Combat Feedback for Update 5.

[Asymetric_War]

To all the FANBOIS neg-repping contrary opinions that are NOT derogatory, not trolling and not using profanity:

Do you really thing Eladrin would have bothered posting here, if he wanted to read only "Yes" opinions?

It is rare when these discussions are initiated and are all in all very productive. Already there are been many useful posts on both sides of the argument, and the proposal modified to an extent that does not depress me.

Why is it that you feel the (obviously flawed) Rep System is meant for you to neg rep people who don't agree with you?

There is a famous quote that always stuck with me... "I may not agree with you, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it." or something like that. I forget by whom. Please allow healthy debate to continue and save the red points for people who really warrant it.

well said! +1 rep.

oh, and I think the quote is from Voltaire.

[Fraidnot]

Why is a balance change the answer to a hardware issue? I'm throwing my rogue away.

[Razcar]

Why is it that you feel the (obviously flawed) Rep System is meant for you to neg rep people who don't agree with you?

There is a famous quote that always stuck with me... "I may not agree with you, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it." or something like that. I forget by whom. Please allow healthy debate to continue and save the red points for people who really warrant it.Yeah I've lost over 50 rep today. I've gotten some as well so I'm not begging for any, just saying.

And it was Voltaire :)

[Zenako]

To all the FANBOIS neg-repping contrary opinions that are NOT derogatory, not trolling and not using profanity:

Do you really thing Eladrin would have bothered posting here, if he wanted to read only "Yes" opinions?

It is rare when these discussions are initiated and are all in all very productive. Already there are been many useful posts on both sides of the argument, and the proposal modified to an extent that does not depress me.

Why is it that you feel the (obviously flawed) Rep System is meant for you to neg rep people who don't agree with you?

There is a famous quote that always stuck with me... "I may not agree with you, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it." or something like that. I forget by whom. Please allow healthy debate to continue and save the red points for people who really warrant it.

I can only hope to assume that anyone getting tagged with Neg Rep on a comment was based on the merits of that post. A few posts in this thread were essentially just flames with no meat or real contribution to a discussion. They may well have insulted others or the developers in their rants. That could be the source. Not that it was the opposite view, but more so the manner in which it was expressed could have been the source of neg reps.

Civil discussions from both sides of the issues should not ever merit a thumbs down. Vitriol and insults are never appropriate to a discussion of this nature.

[vVAnjilaVv]

What I am wondering...even tho we know part of this is an actual nerf to TWF and has nothing to do with the lag issue is.......

If this really reduces the DPS lag problem that much won't it create smoother game play.

I have also seen a saying that I like...something along the lines of....."slower is smoother...and smooth is fast."

Meaning if u do something more fluently it actually comes out to being faster than someone whose sole purpose is to do something as fast as they can and makes a lot of mistakes along the way.

In this case......doing it as fast as you can would be all the extra procs and speed boosts to TWF and the mistakes would be all the lag.

Another saying I like is....."is it more important to cross the finish line first......or how people greet you when you do?"

Oh well...sorry for the philosophy :D

[vVAnjilaVv]

Yeah I've lost over 50 rep today. I've gotten some as well so I'm not begging for any, just saying.

And it was Voltaire :)

I have come to conclude that when I say something in a "political" post......I expect to look at my rep each time and see it has gone down......I also use it to determine how my perceptions are viewed by other forumites.

If it stays the same or goes up, I give my thanks and try to word stuff more carefully in the future...not that any of this has anything to do with TWF...sorry...carry on :p

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

I am frustrated. It is showing. I try to avoid posting when I am in this kind of frame of mind. I should try harder. But I am extra annoyed that the few who saw this early got to have real input on this while the rest of us seem to be (most likely anyway) lost in the noise.

If the off-hand collision detect is such a problem, why not tweak the existing system to assume the target is still in range and see if that fixes the lag? That is a minimal change that nerfs no one and may - may - be enough.


because presumably Eladrin has thought that twf has been out of balance (as evidenced by the large number of twf builds in the game - remember eSoS is an anomaly so cannot be used as evidence that thf doesn't need a relative buff), and Eladrin thought that if he's going to go to the effort to recode the off hand combat mechanics to reduce lag, he might as well also examine the power of two weapon fighting and try to rebalance to match the information he presumably has available to him (more than we do).



Is it because they really do want to "balance" TWF too? I am not a conspiracy freak, and I legitimately believe that Turbine's interests coincide with ours on this issue (and on most issues) but really why is Turbine redoing combat entirely when they are stating the problem is a very narrow part of combat, and that part lends itself to other solutions?

I like being able to attack two targets at once
I like being able to have different effects on each hand


which you still can do, but now you need to invest feats to get it.



What happens to an offhand Lightning II? Now it is 1 in 10 to even get a chance to hit (right?) and then another 2-3% chance to proc lightning, or essentially a .002% proc rate? Or my sorceror that likes to throw Mass Hold and go off with her dual puncturers?


your sorc needs to take the twf feats, instead I'm sure he takes things like maximize and empower - would you be justified in complaining about poor dps on your firewalls if you didn't take maximize and empower?



Everyone already knows this stuff yes? I am only now catching on? Because this seems really, really unfortunate for DEX builds.

not really any more unfortunate for dex builds. It's unfortunate for builds that cannot afford the feats or cannot attain the dex/BAB to get the higher level twf feats.

Garth

[vVAnjilaVv]

not really any more unfortunate for dex builds. It's unfortunate for builds that cannot afford the feats or cannot attain the dex/BAB to get the higher level twf feats.

Garth

We still do not know how and/or if they will change requirements for current TWF feats.

Even if STWF is not available to 3/4 BaB classes, as much as I may cringe at my rep bar for saying this........but doesn't it make sense that a full BaB class should be able to do more damage than a 3/4 BaB class....across the board not just by way of having a higher to-hit bonus.

The problem with the rogue dilemna is how do they make traps more deadly so rogues are more wanted without once again destroying the solo'ing aspect of the game...and don't say Rogue hirelings because we all know most people use two types of hirelings.....Arcanes and Clerics......this not including multiple GS hirelings.

[Ganolyn]

There is a famous quote that always stuck with me... "I may not agree with you, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it." or something like that. I forget by whom. Please allow healthy debate to continue and save the red points for people who really warrant it.



I think the forums go by this quote's style more often than not...

"Every man has a right to utter what he thinks truth, and every other man has a right to knock him down for it. Martyrdom is the test."

-Samuel Johnson

[Alintalkin]

We still do not know how and/or if they will change requirements for current TWF feats.

Even if STWF is not available to 3/4 BaB classes, as much as I may cringe at my rep bar for saying this........but doesn't it make sense that a full BaB class should be able to do more damage than a 3/4 BaB class....across the board not just by way of having a higher to-hit bonus.

The problem with the rogue dilemna is how do they make traps more deadly so rogues are more wanted without once again destroying the solo'ing aspect of the game...and don't say Rogue hirelings because we all know most people use two types of hirelings.....Arcanes and Clerics......this not including multiple GS hirelings.

What you say about STWF and 3/4 might be logically true but look at the case of monks. They count as a 3/4 BAB class. Yet when using monk weapons they are full BAB. One should therefore conclude that monks should be able to do as much damage as a normal full BAB class when using a monk weapon. However they don't get to because of STWF seeing them as a 3/4 BAB class when they are actually a full BAB class in certain situations. There is no news however of a way to address this problem. Though they get a 10% chance to double strike with Wind stance IV that in no ways is close to other full BAB classes that can attain 110% (105% in case of ranger) and 100% while monks have 110% and 80%. Monks also need hits for ki generation as to so it is lowering dps potential even more. Just counting hitting monks get a 15% decrease. Counting ki strike struggles it could very well be more. Monks at the very least, should get a way to compensate for such.

Though I myself have a warchanter battle bard and will be soon making a rogue, I can live with a slightly less then 10% dps decrease on them. I cannot however understand in the slightest why my monk would have an over 15% decrease in DPS fighters and paladin DPS only decrease by 5% and when using hand wraps my monk is a full BAB class like they are. I will not mention my suggestion to fix this as I have mentioned it twice in the thread already and do not want to be overtly redundant. I just want people to see that it is not always black and white. It is also not always that a 3/4 BAB class should logically have less dps then a full BAB. Especially when that 3/4 BAB class has full BAB most of the time.

Edit: Yes I know you were in no way singling out the monk class, I just think that the 3/4 BAB case is weak when it comes to monks.
Also sorry about using your post to vent this as I am just annoyed that monks are taking a 15% decrease in attack rate (and over 15% dps decrease) while other 3/4 BAB classes are taking a less then 10% decrease in dps.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Even if STWF is not available to 3/4 BaB classes, as much as I may cringe at my rep bar for saying this........but doesn't it make sense that a full BaB class should be able to do more damage than a 3/4 BaB class....across the board not just by way of having a higher to-hit bonus.


I agree that it doesn't make sense for non primary melee classes (as indicated by their BAB progression) to be able to do as much damage as full BAB.



The problem with the rogue dilemna is how do they make traps more deadly so rogues are more wanted without once again destroying the solo'ing aspect of the game...and don't say Rogue hirelings because we all know most people use two types of hirelings.....Arcanes and Clerics......this not including multiple GS hirelings.

Balancing trapmaking so it's actually useful at end game will be a challenge for Eladrin yet to come. But just because the power of rogues is being reduced now because of this change doesn't mean that they might not be buffed in the future. Of course if the form of that buff is through epic traps of some kind, not every player will like that kind of gameplay.

Garth

[Halock]

80% classes have inherited affinity for twf. Sneak attack, smite, inspire courage all favor twf. And I have not even mentioned monks and (melee)rangers who are forced into being twf. Which leaves Fighters who can go either way, Barbarians and WF-based arcane/divines who usually go THF.

Now tell me, are barbarians (almost exclusive THF users) underpowered? Do they need to take 5-15% dps of the rogue to make poor barbarians viable?

TY for posting this more eloquently than i did, i hope it gets noticed.

[Auran82]

I agree that it doesn't make sense for non primary melee classes (as indicated by their BAB progression) to be able to do as much damage as full BAB.



Balancing trapmaking so it's actually useful at end game will be a challenge for Eladrin yet to come. But just because the power of rogues is being reduced now because of this change doesn't mean that they might not be buffed in the future. Of course if the form of that buff is through epic traps of some kind, not every player will like that kind of gameplay.

Garth

But as far as I am aware, rogues are not supposed to be trap disablers that do a bit of melee fighting on the side. There is a large amount of what a rogue is supposed to be able to do (non combat skills etc) that is pretty much useless in DDO.

Why should other classes be negatively affected if they choose to melee? I thought one of the strengths of this game was the massive amount of choices fro character builds, aren't we just cutting this down with this change?


This has probably already been mentioned, but on the off chance that it hasn't...I don't understand why the devs wouldn't try to install the modified collision engine and see if it has a positive effect on lag before they once again cast an extended heightened slow spell on us.

What I don't understand, isn't it basic programming 101 that when you are trying to solve a problem or fix a bug, the last thing you want to do is make multiple changes to the one system at the same time? Why not make the physics detection change first, see if it has an effect on lag, if so, push it out then start working on these combat changes, it just kinda feels like they were trying to say "Hey look, we are looking into these changes to fix lag! Also, we are making sweeping changes to the combat system at the same time." The initial % for offhand attacks kinda look like they were trying to pass off the changes as reducing lag by reducing the number of attacks.

[Ollathir]

Endgame and Elite, yes. Epic, no. I find epic boring, for the exact reason you described coupled with the fact that I've already completed those quests countless times before.
And I agree that mobs' HP are too high for S&B to become a viable option. Which is exactly why DPS needs to be nerfed, because until DPS is nerfed, mobs' HP aren't going to change.

I don't see that happening. Like was mentioned before, I've seen no indication that any scaling adjustments will be made. If they are, I can picture it making no difference to the flow or speed of the game. Takes X amout of time to beat down A, now, if X = less DPS, A takes longer to beat down, if scaled, same amount of time.



Elaborating on that with appeal to an expert...
Why would an STWF feat be less fun than things like Cleave and Slicing Blow (if they had been fixed to be worthwhile)? All three feats have the end result of causing additional melee damage, so what's the difference?

As a major game designer recently explained (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/25026326560/cataclysm-fury-rotation/), a character option probably isn't much fun if acquiring the option doesn't change what the player does. That fits STWF, because a player who has STWF does exactly the same things as when he only had GTWF (even if the results are a little more successful, he doesn't behave differently). But a player who gets Cleave or Slicing Blow will start doing new behaviors, as he begins watching for situations where those active feats work best and clicking the icon at the right times.

A game where active feats like Cleave and Slicing Blow have a useful place in combat is more fun than if they didn't.

I agree with this in a major way. Game would be a hell of a lot more fun if variety actually worked this way. When I first started playing I thought how cool the feat Whirlwind looked. Of course I also tried to use my heal kits to get back HP's and was iritated when I kept seeing "invalid target" pop-up in my screen.

