Combat Feedback for Update 5. [Archive] - Page 15 - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

IronClan

06-07-2010, 02:55 PM

It was your comment in an earlier thread about the same thing.

You obviously have me confused with someone else :) I can't imagine why I would agree with you about two weapons being equal to one weapon, a major part of why TWF is overpowered has to do with having twice the possible weapon effects/bursts/stats etc..

What game are you playing? Because it's not DDO, that's been a narrowly focused min max game from the start. Welcome to MMOs by the way. So glad you could join us.

I've been playing MMO's since before they coined the term MMORPG, let alone when it got shortened to MMO...

BTW I've seen nerfs that would make your head spin based on your reaction to this TFW thing. I subscribed to the MMO that popularized and personified the term nerf for 8 years. Until you take a bunch of characters that took YEARS to grind to the cap; through a nerf that entailed the rebuilding of the entire combat system (no joke) from the ground up you don't know squat about nerfs. Nerfs bigger than this TWF change were a MONTHLY occurrence.

As for your point, I would agree that when DDO was dieing and headed for "fail" the user base probably had an unusually high number of the type of person who likes to endlessly grind the same things over and over to hone every last bit of optimal out of their character... Now the game is much healthier and the player base is being flooded with people who AREN'T end level grinding power gamers.

Yes I know your opinion is that everyone who plays DDO and MMO's is a powergamer... but that viewpoint is so totally absurd that it's not worthy of arguing against... That's not to say that most people don't care, just that most of them don't care to the point of extreme min maxing, and building their character with only Epic content in mind.

How many players have to run past you with a long sword, a shield or a bastard sword (insert sub optimal here) on a daily basis in the market for you to intuit something that is obvious to most people?

Fighters and Barbarians can stun the mob just fine without the +10. Most other classes don't have room for the feat, so they use weighted 5 for the auto stun since auto crit is the only way to contribute in epics. And now they can't do that. 1:20 dropped to 3:2,000.

Yawn, another epic/end game only viewpoint of the game... If it's not uber at 20th level it's useless...

I can see how this nerf would make you say the sky is falling... if your DDO world is composed of such a narrow focus the sky is probably falling... the good news is it was probably only a matter of time until it fell for some other reason, like boredom, or another MMO etc.

I know someone's going to respond to that by referencing some other MMO. Thing is, most other MMOs don't invalidate whole classes.

I don't even need to say anything here... Those are obviously the comments of someone who has very limited experience outside of DDO.

SquelchHU

06-07-2010, 03:50 PM

As for your point, I would agree that when DDO was dieing and headed for "fail" the user base probably had an unusually high number of the type of person who likes to endlessly grind the same things over and over to hone every last bit of optimal out of their character... Now the game is much healthier and the player base is being flooded with people who AREN'T end level grinding power gamers.

Now the game is being flooded with people who are the anti thesis of end level grinding powergamers. Gimps with 0% fort, and that take 200% of their maximum HP from one of Harry's fireballs on Normal who think they know everything, and often have a huge hate on for powergamers. Primarily because they actually do know something, even if they don't know everything. Now I'm not saying that you are a 100 HP gimp, but going from the primary player type being the grind = content type they've been marketing to for a while anyways to the type that wants the whole game gimped down because they haven't figured out how to click the right arrow next to their Constitution score at character creation is not an improvement. Quite the opposite.

And while not all players that are new are incompetent in this regard, most are for the simple reason they did not do their research. Otherwise I'd have failed just as badly in the beginning... but nope, I knew that Con was not in fact a dumpstat. It's not rocket science.

Yes I know your opinion is that everyone who plays DDO and MMO's is a powergamer... but that viewpoint is so totally absurd that it's not worthy of arguing against... That's not to say that most people don't care, just that most of them don't care to the point of extreme min maxing, and building their character with only Epic content in mind.

How many players have to run past you with a long sword, a shield or a bastard sword (insert sub optimal here) on a daily basis in the market for you to intuit something that is obvious to most people?

These statements amuse me in so many ways.

Let's break down why you're wrong this time.

1: Even most powergamers do not care about Epic. I mean really, you firewall and perch, and you auto crit. Maybe you use other stuff if it either has a super high DC or no DC at all. It's actually a lot easier than non epics, you just have to follow the program. Not all characters can participate in this, but it's not like there is any real forethought involved. Just grind grind grind.

2: In games all about the numbers, it is not at all unreasonable to assume people are here for the numbers, simply due to the lack of any other possibilities they could be here for. DDO is actually very tame about this by MMO standards - most of the others break entire encounters down into a mathematical equation so that you know before you even start you have x time to do this or you die, so you just need your dps high enough to do it at least 1 second faster than x and you win, otherwise you lose.

3: Citing F2P (not Premium) players is an invalid argument. They'll get to level 7 in a day and likely leave. If we did regard them as a valid argument, the correct conclusion to draw is that the typical DDO player is a total jerk... which is not true, but those who have no attachment to the game do tend to just do whatever and leave without caring.

Yawn, another epic/end game only viewpoint of the game... If it's not uber at 20th level it's useless...

I can see how this nerf would make you say the sky is falling... if your DDO world is composed of such a narrow focus the sky is probably falling... the good news is it was probably only a matter of time until it fell for some other reason, like boredom, or another MMO etc.

You fail at reading comprehension forever. Again.

Weighted's usefulness begins and ends at epic. You don't need auto stun anywhere else, DPS is faster or instant kills are faster. It is only in Epic you have huge piles of HP to grind down that you can't just bypass by say... instant death.

So yes, when something is only useful at level 20 it is indeed fair to discuss how it fares at 20.

Riddle me this - how many people here have even heard of Weighted prior to Epic? Yeah, you might have saw it before but it was like 'Ah ******, vendorbane +10' *sells to broker*

ShortRanger

06-07-2010, 05:15 PM

Engoril

06-07-2010, 05:39 PM

Your math is off. 10 attacks produces 11 attacks on average with a 10% chance. 20 attacks will produce 22 attacks on average.

There is a 10% chance to proc a double strike on each main hand attack. More attacks does equal more procs. And a 10% proc will average the same number of attacks as a 10% speed increase to attacks.

Think you are missing my point. You are correct for THF or S&B, but not TWF.

To use your example, currently if you are doing 20 attacks using TWF. Then 10 of those are main hand and 10 of those are off hand (numbers will vary depending on build, I'm thinking monk). With a 10% speed boost that increases to approximately 22 attacks (11 main hand, 11 offhand).

When the the U5 change comes in, those 20 attacks are nerfed down to 18 for the same time interval (10 main hand, and 8 offhand for monk). The previous 10% speed boost (for grandmaster wind) changes to a 10% double proc only on the main hand, so the 18 becomes 19 attacks ( 11 main hand, 8 offhand). So grandmaster air monks have effectively lost an extra attack by the change to a double strike chance, compared to other stances.

Is that any clearer?

(For convience and less complications, I am assuming GTWF using handwraps on a monk with constant haste so we don't have to worry about the other 15% speed boost of grandmaster air stance)

tasebro

06-07-2010, 06:13 PM

Just want ya to take a breather and think about things objectively...
...

First and foremost Z, thanks for replying. I do appreciate that.
Frankly I read your post 4 times and still do not fully grasp where you are coming from but I guess I am just not smart/savvy enough to have a valid opinion, but that never stopped me before.

...Ease off on the hyperbole, your build doesn't have ranger levels so will lose less than 10%...snip...The point of game balance is that the game wouldn't be fun without it.
...

Then we shall see, wont we?

...
But thing is dude, viability is not based on how powerful the build is compared to the content, it's based on how powerful the build is compared to other builds.
How powerful builds are compared to the content is how difficult/easy the game is....A...B...C
...

That is one way to rationalize.

Cost-benefit curve is a better yardstick tho:
Some builds cost significantly more than the yield benefit, while other builds benefit significantly more than they cost, which is as it should be (well built/played 28 point toons are SUPPOSED to be "better" than poorly built/played 32 point toons)--but regardless, the selection choice MUST belong to the player; and the dice--with the *guaranteed* chance to "throw natural 20s" the dice represent--must NEVER be taken from the players' hands; that is a fundamental of what DnD is, so I use that deviation as my measure; if there is no deviation in builds, then that is a red flag that something is very wrong (look at W0W fer instance).
So some builds are just flat "better" than others, and how that deviation interfaces with player preferences is the key to marketing your content: people *want* "better". Efforts to "rebalance" ALL builds into one zero-sum equation is not "game balance", no "futile" is what it is, as well as bad marketing, since the inevitable end result is mediocrity (which there is plenty of to go around already; then again mediocrity does sell VERY well to the lowest common denominator, just look at W0W).

Genre dictates that capped Pures SHOULD be over-the-top in terms of benefit-cost ratio (a la tier 3 Tempest), that is what "heroic" genre is all about. So too, well built synergy-based Multis should be even MORE over-the-top (in their specialized "synergy" niche), since smart building investments should be *abundantly* rewarded, not punished or tweaked into irrelevance.
The key considerations pursuant to these are:
1. Well-built pure/multiclass toons being "over-the-top" is GOOD in general;
2. asymmetrical spread between ALL the classes is GOOD in general;
3. Well-built, synergy-based multiclass cheese** is GOOD in general (especially spectacular "speed" builds in the modern FPS tradition where "speed-is-life");
...so therefore normalization/nerfs to these considerations in the name of "game balance" is antithetical to what DnD is all about--genre must ALWAYS trump "game balance" (which does not exist anyway beyond a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy), so if adjustments must be made, they must be made in favor of the investing player, or not at all, unless absolutely unavoidable for practical reasons (i.e. the only available alternatives are much worse).

...
...
Until they bring haste boost in line >;-)

tl;dr I don't quite get what you're griping about since your build likely got buffed.
...

Correction: I am not "griping" YET, since nerfdate 5 has not hit YET, so no loss for anyone...YET.
But I do know that nerfing Tempest that hard bugs me greatly (I have tempest builds too, so do a lot of ppl).
I also dont like seeing rogues get nerfed AT ALL; I am noticing they have a hard enough time as it is, so if anything, I think rouges should have a MUCH better selection of potential "power options" than ANYONE else--I do have to qualify that by pointing out that I dont build anything with more than a rogue splash, so it could just be that I see a lot of rog players who are horrible at playing dedicated rog...still I am not feeling the love on that front.

Aashrym

06-07-2010, 08:31 PM

Think you are missing my point. You are correct for THF or S&B, but not TWF.

To use your example, currently if you are doing 20 attacks using TWF. Then 10 of those are main hand and 10 of those are off hand (numbers will vary depending on build, I'm thinking monk). With a 10% speed boost that increases to approximately 22 attacks (11 main hand, 11 offhand).

When the the U5 change comes in, those 20 attacks are nerfed down to 18 for the same time interval (10 main hand, and 8 offhand for monk). The previous 10% speed boost (for grandmaster wind) changes to a 10% double proc only on the main hand, so the 18 becomes 19 attacks ( 11 main hand, 8 offhand). So grandmaster air monks have effectively lost an extra attack by the change to a double strike chance, compared to other stances.

Is that any clearer?

(For convience and less complications, I am assuming GTWF using handwraps on a monk with constant haste so we don't have to worry about the other 15% speed boost of grandmaster air stance)

In your example you are using 100% offhand proc rate. Using that example, the extra attack from the double also would have 100% chance to proc the extra offhand. Placing us at 22 attacks again. Double strikes also proc offhand attacks. That might what is throwing you off a bit.

A 10% double strike is the same same as a 10% speed bonus,which something you stated it was not. 10% double strike does give the same number of attacks as a speed bonus would for the same percentages.

That has nothing to do the 100% proc rate vs 80% proc rate listed above. It's the reduced proc rate, not the speed bonus that was translated to double strike causing your lower number of attacks.

Does that make what I stated any clearer?

Kaish

06-07-2010, 10:51 PM

Hullo,

First of all, I must admit, I did not read all the posts on the subject, so sorry if I say the same things as others did, but here is my little opinion:

Nerfing Tempest or TWF is missing the boat. Why? Simply because the problem could be reduce (probably not resolve, but still) by simply making Sword & Shield fighting style more appealing. Right now, its a joke, even with Enhancement like Stalwart Defense. The Ac gain and the bonus to the stat is way too low to make a difference and you get that awful slow thingy that make you vulnarable...

The other thing, is simply to make THF more appealing. Give more damage with that big sword.. more powerful glancing blow, a chance to knock someone out... I dont know... but something...

The last Shroud I was in, all the melee were TWF, except 1... So that is were your calculation overcharged problem is...

Make the other type of fighting more appealing, there will be less TWF.
Simple as that.

No one will be unhappy.
That is all

FluffyCalico

06-07-2010, 11:07 PM

Double strikes also proc offhand attacks.

It has been said several times that Double strikes do NOT proc offhands.

IronClan

06-07-2010, 11:14 PM

Now the game is being flooded with people who are the anti thesis of end level grinding powergamers. Gimps with 0% fort, and that take 200% of their maximum HP from one of Harry's fireballs on Normal who think they know everything, and often have a huge hate on for powergamers.

LOL so much anger over such trivial things... Not sure who you're lashing out at here, it's clearly not me obviously but seriously maybe take a break go out and enjoy some spring time or something :)

Let's break down why you're wrong this time.

1: Even most powergamers do not care about Epic.

2: In games all about the numbers,

3: Citing F2P (not Premium) players is an invalid argument.

1.... has absolutely nothing to do with proving that most players are powergamers. I agree about Epic and it's even MORE reason why DDO players shouldn't be focused ONLY on end game because without including Epic you have what? 2 level 20 quests and a couple raids to do over and over? Oh boy! let me zipp past all this lame low and mid level content so I can get to where the game REALLY starts...... um.... petering out... and um getting extra grindy and repetitious...

2....... is an assertion by you that doesn;'t seem to bear any relevance to proving that MMO's are filled with mostly min/maxers. It has a lot more to do with your perspective which you seem to think is universally shared... RPG's are only "all about numbers" for rules lawyers and min maxers, two types of player who were almost mythical in their rarity in my 30 years of DM'ing P&P, but appearently a huge number of them were in your experience...

I'd have to guess you're projecting your own viewpoint onto others, and I'd guess that because you're doing that exact thing right here in this thread.

Seriously the kind of player who went full tilt min/max in D&D were the ones even D&D players called "nerds"....

Go play NWN... you might play that game for months without running into ONE player who wants to tell you how "gimp" you are because you're using a non-optimal weapon... In fact having played it for years I can't recall ever hearing the word used there...

3.... Is an arbitrary distinction by you that has no rational basis to exist.... just "welcome to Squelch-land whatever I say is good enough for me, so it must be a fact..." just like the assertion above it...

Again how the heck do you reconcile the number of people running around with sub optimal gear if the majority of people are min maxing powergamers? Oh that's right you have to arbitrarily exclude F2P players then you have to assume that all the sub optimals are F2P, and then you have to invent a behavior (quitting on the first day) for F2P players that is pure fiction. All to justify your world view?

You fail at reading comprehension forever. Again.

Good grief how old are you?

Weighted's usefulness begins and ends at epic.
Riddle me this - how many people here have even heard of Weighted prior to Epic? Yeah, you might have saw it before but it was like 'Ah ******, vendorbane +10' *sells to broker*

Yeah I have a lowbie that uses SB with weighted weapons... so there you go... You've just learned a valuable lesson, don't couch your arguments in absolute terms that only require a single exception to send sinking to the bottom.

I get that you are only are capable of thinking in terms of what's uber at end game high level. That's fine for you, but stop projecting your ludicrously narrow vision of the game onto everyone else...

Oh and BTW the reading comprehension comments? Look just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they failed to understand what you wrote I know this may be hard for you to grasp but you might want to clear that up.

Aashrym

06-07-2010, 11:45 PM

It has been said several times that Double strikes do NOT proc offhands.

It was said additional attacks that were procced would not in turn proc additional attacks. It makes sense that offhand attacks that were procced by double strike could not produce another doublestrike; or that a double strike does not proc another doublestrike.

It makes sense that a double strike can proc an off hand to maintain the correlated speed bonus. If that is the case (it should not be) then we'll see how this really does go live.

Any other comments will be on the Lamannia forums on that topic.

Edit: to clarify, whether it does go live or not, I believe the double strike should proc the additional offhand.

mjrepro

06-07-2010, 11:57 PM

It was said additional attacks that were procced would not in turn proc additional attacks.

You said it right there, "Additional Attacks that were procced would not in turn proc additional attacks." If an offhand is a proc, and a doublestrike is a proc, then a doublestrike cannot proc an offhand, because that would be a proc proccing a proc.

Aashrym

06-08-2010, 12:03 AM

You said it right there, "Additional Attacks that were procced would not in turn proc additional attacks." If an offhand is a proc, and a doublestrike is a proc, then a doublestrike cannot proc an offhand, because that would be a proc proccing a proc.

It was also said each main hand attack could proc an off hand attack and the double strike procs a main hand attack. I may have misinterpreted that, we'll see. There is still time before this does go live for the final results.

I thought I had seen a post stating the main hand attack could proc the offhand, but I cannot find it now.

Calogrenant

06-08-2010, 01:07 AM

Alright, cut the bull with the double strike equals haste argument. It's flawed. And it deserves a whole thread of its own, might come up with it later.

Let's get this clear:
A 10% chance to proc an extra swing is definitely NOT the same as a 10% speed increase.

The magic word here, in case you missed it: Chance

You see, that word there means that you might always swing an extra time, or, that you might never actually throw said extra swing. On average, you should be swinging an extra hit on 1 out of 10 attacks. So you can come up with a nice statistics model showing how probabilities work, and explain in many cultivated and detailed and also, why not, arrogant words how in theory it should have the same effect on your dps, but at the same time there's no way you could dismiss the fact that...

...we got certainty replaced by randomness.

We went from having a 100% chance of having an extra attack on 1 out of 10 swings, to a 1 in 10 probability of throwing an extra swing each time you attack. Not the same thing.

Allow me to give you a colorful, sarcastic yet perfect example of this same thing translated to a real life situation.

Let's say you drive home from work early one day, and you find your house's door locked up with heavy chains.

A rather large sign on your door reads:
..."Hello! Since the resources on sewage and trash treatment were low, the electricity, telephone, freshwater and cable providers are having trouble investing in expanding their networks, and thus losing efficiency in their services, and since we also noticed that you only spend 10 out of 24 hours a day in your place, we decided that each time you want to spend an hour in your house, you'll roll a d24, and on 10 out of 24 times, you get to spend that hour at home! and every hour you're not there, someone else will be, using your bathroom, heating and cooling equipments, tv, in this way saving us all from having to invest in more pipelines or cable installations! And, after all, it's the same, right? You see, -and please follow us on this one- before, you used to be home 10 hours out of 24, now, on average, you'll get to spend the same time! In the end, the results are the same, nobody can argue it, right? We'll be improving the neighborhood in this way, we're awesome, thank you for your understanding and, specially, thank you for your taxes!!!..."

Then you start thinking - Yeah it's the sameOH wait! No it's not! If I roll an hour at home, but I'm at work I don't really need it! (got a double strike proc on a useless mob), and also, I need to sleep and that means needing to win 8 hours straight! (need to be able to always have that extra hit every ten in this raid!).

That's because in the end, under these circumstances, only a few times the need will coincide with the opportunity of satisfying said need. Which, yes, means this is another completely different set of probabilities.

Hope I managed to point out the big difference.

Now, you might be one of those guys who like to spend hours in a Casino and actually make a living out of it, and hence you're actually happy with this change, but, maybe you should consider that those out there -like me- who like to put effort in what they do, and in this way end up having certain control over the product of what we do, definitely never like to have certainty replaced by randomness.

Thank you, may you have a nice day.

Natashaelle

06-08-2010, 02:55 AM

Bug report. Ranged attack is not working, even on crates. I throw a returning throwing axe at breakables to save arrows.

Thread started on lamannia discussion and bug report submitted

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=253581

Sounds like the ammo bug -- switching to different ammo usually fixes it, but YES it's annoying when that one hits you...

Taimasan

06-08-2010, 03:02 AM

How about instead of a TWF nerf, lets use some of that WB and F2P money and upgrade the servers and equipment we use to play on to cut out on the lag. Cause there are otherr MMO's with alot more players in a instance/raid and alot of movement and calculations going on with no lags. Just sayin.

Macushi

06-08-2010, 03:31 AM

Agreed with many posts here. Pls dont change TWF combat mechanisms, is making too much a mess.
And what's the benefit of all this, perhaps NOTHING.
Could you pls change those laggish instances, portals, blades etc...
just my comment among many others

Grimtooth333

06-08-2010, 04:12 AM

like maybe just changing the few quests where lag is frequently present? crazy idea i know! much safer to change everything else but thechallenging protals, dumb-assed blades and giant chickens they are so proud of.
Amen brother.... +1.

tasebro

06-08-2010, 07:44 AM

...A 10% chance to proc an extra swing is definitely NOT the same as a 10% speed increase.[/B]

The magic word here, in case you missed it: Chance
...

You are so right.

Pretend I am your GM, and I emailed you the following memorandum: " So, yeah, you guys are taking too much of my time rolling all those d20 to-hit/damage checks, so I have decided that from now on, everyone except tempest rangers shall only hit on a 4+ (d20), and said rangers (the worsts offenders) shall only hit on a 5+ (d20)...and oh yes, I will still roll for monsters d20 to-hit checks at the usual 2-20...but this is going to be really cool, because it will improve Game Balance, and make the game more FUN! "

Would anyone here be cool with that nugget of Fun-by-Tyranny? because that is exactly what a 10% reduction in DPS means.

But then again, the above translation is not quite right either, because even on a "4 up" (or "5 up" in the case of tempest) hit check, you still had a CHANCE to roll a natural 20 for critical hit on 1, 2, or 3, (and 4 for tempest) where as eliminating the dice rolls altogether (a la nerfdate 5) eliminates 2 or 3 dice rolls altogether, so you loose even the CHANCE to roll a natural 20..and that does not even look at the elimination of Attack Speed Boosts and the extra dice rolls they are supposed to generate.

How is this acceptable to any player?

That fundamental chance to roll a 20 is vital: it represents the wildcard "Joker"--that remote but ever present random chance of good fortune that ones' actions can prevail in the worst circumstances in spite of all odds.
Call it "mystical cleverness bereft of reason", or "favor of the gods", or just call it "necessary exception that proves the rule", whatever you call it, that dice roll (i.e. the small chance to jackpot) is our direct interface to "heroic" in DnD.
When you eliminate that, you eliminate the whole point of heroic fantasy.
Clearly that principle is no longer a relevant consideration in DDO.

SquelchHU

06-08-2010, 09:04 AM

So I just put Alhaz/Chai on ignore. Labeling them together because he's even talking the same way now, making me question the possibility of sock puppets. This thread became much smarter.

I agree with all the statements to the effect of 'fix your servers to keep up'. Nerfing players because you don't have enough money to crunch their numbers is just going to result in you being in more of a financial bind, not less.

smatt

06-08-2010, 09:26 AM

Aspenor

06-08-2010, 09:52 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v448/ipalatt/die_thread_die.jpg

XenonTempest

06-08-2010, 11:43 AM

Oh, I forgot to mention in my post a couple of pages back, and got reminded when someone brought up double paralyzers.

Yeah, instead of doing a mainhand>offhand chain right now, which allows me to play with Imp.CurseSpew(Main) + Paralyzer/Smiting/Disruption(Off) (Which is much better than twin para/disrup/smiting in my book), Now i'll have a 80% chance of landing the second...

SquelchHU

06-08-2010, 12:41 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v448/ipalatt/die_thread_die.jpg

One moment.

Oh, I forgot to mention in my post a couple of pages back, and got reminded when someone brought up double paralyzers.

Yeah, instead of doing a mainhand>offhand chain right now, which allows me to play with Imp.CurseSpew(Main) + Paralyzer/Smiting/Disruption(Off) (Which is much better than twin para/disrup/smiting in my book), Now i'll have a 80% chance of landing the second...

Oh, it's worse than that.

Yeah, we played on Lammania earlier, my wife on her pure assassin rogue. It was pretty sweet to say the least, and we were not even hasted. The only thing that really sucks is if you were dual weilding different greensteels to get the advantages of both, the offhand is now worthless. Can't effectively do something like a Lit 2 in offhand with a Radiance in main hand, you'll never see a big boom lightning, and if you switch, you'll never blind anything. So now you have to make sure you match weapons, or use an Improved Destruction or something else that is reliable in offhand.

Not 'sees 20% less', but 'never sees'.

You know, for anyone out there who still thinks that TWF has any sort of advantage from the offhand. Doesn't matter how awesome the offhander is if it won't apply. Ever.

What's that? +15 Sword of Immunity Bypassing All Rolls Are 20 Vorpal? Sorry, if it's in your offhand you still fail.

Ok Aspenor, NOW the thread is dead. :D

R0cksteady

06-08-2010, 04:13 PM

So now that it's been tested and we know this does nothing for lag, can we drop this game and build breaking mechanic change and just scale DPS down instead? Just lower attack speed by 10% or something. Then it scales down all builds equally, instead of hitting some harder than others (Tempest and monk).

Maleth

06-08-2010, 04:21 PM

You obviously have me confused with someone else :) I can't imagine why I would agree with you about two weapons being equal to one weapon, a major part of why TWF is overpowered has to do with having twice the possible weapon effects/bursts/stats etc..

I've been playing MMO's since before they coined the term MMORPG, let alone when it got shortened to MMO...

BTW I've seen nerfs that would make your head spin based on your reaction to this TFW thing. I subscribed to the MMO that popularized and personified the term nerf for 8 years. Until you take a bunch of characters that took YEARS to grind to the cap; through a nerf that entailed the rebuilding of the entire combat system (no joke) from the ground up you don't know squat about nerfs. Nerfs bigger than this TWF change were a MONTHLY occurrence.

As for your point, I would agree that when DDO was dieing and headed for "fail" the user base probably had an unusually high number of the type of person who likes to endlessly grind the same things over and over to hone every last bit of optimal out of their character... Now the game is much healthier and the player base is being flooded with people who AREN'T end level grinding power gamers.

Yes I know your opinion is that everyone who plays DDO and MMO's is a powergamer... but that viewpoint is so totally absurd that it's not worthy of arguing against... That's not to say that most people don't care, just that most of them don't care to the point of extreme min maxing, and building their character with only Epic content in mind.

How many players have to run past you with a long sword, a shield or a bastard sword (insert sub optimal here) on a daily basis in the market for you to intuit something that is obvious to most people?

