribution is based on what the game mechanics offer at the time, changes like these are what makes people quit. Keep changing the rules, and you really don't have a consistent ruleset by which you can create the most efficient character.

I can safely assure you, and this is not ego talking, this is the result of exhausting all possible solutions talking, that you cannot be any more effective as an offensive, max dps fighter if you deviate from that feat dsitribution.

Thats a strong statement, and I am confidently voicing it because that is what I have proven to work for the chosen goal in mind.

[Cetus]

You chose to take those toughness feats that many times, which is the maximum number of times a fighter can take toughness. You are already at your maximum allotment, and made your own choice by doing so. This is not the only way to build a good offense minded fighter, but it is your choice.

I dont feel any sympathy here because barbarians cant even take 8 feats total unless they are human, and here you have a fighter with 8 toughness feats and still have all the specializations required to be kensai.

And congrats on making a toon with the only combination of feats that makes this impossible due to already being at your max. You arent allowed more toughness period, under any circumstance. This is not just due to the nerf. You made your own bed here by already taking the feat the max amount of times.

Trying to apply your build choice to every single offensive minded fighter in order to make the statements you make, as if this is the only way to build, would be ludicrous at best. This is the absolutist mindset that is eroding this game by allowing 5 or 6 popular melee builds to play their game, and considering everyone else sub par. Hopefully the nerf shakes some people out of this mentality. If it does, at least it will have done something positive.



I can dispute with you how to buid the most effective offensive fighter all day, but bring it to a different thread. Stop derailing this one because regardless of any build decision, removing the usefulness of a feat that is common to several classes as melees, needs to be considered hesitantly, because then the redistribution of that feat can benefit one class over the other, thus resulting in a NEW imbalance.

'nuff said.

[Chai]

I can dispute with you how to buid the most effective offensive fighter all day, but bring it to a different thread. Stop derailing this one because regardless of any build decision, removing the usefulness of a feat that is common to several classes as melees, needs to be considered hesitantly, because then the redistribution of that feat can benefit one class over the other, thus resulting in a NEW imbalance.

'nuff said.

What you call derailment I call disagreement. You want to post a thread about a topic, you better be ready to hear and understand both sides of the topic. Also understand that people will disagree with you, and this is not derailing the thread. If you cant handle this, dont OP.

I have heard disagreement labeled as trolling, derailment, or not knowing what I or others are talking about, and this is the reason why we cant really have these discussions on open forums, because this is what it turns into. You clearly realize that my opinion and facts I used to back it up have merrit, but to admit this goes against all the absolutims piled into the mentality of players in this game who believe that you need to be one of the 4 or 5 cookie cutter builds in order to be labeled "best" at what you do. I will be there to point out why this fails, every time I can.

Turbine staff members want to hear all sides of players instinctual feedback concerning this issue and not just the few players who claim they are "at the top." They will also want to hear all sides of the feedback after this change is tested and the actuall results can be proven through example.

[sigtrent]

We never quite got the explanations that the OP was interested in.

Here is my read on all this....
1. Some animation/attack speed increases (tempest, fighter capstone, wind stance, zeal) are being changed to double strike proc chances. They will have a double strike percentage. That is the percent chance that you will get a second main hand attack when you make a normal main hand attack. This applies to all weapon styles but only affects main hand attacks.

Example: If I have double strike 20%. Each time I attack with my main hand (4 times per full standing animation) I will roll a 20% and if successful there will be two attacks made instead of one. This happens before you actually make an attack roll, but after you determine if there is a valid target to attack. You would only see the usual animation, but you would see two sets of damage numbers if both attacks hit.

Note: This is actually a lot like the glancing blows mechanic in that it too is a % based mechanic modified by various factors. (Ive seen some argue its not a % but an attack roll at a penalty) Presumably double strike bonuses would stack as a total percent.

Note #2: What they are doing to off hand attacks is essentially making them use this double strike mechanic, but with special off hand rules applied for damage bonuses from str and the like and using the off hand weapon instead of the main hand. Before you swing the main hand you roll the off hand % to see if you will be making the off hand attack.

Note #3: Not all speed boosts will become double strike (yet). Others like boost and the haste spell will remain actual animation/attack speed increases. As will the speed based on BAB.

2. Glancing blows will be removed from attacks made while moving. Normally the first attack while moving grants a glancing blow chance, and GTWF grants glancing blows on the second moving attack (there are two attacks in the Moving animation and 4 when standing still)

Explanation of glancing blows: These are bonus damage values applied both to your primary target and any other monster in reach of your weapon in an arc in front of you. They are generally about 1/4-1/3 of the base non crit damage (at lest that is my experience). There is a % chance for each target that they are applied. They happen only on certain animations, and this is modified by the two weapon fighting feats. There is also a chance that glancing blows will proc weapon effects. This chance can be increased by various enhancements. My understanding is that a fully speced THF can get glancing and procs on most if not all attacks.

Explanation of twitching: Twitching is a technique where you move side to side quickly while not actually moving out of range of your main target. It seems to use the moving animations, but sort or re-set's it so that it is especially fast, about 20% or so faster than the full 4 attack standing animation. TWF characters do not twitch because they do not get off hand attacks while moving, thus the 20% attack rate bonus would be offset by a 50% loss in number of attacks per animation.

Why this nerfs THF: For those actually moving around, they loose dps, although moving while fighting is not generally good dps (except for "twitch"). While twitching, the character would loose glancing blows. Likely twitching DPS could still beat standing DPS because glancing blows are less than 20% of full attack damage due to them not having a chance for crits and having a reduced base damage.

And now my analysis....

Why nerf THF glancing blows while moving?
1. The best reason is that it makes it more on par with TWF. Since TWF does not get any benefit while moving, they also took away the benefit that THF gets while moving. Prior to the update 5 nerf to TWF this could be seen as compensation for a generally weaker fighting style. THF was better while moving than TWF. Taking away some of the standing DPS advantage from TWF means the prior advantage THF enjoyed on the move could be taken away and both would be more consistent. As to why not just allow both to get bonus damage....

2. Twitch fighting is not intentional mechanics. It is something created as an externalities by the way moving and attacking works with animations. They can't program it out of the game, so they can only make a play incentive not to do it. In this case by taking away a weapon style's bonus damage effect. THF still has some bonuses (double PA and 1.5 str) that would be hard to take away without re-wiring. Taking away the much enhanced glancing blows is a way to dis-intensive the twitch play. Shade claims twitch will remain better DPS. Testing may prove that out, but its clearly not going to be as good as it was prior to the nerf.

[Aaxeyu]

Heh, if you find a better way to make an offensive fighter- you let me know :eek:

The maximum allotted feat distribution is exactly what I am able very effectively take advantage of.

Barbs have the highest potential for hp- but they never reach it because they have all the other feats needed to be dps efficient to compete with it.

This is why my build works so effectively, because the required feats are taken as seperate categories from the toughness feats. Anything else you take besides the distribution I listed, is completely useless in my opinion for an offensive fighter build. And this opinion is based on years of testing. (closest one that comes is quickdraw, but a half a second in real time is insignificant for my playstyle personally).