[geoffhanna]

because presumably Eladrin has thought that twf has been out of balance (as evidenced by the large number of twf builds in the game - remember eSoS is an anomaly so cannot be used as evidence that thf doesn't need a relative buff), and Eladrin thought that if he's going to go to the effort to recode the off hand combat mechanics to reduce lag, he might as well also examine the power of two weapon fighting and try to rebalance to match the information he presumably has available to him (more than we do).

In my professional life I would recommend against this. It is too big and too core. Fix one thing at a time and prove the fix works - in production - before attempting more.


which you still can do, but now you need to invest feats to get it.

I may be misunderstanding - I probably am - but I think this is oversimplified. The second collision detect will be going away, replaced by an assumption, and I think this makes it impossible to attack two different targets at once.

Further, I am frequently able to hit opponents with my main weapon and my offhand on anything except a ONE, thereby applying the effects of each weapon. That will no longer be the case, ever, regardless of feats. My main hand effect applies as it did, but my offhand effect is never attempted in some percentage of the cases.

If I am wrong please explain, I don't want to remain wrong.


your sorc needs to take the twf feats, instead I'm sure he takes things like maximize and empower - would you be justified in complaining about poor dps on your firewalls if you didn't take maximize and empower?
Please note that I am not just fruitlessly complaining, but also proposing a solution. Besides, I am not talking about firewalls, that is a total straw man. I am saying that my sorc has weapons and spell choices that she acquired for a purpose that they can no longer fulfill, and a favorite tactic that is now closed to her. The fact that I spent extra to get matched weapons (she is vain), and then extra again to make them Icy only exacerbates it.

The whole idea of ensnaring your opponent and then auto-critting it to death was nerfed twice already (changes to W/P and changes to the woo woo stick). This nerfs it again, probably beyond any remaining usefulness.


not really any more unfortunate for dex builds. It's unfortunate for builds that cannot afford the feats or cannot attain the dex/BAB to get the higher level twf feats.

Again I may be misreading this but I don't think so. A DEX build gets DPS from the weapons it carries. Not just elemental damage but also status drains/stuns/lightning/radiance/vorpal/whatever. Today, it is common to be in situations where 95% of your offhand hits are striking (sometimes 100%). That is no longer possible, and I am asserting that difference is a bigger problem for DEX builds.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

Plenty of other posts about people struggling to get into Shroud or TOD raids.

Now the Turbine have confirmed one source of lag being TWF I can see the following happening.

Shroud LFM
Before update
Your a Monk/Ranger/Rogue causes to much DPS lag ... you can't come in ......

After Update
Your Monk/Ranger/Rogue doesn't do enough DPS ..... you can't come in .......

A friend of mine started a Rogue with THF ... we all laughed at him ... boy is he a genius.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

In my professional life I would recommend against this. It is too big and too core. Fix one thing at a time and prove the fix works - in production - before attempting more.


I agree, but I suspect the temptation of mixing a nerf with OMG THE LAG IS GONE YOU CAN HAVE MY FIRSTBORN is just too much for the devs.



I may be misunderstanding - I probably am - but I think this is oversimplified. The second collision detect will be going away, replaced by an assumption, and I think this makes it impossible to attack two different targets at once.


Correct. This also affect the strike where the mainhand kills the mob - in this case the offhand strike (and doublestrike) is lost.



Further, I am frequently able to hit opponents with my main weapon and my offhand on anything except a ONE, thereby applying the effects of each weapon. That will no longer be the case, ever, regardless of feats. My main hand effect applies as it did, but my offhand effect is never attempted in some percentage of the cases.

If I am wrong please explain, I don't want to remain wrong.


I think you are misunderstanding, the weapon in your offhand still happens, it just happens at the % chance as calculated by the number of twf feats (and tempest level). It's true that e.g. a gtwf fighter will not get an offhand attack in 20% of the cases though when previously there was an attack roll every time.



Please note that I am not just fruitlessly complaining, but also proposing a solution. Besides, I am not talking about firewalls, that is a total straw man. I am saying that my sorc has weapons and spell choices that she acquired for a purpose that they can no longer fulfill, and a favorite tactic that is now closed to her. The fact that I spent extra to get matched weapons (she is vain), and then extra again to make them Icy only exacerbates it.


Yup but this is a fluid game. My bard who right now can happily melee raid bosses (from behind) using 2x transmuting of pg rapiers and even though her attack is only around +30 can still hit, can no longer do this, because without taking any of the twf feats (which I can't afford) the % rate of offhand is only 20% and that simply isn't worth the -4 to hit (or whatever it is for offhand with 0 feats).



The whole idea of ensnaring your opponent and then auto-critting it to death was nerfed twice already (changes to W/P and changes to the woo woo stick). This nerfs it again, probably beyond any remaining usefulness.


For those who do not have the twf feats or tempest: correct.



Again I may be misreading this but I don't think so. A DEX build gets DPS from the weapons it carries. Not just elemental damage but also status drains/stuns/lightning/radiance/vorpal/whatever. Today, it is common to be in situations where 95% of your offhand hits are striking (sometimes 100%). That is no longer possible, and I am asserting that difference is a bigger problem for DEX builds.

For those without the feats, but if you have the twf feats then these are striking, and you are still getting all the effects/to-hit of whatever is in your offhand when those offhand strikes happen. It's only doublestrike that uses the weapon in your primary hand.

Garth

[Cashiry]

Can we form a consensus that STWF should not be added to the game, irrespective of whatever other changes transpire regarding TWF and attack speeds?


it shouldn't be added.. its a lvl 21 Feat....

[Banedern]

I have only ever posted 2 times ever since i started playing this game. This is the thread of both posts the first of which I was being sarcastic, but reacting to my irritation with the proposed "nerf".

What this may very well be all about is money. The introduction of the ddo store has seen some changes to the game that have made sense only as a monitary decision on the part of those who collect our money, nerfing true res clickies on the shroud items that we had to grind to get to a simple raise dead and no more res cookies during the holiday season. Why? Maybe because you can now open your wallet and purchase true res "cakes" at the ddo store. Well one could argue that if they make drastic changes to many of the dps builds as they are suggesting to try here "to fix lag" it may just be about money. How many people will just click on the ol ddo store button and pick themselves up a handy dandy lesser reincarnation heart of wood to fix thier now broken character or with dps being nerfed back how many clerics will down a pot or two extra in a quest to get the completion while the reduced dps takes that little bit longer to beat down the boss.

I have no problem with the ddo store, I even use it myself. What I do have a problem with is when changes are made that seem like they may just be another way to make a little more cash.

Then again maybe its just me

[Coldin]

It's a bit of shame that Eladrin posted this on a Friday of a long weekend. It would have been nice to get a few more dev posts. Three days of idle speculation aren't much fun after a certain point. Ideas mostly just get hashed and rehashed.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

It's a bit of shame that Eladrin posted this on a Friday of a long weekend. It would have been nice to get a few more dev posts. Three days of idle speculation aren't much fun after a certain point. Ideas mostly just get hashed and rehashed.

Yes; posting on a Friday before a long weekend, as well as posting on the same day as the +5 reincarnation tokens (to throw fuel on the tinfoil hat wearing ddo store conspiracy theorists) probably wasn't the wisest thing in the world to do. It wasn't helped that the weather in Boston was pretty good either.

Garth

[Keridan]

Yes; posting on a Friday before a long weekend, as well as posting on the same day as the +5 reincarnation tokens (to throw fuel on the tinfoil hat wearing ddo store conspiracy theorists) probably wasn't the wisest thing in the world to do. It wasn't helped that the weather in Boston was pretty good either.

Garth

Don't forget the extra bonus pts for a 50$ purchase this weekend! That's the respec they are going to say they offered us ;)

[MarcusCole]

If it ain't broke.....



I just hope turbine will stick with its "Powered by our Fans" motto on this one.

[Swedishchef]

it is a nerf, yes, just not related to the lag fix

How is it not related when Eladrin stated this is a way for them to attack the dps lagg issue?

maybe it has a small impact but the nerf is a differant point

the nerf isnt tied to the lag fix
and DA did fix lag

DA fixed the pathing lag, this change will fix dps lag.

Talking against your self much?

[vVAnjilaVv]

What you say about STWF and 3/4 might be logically true but look at the case of monks. They count as a 3/4 BAB class. Yet when using monk weapons they are full BAB. One should therefore conclude that monks should be able to do as much damage as a normal full BAB class when using a monk weapon. However they don't get to because of STWF seeing them as a 3/4 BAB class when they are actually a full BAB class in certain situations. There is no news however of a way to address this problem. Though they get a 10% chance to double strike with Wind stance IV that in no ways is close to other full BAB classes that can attain 110% (105% in case of ranger) and 100% while monks have 110% and 80%. Monks also need hits for ki generation as to so it is lowering dps potential even more. Just counting hitting monks get a 15% decrease. Counting ki strike struggles it could very well be more. Monks at the very least, should get a way to compensate for such.

Though I myself have a warchanter battle bard and will be soon making a rogue, I can live with a slightly less then 10% dps decrease on them. I cannot however understand in the slightest why my monk would have an over 15% decrease in DPS fighters and paladin DPS only decrease by 5% and when using hand wraps my monk is a full BAB class like they are. I will not mention my suggestion to fix this as I have mentioned it twice in the thread already and do not want to be overtly redundant. I just want people to see that it is not always black and white. It is also not always that a 3/4 BAB class should logically have less dps then a full BAB. Especially when that 3/4 BAB class has full BAB most of the time.

Edit: Yes I know you were in no way singling out the monk class, I just think that the 3/4 BAB case is weak when it comes to monks.
Also sorry about using your post to vent this as I am just annoyed that monks are taking a 15% decrease in attack rate (and over 15% dps decrease) while other 3/4 BAB classes are taking a less then 10% decrease in dps.

I 100% agree about monks....they HAVE to make an exception with monks and STWF as long as they are centered or give them some other form of compensation...if they don't it will just be an atrocity to the class.

As I see it there should already be an exception to how early they can take the TWF and THF feats...just tie it to being centered...I mean seriously how many people play their monks uncentered? :eek:

[danielhrobbins]

Sorry, I just completely disagree with the notion of making trapsmithing harder and more requisite as some kind of trade-off for nerfing the DPS and TWF damage. The near-uselessness of trapsmithing as a primary ability is a fight I've given up and accepted long ago, and frankly I like it ... it really opened up the rogue class to me, and also made me appreciate the amount of damage and overall breadth of ability a rogue has.

Concerning the proposed changes, this really really worries me. If you take into account a rogue's sneak attack bonuses and crunch numbers with proposed changes, it seems like it would add up to a lot of damage possibly lost (and I'm curious why rogues aren't also among the classes that would get higher offhand percentages?).

Please, please, please: just try the physics check reduction first and see how that helps before making these potentially drastic changes to TWFs. I realize it will probably only be a little bit, but every little bit helps.





We still do not know how and/or if they will change requirements for current TWF feats.

Even if STWF is not available to 3/4 BaB classes, as much as I may cringe at my rep bar for saying this........but doesn't it make sense that a full BaB class should be able to do more damage than a 3/4 BaB class....across the board not just by way of having a higher to-hit bonus.

The problem with the rogue dilemna is how do they make traps more deadly so rogues are more wanted without once again destroying the solo'ing aspect of the game...and don't say Rogue hirelings because we all know most people use two types of hirelings.....Arcanes and Clerics......this not including multiple GS hirelings.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Sorry, I just completely disagree with the notion of making trapsmithing harder and more requisite as some kind of trade-off for nerfing the DPS and TWF damage. The near-uselessness of trapsmithing as a primary ability is a fight I've given up and accepted long ago, and frankly I like it ... it really opened up the rogue class to me, and also made me appreciate the amount of damage and overall breadth of ability a rogue has.

Concerning the proposed changes, this really really worries me. If you take into account a rogue's sneak attack bonuses and crunch numbers with proposed changes, it seems like it would add up to a lot of damage possibly lost (and I'm curious why rogues aren't also among the classes that would get higher offhand percentages?).

Please, please, please: just try the physics check reduction first and see how that helps before making these potentially drastic changes to TWFs. I realize it will probably only be a little bit, but every little bit helps.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, Turbine knows this is a huge balancing issue and probably just threw the rough sketch out to see the reactions and what they will have to tweak to make it work.

I would not look at Eladrinn's edited charted and think that is the end of the discusion...that is what this thread is for.

IMO....there is going to be a lot more adjustment to this before we see a live version.

[Khellendros13]

*sniff sniff*... smells like Heroic Surge.

That had less of an uproar, or at least posts regarding it. That got canned for the time being. Let's hope they realise the same for this, and just implement the lag fix.

In all honesty, who actually thinks THF needs TWF to be nerfed to be viable? Plenty of THF toons running around, and it is still the choice for casting classes to use with no feat investments.

Removing glancing blows is another kick in the jewels too for those that play tactically. How boring if we all just stand there and beatdown on trash as well.