Yawn, another epic/end game only viewpoint of the game... If it's not uber at 20th level it's useless...

I can see how this nerf would make you say the sky is falling... if your DDO world is composed of such a narrow focus the sky is probably falling... the good news is it was probably only a matter of time until it fell for some other reason, like boredom, or another MMO etc.

I don't even need to say anything here... Those are obviously the comments of someone who has very limited experience outside of DDO.

I'm one of those casual players you are referring to so casually. I have a main at level 15 and I have been playing since F2P. Now that being said, I hate this change as much as ever other TWF that min/maxes. Why? Because it doesn't matter if you min/max or not. A nerf is a nerf and no gamer who at least tries to make a reasonable attempt to put out some semblance of DPS likes a nerf. How hard is that to understand?

And this is not a competition as to who's coconuts are bigger because you said something like "I walked barefoot uphill in the snow in 1972". Jesus, what kind of argument is that? People have their own experiences. Just because you view your own as superior doesn't mean jack...

Kalaxia

06-08-2010, 05:35 PM

Coupling the offhand to the mainhand collision is a great start, and as a programmer it makes sense to me. It may not be enough to reduce the lag completely, but it sounds like a reasonable start.

However, I don't see the need to lower the offhand % then. You've already taken 1 step towards eliminating the entire offhand collision calc, it shouldn't matter if players are still rolling 100% offhands at GTWF. Just leave GTWF at 100% offhand with the new system, and bump up THF damage to come closer (IMO, the effects proc % needs a heavy boost.) Then change stuff like tempest to 4-5% doublestrike per tier instead, and you're set.

Balance would be somewhat preserved, and some calcs are reduced.

Part 2: The next step would have to be more drastic to reduce lag further. I've seen mention of lowering all attack speeds, however there would need to be major rebalancing in order to accomplish this, or there would be a huge snowball effect. I'm not sure if this would mean even more doublestrikes? higher proc rates to even it out? higher burst damage since they burst less often? Much slower attack speed would need to be compensated somehow or the content would be heavily imbalanced.

IMO, part 2 of lag reduction sounds like something for the next patch after :)

Darkrok

06-08-2010, 05:42 PM

Zaal

06-08-2010, 07:09 PM

slow the combat engine down by 10%, decrease monster hp accordingly or bump up xp accordingly and the problem is solved - and nothing gets nerfed.

Calogrenant

06-08-2010, 09:18 PM

slow the combat engine down by 10%, decrease monster hp accordingly or bump up xp accordingly and the problem is solved - and nothing gets nerfed.

They tried doing what you said last year. Slowing down the animations. They had to insta-backpedal before the angry mob torched down turbine's buildings. And somehow they were right, because things were just too slow.

The solution here is, just like some guys said, to fix those quests that have certain mechanics that make them become laggy, like the shroud pretty much.

Cheers

Zaal

06-08-2010, 09:47 PM

argentstar

06-08-2010, 10:02 PM

Zaal

06-08-2010, 11:42 PM

yeah i suppose i see it that way too :(

Jovial

06-08-2010, 11:52 PM

Ill bet if the Devs would remove all current content and replace it with a nice game of checkers they could reduce the lag to almost nothing. problem solved! We could play for hams.

smatt

06-09-2010, 12:44 AM

They tried doing what you said last year. Slowing down the animations. They had to insta-backpedal before the angry mob torched down turbine's buildings. And somehow they were right, because things were just too slow.

The solution here is, just like some guys said, to fix those quests that have certain mechanics that make them become laggy, like the shroud pretty much.

Cheers You're right they can tweak damage per swing all over he place.... Ya, it'll **** off the "I need to uber and brag about my DPS" types. But MOST people won't care all that much as long as it's not drastic. But when they slow the whole game down.. Well then it's not fun for a VAST majority.

I think, if people actually read what Eladrin has said :rolleyes: Good luck there... And gather all that he's said in the last 10 days, they would get that this isn't jsut about the Shroud, or ToD, or current DPS lag in 12 man instances... Sure, thsoe things are part of it.. But it seems that they've more or less hit a wall as far as DPS goes.... And in very short order the same problems we see in the Shroud etc now, will manifest in more quests within more groups with less than ideal top gear and builds. They have no room to move things up, so they need to dial things back in the problem areas. This is likely also the reason some PrE's aren't out yet.... And it seems, to appease, they're also going to dial back general mob hit points to go along with some of this. Eladrin very rarely says things straightout... He beats around the bush a lot... You have to read what he says and then consider everything else he's said and piece it all together...

Now, it looks like what they already tried, which was clearly PARTIALLY implemented, didn't have the desired affect.. And of course the crybaby crowd of self-annointed know-it-alls came out and said it was a complete failure.. No... What it means is back to the drawing board and a new build which will likely come out at the end of this week or next week. But to say after one run inthe Shroud.. And perhaps a run or two somewhere else that it's a failure is stupid... I'm glad the people saying such thigns don't test anything else I have to use.. They suck at it :D It was couple runs and probably provided a bit of information..... But absolutely 0 conclusions...

This idea that it's that it's purely punitive, as well as all the mass hysteria, and gross exageration is pathetic to be honest. Sure;y, soem of the upcoming changes will be painful for some people.. And that sucks... But int he end.. It looks like they need to change a lot wiothin the combat systems, and it's likely goign to not onyl be to toons persay. But also on the back end, client, as well as possibly network adjustments.

Just because they aren't saying what they're doing doesn't mean they aren't doing other things... Heck, if I were Eladrin I wouldn't say **** on these forums the way he gets treated.... In fact I'd say some are lucky he's apperently not the vindictive type.... :eek: If it were me in his shoes........

There's been a few very knowledgable players that have thrown out some good ideas, and opinions, and some people who THINK they're all that and this... Who have simply thrown out a bunch of exagerated BS over and over and over and over... And then there' s a whole bunch of people jumping on the band wagon when they hear the propaganda of the few......

I predict major changes to the combat system, simply to allow the game to grow... I don't think that it's going to hurt any one class as much as peopel think, when all the changes are taken into account, over the next update or 2....

Macushi

06-09-2010, 12:55 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe7Kti6vPnM

Is this good now? IMO LAG looks even worse.
PLS stop this TWF MESS.

Kalaxia

06-09-2010, 02:45 AM

Aspenor is right. Let this thread die. The Devs stopped paying attention after 1/2 way through page 1. This nerf is comming. There is absolutly nothing anyone can say or do to stop it. Yes, there are many many ways to fix the lag without this nerf but it's the nerf that they want. They couldn't give a rats behind about the lag or they would have addressed it a long time ago in a completely different way.

I don't know about Turbine, but many developers will often ask for feedback on major issues in a discussion thread, and then step back and let the players go back and forth without intervening, even tho they are still reading it. There are often less constructive posts between players when the devs keep sticking their noses in ;)

Here let's see...

Hey Eladrin, you see this? Mic check 1 2 3. Is this thing on?

auzrael

06-09-2010, 03:34 AM

My relatively insignificant feedback is based purely on the numbers.

Seems to me that this action, however good it may be at a programming level, is poor at the 'game' level - as it indeed reduces the long standing effectiveness of 2wf.

In my mind, GTWF should deliver the 100 pct dual wielding possibility. Tempest should then be delivering chances to double attack with the off hand in order to match the current '3rd hook' you can get, and 'speed replacement' double attacks should apply to both main and off hand.

Then you do not reduce your 2wf.

Of course - if the 'hidden' intention is to nerf 2wf to bring it back a little closer to 2hf, then so be it - but just come out and say that this is seen as a desirable design result. Players analyse stuff down to the millionth degree, so dont waste time and burn tempers 'hiding' a nerf/balance under an engine fix.

Jarlow

06-09-2010, 04:13 AM

Lets say my off hand in double strike hits at 80% then is it my second hand has a 20 roll to hit with the penalty for two weapons if the 80% works first then the proc of my bounes for the weapon. Thats if my main hand weapon hits with my two weapon penalty for the chance at the 80%.?

Jarlow

06-09-2010, 04:19 AM

wy is the fighter being gimped when that gimps the hole group on a quest?

Jarlow

06-09-2010, 04:27 AM

Iv seen people throw numbers out like they dont lie<but people due and they make no sense if u do the math>

weewoo0

06-09-2010, 04:33 AM

[QUOTE=smatt;3024658]
Now, it looks like what they already tried, which was clearly PARTIALLY implemented, didn't have the desired affect.

you could even take their physics doubling up even farther. apply it to the dmg roll the hit roll and the many other roll i'm sure they hide from us >.> .... this would solve a bit of the lagg by simply halfing the amount of calculations. leave our attack speeds and proc rates along (tick fewer people off) barely touch our DPS (you roll a 1... well thats 2 1s... ;) ) and you get people to stop yelling DoOoOooOoOooOoM..... maybe.... i'd say lets save my hide here (2 TWF chars >_<) but idc at this point i'd just like to see how this'd affect lagg.
and taking GTWF's main benefit (the extra offhand strikes) and turning it into an 80%... erm.... doesn't that make another roll? to replace the physics check you just got rid of? 2 (physics checks) -1 (eliminated offhand physics check) + 1 (do i get an offhand attack? check) = 2 total checks still.... and you ticked off people in the process... in truth lagg is lagg lets just say you won't fix it make us all happy!!!! (lagg is primarily based on the individual computer's end anyways if you have a low spec comp in the grp..... lagg has found its way in)

oh btw for you PnP guys out there. how many of you ACTUALLY rolled for every swing of your weapon? and i means all of them!!!

(had to edit it as i went... apparently P I S S is **** while tick ain't)

Jarlow

06-09-2010, 04:40 AM

i was whanting 2 simplify but u said it better what does it have to do with lag<but if the game is old on the bought out servers for what game warner bros>

Jarlow

06-09-2010, 05:03 AM

It will affect lag if less chance to roll for it it ends all proc at main hand for most toons with out twf>

Jarlow

06-09-2010, 05:06 AM

only on quests though but frees up game server

Jarlow

06-09-2010, 05:12 AM

If your going to minimize space for more room for another game with out telling people who have paid would this not be the way?

Zaal

06-09-2010, 09:47 AM

But when they slow the whole game down.. Well then it's not fun for a VAST majority.

Just throwing out ideas here... perhaps just the raids can be slowed down but again, to offset the slowdown, monster hp can be reduced, bonus xp, etc... :)

+1 for ya both!!!! ;)

Kalaxia

06-09-2010, 06:08 PM

Just throwing out ideas here... perhaps just the raids can be slowed down but again, to offset the slowdown, monster hp can be reduced, bonus xp, etc... :)

Actually.. that would work just fine, but I would handle it a different way and go the route of the ICC WoW buff. You wouldn't need to adjust the mobs or xp or anything then.

When you enter the Shroud (or whatever raid), there's an aura buff that hits all players, something like:

Tainted Aura of Whatever:
- This buff decreases all attack speed (and casting speed?) by 25%, but increases all damage rolled by 25%.

25% is obviously just a wild number. It would have to be balanced somehow, or it could cause problems.

It could work tho... if done correctly.

Krag

06-09-2010, 06:33 PM

Actually.. that would work just fine, but I would handle it a different way and go the route of the ICC WoW buff. You wouldn't need to adjust the mobs or xp or anything then.

When you enter the Shroud (or whatever raid), there's an aura buff that hits all players, something like:

Tainted Aura of Whatever:
- This buff decreases all attack speed (and casting speed?) by 25%, but increases all damage rolled by 25%.

25% is obviously just a wild number. It would have to be balanced somehow, or it could cause problems.

It could work tho... if done correctly.

Or just add some Hat of Nerf Bat that consists of 5 rare ingredients and allows you to grab loot in the last part.

Zaal

06-09-2010, 06:53 PM

Now we're getting somewhere! Thanks for entertaining the idea and yeah, regardless of the "plus" to offset the "minus", hell yes it's workable! :D

And, no global nerf to the combat system!!!!!! :p

Zistra

06-10-2010, 12:04 AM

Since nobody (and specifically the devs) has seen fit to comment, I wish to revisit this now, some 50 pages later:

Under the title: What we don't know about lag..

Which is to say ALMOST EVERYTHING. We know nothing (best I can tell) about the sources of lag or what the Devs are considering to address them except for what the OP has mentioned. So how can we intelligently debate whether the proposed change(s) will fix the problem(s)? Here are the things I can think of from the mushroom-like place wherein I dwell.

1. Is lag a math-based problem? If so, the proposed change to the physics check has a decent chance to improve it. Heck, if that check is being made on every swing, clearly that is a programming problem to begin with.. swing frequency increases over time MUCH faster than movement speed does. A target in range and hittable is far less likely to not be by the next swing when the swings are closer together. Tie the physics check to time passage, rather than swings and you will reduce its frequency considerably in higher-level content. Probably more than just by turfing the one for the offhand attack. Determine once per interval which target(s) are hittable and which are not. This leaves open the ability for a TWFer to hit different targets with main and offhand; the OP does not seem to clearly indicate whether removing the 2nd physics check for the offhand will.

2. Is lag a communications problem? Is it about propagating too much information to/from each client? If so, pick a point at which to aggregate said information but potentially allow after-the-fact access to the detailed combat log for those addicted to dissecting the play-by-play post-mortem {hmm.. possible bad choice of term ;) }

3. Is lag a programming issue? Is there some piece of code that requires optimization, and in what respect? Can the worst cause(s) be somehow offloaded to dedicated hardware?

4. Is lag a purely load-based issue? Would throwing more hardware at it make a difference? If so, what kind of hardware? Could you somehow instance the few quests that trigger the issue onto a dedicated server? How many such would be required to make the problem go away? I'd live with a waiting list to start a run cause all the dedicated servers were in use...(within reason, of course).

5. Is lag truly only a problem in certain quests? Can those quests simply be rewritten to avoid it?

************************************************** ********
Strong opinion follows... not all argument provided due to space constraints:

I am categorically opposed to any change that many are willing to state forces over 50% of players (80% maybe?) to reroll or respec their toons completely and invalidates all the effort they put into customizing gear. This is a game-breaker. Our entertainment is not supposed to frustrate us to this extent. I am unlikely to be able to continue to play this game myself, and I hear others with similar opinions. Refunding our VIP monies is the least they should do for those of us driven away by such a sweeping change, forget about allowing free TR's or Greensteel rebuilds for those who stay. This changes the product I bought into something virtually unrecognizable. Not fair to do that to any product AFTER purchase. Nerfing is ALWAYS A BAD IDEA. Maybe power creep is a problem, but the solution is to not release power upgrades until they are completely sure they will never be reconsidered, not to rewrite half the combat system after several years in business.

I vote no to the TWF nerf. If you want our input into how to resolve the lag problem, provide us with more information on that problem, not on your proposed 'solution', which looks far too unrelated from here.

Conclusion: NERFS IS BAD! Always!! But the longer the 'status quo' has gone on, the worse it is to nerf it. People have invested their time, thought, effort and real $$$ into speccing toons based on a system that has been consistent for the 7 months or so I've been playing DDO. It is NOT RIGHT to take their valuable effort and invalidate it. It is borderline fraud to change the product we purchased into something less valuable to us AFTER we have bought and paid for it. Power creep is good, by overwhelming comparison. It makes people happy when you give them more. TOO MUCH power creep is bad. But there should be an expiration date on nerfs.. if it isn't necessary to nerf it within 30days, it ain't broke enough... Don't nerf it! Why the #*(@& would you alienate your most dedicated paying customers? Bad business.

Not that there's any evidence any Dev has been reading this thread for the past several days...

Zistra

06-10-2010, 12:17 AM

Of the 3500+ posts in this thread (of which I have read well over 2000... oh my aching head!), probably 80% have been more about game balance than lag. Perhaps the game balance actually does need addressing. I play all kinds of toons, and don't find the need that compelling... certainly not enough to generate the level of aggro the OP has ;).

OTOH, there have been some excellent suggestions in this thread for improvements that would be positive, rather than nerfs. Suggestions like new ways of looking at shield bashes, or feats. I hope the devs consider some of those suggestions, as I feel they would add value to the game.

What they are not, as 99% of the posts are not, is any help in addressing the lag issues... ANY lag issues... because the devs have simply not provided us enough information about lag in ANY of its supposedly multitudinous forms to even form an intelligent opinion about it, let alone make helpful suggestions. So let this thread die, not because it has been hashed to death, but because IT HAS BEEN IRRELEVANT FROM THE BEGINNING!!! And it's the OP's fault for a bad initial post. Bad in that it linked 2 unrelated things (Lag and Game Balance) and worse in that it provided no basis on which to debate the critical one (Lag). For shame, Eladrin.

AbsynthMinded

06-10-2010, 03:45 AM

Since nobody (and specifically the devs) has seen fit to comment, I wish to revisit this now, some 50 pages later:

Under the title: What we don't know about lag..

Conclusion: NERFS IS BAD! Always!! But the longer the 'status quo' has gone on, the worse it is to nerf it. People have invested their time, thought, effort and real $$$ into speccing toons based on a system that has been consistent for the 7 months or so I've been playing DDO. It is NOT RIGHT to take their valuable effort and invalidate it. It is borderline fraud to change the product we purchased into something less valuable to us AFTER we have bought and paid for it. Power creep is good, by overwhelming comparison. It makes people happy when you give them more. TOO MUCH power creep is bad. But there should be an expiration date on nerfs.. if it isn't necessary to nerf it within 30days, it ain't broke enough... Don't nerf it! Why the #*(@& would you alienate your most dedicated paying customers? Bad business.

Not that there's any evidence any Dev has been reading this thread for the past several days...

With no argument, Nerfs ARE bad.. I would add that the issue of lag is always either core code based, memory leaks and the like, or hardware and throughput based, login server issues and peak usage lag.

The DEVs never really cared too much about our opinions to begin with if such opinions were counter to their agenda, so their lack of commentary should not be taken personally.

That said the DPS lag as it has been named is being caused by the Greensteel crafting system and the sheer number of added computations the system was not designed to handle well. Over time the players are reaching 20, and over time they start crafting Green Steel. There after, toons at a minimum level are gaining Greensteel equipment. The number of procs on armor and items plus the various burst damage and crit modifiers.. It's staggering, no doubt..

Its all a problem they created.. I would have the balls to say Greensteel Crafting stops on X date. Then release the bound flags on all the existing Greensteel Items. Possibly make them unable to be attuned as to make them always take perm damage over time. As well retool all the high end content to be in better balance with the new reality. Oh, and a full hardware overhaul or migration.

Zaal

06-10-2010, 09:47 PM

Well, it would be fair to say that the resources inside a RAID are a bit more intensive than those on a 6 man instance.

Heck, the game didn't have a raid when it started out and now that code has to content with multiple raids running concurrently.

And yeah, it's easy to see how greensteel contributes to the problem since the weapons have so many procs.

Perhaps there should be a dedicated RAID server using SSD's for database access that flush to the default server once the users leave the instance.

But really, I fall back to slowing down RAID combat and offer incentives to players for having to deal with it, like more damage or reduced hitpoints or more xp.

I don't think its fair so slam the devs though... We the player base wanted crafting and we got it. Sure we didn't want it mess up our game but we also wanted it to be powerful. And turns out we got a bit of both :rolleyes:

Zistra

06-11-2010, 01:27 AM

OK, so here's my opinion about lag. It is, of course, based on no DDO-specific information, since the devs have not seen fit to offer any.

It is almost impossible to overload a processor with simple calculations. I don't care how many weapon effects you have occurring simultaneously, those are incredibly simple mathematical calculations. If there is lag, it is almost certainly either bad code (REALLY bad), there are FAR more complex calculations going on than we can see (exactly what IS a 'physics check') or it is a communications throughput issue. It is a (relatively) simple thing to overload bandwidth, especially with a multitude of small packets... even moreso when each packet requires confirmation to be returned. The usual solutions are to aggregate information or to simply determine what information is critical and send only that when things get close to overload. Network managers have been developing the tools for some 3 decades now to determine exactly what is happening on any given swamped connection and identify the nature of the bottlenecks. Reducing the data sent in total (without changing its nature) is never more than a bandaid fix... IMHO, that's what the proposal to reduce DPS (as it relates to lag, rather than game balance) amounts to.. a bandaid fix when exploratory surgery is what is required.

So what information IS being passed back and forth during combat? Can it be reduced? Aggregated? Can some be delayed? Modified in some other way? Is there any non-combat information that can be streamlined? The suggestion to turn off the 'Who' search by default is an example. If that has ANY effect, clearly at least PART of the problem is in bandwidth management. Maybe each player's connection should be tested at sign-in and those with slow connections either denied access to raids or shunted to specific servers where the speed of combat is reduced as necessary to compensate. The key is that if there is ANY way to reduce lag without impacting MOST of the player base (especially the paying player base), then those avenues need to be investigated FIRST.

And if you want useful input on a subject, provide some useful information on which to base that input. You have a ton of very talented, very dedicated people playing this game. Why NOT make use of their expertise FOR REAL?

samthedagger

06-11-2010, 01:34 AM

oh btw for you PnP guys out there. how many of you ACTUALLY rolled for every swing of your weapon? and i means all of them!!!

Yep. Ran an epic-level game. Had a two weapon fighter in the group. And he rolled for EVERY attack, EVERY round.

Players like rolling dice.

*shrug*

Tharum_Ironblood

06-11-2010, 06:00 AM

So DPS lag is different to solo lag in the explorer areas ? I haven't read all 7 million posts in here yet. So if i swap my hard ground out off hand weapon for say a shield, there will be no more lag, no more running into walls in explorer areas because the enemy have swapped out their off hands too ? I wont randomly DC when entering the desert, hunger will cease in third world countries, oil companies will research more into hydrogen fuel cells. OMFG down on your knees *******. We have been saved.

Seriously tho the new game will be called what "Stormreach - A fantasy MMO loosely based on an awesome game that we now have nothing in common with"

Not sure if its my middle age kicking in or what but **** I am loosing heart here.

Please stop moving the goalposts to cover up your inabilities to make it work with all the money I and others have paid you over the last 4 years.

I have ranted and will now return to my lag free cave where I can climb ladders first time, every time.

Has anyone heard of Pac-man the MMO as I will soon have some dollars to spend every month.

Harriet

Metuselah

06-11-2010, 06:45 AM

The nerf is an obvious sign of the games downfall, aka start of the "game broken-ness". The reason for the nerf is simply to create a purchasing increase in order to compensate. This will then lead to other things which cumulativly break the game and thus a waste of everyones time and money. These money hungry goons are going to milk the nerf unless enough people speak up and scare those vultures off. This is an angry post and the words were chosen for that reason, its a harsh taste of reality. I have now spent well over $70 on the game and to be blindsided by this scam, yes i say blindsighted because ddo has a very posotive reputation in the gameing community and for a low end trick like this to start is in my book qualafied to be termed as blind sighted. I am distgusted with this turn of events and most defenitly will be moving to another game as well as continueing to rally people to realize whats at stake.

chubbs99

06-11-2010, 07:25 AM

You know, I and probably others wouldn't have such a hard time swallowing this change if along with these proposed changes was a complete rework of everything "broken" or at least everything needing to be fixed.

I would have absolutely zero issues with the combat changes if at the same time

AC was changed to mean something. I've mentioned this earlier in the thread, but my idea is having at level, melee being able to hit trash 90% of the time, red bosses 80% of the time, and purple raid bosses 70% of the time. While these numbers may not be realistic in DnD, we all know anything is possible in DDO.

For a full BAB class with say 32 str. 20 (bab) + 16 (str) + 5 (weapon) + 2 (GH) + 4 (bard song) = +47 to hit. So, say Trash's AC around 50, Red names around 52, and Raid Bosses around 54.
Similar can be done to monster vs Player AC to bring somewhat of a ballance. However monster should probably be hitting at a higher %, but still less then current. Maybe say when CR = Player Level Trash hits 70%, Red hits 80%, Raid Boss hits 90-100%

Wasn't thinking the last edit through very well. What I'm meaning is say CR 20 vs Player level 20. Assuming To hit is about the same (which it isn't and shouldn't be for all mobs), A player with 50 AC can expect to be hit 70% of the time by trash, say 80% by red, and 90-100% by Raid bosses. Obviously these numbers are silly, but without knowing 100% what a good mob To hit spread is for any given CR level, its hard to provide constructive Player AC examples.

Combine the AC change with Off Hand nerf and players will be hitting ALOT less making the server happy. To make the players happy Mob health can be scaled back accordingly.

Now to keep casters in check (sorry guys), while making them still more useful then haste bots in most instances, Make Spell Resistance effect ALL spells. Increase mob SR accordingly, and get rid of blanket immunities (including bosses, replace with reasonable resistance, or absorption %). This way if done similar to AC %'s a caster can hit a raid boss ~70% of the time, while some may QQ, this will still allow them to provide some DPS support.

This will make AC actually important, and make Spell Pen more important. While at the same time keeping things challenging at higher levels and keeping the server from wanting to committing Harakiri. Call it DDO v2.0 if you want to, but at least bundle it all up into 1 update so that everything is fixed at the same time rather then a little here, a little more 6 months done the road, and maybe eventually when we are back to pre EU subscription rates everything is where you (Turbine) want and combat works, players are happy, and servers are happy.

aggietex84

06-11-2010, 09:04 AM

Ok, I'm trying to grasp all the hidden effects and changes that are going on here, if anyone wouldn't mind helping explain I'd greatly appreciate it. If someone could just correct the following list for me whenever I mess up, so I can see where I misread/misunderstood the change, it would be greatly appreciated.

A. Monks and Rangers with with TWF feats will not lose any attacks/second compared to what they are now.
B. Fighters and Paladins with proper feats will lose some 20% offhand attacks/second, and gain some 10% mainhand attacks/second (plus whatever double strikes proc from abilities)
C. Builds with no TWF feats will lose ALOT of offhand attack/second. (or has this changed from previous? have they always had less offhand attacks?)
D. Haste will no longer give more attacks/second.
E. Melee alacritiy is no more and will not give more attacks/second.
F. Items that boost attack speed are being removed/changed entirely.

Forgive me for not reading the 100+ pages of whines about "I DON'T UNDERSTAND BUT ITS A NERF, I HATE NERFS, YOU RUINED MY LIFE!!! FIX IT NAO" and the subsequent 10+ pages of smart resourceful information and reasonable questions; but I just don't have the time...

IronClan

06-11-2010, 10:33 AM

These changes are interrelated and all part of a complex system, it's amazing that a user base that can analyze and appreciate tiny min/max single digit or low double digit percentage improvements in their character builds from multi classing "synergy's" apparently have such a massively hard time understanding these nearly identical interrelationships in the combat system...