And this distribution is based on what the game mechanics offer at the time, changes like these are what makes people quit. Keep changing the rules, and you really don't have a consistent ruleset by which you can create the most efficient character.

I can safely assure you, and this is not ego talking, this is the result of exhausting all possible solutions talking, that you cannot be any more effective as an offensive, max dps fighter if you deviate from that feat dsitribution.

Thats a strong statement, and I am confidently voicing it because that is what I have proven to work for the chosen goal in mind.

There is nothing max DPS about a fighter build without quickdraw. Claiming otherwise is foolish.
Get over yourself.

[Cetus]

We never quite got the explanations that the OP was interested in.

Here is my read on all this....
1. Some animation/attack speed increases (tempest, fighter capstone, wind stance, zeal) are being changed to double strike proc chances. They will have a double strike percentage. That is the percent chance that you will get a second main hand attack when you make a normal main hand attack. This applies to all weapon styles but only affects main hand attacks.

Example: If I have double strike 20%. Each time I attack with my main hand (4 times per full standing animation) I will roll a 20% and if successful there will be two attacks made instead of one. This happens before you actually make an attack roll, but after you determine if there is a valid target to attack. You would only see the usual animation, but you would see two sets of damage numbers if both attacks hit.

Note: This is actually a lot like the glancing blows mechanic in that it too is a % based mechanic modified by various factors. (Ive seen some argue its not a % but an attack roll at a penalty) Presumably double strike bonuses would stack as a total percent.

Note #2: What they are doing to off hand attacks is essentially making them use this double strike mechanic, but with special off hand rules applied for damage bonuses from str and the like and using the off hand weapon instead of the main hand. Before you swing the main hand you roll the off hand % to see if you will be making the off hand attack.

Note #3: Not all speed boosts will become double strike (yet). Others like boost and the haste spell will remain actual animation/attack speed increases. As will the speed based on BAB.

2. Glancing blows will be removed from attacks made while moving. Normally the first attack while moving grants a glancing blow chance, and GTWF grants glancing blows on the second moving attack (there are two attacks in the Moving animation and 4 when standing still)

Explanation of glancing blows: These are bonus damage values applied both to your primary target and any other monster in reach of your weapon in an arc in front of you. They are generally about 1/4-1/3 of the base non crit damage (at lest that is my experience). There is a % chance for each target that they are applied. They happen only on certain animations, and this is modified by the two weapon fighting feats. There is also a chance that glancing blows will proc weapon effects. This chance can be increased by various enhancements. My understanding is that a fully speced THF can get glancing and procs on most if not all attacks.

Explanation of twitching: Twitching is a technique where you move side to side quickly while not actually moving out of range of your main target. It seems to use the moving animations, but sort or re-set's it so that it is especially fast, about 20% or so faster than the full 4 attack standing animation. TWF characters do not twitch because they do not get off hand attacks while moving, thus the 20% attack rate bonus would be offset by a 50% loss in number of attacks per animation.

Why this nerfs THF: For those actually moving around, they loose dps, although moving while fighting is not generally good dps (except for "twitch"). While twitching, the character would loose glancing blows. Likely twitching DPS could still beat standing DPS because glancing blows are less than 20% of full attack damage due to them not having a chance for crits and having a reduced base damage.

And now my analysis....

Why nerf THF glancing blows while moving?
1. The best reason is that it makes it more on par with TWF. Since TWF does not get any benefit while moving, they also took away the benefit that THF gets while moving. Prior to the update 5 nerf to TWF this could be seen as compensation for a generally weaker fighting style. THF was better while moving than TWF. Taking away some of the standing DPS advantage from TWF means the prior advantage THF enjoyed on the move could be taken away and both would be more consistent. As to why not just allow both to get bonus damage....

2. Twitch fighting is not intentional mechanics. It is something created as an externalities by the way moving and attacking works with animations. They can't program it out of the game, so they can only make a play incentive not to do it. In this case by taking away a weapon style's bonus damage effect. THF still has some bonuses (double PA and 1.5 str) that would be hard to take away without re-wiring. Taking away the much enhanced glancing blows is a way to dis-intensive the twitch play. Shade claims twitch will remain better DPS. Testing may prove that out, but its clearly not going to be as good as it was prior to the nerf.


Thats an intelligent evalutaion, pretty synonymou with what I've digested,

but, wouldn't changing the attack speed enhancements to "doublestrike" percentages demand a code rework- which would globally affect all speed boost enhancements, even the haste boost? Thats what I'm interested in learning about.

[Cetus]

There is nothing max DPS about a fighter build without quickdraw. Claiming otherwise is foolish.
Get over yourself.

Perhaps for your playstyle, I confirm otherwise.

[Cetus]

What you call derailment I call disagreement. You want to post a thread about a topic, you better be ready to hear and understand both sides of the topic. Also understand that people will disagree with you, and this is not derailing the thread. If you cant handle this, dont OP.

I have heard disagreement labeled as trolling, derailment, or not knowing what I or others are talking about, and this is the reason why we cant really have these discussions on open forums, because this is what it turns into. You clearly realize that my opinion and facts I used to back it up have merrit, but to admit this goes against all the absolutims piled into the mentality of players in this game who believe that you need to be one of the 4 or 5 cookie cutter builds in order to be labeled "best" at what you do. I will be there to point out why this fails, every time I can.

Turbine staff members want to hear all sides of players instinctual feedback concerning this issue and not just the few players who claim they are "at the top." They will also want to hear all sides of the feedback after this change is tested and the actuall results can be proven through example.

Reread my post and your responses.

I claimed that my build cannot gain the hp replacement that barbs can due to already maxed defenses (both the barb AND the fighter at this point in time). You falsely stated that I could, and I blatantly corrected ur misinformed judgment. Your accusation of my lack of knowledge is thread derailment, not opinion- despite open feat breakdowns.

All it takes is one case where the feat redistribution causes an imbalance, because that globally revolutionizes character planning in that sector.

I'd like to kindly ask you to take example of the other recent poster who actually supplied informative judgment based on the OP.

[Aaxeyu]

Perhaps for your playstyle, I confirm otherwise.

What, you don't use haste boosts or PS?
You can't always only use them when you're not fighting if you wan't optimization.

[lolwatboomer]

ya a lot of people don't realize quick draw increases the speed at which your boosts activate... whether or not it's intended is another story :rolleyes:

[Chai]

Reread my post and your responses.

I claimed that my build cannot gain the hp replacement that barbs can due to already maxed defenses (both the barb AND the fighter at this point in time). You falsely stated that I could, and I blatantly corrected ur misinformed judgment. Your accusation of my lack of knowledge is thread derailment, not opinion- despite open feat breakdowns.

All it takes is one case where the feat redistribution causes an imbalance, because that globally revolutionizes character planning in that sector.

I'd like to kindly ask you to take example of the other recent poster who actually supplied informative judgment based on the OP.

And you falsely claimed that this will affect all offensive fighters. This type of absolutism is again why we cant have these types of discussions on the open forums in a civil fashion, without it being full of rants about lack of knowledge. You are in the minority % of players who choose to use all their non fighter feats for toughness, and claims that this is going to imbalance the entirety of the fighter class -vs- barbarians. The rest of us in the huge gray area comprised of 99.5% of players dont care if barbarians or fighters have a few more hp than the other.