[danielhrobbins]

I have to agree. My rogue is my favorite and by-far-most-played toon; in fact I frequently joke all my other toons are just gear hunters for my rogue. I worked really hard, for a long time, to get my rogue to the satisfying level of bad-a** that it is now, and frankly this will just make me give up on the game ... and I'm not a rage-quitter.


This.

If my Rogue, which is my favorite character, can no longer do her primary objective (DPS) I will find a better game.

[SteeleTrueheart]

Did we get any confirmation on whether wind stance will provide an incremental double strike bonus for each level to compensate for the loss of the insight attack speed bonus or is the 10% bonus only given for the final 4th tier?

My twf pali will admit that twf has been a little too powerful compared to the pnp feat versions. And the chance of triple crit smites sounds fun. Yes I know the chance of it happening is very low, but I play for fun and the day it does happen will be a whole bucket of fun for me.

[Natashaelle]

The implication being that an AC of 45-55 would be at all useful in epic, whereas nearly every report I've seen has indicated that the AC required to be show any misses is in the 80-100 range. Maybe these people were inflating their values, or ignoring the weakest of the epic monsters, or maybe you're including debuffs to attack bonus in your data.

Ultimately, I fail to see how everyone else who has discussed AC in epics has managed to not see an AC of 55 being somewhat worthwhile, as I'm sure there are plenty of rangers, monks and tank-types running around in DPS mode while maintaining an incidental AC in the 50-65 range.

The 45/50 number includes the proposed changes, where the trash mobs will get -1d20 to hit. As things stand now, 45/50 is of no use whatsoever.

Currently, at 55+ you start to lose HP fractionally slower than other people, probably due to the occasional glancing blows being made on you rather than full attacks. That is the only thing that I mean when I suggest 55+ currently making a slight difference, and nothing more.

I repeat, I have never stated that AC 55+ can be any sort of decent AC in Epic, just that that's where AC, in some Epic quests and against some Epic trash (but not all) starts to slow HP loss for you. How many times do I have to repeat this, before you get the point that I'm not suggesting that AC 55 is a meaningful level of AC in Epic ? Because it isn't ?

In cases where I've been up to about AC 75 I have seen mobs actually miss me completely with greater frequency, and yes, you are absolutely right, I'm talking about the weaker mobs (although AC 75 is actually somewhat useful against the extremely weak ones, like the pet hyenas in WK). That is why I am talking about AC 75+ (currently) being needed for any sort of significant level of it. I cannot predict how much this will be affected, where the ordinary epic trash is concerned, by the new -1d20 penalties for the Epic trash ; though logic suggests that you will start to see misses at about 55+ in the new system, even though they will still be few and far between. Significant AC is also likely to be starting at 65+ instead of 75+ -- Note please, *starting* -- this does not mean that AC 75 is high enough to constitute *good* AC in Epic, because it isn't ; nor will AC 65 be in the new system.

And FWIW, yes there are many people who consider that AC which is about 10 points below minimum overall tank level AC for a quest is worthless, and they report it as such ; even where in actual fact, the lower AC may be of some benefit against some of the weaker mobs.

[Natashaelle]

Can we form a consensus that STWF should not be added to the game, irrespective of whatever other changes transpire regarding TWF and attack speeds?

No.

[Natashaelle]

It bears on your credibility...which is none

Cripes, can you please STOP asking Calebro to show you his toons ?

It is becoming very tedious, and is undermining your own credibility rather than anyone else's that you expect someone's MyDDO page to be of any relevance at all to this ongoing discussion.

[ahpook]

I officially give up trying to get through this whole thread. So at the risk of repeating what others have said:

My biggest concern is for assassins. With the offhand being at 80% and piggybacking on the collision detection of the main hand, it would seem that the double assassinate will be a thing of the past. If the double assassinate was WAI then this will be hard to swallow. Since the assassinate ability is already a special attack (doesn't break stealth), hopefully they can code it as 2 independent attacks.

I do think the new numbers are not so bad and much better than the 55% for GTWF that was initially proposed. I don't mind the "nerf" and don't think it is that big of deal. I am disappointed that so many so-called gamers out there find that this minor set back is too much of a challenge for them.

[Torvic]

I still fail to understand why it matters if one fighting style is better for "standard" melee builds. THF is optimal for some viable builds, there is also the epic SoS. Why does it matter that TWF is right for 80% of builds or whatever? There is always going to be one fighting style that's best for a certain build, so you're not really introducing more choice here, nor are you introducing more variety (that would be adding a third fighting style). Even if it did, it's not worth nerfing several toons that people have put a lot of work into just to give more "options" for builds, there are already many many viable options for toons to build, this is not DDO's problem.

[Druxan]

basically right now a monk gets 20 hits on 10 clicks (assuming GTWF) and +35% attack speed increase (10% stacks with haste.) so that means now we're doing about 27 (including 35% attack speed increase, no haste) attacks in the time it takes to do 10 clicks

the proposed changes are a monk would get 19 hits in 10 clicks (on average and assuming GTWF) with a 15% attack speed increase (does not stack with haste.) changes are going to work out to 21.85 (including 15% attack speed increase, no haste, on average) attacks in the time it takes to do 10 clicks

over 100 clicks that's a loss of 51.5 swings or on my dex monk (using no wraps/ToD rings while power attack is on at 22 strength and no misses) a loss of 669.5 - 1596.5 damage

that's a lot if my calculations are correct

Edit: just tried to gauge the speed of 10 clicks, it's around 5.3 seconds for the game to actually register (no stance or attack speed increases) so that's every 53 seconds you can lose 669.5 - 1596.5 damage if you're just using your fists. With +5 Holy wraps of PG (while power attack is on, no misses) you're loosing 1081.5 - 2781 damage

[Swedishchef]

Cripes, can you please STOP asking Calebro to show you his toons ?

It is becoming very tedious, and is undermining your own credibility rather than anyone else's that you expect someone's MyDDO page to be of any relevance at all to this ongoing discussion.

Post your toons please, aaahh yes your not even playing ere, as u said on the EU forums: can all the ones playing on the US go post on the US forum, so can you please go post on the EU forum.

Bad troll go home.

[Bloodhaven]

If this is implemented EVERY TOON on EVERY account should get a special bound to toon +20 Heart of wood that allows for race re-speck. AND the opportunity to un-craft green steel weapons for 100% return. All of this at no cost or additional time investment.

It might be a good idea to add alters for De constructing and tier 1 and 3 shroud crafting to Amerath outdoor area.


I have over 17 toons and ALL of them use 2 weapons to do damage. Thats allot of time wasted on GS items and allot of feets wasted aswell.

Out of 17+ toons I play <17 on main account and 4 on 2nd account> I use 2 weapons to deal damage to portals, pillars, and other imoble objects on all my toons.

I use 2 weapons to deal damage in epic on all my toons.

I use 2 weapons on stunned, held, stoned or autocrit mobs with all my toons.

I have a large investment in GS and other looted weapons. Just look at my join date and you can see that i'v spent allot of time gearing out my toons.

^^

Out of 17 geared out toons only 1 has all available TWF feets.

[deathtouch]

All I know is that I would expect one +3 Heart of Wood in each of my char inventory if this goes live. :) Just in case you nerf my toons again.

your toons are all gimp oldman you might need 5 +3 hearts each toon ;)

[Bloodhaven]

If this is implemented EVERY TOON on EVERY account should get a special bound to toon +20 Heart of wood that allows for race re-speck. AND the opportunity to un-craft green steel weapons for 100% return. All of this at no cost or additional time investment.

If this is dun and posted by a dev that it will be dun there will be a less biased discussion about how this change will effect the good of the game.

[Bloodhaven]

your toons are all gimp oldman you might need 5 +3 hearts each toon ;)


Already edited to make them +20 hearts.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

basically right now a monk gets 20 hits on 10 clicks (assuming GTWF) and +35% attack speed increase (10% stacks with haste.) so that means now we're doing about 27 (including 35% attack speed increase, no haste) attacks in the time it takes to do 10 clicks

the proposed changes are a monk would get 19 hits in 10 clicks (on average and assuming GTWF) with a 15% attack speed increase (does not stack with haste.) changes are going to work out to 21.85 (including 15% attack speed increase, no haste, on average) attacks in the time it takes to do 10 clicks

over 100 clicks that's a loss of 51.5 swings or on my dex monk (using no wraps/ToD rings while power attack is on at 22 strength) a loss of 669.5 - 1596.5 damage

that's a lot if my calculations are correct

Currently a monk gets 20 hits on 10 clicks and a +12% (flurry) +15% (haste) + 10% (insight) = 41% boost

the proposed changes monk gets 19 hits in 10 clicks and a 15% (haste) + 12% (flurry) = 29% boost.

so 20*1.41 vs 19*1.288 = 28.336 vs 24.472 which is an approx 14% nerf.

This is actually towards the light end of the nerf bat range, unless the devs decide to add stwf, a feat which monks will be unable to take due to lack of BAB, and that puts a fly in the ointment for rogues and monks.

Garth

[NuclearCoffee]

This could be the beginning of the end for this MMOG.
Historicly any time the Devs of a game, start radicaly messing with game mechanics of that game, it leaves patrons angry and frustrated.
I have played The Shroud before and after the data move, it was not half as bad before the move!
Why has no one else though maybe something went wrong there???
The problem is bandwidth, and your even telling me the problem is bandwidth. That why the need to reduce the size of the code. How about throwing some hardware @ the problem first?

[FluffyCalico]

So if I understand correctly now when you are holding 2 weapons both swings must go to the same target even if you don't have anything targeted? So TWF also gets a reduction in vorpals smites banishes etc as now you can no longer hit one with your main hand and 1 with your off hand as both would have to go the the same mob.

[Druxan]

This could be the beginning of the end for this MMOG.
Historicly any time the Devs of a game, start radicaly messing with game mechanics of that game, it leaves patrons angry and frustrated.
The problem is bandwidth, and your even telling me the problem is bandwidth. That why the need to reduce the size of the code. How about throwing some hardware @ the problem first?

mmm hardware, agreed with this idea.

[Yaga_Nub]

If this is implemented EVERY TOON on EVERY account should get a special bound to toon +20 Heart of wood that allows for race re-speck. AND the opportunity to un-craft green steel weapons for 100% return. All of this at no cost or additional time investment.

It might be a good idea to add alters for De constructing and tier 1 and 3 shroud crafting to Amerath outdoor area.


I have over 17 toons and ALL of them use 2 weapons to do damage. Thats allot of time wasted on GS items and allot of feets wasted aswell.

Out of 17+ toons I play <17 on main account and 4 on 2nd account> I use 2 weapons to deal damage to portals, pillars, and other imoble objects on all my toons.

I use 2 weapons to deal damage in epic on all my toons.

I use 2 weapons on stunned, held, stoned or autocrit mobs with all my toons.

I have a large investment in GS and other looted weapons. Just look at my join date and you can see that i'v spent allot of time gearing out my toons.

^^

Out of 17 geared out toons only 1 has all available TWF feets.

Yeah good luck with that.

[Natashaelle]

Post your toons please, aaahh yes your not even playing ere, as u said on the EU forums: can all the ones playing on the US go post on the US forum, so can you please go post on the EU forum.

Bad troll go home.

<pokes tongue out> nyaah nyaah nyaaaah !!!

[Coldin]

mmm hardware, agreed with this idea.

As anyone that really knows programming will tell you, efficient code makes a huge difference. Much more than any increase in hardware will do.

[Tamerlane]

So if I understand correctly now when you are holding 2 weapons both swings must go to the same target even if you don't have anything targeted? So TWF also gets a reduction in vorpals smites banishes etc as now you can no longer hit one with your main hand and 1 with your off hand as both would have to go the the same mob.

we dont know that for sure, we are assuming that.

what we do know is that now, each hand calculates collision, and in the proposed fix, only the main hand calculates collision and the off hand weapons assumes the same collision condition.

I know that if i target one mob that is farther away and take a swing i can "accidentally" hit a mob that is still close. we do not completely know what is involved in a "collision calculation" it might actually track where more then just our targeted mob is. it may track all mobs that are close by. some people do attack without targets at all and the game still manages to figure out if they can hit stuff....

[Isolani]

Ehh, can I get a refund on the +2 tomes I've bought at the DDO store so a lot of my builds could get GTWF? Thanks.

[FluffyCalico]

Ehh, can I get a refund on the +2 tomes I've bought at the DDO store so a lot of my builds could get GTWF? Thanks.

Meh I want them to turn my +3 dex tome to a +4 so can can get the STWF feat they just tossed back in. Either that or unlimited 20% xp pots for a an extra TR just to get 1 more DEX point. I don't mind hunting a +3 but +4s are not so easy to come by.

[emptysands]

Traditionally the software development mantra is "make it work, then make it fast." In this case it seems that combat is working, but just not fast enough. I think fundamentally changing how combat works may be the wrong approach. Now I certainly don't know the underlying architecture of the DDO system, but if high end Raid lag is due to heavy processing requirements then the server is simply lacking computing capacity to accommodate the load. Computing capacity is understood to be a far cheaper resource than development efforts are.