The last two pages seem to be people who are holding on to the false hope that this nerf is purely intended to improve lag. They intend to nerf TWF for balance reasons; this intent is clearly stated in the summery of developer replies to this thread as reposted below:

italics are the common question or statement some are actual posts some generic
Dev responses in BOLD yellow
Any comment or opinion I add is in normal text

* FIX/UPGRADE the SERVERS instead of nerfing!!!111ONE1
We've already given DDO major upgrades to servers and datacenter, so continued "upgrade your hardware" comments are not contributing to the discussion in a productive manner.

*"Why not just fix lag in raids instead of nerfing" or "You're trying to trick us by hiding a nerf in a lag fix"
I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting.

They aren't nerfing because of lag, they are nerfing due to balance issues, and at the same time they are getting a (small see the lama forum Dev posts) synergy bonus from the nerf (less off hand attacks) that will help lag I believe they put the number around 10%. In addition they are replacing stacking haste boosts to reduce lag (see below)...

* why double strikes and why nerf TWF and fix lag at the same time
[we need to reduce] the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes, [double strike] significantly reduces the overhead in a bunch of the calculations
Implicit: TWF and double strike are interrelated Double strike is necessary to replace speed boosts, specifically. But some balancing of TWF is needed or double strikes would be overpowered (and of course the earlier statement that they feel TWF holds "extreme dominance" over everything else.

* I don't see how this is going to reduce lag. You're replacing physics collision calculations with % proc calculations
Some things are very light, performance-wise. "Chance to proc" is one of the lightest calculations available.

*So a year ago you guys introduce Dungeon Alert to get rid of lag, that evidentally didnt work at all.
Dungeon Alert was meant to control one particular source of lag. (Specifically, pathing and perception systems of large numbers of monsters in a small area, since that's an n^2 problem.) It was never expected to banish all of it. Likewise, these changes are not expected to banish all forms of lag, but should help some of them.

*if this works to lessen the lag, can we finally do away DA
Dungeon Alert actually does help by making it suboptimal to create situations where there are a large number of monsters in a small area. (Dungeons where it automatically triggers through no action of your own need to have their spawns changed.)

* Who cares if lag is reduced if mobs take 50% longer to kill, The sky is falling, DoooOOoooMMMMm etc.
Monsters would take 50% longer to kill only if the off-hand chance was reduced to zero, and a chance to attack under 100% was applied to the main hand as well. (As main hand attacks deal more damage than off-hand, with the exception of the monk.) Depending on who's numbers you trust (and what class/feats) TWF DPS will be lower anywhere from 8%-14% to 16-17%.

*So basically instead of improving the servers communication to get rid of the dps lag you are just going to take the easy way out and nerf twfing
We're attacking the problem from many directions.

In other words there's no simple easy fix to lag... there's also no simple painless way to fix the power creep this game has obviously undergone since GS crafting and monty hall weapon effects (and things like double smites) made TWF the defacto standard.

AbsynthMinded

06-11-2010, 11:28 AM

Zistra

06-11-2010, 02:40 PM

IronClan

06-11-2010, 02:45 PM

I agree with what you're saying with the exception that I don't agree about people wanting the game to be more like D&D. This nerf actually makes TWF more like core D&D rules (except the double strike mechanic but that's haste not TWF). In D&D TWF is mostly attractive to RP'ers, character concept or "philosophy" builds and people who just love Drizzt. or all or parts of the above. That is to say it's FAR from the most dominant playstyle as it is in DDO.

Also I would submit that if DDO instituted several movement rules that they've ignored, such as fatigue/sprinting, not being able to cast spells reliably while jumping, and several others lots of very vocal veteran players would hate hate hate it due to slowing down the game and virtually eliminating zerging.... The game would be far more D&D like but people here by in large don't really want that, at least the most vocal players here don't. They seem to want D&D flavored Half Life 2 without the slower movement and momentary sprint key... Or maybe that's Quake 4 haven't played quake since 3 so who knows.

Some of the best FPS's ever made have slower movement + sprint key and as a result they are MORE tactical and MORE popular but for some reason it's just anathema here.

The above would also lower lag by virtue of lowering the density of combats on a server, slow the players down and combat encounters take longer to get to. Spreading them out a little. But apparently this idea or slowing down combat a little is a poison pill to a great deal of the most vocal players on the forums...

Coming from NWN, it seems hard for me to fathom, but it doesn't seem there's a lot of cross over of players between the two games.... Probably because NWN players got used to slower paced non twitch combat, along with a much better implementation/adaptation of the core rules, and that along with the twitchy style of DDO and perhaps maybe the extreme amount of "elitist" build criticism that goes on, kind of turn them off, I know it nearly put me off to DDO... Only F2P kept me playing.

Sarr

06-11-2010, 02:54 PM

Athlonpv

06-12-2010, 06:49 AM

macros123

06-12-2010, 08:06 AM

Exactly. In my opinion TWF got too good overall, and I always wanted to see it nerfed because it was imbalanced in my opinion.

I still want to see TWF and THF / ranged totally equal in cost and in power. I am very experienced Dungeon Master, winning some contest in the past, and I know that's not how D&D was built. But in D&D DM can always adjust everything behind the curtain and no one will ever know he wasn't transparent about it.

D&D 3.0 and 3.5 was just very imbalanced, because it didn't even need any balance beyond being "believable". If you delved deep into rules, they were really not that perfect. That's why most good DMs modified them to better suit THEIR campaign.

Here, Turbine has much harder job. Well, 1000x harder job that average DM ever had. Especially when they could go Warhammer Online route and never have complaints about Warhammer rules, be it miniature s's or RPG-game's, because Warhammer Online... just doesn't use ANY Warhammer rules :).

That's why I'm worried and almost sure than next DDO MMO may be just Forgotten Realms fluff, some random dice fluff and... no D&D rules at all. Or just very little of them.

But back to the topic - yes, this is TWF nerf, and not only TWF nerf. And it may help lag a bit, but was never intended to fix it. That was clear from the start, Turbine said it themselves. They just didn't say "hey, we want to nerf TWF". Well, they're not that suicidal, I guess?

No one would care that TWF and THF were equal in power except for the fact that TWF DOES COST MORE. That anyone can create any character with 18 STR and throw him a decent greataxe can equal someone who has been forced to dedicate 15 Dex, 3 feats and twice the weapon costs is ridiculous.

If they are going to be equal in power then they NEED to be equal in cost.

And as an aside, the amount of time between when this thread was begun asking for our opinions to the time that Lamania went live was very small. I am fairly certain that a change as significant as this was not programmed in so short a time, and that this was going to happen no matter what the population had to say about it.

smatt

06-12-2010, 12:49 PM

No one would care that TWF and THF were equal in power except for the fact that TWF DOES COST MORE. That anyone can create any character with 18 STR and throw him a decent greataxe can equal someone who has been forced to dedicate 15 Dex, 3 feats and twice the weapon costs is ridiculous.

If they are going to be equal in power then they NEED to be equal in cost.

And as an aside, the amount of time between when this thread was begun asking for our opinions to the time that Lamania went live was very small. I am fairly certain that a change as significant as this was not programmed in so short a time, and that this was going to happen no matter what the population had to say about it. LOL, no they don't.... Taking different classes and only taking into consdieration DPS output while ignoring or not utilizing all the other aspects of those classes is a player choice.. Cost of a build should ahve nothign to do with the power of said class DPS wise...

Ebondevil

06-12-2010, 01:44 PM

LOL, no they don't.... Taking different classes and only taking into consdieration DPS output while ignoring or not utilizing all the other aspects of those classes is a player choice.. Cost of a build should ahve nothign to do with the power of said class DPS wise...

If someone Optimizes for DPS then they should get more DPS than someone who doesn't Optimize for it.

Additionally some classes Should be better at Optimizing for DPS than other classes.

For example a Wizard who Optimizes for DPS shouldn't be as good at Crowd Control as a Wizard who Optimizes for Crowd control, and the wizard who optimizes for Crowd control shouldn't have as much DPS as a wizard that optimizes for DPS, that's the nature of the game.

If someone pays more, they should get more, so the cost of a DPS Build should relate to the DPS output, if TWF costs more in terms of feats and gear and the like then it stands to reason that it should indeed provide more DPS than other styles.

The only fair way to balance out the DPS difference is to either reduce the Cost and DPS of TWF at the same time or to increase the potential options/costs and DPS for other styles.

The DPS for TWF should not be reduced to be on par with something that is a cheaper to gain however or it becomes obsolete and worthless.

Zaal

06-12-2010, 04:11 PM

If dps lag happens it is due to the amount of messages being put through a buffer where the buffer isn't able to cope with the output.

A simple way to circumvent this is to not abuse the text buffer output to handle the single hits but do them per 5 (or more)hits. This will seem rather in accurate and will need getting used to but it saves tuning gaming mechanics.

And maybe only do this for raids or even just make it an optional in the gameplay options.

I think it's a bit more than that... The way I see it, it is not only the number of messages but also the size of the messages and as new mechanics are added, the message lengths grow - complicated also by the sheer number of RAID instances which I imagine has grown considerably since MOD 9.

Also, I understand DDO uses the Microsoft .NET messaging Framework rather than one homegrown and specific to DDO requirements. Considering the extra overhead required to operate in the Managed Framework and that the communication tech is generic rather than specific to DDO, seems there is room for improvement here.

Unfortunately, it's cheaper and quicker to nerf the combat system :(

Sarr

06-12-2010, 04:19 PM

I think it's a bit more than that... The way I see it, it is not only the number of messages but also the size of the messages and as new mechanics are added, the message lengths grow - complicated also by the sheer number of RAID instances which I imagine has grown considerably since MOD 9.

Also, I understand DDO uses the Microsoft .NET messaging Framework rather than one homegrown and specific to DDO requirements. Considering the extra overhead required to operate in the Managed Framework and that the communication tech is generic rather than specific to DDO, seems there is room for improvement here.

Unfortunately, it's cheaper and quicker to nerf the combat system :(
Yeah, they should have rid DDO of NetFramework long ago, especially when it's as old as the 1.1 version (Vista / Win7 has issues with it since a long time).
Maybe I'm not an expert here and maybe I'm totally wrong, but it seems to me just like you wrote.

I really hoped that DDO free-to-play revamp will be an occasion to throw NetFramework away, but no luck.

I'd love to see some developer's / coder's response to that. Maybe we're wrong?

IronClan

06-12-2010, 04:40 PM

Um... you guys realize that sending text strings was trivial even back in the days of modem dialup connections right?

Zaal

06-12-2010, 07:27 PM

Um... you guys realize that sending text strings was trivial even back in the days of modem dialup connections right?

Sure - and sending text strings is trivial now too! ;)

Kyln

06-12-2010, 09:05 PM

If someone Optimizes for DPS then they should get more DPS than someone who doesn't Optimize for it.

Additionally some classes Should be better at Optimizing for DPS than other classes.

For example a Wizard who Optimizes for DPS shouldn't be as good at Crowd Control as a Wizard who Optimizes for Crowd control, and the wizard who optimizes for Crowd control shouldn't have as much DPS as a wizard that optimizes for DPS, that's the nature of the game.

If someone pays more, they should get more, so the cost of a DPS Build should relate to the DPS output, if TWF costs more in terms of feats and gear and the like then it stands to reason that it should indeed provide more DPS than other styles.

The only fair way to balance out the DPS difference is to either reduce the Cost and DPS of TWF at the same time or to increase the potential options/costs and DPS for other styles.

The DPS for TWF should not be reduced to be on par with something that is a cheaper to gain however or it becomes obsolete and worthless.

That is a horrible analogy, sorry. You are comparing CC and DPS specializations vs two different types of DPS specialization.

To be honest, while I am not excited about the proposed changes, I am working on a twf rogue that is going to take tempest I, I have trouble understanding why people are arguing that TWF needs to be superior to THF. So it takes more feats, and requires two different stats? It is cool, offers a greater variety of weapon mod combinations, plus additional side benefits from many of the classes used to get feats for free to do TWF. Not all things are equal cost for equal power and it is not like THF isn't taking a hit as well.

I am willing to wait and see how things pan out.

Hatchi

06-12-2010, 10:01 PM

On the surface this looks like something that could really stand out if the game could take true advantage of the multi-core Proc's.. but we all know that way to many are attempting to play on computers that can't do that for many reason they either don't understand or can't afford to upgrade and want to play too.. and the game needs them.. but if this could in fact happen, would it speed up and reduce the lag, probably not.. The games math seems very complex and all that information has to travel thousands of miles in some cases not to mention to way to many computers that all have to answer back to the servers before they can move forward.. What are you left with but to trim down all of it, if the game becomes unplayable we all need to accept even the speed of light has lag.. and then there's packet routing which doesn't go in a straight line but which ever way is open all wanting to go to the same place.. And then there are all the others in the game doing other things and they all need to go through a limited finite space as all those packets are moved.. Truly it is amazing we can play anything at all decently..

Lag or not I just want to say THANKS to all the Dev's and everyone else who fight with this issue, it almost seems like your in a no win thankless position..

All I can add is understanding and forgiveness that somethings have to go or be pared down to make those large gathering work in a timely manner, that's what makes playing here fun. If you want to be hardcore about it all you can really do is pen and paper.. Personally I rather see the changes needed to make the game move forward..

I know on the surface this post does not appear to add to the thread but I beg to differ.. Understanding and accepting a change that has to take place to keep those large gathering moving smoothly is very important to this world..

bjlinden

06-12-2010, 10:43 PM

I'm sure this has been posted before (I even saw it a few times in the first 10 or so pages that I actually read, before realizing I could never go through the entire thread) but I felt it deserved reiterating.

If I understand correctly, it seems like it's the physics checks that are causing the majority of the lag, right? If so, then why not just implement the "offhand attacks use the same physics check as the mainhand" idea, and scrap the rest? You'll still be reducing the number of physics checks in half, which would dramatically reduce lag without needing to worry about removing haste effects or adding procs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the haste effects are only a real problem because they lead to more physics checks being done in a shorter amount of time, right? If you're already cutting the number of physics calculations in half, then reducing them by an extra 10% for a few people won't make THAT dramatic a difference.

If the lag is still a major problem, THEN change haste effects to procs, or any other tweaks you may have come up with in the meantime. But making sweeping changes to established systems is just asking for trouble, especially when there's such an easy alternative. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.

---

That being said, my other big concern is how is this going to look, animation-wise? Are the animations going to be mostly saying the same, just that when it looks like we're swinging our offhand, it's actually our mainhand doing the damage? Are we just going to hold our offhand weapons limply at our sides and just swing the other one until we get a proc? Are we going to have to wait for a proc animation to finish before we can do anything else? It seems to me like this could cause problems, too.

adRyft

06-13-2010, 10:46 AM

I am interested in knowing if the developers have any consolation prize for TWF toons that are finesse based and not rogues with high sneak attack, who are not even close to the top of the DPS food chain to begin with, and who are now being saddled with a TWENTY PERCENT decrease in their DPS when they were barely part of the problem to begin with. It seems that this update only widens the DPS gap between Clonks and dedicated melee toons.

It was barely enough to get by with before, in some scenarios. I'm not sure it will be enough at all, now. I'd really like it if they at least added a Superior Two Weapon fighting feat to give the possibility of again attaining 100/100, even if it had a natural 19 dex requirement or something like that.

Just curious.

Kaldaka

06-13-2010, 10:59 AM

Will they be giving out free respec's (i.e. lesser +6s for those who might want to get rid of 6 levels of ranger??) because of this nerf?

I highly doubt it ... So that's why this nerf = sux

adRyft

06-13-2010, 02:46 PM

Um, 6 levels of ranger will still give you a 10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks. That's hardly a negligible bonus. Deal.

But not every toon with greater two weapon fighting has Tempest, Zeal, the Fighter Alacrity capstone, or Wind Stance 4 to make up for the DPS hit. And those are the only abilities that these numbers seem to care about appeasing.

For one thing, you probably won't see a barbarian go with two-weapon fighting anymore, ever.

Rogues have little choice, because more attacks mean more sneak attacks, but the -20% offhand still hurts them a lot, especially when not everything is sneak-attack viable to begin with. With trap skills already being potentially the domain of rogue splash builds, other than the mechanics you will inevitably see in mod 5 I can already guess that assassins will be less popular.

Clonks are null for DPS, now.

Favored Souls take a big hit unless they go with Warforged/Greatsword for two-handed fighting.

It just bugs me that the ones taking the biggest DPS hit are the ones who are hardly in the running for DPS of the year, anyway. I don't think it's TWF by itself that's overpowered... I think it's khopesh and multiple speed bonuses that broke the balance curve.

Kaldaka

06-13-2010, 05:01 PM

Um, 6 levels of ranger will still give you a 10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks. That's hardly a negligible bonus. Deal.

How about the difference between 6 levels of fighter and 12 levels of fighter? those kensai bonuses (http://ddowiki.com/page/Kensai_enhancements) I am sure are higher dps now than a lousy extra 10% proc ... or 12 levels of fighter versus 18? again kensai bonuses (http://ddowiki.com/page/Kensai_enhancements) ... I know you get favored enemy and ram's might, but fighters can get weapon specializations, extra strength enhancements, etc. ... One way was FAR superior than the other prior to the nerf, but with these upcoming changes, I will probably want to go the other way.

But without free respeccing, its gonna cost me a whole lotta TPs to accomplish them ... so again this nerf = SUX ... It really only is truly hurting the ranger 6 splashes and monks.

Rhysem

06-14-2010, 12:47 AM

A tad off topic, but... I can cope with combat changes, but when you're doing changes this extensive it is time to man up and give everyone a free respec. Multiple other big-name games do it. (I'm thinking in particular one with orcs, trolls, gnomes, dwarves, and elves... and one that's got a really sweet sidekick/minion grouping mechanic)

Of course, said other games don't sell respecs for real life cash in their game stores either...

On the plus side my character who needs it is on life #2 and only 8, so I think I only need a single +3 respec to fix things up but still. Asking for ~5 to 10 bucks to fix my character that you're breaking is weak.

(unless there's a reliable source of +3 hearts of wood out there I'm missing, which is possible)

newroticslob

06-14-2010, 01:43 AM

Looks like the cart got in front of the horse with the devs upgrading the programming for the players. With today's technology, they are unable to meet the demands and expectations. The question comes down to who started the problem, the chicken or the egg?

The "nasty behind the scene" things are the inability of the hardware to keep up with the massive number of computations with such a popular game. Even the human brain has a limit. The best way to fix the problem is to cut down on the number of computations needed to be performed. Similarly, how do you save gas? Don't drive as much. However, this isn't feasible due to previous expectations being met fairly well.

Also, money comes into play. Who's willing to downgrade the abilities of their characters to ease up on the hardware? Umm... nobody. So, this concept is going to be implemented as a stop-gap until something better is found. Will it help? Only the number-crunchers can really say. Though they're only guessing. We'll see if it works. Either way, self-control will be needed to give the devs an opportunity to decide the best course for the game. It is funny how worked up we can get over a game. Might want to think about that next time you see someone throw their golf club or yell at a umpire/referee/fellow DDO'er.

SkyCry

06-14-2010, 02:37 AM

How about the difference between 6 levels of fighter and 12 levels of fighter? those kensai bonuses (http://ddowiki.com/page/Kensai_enhancements) I am sure are higher dps now than a lousy extra 10% proc ... or 12 levels of fighter versus 18? again kensai bonuses (http://ddowiki.com/page/Kensai_enhancements) ... I know you get favored enemy and ram's might, but fighters can get weapon specializations, extra strength enhancements, etc. ... One way was FAR superior than the other prior to the nerf, but with these upcoming changes, I will probably want to go the other way.

But without free respeccing, its gonna cost me a whole lotta TPs to accomplish them ... so again this nerf = SUX ... It really only is truly hurting the ranger 6 splashes and monks.

Dude,
a) Just roll a kensai fighter, don't respect 18 ranger levels into 18 fighter levels, duh. Then you can also compare the two later to potentially disprove your own claim.
b) Fighters only know how to fight. If rangers were as good at fighting as fighters, but also could cast spells, sneak/spot/jump/swim and use a bow very well, then why would anyone go fighter? Be reasonable.

(Oh god, what have I done? Now the thread won't die as fast! :()

Aesop

06-14-2010, 06:25 AM

tasebro

06-14-2010, 11:57 AM

People keep talking about respecing their characters... I wouldn't do that right away.

Wait it out see how it plays and if you can get used to the changes

heck see that the changes are kept. Turbine could put changes live and then say that they aren't working or that the numbers need to be tweaked.... and that could cause another change.

Just ride it out to U6 if possible

Aesop

Yes, but here's the thing: Turbine is a business. How they run their business--how they treat their customers--has consequences: Actions have consequences:
--they nerf vanilla in nerfdate5 (for "Game Balance" donchaknow, to make-the-game-more-fun),
--so then everyone abandons vanilla and instead invests money/time to respec over to chocolate because chocolate still works like its supposed to,
--so then they nerf chocolate in nerfdate6 , so then everyone invests money/time to respec over to strawberry because strawberry still works right, which in turn gets nerfed;
--and so on.
--when they have "Rebalanced" the entire build lineup, Turbine starts the nerf cycle all over again, nerfing whatever works best at the time to "make the game more fun", and working down the line.

Thats NOT "Game Balance", thats just bait and switch.

The consequence of this sort of arbitrary nerfs is that players (some sooner than others) eventually realize they can have zero confidence in their permanent build investment choices having permanent results as advertised--clear intent being: "if it works, its gonna get nerfed". It takes the Player Character building out of the players' hands. This is strong disincentive to invest money/time in permanent build choices other than pure-class (cookie cutter ), such as purchasing new race content, or +2 to-all-stat-tomes (basically +2 tomes are required for edgy custom builds to overcome inherent handicaps). Pure-class builds become the default build option as the most nerf-proof choices; this decreases variety, thus decreases diversity, thus decreases interest.

I am not interested in investing MORE money/time to have the rug pulled out from under me again. I am not really interested in pure-class toons (I like successful edgy custom builds, I like to SEE a wide variety of successful edgy custom builds running around).
In my view, after nerfdate5 goes live, it is then up to Turbine to put something on the table, to earn my trust back that my permanent choices yield positive benefit, and are not misconstrued as an invitation for nerfing. I can wait till update6, which better NOT be more nerfs thats for sure, otherwise no more money from me.

To restate: if they HAVE to make changes, they owe it to players to make such changes in the least debilitating way possible, out of respect and consideration for the time/money ppl have invested, or if that cant be done for practical reasons, the fair thing to do is to GIVE the players a slightly BETTER deal than what they already have, or if not possible, then a free repsec with no strings attached -- i.e. deconstruction of greensteel, or transfer greensteel into another type of craftable altogether (hopefully one that is not bugged this time).

Kaldaka

06-14-2010, 02:38 PM

Aesop

06-14-2010, 04:29 PM

Yes, but here's the thing: Turbine is a business. How they run their business--how they treat their customers--has consequences: Actions have consequences:
--they nerf vanilla in nerfdate5 (for "Game Balance" donchaknow, to make-the-game-more-fun),
--so then everyone abandons vanilla and instead invests money/time to respec over to chocolate because chocolate still works like its supposed to,
--so then they nerf chocolate in nerfdate6 , so then everyone invests money/time to respec over to strawberry because strawberry still works right, which in turn gets nerfed;
--and so on.
--when they have "Rebalanced" the entire build lineup, Turbine starts the nerf cycle all over again, nerfing whatever works best at the time to "make the game more fun", and working down the line.

Thats NOT "Game Balance", thats just bait and switch.

The consequence of this sort of arbitrary nerfs is that players (some sooner than others) eventually realize they can have zero confidence in their permanent build investment choices having permanent results as advertised--clear intent being: "if it works, its gonna get nerfed". It takes the Player Character building out of the players' hands. This is strong disincentive to invest money/time in permanent build choices other than pure-class (cookie cutter ), such as purchasing new race content, or +2 to-all-stat-tomes (basically +2 tomes are required for edgy custom builds to overcome inherent handicaps). Pure-class builds become the default build option as the most nerf-proof choices; this decreases variety, thus decreases diversity, thus decreases interest.

I am not interested in investing MORE money/time to have the rug pulled out from under me again. I am not really interested in pure-class toons (I like successful edgy custom builds, I like to SEE a wide variety of successful edgy custom builds running around).
In my view, after nerfdate5 goes live, it is then up to Turbine to put something on the table, to earn my trust back that my permanent choices yield positive benefit, and are not misconstrued as an invitation for nerfing. I can wait till update6, which better NOT be more nerfs thats for sure, otherwise no more money from me.

To restate: if they HAVE to make changes, they owe it to players to make such changes in the least debilitating way possible, out of respect and consideration for the time/money ppl have invested, or if that cant be done for practical reasons, the fair thing to do is to GIVE the players a slightly BETTER deal than what they already have, or if not possible, then a free repsec with no strings attached -- i.e. deconstruction of greensteel, or transfer greensteel into another type of craftable altogether (hopefully one that is not bugged this time).

But all of that is irrelevant to what I'm saying.

I'm saying play through it for a couple weeks before jumping on the respec wagon. Things change, and sometimes they change quickly.

Whene they did the massive slowdown last sept/oct (ish) thye changed it shortly after the release because it wasn't working.

I caution against changing a build around as soon as the module is released because if something is not working then it will likely be changed again. Thus requiring another respec.

Give it some time and you may not have to change a thing.

as an aside: I personally love building characters as opposed to playing a"pure" class and would perfer it if the class choices we made weren't being made to be less effective than a pure class build. The entire Enhancement set up is pigeonholing characters so badly its hard to come up with new fun builds... Which is the major reason I still play the game

Hi, I'm Aesop and I'm an Altoholic

tasebro

06-14-2010, 05:27 PM

But all of that is irrelevant to what I'm saying.

I'm saying play through it ... Give it some time and you may not have to change a thing.
...

Actually, "all of that" is VERY relevant, since the damage is already done, meaning "in good faith" no longer applies--regardless of after-the-fact damage control efforts (if any), the INTENT of turbine on this is very clear, and therefore I am wary of Turbine now; I for one am not willing to reward negative "changes" intent on eliminating whatever works effectively in favor of mediocrity, with positive rewards (i.e. more money).

If someone breaks into your house but you chase them off before they can steal your TV, its still "breaking and entering", a felony, with intent being established in the act itself, not the outcome; intent follows the attempt, not getting away with it.