Who accused who of lack of knowledge again? Pot, Kettle, Black. Then you tried to make it sound like a class wide issue when its actually a specific build choice issue. Absolutism doesnt hold water in situational debates.

I did supply informative judgement, its just that you dont agree with it, and you feel the need to attack credibility because of this. If you are going to OP this kind of stuff, realize you are going to hear multiple viewpoints on the same subject. If you dont agree with it fine, but that doesnt mean I know less about what I am talking about than you do. If you cant handle disagreement, dont OP. You WILL be faced with multiple different viewpoints, many of which you do not agree with.

[Monkey_Archer]

Ok you want to throw an ultimatum to test my knowledge on feat distribution...ok

You are claiming that I can still acquire hitpoints through changing around feats as a result. I am stating explicitly that you cannot.

Feat breakdown:

Feats that occupy CLASS FEAT SLOTS:

PA, WS, GWS, WF, GWF, SWF, SB, THF, ITHF, GTHF. IC: SLASHING

Everyone of those feats are necessary for maintaining max dps in a chosen fighting style.

NON-CLASS FEAT SLOTS:

Toughness acquired 8 times- This is the maximum number of toughness feats a Human fighter can attain, he needs nothing else in the entire feat list because it is all acquired through class feat slots.

So, Please explain to me, how, even if "difficult", can I acquire more hp through reorganizing my feats?

It is impossible, unless they allow toughness to be a class feat slot like on a monk, for a fighter.

1) Thats not max dps. You need at least some blunt spec to be considered max dps.
2) Thats not even max slashing dps. You're missing quickdraw.
3) Talking about dropping the THF line is pointless. Removing glancing blows from moving attacks would make GTHF useless, so they will obviously give it additional bonuses if that happens. Even if they do completely remove moving glancing blows, the second you fail to do perfect twitch attacking (or your attack bonus isnt high enough to hit on a 2) you're not doing max dps. GTHF will still be required for max dps.

[Chai]

1) Thats not max dps. You need at least some blunt spec to be considered max dps.
2) Thats not even max slashing dps. You're missing quickdraw.
3) Talking about dropping the THF line is pointless. Removing glancing blows from moving attacks would make GTHF useless, so they will obviously give it additional bonuses if that happens. Even if they do completely remove moving glancing blows, the second you fail to do perfect twitch attacking (or your attack bonus isnt high enough to hit on a 2) you're not doing max dps. GTHF will still be required for max dps.

/agree.

What does someone with slashing and nothing else specced do in epic rayium? I am sure epic abbot isnt too far away. That might just be the toughest fight in the game when it comes out.

Every time I think of twitching through long fights, the WOW South Park episode comes to mind where Cartman is squirting Ben Gay onto peoples forearms to prevent carpaltunnel. :D

GTHF still being required for max DPS is conjecture for sure, but I cant believe that Turbine would go as far as eliminating all usefulness of it from the game after seeing all the feedback. They will likely put something in that will make people want to keep those feats. This type of speculation goes against absolutism however, where something definately IS or IS NOT.

I am still not going to go into complate Frenzied Nerdzerker mode until I see the actual results.

[Cetus]

What, you don't use haste boosts or PS?
You can't always only use them when you're not fighting if you wan't optimization.

Use them when I'm not fighting? quite the contrary..

I power surge and boost up when the need arises, .6 s delay does not make a difference when I am twitching anyway. I've played with it for some time and it did not impact my efficiency- just a personal preference.

[Aaxeyu]

Use them when I'm not fighting? quite the contrary..

I power surge and boost up when the need arises, .6 s delay does not make a difference when I am twitching anyway. I've played with it for some time and it did not impact my efficiency- just a personal preference.

Ofcourse it makes a difference. But what do you care, it's not like you're max dps anyho.

[ragwa1]

No

[Cetus]

/agree.

What does someone with slashing and nothing else specced do in epic rayium? I am sure epic abbot isnt too far away. That might just be the toughest fight in the game when it comes out.

Every time I think of twitching through long fights, the WOW South Park episode comes to mind where Cartman is squirting Ben Gay onto peoples forearms to prevent carpaltunnel. :D

GTHF still being required for max DPS is conjecture for sure, but I cant believe that Turbine would go as far as eliminating all usefulness of it from the game after seeing all the feedback. They will likely put something in that will make people want to keep those feats. This type of speculation goes against absolutism however, where something definately IS or IS NOT.

I am still not going to go into complate Frenzied Nerdzerker mode until I see the actual results.

Lol...if you read closely I chose my words carefully when using the "max dps statement"...it also says in a chosen fighting style---slashing.

I argued this with shade before and proved that I can hit the wiz king on a 2- its sufficient dps, not max against a target who is 2% of end game content anyhow. My point remains.

Chai...don't get upset, its a game. ;)

My views on quickdraw still remain from what I've found, all this theoretical talk you guys are good at breaks down at the mob after mob combat level.

[Cetus]

Ofcourse it makes a difference. But what do you care, it's not like you're max dps anyho.

lol.

fail

[ragwa1]

Instead of screwing up everyone's dps and gameplay turbine, how about you fix YOUR end and get some better servers that handle the current lag.

You are a multi million dollar company are you not?

[Cetus]

Instead of screwing up everyone's dps and gameplay turbine, how about you fix YOUR end and get some better servers that handle the current lag.

You are a multi million dollar company are you not?

yea, unfortunately fixing lag is half of their intentions. They also openly state their view of TWF as overtly higher dps, and thus want to tone it down.

[Chai]

Lol...if you read closely I chose my words carefully when using the "max dps statement"...it also says in a chosen fighting style---slashing.

I argued this with shade before and proved that I can hit the wiz king on a 2- its sufficient dps, not max against a target who is 2% of end game content anyhow. My point remains.

Chai...don't get upset, its a game. ;)

My views on quickdraw still remain from what I've found, all this theoretical talk you guys are good at breaks down at the mob after mob combat level.

I am not upset lol.

I am pointing out my opinion, that nothing in DDO should be justified by one absolutist point of view. While I dont mind absolutist min maxers and what they do for the game by showing us its boundaries, I am almost always against suggesting that changes be made due to one circumstance, and that circumstance being derived by choice.

The statement you likely should be making is this is nerfing your chosen build and playstyle. After clearly defining your playstyle, which you pretty much have, people will then understand your feedback and reply to it regarding how it relates to them, or how it does not.

Its going to nerf my chosen playstyle for 2 of my toons as well. When I actually see the results, I will be able to then at least somewhat measure the impact the change has on what I do. What I cant do is say that this change will have the same universal impact to everyone who plays the same class, or similar builds. I would also not suggest changing the game due to my playstyle alone, although my playstyle as well as yours does add into that equation, a mere one of these shouldnt be used to justify changing the game to fit the one standard.

[Cetus]

I am not upset lol.