In the age of clouds and virtualization, why not spawn a dedicated combat server which will handle all the combat processing and I/O for high-end content? That will liberate the main servers from the task by reducing resource contention. Furthermore these combat server instances can be spawned as-needed to conserve resources and automatically scale with resource/load demand.

In other words the problem might have an architectural solution that would enable advancements in many other areas. A square peg can fit into a round hole, if the hole is big enough. Rather than grind off the square's edges, you can expand the hole. Making combat fit into existing lag realities is different from making lag realities fit existing combat.

If you don't do that already that is...



One of the traditional methods for speeding up random number generation is pre-generation.

Say mapping 5 x 1d6 to 5d6 pre-generated random number.

[Druxan]

As anyone that really knows programming will tell you, efficient code makes a huge difference. Much more than any increase in hardware will do.

As I am not a programmer I didn't know that. good to know, thank you.

Still don't like the loss in dps though.

[ddoplayer064]

Lord, what a mess...

Couple of things really stand out.

1. The Rangers Tempest line is useless with this change. 3 near worthless feats for a +2 to AC and a 5% chance to proc a double strike? No frakin' way is that, in any shape or form, balanced.

2. Spending twice the resources (and more stat allocation points) to do inferior damage to THF? Cool...

3. I want a full respec, especially for my Bard. I would have dumped dex instead of spending 10 build points there, and would have saved 15k plat on NOT buying a +1 dex tome to get iTWF.

[Asymetric_War]

Thanks for the massive amount of feedback all.

We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:

Code:

Doublestrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%

* Only when wielding two weapons.

So Rogues will still get screwed and so will all multiclass toons. Thanks for nothing! As I said before, the ONLY thing rogues have (since parties just waltz merrily through traps) is DPS. And now you're going to take that away from us. I wonder what you think is going to motivate us to keep playing and paying?

I'm going to have to stop following this thread, the utter cluelessness on display here is spoiling my mood and I don't want to walk around ****ed off all day. But I'm going to say this one more time : every time you people make multiclass toons less viable you take away from the main asset that DDO has over other MMO's - the ability to customize and create a near infinite range of builds. And every time you do that you lose people like me. That may not matter to you now that you've got lots of new players in but folks like me are the only reason this game didn't go completely belly up in the first year after you botched the launch. You don't have to appriciate that but you could at least refrain from overtly spitting in our faces.

[Pfold]

I'm trying my best to wrap my brain around this one.

Maybe I'm looking at this in the wrong way but it seems as though you're removing 1 roll ('piggybacking' o/h) and adding a 'doublestrike' feature. Does the doublestrike feature add another roll to the process? If so, what got accomplished?

Let me think about this in another way:

You want to remove/reduce calculations in order to alleviate lag on your end. If you reduce the overall speed of twf, why not reduce opponents' hp pools and nerf thf damage rates accordingly so everything seems unchanged on our end?

I agree change is inevitable. This game just punishes you too much when a change like this comes about. I mean, if it were like 50g to change your spec it would be another story.... ....lol ;)

[Ollathir]

I'm trying my best to wrap my brain around this one.

Maybe I'm looking at this in the wrong way but it seems as though you're removing 1 roll ('piggybacking' o/h) and adding a 'doublestrike' feature. Does the doublestrike feature add another roll to the process? If so, what got accomplished?

Let me think about this in another way:

You want to remove/reduce calculations in order to alleviate lag on your end. If you reduce the overall speed of twf, why not reduce opponents' hp pools and nerf thf damage rates accordingly so everything seems unchanged on our end?

I agree change is inevitable. This game just punishes you too much when a change like this comes about. I mean, if it were like 50g to change your spec it would be another story.... ....lol ;)

Its the physics detection checks they are trying to address. Seems it slows stuff up more than a simple roll.

[FluffyCalico]

1) Casters used to DPS so they have monsters 100X the hp and made greensteel weapons.
2) People use to run past trash mobs so they gave us DA
3) People used to make AC toons so they gave us Glancing blows
4) People used to love min 2 so they nerfed it
5) Casters use to debuff and finger of death stuff so they gave everything that matters blanket immunities
6) People used to use w/p so they broke it
7) People used to take the 2hf feats so they are breaking them now
8) People used to make 2wf so they are nerfing them

Did I miss anything?

[Visty]

Talking against your self much?

nop



I have over 17 toons and ALL of them use 2 weapons to do damage. Thats allot of time wasted on GS items and allot of feets wasted aswell.

and ppl say twf wouldnt be overpowered but sorry, if one person has 17 twflers already it says more then thousand words

[sephiroth1084]

Elaborating on that with appeal to an expert...
Why would an STWF feat be less fun than things like Cleave and Slicing Blow (if they had been fixed to be worthwhile)? All three feats have the end result of causing additional melee damage, so what's the difference?

As a major game designer recently explained (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/25026326560/cataclysm-fury-rotation/), a character option probably isn't much fun if acquiring the option doesn't change what the player does. That fits STWF, because a player who has STWF does exactly the same things as when he only had GTWF (even if the results are a little more successful, he doesn't behave differently). But a player who gets Cleave or Slicing Blow will start doing new behaviors, as he begins watching for situations where those active feats work best and clicking the icon at the right times.

A game where active feats like Cleave and Slicing Blow have a useful place in combat is more fun than if they didn't.
"You must spread more rep around, blah, blah blah..."

I guess so. It's harder to accurately read these things when unhelpful moderators are squishing dozens of separate topics into a single thread for "ease of reading".
Absolutely. I find it fairly disheartening to see two more pages of responses creep up in the time it takes me to write one. I have no ****ing clue how the devs could possibly be trying to keep up (or catch up) with all of this.

For one, while providing the information in one, easily accessible place was a good idea, it should have then been divided into multiple topics. Part of the confusion here is due to the juxtaposition of the language concerning the lag fix, and that of the nerf, leading many to read the nerf as being a solution to lag (which it is partly).

[Ollathir]

1) Casters used to DPS so they have monsters 100X the hp and made greensteel weapons.
2) People use to run past trash mobs so they gave us DA
3) People used to make AC toons so they gave us Glancing blows
4) People used to love min 2 so they nerfed it
5) Casters use to debuff and finger of death stuff so they gave everything that matters blanket immunities
6) People used to use w/p so they broke it
7) People used to take the 2hf feats so they are breaking them now
8) People used to make 2wf so they are nerfing them

Did I miss anything?

Only thing that comes to my mind is the whole Epic fragments instead of tokens deal but that sort of dont belong.

[Pfold]

Its the physics detection checks they are trying to address. Seems it slows stuff up more than a simple roll.

Can't they preserve dps outputs as they are and still implement this change in the formula? I think that's what a good degree of the disappointment is stemming from.

Seems like they're just going to gum up the works even more. You can't put a bandaid on open heart surgery. Everyone would probably be better served if a new combat system was created from scratch to streamline the entire process with little affect to the end user.

We'll wait, we promise. As long as you're a little quicker than that search function on the ah ;)

[vVAnjilaVv]

Can't they preserve dps outputs as they are and still implement this change in the formula? I think that's what a good degree of the disappointment is stemming from.

Seems like they're just going to gum up the works even more. You can't put a bandaid on open heart surgery. Everyone would probably be better served if a new combat system was created from scratch to streamline the entire process with little affect to the end user.

We'll wait, we promise. As long as you're a little quicker than that search function on the ah ;)

Don't forget, a large part of the change is an intended nerf to TWF.....the lag issue is only part of why they are doing this.

Basically they WANT you to do LESS dps as a TWF.....that's intentional.

[Pfold]

Don't forget, a large part of the change is an intended nerf to TWF.....the lag issue is only part of why they are doing this.

Basically they WANT you to do LESS dps as a TWF.....that's intentional.

So, let me get this straight....


We're getting pigeonholed into playing thf and they're pretending to fix the lag in doing so?

Is this accurate?

I think I got it now;)

[FluffyCalico]

So, let me get this straight....


We're getting pigeonholed into playing thf and they're pretending to fix the lag in doing so?

Is this accurate?

I think I got it now;)

Actually 2hf is taking a big nerf too :eek:

PS> Easy to miss its only in like 1 post but they borking up the 2HF feats.

[Pfold]

Actually 2hf is taking a big nerf too :eek:

Doh!

So just pretending to fix the lag then. ;)

[Swedishchef]

Basically they WANT you to do LESS dps as a TWF.....that's intentional.´

And it makes you do less dps as THF aswell if you do some calculation on it.

What i got from this is:
-We will nerf the mobbs in EPIC, oops guys we forgott all the dps builds out there, they will now blaze epic and get better stuff.
-YAY i got it let´s nerf the dps for all twf and thf by 40 and the s&b can feel usefull in epic, we can also make it sound like we trying to fix the dps lagg, but instead they will spend more time in shroud/vod/tod/epic etc etc so we don´t have to add more material as fast bc now they will have to spend more time in the quests they alrdy love to grind. And let´s not forgett all thoose going for TR they will have to spend more time in each q due to less dps.

SUCCESS = we don´t have to fix lagg, less new material, more grdining... happy days:rolleyes:

[vVAnjilaVv]

So, let me get this straight....


We're getting pigeonholed into playing thf and they're pretending to fix the lag in doing so?

Is this accurate?

I think I got it now;)

Not entirely, it's been said many times that fixing the lag was a small part of it....not ALL of it.

No pigeonhole has been created yet...this is not even in testing so I would not go looking into it too deeply...you may wanna hold off on making any TWF builds until this is more resolved tho.....but I seriously do not think it's going to be THAT bad.....it would be a game breaker if it was.

And besides.....if THF in some way becomes more powerful than TWF after this...u can be pretty much guaranteed they will either make TWF better or will nerf THF....I doubt your gonna find a safe place for very long as far as that goes.

If THF became better and everyone started only playing those types it would ring the nerf bell for Turbine all over again.

[Cetus]

What would be the problem with implementing the doublestrike feature for TWF'ers exclusively and adding extra perks or percentages to bring the dps back up to an unchanged level. That way the dps is unchanged, the physical detection is as if they were a two hander, and THF'ers remain untouched.

THF'ers were not contributors to lag to the extent that TWF'ers were, so if the system is digesting the detections as if its a buncha THF"ers, lag is reduced and EVERYONE gets to keep their dps. Noone ever complained about TWF being overpowered (I personally do just fine with a two hander) and thus everyone is happy.

[vVAnjilaVv]

What would be the problem with implementing the doublestrike feature for TWF'ers exclusively and adding extra perks or percentages to bring the dps back up to an unchanged level. That way the dps is unchanged, the physical detection is as if they were a two hander, and THF'ers remain untouched.

THF'ers were not contributors to lag to the extent that TWF'ers were, so if the system is digesting the detections as if its a buncha THF"ers, lag is reduced and EVERYONE gets to keep their dps. Noone ever complained about TWF being overpowered (I personally do just fine with a two hander) and thus everyone is happy.

Well...supposedly there are tooo many TWF'ers.....I personally love playing my Greataxe fighter as much as my Dual rapier ranger....so I really don't know what the deal is.

I know a lot of flavor of the month tempest/monk splashes will need to change more than 3 levels of class to probably be viable after the nerf....but I won't go there......I just got back some of the rep I lost :D

And if the lag thing has something to do with detection checks then it's blatantly obvious why they are taking glancing blows away from attack while moving...even tho a lot of THF will still do moving attacks because it increases survivability a lot of times.

This seems like a whole new combat system and we may well be seeing THF working much more differently also after the TWF change depending on how succesfully it is implemented.

[Pfold]

Well, they've 'fixed' the lag a few times before and I'm sure plenty of times before I started playing yet it is still here.

I can't understand how other games can run seamlessly (no lag) with just as many things going on if not more and turbine seemingly can't figure it out. Is it a mystery of the universe that I'll only understand when I die? Probably lol

I'll be the first to admit that I'm no programmer but I'm no automotive engineer either and I know when car is tuned and working properly. ;)

Someone made mention of the fact that software > hardware. Why multiple instances of the marketplace etc? Is the script that botched that it's the only way their servers can handle the load? I'm not being facetious, I'm asking seriously. If that's the case then it seems the whole game needs retooling not just the combat system or twf.

[Cetus]

Well...supposedly there are tooo many TWF'ers.....I personally love playing my Greataxe fighter as much as my Dual rapier ranger....so I really don't know what the deal is.

I know a lot of flavor of the month tempest/monk splashes will need to change more than 3 levels of class to probably be viable after the nerf....but I won't go there......I just got back some of the rep I lost :D

And that makes my point, THF'ers are not complaining that their dps is so low in the eyes of TWF, quite the contrary in some cases. I feel that this feature should be a PURELY lag based effect, and the DPS should be UNTOUCHED in both departments.

I'd rather have the developers surprise us with a wider weapon choice in terms of future epic-ifications for TWF'ers to seek after something as THF'ers do for the ESOS. That, I believe would be a funner and less aggressive approach to work on any existing dps gaps between the two styles.