The key point here is : "integrity"

Either turbine has it, or they do not. It falls on turbine to do the right thing here, not the players, who by the way have NO CHOICE but to "play through it".

Athlonpv

06-14-2010, 07:20 PM

Unfortunately, it's cheaper and quicker to nerf the combat system :(

Removing the effect instead of the cause.

Aesop

06-14-2010, 08:54 PM

Actually, "all of that" is VERY relevant, since the damage is already done, meaning "in good faith" no longer applies--regardless of after-the-fact damage control efforts (if any), the INTENT of turbine on this is very clear, and therefore I am wary of Turbine now; I for one am not willing to reward negative "changes" intent on eliminating whatever works effectively in favor of mediocrity, with positive rewards (i.e. more money).

If someone breaks into your house but you chase them off before they can steal your TV, its still "breaking and entering", a felony, with intent being established in the act itself, not the outcome; intent follows the attempt, not getting away with it.

The key point here is : "integrity"

Either turbine has it, or they do not. It falls on turbine to do the right thing here, not the players, who by the way have NO CHOICE but to "play through it".

Ummm... that has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm posting.

Me: Don't rush into changing your characters build

You: Turbine has betrayed our trust

Me: what does one have to do with the other? I'm saying they may not keep the changes. So don't rush out to make changes to your character.

You: Too bad for them cause now we can't trust them cause they are destroying our builds even if they change it later, they still broke our trust.

Now for my next attempt.

Turbine has not promised you anything.
Turbine is not stealing anything from you.
Turbine is trying out something in an effort to balance their combat system better.
Turbine may find this to be an unsatisfactory solution and change it again soon.

I would suggest not changing your character until after you see the direction that Turbine is going.
If this change does not work, or makes the combat unfun
Turbine may change it again to a differnet solution as they've done before. However...

Turbine may find the solution works well and balances combat
If this is the case and your character is "broken" by the change then
You can use the new system to determine the best route to take your characters
If this change truly bothers you on some personal level and ruins the fun you have in game
THEN stop playing

The melodrama about betrayal of trust and comparing Turbine to a Burglar trying to steal your TV is ridiculous.

Games change, rules change and play changes... says so right in the license and disclaimer

I'm not sure I like these changes personally... though I'm leaning towards yes. The combat system (and to a larger part the Enhancement System) as stands limits character builds and eliminates interesting concept buids as nearly unusable. This isn't the whole of the fix for that, but it does feel like a starting point to bring the game back to a reasonably balanced game.

The way you've railed against this makes it sound like the end of the world and that just isn't true. Companies have to try new things in order to advance, some work and some they just have to reverse direction and restart. This could be either and you are already condemning them for no reason other than you feel wronged that things didn't stay the same.

Aesop

Marewood

06-14-2010, 09:15 PM

I am afraid that this update will lead anywhere but to a more diverse DDO character wise. With this update we will not see fewer TWFighters but rather a lower versatility, that is fewer multiclasses and more pure classes, that is, particularly Tempest Rangers.

I know we all have been starving to see a few more Kophesh wielding Tempest III Rangers. After all they are most likely to take the least damage from this nerf according to the tables posted by Eladrin but maybe this will just be a bit too much. With the planned update it will become even more pointless trying to develop your melee character with a sense of roleplay and away from the mainstream, for example as an Assassin, a Ninja, a dual wielding monk or sneaking rogue splash. Pure class fighters and Pallys are probably also pretty bad off after this. What we are simply going to see is a new type of powergamer toon that will be respeced to accomodate the combat rule adjustments. So grind your Kopeshes and prepare to grind your way back up to 20...

tasebro

06-14-2010, 10:23 PM

Ummm... that has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm posting...balances combat ...melodrama...reasonably balanced game...
Aesop

1. This is not "melodrama", this is business. Cost-benefit. Investment-return. Free exchange with equitable benefit--AND reasonable expectation of same.
Therefore, if you want to do business (one may assume with the intent to "make more money"), it is prudent to keep your customers happy. Spin it however you like, but in the end its OUR money (gaming dollars), not turbines'.
Bait and switch =/= integrity.

2. "Game balance" applies only in checkers, not in games of chance--and by extension, wargaming in particular--the sum of the parts is not, and can never be, unity, therefore "game balance" is simply not applicable. But that never seems to stop folks from employing "game balance" as a post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc excuse to justify flubs and gaffs in wargames, rather than simply admitting same for what they are. Self-delusion is a wonderful thing, but it is neither "reasonable", nor "balanced".
cf. #1 above.

Which is why what you are posting Aesop--with respect--is simply not relevant to the matter at hand.

Meetch1972

06-14-2010, 11:18 PM

Dude,
a) Just roll a kensai fighter, don't respect 18 ranger levels into 18 fighter levels, duh. Then you can also compare the two later to potentially disprove your own claim.
b) Fighters only know how to fight. If rangers were as good at fighting as fighters, but also could cast spells, sneak/spot/jump/swim and use a bow very well, then why would anyone go fighter? Be reasonable.

Exactly! I think this needs to be stressed. A fighter (or barb) should only really know how to fight. It's splashing other classes that makes them more of something else (and less of a fighter/barb). A ranger as far as I'm aware is able to fight pretty well, but supplements any lack of melee fighting skill with extra ranged combat effectiveness, plus spells and abilities, including stealth!, which can help themselves somewhat, but also the greater party - at least they should!

I don't recall the last time I saw another ranger build of any kind dragging pet along, despite getting one in the very early levels (though having not played beyond level 4 with a ranger yet, I'm not sure how high they do get). However, in this thread I have read more than enough of the "OMFG my tempest can't shred X toe-to-toe in Y seconds any more 'cos his attack rate isn't high enough! It'll take a whole Y*1.15 seconds now and they'll actually hurt me more!" attitude.

I've never known rangers to be that dangerous within sword-swinging range in any other MMO. Kiting seems to be the way to go there, and I expect those who are good at that will continue to make significant contributions to the group dynamic in damage done even before anyone enters melee. Everyone just wants to zerg through hand crafted quests without even really listening to the DM, and if these changes force a little more thought, I'm happy to spend the few extra minutes trying to help the party work as a unit.

Still, it seems that it will be necessary to appease those who have invested in a build optimized with exactly one purpose in mind that sucks at almost everything else. I also hope the developers remembered to slow down NPCs with the same DPS rule adjustments. :)

(Oh god, what have I done? Now the thread won't die as fast! :()

Shame on you! :D

Meetch1972

06-15-2010, 01:02 AM

2. "Game balance" applies only in checkers, not in games of chance--and by extension, wargaming in particular

Uhhhh since when has any raid in DDO been a game of chance? The only real "random" nature in any significant quest/raid seems to be whether anyone will DC mid quest, whether those involved know their part, how well they are able to play it, and whether they will suffer from lag issues.

When you are beating a boss that's immune to vorpal, stat drains, paralysis etc, most of the random nature of the boss fight is turned into a statistical analysis which boils down to three letters: DPS. Take VoD for example. You don't know exactly how much damage you're going to do in the next 10 seconds, but can project pretty darn well how much damage you're personally going to do to Suulo over the next few minutes while he's got his back to you and stupidly focussing on the intimitank. Plus you've planned for the orthons, devils and bats. If I were DM I'd be mixing it up and turning Suulo around and using his strengths against the whole party who have generated far more combined aggro than the tank hiding behind his shield. I'd also be giving Suulo a lot less hit points to compensate for the pain he's going to be able to inflict on the rest of the party. But the DM here is a heuristic, and no matter what the developers do to make things "interesting"/"random", it's always countered by an "exploit" aka strategy - a formula for "beating the quest" with the resources you have.

A good group is a statistically moderated, well oiled machine, not a game of roulette. DDO is no more a game of chance when it comes to DPS than the weather bureau is guessing how much rain you'll get in the next couple of hours. Please don't suggest it is.

Marewood

06-15-2010, 12:57 PM

I don't recall the last time I saw another ranger build of any kind dragging pet along, despite getting one in the very early levels (though having not played beyond level 4 with a ranger yet, I'm not sure how high they do get). However, in this thread I have read more than enough of the "OMFG my tempest can't shred X toe-to-toe in Y seconds any more 'cos his attack rate isn't high enough! It'll take a whole Y*1.15 seconds now and they'll actually hurt me more!" attitude.

Well the point is that Rangers are perhaps the only class that will come out of this nerf widely unscathed in terms of TWF. Fighters, Rogues, Pallies and Monks are the ones that will really suffer greatly when using two weapons. So this nerf will mess up the build of a great number of people out there including me who spend a lot of time and effort on speccing their toons and i cant say that i am too happy about this.

Still, it seems that it will be necessary to appease those who have invested in a build optimized with exactly one purpose in mind that sucks at almost everything else.

Well, not everyone who has focused on TWF is a mindless zerger. I love to play my toon with focus on fun, versatility, roleplay, and going beyond the mainstream. But loosing almost 1/4 of your attacks (which is the case if you dont splash in tempest) is more than just a mild adjustment to the combat systems and i expect those toons to have a hard time to get into raid PUGs in the future.

IronClan

06-15-2010, 01:47 PM

Well the point is that Rangers are perhaps the only class that will come out of this nerf widely unscathed in terms of TWF. Fighters, Rogues, Pallies and Monks are the ones that will really suffer greatly when using two weapons. So this nerf will mess up the build of a great number of people out there including me who spend a lot of time and effort on speccing their toons and i cant say that i am too happy about this.

The two seperate breakdowns I've seen by two number crunchers who didn't seem to agree woith each others perspective (one of them posted here around 8 or 10 pages back) both seemed to concure that the Ranger is actually hardest hit in terms of before/after percentage of DPS. Something around 12-16% hit, versus something around 8% hit for a fighter...

Well, not everyone who has focused on TWF is a mindless zerger. I love to play my toon with focus on fun, versatility, roleplay, and going beyond the mainstream. But loosing almost 1/4 of your attacks (which is the case if you dont splash in tempest) is more than just a mild adjustment to the combat systems and i expect those toons to have a hard time to get into raid PUGs in the future.

Hey me too we're rather outnumered here (on the forums anyway) by Zergers and Optimalists.

The question that no one poses is, if high level raids and epic groups start turning up their noses at TWF, and we also have THF saying they will now be "turned away" also due to them being nerfed to not get glancing blows when they are doing the twitch, then I guess all those elitist group leaders will have to only except S&B..

I can see it now, the avarage elitist LFM will read "no pikers, fast run, know quest, NO DPS!"

Creeper

06-15-2010, 01:53 PM

Hey me too we're rather outnumered here (on the forums anyway) by Zergers and Optimalists.

If you do a forum search for the word "Optimalists" you get one result; this thread.
Just thought that was very interesting fact! Ok, back to topic.

Cyr

06-15-2010, 01:55 PM

I can see it now, the avarage elitist LFM will read "no pikers, fast run, know quest, NO DPS!"

No it will still read "No noobs".

For Marewood,

Rangers are the hardest hit as a percentage of dps. Some ranger splash builds are also very hard hit. The amounts vary by build in some cases. There will be some particular builds that will get turned away from first time runs of new epics, but at this point most players are comfortable going well below the optimal level when pugging epics. If these toons had lost 10-20% of their hit points well that would have been a whole other story...

IronClan

06-15-2010, 02:01 PM

If you do a forum search for the word "Optimalists" you get one result; this thread.
Just thought that was very interesting fact! Ok, back to topic.

That is interesting, I guess I coined a term.

Boneyard

06-15-2010, 02:17 PM

anyone else think its odd that the fighter capstone is equal to a level 4 spell? or that 12 levels of ranger makes you superior in every way to any TWFing fighter?

Creeper

06-15-2010, 02:59 PM

anyone else think its odd that the fighter capstone is equal to a level 4 spell? or that 12 levels of ranger makes you superior in every way to any TWFing fighter?

I think it would be odd if that were true, yes.

Marewood

06-15-2010, 04:44 PM

The two seperate breakdowns I've seen by two number crunchers who didn't seem to agree woith each others perspective (one of them posted here around 8 or 10 pages back) both seemed to concure that the Ranger is actually hardest hit in terms of before/after percentage of DPS. Something around 12-16% hit, versus something around 8% hit for a fighter...

No it will still read "No noobs".

For Marewood,

Rangers are the hardest hit as a percentage of dps. Some ranger splash builds are also very hard hit. The amounts vary by build in some cases. There will be some particular builds that will get turned away from first time runs of new epics, but at this point most players are comfortable going well below the optimal level when pugging epics. If these toons had lost 10-20% of their hit points well that would have been a whole other story...

I was referring to that table, originally posted by Eladrin:

So, translating the actual attacks to the new system, you have now

Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3) 110% 110%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4) dont really know
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 110%
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 110%
20 [Other] 100% 100%

And you will have in the future with your proposed changes

Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3) 100% 85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4) 100% 75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 55%
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 55%
20 [Other] 100% 55%

[/QUOTE]

I don't want to start arguing again or crunch numbers as this topic has been discussed en detail - just want to highlight where my info came from. According to that, Rangers loose the least and multiclass toons [Other] get hit pretty bad. Pure class fighters and pallys are somewhat in between but still get struck quite severe.

Oh btw. did i get that right that they also are planning to nerf glancing blows on THF?

IronClan

06-15-2010, 04:55 PM

I was referring to that table, originally posted by Eladrin:

I don't want to start arguing again or crunch numbers as this topic has been discussed en detail - just want to highlight where my info came from. According to that, Rangers loose the least and multiclass toons [Other] get hit pretty bad. Pure class fighters and pallys are somewhat in between but still get struck quite severe.

Oh btw. did i get that right that they also are planning to nerf glancing blows on THF?

Ah well I'm far from an expert on number chrunching, what I personally took from the DPS breakdowns pre and post nerf is that the Tempest ranger is losing the most because it had more to begin with. Higher combat speed and number of offhand attacks... The numbers I'm talking about expressed this as a percentage of DPS lost where the rangers lose the most DPS from this nerf... They still have more off hand attacks than others but they lost more than others.

IronClan

06-15-2010, 05:16 PM

Wasn't those numbers for ranger and erroneously stating the effect of tempest as 10% when the actual benefit is ~8% due to haste stacking overhead and only counting double strike for main hand.

Fighters, Paladins:
Now: main 108%, off 108%
U5: main 110%, off 88%
Difference: <8% decrease

Rangers:
Now: main 108%, off 108%*5/4=135%
U5: main 105%, off 105%
Difference: ~14% decrease

Monks:
Same as fighters/paladins except 8% instead of <8% due to same damage on main and off hand.
Additionally, double strike will increase effect of specials, ToD and ki strikes.
e.g. ToD: gain 10% double strike + 80% off hand proc + 8% double strike off hand proc + off hand attack damage =>benefit increased by some 120%, this translates to a dps boost of ~10%
Difference: >2% increase for dark monks

Rest:
100/100->100/80
Difference: <10% decrease

THF:
Twitch more or less brought in line with standing attack

All with madstone boots: ~4.5%

Here're the numbers I was referring to basically percentage of DPS lost

Xeraphim

06-15-2010, 09:04 PM

182 pages? Seriously? I don't have time to read this veritable TOME of Player Responses.

I'll just step back out then. Good luck guys!

Marewood

06-16-2010, 09:41 AM

Rangers are the hardest hit as a percentage of dps. Some ranger splash builds are also very hard hit. The amounts vary by build in some cases. There will be some particular builds that will get turned away from first time runs of new epics, but at this point most players are comfortable going well below the optimal level when pugging epics. If these toons had lost 10-20% of their hit points well that would have been a whole other story...

Ok i agree - looked at the numbers more closely and i have to admit - and I also agree with Alahaz - that the Tempest Rangers will perhaps be dealt the severest blow. However, i think two issues are still worth mentioning:

1) Tempest Rangers will still have the highest overall number/percentage of hits - so i am pretty sure that in the strife to maintain their DPS a lot of ppl will respec their build to this particular type of toon, what comes back to killing diversity in the end. Particularly assassin build types and other similar rouges will be in some kind of trouble as single wepaon wielding for them damage wise as is THF (as the multiple threat it generates is deadly for squishy rogues on many occasions).

2) After this nerf we will have a combat system that - when developing a toon - requires one to consider hit penalties, number of hits, hit percentages and so on. The fact that it took me quite some while to figure out how this new combat adjustment even though i know my build quite well shows that this system is getting pretty complicated. I know this is not a WoW type of game and i enjoy this game for the depth and complexity it has got. But the combat system is already quite complex as it stands. The compendium lacks a reliable description on many subjects and if it werent for all you guys on the forums who tested several things out and posted the results a lot of ppl would rely on voodoo like assumptions which are often far from the apllied rule setting.
Now in terms of complexity, we are getting well ahead in working our way towards the german tax system. I dont see how some1 who will be new to this game in the future might in the least know what they are doing when they build their melee toon. Ok - you might say thats part of the fun and playing experience involved but it just stinks if you notice after a few months of working on that built how much you have done wrong.
But hey - you can still get those Hearts from the DDO store after all ;)

IronClan

06-16-2010, 10:25 AM

Ok i agree - looked at the numbers more closely and i have to admit - and I also agree with Alahaz - that the Tempest Rangers will perhaps be dealt the severest blow. However, i think two issues are still worth mentioning:

1) Tempest Rangers will still have the highest overall number/percentage of hits - so i am pretty sure that in the strife to maintain their DPS a lot of ppl will respec their build to this particular type of toon, what comes back to killing diversity in the end. Particularly assassin build types and other similar rouges will be in some kind of trouble as single wepaon wielding for them damage wise as is THF (as the multiple threat it generates is deadly for squishy rogues on many occasions).

2) After this nerf we will have a combat system that - when developing a toon - requires one to consider hit penalties, number of hits, hit percentages and so on. The fact that it took me quite some while to figure out how this new combat adjustment even though i know my build quite well shows that this system is getting pretty complicated. I know this is not a WoW type of game and i enjoy this game for the depth and complexity it has got. But the combat system is already quite complex as it stands. The compendium lacks a reliable description on many subjects and if it werent for all you guys on the forums who tested several things out and posted the results a lot of ppl would rely on voodoo like assumptions which are often far from the apllied rule setting.
Now in terms of complexity, we are getting well ahead in working our way towards the german tax system. I dont see how some1 who will be new to this game in the future might in the least know what they are doing when they build their melee toon. Ok - you might say thats part of the fun and playing experience involved but it just stinks if you notice after a few months of working on that built how much you have done wrong.
But hey - you can still get those Hearts from the DDO store after all ;)

On 1 the gap between non tempest/ranger and other TWF is actually narrowed. Except for the example you cite, of course Rogues do seem to get the s**ty end of the stick... Not sure how they should compensate for that.

2 I agree to the extent that they need to not make the rules more labyrinthine and complex than D&D rules... but the nerf really doesn't do that.. If anything the new offhand thing is more P&P than the current system.

I don't like the double strike mechanic silly name silly concept and silly justification... I think Turbine should just bite the bullet and slow combat down by about 1-2% every two weeks until they're 10% slower and leave the stacking haste boosts alone... Humans being who they are 90% of them wont ever realize that combat is slower until someone makes a before/after youtube video proving it. The mistake they made the last time (apparently) was slowing it down ALL OF A SUDDEN... So that people could turn 10% into "like molasses" and a minor change into "the end of DDO". For people who have difficulty dealing with change tend to make the most hyperbolic out of the most mundane, they also tend to not even notice the same change if it's gradual and they don't know it.

smatt

06-16-2010, 10:39 AM

On 1 the gap between non tempest/ranger and other TWF is actually narrowed. Except for the example you cite, of course Rogues do seem to get the s**ty end of the stick... Not sure how they should compensate for that.

2 I agree to the extent that they need to not make the rules more labyrinthine and complex than D&D rules... but the nerf really doesn't do that.. If anything the new offhand thing is more P&P than the current system.

I don't like the double strike mechanic silly name silly concept and silly justification... I think Turbine should just bite the bullet and slow combat down by about 1-2% every two weeks until they're 10% slower and leave the stacking haste boosts alone... Humans being who they are 90% of them wont ever realize that combat is slower until someone makes a before/after youtube video proving it. The mistake they made the last time (apparently) was slowing it down ALL OF A SUDDEN... So that people could turn 10% into "like molasses" and a minor change into "the end of DDO". For people who have difficulty dealing with change tend to make the most hyperbolic out of the most mundane, they also tend to not even notice the same change if it's gradual and they don't know it. I disagree completely here.. Even fio they did it incrementally.. Slowing down combat would create a a situation where far less people would like it... Even new players that had never seen the old combat speed and or the overall speed of the game would be bored.

IronClan

06-16-2010, 11:50 AM

I disagree completely here.. Even fio they did it incrementally.. Slowing down combat would create a a situation where far less people would like it... Even new players that had never seen the old combat speed and or the overall speed of the game would be bored.

And yet the combat in many very popular games is significantly slower... many twitch games at that, HL2 has slower combat, and slower appearing run speeds, TF2 might be pretty close or slightly faster in terms of hectic speed than DDO but people regularly switch back to the other slower Halflife2 based stuff... A huge number of RPG's and MMO are slower maybe just about every one of them, Morrowwind and Oblivion were slower and yet critically acclaimed and well received games, and if we want to talk about D&D based games NWN is significantly slower but is probably the single most successful D&D based game ever.

And lets put this in perspective I have toons that have 10% striding and the difference between that and one that doesn't have it is nearly unnoticeable... The difference is literally taking one minute to run somewhere versus taking 54 seconds. LOL

In terms of Combat speed we're talking about 66 seconds to do the same DPS that used to take 60 seconds.

[edit] let me throw some other comparisons out there:
would you rage quit driving if you had to slow down from 33 miles an hour to 30 miles an hour? or from 25 to 22.5? Would you even notice without being hopelessly late for something and on your third Starbucks?

Sure you might be able to tell the difference between 66 MPH and 60 MPH without a speedo and you may prefer 66 over 60, but the truth is any semi-reasonable person can and often does settle into 60MPH without having a tantrum or road rage over it... In fact I'd wager that even "road rage" prone drivers have never actually raged over A 10% speed difference...

Even someone used to Autobahn speeds slowing down from 100MPH to 90MPH (**** Granny drivers!) is hardly noticeable (again unless you exaggerate massively).

Speaking of coffee do you notice when your server pours you 20 ounces instead of 22?

smatt

06-16-2010, 01:01 PM

And yet the combat in many very popular games is significantly slower... many twitch games at that, HL2 has slower combat, and slower appearing run speeds, TF2 might be pretty close or slightly faster in terms of hectic speed than DDO but people regularly switch back to the other slower Halflife2 based stuff... A huge number of RPG's and MMO are slower maybe just about every one of them, Morrowwind and Oblivion were slower and yet critically acclaimed and well received games, and if we want to talk about D&D based games NWN is significantly slower but is probably the single most successful D&D based game ever.

And lets put this in perspective I have toons that have 10% striding and the difference between that and one that doesn't have it is nearly unnoticeable... The difference is literally taking one minute to run somewhere versus taking 54 seconds. LOL

In terms of Combat speed we're talking about 66 seconds to do the same DPS that used to take 60 seconds.

[edit] let me throw some other comparisons out there:
would you rage quit driving if you had to slow down from 33 miles an hour to 30 miles an hour? or from 25 to 22.5? Would you even notice without being hopelessly late for something and on your third Starbucks?

Sure you might be able to tell the difference between 66 MPH and 60 MPH without a speedo and you may prefer 66 over 60, but the truth is any semi-reasonable person can and often does settle into 60MPH without having a tantrum or road rage over it... In fact I'd wager that even "road rage" prone drivers have never actually raged over A 10% speed difference...

Even someone used to Autobahn speeds slowing down from 100MPH to 90MPH (**** Granny drivers!) is hardly noticeable (again unless you exaggerate massively).

Speaking of coffee do you notice when your server pours you 20 ounces instead of 22?

I think you missed my point.. As I said many times when DDO-EU came out with the slower combat speed.... The *****ing whinning and complaining had little to do with the amount of damage doen in any 1 minute or whatever time frame you want to use. It had to do with the feel of the game... One of the big things DDO has going for it is combat... The feel of the combat is VERY important.... Far less important is exactly how much damage you actaully do each swing as oppossed to the look and feel of each swing.. At least for MOST players.... Video game players are very sensitive to even minute changes in how their character moves... It would be a very big mistake for them to slow down combat.. Most of the TWF (W also stading for whinny) will get over it..... Not all but most... And even then the amount of players bothered by the changes will be a small percentage, compared to IMO a vast majority of players that will absolutely hate it if over all combat speed, meaning the flow of animation within the game is slowed... Even the 10% of the DDO-EU roll-out caused a outcry that dwarfs the crying over this latest move...

While it seesm that a lot of people are really bothered by the latest proposed changes by the Devs, I think it's more forum oriented than in game.. I find FAR less outcry in game, most could careless for the most part. Whereas, when they were testing the slower combat on Lama almost 100% of the people said it sucked ass.... Don't come in here with the comparison to driving or this or that.. Not realistic comparisions.. I hate the metaphor game... This is a game, not driving.. Not a cup of coffee... It's a game ;) But if you do want to use a comparison.. Try the difference between .99 and $1.00.... While there's little significant difference, subconsciously there is a BIG difference in how people will react to .99 as oppossed ot $1.00. Btu again this is a game... The feel is very important... Not the reality....

And BTW, yes "I" do notice when my coffee is short.. Or when my cocktail is short poured :o I'm pretty sensitive when it comes to thinsg though.. I notice minute changes because I'm use to looking for them on a conscious level.

Meetch1972

06-16-2010, 09:22 PM

... Except for the example you cite, of course Rogues do seem to get the s**ty end of the stick... Not sure how they should compensate for that.

Trap making and Grenades... :D

Remember that U5 is more than just attacking the lag monster and DPS nerfing.

tasebro

06-16-2010, 09:49 PM

Uhhhh since when has any raid in DDO been a game of chance? The only real "random" nature in any significant quest/raid seems to be whether anyone will DC mid quest, whether those involved know their part, how well they are able to play it, and whether they will suffer from lag issues.

When you are beating a boss that's immune to vorpal, stat drains, paralysis etc, most of the random nature of the boss fight is turned into a statistical analysis which boils down to three letters: DPS. Take VoD for example. You don't know exactly how much damage you're going to do in the next 10 seconds, but can project pretty darn well how much damage you're personally going to do to Suulo over the next few minutes while he's got his back to you and stupidly focussing on the intimitank. Plus you've planned for the orthons, devils and bats. If I were DM I'd be mixing it up and turning Suulo around and using his strengths against the whole party who have generated far more combined aggro than the tank hiding behind his shield. I'd also be giving Suulo a lot less hit points to compensate for the pain he's going to be able to inflict on the rest of the party. But the DM here is a heuristic, and no matter what the developers do to make things "interesting"/"random", it's always countered by an "exploit" aka strategy - a formula for "beating the quest" with the resources you have.