I am pointing out my opinion, that nothing in DDO should be justified by one absolutist point of view. While I dont mind absolutist min maxers and what they do for the game by showing us its boundaries, I am almost always against suggesting that changes be made due to one circumstance, and that circumstance being derived by choice.

The statement you likely should be making is this is nerfing your chosen build and playstyle. After clearly defining your playstyle, which you pretty much have, people will then understand your feedback and reply to it regarding how it relates to them, or how it does not.

Its going to nerf my chosen playstyle for 2 of my toons as well. When I actually see the results, I will be able to then at least somewhat measure the impact the change has on what I do. What I cant do is say that this change will have the same universal impact to everyone who plays the same class, or similar builds. I would also not suggest changing the game due to my playstyle alone, although my playstyle as well as yours does add into that equation, a mere one of these shouldnt be used to justify changing the game to fit the one standard.


Thats a convincing point, so I'll admit the hotheadedness stemming from this proposed update. It just doesn't seem like a good idea if every person posting here is saying how a toon of theirs is getting nerfed, regardless of individual setups. Its globally creating a factor of "****, some characters are now not as useful and I need to reevaluate the setup" feeling.

[Chai]

Thats a convincing point, so I'll admit the hotheadedness stemming from this proposed update. It just doesn't seem like a good idea if every person posting here is saying how a toon of theirs is getting nerfed, regardless of individual setups. Its globally creating a factor of "****, some characters are now not as useful and I need to reevaluate the setup" feeling.

Yeap those LRs should be flying off the shelf when this goes down.

I am saying this instinctively of course. :D

In other news, Lamania might get a good stress test when this goes live on that server for testing purposes.

Cant wait.

Its possible I might see you all over there. Though with the sheer number of people its possible I wont heh.

[Chai]

Instead of screwing up everyone's dps and gameplay turbine, how about you fix YOUR end and get some better servers that handle the current lag.

You are a multi million dollar company are you not?

I have been harping on this for a while. When I played EQ, we didnt have raid restrictions that applied to how many people we can take into an instance. At times we would have 75 people or so, and we didnt see this type of DPS lag that affected everyone at the same time to the same degree.

I have to believe there is another way around this.

[sigtrent]

but, wouldn't changing the attack speed enhancements to "doublestrike" percentages demand a code rework- which would globally affect all speed boost enhancements, even the haste boost? Thats what I'm interested in learning about.

I'm sure it takes some coding. I'm a programmer so I have some insight, although every program is different. Because they have some mechanics that work like doublestrike already (glancing blows) I think they can likely adapt that code. Clearly effects in game are not tightly bound to sources so any think can produce any effect. Trying the code for a double strike effect to an item or spell is likely as easy as making a few database changes (and then doing lots of testing). Creating the mechanic and balancing out the consequences is likely where the work is. Also pulling out the TWF mechanic we have now may be a bit tangled.

It wouldn't need to effect all speed boosts. Those can stay the same, its just the ones they change will "point to" a new effect they are creating while the old ones point to the old effect.

[sigtrent]

3) Talking about dropping the THF line is pointless. Removing glancing blows from moving attacks would make GTHF useless, so they will obviously give it additional bonuses if that happens.

Only for twitch would it be useless. It also grants a glancing blow chance on attack 4 of the standing animation.

[sigtrent]

I have been harping on this for a while. When I played EQ, we didnt have raid restrictions that applied to how many people we can take into an instance. At times we would have 75 people or so, and we didnt see this type of DPS lag that affected everyone at the same time to the same degree.

I have to believe there is another way around this.

EQ characters don't attack 4-6 times per second. More like once every 2 seconds. I've also been in DDO groups where there was little lag in a full party, but it was clear it was not a DPS madness crowd.

Lag in DDO is double edged. On one hand it means the game is performing badly and you could die without much recourse. On the other hand it means you are dealing insane damage to your enemy and they are likely to drop quickly.

Heck, my level 19 paladin monk can almost generate DPS lag all by himself. Haste + fighter boost + wind stance + Zeal + GTWF + Unarmed speed..... its F-ing fast! Numbers just kind of fly away like a movie credit on TV. In EQ2 I used to fall asleep at the keyboard and wake up having won the fight :P And EQ doesn't need aiming or as much collision detection. Monsters can move through you, you can hit so long as you re in a pretty big zone of effect etc... its just a much simpler game on the technical side.

[Vanshilar]

(124 x 17 hits) + (595 x 2 crits) / 20 swings = 164.9 average damage per swing
61 x 9.5 hits / 20 swings = 29 average glancing blow per swing

29 / 164.9 = 17.6% of your dps while twitching or moving


So given that twitch attacking is only a roughly 20% increase in attack speed, I dont think twitching will increase dps much at all (it could possibly even lower dps for barbs)


So back to my point...

Assuming this nerf somehow balances TWF an THF autoattack dps to be roughly equal...
and the change to glancing blows makes twitch attack roughly equal to autoattack dps...

Why, why, why would a moving THF do ~17% less dps then a moving TWF? :rolleyes:

I'm not quite sure if you were being facetious but ah, based on those numbers, it seems pre-update 5 (i.e. currently) twitch damage per swing would be 164.9 + 29 = ~194 damage per hit while auto-attack would be 164.9 + 61 * 0.95 * 0.75 = ~208 damage per hit. That twitch is ~20% higher attack rate would mean that it does 194 * 1.2 = ~233 damage per hit of the same time frame of auto-attack (that is, twitch would do 233 damage in the time it takes an auto-attack guy to do a swing, while the auto-attack guy would do 208 damage during the swing) => twitch gives roughly 12% more DPS than auto-attack currently.

Of course, you take away the glancing blows, and you take away roughly 29/194 = ~15% of (a barbarian's) DPS, so that twitch would be 165 * 1.2 = ~198 damage in the time frame of auto-attack. Hence barbs might have less DPS twitching once the update goes in. However, this is sort of a rough analysis (since it uses the above numbers which are rough and don't consider things like seeker etc), in some cases it may still be better to twitch, it will depend on the circumstance. And I think that's one of the developers' goals; if it's not clear that twitch gives you an advantage, then hopefully less people will learn how to do so is probably their intent.

So I'm not quite sure what you mean by moving THF doing 17% less DPS than moving TWF, I think their intent is that autoattack TWF = autoattack THF = moving THF.

What's interesting is how it will affect non-barb THF, since barbs get a disproportionate amount of DPS from glancing blows compared with the other styles (due to frenzy and death frenzy damage proccing on every glancing blow), it may be that non-barb THFers will still find it advantageous to twitch. And of course, there are still some situations where twitching will still be highly advantageous, such as hitting stunned monsters.

Anyway, I think it'll be a shame if they do make twitching not give an edge in combat. Currently it's a game mechanic that relies on player skill rather than just length of time spent grinding for ingredients (i.e. TWF), and it's not a particularly big game-changer or anything. Losing it would make the game more boring -- back to just hitting auto-attack and checking email, and lose the dynamicism in combat. It seems like however, it's part of a more "global" nerf to DPS; both THF and TWF will be affected. Don't see how that's different than, say, giving all the monsters 10% more HP behind the scenes.