[vVAnjilaVv]

And that makes my point, THF'ers are not complaining that their dps is so low in the eyes of TWF, quite the contrary in some cases. I feel that this feature should be a PURELY lag based effect, and the DPS should be UNTOUCHED in both departments.

I'd rather have the developers surprise us with a wider weapon choice in terms of future epic-ifications for TWF'ers to seek after something as THF'ers do for the ESOS. That, I believe would be a funner and less aggressive approach to work on any existing dps gaps between the two styles.

IDK...I won't go too far into another tinfoil hat theory...but part of this reeks to me of WB wanting a more streamlined version to get more mainstream MMO players in the game.

As much as this game has been "dumbed down", it is still more complex than a lot of people can handle, they may want to remodel into something people can grasp in a matter of weeks or a couple months instead of years.

I've been playing this game for 3+ years and there are still times when I find out something new or I didn't realize before and just think to myself...."what a noob".....while some people may find this good, I am sure it frustrates many and scares off a lot of potential customers.

One of the biggest complexities in this game is building a character properly, if they can make Pure Classes more appealing to play it will be less complicated as well, this nerf goes a long way to persuade people to not multi-class anymore

[Cetus]

IDK...I won't go too far into another tinfoil hat theory...but part of this reeks to me of WB wanting a more streamlined version to get more mainstream MMO players in the game.

As much as this game has been "dumbed down", it is still more complex than a lot of people can handle, they may want to remodel into something people can grasp in a matter of weeks or a couple months instead of years.


And I'm afraid this remodeling era will take place at the expense of veterans who are denting their keyboards in trying to make their voice heard on behalf of these changes.

I just think its too aggressive and creating a huge "holy sh*t factor" amongst the devoted playerbase. Mainstream MMO players don't give a squat about the mechanics behind most aspects of this game like we do. Becomes a quality vs quantity war (when money is involved, quality is given two squirts a pop).

[FluffyCalico]

this nerf goes a long way to persuade people to not multi-class anymore

How does nerfing the Capstone for Kensai help persuade them to not multiclass?

If fact it encourages them to multi-class.

[Pfold]

We could make it easy on them. We could just connect via dialup so that their hardware could keep up. =)

[Meetch1972]

One of the traditional methods for speeding up random number generation is pre-generation.

Say mapping 5 x 1d6 to 5d6 pre-generated random number.

Let's expand this one step further for the DPS lag issue. Considering how much memory it takes to store these things it may prove to be an option?? It's an old concept, one I resorted to once on a system that only needed ballpark accuracy, but needed to do some interesting trigonometric calculations and didn't have decimal point arithmetic available to it. Doing the full math was beyond question due to limited CPU cycles available. In the case of applying it to random number generation I don't see how it would alter the end result.

If the internal random number generator is really doing random(6) + random(6) + random(6) for 3d6, you could possibly use... *drum roll* a bunch of lookup tables! If you want a statistically equivalent method to simulate Xd6 (up to 5x or 6x, this will work) Simple mechanism: 1d6 is straightforward. 2d6 would use a lookup table with 36 combination (2,3,3,4,4,4,5,5,5,5,6,6,6,6,6,7,7,7,7,7,7,8,8,8,8 ,8,9,9,9,9,10,10,10,10,11,11,12) (or 1+1,1+2,2+1,1+3,2+2,3+1 etc).

Then access that lookup table with a single random(36) index on it - this time I "rolled a 3", which causes a lookup on the third element in the array, or that second three. Would it be faster? That's up to the developers and the pre-existing behind-the-scenes code. The array would grow to 216 elements for 3d6, over 1296 for 4d6, an array of a whole 7776 bytes for 5d6 and so on. But as I understand a single random lookup of arbitrary size indexing a static array could be far more efficient than 2 or more random(6) operations. You'll get the statistical equivalence with a single random() call. Of course you'll need to allow for all the major combos, but if you limited to 5d6 then statistically adding a pair of 5d6 lookups would do the trick and give statistically equivalent results. Does this make sense? Plus some d4, d8, d10, d12, and maybe even d20 multiples as appropriate could all take the load off the random number generator.

Of course, I don't even know what platforms DDO runs on (but I don't have to care, do I!) Can I have a gold star for nerdiness now please?

[Meetch1972]

If the internal random number generator is really doing random(6) + random(6) + random(6) for 3d6, you could possibly use... *drum roll* a bunch of lookup tables! If you want a statistically equivalent method to simulate Xd6 (up to 5x or 6x, this will work) Simple mechanism: 1d6 is straightforward. 2d6 would use a lookup table with 36 combination (2,3,3,4,4,4,5,5,5,5,6,6,6,6,6,7,7,7,7,7,7,8,8,8,8 ,8,9,9,9,9,10,10,10,10,11,11,12) (or 1+1,1+2,2+1,1+3,2+2,3+1 etc).

Then access that lookup table with a single random(36) index on it - this time I "rolled a 3", which causes a lookup on the third element in the array, or that second three. Would it be faster? That's up to the developers and the pre-existing behind-the-scenes code. The array would grow to 216 elements for 3d6, over 1296 for 4d6, an array of a whole 7776 bytes for 5d6 and so on. But as I understand a single random lookup of arbitrary size indexing a static array could be far more efficient than 2 or more random(6) operations. You'll get the statistical equivalence with a single random() call. Of course you'll need to allow for all the major combos, but if you limited to 5d6 then statistically adding a pair of 5d6 lookups would do the trick and give statistically equivalent results. Does this make sense? Plus some d4, d8, d10, d12, and maybe even d20 multiples as appropriate could all take the load off the random number generator.

Yes I know, quoting myself here - it's a sin etc, but I got to thinking how this could be expanded to rolling to-hit for both the primary and off-hand. Simple: "roll" a d20*20 - or a d400. Then work with mod(20) for the primary hand and /20 for the off-hand or such. Display both numbers, with 1 calculation. Statistically equivalent, with half the randomised function calls.

Again, apologies for being myself!

[FluffyCalico]

Simple: "roll" a d20*20 - or a d400. ... Statistically equivalent, with half the randomised function calls.

Again, apologies for being myself!

20d20 is NOT 1d400 not even close. 2d6 is not 1d12. In fact 2d6 is what 1d12 upgrades to in some cases!

IE 20d20 average roll is 210. 1d400 average roll is 200.5 Please explain how an average of 210 and average of 200.5 are statistically the same?

[Razcar]

because presumably Eladrin has thought that twf has been out of balance (as evidenced by the large number of twf builds in the game - remember eSoS is an anomaly so cannot be used as evidence that thf doesn't need a relative buff), and Eladrin thought that if he's going to go to the effort to recode the off hand combat mechanics to reduce lag, he might as well also examine the power of two weapon fighting and try to rebalance to match the information he presumably has available to him (more than we do).

Thatr's cool. If he will "examine" the gains of TWF, he should of course examine the costs as well.

After this nerf I expect that for every one-handed GS weapon you craft, you get another for free. Make TWF have the same ability pre-requisite as THF = none. Make kopesh a martial weapon. And make TWF give no minus to hit. Since he wants them to have the same DPS, they should have the same costs. Then it will only be cosmetic.

Or how about this, make THF much cheaper than TWF but grant higher DPS against multiple opponents and lower against a single target. Oh, that is how it is working now. My bad.

[Natashaelle]

Let's expand this one step further for the DPS lag issue. Considering how much memory it takes to store these things it may prove to be an option?? It's an old concept, one I resorted to once on a system that only needed ballpark accuracy, but needed to do some interesting trigonometric calculations and didn't have decimal point arithmetic available to it. Doing the full math was beyond question due to limited CPU cycles available. In the case of applying it to random number generation I don't see how it would alter the end result.

If the internal random number generator is really doing random(6) + random(6) + random(6) for 3d6, you could possibly use... *drum roll* a bunch of lookup tables! If you want a statistically equivalent method to simulate Xd6 (up to 5x or 6x, this will work) Simple mechanism: 1d6 is straightforward. 2d6 would use a lookup table with 36 combination (2,3,3,4,4,4,5,5,5,5,6,6,6,6,6,7,7,7,7,7,7,8,8,8,8 ,8,9,9,9,9,10,10,10,10,11,11,12) (or 1+1,1+2,2+1,1+3,2+2,3+1 etc).

The DPS lag is not, as far as I can see, being caused by arithmetics functions misbehaving (these are extremely simple operations btw), but by internet networking issues where all the computers involved in managing a game instance find themselves unable to despatch all the data quickly enough to all of the rigs in the network.

[Razcar]

But just because the power of rogues is being reduced now because of this change doesn't mean that they might not be buffed in the future. Of course if the form of that buff is through epic traps of some kind, not every player will like that kind of gameplay.
I'm sorry, but that is complete hogwash. Rogues should take getting this nerf hitting them the worst of all classes with a smile and a "hope we can get something down the road"? We should not be playing our rogues for a couple of years until the devs get around to throwing us a bone, that's what you are saying. What a complete and utter lack of empathy. Are you not aware of how long time game changes in DDO takes? We still have less than half of the PrE's for crying out loud.

[Amberyll]

Forget about PnP when it comes to attack sequence in DDO. We don't have rounds here. You do four attacks in a cycle before you start the animation again. When you use TWF, you add off-hand "hooks" that are not visible in the animation.

With GTWF you add a total of four hooks to the four animated attacks in the chain. With Tempest III you add a total of five hooks. So in an animation sequence on your character you would do four visible animations, but nine actual attacks.

I was not following the animations, I was following any hit or miss text, for several minutes. I did not see 9, but did see 7 per cycle.

[Razcar]

I was not following the animations, I was following any hit or miss text, for several minutes. I did not see 9, but did see 7 per cycle.
Go to Ataraxia's Haven, find a Scrag (blue trolls). Take it down to 0 HP with a weapon without fire or acid. Do something non-attacky like cast a barkskin, so you get a start point in your combat log. Then you can hit the Scrag four times and count the attacks in your combat log. The Scrag won't die.

How I described it in my first answer to you is how it works. Or worked up to Update 5 to be exact.

[argentstar]

This feels like Dungeon Alert all over again.

Why is it that dps lag seems to be worse on some days than others? Could it be that server load is as much an issue as is the number of attacks?

Maybe invest in hardware rather than butcher the combat system?

At the very least address one issue at a time. Do not couple performance adjustments with balancing TWF.

Bravo! Well said.

From my experience, it has always been the load on the servers that causes lag. Why not increase the number of servers? Yes, this would mean a fairly large financial investment, but so will the man power to implement this change (and the other inevitable changes that will have to be implemented to correct the original implementation problems ... yes, those problems always show up ... always) and it has always been and always will be a fact that, over the long run, capitol investment is always cheaper than human resources costs. From a purely business standpoint, this idea makes much more sense.

[Meetch1972]

20d20 is NOT 1d400 not even close. 2d6 is not 1d12. In fact 2d6 is what 1d12 upgrades to in some cases!

IE 20d20 average roll is 210. 1d400 average roll is 200.5 Please explain how an average of 210 and average of 200.5 are statistically the same?

I never said it was a d400 or a 20d20, I said using a single random(400) call you could get 2 independent d20 rolls.

Divide the result by 20 to get the first d20 roll, and perform a modulus 20 to get the second result. Please read wot I said carefully. Heck, you could cache a bunch of d20 rolls by performing a series of 20^n random calls and effectively get n d20 rolls through proper application of modulus and recursed division calls. Don't want to go above 2-byte integer? You can go as high as 32 million -> 20^5 = 3.2 million, which is nothing for an integer - 20^6 is too high (maybe). Then you get 5 d20 results:
1. Get mod(20) of the number - and you'll need to add 1 because the mod will return 0-19 -> there's your first d20.
2. Divide the number by 20, truncating any remainder.
3. Repeat up to 4 more times before fetching another random(3.2 million).

The "miracle" of 5 d20 rolls in a row is still 1 in 3.2 million, as is the absolute failure of 5 1's in a row.

If that random(3.2 million) was 0, you'd get 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 - if it was 1-19, you'd get 2-20, 1, 1, 1, 1 - if it was 20 you'd get 1, 2, 1, 1, 1 and so on.

If I wanted to perform a 20d20, I'd perform four 5d20 "fetches" - which could use the above, or a bigger lookup version of the table I described previously and below.

It just requires a caching mechanism. Not all that hard for an experienced coder to manage.

On the flip-side, if you translate a random(36) to a lookup table with appropriately weighted values as I originally outlined (remember, 2,3,3,4,4,4,5,5,5,5 etc?), you will get the same statistical result (the average is 7, there is a 1 in 36 chance of getting a 2 or a 12 out of it, etc). There are 36 combinations, and the array that random call would refer to would contain the same distribution of all the end results. It's a simple concept when you think about it... or again you could fetch a random(6^n). Populating a set of arrays to suit that is generally a trifling matter: for index1 in 1..20 { for index2 in 1..20 { for index3 in 1..20 ... array[n++]=index1+index2*20+index3*400 }}} . That'll populate yer 8000 element array.