A good group is a statistically moderated, well oiled machine, not a game of roulette. DDO is no more a game of chance when it comes to DPS than the weather bureau is guessing how much rain you'll get in the next couple of hours. Please don't suggest it is.
Meetch--
While it may well be the *tendency* of DPS players to min-max, to GM-proof their builds and thereby eliminate as much deviation from the mean, as high up on the curve as possible, that is as it should be--min-maxing is absolutely *fundamental* to what DnD is, and it is to be positively rewarded, with consideration, not punished with nerfage, or an ever-smaller carrot on an ever-longer pole (which is backarsewards); seeing how we as players *invest* in our builds to achieve those consistent, minmax results, they are "special" not "ordinary", and come with significant opportunity costs, so "game balance" justifications to nerfing DPS simply do not apply particularly when said nerfing merely devalues the return on investment for the sake of devaluation (which is the official stated intent in this case).
It may be minimized by twinked out DPS builds, but 'chance (i.e.: the consequences of not mitigating the effects of no/low rolls) still matters a great deal, otherwise players would not invest in building twinked out toons to mitigate our chances of low rolls.

But for the sake of discussion, lets' just ignore the "whole" being more than the sum-of-its'-parts, and focus ONLY on the "big picture", as indicated by Meech above--
If ppl enjoy playing this game, find it rewarding, then they will tend to invest time and money into it, thus rewarding turbine for a job well done, and knowing that otherwise, the game (and your "statistically moderated, well oiled machine") will go away.
The fact is that someone HAS to pay for it.
I am one of those "someones".

The way I choose to support turbine is
1. f2p/pay-as-you-go; investing money, translated into turbine points, which in turn are converted into content and/or buid upgrades (+2 tomes, xp pots, etc).
2. good word of mouth (free advertising, referrals), which inflates the paying customer base.
3. apply constructive criticism when turbine engages in nitwittery like nerfdate5, and having the integrity not to reward negative behavior with positive rewards (i.e. "money").

Revaluing the current return on heretofore "permanent" build investments (be they purchased or earned) is perfectly acceptable, so long as the result of the revaluation is as good or better than what the "previous value" was.
If such neutral/positive revaluation cannot be done for practical reasons, then reasonable accommodations must be at least offered (reclaiming purchased/eaten stat-tomes, greensteel deconstruction etc)--however, nerfate5 is in fact an intentional DEVALUATION (specifically for multiclass TWFers, as well as monks, S&B fvs and rogs too?), with apparently no direct remedial accommodations being offered to toon builders.

I have two lowbie toons that I would like very much to tweak, by investing in +2 all-stat tomes on (for about $25 per toon, so call it 50 USdollars), and level them to L20, but in view of the devaluation to my existing multiclass DPS TWFer toons coming in nerfdate5, and faced with the certainty of even more devaluations coming in nerfdate6, I am left with the conclusion that I am not inclined to throw good money after bad.

Meetch1972

06-17-2010, 06:38 AM

Meetch--
While it may well be the *tendency* of DPS players to min-max, to GM-proof their builds and thereby eliminate as much deviation from the mean, as high up on the curve as possible, that is as it should be--min-maxing is absolutely *fundamental* to what DnD is, and it is to be positively rewarded, with consideration, not punished with nerfage, or an ever-smaller carrot on an ever-longer pole (which is backarsewards); seeing how we as players *invest* in our builds to achieve those consistent, minmax results, they are "special" not "ordinary", and come with significant opportunity costs, so "game balance" justifications to nerfing DPS simply do not apply particularly when said nerfing merely devalues the return on investment for the sake of devaluation (which is the official stated intent in this case).
It may be minimized by twinked out DPS builds, but 'chance (i.e.: the consequences of not mitigating the effects of no/low rolls) still matters a great deal, otherwise players would not invest in building twinked out toons to mitigate our chances of low rolls.

But for the sake of discussion, lets' just ignore the "whole" being more than the sum-of-its'-parts, and focus ONLY on the "big picture", as indicated by Meech above--
If ppl enjoy playing this game, find it rewarding, then they will tend to invest time and money into it, thus rewarding turbine for a job well done, and knowing that otherwise, the game (and your "statistically moderated, well oiled machine") will go away.

You misunderstand me. In fact, the "statistically moderated, well oiled machine" I was referring to is a balanced group that knows what it's doing, listens to eachother, and has a good understanding that when 6 people enter a dungeon and 1 runs off by themselves they are taking a risk that may well be completely unnecessary. In no way was I talking about the game and its mechanics. Everybody knows that all hardware and software sucks - it's just a matter of whose/which sucks the least. That's one of the first laws of IT. :)

If DDO was a game of chance, I'd flip a coin to figure out whether it was worth playing tonight or not, and if I won then I'd assume I need go no further and not log on - if I lost then of course it's not worth it and again I wouldn't log on. DDO is NOT a game of chance. Chance only comes into it when the group is actively taking risks (for fun, greed, because they're borderline incompetent, without leadership, or otherwise) or subject to factors outside the game rules like DCing or backhoe induced lag. D&D relies far more on luck than DDO, and last time I checked (which admittedly was a while ago) a good DM didn't necessarily reward players for being uber built with uber gear. The rewards ALSO were given for making good choices, doing things that kept the game interesting, and role-playing their weaknesses as well as their strengths. My Lawful Good L20 Pally from DDO could not live with himself in the world of D&D because he's killed too many good and/or law abiding NPCs who didn't have to die. In D&D he would have tried to follow the path of the righteous, smiting evil doers, sparing the innocent and either reasoning with or subduing the misled, not lopping their heads off because they dared wave a dagger at him out of fear. And a good DM would probably give bonus points for a more favourable and true-to-alignment outcome of the encounter, especially if the influential powers of the pally work as hoped.

As to the anti-nerf debate, I have a solution that won't touch the carrot for TWFers at all:
* Leave TWF alone. Completely.
* Make THF more powerful. Say 20%.
* Give all sorcs and wizards 15% higher DCs/spell penetration and damage, and 5% more spell points.
* Do whatever needs to be done for those intermediate classes that don't rely on TWF. Perhaps give them a couple of extra cheap constitution ability points.
* and finally, give all NPCs 20% more hit points.

There you go, no TWF nerfing. Absurd, you say? Absolutely! But if TWF is over-powered compared to everything else, and the mob holds up signs in front of Turbine saying "Down with Nerf!" enough for them to put a stop to the change, what other choice is there? One classes' min-max curve should average out the same as another, on the whole, so either bring down one over-powered aspect, or raise everything else. If THF proves more effective for my build, I'll switch, no complaints. It would be nice if Turbine gave me the dragonshard I need at least...

I am still for this "nerf" with the wish that mob/boss HPs are duly adjusted so the long battles don't needlessly draw out any longer than they currently do. Maybe there should be an animation for the TWF nerf, showing the character thinking about taking a hit and deciding not to, or pulling the attack, like in those kung fu movies where the 20 bad guys all wait their turn to charge in and get beaten up by the hero. I would also like to see the to-hit cumulatively climb up 1 point (possibly including damage) on the primary hand for the next attack each time they decide not to attack with the off hand. We can only wait and see what else is done in the name of balance...

I've rambled enough... peace out.

tasebro

06-18-2010, 12:56 AM

You misunderstand me...... We can only wait and see what else is done in the name of balance...

I've rambled enough... peace out.

No, Meech, I understand you very well. With all due respect, I know a red herring when I see one.
This is business, *not* personal.

No amount of post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc justifications--particularly employing "Game Balance" as an excuse--will ever "justify" the coming devaluations in future nerfdates. However, Turbine choosing to take the high road here, by providing some sort of avenue for reasonable accommodation to players wanting to modify (or deconstruct/reclaim) their soon-to-be-not-so-permanent Player Character builds, WILL at least show remedial good faith intent; absent that, then it can be safely assumed that either Turbine has enough money that they are not interested in supporting their established customer base, or they are so busy counting their money that they have no time to bother with such trivial matters. Either way it makes my decision real easy, now doesn't it?

Meetch1972

06-18-2010, 03:54 AM

No, Meech, I understand you very well. With all due respect, I know a red herring when I see one.
This is business, *not* personal.

Taseo,

It's their business to provide the game. As far as I'm concerned, it IS personal as it's a personal decision to play the game. I've given Turbine money too, no regrets. Chill out, man!

<stuff deleted for brevity> ...
Either way it makes my decision real easy, now doesn't it?

Some would eventually get bored/lose interest. Others will ragequit over matters large or small. Others adapt. Others endure. Yet other sad individuals live there regardless of whether they're "feeling the love". :)

It's your decision taro for whether the glass is half empty or half full, or to take a "nerfdate" as an opportunity in disguise. I spent the 10k+ points I bought on unlocking stuff, and earned all my +2 tomes in game, 'cos the numbers don't mean all that much to me and I made a conscious decision to budget on buying with my points predominantly things you cannot get for gold.

Do people read disclaimers these days? I'm having trouble finding an official software disclaimer with the intent to look for a phrase that says the DDO developers will never screw you over just for kicks. Maybe it's linked from the client, which isn't where I am right now... I dunno. In any case, I'm getting what I need out of the game, regardless of how big or small the carrots are on the end of particular poles. Ultimately, Eladrin gave us all a heads up, which probably wasn't required by anything in the rules/disclaimer. Kudos to the dev team for inviting feedback, and I'm hoping that this all means something to them. I would still like to think the devs listen to the constructive criticisms and ideas put forward, 'cos above all at the end of the day I'd like the game to stay interesting (or become even more so) and challenging.

I'll stop flogging this particular dead horse. Cheer all you want. :p

AbsynthMinded

06-18-2010, 12:49 PM

Trap making and Grenades... :D

Remember that U5 is more than just attacking the lag monster and DPS nerfing.

Its nearly impossible to get a group that waits for a rogue to disarm traps any more, and now they are going to wait for rogues to set a mine? What the hell was Turbine thinking.. These 'Grenades' had better be fracking awesome.

Also as I had mentioned somewhere in the pages 70'ish, It doesn't matter how they change the game code or math, as long as the feel of the situations do not change. The conjecture and Test Server investigations, although appealing, are meaningless until they launch it to a live heavily populated lag burdened server. Then the real 'Testing' will begin and the player response will have real merits.

IronClan

06-18-2010, 01:50 PM

Its nearly impossible to get a group that waits for a rogue to disarm traps any more, and now they are going to wait for rogues to set a mine? What the hell was Turbine thinking.. These 'Grenades' had better be fracking awesome.
.

And herein lies one of the games biggest problems from a new player standpoint IMO... (and I'm not talking about not having enough thrown explosive devices, I sure as hell hope they aren't called grenades... Oil flasks ok.).

azrael4h

06-18-2010, 04:18 PM

Sure you might be able to tell the difference between 66 MPH and 60 MPH without a speedo and you may prefer 66 over 60, but the truth is any semi-reasonable person can and often does settle into 60MPH without having a tantrum or road rage over it... In fact I'd wager that even "road rage" prone drivers have never actually raged over A 10% speed difference...

Even someone used to Autobahn speeds slowing down from 100MPH to 90MPH (**** Granny drivers!) is hardly noticeable (again unless you exaggerate massively).

Speaking of coffee do you notice when your server pours you 20 ounces instead of 22?

I know exactly what speed I'm driving by the rpms the engine is running and what gear I'm in. For example in my daily driver, at 2900rpm in 6th gear, I am going 65mph. At 3100rpm, 70. I could do that back when I was 19, as I had a car (Honda, which are electrical nightmares and highly unreliable) which only occasionally had a working speedometer. I can also gauge my speed by mile markers as well, a bit more roughly. I use that as a test to see how close my speedometer is when testing a used car. It's a simple skill, one anyone who drives should know. Everyone in my family does the same thing, reads the tach to gauge speed.

I've also had to slow down by 5mph, and had the idiot behind me run up to my rear bumper, flipping me off and cursing. One tried to hit me later, coming around to pass, then jerking over into my lane before getting past. This is a common occurrence. Especially in the evening when coming home from work. I rarely manage to get enough speed to leave first gear in the evening on the highway.

And as someone who bleeds coffee instead of blood, I not only notice how low the cup is, I get annoyed.

WNxDaCraw

06-19-2010, 02:33 AM

It reduces the number of permanent speed increases in the game that are doing nasty things behind the scenes, significantly reduces the overhead in a bunch of the calculations, and makes the off-hand more unpredictable than before. It is also (on average) reducing the frequency of off-hand attacks.

I am actively seeking to avoid making broad changes to existing treasure systems.

If fixing the server speed is the issue why not just make an across the board clock slow down for the game. So every thing gets a hair slower with out making broad changes to existing combat systems.

It just seems to convenient that your lag fix happens to be the 2 characters I hear complaints about. If you want to nerf them like all the other MMO's then just do it. Players are used to it, thats why new games can start up because the older ones start nerfing classes untill the game isn't worth playing.

Thanks for your time

IronClan

06-19-2010, 08:31 AM

If fixing the server speed is the issue why not just make an across the board clock slow down for the game. So every thing gets a hair slower with out making broad changes to existing combat systems.

It just seems to convenient that your lag fix happens to be the 2 characters I hear complaints about. If you want to nerf them like all the other MMO's then just do it. Players are used to it, thats why new games can start up because the older ones start nerfing classes untill the game isn't worth playing.

Thanks for your time

Amazingly in 3000 odd posts yours is not a new thought, and you're not the first to erroneously imply they are doing something sneaky. Apearently you're not the first (or 500th) person to miss the part in the OP about "reducing TWF's extreme dominance". It is a nerf with some small lag benefits along with some other attempts at lag reduction (the clunky double strike thing). Which is spelled out pretty clearly.

I totally agree with you on slowing the game or just combat down a bit (preferably slowly over time) to reduce the effect of spikes of lag induced by sudden server and/or client congestion... But apparently the user base is steadfastly against even the slightest change to the speed and prefers this combo of nerf/stacking haste reduction (which might very well prove not to be enough, which might entail greensteel nerfs to follow)

IMO this is somewhat akin to a bunch of drivers preferring their Mustang be "nerfed" of 30hp (10% of 300hp) and possibly more later; than slow down from 100 MPH to 90 MPH...

Sigmend_Divine

06-20-2010, 11:40 PM

anyone else think its odd that the fighter capstone is equal to a level 4 spell? or that 12 levels of ranger makes you superior in every way to any TWFing fighter?

my current build is a twf kopesh ftr and with aclarity and haste 4 i think he can keep up with any tempest build

OpNazzz

06-21-2010, 02:08 AM

If haste is the problem with server lag, why are you leaving in enhancment haste and spell haste? Why not just eliminate all forms of haste from the game? This seams like the fairest way to go. It isn't right to leave rouge , fighter and monk haste enhancment boosts and allow casters to haste buff parties for 3 minutes if this is trully what is causing the servers to lag.

When children read what you have posted they might believe what you say, but when an adult reads it and see's between the lines it has the taint of a white lie.

Also while you are at it since you want to eliminated the perma haste from my Tempest, calling him a Tempest now doesnt even sound right. These are the words in the Tempest description.

Tempest I, II, III - These dynamic rangers have more skill and expertise in fighting with a weapon in each hand than anyone else. Constantly training, they can eventually become tempests of whirling steel.

That sure sounds like they should fight better and faster with two weapons than any other to me.

Please if you have to press nerfdate 5 through and gimp my ranger, rename the ranger prestige line to Ginsu or Subpar fighter, something else other than Tempest. Thxs

IronClan

06-21-2010, 09:46 AM

If haste is the problem with server lag, why are you leaving in enhancment haste and spell haste? Why not just eliminate all forms of haste from the game? This seams like the fairest way to go. It isn't right to leave rouge , fighter and monk haste enhancment boosts and allow casters to haste buff parties for 3 minutes if this is trully what is causing the servers to lag.

When children read what you have posted they might believe what you say, but when an adult reads it and see's between the lines it has the taint of a white lie.

So you're an adult and you don't see how 115% might be okay (maybe just at the threshhold) but 130% (just above the threshold) might be too much? Lets say you're going down the road and a Cop clocks you at 60 in a 55... What happens? Well you're an adult so you know he's probably not going to even look up from his newspaper... Now try the same thing at 10MPH faster... Suddenly not only is he pulling you (at least where I live) he's giving you a reckless driving ticket that is twice as expensive as a normal speeding ticket... Wow that 10MPH really made a difference.

OpNazzz

06-21-2010, 01:29 PM

IronClan

06-21-2010, 02:39 PM

@Alhaz1970,
Your analogy is based on there being a "speed limit" everyone has to follow to prevent server lag, in nerfdate 5 this is not true if they remove selected haste and leave some of the haste in the game.

If there is now going to be a "speed limit" to prevent the lag from haste problem then all of the haste should be removed from the game.

Thank you for helping to clarify my point Alhaz1970.

Well you clarified that you missed my point :) 15% haste on top of normal combat speed = 60-65 MPH in the analogy while "stacking" haste boosts on top of haste = 70-75 MPH in the analogy...

Surely you can differentiate the difference between 115% combat speed and 125% combat speed? Where 125% represents (say) fighter alacrity on top of normal haste spell?

The point is they seem to be saying that STACKING haste bonus' on top of haste are causing issues... not haste by itself... which would be the reason they don't need to just get rid of the whole haste concept.

Or they are hoping to only have to change the stacking and might also have to nerf haste spell if the double strike thing doesn't do the trick...

It gets very frustrating seeing how many people seem to come into this thread with the idea that lag is one big On/Off switch and that each attempt to "fix it" is a finger flipping the lag switch off... Instead of the reality... of being an incremental series of slow downs, backups and bottlenecks that all conspire together... the "fix" or better put: the treatment, for lag is also going to be a series of streamlining designs, reductions in bottlenecks and improvements in efficiency...

I think the Devs could do a better job of explaining that, but apparently they aren't nearly as interested in this thread as they were indicating before the deluge of anti-nerf sentiment.

OpNazzz

06-21-2010, 03:01 PM

IronClan

06-21-2010, 04:39 PM

Ok i'll put it this way then. If Tempest is supposto be the best TWF with the fastest attacks per the prestige enhancment notes, should'nt Tempest be the one who keeps its haste? Or possibally given an enhancment bonus to haste like the rest who are not supposto be the best or fastest at TWF? The main selling point on Tempest is to be faster and better at TWF not one or the other.

<edit to add> It is not like Tempest has the option to skill into THF like a fighter does. It's TWF or bows for Ranger.

Pretty off topic but IMO you can use ranger levels to pretty much make any build you want. Now a THF ranger is severely outside the box thinking and will never out DPS a min/maxed THF fighter or Barb (or a tempest ranger), but you'll have 7 feats just like a Pali or Barb, plus you'll have favored enemy DPS boosts, Ranged feats (ranged is getting attention soon) and TWF feats for free just in case you wanted to dual wield vorpals, and you'll get ranger spells.

No one who thinks only a Barb or WF should ever use THF will be impressed but if you wanted to build a THF that had self buffing, self healing, full BAB, with ecxellent skills and nice synergies with a 1 rogue and 1 monk splashes the argument could be made for a THF ranger ... Of course with TWF so much better than THF in all but the most extreme examples of twitch/Epic SoS why would anyone not use those free TWF feats?

Natashaelle

06-22-2010, 03:16 AM

I've been testing (soloing) bastard sword & board on a couple of lowbies on Lama, and my overall conclusion, compared to other S&B toons that I've played, is that quests are significantly faster to run, and levelling up is noticeably easier.

Khellendros13

06-22-2010, 03:58 AM

Meetch1972

06-22-2010, 04:01 AM

Isn't the speculation that mobs have lower HP on Lammania?

/popcorn This might be the good part! Edge of the seat suspense here!

I really want to know the answer to that. Anyone?

Krag

06-22-2010, 04:35 AM

Isn't the speculation that mobs have lower HP on Lammania?

Not a speculation, but a solid fact confirmed by devs.

AbsynthMinded

06-22-2010, 11:02 AM

Amazingly in 3000 odd posts yours is not a new thought, and you're not the first to erroneously imply they are doing something sneaky.

If you believe that they [Turbine] are being intellectually honest, you are delusional. Regardless of how this will effect us, there are things going on that they are not telling us, will never tell us, and will deny the existence of once we start seeing the undocumented effects on our play experience.

IronClan

06-22-2010, 01:03 PM

If you believe that they [Turbine] are being intellectually honest, you are delusional.

Whats intellectually dishonest, is saying things like "they're hiding a nerf in a lag fix" (or variations on that theme) because doing so riles up more people who are ignorant of the OP or subsequent posts by Eladrin. It's always easier to polarize an issue into black and whites and then attack it; than it is to recognize that it's a complicated multi-faceted issue. No, it's a much more successful tactic to spread simplistic FUD and intentionally inflammatory posts (such as calling someone delusional because he doesn't agree with your viewpoint).

As far as I am concerned anyone who doesn't interpret "extreme dominance" as a cut and dried no bones admonition of needing to be BALANCED by a NERF, or doesn't bother to read the OP where it's spelled out in terms anyone who can operate the intertoobs should be able to understand, has no business talking about delusions or intellectual dishonesty... And is probably being willfully obtuse so they can grind their narrative axe.

Regardless of how this will effect us, there are things going on that they are not telling us, will never tell us, and will deny the existence of once we start seeing the undocumented effects on our play experience.

And you are accusing me of being delusional? Are you describing the CIA's black helicopters or a game developer that makes entertainment and doesn't have time to document every tiny bit of minutia that some small percentage of the user base even gives a cr@p about?

Natashaelle

06-22-2010, 02:19 PM

Isn't the speculation that mobs have lower HP on Lammania?

Hmmm, thanx for that information, but I was really comparing between previous S&B lowby soloing on Lama and S&B with a bastard sword now ;)

My lowbies on the Euro servers have even less trouble levelling up, because they are outrageously twinked :D

AbsynthMinded

06-22-2010, 07:37 PM

Whats intellectually dishonest, is saying things like "they're hiding a nerf in a lag fix" (or variations on that theme) because doing so riles up more people who are ignorant of the OP or subsequent posts by Eladrin. It's always easier to polarize an issue into black and whites and then attack it; than it is to recognize that it's a complicated multi-faceted issue. No, it's a much more successful tactic to spread simplistic FUD and intentionally inflammatory posts (such as calling someone delusional because he doesn't agree with your viewpoint).

As far as I am concerned anyone who doesn't interpret "extreme dominance" as a cut and dried no bones admonition of needing to be BALANCED by a NERF, or doesn't bother to read the OP where it's spelled out in terms anyone who can operate the intertoobs should be able to understand, has no business talking about delusions or intellectual dishonesty... And is probably being willfully obtuse so they can grind their narrative axe.

And you are accusing me of being delusional? Are you describing the CIA's black helicopters or a game developer that makes entertainment and doesn't have time to document every tiny bit of minutia that some small percentage of the user base even gives a cr@p about?

As I've mentioned before, the request for our input here is a fake. They don't really care about our opinions or suggestions, especially those that run counter to their predetermined agenda. I can agree with some that the thread is essentially dead and player to player dialogue or debate is purely academic, unrelated to their agenda.

Call it a NERF a LAG FIX or what have you, the core of what they are really trying to assess is the overall reaction to their changing the core of systems we players understand. Likewise as I've mentioned, the end result is irrelevant as long as players perceive the game environment as unchanged in relation to difficulty of overcoming the quest obstacles. In fact, Lag aside, as long as the game environment appears to be more or less the same for time/effort vs. risk/reward no one will give a flip what they do to the code. However when this goes live and everyone gets the impression of 'it just isn't right' then Turbine will have PR issues. This of coarse is beyond the undocumented or unintended issues which always arise for such a change.

The problems that exist are caused by implementing a complex crafting system for phenomenal powers on arms and armor which in of themselves are generating considerable stress on the systems. This escalation of the crafting is necessary for the ever increasingly difficult content, which is another realm of bad design decisions on Turbines part. The suggestion that speed was ever the real issue is also a Fake, because if that were truly the case then the suggestion of a blanket slowing down of combat could, should and would be considered first. As they believe changing the core systems is the better solution, there is much more going on than is being suggested. Simply stated, they are blinding us with science avoiding the simple solutions.

As an aside, trusting any gaming company to do what's right when so many feel that it's decisions are wrong suggests some delusional thinking somewhere. I can assert that it could be in either camp or both. I understand that a company has to do the best with what they got. I also understand that expectations of excellence are often left unfulfilled. I did not call you delusional for not agreeing with my or anyone's argument, only in that you may be idealistic in your belief that they are ethical when they say changing the core systems is the right move.

tasebro

06-23-2010, 06:42 PM

...the core of what they ["they" = "turbine"? "devs?] are really trying to assess is the overall reaction to their changing the core of systems we players understand...as long as the game environment appears to be more or less the same for time/effort vs. risk/reward no one will give a flip what they do to the code. However when this goes live and everyone gets the impression of 'it just isn't right' then Turbine will have PR issues....

Agreed. (excellent summary BTW)
Therefore it follows that the only relevant issue that interests Turbine, is ultimately money;--not "change", not "excellence", not arbitrary "Game Balance" justifications, but "money"; i.e.: maximum income for a minimum return on their investments (i.e. funding for development/maintenance vs profit margin production on same).

That is business.

Coincidentally, that just happens to be my "single issue" interest on the receiving end of this:
As a pay-as-you-go player, I have an expectation of a given "return" on my investment of time&money that I put into buying pay content and building toons to interface with that content.
When I like Turbines' "product", I reward them by :
1. investing money in buying (desirable) content with purchased turbine points;
2. investing money in buying (desirable) build upgrades with purchased turbine points;
3. promoting same by good word of mouth to encourage others to do likewise.

My "return" on this investment (or perception thereof) is directly proportional to my continued interest in investing further in DDO via turbine points.
Any devaluation of my now-purchased content or build upgrades will naturally be perceived by myself (and many others) as a acute disincentive to provide further reward (i.e.: money) to Turbine. Official statement of intent to do just that in nerfdate5 greatly reduces my level of confidence in my investments yielding expected return past nerfdate5, making me decidedly reluctant to risk further investment only to see the result is just another nerf.