EDIT: Rereading the thread, I'm guessing Monkey_Archer is referring to less DPS while continually moving rather than stop-move-stop-move style of twitching or stepping or whatever. Hmmm.

[Aaxeyu]

lol.

fail

Can't say I expected anything more from you...

[maddmatt70]

Shrug, its not like glancing blows add much damage when doing perfect twitch anyway. This allow the perfect twitchers (5% of the playing population) to dump the lousy thf feats that is if they still have them.

[BlackSteel]

Shrug, its not like glancing blows add much damage when doing perfect twitch anyway. This allow the perfect twitchers (5% of the playing population) to dump the lousy thf feats that is if they still have them.

for a barbarian its more than 10% of their total single target damage

[Shade]

Only for twitch would it be useless. It also grants a glancing blow chance on attack 4 of the standing animation.

Really getting old.

People who have no idea about the fighting style commenting on it.

Here's a simple fact you need to understand if your going to continue in this thread:

EVERYONE - EVERY-ONE who uses two handed fighting, uses attacks while moving. OFTEN.

This game is all about active combat, monsters run around allot. Players run around allot. Players uses attacks while moving allot.

All players.

Not just ones who understand twitch attack.

Even if you have no idea how to twitch attack. You currently do equal or better DPS using purely attacks while moving as long as your attack bonus is high enough. All players can understand this simple concept. It's how the game is designed and is intended as it was part of the combat speed updates to equalize attacks while moving with those with standing. The difference is the -4 attack penalty.

This is a NERF to all THF players that have the full THF feat line. Period.

GET IT?

Good.

[Monkey_Archer]

So I'm not quite sure what you mean by moving THF doing 17% less DPS than moving TWF, I think their intent is that autoattack TWF = autoattack THF = moving THF.


What i mean is this:

TWF and THF attack at the same speed standing still (approximately). Suppose the changes make them do roughly equal dps. This dps would include glancing blows.

TWF and THF also attack at the same speed while moving (approximately). By removing glancing blows completely there is no possible way THF can do as much dps as TWF. (roughly 17% less on a barb)
That would be like saying that TWFs shouldnt get offhand attacks while moving.

[sigtrent]

Really getting old.

Pot... meet kettle.


People who have no idea about the fighting style commenting on it.

I have a two handed fighter with the full feat line, I do know what I'm talking about. The simple fact is that TWF does not get extra attacks while moving and they attack while moving. THF also attacks while moving and they get glancing blows while moving. The devs are leveling that part of the playing field so that neither style gets any "bonus damage when they attack while moving.


Here's a simple fact you need to understand if your going to continue in this thread:
EVERYONE - EVERY-ONE who uses two handed fighting, uses attacks while moving. OFTEN.

I'll do what I like Shade, and post what I like no matter your "OPINION" on anything.

EVERYONE - EVERY-ONE who does any kind of fighting THF or TWF or spell casting, or sword and shield etc.... attacks while moving. OFTEN.

Wow, who would have thought such a thing possible? Attacking while moving... shucks. What a revelation that is Shade. :p

Fact is, the game wants to reward you with extra damage for standing still. Its supposed to be a trade off. Stand still and get offensive advantages, or move around and get defensive advantages.


This game is all about active combat, monsters run around allot. Players run around allot. Players uses attacks while moving allot.

No doubt. But if you want to maximize offense, you need to take the risk of standing still. Why do you think we typically hem in bosses in raids? So we can maximize melee damage output on them. When they are running around they are hard to connect with. Same goes for characters.


All players.
Not just ones who understand twitch attack.

And not all players get their bonus damage when they are moving. TWF and THF are offensive styles. Glancing blows were invented to give THF some kind of damage parity with TWF while still being a bit different. Since they are nerfing TWF's stand and deliver attack damage they seem to have decided to take away some of THFs move and attack advantage for balance. They apparently don't want you doing maximal damage while on the hoof.


Even if you have no idea how to twitch attack. You currently do equal or better DPS using purely attacks while moving.

Only if you can stay on the target while doing so. And only if you are a THF with the GTHF feat. TWF looses all bonus attacks while moving so its a bad gig for them. Sword and board, might get some kind of damage increase from animation speed but its not easy to stay on the target that way unless you do what you do which is bobble back and forth. But your twitch is partly about resetting the animation, its faster than simply running and swinging.


All players can understand this simple concept. It's how the game is designed and is intended as it was part of the combat speed updates to equalize attacks while moving with those with standing. The difference is the -4 attack penalty.

You can't seem to understand that the devs decided letting THF get bonus damage while moving was imbalanced compared to everyone else who gets nothing while moving.

Personally I think there should be some kind of feat line that helps you specialize in attacking while moving. Like the scout class in 3.5 which got sneak attack damage only while on the move. That would reward or let players like you who want to specialize in that do so.


This is a NERF to all THF players. Period.

So? I never argued it wasn't. They also nerfed all TWF players.
That said, it does not nerf all THF players equally. Those who exclusively attack while moving are harder hit than those who only did so situationally. With my THF I couldn't be bothered to constantly be shifting around. I moved when I was taking more hits than I wanted and I stood still when I wanted to simply deliver damage, same as I do on all my melee characters.

[sigtrent]

That would be like saying that TWFs shouldnt get offhand attacks while moving.

They don't.

[Chai]

This is a NERF to all THF players that have the full THF feat line. Period.



I am still wondering what they are going to toss in that will make people want to keep the THF line.

[Chai]

They don't.

They do.

I can stun on the move with my kensai and the mob takes 2 hits and has to make 2 saves, or its stunned. This is also reflected in the combat log afterward.

I have also stunned 2 different mobs on the same stun activation while moving.

[Monkey_Archer]

TWF looses all bonus attacks while moving so its a bad gig for them.


That is inccorrect.

TWF gets "bonus attacks" in the form of offhand attacks.
THF gets "bonus attacks" in the form of glancing blows.

TWF does NOT loose offhand attacks while moving.

The proposed changes does not inicate that TWF would loose moving offhand attacks either.

[Chai]

Personally I think there should be some kind of feat line that helps you specialize in attacking while moving. Like the scout class in 3.5 which got sneak attack damage only while on the move. That would reward or let players like you who want to specialize in that do so.



There is. Its called THF. Reading the descriptions of the feats will show you this - especially GTHF.

Greater Two Handed Fighting http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Greater_Two_Handed_Fighting

Usage: Passive

Allows you to make additional glancing blow attacks when wielding a two-handed weapon and moving, and late in your chain of attacks. Also increases the chance for weapon effects to trigger on glancing blows.

[Ethias]

They don't.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Attack_sequence seems to indicate otherwise. Is it incorrect?

EDIT: Nope it's right, others above pointed that out. URL left in in case anyone hasn't seen it.

[sigtrent]

They do.
I can stun on the move with my kensai and the mob takes 2 hits and has to make 2 saves, or its stunned. This is also reflected in the combat log afterward.
I have also stunned 2 different mobs on the same stun activation while moving.

I'll give it a careful test tonight. I've always experienced only one hit while moving on a TWF. I'll find some softie mobs (to make sure I'm not just missing) and I'll give it a go myself and see.