Ciao!

[Meetch1972]

Bravo! Well said.

From my experience, it has always been the load on the servers that causes lag. Why not increase the number of servers? Yes, this would mean a fairly large financial investment, but so will the man power to implement this change (and the other inevitable changes that will have to be implemented to correct the original implementation problems ... yes, those problems always show up ... always) and it has always been and always will be a fact that, over the long run, capitol investment is always cheaper than human resources costs. From a purely business standpoint, this idea makes much more sense.

This is my main concern - the hardware resources should not have to suffer from the complexity of the system, but if at all possible the system should not have to change because of a hardware resource issue. The balance as it stands has long been accepted by many, and cutting one to make the other happy is something I would expect to be avoided at all costs. Only the devs will know how many avenues have been explored, but I can't help but feel that something's been overlooked despite best efforts? Can devices like Cisco's WAAS help? (There are others, but I know them not). For unencrypted traffic they can offer significant amounts of time-saving, wire-speed, on-the-wire compression to farther out points, but then the infrastructure must be out there a bit closer to the clients. Again, I have no idea what's already being used, but I know that network "de-duplication" technologies do work against congestion problems to a point. More boxen would probably help too, of course.

[Brannigan]

its not an excuse, the change is a fix to lag and a nerf
tolero even said that they find twf overpowered and need to balance it

He also said ESOS is overpowered, but there not doing anything about that, also this nerf puts THF infront of TWF on dps not to mention the number of feats you dont need to sacrifice for THF or stat dump in Dex, someone in Turbine loves thier THF barb if you ask me, it's a nerf and not even a balanced attempt to level it with THF in either feats needed or dps.

On top of that they would have to introduce STWF (which without really hampers TWF and it's not certain it's coming), and even then it will cost an extra feat to be able to get 100 /100 (main and off hand) and the extra stat dump into Dex.

One thing for certain is it srews rogues totally and alot of other builds, more than any previous nerf, which means more people will be respeccing / re grinding, purchasing more Greater and True hearts oh and probably the alignment items that are coming to move away from certain builds.

That is exactly what Turbine want players doing as it brings in more revenue on a rotation, and dont tell me they haven't considered that $ side of the impact this nerf will have.

And as for us poor EU players that dont even have the shop it's a re-grind again, made worse by the low population for grouping and unless your with an established group or guild being able to Epic quest grind.

This is a nerf that still wont balance combat and imo is aimed to hit the largest group of character builds squarely in the pocket and force them to spend more money in the shop.

Poor move Turbine for the players, but good for your bank account.

[vVAnjilaVv]

How does nerfing the Capstone for Kensai help persuade them to not multiclass?

If fact it encourages them to multi-class.

Actually I was more referring to the hit many multi-class TWF builds are going to take.

[Therilith]

What would be the problem with implementing the doublestrike feature for TWF'ers exclusively and adding extra perks or percentages to bring the dps back up to an unchanged level. That way the dps is unchanged, the physical detection is as if they were a two hander, and THF'ers remain untouched.

The fact that it wouldn't nerf TWFers, which is sort of the point of this change?


Noone ever complained about TWF being overpowered

Eladrin did.
It's in the OP, which I assume you've read.

[Pyromaniac]

Doh!

So just pretending to fix the lag then. ;)

Correct, just like pushing in DA (which didn't fix the lag), this nerf to DPS isn't going to do anything to fix the lag.

I wonder if the monthly subscription rate/turbine point costs will rise at some point 'to fix the lag'? I also hear generating epic tokens creates lag, so we're going to fragments :)

Here's some other potential sources of lag that should be on the chopping block or changed (and yes for the humor impaired, I'm kidding sort of):
-Hirelings
-More than 1 party member in a group
-Have a lineup for quests, with advertising while waiting in line
-Give all enemies one damage number roll (and definitely nerf the DQ's multiweapon fighting)
-Ingame music and sound
-Graphics above a stick figure level
-The banks
-Make all quests/outdoor areas in a 10 foot by 10 foot room with 8 feet high ceilings
-Forums (though keep the ads only)
-Get rid of trash mobs, boss fight only in each quest
-Level cap back to 10, with double reincarnate XP being the new original character XP
-In game voice chat
-Ability to move your character in any direction freely

Its great seeing gaming ads on the DDO website, gives me some alternatives to play when this trashes most of my remaining characters. No lesser token+20/full greensteel deconstruction = no money for DDO and I'll play one of those games they're advertising to me at the moment. Test Drive Unlimited 2 does look good from the ads above.

[Salvonen]

So if I understand this correctly a level 6 ranger tempest 1 will have offhand proc 90% which will be 10% higher than a lvl 20 monk in wind stance 4?

And I thought my pure monk DPS was gimped before....now I'll have to go down dueling a TR lvl 13 ranger with his greensteel weapons.

Truly you should go back and re-write the other posts where you said a 'well-equipped well-played monk can be an exceptionally powerful character' really? powerful as in...what? well equipped with every single raid loot item there is? and still end up gimped dps.

I do not post often and typically support the changes made in DDO...this will certainly push monks to splash class only status. There will be no reason to play pure monk.

Personally I think the pure monk should be the highest with respect to double-strike and off hand proc (of course I am biased), as rangers have the alternate form of dps of actually ranging most all have the many shot. Alternately rangers have the option of respeccing to becoming a THF or archer which is not available to monks. Monks are TWF by their very class with no option whatsoever (except staves of course) are you seriously suggesting that monks go out and respec their toons to become THF staff wielders in order to reduce lag?

Skeptical to say the least and potentially a game end for me -> premium with turbine and came back VIP now and likely free then gone.

[Borror0]

/snip
Good post. Gave you positive rep for it. You make the mistake of not assuming STWF in your numbers, which in result causes you to spread misinformation (as A_D later pointed out), but it does a good job of demonstrating the value of the change if STWF isn't added (and also does good job showing why STWF shouldn't be added).

[Razcar]

Alternately rangers have the option of respeccing to becoming a THF or archer which is not available to monks. Monks are TWF by their very class with no option whatsoever (except staves of course) are you seriously suggesting that monks go out and respec their toons to become THF staff wielders in order to reduce lag?
THF ranger? That sounds like a sign of the apocalypse... ;)

[Brannigan]

This is interesting;


No exaggeration. I took the actual numbers, then rounded to the nearest tenth of a percent. Which I actually did wrong, it's -16.5%, not -16.4%.

As for the numbers on the DPS nerf, it actually doesn't matter what numbers you plug into the equation. The nerf is not attack damage based but attack swing based. In other words you'll lose the same xx.x% regardless of if you swing for 10 a pop or 100. The ONLY point of variance your stats made is whether your Strength modifier is even or odd since an even Str modifier gives you exactly 1.5x Str between your two weapons, but an odd one gives a mainhand full Str and an offhand equal to that number - 1 then divided by 2.

Ex: 22 Str: +6/+3. 24 Str: +7/+3. 26 Str: +8/+4.

So they might be off by one or two tenths of a percentile depending on character and due to rounding errors. That's a very reasonable margin for error.

I also made the comparison to both first nerf numbers and second nerf numbers. This was also intentional, both to show that the new numbers don't really soften the nerf all that much, and to dispel the common myth that this nerfs Rangers the least (instead of the most, which it actually does).

Lastly, making a big deal out of 10-15% (which is actually more like 15-25%) is entirely justified since it makes a far bigger difference than you'd think. It's the difference between top tier DPS and mid tier DPS that also bring in other things. It's the difference between full raid gear and newbie gear (which another of my examples demonstrated). And it is many times more than people grind for months to gain, in effect also being expressed as negative years of progress.

MMOs, like D&D itself are very meritocratic. And they often emphasize the darker side of meritocracy - that is to say, those who cannot prove their worth on their own merits have no place. And 'having no place' means classes not accepted into groups, meaning players of those classes can't play. DDO was fairly good about this - Rogues and Rangers, Monks, and Arcane Casters were sometimes discriminated against because of bad members of these classes but the good ones had little trouble once it was established that they were in fact good. However a nerf of this magnitude flat out invalidates two weapon fighters, as a whole. And the only good news about that is the 'make it like PnP' people got what they wanted - THF as the only valid melee style. But at what cost?


With all that said, here's the numbers anyways:


Main hand attacks: Equal to BAB - 1, max 4. Since you max out at BAB 3, and anyone who has been playing for a few weeks or has a few dollars can start at level 4 (and have a BAB of at least 3) this is a quite irrelevant point. I only am mentioning it for the sake of completeness.
Off hand attacks: Equal to number of TWF feats + 1.

So any character of any class who has all three TWF feats has 4 mainhand, and 4 offhand attacks.

This can be expressed as: 100%/100%.

A Tempest in particular gains two additional benefits.

1: Tempest 1 grants +10% attack speed.
2: Tempest 3 grants one additional offhand attack.

This can be expressed as: 110%/137.5%.

Now, the tempest I'm playing right now has these numbers with the typical buff availability. They'll vary depending on short term buff usage but again this is irrelevant. It's also only the first number damage, since factoring the kickers is also irrelevant.

Mainhand: 1d10+45, average 50.5.
Offhand: 1d10+39, average 44.5.

Yes, I am aware I'm missing a few items. That's not the point.

So currently I'm looking at these numbers:

50.5 * 1.1 * 4 = 222.2.
44.5 * 1.375 * 4 = 244.75.

222.2 + 244.75 = 466.95 damage per attack sequence not counting weapon kickers, crits, whatever. Again, those are irrelevant to this example.

With the first nerf they would look like this:

50.5 * 1 * 4 = 202.
44.5 * 0.85 * 4 = 151.3.

202 + 151.3 = 353.3 damage per attack sequence not counting weapon kickers, crits, whatever. Again, those are irrelevant to this example.

353.3 is exactly 75.6612056965413855873219830817% of 466.95. A rather large downgrade to be certain.

With the second nerf they would look like this:

50.5 * 1.05 * 4 = 212.1.
44.5 * 1 * 4 = 178.

212.1 + 178 = 390.1 damage per attack sequence not counting weapon kickers, crits, whatever. Again, those are irrelevant to this example.

390.1 is exactly 83.542135132241139308277117464397% of 466.95. Not as steep, but still a very major downgrade.

Even with the revised nerf, it's a major hit for EVERYONE. Not just powergamers. Remember this applies at all stages of the game, and in many cases applies in a harsher manner at lower levels. Even quests like the one where all you do is break boxes go faster when you swing faster. So it's fair to say you'd be gimped at the whole game, even at smashing crates.

To illustrate I compared weapons so you can see how bad a hit it is right now.

So here's the math on that:

With Min 2s:

Mainhand: 50.5.
Offhand: 44.5.

Add in the following to each:

Holy: 2-12, average 7.
Acid Burst: 1-6, average 3.5 + 2-20, average 11 on a critical, which happens 20% of the time so 2.2 weighted average.
Acid Blast: 4-24, average 14 on a natural 20, which happens 5% of the time so 0.7 weighted average. Mainhand only.
Slicing: 1-4, average 2.5.

For a total of +15.9 main hand and +15.2 off hand, giving...

Mainhand: 66.4.
Offhand: 59.7.

With completely ordinary +5 weapons:

Mainhand: 50.5.
Offhand: 44.5.

And here are the modifiers on those:

Is not Greensteel: Smaller damage die (1-8 instead of 1-10), amounting to -1 average damage.

This gives us...

Mainhand: 49.5.
Offhand: 43.5.

Now plug both into the calcs.

With Min 2s:

66.4 * 1.1 * 4 = 292.16.
59.7 * 1.375 * 4 = 328.35.

292.16 + 328.35 = 620.51 damage per attack sequence, not counting crits but now counting weapon kickers because they ARE relevant.

With plain old +5 weapons:

49.5 * 1.1 * 4 = 217.8.
43.5 * 1.375 * 4 = 239.25.

217.8 + 239.25 = 457.05 damage per attack sequence, not counting crits but now counting weapon kickers because they ARE relevant.

457.05 is about 73.657% of 620.51. You want that accurate beyond three decimal places, you get a calculator. I'm tired of typing all that.

73.657% is 'almost' 75.661%.

Now, my original statement on the subject.


Do you have a Tempest with a pair of Min 2s? Use them against a mob that is evil aligned with 0 acid resistance and no DR. Now, take off your Greensteel. Attack the same mob with plain +5 weapons. That is almost the exact difference between your effectiveness now and your effectiveness with the same weapon after the original nerf.


As switching from the Greensteel you have grinded for months to a plain +5 weapon almost models the DPS downgrade of the Greensteel you have grinded for months pre nerf and the same weapons you have grinded for months post first nerf, that statement was true. And anyone, and everyone should be very scared and offended to have the uber weapons they put months into reduced to vendor trash levels. ESPECIALLY the non power gamers, because getting a dual shard (or two!) is a lot harder when you play in a non power gaming manner.

Anyone, and everyone WAS very scared and offended. This is why Eladrin revised the nerf after about 750 posts of nerd rage.