Point is: I dont want ANYONE'S builds to get nerfed--
My builds get nerfed: I loose.
The players I like to run with get their builds nerfed, get disgusted, find something else to do, I loose.

Whether or not that will be considered a "PR issue" by Turbine is yet to be seen, but frankly I am not optimistic, gauging from official statements of intent, and the nature of business, and market pressures, which will ultimately determine the outcome.

...This escalation ... is necessary for the ...bad design decisions on Turbines part. ...they ["they" = "turbine"? "devs?] believe changing the core systems is the better solution, there is much more going on than is being suggested. Simply stated, they are blinding us with science avoiding the simple solutions....

Agreed.
But again, Turbines' ultimate motivation here--as with any for-profit business--is simply to get maximum income/return for a given investment.
The marketing behind that motivation is based on official intent, and spinning the story to make it sound as good/appetizing as can be to buyers.
So you get nerfdate5 as the outcome, sold to us as the notion that "'less' is the new 'more'".

I have no doubt that from Turbines' point of view, changing the core systems is the "right move", and indeed "ethical" on the balance. Clearly, the business model established by blizzco, ("the WoW model") makes money handoverfist catering to the lowest common denominator, so the overwhelming tendency to follow that model is clear, and given enough pressure to do so, they will do just that, even tho it means mediocrity.
However, the obvious downside of following the "WoW model" is that market is already taken (in spades), and in my view the prudent business decision here for Turbine is to take the high road, and cater to the existing DnD customer base, and promote excellence over lowest common denominator marketing chasing after blizzcos' scraps. If I wanted to play WoW, I would do so. I don't want to for good reason.

Of course taking the high road means not jacking with the core game mechanics to sucker invested players into buying ever more turbine points to repair the cyclical damages done, and it means trusting your paying customers to remain loyal, so its a two way street, but the payoff is there, as it is now, and has been so since DDO went F2P, so maybe the new ownership has yet to clue in on that yet.
We shall see.

To put a dollar value on the costs vs benefits here:
I currently have two toon builds that I am interested in leveling to 20, and so I am in the market for purchasing +2 to all stat tomes for them both to get some good mileage out of...but with nerfdate5 looming, I am very much disinclined to invest in another 50 bucks worth of turbine points to purchase those build upgrades only to see those upgraded toons get nerfed next fall (like my main is fixing to get nerfed in two weeks).
So that means 50 bucks worth of Turbine points goes unpurchased, and those toons remain unupgraded, in a semi-limbo, waiting to see how bad nerfdate5 will be when it goes live.
While I am sure that is in no way a "PR issue" for Turbine, it is an indicator for me as to where things are headed.

The obligation clearly falls upon Turbine to do the right thing here, and if nerfs must be made to ANY builds for practical reasons, then the players deserve as good or better deal than they now have, or if that is not practical either, then some sort of avenue for making FREE REPAIRS to builds must in good faith at least be offered (free reincarns, reclaiming of purchased tomes, deconstruction of greensteel, etc).

Meetch1972

06-23-2010, 10:25 PM

Agreed. (excellent summary BTW)
Therefore it follows that the only relevant issue that interests Turbine, is ultimately money;--not "change", not "excellence", not arbitrary "Game Balance" justifications, but "money"; i.e.: maximum income for a minimum return on their investments (i.e. funding for development/maintenance vs profit margin production on same).

That is business.

<stuff deleted 'cos you can read it above...>

The obligation clearly falls upon Turbine to do the right thing here, and if nerfs must be made to ANY builds for practical reasons, then the players deserve as good or better deal than they now have, or if that is not practical either, then some sort of avenue for making FREE REPAIRS to builds must in good faith at least be offered (free reincarns, reclaiming of purchased tomes, deconstruction of greensteel, etc).

+1 rep the detail in summarising player concerns.

I'm STILL just hoping that there is indeed a compensation for the DPS nerf for TWF by lowering NPC hps in line with it - then IMHO it's technically not so much a nerf for TWF as a scaling down, and other classes DPS boost.

The slower rate of combat will still feel different/wrong for many who do feel the DPS. Others won't care. I happen to mostly fall into the latter camp, and it will help me that I'm not running a high attack rate build at the moment - the thing that keeps me from being entirely in don't care territory is the thought that others may give up because "it's the last straw" or such and detract from the volume of the player base.

I'm still not sure many people understand that the OP isn't about trying to cloak the nerf/balance adjustment in a fix intended to help sort one aspect of lag issues, but change both at the same time, presumably because they figure both need to be done. That isn't necessarily a good idea because, as has already been stated, the first rule of performance tuning is to change one thing at a time. In reality it comes down to how many times you can take the system down to make adjustments before players start to leave 'cos they can never get on when it suits them, and a rules change SHOULD be able to coexist with a performance fix without too much risk.

I'm sure Eladrin and others have all the feedback they wanted, and then some. Numbers from the OP have been tweaked, maybe some other stuff done behind the scenes, maybe not. Once the dust settles after release we may see other adjustments, or if it really is all that bad, a reversal of the rules change. I'll wait and see, with a reserve of popcorn at the ready.

MaJiK_13

06-25-2010, 09:27 AM

Sarezar

06-25-2010, 06:25 PM

I don't know if this was posted before or if it helps but I get the same lag when I solo and there are many monsters hitting me.

If I go in Reaver's Fate solo and have 30-40 elementals casting ball of lightning on me, with sent packet at 6kbps and without attacking anything, I get identical lag with the one I experience in Shroud with a full party. Same with other monsters attacking me.

I'm sure balls of lightning and monster attacks have physicial chesks too, but they are definitely not 5-6 monks and 2WF with multiple weapon effects. Also the probelm can be caused from the monsters too, not just from the player's side.

It looks like it's something else that is causing it. Or "and" something else...

dopamine

06-25-2010, 06:43 PM

Sarezar

06-25-2010, 08:03 PM

pretty obvious the "lag" is just a smokescreen, maybe to increase DDOstore sales

The "lag" is definitely there. And I am sure they want to solve it. I am worried that they don't know what is causing it though, as others have said, too. It's a very obvious and distinct kind of lag that started after a very obvious and distinct time. Unless it's just a case of too many players started playing a game that was never designed for these numbers and now they have to go through every bit of code and concept to see which one(s) has the biggest impact.

Dvarwen

06-25-2010, 09:52 PM

The easy solution would be to remove the dice rolls, confirmations and misses from the combat log. Only have the damage being dealt in the log.

Sarezar

06-26-2010, 07:19 AM

The easy solution would be to remove the dice rolls, confirmations and misses from the combat log. Only have the damage being dealt in the log.

It's not that. We've done tons of quests and raids where everyone had disabled everything from the combat log. It did not change a thing.

shablala

06-26-2010, 01:04 PM

Changes are being introduced in an attempt to mitigate some of the unarmed/TWF DPS lag experienced in high level (raid) content, as well as an attempt to bring TWF more in line with THF.

These changes reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the TWF style’s extreme dominance over THF. Estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other.

Now for the love of God, can you stop talking about the "lag" issue? obviously it is not the ONLY reason for this change. In fact I am very confident it is NOT even the main reason.

People saying "It's on Lamannia so that's it, no changes will be made"...BS! Lamannia is not the end to any nerf or update. You guys are going crazy over things that surely will not gimp your ability to finish ANY quest/raid on ANY difficulty including Epic. In the meantime you are ignoring the other things that were being discussed. There WILL be more updates, there will be more balancing, if a certain nerf will play out to be totally bad, it WILL be reverted (as it was said). There will be future updates that will ride ontop of the current ones which hopefully in the end will make for a better experience and maybe even make more sense when it all fits together. You cant possibly expect one update to solve anything and everything.

Some of you are acting like this is the first MMO you've ever played. Most of you, especially those that are playing around on Lamannia are not being objective whatsoever. All you did was compared a copy of your toon with the changes vs your current toon and screaming bloody murder nerf because you're not seeing the same numbers flying above.

smatt

06-26-2010, 02:11 PM

AbsynthMinded

06-26-2010, 04:35 PM

Over the years Turbine has put in game development in several areas which ultimately were a bad idea. 12 man Raids, Green Steel Crafting, top level 18-20 content which is nothing like any content before..

The company choose to go certain directions knowing, more or less, the stress they were inviting to the hardware and bandwidth. They could have done it better, no one much argues that point. Working with things as they are now Turbine/DEVs continue to follow certain precepts that by historical evidence do not solve anything. At best they are just buying more time before they have to lobotomize something else in effort to save that which is already fracking things up.

My big peeve is Green Steel and I feel the whole system should be shut down and the items created become very very fragile while not being able to be attuned to prevent permanent damage. There after the content which drives the need for 'Custom Raid Equipment' should be reworked to require just 6 man parties using commonly available or lootable equipment. Or simply stated, stop the concept of Raiding in a D&D world where such would have been impossible to accomplish over a tabletop. 6 players is hard enough, 12 is insane. Even if you had each player operating 2 characters each, the logistics are just mind twisting.

Krado

06-26-2010, 05:15 PM

My big peeve is Green Steel and I feel the whole system should be shut down and the items created become very very fragile while not being able to be attuned to prevent permanent damage.

Not to relaunch a potentially pointless debate, but wouldn't that aggravate a lot of people who pretty much decked their toon head to toe in greensteel ?

There after the content which drives the need for 'Custom Raid Equipment' should be reworked to require just 6 man parties using commonly available or lootable equipment.

12 mans contnent is quite fun in my opinion and I must say I would miss them very much if they were to go away. Agreed, it require management from the raid leader, but it does open lots of possibility (for example the Twilight Forge multiple parts puzzle). Making only 6 man contnent will make them a bit more LFG friendly, but as of now on Khyber, 12 mans are pugged on a regular basis. Of course, I cannot talk for the other servers on that one.

As for the lag part, I don't really see how that would reduce the load on the servers, as instead of 1 group of 12 (12 ppl and 1 instance to manage) you will get 2 groups (12 ppl and 2 instance to manage). I'm not Math genius, but wouldn't that cause more problems ?

At any rate, I will still give DDO a fair chance. Maybe all the changes will create something better, who know ?

Lets try it out when the update is live ;)

Sarezar

06-26-2010, 08:28 PM

That's more likely related to the amount of active AI entities in one area....

As has been said many times there are MANY causes for lag... Some of which are obvious and many of which aren't...

That is true, but each type of lag is different. The one I mentioned in my post is identical to the one you get in shroud etc. It's not like the lag we used to get when someone was chased by 50+ monsters.

Dim_Mak

06-27-2010, 05:29 AM

90-100MPH

As an experienced motorbike racing rider i can tell you that 15MPH is a huge difference.
For amateurs maybe not, but for those who are on the higher level it's a heaven and earth.
;)

Necron7

06-27-2010, 10:19 AM

I know I said I wouldn't be posting or replying anymore, but this is just tooo funny.

Lots of people have said that Turbine is only doing this TWF nerf to bleed it's customers for more money to respec their toons. Then there are those players who believed Turbine when they said it was about lag then balance, and it is to those people I say HERE IS YOUR SIGN!

BACK BY POPULAR DEMAND!
This Weekend Only!
+5 Lesser & +5 Greater Reincarnation

Now you too can spend 2800 turbine points or $50+ to respec your toon to get rid of those 6 useless Ranger levels. LOL

I'M still LMFAO!!

krud

06-27-2010, 10:38 AM

Now you too can spend 2800 turbine points or $50+ to respec your toon to get rid of those 6 useless Ranger levels. LOL

I'M still LMFAO!!

Only for the people who needlessly panic over a few percentage points. If someone is gullible enough to spend real money to 'fix' something that ain't broke, that's not turbine's fault.

Necron7

06-27-2010, 11:14 AM

Only for the people who needlessly panic over a few percentage points. If someone is gullible enough to spend real money to 'fix' something that ain't broke, that's not turbine's fault.

Whats a few percentage points? 10%, 15%, 20%? To you 10-20% might not be a big deal, but to others had this TWF nerf been inplace before they created their TWF toon they might not have created it, and to them Turbine just "broke" their toon.

Lets say that you have worked hard and finally built your dream car. Your Acura NSX (level20). Now your working and saving to add your dual exhaust, dual turbo and intake (TWF GS). Only to be told you are now going to fast, so we are swapping your NSX for a Honda Acord (Nerf) to reduce your speed (Lag) and make everyone feel the same (balance). Now how would you feel about all that time, money, and hardwork you just waisted?

AbsynthMinded

06-27-2010, 11:21 AM

Lets try it out when the update is live ;)

There is little choice for it now.. :rolleyes:

sacredtheory

06-27-2010, 11:29 AM

I seriously have nothing constructive to add to this thread other than I can't believe it's still going on, and there are still people upset that their make-believe, virtual characters are so nerfed that they're now broken. To those of you that believe that, I say get a different hobby (I mean that sincerely, not being rude). Try homebrewing. It's fun! I make the beer I drink, try it, you'll love it.

knightgf

06-27-2010, 11:43 AM

I nominate this thread to be in the "Hall of Fail" section of the forums for the disgrace that Turbine has created on this game for an update that is so negatively received by its players!

/signed

krud

06-27-2010, 11:55 AM

Whats a few percentage points? 10%, 15%, 20%? To you 10-20% might not be a big deal, but to others had this TWF nerf been inplace before they created their TWF toon they might not have created it, and to them Turbine just "broke" their toon.

Lets say that you have worked hard and finally built your dream car. Your Acura NSX (level20). Now your working and saving to add your dual exhaust, dual turbo and intake (TWF GS). Only to be told you are now going to fast, so we are swapping your NSX for a Honda Acord (Nerf) to reduce your speed (Lag) and make everyone feel the same (balance). Now how would you feel about all that time, money, and hardwork you just waisted?
And what are you going to replace it with? That 5%-10% nerf is pretty much across the board for all the top dps, so you end up relatively unchanged. You'll just spec into something else that's been hit with the same nerf as everyone else.

Necron7

06-27-2010, 12:15 PM

And what are you going to replace it with? That 5%-10% nerf is pretty much across the board for all the top dps, so you end up relatively unchanged. You'll just spec into something else that's been hit with the same nerf as everyone else.

Well with Ranger Tempest losing their 10% attack speed they take the biggest hit losing 10% on top of the the 5-10% the rest suffer, so they are useless. With pally's Zeal and the fighters Capstone taking hits that leaves THF Barbs the least effected by this NERF. I'm not even going to mention Rogue's and Monks; may you RIP. The choice is obvious. Turbine should rename the game to DDSO (dungeons and dragons sort of) the THF-Barbarian and Casters Saga.

krud

06-27-2010, 12:27 PM

Well with Ranger Tempest losing their 10% attack speed they take the biggest hit losing 10% on top of the the 5-10% the rest suffer, so they are useless. With pally's Zeal and the fighters Capstone taking hits that leaves THF Barbs the least effected by this NERF. The choice is obvious. Turbine should rename the game to DDSO (dungeons and dragons sort of) the THF-Barbarian and Casters Saga.
If you take away anything from all this (and every other adjustment that has occurred over the years) it's that no build is going to stand head and shoulders above the rest (at least not for long). They will change THF twitch, and if you don't believe it, I got a bridge I can sell you.

With an attitude that "-5% = useless" of course you're gonna feel that you have to spend money to fix every single change turbine comes up with. The rest of us will save our money and continue succesfully completing quests with our "useless" builds just as easily as we did before.

If you feel the need to always have the FotM at your fingertips, again, that's not turbine's problem.

SquelchHU

06-27-2010, 12:29 PM

oh btw for you PnP guys out there. how many of you ACTUALLY rolled for every swing of your weapon? and i means all of them!!!

I did. 5 attacks a round isn't that bad. 2-4 attacks a second is, if done manually.

SquelchHU

06-27-2010, 12:40 PM

I agree with what you're saying with the exception that I don't agree about people wanting the game to be more like D&D. This nerf actually makes TWF more like core D&D rules (except the double strike mechanic but that's haste not TWF). In D&D TWF is mostly attractive to RP'ers, character concept or "philosophy" builds and people who just love Drizzt. or all or parts of the above. That is to say it's FAR from the most dominant playstyle as it is in DDO.

So basically people that think they need to gimp themselves intentionally in order to have a well roleplayed character. At which point the correct response is to make TWF not full of fail (which they did upon introducing it into DDO) and not to revert that change later.

Also I would submit that if DDO instituted several movement rules that they've ignored, such as fatigue/sprinting, not being able to cast spells reliably while jumping, and several others lots of very vocal veteran players would hate hate hate it due to slowing down the game and virtually eliminating zerging.... The game would be far more D&D like but people here by in large don't really want that, at least the most vocal players here don't. They seem to want D&D flavored Half Life 2 without the slower movement and momentary sprint key... Or maybe that's Quake 4 haven't played quake since 3 so who knows.

Um, there's one movement speed. So what are you talking about? But if you do want to try and claim that one speed is 'run', you can still do it for well over a minute non stop by RAW. Since no one is going to dumpstat con that has a clue, the minimum value to assume there is 22 (14 + 2 tome + 6 item). You can run for that many rounds non stop... which means you run for 2:06, walk for 0:06, run for 2:06... aside from annoying people, what does this accomplish?

If your con is lower (say, a low level character) you take 6 second breaks more often, that's all.

And you can remove jump casting when everyone is flying around instead, ya know like they actually would in D&D. That way, instead of jumping to not be slowed by spellcasting, they're just flat out out of range of most stuff and can kill it with impunity.

And don't pretend NWN doesn't have a strong powergamer focus. Even with the gimped out encounters.

Necron7

06-27-2010, 12:46 PM

If you take away anything from all this (and every other adjustment that has occurred over the years) it's that no build is going to stand head and shoulders above the rest (at least not for long). They will change THF twitch, and if you don't believe I got a bridge I can sell you.

With an attitude that "-5% = useless" of course you're gonna feel that you have to spend money to fix every single change turbine comes up with. The rest of us will save our money and continue succesfully completing quests with our useless builds just as easily as we did before.

If you feel the need to always have the FotM at your fingertips, again, that's not turbine's problem.

Could you explain how your only getting a -5% for the tempest Ranger?

This is not about fixing lag or balancing things. This has proven to be about money. Turbine will keep nerfing and changing things until people realize this, and stop playing.

It's all fun and games till it's your toons turn to be NERFed. :D

krud

06-27-2010, 12:56 PM

Could you explain how your only getting a -5% for the tempest Ranger?

This is not about fixing lag or balancing things. This has proven to be about money.Turbine will keep nerfing and changing things untill people realize this, and stop playing.

It's all fun and games till it's your toons turn to be NERFed. :D
All my twf toons will be nerfed in this update. I'm not gonna run and TR them all into THF barbs just to maintain that top 5-10% over everyone else. The concepts I stuck with from the start will work the same as they always did. I will still play them as i have through all other nerfs, with only minor adjustments here and there. They will still kill mobs quite well.

If your character concept only revolves around chasing the maximum possible dps numbers in the game, then your character will always be in a state of flux. Get used to it.

Necron7

06-27-2010, 01:15 PM

All my twf toons will be nerfed in this update. I'm not gonna run and TR them all into THF barbs just to maintain that top 5-10% over everyone else. The concepts I stuck with from the start will work the same as they always did. I will still play them as i have through all other nerfs, with only minor adjustments here and there. They will still kill mobs quite well.

If your character concept only revolves around chasing the maximum possible dps numbers in the game, then your character will always be in a state of flux. Get used to it.

Let me get this straight. Every time Turbine decides to change the rules or how you put it "state of flux" and it makes my toon less effective that it's my fault for making my toon the best it could be with the rules that were in place at the time? I think you need to give that statement a little more thought.

krud

06-27-2010, 01:43 PM

Let me get this straight. Every time Turbine decides to change the rules or how you put it "state of flux" and it makes my toon less effective that it's my fault for making my toon the best it could be with the rules that were in place at the time? I think you need to give that statement a little more thought.
When the "best it can be" only means some maximum value then yes. If you make a ranger, you can always make him the best possible ranger it can be. If you make a max dps <insert whatever class/race happens to fit the bill atm here> then that will always change. It has been that way since day 1.

Necron7

06-27-2010, 01:55 PM

When the "best it can be" only means a number then yes. If you make a ranger, you can still make the best possible ranger it can be. If you make a max dps <insert whatever happens to fit the bill atm here> then that will always change. It has been that way since day 1.

I'm sorry I dont understand incoherent rambling. Perhaps you could rephrase this so that we may all understand what you are trying to say.

krud

06-27-2010, 02:10 PM

I'm sorry I dont understand incoherent rambling. Perhaps you could rephrase this so that we may all understand what you are trying to say.
Some people build toward build toward the character, others build by the numbers . The latter are always the most upset at any changes to the game.

For instance the first type will build a ranger, because they want to play a ranger. They may max the numbers within the framework of the ranger, but being a ranger is the priority. Sometimes they end up at the top of the dps ladder, some mods they don't, but they will always be built to be the best among rangers. Those people will still build rangers, and adapt to whatever changes.

The second type does not care what class/race they build, as long as the target value is the best (e.g. best possible dps). When that place on the dps ladder changes with the updates, and they are no longer on top, they get upset because having the best number is priority, regardless of class/race. Since top dps numbers have always been changing throughout ddo's existence, someone who builds for that is gonna have to get used to changing his character from time to time in order to be the best dps build .

Necron7

06-27-2010, 02:13 PM

Some people build toward build toward the character, others build by the numbers . The latter are always the most upset at any changes to the game.

For instance the first type will build a ranger, because they want to play a ranger. They may max the numbers within the framework of the ranger, but being a ranger is the priority. Sometimes they end up at the top of the dps ladder, some mods they don't, but they will always be built to be the best among rangers.

The second type does not care what class/race they build, as long as the target value is the best (e.g. best possible dps). When that place on the dps ladder changes with the updates, and they are no longer on top, they get upset because having the best number is priority, regardless of class/race.

Since top dps numbers have always been changing throughout ddo's existence, someone who builds for that is gonna have to get used to changing his character from time to time in order to be the best dps build .

Ok I have tried to make sense out the nonsense you just said. I think what your saying is to intentionally gimp our toons by not choosing any good feats or good paths, so when the rules that are in a constant state of flux change and NERF the good feats and paths then it wont effect our toons.

Is this correct?

krud

06-27-2010, 02:26 PM

Ok I have tried to make sense out the nonsense you just said. I think what your saying is to intentionally gimp our toons by not choosing any good feats or good paths, so when the rules that are in a constant state of flux change and NERF the good feats and paths then it wont effect our toons.

Is this correct?
I'm saying if you built a **** good TWF before the update, you'll still have a **** good TWF after the update. It may have changed places on the dps ladder, but he'll still be a **** good TWF. No need to reroll/respec/spend money

If you built to always be the top dps, then that probably will change. Always has, always will. You're gonna have to change with it if you want that.

Necron7

06-27-2010, 02:46 PM

I'm saying if you built a **** good TWF before the update, you'll still have a **** good TWF after the update. It may have changed places on the dps ladder, but he'll still be a **** good TWF. No need to reroll/respec/spend money

If you built to always be the top dps, then that probably will change. Always has, always will. You're gonna have to change with it if you want that.

Oh I'm sorry I was looking at it all wrong. It's a "****" good thing to go down on the DPS ladder, the -20% DPS is a "****" good thing, and not being invited to raids now is a "****" good thing. Thank you for correcting me on this I feel so much better, and yes I will get used to getting screwed like this in the future.

Again thank you. :D

krud

06-27-2010, 02:49 PM

Oh I'm sorry I was looking at it all wrong. It's a "****" good thing to go down on the DPS ladder, the -20% DPS is a "****" good thing, and not being invited to raids now is "****" good thing. Thank you for correcting me on this I feel so much better, and yes I will get used to getting screwed like this in the future.

Again thank you. :D
Sure np. enjoy your "useless" character ;)

Necron7

06-27-2010, 02:52 PM

Sure np. enjoy your "useless" character ;)

LMAO

Good one. :)

smatt

06-27-2010, 03:07 PM

You all really need to get some no more tears shampoo.... Fricken crybabies :D I'm glad you wern't my kids... I can only imagine how your parents dealt with you :eek::D

Necron7

06-27-2010, 03:14 PM

You all really need to get some no more tears shampoo.... Fricken crybabies :D I'm glad you wern't my kids... I can only imagine how your parents dealt with you :eek::D

This is very constructive comment. Did you come up with this all on your own?

Meetch1972

06-27-2010, 10:29 PM

This is very constructive comment. Did you come up with this all on your own?

I think he telepathically acquired it from the thoughts of all those bothering to keep on reading this thread... :D

Xaearth

06-27-2010, 10:31 PM

I've been away on vacation and came back to see this...

Can someone sum it up for me? All I get out of it is "Don't die." :rolleyes:

Meetch1972

06-27-2010, 10:54 PM

I've been away on vacation and came back to see this...

Can someone sum it up for me? All I get out of it is "Don't die." :rolleyes:

I'll have a go...

Eladrin says: Hey guys we're making a change to hopefully reduce DPS by making 1 physics check for both hands instead of 1 for each hand to see which mobs are in reach when TWFing. At the same time, we're going to reduce the rate of proccing the off-hand attack, based on the given table. A couple of effects (like zeal) are adjusted to mean a chance to 10% chance to proc a second swing in a single attack on the primary hand. Feedback requested.

There's some constructive attempts at, even if useless, feedback based on degrees of speculation about the DPS lag issues.

Min-maxer says OMGFyernerfingTWF I HATE IT WHEN YOU DO THAT TURBINE now we need to spend more money!!!

Others say "yeah it's about balance. Get over it."

At some point early in this the table is changed to reduce the nerfage to TWF for now (by increasing proc chances), but not eliminate the reduction entirely.

Min-maxers scream it's not fair, I don't care what you say!!! Ragequit threats ensue.

Others say "yeah it's about balance. Update 5 isn't just about this - and if it does prove to be that bad it will probably be reversed or adjusted. Get over it."

Some of the min-maxers actually put forward some rational points about concerns with respect to the greensteel items they've constructed to make the most out of TWF and requesting the ability to deconstruct their hard-ground gear. Others suggest a free respec to be available. Some reasonable debate, others foaming at the mouth. A lot of noise shows Turbine that this is a sore point for a good proportion of the forum readers/contributors, and they had best tread lightly if they don't want to lose these people.

Lots of people complain because all they see is the TWF issue. Others point out that Update 5 isn't just about nerfing TWF damage.

Dust settles... U5 is will be getting applied to the production systems starting in just over 7 hours.

What did I miss? Lots probably, but that's how I remember it! Personally, I'm looking forward to my TWF nerfed Rogue being able to make trap/grenade type devices from parts salvaged out of traps disabled during quests...