If what you say proves out then I'd say the change to THF glancing blows while moving makes little sense balance wise.

[sigtrent]

I did some testing and I did indeed get off hand attacks while moving.

(I did note that you have to get the monster head on for this, a side shot often only gets the sword on that side.)

Given that I see no good reason to remove glancing blows while moving.

[Vanshilar]

Well I went and programmed it up into Excel to see how general THF barbs will be affected. I simulated for both twitch and non-twitch and both pre-update and post-update. The weapons and targets were eSoS vs lit2 falchion vs Velah (0% fort 0 DR) and eSoS vs min 2 greataxe vs devil boss on normal (50% fort 15 DR). The results isn't pretty, it looks like moderately-equipped barbarians will have their DPS reduced by around 20% after the combat update, around 25% if using the epic sword of shadows.

The assumptions that I made regarding the character/equipment setup are as follows:
* level 20 pure human barbarian (to keep it simple, I didn't want to deal with stuff like dwarf damage bonus to axes but not to great swords i.e. eSoS)
* 60 str (fairly doable, remember this is for moderately equipped, not totally geared out, to make this more applicable to the general playerbase not the max possible DPSers)
* 26 base damage modifiers (again, fairly doable, just 16 from power attack, 2 from ToD FB set, 8 from bard song)
* 6 seeker from bloodstone
* no backstabbing (i.e. no Tharne's)

Regarding the weapons, I made the following assumptions:
* Epic Sword of Shadows (eSoS) stats will be changed from the current 4d6 (avg 14) base damage to 5d6 (avg 17.5), and its x4 crit multiplier will be changed to x3 crit multiplier
* Mineral 2 green steel greataxe (min2) and lightning 2 green steel falchion (lit2) stats will be unchanged
* Mineral 2 magical proc damage on hit is 7 from holy, 0 from acid burst and acid blast, and 2.5 from slicing; on crit is an additional 2.2 from acid burst and 2.2 from acid blast; on natural 20 roll is an additional 4.19 from acid blast (note that these numbers assume that devil bosses have acid resistance 10, although I have not tested this myself, let me know if you have tested results on their acid resistance)
* Lightning 2 magical proc damage on hit is 7 from holy and 3.5 from electric; on crit is an additional 5.5 from shocking burst and 5.5 from shocking blast; on natural 20 roll is an additional 14 from shocking blast; and there is a 2% chance on hit of a 600 damage lightning strike
* force damage ritual on all weapons for +1 force damage on successful hit (not that it affects much)

Regarding the game mechanics, I made the following assumptions:
* Attack speeds are taken from Monkey_Archer's testing here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=250610)
* I'm going to ignore stuff like frenzy activate time and such from the DPS calculations, since this isn't meant to be a barb vs fighter vs anything else comparison, more of a barb pre-update vs barb post-update comparison, i.e. a relative measure of pre-update and post-update DPS rather than an absolute one; obviously, the inclusion or exclusion of those "dead" times don't affect the relative DPS of weapons like eSoS vs lit2
* After the update, the barbarian capstone alacrity bonus will be removed, plus madstone + haste speed will be slowed down to haste speed (as was reported in some initial testing here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=252588)); otherwise the attack speeds will remain the same (i.e. I can use Monkey_Archer's numbers for after the update goes live)
* Currently, while twitching, there are glancing blows on 50% of the hits when twitching and 75% of the hits when auto-attacking
* After the update, there are glancing blows on 0% of the hits when twitching and 75% of the hits when auto-attacking

From these it's just a matter of typing in the attack damage formulae using these numbers and assumptions. The results that I get are below:

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Vanshilar/DPSBarbVelah.jpg

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Vanshilar/DPSBarbDevil.jpg

You can see if you get similar results by doing your own DPS calcs.

You can see that generally speaking, currently perfect twitch only gives about an 11% increase in DPS compared with turning auto-attack on and grabbing a drink -- and of course, this assumes that you can twitch perfectly through the vicious self-damage animation, your avatar being blocked by groupmates and spell effects (like a delayed blast fireball being cast), lag, different cooldowns as different alacrity effects wear off, etc. In other words, in real raid conditions (rather than the the "laboratory" conditions that the attack speeds are often tested in) your actual DPS when twitching is likely in between the twitching and auto-attacking DPS, depending on your level of success. The DPS increase is certainly nice for the pros that can do it but not exactly a game-changer or a game-busting feature, especially since it's something that rewards player skill as opposed to just rewarding time spent grinding through shroud/amrath runs for large mats (i.e. TWF).

You can also see that rather than the doom-and-gloom predictions, the eSoS will still be the weapon of choice for 0% fort 0 DR monsters such as Velah and trash. It will still do about 16% more damage than if you were using a lightning 2 falchion, compared with about 30% more damage currently. On the devil bosses, however, the eSoS will be knocked down to about on par with mineral 2 greataxe when on normal difficulty, compared with about 8% more DPS currently. Remember that this is for a moderately-equipped character; the eSoS will better relative to lit 2 and min2 with well-equipped characters.

You can also see that the regular GS weapons will have their DPS output decreased by about 19% compared with current. As expected, the eSoS will suffer more, around 28% for a 0 fort 0 DR case, while it's a more modest 25% with 50% fort 15 DR. You can also see that the eSoS will be pretty comparable to a min2 on normal shroud/VoD/ToD runs, meaning that it won't make a difference which one you use on normal, but on hard/elite you'll likely be using the min2. So the eSoS will be reduced to a niche weapon, i.e. useful for one set of circumstances rather than nearly all circumstances. It largely means that instead of using lit2 for trash and min2 for bosses pre-eSoS, post-update 5 it will be eSoS for trash and min2 for bosses.

To break down the 19% DPS loss for THF barbs using non-eSoS, you can sort of take a guess by seeing what happens if one aspect changed but the other aspects stayed the same (i.e. partial differentiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_differentiation)). In this case, the DPS loss would be:

3% if madstone + haste speed were reduced to haste speed (but twitch and barb alacrity remained the same)
10% if twitch mechanic were changed and hence you auto-attacked instead (but madstone and barb alacrity remained the same)
6% if barb alacrity were removed (but madstone and twitch remained the same)

So the majority of the loss seems to be from decreasing the effectiveness of twitch, although you lose about the same amount of DPS (i.e. around 9%) from just standing there auto-attacking pre-update and post-update. It would seem a bit difficult to reconcile with Eladrin's stated purpose of the TWF change in that it "reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting" when within the same update they will be decreasing the effectiveness of THF (specifically twitch). I don't know why any TWFers are complaining about a 10-15% DPS loss when this is currently what THF barbs face, nor how the update will adjust the balance between TWF and THF since it seems like both will take a significant DPS loss.

Note: In these examples I use a barb since that's what I'm more familiar with, I'm not sure at this point yet how the changes will affects THF fighters and paladins, I'll get around to them later I guess.

[Logic]

I'm not happy about the THF changes. I have a 20 WF FvS that uses greatswords. I think I might just drop the whole THF chain. Anybody else thinking of dropping the whole chain?