So here's the comparison there:

Same numbers on the Greensteel.

With Min 2s:

Mainhand: 66.4.
Offhand: 59.7.

66.4 * 1.1 * 4 = 292.16.
59.7 * 1.375 * 4 = 328.35.

292.16 + 328.35 = 620.51 damage per attack sequence, not counting crits but now counting weapon kickers because they ARE relevant.

For the comparison weapon (+5 Holy) take the last set of numbers:

Mainhand: 49.5.
Offhand: 43.5.

And add to each:

Holy: 2-12, average 7.

Which gives us:

Mainhand: 56.5.
Offhand: 50.5.

Now run the calcs again.

56.5 * 1.1 * 4 = 248.6.
50.5 * 1.375 * 4 = 277.75.

248.6 + 277.75 = 526.35.

526.35 is about 84.825% of 620.51. You want that accurate beyond three decimal places, you get a calculator. I'm tired of typing all that.

84.825% is 'about' 83.542%.

My original statement on the subject again.

The revised nerf is tamer. To get an idea of how much that will nuke your DPS fight the same mob with Min 2s and then plain +5 Holy weapons. Still a huge difference

As switching from the Greensteel you have grinded for months to a plain +5 Holy weapon almost models the DPS downgrade of the Greensteel you have grinded for months pre nerf and the same weapons you have grinded for months post first nerf, that statement was true. And anyone, and everyone should be very scared and offended to have the uber weapons they put months into reduced to lowbie weapon levels. ESPECIALLY the non power gamers, because getting a dual shard (or two!) is a lot harder when you play in a non power gaming manner.

And that's what you have to look at now, post nerf. As much damage with the weapons you grinded for for months as you could get RIGHT NOW with subpar level 12 lootgen weapons. Or you could just take the dev hints they've been throwing out for months and roll a THF Fighter or Barbarian like everyone else.

Of course despite the fact there have been far more than an additional 750ish posts of nerd rage about it, it has not been revised a second time. This leads me to believe that it will not be revised, and combined with the smokescreen tactics and timing I am deeply suspicious of their motives in the matter.

[~Lleo]

Two Questions come to my mind when I'm reading all of this:

1) The DPS lag issue is supposed to be mostly in the high level raids. As near as I can figure with the proposed changes, by the time a character is ready for these high level raids they'll already have the various feats/enhancements/stances/etc... and be back to 100% or near 100% proc on the off hand anyway. So how is this helping? Or is it the idea that by making it harder on us at lower levels we'll be less likely to end up TWF'ers at the higher levels and thus there will be fewer of us.

2) Another concern I have is in regards to rogues, particularly at lower levels. Rogues (again, keep in mind I'm specifically talking about lower levels) are very limited in both the type/quality of armor and weapons short of spending extra feats or multiclassing obviously. Being limited to light armor and only d6 weapons along with no spells makes them a very squishy character, especially if trying to solo and thus severely limiting their backstab. TWF is a survival trait for many rogues but with the new system at lower levels you've almost eliminated it. In trying to address an issue that's affecting high level characters you're most hurting the low levels. Perhaps some sort of compensation is in order for Rogues. It seems you're thinking about the Tempest Rangers and the Monks and forgetting anyone else in regards to the TWF change. The original PnP game allowed Dex to offer some penalty alleviation in addition to the TWF feats, what about implementing something along those lines. Since Rogues tend to have high Dexterities anyway this would help.

[Borror0]

Until they introduce Epic Levels.. STWF should be left out of the game its a lvl 21 Feat.
STWF does not exist. It's a made up feat by Turbine. You are thinking about Perfect Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Perfect_Two-Weapon_Fighting) which requires a character level of 21 and a Dexterity of 25. While it does not invalidate the position that STWF should not be added, it is false to say STWF is an epic feat.

Although I will say that posting this in a Friday before a long weekend seems shortsighted.
QFT. It would have been better to post this on Tuesday.

Well, S&B also needs improvements to its DPS output, since the game is so heavily skewed in that direction, and because if you don't have aggro, having a shield out tends to be fairly pointless.
Bring your line of thinking a bit further and you will realize why increasing S&B's DPS is unnecessary. Like you said, unless you are getting hit in some ways, wearing a shield is detrimental because you have lower DPS and get nothing back in return. In this most cases, it means wearing a shield is pointless unless you have aggro and what S&B offers is reducing the total damage taken by the party. Unlike DPS builds, how much damage S&B builds do is the least important aspect of their effectiveness. It is more important to significantly reduce the damage taken by the party and gaining the aggro than to deal more DPS, for them.

That is not to say that it wouldn't be helpful to improve their DPS. It might be, but it's a much lesser priority than giving them proper aggro tools, making sure that their Armor Class do matter and ensuring that hostile mages don't kick their ass.

[Razcar]

Two Questions come to my mind when I'm reading all of this:

1) The DPS lag issue is supposed to be mostly in the high level raids. As near as I can figure with the proposed changes, by the time a character is ready for these high level raids they'll already have the various feats/enhancements/stances/etc... and be back to 100% or near 100% proc on the off hand anyway. So how is this helping? Or is it the idea that by making it harder on us at lower levels we'll be less likely to end up TWF'ers at the higher levels and thus there will be fewer of us.
It is not related. Like many others you are confusing two things:

1. The TWF nerf
2. The behind-the-scenes change to TWF that is supposed to reduce lag.

These two are COMPLETELY separate. They could do one but not the other. But now they are doing both.

1. The TWF nerf lowers DPS for many builds, unless you take a new proposed feat, Superior TWF. Builds that will not be able to take this feat are just screwed, plain and
simple.

2. The lag reduction concerns how the game knows if the target is in range or not for all the "extra" attacks a TWF:er gets. This will be changed. This is supposed to reduce lag. And has nothing to do with point 1, the nerf.

[FluffyCalico]

STWF does not exist. It's a made up feat by Turbine. You are thinking about Perfect Two Weapon Fighting (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Perfect_Two-Weapon_Fighting) which requires a character level of 21 and a Dexterity of 25. While it does not invalidate the position that STWF should not be added, it is false to say STWF is an epic feat.

.

1) STWF did exist in DnD the SRD until about a year ago with dex of 19 required in 1 reference and 23 in another and 25 in another. This is no way changes that STWF has been a part of DND for a long time. It vanished shortly after 4.0 was released and then the never ever heard of before ptwf showed up. All they did was rename it to match up with 4.0 in all the old SRDs.

2) Also STWF was in the game feat list at release you just could not take it because the cap was 10. And it required DEX of 19 which was correct for 1 of the 3 references. The others were 23 and 25

3) STWF is already in the game its just only available to rangers which is stupid.

[Borror0]

STWF did exist in DnD the SRD until about a year ago with dex of 19 required in 1 reference and 23 in another and 25 in another. This is no way changes that STWF has been a part of DND for a long time. It vanished shortly after 4.0 was released and then the never ever heard of before ptwf showed up. All they did was rename it to match up with 4.0 in all the old SRDs.
Both my Epic Level Handbook, printed in July 2002, and the history of the wiki article I linked to you, which goes all the way back to April 2006, says you're wrong.

STWF is already in the game its just only available to rangers which is stupid.
Tempest rangers have an ability which is the same as what was intended for STWF. I have no idea why that would be "stupid."

[Angelus_dead]

you will realize why increasing S&B's DPS is unnecessary. Like you said, unless you are getting hit in some ways, wearing a shield is detrimental because you have lower DPS and get nothing back in return. In this most cases, it means wearing a shield is pointless unless you have aggro and what S&B offers is reducing the total damage taken by the party. Unlike DPS builds, how much damage S&B builds do is the least important aspect of their effectiveness. It is more important to significantly reduce the damage taken by the party and gaining the aggro than to deal more DPS, for them.
Increasing the DPS of S&B specialists is very necessary, because the amount by which their other features can be boosted is limited. That is, if the devs give S&B builds enough personal defense and "aggro tools" to compensate for that much lower DPS, those abilities will have to be so strong that they probably change the gameplay too much and make it less fun for some teammates.

It isn't too much fun for DPS-spec players to just butcher through piles of monsters who won't do anything to fight back against them. That already happens sometimes in dungeons where an intimitank is highly effective. Yes, some games are based all around that principle, but DDO should try to do better.

Suppose that Improved Shield Bash granted a toggleable 50% offhand rate with the shield (subject to BAB limits). That would be a good increase to DPS, so not as much party defense is needed to justify including the character in the team.

And note that aggro tools are just one example of how a character can protect his teammates. It's possible and sometimes helpful to give them abilities which don't change who the monsters attack. For example, consider a feature where the monster you attack gets a 4-second debuff causing it to treat whoever he attacks as having some portion of your own AC/DR defenses...

[Angelus_dead]

1. The TWF nerf lowers DPS for many builds, unless you take a new proposed feat, Superior TWF.
Most characters who do get STWF still come out with a little lower DPS, as their 10% alacrity bonuses change into 10% doublestrike (which does not benefit the offhand).

[FluffyCalico]

Tempest rangers have an ability which is the same as what was intended for STWF. I have no idea why that would be "stupid."

Which part the part where they get all the ranged feats and melee feats for free which they should not or the part where they get a higher melee attack rate for the first 19 levels than a fighter who specializes in melee. Choose either broken part. And the stupid part I was referring to was them being granted yet another feat for free than has nothing to do with their class that no other class is even allowed to take. To sum up rangers have nothing in this game to do with rangers in DnD they are completely broken in 10 different ways right down to their spells like resist energy.

[Bloodhaven]

1) Casters used to DPS so they have monsters 100X the hp and made greensteel weapons.
2) People use to run past trash mobs so they gave us DA
3) People used to make AC toons so they gave us Glancing blows
4) People used to love min 2 so they nerfed it
5) Casters use to debuff and finger of death stuff so they gave everything that matters blanket immunities
6) People used to use w/p so they broke it
7) People used to take the 2hf feats so they are breaking them now
8) People used to make 2wf so they are nerfing them

Did I miss anything?

you forgot the great evasion nerf of 2008

[FluffyCalico]

Most characters who do get STWF still come out with a little lower DPS, as their 10% alacrity bonuses change into 10% doublestrike (which does not benefit the offhand).

Speaking of which why are they making the capstone benifit 2hf more than twf? Should the cap stone not be a 10% DPS buff for both instead of 10% for 1 of them and what 6-7% for the other? Broken

[FluffyCalico]

you forgot the great evasion correction of 2008

fixed that

[Angelus_dead]

Speaking of which why are they making the capstone benifit 2hf more than twf? Should the cap stone not be a 10% DPS buff for both instead of 10% for 1 of them and what 6-7% for the other? Broken
Limiting doublestrike to mainhand attacks is evidently an intentional part of the TWF nerf, which was motivated by the idea that TWF currently is too damaging.

[FluffyCalico]

Limiting doublestrike to mainhand attacks is evidently an intentional part of the TWF nerf, which was motivated by the idea that TWF currently is too damaging.

What they are going to get is 20000 twf that are not going to regrind 2hf weapons that leave the game. If that is their goal they are right on track.

[Borror0]

And the stupid part I was referring to was them being granted yet another feat for free than has nothing to do with their class that no other class is even allowed to take.
STWF-like ability was granted by Tempest III, which is a prestige enhancement inspired by the Tempest prestige class. The tempest prestige class has an ability called Supreme Two Weapon Fighting which, alike the bonus granted by Tempest III, gives "an additional attack with her off-hand weapon when she is wearing light armor or no armor."

If fidelity to PnP is your problem, there is no problem with Tempest III granting a STWF-like ability.

[Meetch1972]

Proposed Numbers:
A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
The Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +15% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
The Greater Two Weapon Fighting feat grants a +10% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
Monk Air stances now grant a +5%/+10%/+15%/+20% insight bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (Enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
Ranger Tempest now grants a +10%/+20%/+30% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed or granting additional off-hand attacks.
Monk Air Stance and Ranger Tempest now stack with each other for these purposes.
Attacks with two handed weapons while moving no longer perform Glancing Blows.


Hmmm... now that I read it again, is it likely the offset to this would be the lack of to-hit penalty? Ie if I understand the system as it stands:
* Everyone can wield 1 weapon. With TWF you suffer a penalty on each hand.
* TWF skills reduce your to-hit penalty for each hand - depending on skill level - and
* The chance to proc off-hand attacks is 100%
* TWFers get no glancing blows.

But with the new system perhaps it could be more like:
* Everyone can wield 1 weapon.
* Most classes can wield 2 weapons, with a more or less static to-hit bonus based on stats, and TWF skills hardly affect the chance to hit if you proc with the off-hand, but
* Your proc off-hand chance may typically be less than 100% (but you are still more likely to hit when you proc because your to-hit is higher).
* It's possible some 1-h weapons like the dwarven axe will result in glancing blows, potentially even carrying the proc further - so perhaps you may proc more often in total (or the same), but somewhat less likely on the intended target.