Oak3996

06-28-2010, 12:55 AM

So, translating the actual attacks to the new system, you have now

Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3) 110% 110%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4) dont really know
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 110%
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 110%
20 [Other] 100% 100%

And you will have in the future with your proposed changes

Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3) 100% 85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4) 100% 75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 55%
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 55%
20 [Other] 100% 55%

So you are effectively nerfing all the twf, and paladins and fighters get the biggest hits... (well, and tempest 1 too)
You really nerf paladins even more cause for paladins smites and sacrifices allways went twice, now they will got half the time...[/QUOTE]

If this is the clean, easy way to look at which summarized what ddo is trying to do tomorrow then there is only 1 word i can think of is ********. The idea of nerfing TWF which basically changes the concept of a class technics to get rid of the server technical issue which is lag is.....OMG where did they find these people ???/

nanobot1994

06-28-2010, 01:02 AM

Thanks You Meetch, best post Ive read in the whole thread....

Let me say this again, Eladrin has stated this "Nerf" isn't about LAG its about BALANCE. Yes, its a nerf.... of about 20% DPS its not that bad, do you honestly think that if all MoBs had 20% extra health you couldn't kill them in a reasonable time-frame, resource expenditure?

Our character strength vs MoB strength has a large gap thats certainly more than 20%. We can deal with 20% less DPS.

lethargos

06-28-2010, 01:14 AM

shouldnt those 55s be 80s with gtwf

TiranBlade

06-28-2010, 02:05 AM

shouldnt those 55s be 80s with gtwf

That is correct.

The new system functions like this.

Base TWF Proc = 20%
TWF Feat = +20%
ITWF Feat = +20%
GTWF Feat = +20%
Tempest I = +10%
Tempest II = +10%

So it comes out to this.
TWF = 40% to Proc
ITWF = 60% to Proc
Temp I = 70% to Proc
GTWF = 80% to Proc
Temp I w/ GTWF = 90% to Proc
Temp II = 100% to Proc

shablala

06-28-2010, 02:35 AM

Let me get this straight. Every time Turbine decides to change the rules or how you put it "state of flux" and it makes my toon less effective that it's my fault for making my toon the best it could be with the rules that were in place at the time? I think you need to give that statement a little more thought.

Can you please clarify to everyone what you mean and to what extent will your toon be "less" effective??

If your toon is currently doing Norm-Elite content, you will still be able to do it just the same.

If your toon is currently geared for Epic, guess what? you will still be able to run Epic and do just fine and not a sane person will decline your toon because you're a twf nerfed, just like a nerfed THF who is now crying that they cant do glancing blows while moving/twitching, wont get declined either.

shablala

06-28-2010, 02:36 AM

I'm sorry I dont understand incoherent rambling. Perhaps you could rephrase this so that we may all understand what you are trying to say.

I thought it made perfect sense.

shablala

06-28-2010, 02:41 AM

Oh I'm sorry I was looking at it all wrong. It's a "****" good thing to go down on the DPS ladder, the -20% DPS is a "****" good thing, and not being invited to raids now is a "****" good thing. Thank you for correcting me on this I feel so much better, and yes I will get used to getting screwed like this in the future.

Again thank you. :D

I really dont know or dont care what build you have currently. But I think you are either "lying" about getting declined to raids, or the people you are trying to join are morons. So which is it?

shablala

06-28-2010, 02:58 AM

And you will have in the future with your proposed changes

Build Main-hand Off-hand
20 Ranger (Tempest 3) 100% 85%
20 Monk (Wind Stance 4) 100% 75%
20 Fighter (Alacrity) 110% 55%
20 Paladin (Zeal) 110% 55%
20 [Other] 100% 55%

So you are effectively nerfing all the twf, and paladins and fighters get the biggest hits... (well, and tempest 1 too)
You really nerf paladins even more cause for paladins smites and sacrifices allways went twice, now they will got half the time...

If this is the clean, easy way to look at which summarized what ddo is trying to do tomorrow then there is only 1 word i can think of is ********. The idea of nerfing TWF which basically changes the concept of a class technics to get rid of the server technical issue which is lag is.....OMG where did they find these people ???/

No idea where you got those numbers. I am looking at the Devs post, quoting:

Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%

shablala

06-28-2010, 03:26 AM

Now you too can spend 2800 turbine points or $50+ to respec your toon to get rid of those 6 useless Ranger levels. LOL

I'M still LMFAO!!

6 useless rangers give you:

- 9 feats in total (the most feats out of any class) 3 + TWF, ITWF, Bow Strength, Rapid shot, Manyshot, diehard
- 10% extra to offhand attack w/tempest I
- 2 favored enemies
- +2 dex (enhancements)
- +2 str +2dam (ram's might)
- no UMD for many useful wands
- 12-24 extra skill points.
- among other things

Yea you're right. For people that like to look at their dps at the end of a long formula on a piece of paper, or on some forum, and now see that they will do 336.64dps instead of 373.75dps on some "pretend" ideal encounter, it will be a useless splash.

For the remaining 90% of the playerbase, it still is the best 6lvl splash. So there is a slight exaggeration in your claim, just like the one about getting 2800TP for $50. But what's new? every complaint about the nerf has been grossly exaggerated.

Honestly you should be LMFAO more at all those screaming NERF!

shablala

06-28-2010, 03:38 AM

I nominate this thread to be in the "Hall of Fail" section of the forums for the disgrace that Turbine has created on this game for an update that is so negatively received by its players!

/signed

Not trying to shock you or anything, but I would estimate less than 5% of the playerbase participate on the forum.

shablala

06-28-2010, 03:53 AM

Well with Ranger Tempest losing their 10% attack speed they take the biggest hit losing 10% on top of the the 5-10% the rest suffer, so they are useless. With pally's Zeal and the fighters Capstone taking hits that leaves THF Barbs the least effected by this NERF. I'm not even going to mention Rogue's and Monks; may you RIP. The choice is obvious. Turbine should rename the game to DDSO (dungeons and dragons sort of) the THF-Barbarian and Casters Saga.

It is VERY clear my friend that you either do not know much about the update or that you do not know much about the game.

1. Monks are actually going to be very good dps, but now will actually use other stances instead of the cookie cutter windstance.
2. Ranger are easily top 2 straight out twf dps. 100% for both hands + 5% double strike (unmatched by any other class)
3. Rogues assassin and acrobat are getting damage boosts.
4. taking 6ranger lvls is still not a bad choice since it will give you an extra 10% to offhand proc among other things.
5. Sword and shield will do more dps because of doublestrike and dwarvenaxe/bastard sword boosts.
6. AC is getting a boost
7. skills/spells DCs getting boosts.
8.And believe it or not Barbarians are actually getting the worst of the nerf. A barbarian's good portion of dps comes from glancing blows, and that is getting a hefty nerf.

yea lets all still scream NERF!

Necron7

06-28-2010, 08:23 AM

Can you please clarify to everyone what you mean and to what extent will your toon be "less" effective??

If your toon is currently doing Norm-Elite content, you will still be able to do it just the same.

If your toon is currently geared for Epic, guess what? you will still be able to run Epic and do just fine and not a sane person will decline your toon because you're a twf nerfed, just like a nerfed THF who is now crying that they cant do glancing blows while moving/twitching, wont get declined either.

A -10%-20% DPS cut (depending on your build) makes TWF toons less effective.

Every comment you made after this one just became pointless.

IronClan

06-28-2010, 08:42 AM

A -10%-20% DPS cut (depending on your build) makes TWF toons less effective.

Every comment you made after this one just became pointless.

The best numbers in this thread which have been repeated by many and remain unchallenged (no one debunked them or showed math errors) put the range at 8-14%. -8% for most TWF classes, a small GAIN for some monks (I think due to double strike plus other stances) and -14% for full Tempest III's

It should be noted that Tempest III's loss of their PrE based "extra attack" (which is why they appear to get nerfed the hardest) doesn't actually GO OFF if you move or otherwise break the attack chain... So the high end of the range is actually somewhat theoretical.

So...... Every comment/post you made based on 10-20% just became pointless

Oh and BTW they appearently are lowering mob hit points as well, so the actual number is even lower than 8-14% in practice.

LegoDudeRyan

06-28-2010, 10:46 AM

shablala

06-28-2010, 11:06 AM

A -10%-20% DPS cut (depending on your build) makes TWF toons less effective.

Every comment you made after this one just became pointless.

Honestly, what's pointless is the attempt to use logic with you.

shablala

06-28-2010, 11:12 AM

My main is a monk lvl 17 so this seems completely unfair to monks who are use to having like 3 attacks in a second or so, reducing it will make it much harder attacking. Thinks of this, shouldn't all weapons be reduced to make it even because if i monk now hit the same amount of attacks as a person swinging a great axe there is a clear advantage for the great axe person. As for the double strike i dont understand it can someone explain it better please.

Lego, do not bother making sense of the crybabies. Get on your monk, look at the new prestiges introduced, test the enhancement to AC, play around with Stunning Blow, Trip and sunder along with other monk attacks and see how much easier they land. Adjust by using some of the other stances instead of just being perma windstanced. Monks have gotten better, not worse.

Davikar

06-28-2010, 11:44 AM

Lego, do not bother making sense of the crybabies. Get on your monk, look at the new prestiges introduced, test the enhancement to AC, play around with Stunning Blow, Trip and sunder along with other monk attacks and see how much easier they land. Adjust by using some of the other stances instead of just being perma windstanced. Monks have gotten better, not worse.

Enhancement to AC? There are no enhancements to AC in this update. :P
Attacks land easier? Why do you keep making things up?
All monks get this update is a big DPS nerf and a prestige enhancement that's we won't be able to take anyways, since we don't have enough AP left to spend on them and their pre-reqs.
All these nerfs just because of server lag? Why don't they fix the servers instead of ruining our game?

IronClan

06-28-2010, 12:21 PM

shablala

06-28-2010, 12:53 PM

Enhancement to AC? There are no enhancements to AC in this update. :P
Attacks land easier? Why do you keep making things up?
All monks get this update is a big DPS nerf and a prestige enhancement that's we won't be able to take anyways, since we don't have enough AP left to spend on them and their pre-reqs.
All these nerfs just because of server lag? Why don't they fix the servers instead of ruining our game?

Ok I am not a developer, so what actually gets rolled today, neither you nor I have any control over. Unless you have some inside info, you have no basis for your claim. I, on the other hand, am basing my claims off of what I read and quoting, not making it up.

Combat Expertise
Combat Expertise no longer breaks on spellcast. Instead, spell point costs are doubled while in the stance. (To maintain the "don't cast while this is on" flavor.) Will also not break due to Monk Finishers.

I dont know about you but that's definitely an enhancement to AC.

Weighted Handwraps
Weighted handwraps now grant their DC bonus to Stunning Blow and Stunning Fist

umm yea, I guess that would qualify as attacks landing easier.

Void: Light: Void Finisher
Activate this finisher to clear away all distractions from your allies, granting a +5 Insight

hmm again, attack landing easier maybe?

doublestrike
It would have the advantage over speed boosts of sometimes proccing on special attacks, and opens up a new itemization and enhancement pathway.

no comment. Let's see how it actually plays out.

Monk Air stances now grant a +2.5%/+5.0%/+7.5%/+10% insight bonus to double strike chance instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)

Just to show how those screaming NERF are grossly exaggerating.

Things like the Shield Bonus and to-hit penalty reductions that Tempest grants when wielding two weapons, or the enhancement bonuses to speed from Wind Stance remain unchanged.

same as above

I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting.

WOW, so it's NOT just because of the FREAKIN lag! so get off the lag bandwagon.

Epic Trash’s saves reduced across the board by 10 to enable you to reliably use DC based special attacks and spells to deal with them, if you’re targeting their weak saves. Note: A more cautious tiered rollout (lowering them by 5 now, then by 10 later) is being considered.

Ok I will let you tackle this one, it's easy. Nerf or Boost?

Epic Trash has a variable penalty to attack rolls that nearly doubles the “potentially viable AC” band. Sort of like rolling a d20 to hit, and then subtracting another d20 from their attack roll.

Another AC enhancement maybe?

Epic monster strength: Low AC characters will still be getting hit with full fledged hits. Higher AC characters will still get grazing hits, but those are much more manageable and don’t bring on-hit effects along with them.

And another regarding AC?

Now is there a chance that some of this wont go live today? sure. But unlike you, at least I have a basis for my claims.

tday123

06-28-2010, 01:00 PM

shablala

06-28-2010, 01:13 PM

My main is a lvl 20 monk, that Im seriously considering shelving after this update. Nerfing the monk dps is total garbage. Its hard enough for us to compete with other classes because we lack greensteel wraps. Im not sure why the developers dislike monks so much but I am convinced that they do.

LOL why do people insist on NOT reading?

You know what? you're right. Go ahead and shelf your pure monk.
Also if you have any other TWF toon, go ahead and shelf it too, since the TWF nerf is across the board.
Might as well shelf any THF toon while you're at it, since you cant do glancing blows anymore while moving/twitching.
I think the best option is to just quit altogether. Just leave DDO to the other 90% of the people who dont have any problem with the changes.

IronClan

06-28-2010, 01:18 PM

Budnipper

06-28-2010, 03:20 PM

Strakeln

06-28-2010, 04:19 PM

Thanks for completely destroying MASTERS TOUCH!

I was looking forward to this supposed "fix" as I thought it would get rid of the lag when the spell ended or was recast. But all you did was completely break the spell. How could you morons not notice how broken it was?

1) It no longer displays an icon with a timer in the upper right corner of the screen. So what I wait till I notice a -4 to hit with my weapon before recasting?

2) It no does NOT do what you said it would do in the patch notes. Ya sure it makes me proficient with Great Axes. The one I am holding, but if I change to a different great axe I am no longer proficient. This is completely breaks my characters efficiency. Oh wait guys I need to rebuff so I can attack the fire elemental with my frost axe. Oh wait guys now I need to rebuff so I can use my other axe. What a joke and complete waste of mana.

Completely moronic devs, you really take the cake on this one.
Jesus Christ, Turbine. FIX THINGS before changing them. Or at the very least, fix them when you change them. If you're going to step into the code for some tinkering, why not fix the known issues too?

Like the barbarian capstone: you remove the melee alacrity but don't bother to fix the glancing blows.

Seriously, you need to empower your devs to do what is right, not whip them until they only do what they are told. Empowered developers can recognize a problem like this and fix it while doing related work.

Dim_Mak

06-28-2010, 05:34 PM

what to say..surprise ...surprise...

AbsynthMinded

06-28-2010, 07:43 PM

Hahahah.. I told ya'll the undocumented and unintended issues would come to dwarf the firestorm from the intended changes.. They never EVER get it right in practice as it appears on paper.. Now we will be sucking wind over the little things for days and weeks, loosing all interest in the big things we all had focused on..

Turbine.. you never cease to underwhelm my expectations..

AussieEngineer

06-28-2010, 08:13 PM

/golf clap

way to go Turbine. love what I'm seeing here.. keep up the good work...

Oh that was sarcasm. you guys suck (that one wasn't sarcasm)

(seems you go to make stuff really obvious for em).

Baahb3

06-28-2010, 08:25 PM

Thanks for completely destroying MASTERS TOUCH!

I was looking forward to this supposed "fix" as I thought it would get rid of the lag when the spell ended or was recast. But all you did was completely break the spell. How could you morons not notice how broken it was?

1) It no longer displays an icon with a timer in the upper right corner of the screen. So what I wait till I notice a -4 to hit with my weapon before recasting?

2) It no does NOT do what you said it would do in the patch notes. Ya sure it makes me proficient with Great Axes. The one I am holding, but if I change to a different great axe I am no longer proficient. This is completely breaks my characters efficiency. Oh wait guys I need to rebuff so I can attack the fire elemental with my frost axe. Oh wait guys now I need to rebuff so I can use my other axe. What a joke and complete waste of mana.

Completely moronic devs, you really take the cake on this one.

Are you trying to get banned? They closed your other thread when you posted this same thing. You can be angry with them but insulting Turbine staff will only result in bad things for you.

Besides the spell is doing exactly what it says it is doing. It is granting proficancy with the weapon that you have in your hands at the time of the casting.

Take a breath, and an extra 30 secs at the start of a quest and swap around your weapons casting the spell for each one. Bingo! You are proficient with all your weapons for the quest.

The changes to masters touch are so miniscule in this whole update and you keep hounding on it like it is the end of the world.

OpNazzz

06-28-2010, 08:40 PM

I bet you could'nt get a greased BB up a dev's rear right now ... ROFLMOA

DRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM MM ROLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL.

For Turbines "SONY moment"

Antheal

06-28-2010, 09:17 PM

TigrisMorte

06-28-2010, 10:02 PM

Guys, listen up. When you rant, people stop listening.
When you become insulting, they become offended.
When you misinform, whether misunderstanding or to emphasize your displeasure, you undermine your argument.

You have every right to think what you wish of the nerfs and buffs and out right changes.
But, these people are working for a living. Doing what they are told and on the rare occasion they are given the decision by their employers, doing what they think best for the product they are working on.
They do not hate you, nor your imaginary character on their employer's server.
Relax. Take a step back, see what happens and if you don't like it, say so in polite terms that might actually get read rather than dismissed or worse.

Try it, perhaps it is not as bad as you fear.
and if it is, courtesy is never out of style.
Manners shall always gain respect from mature minds.

Peace, Love, and Respect, Y'all
Peace, Love, and Respect.

Meetch1972

06-28-2010, 10:25 PM

... 9 hours later, and so far, 1 rant about a bug, which isn't a bug, rather a misunderstanding, and 1 person complaining about their max DPS being nerfed when they haven't quantified it with any actual experience or trying other peoples' suggestions. DooooooommmMMMMMMMmmmmm I say! Not.

While I haven't used masters touch yet, if it says "for the weapon in your hand" then that's what you're stuck with. I do like the idea of being able to cast multiple times to become proficient with all the weapons you're likely to use before going into that battle. I had figured it might be a little bit more powerful and allow for that and all similar weapons with 1 cast (all great axes for example) but this is a balance thing. :-p

What's the caster doing swinging an axe? It's a mana conservation tactic (and a darn fine one at that!), but you gotta invest a bit to save a bit...

Nothing to see here - yet - move along. Just remember, before thinking you've come up with a new bug to check the known issues at http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=150534 ...

Seriously, I don't wanna see people hitting the panic button when they haven't taken the time to understand what is supposed to happen by a simple double-check. There's a few too many "shame on you Turbine for breaking stuff like he said" sheep for my liking too. Just 'cos someone says it, doesn't mean it's true!

Come on everybody, take a deep breath ... what I am a little surprised at is that there hasn't been any real feedback yet on combat. Sluggish feel aside for those who used to swing 200+ times per minute, is it good, bad or meh? That's what this thread is about.

scope999

06-28-2010, 10:45 PM

kingfisher

06-29-2010, 12:59 AM

really, they should just eleminate the Ranger class alltogether and call it an "Archer"

Hunters dude, they are now called Hunters k? jesus did you not get the 'how to make your mmo into a wowclone cashcow' memo?

Fenrisulven6

06-29-2010, 01:11 AM

Stupid Question:

Per Update5, my 6rogue/2ranger gets 100% primary and 40% offhand...

er...what was it before? It feels like i'm missing alot more often, but that may be my imagination?

Meetch1972

06-29-2010, 01:45 AM

Stupid Question:

Per Update5, my 6rogue/2ranger gets 100% primary and 40% offhand...

er...what was it before? It feels like i'm missing alot more often, but that may be my imagination?

You'll be swinging a lot less now, not necessarily missing ... it would have been 100%/100% with what I think (no empirical evidence at hand) was a slightly lesser chance of hitting each time you took a swing.

Move through the TWF feats to get closer to 100/100 and potentially beyond...

Necron7

06-29-2010, 08:20 AM

Stupid Question:

Per Update5, my 6rogue/2ranger gets 100% primary and 40% offhand...

er...what was it before? It feels like i'm missing alot more often, but that may be my imagination?

Yes it was 100% prim and 100% offhand. It is now 100% prim and 40% just to proc offhand. So do the math and figure your offhand has a 60% chance not to proc, and Oh yes you will be swinging a lot less which means a lot less DPS.

Just remember not think of it as NERF but as a way to balance your overpowered TWF Rogue.

ssarasin

06-29-2010, 10:09 AM

Just had a chance to play a bit since update 5 went live with my monk. To try out the changes I took a quick run through the Vale. I was a bit surprised since I was expecting to basically be a punching bag and not land many hits. While it 'feels' a little like I am whiffing more, I seem to be doing as much if not more damage than before the update.

The Trolls especially seem to be getting bigger numbers above their heads with my flame burst weighted (er, stunning...) handwraps. But all in all, I feel pretty good about the damage I'm doing. Granted, this is on a Windstance IV, lvl 20 monk, so I'll hold back final verdict until after I can create and run a new monk from scratch.

All-in-all, so far I'm feeling fairly positive about the DPS changes for the monk...

I still have some reservations about the whole Guild Renown system however... It seems every LFM was "Guild Only!", so I'm concerned that PUGs are going to be hard to find for non-guild players...

bacuus

06-29-2010, 11:15 AM

What's that in reference to?

I assume he is refereencing how SOE jacked up SWG and lost most of their user base in an attempt to appeal to a more casual gameplay group of players. It was an epic fail. However, even with the changes that Turbine has made in U5, it is by NO means even remotely close to SOE's fail. The CU (Combat Update) and NGE (New Gaming Experience) will be used in textbooks for the discernible future on how not to run a game.

fatherpirate

06-29-2010, 12:01 PM

I would tend to think it would be far better to improve 1 handed attacks than nerf 2 handed attacks.

perhaps a residual chance (based on lvl, int, dex) of getting in an extra brawler style attack ?
such as a kick, elbow strike, knee strike ect..

just a thought

Fenrisulven6

06-29-2010, 12:14 PM

Well, two days of playing, and its not so bad.

I HATE having my fav toon nerfed, but at least hard and elite are more of a challenge.

I used to get away with some really stupid stuff in elite tear and gwylans. Now I have to play smarter.

biatch moan whine. refer to sig. sigh.

Spartacus73

06-29-2010, 01:09 PM

My AA seems messed up. I think Bow Strength feat is broken, because I'm averaging about 6-8 points LESS per hit (my strength bonus) then I did before U5. In addition, I'm missing a LOT more often? I would think that those 2 things should be the same in U5 since there was no mention of a change to those in the release notes.

TWDiggs1980

06-29-2010, 02:47 PM

I have a straight kensie twf rapier build and have noticed little to no change in her dps if anything she crits more now after update 5.

Theragorn

06-29-2010, 04:21 PM

FYI Thanks for making said lag even worse. Before I had no issues with lag. I had some in high end content but not very bad. Now I get lag in the marketplace where I never had any before. Seems to me you just make things worse when you try and fix something. Just my two cents.

tasebro

06-29-2010, 04:30 PM

Yes it was 100% prim and 100% offhand. It is now 100% prim and 40% just to proc offhand. So do the math and figure your offhand has a 60% chance not to proc, and Oh yes you will be swinging a lot less which means a lot less DPS.

Just remember not think of it as NERF but as a way to balance your overpowered TWF Rogue.

Also, there is the absolute LOSS of the same number of given opportunities to roll for a natural 20, or "crit", and that is an especially significant nerf for TWFers, muliticlass in particular, since that takes the dice OUT of the players hands, for no justifiable reason whatsoever; that dice roll is the fundamental "interface" to achieve "heroic" deeds regardless of the short odds, therefore taking those dice rolls away from players is an improper move on Tubs part, since it removes player capacity to achieve said "heroic" deeds.

Combined with the consideration that the mobs are still moving/hitting at prenerfdate5 speed (so mobs now have the speed advantage), so that means MORE incoming damage that has to be mitigated per minute of combat--which leads to the increased "opportunity cost" resulting from nerfed DPS--every second wasted swinging from a gimped TWF DPSer is a second lost that COULD have been spent on heals/buffs/utility, and rightly SHOULD have been spent that way, but instead it is wasted slogging it out in melee trading hits, thus reducing build utility of otherwise "utility builds" even more.

Works for pureclass rogues too, but take my similarly "light" exploiter multiclass thief (1rog/2ranger/1monk) build for example--I played this toon from the ground up, learning as I went, so i am qualified to say that the key to combat playing a pre-nerfdate5 1rog/2ranger/1monk is "applying" your build strengths (now nerfed) and "denying" (mitigate, using good tactics) your build weaknesses in general, in particular by using:
1. THF to augment
2. TWF (used more as level increases), and
3. ranged (manyshot), used mostly L11+, and
4. sustaining with utility/buffs/UMD.
The key to exploiter builds (and rogues as well) is maintaining self-sustenance by not biting off more than you can manage with 1.-4. above, and using manyshot and TWF to put mobs DOWN FAST, from start to finish, such combat must by nature be 100% commited (there is no surviving "second place"), and when the incoming load approaches/exceeds the capability to mitigate via 1.-4., the build is not vaiable, since by nature, light combat is generally an all-or-nothing commitment, "coming in second" is not an option (cuz yer dead), with that threshold being definite and STEEP.
Without ALL these elements working in unison, the build is broken, and that was the official intent of nerfdate5 pulling the rug out from under us.

In the context of having said that...what I have noticed now that nerfdate5 has gone live:
Nerfing DPS (while leaving mobs at prenerfdate5 attack speeds) means ALL melee fights are taking a longer--mobs that used to take 2-3 hits to put down, now take 4-5+ hits, AND are hitting back 50-100 percent more times per minute of combat, over a longer period of time. That increased load had to be mitigated somehow, meaning a whole lot of previously self-sustaining builds are simply no longer affordable, or relevant post-nerfdate5.
I am not seeing the supposed "Game Balance" here....all I see is viable builds getting nerfed/gimped, with no means to repair the damage done that dont involve spending MORE time/money to "fix" what was not broken in the first place, but sure is now.

The loss of the DPS annoys me, the slow-moving combat annoys me more if that makes sense....Stuff taking longer to die = more healing needed = more pots sold in the DDO store = profit!

You got that right G...but I for one am not throwing good money after bad. If Tubs wants more of my money in the future, they gonna have to give me what I want, not what I DONT want...till Tubs gets their priorities straightened out, I am going to cut my losses, park my melee toons, and run 32 pt vanilla casters....and im gonna do it as CHEAPLY as possible.