[Vanshilar]

What i mean is this:

TWF and THF attack at the same speed standing still (approximately). Suppose the changes make them do roughly equal dps. This dps would include glancing blows.

TWF and THF also attack at the same speed while moving (approximately). By removing glancing blows completely there is no possible way THF can do as much dps as TWF. (roughly 17% less on a barb)
That would be like saying that TWFs shouldnt get offhand attacks while moving.

They could make it so that THF gains glancing blows on the 2nd moving animation (i.e. the diagonally up swing) rather than the 1st moving animation (i.e. the diagonally down swing). If you're continually moving, you'd still get glancing blows on 50% of your attacks, the way it is now, while you would still lose glancing blows if twitching, which is what the developers seem to intend to discourage it.

[Zaal]

People, what is so seemingly wrong with just overall slowing down the combat system to that the servers have more time to process two weapon attacks?

Yeah, takes more time to kill something but that could be off set by more XP.

Or, if the engine is slowed down by say 10%, monster hp's could also be reduced by 10% - a net balance.
Of course not doing the numbers but if someone did, I'm sure there'd be a sweet spot where the actual battle would take the same amount of human time as it did before.

Also, slowing down the engine would give the devs more opportunity to in future play with the cycles to do other stuff - no, not suggesting the fill up the gain so that we're back in the same situation.

Also, with the engine slowed down, animation would be easier to sync.

Sure, players would perceive the slow down in animation and assume the game is slow but, the hardcore base would know what's up.

Anyway, if the combat system were slowed down, there'd be no need to nerf anything - till the next time :)

[Cetus]

They do.

I can stun on the move with my kensai and the mob takes 2 hits and has to make 2 saves, or its stunned. This is also reflected in the combat log afterward.

I have also stunned 2 different mobs on the same stun activation while moving.

I can confirm this.

[BlackSteel]

Well I went and programmed it up into Excel to see how general THF barbs will be affected. I simulated for both twitch and non-twitch and both pre-update and post-update. The weapons and targets were eSoS vs lit2 falchion vs Velah (0% fort 0 DR) and eSoS vs min 2 greataxe vs devil boss on normal (50% fort 15 DR). The results isn't pretty, it looks like moderately-equipped barbarians will have their DPS reduced by around 20% after the combat update, around 25% if using the epic sword of shadows.

when I worked it out I get 'similar' numbers. only reason I say similar is b/c I used maxed out numbers that anyone thats routinely running epic velah should have anyway.

not counting tharnes prenerf, I get ~650 DPS for the eSoS, after the nerf I have ~ 450. squeezing out those last few points really escalate it up there simply by the fact of the sword's high critical power. Almost a 30% loss. (if the situation was reversed it would be almost a 50% gain)

yes the sword is still usable in some situations, but its not much of an upgrade over lit2 on autocrit situations (which comes nowhere close to a TWF with picks in the same situation) Unusable of most types of DR. And honestly in my opinion, no longer much of an upgrade over the original SoS. The sword gains 16 damage and a red slot. Neither of which improves on what the sword was originally good for (an awesome crit machine) or makes the sword more viable in other combat scenarios (DR bypassing/autocrit/crit immune)

[Vanshilar]

I went through and did similar DPS calculations for fighters. I don't presume to know the fighter class that well though, so if there's some important fighter thing that I'm missing, please let me know. The results are fairly similar, although the DPS decrease won't be as big as for the barbarian. I want to emphasize that it probably isn't valid to compare the numbers with the ones for the barbarian above, this is mostly for a relative measure for a fighter pre- and post-Update 5.

The character/equipment setup assumptions were as follows:

* Level 20 human pure fighter (once again, don't want to deal with racial bonuses)
* The fighter is kensei, specialized in each weapon being considered (note that this means I'm comparing builds, since a particular fighter wouldn't really be able to switch between greatsword, falchion, and greataxe at will without losing out on specializations)
* 50 str to be comparable with a similarly-equipped barbarian; note that a barbarian gets +12 str from rage, +4 from death frenzy, +2 from frenzy, +2 from barbarian might, and +2 from the ToD FB set for a total of +22 str, while a fighter gets +8 from kensei power surge and +3 from enhancements for a total of +11 str
* 30 base damage modifiers (10 from power attack, 4 from the kensei weapon enhancements, 2 from the fighter weapon enhancements, 4 from the weapon spec feats, 2 from FB set, and 8 from bard song)
* 14 seeker, 6 from bloodstone and 8 from kensei enhancements for THF weapons
* +1 kensei 3 critical range that doesn't stack with imp crit (so eSoS has a crit range of 13-20 instead of 14-20 for when have imp crit)
* no backstabbing (no Tharne's)

The weapon assumptions are the same as given above.

For the fighter attack speeds, the assumptions were:
* I assume that the fighter capstone currently is providing the same alacrity as the barbarian capstone, though I don't really know if that is the case. The attack speeds are given in the link above
* To take into account haste boosts (assuming quickdraw), the number of attacks are multiplied by (19.4*1.3 + 10*1)/30, which is basically a 30% attack speed increase for 19.4 seconds (the duration of the haste boost) and the regular attack for 10 seconds; I know that the actual attack speed increase may be slightly different, but, assuming that it doesn't change in Update 5, the DPS measures will still be accurate as a relative measure of pre-Update 5 and post-Update 5
* I assume that (as with above), madstone + haste attack speed will be reduced to the current haste speed, i.e. assuming that madstone's alacrity increase will be reduced
* I will assume that the fighter capstone gives a 10% chance of double strike, rather than an alacrity bonus, after the Update

From this, the stats for the THF fighter can also be graphed out:

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Vanshilar/DPSFtrVelah.jpg

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Vanshilar/DPSFtrDevil.jpg

One thing to notice is that twitching on a fighter using eSoS still provides a slight advantage over auto-attacking after the update. If you understand where a barbarian's DPS comes from, this shouldn't be too surprising. As it stands currently with the stats given above, a barbarian using the eSoS would do around 217 damage per main hit, and around 53.5 damage per glancing blow (twitching, of course, decreases this by 50% and thus around 26.75 damage per actual swing). This amounts to around (11% of the barbarian's total DPS) when twitching. But if you break this down even further, you'd find that it's because on each glancing blow, the eSoS weapon component would be around 35 damage on a glancing blow, while the frenzy and death frenzy component adds a total of 6d6 = 21 damage per glancing blow. Unlike many magical weapon effects, which have an additional glancing blow proc rate (in the 20-30% range) that must succeed before they occur on a glancing blow, the barbarian frenzy and death frenzy enhancement effects occur on every single (successful) glancing blow. So these enhancements provide about 38% of the glancing blow damage (and it's an even bigger portion of the glancing blow damage if DR is involved).

A fighter however does not have this component. Thus, for a fighter in the same setup, glancing blows are worth less since there is only the weapon component. In this case, using the eSoS, the fighter does around 189 damage on the main hit and only 34 damage on a glancing blow (halved when twitching of course). So a glancing blow, when twitching, is only worth around 8% of a fighter's damage compared with 11% of a barbarian's damage.

After Update 5, with the changes to the eSoS, when auto-attacking, the glancing blows (coming out on 75% of swings) will contribute around 21% of the main hit's DPS (or 17% of the total DPS) for a barbarian. Since twitching only gives a 19% attack speed increase over auto-attack, auto-attack gives more DPS. For a fighter however, because the glancing blows do not have the frenzy / death frenzy damage, the glancing blows only contribute around 16% of the main hit's DPS (or 13.6% of the total DPS). Thus, for a fighter using the eSoS, it is still preferable to twitch.

But anyway, you can see that for fighters, after Update 5, with GS weapons will be losing around 12.5% of their current DPS. Using the eSoS, fighters will be losing around 26% of their current DPS vs Velah and around 23% of their current DPS vs 50% fort 15 DR targets.

[emptysands]

Looks like you missed the extra +2 size damage for Ram's Might for total +3 damage (+1 from +2 STR and +2 from size).


Strength 34 : 18base +5level +6item +2ram's might +1human adaptability +2 tome.

Avg base damage:
5.5 avg GS khopesh
+5 weapon
+12 str (+6 offhand)
+2 Ram
+5 power attack
+7 holy
+14 FvNME
50.5 per hit (44.5 offhand)

Avg crit damage:
5.5 avg khopesh
+5 weapon
+12 str (+6 offhand)
+2 Ram
+5 power attack
+6 seeker
+14 FvNME
49.5 x 3 = 148.5 per crit (130.5 offhand)
+7 holy = 155.5 per crit (137.5 offhand)

Base attack rate @ bab20 = 88 attacks/min
current tempest attack rate = 97 attacks/min * 5/4 (tempest3) = 121 (97 offhand)
new attack rate = 88*105%*105% = 97 attacks/min (88 offhand)
*assuming tempest 3 extra main hand attack actually adds this amount. no values provided

Avg dps:
current:
avg dps main hand = [50.5 * (15/d20) + 155.5 * (4/d20)] * 121attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 139.1
avg dps off hand = [44.5 * (15/d20) + 137.5 * (4/d20)] * 97attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 98.4
total current TWF dps = 237.5


Not sure about your new numbers, but that is a 104% difference against the old numbers.




Let's see what happens when we compare the dps of a human twf tempest ranger, with a human thf frenzied beserker. I'm using human because it is a good average baseline race, and because I can compare the two styles independent of racial enhancements/abilities (not gonna count HV boosts). I'm also only going to compare only what each class/style brings to the table, so no external buffs, class specific raid loot, pots, or item clickies. Just the spells/enhancements/abilities that come with the build.

Assumptions: Min2 khopesh or Great Axe vs acid immune mob, + 6 stat items, bloodstone, 18 base Str, +2tomes, max damage related enhancements.
Sources: http://ddowiki.com/page/Enhancements
http://ddowiki.com/index.php?title=Attack_sequence&
http://ddowiki.com/page/Glancing_blow
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=201535

TWF tempest ranger
Strength 34 : 18base +5level +6item +2ram's might +1human adaptability +2 tome.

Avg base damage:
5.5 avg GS khopesh
+5 weapon
+12 str (+6 offhand)
+5 power attack
+7 holy
+14 FvNME
48.5 per hit (42.5 offhand)

Avg crit damage:
5.5 avg khopesh
+5 weapon
+12 str (+6 offhand)
+5 power attack
+6 seeker
+14 FvNME
47.5 x 3 = 142.5 per crit (124.5 offhand)
+7 holy = 149.5 per crit (131.5 offhand)

Base attack rate @ bab20 = 88 attacks/min
current tempest attack rate = 97 attacks/min * 5/4 (tempest3) = 121 (97 offhand)
new attack rate = 88*105%*105% = 97 attacks/min (88 offhand)
*assuming tempest 3 extra main hand attack actually adds this amount. no values provided

Avg dps:
current:
avg dps main hand = [48.5 * (15/d20) + 149.5 * (4/d20)] * 121attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 133.7
avg dps off hand = [42.5 * (15/d20) + 131.5 * (4/d20)] * 97attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 94.0
total current TWF dps = 227.7

new:
avg dps main hand = [43.5 * (15/d20) + 134.5 * (4/d20)] * 97attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 107.1
avg dps off hand = [41 * (15/d20) + 120 * (4/d20)] * 88attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 85.3
total TWF dps (new) = 192.4


THF frenzied berzerker barbarian
Strength 50 : 18base +5level +6item +12rage +2 frenzy +4death frenzy+1human adaptability +2 tome.

Avg base damage:
10.5 avg GS Great Axe
+5 weapon
+30 str
+16 PA
61.5 base per hit
+7 holy
+21 vicious = 89.5 per hit

Avg crit damage:
10.5 avg Great Axe
+5 weapon
+30 str
+16 PA
+6 seeker
67.5 x 5 = 337.5 per crit
+7 holy
+21 vicious = 365.5 per crit

Glancing blows:
61.5 base damage * 30% = 18.5 per hit
*estimated glancing blow damage, ddowiki. No info on FB extra effect proc rate.

Base attack rate @ bab20 = 88 attacks/min

Glancing blow rate = 88 * 3/4 = 66 attacks/min

Avg dps
avg main dps = [89.5 * (17/d20) + 365.5 * (2/d20)] * 88attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 165.2
glancing blow = 18.5 * 66attacks/min * 1min/60sec = 20.4
total THF dps = 185.4


Hopefully my calculations are correct.

p.s. The interesting thing I see is how much higher dps goes when all external factors are considered (buffs, songs, clickies, extra gear effects, etc). When people post 300+dps numbers, fully 1/2 to 1/3 of their dps comes from factors unrelated to the build. Are there truly gimped builds, or is it mostly just a lack of the right buffs and farmed gear? Makes me wonder just how far can you buff up and gear out a "gimped" build? Can you actually make it respectable with enough buff, fluff, and stuff?

[Enscriptor]

I'm not sure if someone has even hit on this point as this thread is getting a bit thick and I've skipped a few of the posts. However, there is almost no time when you are NOT moving and attacking save for a few specific instances. i.e. boss fight (maybe) and portals in shroud. 99% of this game is running around chasing mobs. No one EVER stands in one spot and fights some mobs. NEVER HAPPENS! EVER!!!! It can't! Either your running to mobs that are running after another character or your running to mobs that are running away from you to do range attacks or their just backing up (and jumping onto walls that you can't even hit untill everyone runs 5 miles away and they finally jump down).

After reading all the pros/cons people stating about this change I'm confused to think that someone is sitting there thinking, "Ok, we'll run to each pack of mobs, ENTIRE party stands still, we kill those mobs that AREN'T running from us or towards another or just plain running away, now move to next pack".

Are they serious? Have they even played this game? EVERY fight in the game is mobile except for a few boss fights which you don't normally even have extra mobs to do glancing on... We'll never have glancing blows again.

It all comes down to the fact that YOU NEVER STAND STILL AND ATTACK IN THIS GAME because YOU'D NEVER HIT ANYTHING IF YOU DID. Most Two Handed feats are worthless with this patch on the whole...

Thats my take on all this. Feel free to bash my idea or whatever. Its fact.

Spark!