Pehtis

06-29-2010, 07:38 PM

Combined with the consideration that the mobs are still moving/hitting at prenerfdate5 speed (so mobs now have the speed advantage), so that means MORE incoming damage that has to be mitigated per minute of combat--

In the context of having said that...what I have noticed now that nerfdate5 has gone live:
Nerfing DPS (while leaving mobs at prenerfdate5 attack speeds) means ALL melee fights are taking a longer--mobs that used to take 2-3 hits to put down, now take 4-5+ hits, AND are hitting back 50-100 percent more times per minute of combat, over a longer period of time.

You got that right G...but I for one am not throwing good money after bad. If Tubs wants more of my money in the future, they gonna have to give me what I want, not what I DONT want...till Tubs gets their priorities straightened out, I am going to cut my losses, park my melee toons, and run 32 pt vanilla casters....and im gonna do it as CHEAPLY as possible.

Bingo! Melee characters now attacking in slow motion post U5 because you have a lot less attacks in that same minute you just wasted, whilst monsters continue attacking at pre U5 speeds doing even more damage to the character during that very same minute ...... and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

Yep, that's it in a nutshell.

Since when is it fun to have your melee character swinging their weapons is like they are totally drunk and lethargic (i.e. slow motion). The whole feeling of combat is like a Level 1 (L1) melee character is taking on a Level 5 monster. The monster attacks quickly and hits you often in that 1 minute. The melee character on the other hand is trying its hardest to fight but being L1 melee it has limitations how quickly it can fight. But hang on, the Melee is actually a Level 5 character but is now been nerfed to be fighting like a level 1 character. That's what it feels like.

There is almost no point playing melee toons any more. Their combat takes A LOT more time to finish now and are a lot less survivable than before (AC/DR remains substandard). They simply just can't hold their own as they use to in a fight without a lot more resource help (re heal/repairs).

No such problem for the casters. Can you imagine if they increased the casting time required for each of their spells by 80/60/40 being +80% extra time with no Focus feat, then 60% with 1 Focus Feat and so on (TWF equivalent nerf), AND also increased the cool down time of the use of their spells (THF glancing blow nerf ... ok an analogy stretch but making a point). They will be dead before they could finish casting any spell let alone be in any position to cast the next one. Thankfully they did no such thing to casters. Instead they are the big winners as they get improvements which is nice.

This is officially now a caster MMO.

The only melee toons that look attractive are (gasp) S&B toons with the role of standing, shield up, with enemy monsters pounding away, while casters charm/blast the pesky monsters and then cast raise dead over their sacrificial pet ... err fellow melee player. That is assuming the augmented summoned pets and hirelings don't do just as good a job and hence all they ever really need. They just need to buy ($$$$$) the multiples from the DDO store which is all well and good as Turbine is running a business.

Alas gone is the fast paced interactive decision making combat thrill when in melee. Once upon a time (might have been just the other day) you were already planning ahead of the next immediate trash confrontation, and the one after that over a 30 second period. Now it takes a whole 30 seconds to kill that first trash monster. There you are screaming at the character to finish its swing quicker (therefore attack stroke) when faced with 4 - 5 Ogre monsters coming at you, but it just can't. Then they are all over you. Better still try melee an archer as they continue getting off more attacks than you are because you are now going through your slow motion attack.

Now finishing any mission by melee toons will take a lot longer (re killing trash mobs takes longer) which soon becomes more of a grind. With players spending more time than before on old content Turbine will probably get more $$$ from VIP's. Also gives Turbine more time to not come up with anything new for a while which is a double win.

Well I'm not going to spend any new money with Turbine with this massive change to their product. Instead like many I will make do with what I have already paid for until I find a replacement.

I'll go check out World Of Warcraft and other popular MMO's and see what they are about, and hopefully find somewhere a thrilling interactive combat engine that functions well with good mission designs.

A couple of days ago the Turbine company had a fast paced thrilling interactive combat experience forming the core of its gaming product that had me enjoying (and paying) their product. Then they released Update 5 and eliminated this very core.

This is now a damaged product. Not totally broken but now forcing customers to look elsewhere if this remains the case.

P

~econner1

06-29-2010, 09:15 PM

Meetch1972

06-29-2010, 09:17 PM

Isn't it sad that people treat "trash mobs" like they don't matter? Perhaps they should, or they wouldn't have been put there in the first place - not just to slow you down/make it grindier, but to increase the risk in line with the difficulty of the dungeon, making players think more about how to handle a situation rather than running into the middle of half a dozen ogres, spinning steel until they all fall over.

To me this means it will be more of a challenge, and I'd rather a challenge than an Epic level quest where the high DPS guys stand together and spin on the spot until there's nothing left and then race to the next bunch of mobs to see who gets there first and the first kill to boot. Play smarter and take your time - I thought it was a game, not a race! I'd suggest y'all learn to use the available skills of yer toons to their maximum potential, and stop watching the clock.

I'll do it without TP bought pots too.

In PnP the L1 party treats every kobold encounter like a boss fight, or dies horribly and spends another 20 minutes rolling up new characters... I don't expect DDO to be quite like that (unless you're in a permadeath guild), but if all you want is to skip to the real boss fight without having to manage resources and play smart, then why are you playing DDO, a game with a very complex interlaced system of stealth, combat and tactics, like you've "earned god mode"?

Actually, are there any Permadeath guild members watching who would care to comment on their attitude toward the "TWF nerf"?

(For those who are new and don't know, a permadeath guild basically consists entirely of toons who ARE DELETED AND STARTED AGAIN if they die in a dungeon of something other than a bug and and are unable to be resurrected by a member of the party - which usually means no resurrection shrines allowed either - an idea I've entertained, but don't have time for).

Enough whining already! Sheesh!

qwert-y

06-29-2010, 10:26 PM

This update is absolute rubbish. I thought this was tested before releasing it to us. Who in thier right mind gave this the hat's off during testing? They have taken one of the main reasons I even played DDO and wrecked it entirely. If I want slow motion WOW type gaming I would be playing WOW. They even got rid of dice roll descriptions so how can they even say this game draws from REAL DnD? I am taking my money elsewhere. This is some bull &*&#. Good job to the Dev's I hope the project manager fires the lot of you for being incompetent.

tasebro

06-29-2010, 11:49 PM

...Play smarter and take your time ....I'd suggest y'all learn to use the available skills of yer toons to their maximum potential, and stop watching the clock.
...
Enough whining already! Sheesh!

Time is money Meetch, and you are mighty liberal with *other* peoples' time/money.
Think about that for a sec, and what it says about you.

You apparently want this to be all about YOU, meetch, but its NOT, never will be, so you might be so kind as to stop and consider that your bellicose attitude is precisely the attitude that causes ppl to find something else to do, so be careful what you wish for, you just might get it--along with the unintended consequences.
No offense man, but frankly speaking if you were running a PnP game as GM, judging from what I see here, I can't say I would go out of my way to sit at your gaming table, or maybe you just enjoy being a shill, baiting ppl for fun?

Hope you like playing WoW, cuz that is where you are headed.

Meetch1972

06-29-2010, 11:58 PM

Why do people threaten to ragequit on the forums and then not follow through? 'cos DDO is an amazing game for what you have to pay, before or after U5. So the system has changed - as far as I'm concerned you have a few choices: adapt (however you choose), complain (which not only irritates but saddens me), or leave (quietly or otherwise is your call, and either way I'll respect it). Turbine never promised you they weren't going to nerf anything, and it looks like those who paid for their access for the 3+ years before it went F2P understand that. I personally know I'm getting a LOT of value out of Turbine for what I've given them, and I don't have to suck up to anyone for TPs (though I wouldn't complain if they DID give me TPs ;)).

All I'm trying to say is that I prefer treat it as a challenge to find the strengths and the best way to play my toons rather than an excuse to whine about the new-found weaknesses in my toon builds. If you don't like the game as it is, don't play it. TWFs can still get to 105%/100% at high levels, but it requires more dedication to the specialisation, which means more weaknesses, which means playing smarter becomes necessary (taking less aggro) and people who refuse to learn let their toons die quicker/more.

I haven't yet learnt how to apply all the skills my toons have at their disposal, but I am learning because my L20 Pally can't chew through bunches of mobs as risk-free with a paralyser and vorpal or dual vorpals as he used to, 'cos now without TWF he gets 60% of the total number of swings that he used to with them. S&B becomes a more attractive option, so I'll explore it. I might also explore using diplomacy to get the aggro off me and back onto the main tank, and switch to THF, or stand still more and let the dwarven axe glancing blows happen (S&B may even do more total damage with a DA equipped now). I don't have the inclination to moan that my TWF style is now 40% less effective, 'cos that won't get me anywhere.

I really would like to hear what permeadeath-ers think about the TWF nerf. They would be the ones who SHOULD care most about nerfing as that would directly affect the tactics they employ in order to succeed on an elite raid rather than wipe their character and reroll. I consider them the most hardcore gamers, not just min-maxers.

Meetch1972

06-30-2010, 12:18 AM

Time is money Meetch, and you are mighty liberal with *other* peoples' time/money.
Think about that for a sec, and what it says about you.

I thought this was a game??? If you think Turbine owes you ANYTHING beyond what you still have and the hours/days/weeks/whatever of entertainment you've had for the time you've put into the game, then I suggest you stop playing as so many people threaten to do. IMO the only legitimate complaints are those to do with bugs, not rebalancing.

You apparently want this to be all about YOU, meetch, but its NOT, never will be, so you might be so kind as to stop and consider that your bellicose attitude is precisely the attitude that causes ppl to find something else to do, so be careful what you wish for, you just might get it--along with the unintended consequences.
No offense man, but frankly speaking if you were running a PnP game as GM, judging from what I see here, I can't say I would go out of my way to sit at your gaming table, or maybe you just enjoy being a shill, baiting ppl for fun?

tasebro, you realise you're making it sound all about you? I thought after your last post you were past that, 'cos I even you rep for it. In any case, if it were PnP and the party was up against Suulo, I wouldn't let him be quite that easily fooled into beating up on the intimitank in turtle mode while there's a whole bunch of squishies behind him he could seriously hurt before taking his time with the last tank standing, and if you expected that, I wouldn't want you at my table.

I would think only those too short-sighted to see the opportunities would feel baited. Anyway...

Hope you like playing WoW, cuz that is where you are headed.

No thanks - I prefer DDO. Prove me wrong if you want, but please go easy on the personal attacks. Who's baiting whom?

I don't get a lot of time to play, but I intend to make the most of it when I can...

How about agreeing to disagree?

Raveolution

06-30-2010, 05:57 AM

pSINNa

06-30-2010, 06:32 AM

Today our guild ran the shroud a few times in a row (we all have serveral shroud ready toons), and then a few other raids and some quests to evaluate in what ways and to what degree things have changed for us in update 5.

Keeping it brief :

All clerics in group on all runs had re-specced as radiant servants already, and found the change to be a very positive one, the general consensus was that clerics alts would be seeing a lot more play in future (rather then the fvs toons we had all been concentrating on for the last few months).

The monks reported being quite happy with the way things had changed. Some of them seemed to beleive they were seeing an increase in dps overall (based on the number of 'crits' they seemed to be seeing, and having no real negative they could detect in normal play and during Harry beatdowns).

The pure tempest rangers all reported a noticeable slowdown in melee alacrity, with some speculation on a possible upgrade to Jorgandals collar as a double strike booster, but overall were happy that they were still dps viable builds, whilst also having a new dps stat to 'count coup' with - double strike watch in combat log provided some entertainment there :).

Several toons of different type that had only the twf and itwf feats noticed the occasional miss in 2nd hand proc, but on the whole were happy with their dps viability (most of the toons in question were 'jack of all trades' types, being 'decent' dps, but not primarily aimed at melee dps only focus.

So called DPS lag was noticeably improved in shroud parts 4 and 5, though to a degree lag of 'an unspecified type :P' seemed to present itself randomly, on the whole, it was better, particularly from the healers standpoint, with the previous 'lag spam heal' method being found to no longer be necessary. (In the first run, i was on a radiant servant 2, and rotated between aura bursts and cure light and medium mass at longer and longer intervals while running the healing aura standing just to the side of the Harry beatdown - finding optimal timing may take a little time, but it's a massive improvement, no doubt about it).

A few pale masters in the group were experimenting with death aura whilst in wraith and lich forms whilst casting and seemed very happy with the 'new tricks', with much debate on possibilities to extract some interesting results in different quest and raid scenarios, on the whole, it seems a positive change there.

The guid renown system seemed to fuel our members to run quests and raids as a group with a 6 x raid run coming to an end before some (with much reluctance) had to tear themselves away to attend to real life again. I anticipate a heightened degree of guild activity in general while we race to elevate our guild favour as quickly as possible.

That's all in the way of feedback after the first real days questing under the changes of update 5, this list has been made in an attempt to provide honest feedback to the OP as experienced by one group in one day of quest/raiding.

Coit out~

Ghallanda : Coitfu, Coithealz, Coitburner, Coittimeh, Coitburner, Coitzinga, Coitrippr, Luciforge Son of Coit : Revelationz

(ps. the clerics, are really, really happy, lol, it's fun to heal again :P)

WindowLicker'77

06-30-2010, 12:45 PM

I have noticed that even in lower areas like ataraxia the orcs and everything else can shoot and hit an arcane ranger at greater distances than the ranger so you killed the reason to build a ranger there now going to knock down the TWF as well I guess there goes me building another ranger!!!!

MarcusCleardawn

06-30-2010, 03:19 PM

My observations:
1. Shroud lag is slightly improved. Quest lag is more frequent and severe, but all of that may be due more to circumstances concerning the update than anything else.

2. TWF DPS is significantly lowered, particularly in the early going before Greater Two Weapon Fighting. Missing out on the special effects of an off hand weapon, like vorpal, banish, paralyze, coupled with the significant DPS hit, makes playing my paladin considerably less enjoyable. As both a Stat and Feat starved class, I find the TWF nerf particularly annoying.

It seems that I don't even begin to pull even with 2handed melee combatants until I get Greater Two Weapon Fighting, and all the additional Feats and Stats I spent are just junk until then. I can't wrap my brain around the justification that a 2handed fighter should have equivalent single target damage (and glancing blows!) for fewer stat points investment, and no feats, as a Two Weapon Fighter.

3. Furthermore, by reducing the number of to-hit rolls, you reduce the number of critical strikes which again reduces the utility of various "on critical" abilities.

4. Overall, quest take significantly longer to complete; combat feels slower, and I consume significantly more healing resources in the same load out as before. I assume that the mobs were given titanic mountains of hitpoints in response to the speed of dps, which you just nerfed a great deal, anyway we could get an adjustment? I can live with slower combat, though I don't like it one whit, but slower combat with the same mountain of hitpoints is getting old very quickly.

5. I haven't experience the "increase in the breadth of significant armor class" that was bandied about. Armor Class still seems mostly irrelevant after the first few levels.

REALb0r3d

06-30-2010, 03:24 PM

Deleted

chubbs99

06-30-2010, 03:29 PM

When I was playing monday with my 20 monk, I noticed very little in dps change. Infact our normal guild group doing the shroud wasn't complaining at all about less off-hand hits, but 3 people (all Pally's) had a mysterious ~20 damage/hit loss.

After the raid myself and a few others TRed our toons. I went Monk again and now that I only have Wind I and TWF I'm getting almost no off hand hits, and my attack speed is non existant. I'm so use to twitching away from a mob with 1% hp since I know my off hand will swing and kill it, that doing it now at level's 1-5 ends up actually leaving the mob alive. Not very fun at all... Wonder how it will be at 6 when I can take ninja spy and start using short swords.

Sarezar

06-30-2010, 07:47 PM

My tempest III has same DPS than before and has MUCH more improved "contact" with the attacks (fake one, but I like it). It was quite hit and miss on whether you hit the monsters due to server-client delay. Awesome job.

Also, we have absolutely no lag, so you have done an incredible job with this. No idea how it affects monks, pallies, fighters, and barbs, but I am extremely happy with the results.

GoRinNoSho

06-30-2010, 08:34 PM

Meetch1972

06-30-2010, 10:03 PM

Strangely enough, my rapier/shield thief's attacks all lack precision now. Assassinate attempts fire usually a second after activate with a high probability of double strike (up to 3 seconds later). The double strike can be hit or miss since the double strike favors barrels over opponents, so while you can get 2 in one shot, make sure there are no barrels. Secondly, I see 3 swing animations before 1 damage notification at times in a slayer or quest area. This is somewhat disconcerting as the intended effect was, in theory, an overall performance boost to improve crispness.

Now that the AI shares the effective object draw distance of ultra-high, I would assume that players with lesser graphics cards will be happy as they are pelted from unknown opponents, especially since arrows fired by creatures beyond draw distance are not rendered.

One of the things I enjoyed was running around Irestone on elite with a group of mostly ranged attackers, throwing the returning weapon at spots around crates until the combat log showed I was hitting mobs. The only heavy melee encountered was from the wandering mobs and dealing with Yaaryar. I haven't done such a thing since U5 was applied, but have others noticed as much of - I guess - a clipping problem? I might run in tonight (Oz time) and compare the extreme range combat.

It didn't exactly seem right that I could apparently shoot an arrow or throw an axe hundreds of metres without them returning fire 'cos they couldn't figure out where I was, but it made such quests a lot more survivable if tedious. :) But if you cannot see them then I would hope that at least you can follow the reciprocal path of the projectile to figure out where the shooter is, otherwise that is indeed a problem!

The reports of melee misses have the feel of tuning mob AC to me. As long as the HPs are adjusted down to match, then I guess that's fair - my L7 rogue didn't seem to have any more difficulty hitting things than before (and when getting SA damage seemed to be doing a lot better), but that was 1-handed. :)

I guess the jury's still out on how much impact U5 has made with regards to both lag and melee effectiveness...

Meetch1972

07-01-2010, 12:38 PM

One of the things I enjoyed was running around Irestone on elite with a group of mostly ranged attackers, throwing the returning weapon at spots around crates until the combat log showed I was hitting mobs. The only heavy melee encountered was from the wandering mobs and dealing with Yaaryar. I haven't done such a thing since U5 was applied, but have others noticed as much of - I guess - a clipping problem? I might run in tonight (Oz time) and compare the extreme range combat.

Ummm yeah, it did seem like their ranged capable mobs were able to see me and shoot/throw from further away, though they weren't capable of shooting that far. The melee mobs were just as brain-dead as ever, running around in circles.

So it looks like if they can shoot that far, and if your graphics settings aren't that high then you may not be able to see where the shots are coming from. I don't mind the mechanics so much as the anonymity of the aggressor - where hardware does matter. This was on the high-res client mind - any feedback for low-res?

Tharlak

07-01-2010, 12:50 PM

shablala

07-01-2010, 12:51 PM

u 5 combat changes sucks . These nerfs are ****. Big ****. Monster builds and any combos with 6 ranger lvls are dead. Paladin dps now sucks a lot with new zeal. My ranger 18 monk 2 attacks in slow motion and my light 2 rapiers proc 50% less than before.. My dps now sucks. Casters are now overpowered. Epic quests are only for casters now.
This is not more challenge or more fun. This is ****

I give you an A on the dramatic and heartbreaking delivery. But still an epic F for the gross exaggeration.

FYI 6ranger is STILL the best 6lvl splash after U5. If you dont agree, then maybe you do need to just play a caster.

shablala

07-01-2010, 12:57 PM

I've been playing for a while and haven't felt the need to post as I have been enjoying the game for the most part. Update 5 has changed this. I understand the need to reduce the load on the server, however there was no need purposefully hamstring existing characters to do it. If you feel you need to continue on your current path you might consider increasing the base percentages so you can approximate pre-update 5 conditions. Since I actually pay for the game I figure I should voice my opinion when you head in a direction I do not agree with and takes away from my enjoyment of the game.

So you are saying that your enjoyment of the game is tied to how much DPS you can do with your toon? So in theory, if the change of U5 was to have doubled your dps instead, you would have thought it was the best thing since sliced bread.
You're right about one thing though, you do have the right to voice your opinion.

And just to repeat something that was said only a few hundred times...the change was "NOT" just to reduce lag, it was for balance.

shablala

07-01-2010, 01:16 PM

Time is money Meetch, and you are mighty liberal with *other* peoples' time/money.
Think about that for a sec, and what it says about you.

You apparently want this to be all about YOU, meetch, but its NOT, never will be, so you might be so kind as to stop and consider that your bellicose attitude is precisely the attitude that causes ppl to find something else to do, so be careful what you wish for, you just might get it--along with the unintended consequences.
No offense man, but frankly speaking if you were running a PnP game as GM, judging from what I see here, I can't say I would go out of my way to sit at your gaming table, or maybe you just enjoy being a shill, baiting ppl for fun?

Hope you like playing WoW, cuz that is where you are headed.

You know I am really glad the likes of you (which by the way IS a small minority) are ****ed off at U5. With all your unfounded statements, BS math, speculated and exaggerated remarks, I would be very happy if Turbine went another step into that direction to hopefully turn you off completely at playing the game. Because honestly all that you're really doing is taking space on the forums.

AbsynthMinded

07-01-2010, 03:01 PM

You know I am really glad the likes of you (which by the way IS a small minority) are ****ed off at U5. With all your unfounded statements, BS math, speculated and exaggerated remarks, I would be very happy if Turbine went another step into that direction to hopefully turn you off completely at playing the game. Because honestly all that you're really doing is taking space on the forums.

And you're the righteous one for believing in Turbine as the victim of unfounded character assassinations? So much that you call down more nerfdom and core code alteration to further alienate a part of the player base?

Hmm.. On the social and forum front I'd say you smell suspiciously troll like.

GoRinNoSho

07-01-2010, 05:44 PM

The reports of melee misses have the feel of tuning mob AC to me. As long as the HPs are adjusted down to match, then I guess that's fair - my L7 rogue didn't seem to have any more difficulty hitting things than before (and when getting SA damage seemed to be doing a lot better), but that was 1-handed. :)

To add a bit more specifics Lv 15 thief, Gianthold slayer storms heart, Hill Giant Sargeant, normally +21 to hit but +4 additional due to backstab bonus since the giant was focused on another party member. The references to strikes refer to actual rising text on the opponent.

The missiles generated out of rendering view does not stop at missiles actually. I just associated the concepts together just now, but when running sands and hunting down Ozann, if I am a reasonable distance from Ozann when he spawns (party member taking him down while I check on General Tanakh), and I approach before he is defeated then he is not rendered. This has happened at least twice that I can recall. At first I thought that was a driver issue since there was an a driver version (for an NVidia card while I had one in) that cause fire elementals and air elementals not to render; however, since I can see the eles and see ozann if I spawn him then that slightly isn't the issue.

azrael4h

07-01-2010, 06:58 PM

Finally got a chance to play my Ranger, and was horribly disappointed. I literally felt like I was in an entirely different game. She went from a fast-paced, fun character to play with, to something similar to the Ranger in Shaiya. In other words, unbearably slow and boring.

THF doesn't seem to have suffered as much in normal play. The THF feats are completely useless; I LR'd my Paladin with some of the last TP I'll have, dropped them, and picked up Improved Crit: Slashing, and saw a net increase of damage output. Also boosted my UMD.

Tarrant, Tolero, this was supposed to fix lag? I have had the worst day ever in DDO for lag. It went from annoying to nearly unplayable this afternoon. Things were fine Sunday when I played. No lag, even though we had two arcanes nuking everything in sight. Today it was me, at a relatively low-server population time, soloing with a Paladin, Ranger, and then Cleric. I doubt I could successfully play my Cleric in a group, for the lag U5 has brought in.

Meetch1972

07-01-2010, 09:18 PM

And you're the righteous one for believing in Turbine as the victim of unfounded character assassinations? So much that you call down more nerfdom and core code alteration to further alienate a part of the player base?

Hmm.. On the social and forum front I'd say you smell suspiciously troll like.

Heyyyyyy guys, chill out, 'e we all have points to make, and some choose to dramatise in order to make them.

Some happen to be more sensitive than others. The post that triggered this one was a little over the top, though I don't believe it violated protocol. The big problem with furthering the nerf to make those already complaining jump is that it will make those who are borderline start to complain. It's a vicious cycle. :D

I think we all agree that the TWF nerf DOES indeed make TWF feel slow (like fighting in molasses I think someone said a long time ago). Unfortunately it's also been deemed necessary - I remember shortly after I joined someone talking in game about something like "more !@#$%^& tempest builds", and the main other balance issue I've heard about is eSOS, which has been tweaked too. The problem is that one changes the numbers while the other changes the feel.

Bottom line is that has been stated by a few others, a TWF build still does truck loads of DPS, even if it does feel wrong. Perhaps the swing rate should be pushed up and the to-hit chance dropped instead? Or the damage output of TWF penalised instead of the swing rate? Too late for either of those options to be considered I think.

If you're used to speed X, you'll definitely notice speed Y which is less than X. I understand that. But if you get used to speed Y then I would hope that the enjoyment returns. I can only suggest playing a non-DPS build for a while to see if that resets what you're used to with your TWF toon, 'cos while I sympathise that it would feel "wrong", I for one don't support returning the imbalance purely on the basis that it would feel right again.

U5 has done things that I like, and things that I don't like. Fortunately for me the things I don't like are all bugs which should ultimately be fixed (Turbine, you really screwed up with the UI bugs amongst other things, and we all know those are the least of your concerns) - I do not consider rebalancing the system to be a bug.

That's my opinion and you're entitled to yours. Just remember to debate within the forum guidelines.

Meetch1972

07-01-2010, 09:28 PM

Tarrant, Tolero, this was supposed to fix lag? I have had the worst day ever in DDO for lag. It went from annoying to nearly unplayable this afternoon. Things were fine Sunday when I played. No lag, even though we had two arcanes nuking everything in sight. Today it was me, at a relatively low-server population time, soloing with a Paladin, Ranger, and then Cleric. I doubt I could successfully play my Cleric in a group, for the lag U5 has brought in.

Reports are that the lag issue they were intending to fix were indeed largely fixed (the reduction in need to spam heals in Shroud being the benchmark). It looks like a new lag beast has emerged thanks to something else that was changed in U5. It's like playing "whack-a-lagbeast". I think they need a +10 holy maul of greater lag bane (probably infused with a house P trinket) to keep up with the problems. :)

IMO the lag fix should have been completely separate to U5 in order to prevent this sort of report happening - the first rule of performance tuning is to change ONE thing at a time. The trouble is that the mechanism changes for fixing lag and the mechanism changes for nerfing TWF were probably entangled in the same code, making it far easier to run with a merged release doing both in one go.

shablala

07-01-2010, 09:44 PM