The one downside for the TWFs is that off-hand vorpal proc is only going to happen proc that percentage directly proportional to the current (100%) off-hand proc chance when you roll a 20. (oversimplified, maybe, but you get the picture).

As for the maths on that, not my forte. Is this right, or how wrong are my assumptions? 8-) I play a pally by preference, and I don't looking forward to an all-downside solution, but something like outlined above wouldn't stop me doing the pally thang.

Go ahead, pull my logic to pieces if only to straighten out this reckoning. Ciao!

[Borror0]

Increasing the DPS of S&B specialists is very necessary, because the amount by which their other features can be boosted is limited. That is, if the devs give S&B builds enough personal defense and "aggro tools" to compensate for that much lower DPS, those abilities will have to be so strong that they probably change the gameplay too much and make it less fun for some teammates.

It isn't too much fun for DPS-spec players to just butcher through piles of monsters who won't do anything to fight back against them. That already happens sometimes in dungeons where an intimitank is highly effective. Yes, some games are based all around that principle, but DDO should try to do better.
I agree. I shouldn't have used "unnecessary" in that post, does not really represent what I meant.

My position is better represented by what I say in the second paragraph: [improving S&B's DPS is] a much lesser priority than giving them proper aggro tools, making sure that their Armor Class do matter and ensuring that hostile mages don't kick their ass.

[Vhlad]

3.5 monster manual 1 has "superior two-weapon fighting" as an ettin feat.

"An ettin fights with a morningstar or javelin in each hand. Because each of its two heads controls an arm, the ettin does not take a penalty on attack or damage rolls for attacking with two weapons."

OK. I will accept STWF if Turbine lets us have two heads.

[Therilith]

What they are going to get is 20000 twf that are not going to regrind 2hf weapons that leave the game. If that is their goal they are right on track.

I'm going to respond to that by quoting my good friend and mentor Therilith.


To all the people saying that this change sucks because you won't be able to play your TWFers: FEAR NOT!

Using my mighty brain I have come up with a solution to your problem!

"Keep playing your TWFers."


That is all.

His brilliance blisters the very soul.

[melkor1702]

3.5 monster manual 1 has "superior two-weapon fighting" as an ettin feat.

"An ettin fights with a morningstar or javelin in each hand. Because each of its two heads controls an arm, the ettin does not take a penalty on attack or damage rolls for attacking with two weapons."

OK. I will accept STWF if Turbine lets us have two heads.

You only get two heads if you live in Tasmania :p

[Beethoven]

Which part the part where they get all the ranged feats and melee feats for free which they should not or the part where they get a higher melee attack rate for the first 19 levels than a fighter who specializes in melee. Choose either broken part. And the stupid part I was referring to was them being granted yet another feat for free than has nothing to do with their class that no other class is even allowed to take. To sum up rangers have nothing in this game to do with rangers in DnD they are completely broken in 10 different ways right down to their spells like resist energy.

I am still not following.

The difference between a fighter specced for melee (ie: Kensai) and a ranger specced for the same thing (ie: Tempest) is:
Tempest gets /1/ offhand hook more resulting in a slightly superior attack speed.
Kensai gets all the benefits from Signature Weapon and Power Surge resulting in superior damage per swing.
You need to either compare class vs class (without PrE benefits on either side) or compare PrE's.

Last I checked, rangers (the class) get Two-Weapon Fighting, Bow Strength and ranged feats for free even in DnD (outside of DDO). Ranged combat is mostly useless in DDO, so to me it always made sense to include a PrE to help Rangers be a viable melee class. The only broken thing here is that they get a lot of benefits early (personally I'd have switched Tempest II with Tempest III), but that really only matters if you are overly concerned with low levels - which most people generally aren't.

I am not really sure what you think the role of a ranger should be; on mine melee is 90% of what I do. There are some (few) cases where I shoot things with an arrow. The rest of the time I buff bark. You criticize both, ranged and melee. That would leave buff bark.

Also, rangers do no get the equivalent of Stwf, it's part of the Tempest Pre. Include Stwf and what exactly would be the benefit of going Tempest? I don't even have to compare Tempest with Kensai (who get the same attack speed and higher if they take their capstone - and in addition get the full Kensaid Pre perks stacked on top of it, which is nothing to sneeze at). Alone comparing Tempest to a Ranger without Pre but Stwf:

* Tempest requires 3 minimally useful feats and 14 AP
* Stwf requires BaB (which they got), 1 feat (which they can easily fit in since they save 3 by not choosing the PrE) and a higher Dex. So, putting some more points into Dex results in having nearly all the same benefits of the entire Tempest Pre and leaves them with 2 more feats, 14 AP more and ability to choose a different PrE.

Now, as far as I am concerned that is far more stupid and broken than things currently are.

[Krag]

I'm going to respond to that by quoting my good friend and mentor Therilith.



His brilliance blisters the very soul.

Trolling much?
Yes, you can keep playing your gimp, but will you be able to join raids and contribute in a meaningful way? Will it be fun to play?

Yes, you can reduce clerics to healbots, bards and monks to buffbots, rogues to trapmonkeys. Sure they are still useful... at least in some quests, but certainly not fun anymore.

[Boromirs]

This is a big make or break decision for Turbine. Maybe the devs are like "meh we are just changing the attack rate", but it's much much more then that, if they go through with this it is demonstrating to the pbase that they will without warning/notice completely turn upside down a vast chunk of builds/invested time/money without blinking.

Maybe casters don't realize this, but this would be tantamount to making casters memorize a certain number of spells they can use each per day and not based off their mana. It is MEGA huge for meleers across the board.

They need to do this smart, they need to do this carefully. I'm starting to fear for the life of the game.

[SquelchHU]

Yes, MYDDO often bugs with permadeath characters.

Permadeath characters also often encounter the negative consequences of their chosen ruleset around level 10 or so, causing them to rarely have any experience or feedback about the game beyond well... the content available at first release, really.

If you're that scared of people knowing who you are then post screenshots of the character sheet with your name blacked out.

Of course, you know and I know the real reason you are refusing to answer this.



I personally do not think I have ran with Galactius but I am on the same server, and in the same channel.

Lol, negative rep for telling someone who clearly has little gaming experience to stay out of the discussion or at least not enter it as if he knew what he was talking about?

[Boromirs]

Read Shade's build about TWF, he clearly states...

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=133445&highlight=critical+death+frenzy

"TWF gets some nice benefits over THF like double stun, trip chances, and even triple now with the mod9.1 update. As well as more attacks per minuit resulting in good success with stat damaging weapons and vorpals. Overall DPS is a bit lower then THF at the maximum strength levels, but still extremely high."

[Borror0]

Lol, negative rep for telling someone who clearly has little gaming experience to stay out of the discussion or at least not enter it as if he knew what he was talking about?
Questioning his experience is an ad hominem. Attack the argument, not the poster.

[Therilith]

Yes, you can keep playing your gimp, but will you be able to join raids and contribute in a meaningful way? Will it be fun to play?
Are you saying that TWFers will be gimp because you have actually done the math and compared it to THF, or are you simply saying that any decrease in DPS is unacceptable to you no matter what?


This is a big make or break decision for Turbine. Maybe the devs are like "meh we are just changing the attack rate", but it's much much more then that, if they go through with this it is demonstrating to the pbase that they will without warning/notice completely turn upside down a vast chunk of builds/invested time/money without blinking.
Yeah, if only someone had created a thread detailing the changes they are considering...

[Consumer]

Read Shade's build about TWF, he clearly states...

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=133445&highlight=critical+death+frenzy

"TWF gets some nice benefits over THF like double stun, trip chances, and even triple now with the mod9.1 update. As well as more attacks per minuit resulting in good success with stat damaging weapons and vorpals. Overall DPS is a bit lower then THF at the maximum strength levels, but still extremely high."

DPS of a TWF Barb is currently loltastic, not sure what you wanted to point out there, with STWF it will still suck but will be more balanced with all the other newly sucky DPS around.

[Razcar]

you forgot the great evasion nerf of 2008
This will be the big hoochie mama of the DDO nerfs though.

A day which will live forever in infamy, when the very foundations of Stormreach shook from the dissonance of 10 000 kopeshes collectively crying out in pain! (Am I spreading it on a little too thick maybe?) :)

[SquelchHU]

Let me say what i have said many times before. I am opposed to DnD/DDO game balance, DnD is not a balanced game, it never has been from a combat spec perspective, Casters have always sat on the top the heap power wise in this game, followed by specialty combat types, like min/max two weapon fighters, in PnP a Two handed Barbarian would get his lunch ate by a duel weapon Kensai for many reasons.

Fail. In DDO TWF has merits, but in D&D it is complete and utter trash. A TWF Kensai would get mulched by a THF WIZARD. I am not kidding. Not a gish mind you, but a wizard.

[JOTMON]

A little off topic, but in the efforts to reduce overall lag and is an easy thing to change in any update....

Turn Off the Checkbox in the WHO tab on the Social Panel.

Rant explained below....

Currently the checkbox is defaulted on and is set to all classes for all levels. Now consider that every player on the server is defaulted to check for every other player coming and going from the server. I believe it is a serious waste of server resources and can be easily tested by any individual player. Login track the time while you are stuck in place waiting for everything to load. Login again and type /who wwwww . then press enter. you will see that you become active much more quickly since you are no longer collecting data on other players. I have personally noticed a difference in game and in comabt as I belive this removes data from the overall bandwith of data coming and going from the server.

I have been asking for this change for almost 2 years now and still the default is set on.

The only time I use the who tab is when I am actively looking for either a specific person, class, and usually defined within specific levels. There is no reason to have this defaulted to the on position for levels 1-20 and all classes.

Now back to the disgruntlement for all my multiclass 2WF....

[Razcar]

Fail. In DDO TWF has merits, but in D&D it is complete and utter trash. A TWF Kensai would get mulched by a THF WIZARD. I am not kidding. Not a gish mind you, but a wizard.
Yes, there's lot of strangeness in D&D 3.5 that would make this game become unplayable. That system has been so thoroughly raped by PnP powergamers (and by WotC themselves)that without extreme DM supervision and selection it is a joke.

[krud]

1) STWF did exist in DnD the SRD until about a year ago with dex of 19 required in 1 reference and 23 in another and 25 in another. This is no way changes that STWF has been a part of DND for a long time. It vanished shortly after 4.0 was released and then the never ever heard of before ptwf showed up. All they did was rename it to match up with 4.0 in all the old SRDs.

2) Also STWF was in the game feat list at release you just could not take it because the cap was 10. And it required DEX of 19 which was correct for 1 of the 3 references. The others were 23 and 25

3) STWF is already in the game its just only available to rangers which is stupid.
More justification to bump the dex prereq to make it a feat only finesse builds will get (if it is ever implemented). As long as it is not a free feat for anyone not meeting the prereqs (including rangers). Creates more balance between dex and str twf. No more "finesse builds are teh gimp". Go with str twf for higher damage/swing, dex/finesse for more attacks. As long as in the final setup twf doesn't fall behind THF.

[Aerendil]

As an aside, Eladrin's last post on Friday evening was back on page 43.

This thread is now at page 119...

I don't envy your job this morning, El :p

[SquelchHU]

Cripes, can you please STOP asking Calebro to show you his toons ?

It is becoming very tedious, and is undermining your own credibility rather than anyone else's that you expect someone's MyDDO page to be of any relevance at all to this ongoing discussion.

It is very relevant. The underlying question is "Calebro, do you actually have any high level experience with the affected characters to speak as though you do?"

And a MYDDO page showing he does in fact have one or more high level TWFers is directly and immediately relevant. If his MYDDO actually is bugged, then a picture of his character sheet would do the same thing. And he can even block the name out if he is that scared of others knowing who he is.

The fact he persistently refuses to do this clearly indicates he has no horse in this race. Which is fine, but then he needs to stop acting as if he does.

[LookingForABentoBox]

I'm not going to stick my head in the STWF fight, but regarding the change to twf feats:

Does 2-weapon-fighting still do more damage than 2-handed fighting to a significant margin? Yes
Do twf fighters still vorpal at a higher speed than 2hf? Yes
Will 6 levels of ranger still benefit 2 weapon fighting builds? Yes
If so, what's the problem?

For the record, I have a level 19 ranger/rogue with monk splash that uses 2 weapons and a level 14 paladin that uses falchions

[Consumer]

Does 2-weapon-fighting still do more damage than 2-handed fighting to a significant margin? No
Do twf fighters still vorpal at a higher speed than 2hf? Yes
Will 6 levels of ranger still benefit 2 weapon fighting builds? No

Fixed that for you.

[IronClan]

A little off topic, but in the efforts to reduce overall lag and is an easy thing to change in any update....

Turn Off the Checkbox in the WHO tab on the Social Panel.

Rant explained below....

Currently the checkbox is defaulted on and is set to all classes for all levels. Now consider that every player on the server is defaulted to check for every other player coming and going from the server. I believe it is a serious waste of server resources and can be easily tested by any individual player. Login track the time while you are stuck in place waiting for everything to load. Login again and type /who wwwww . then press enter. you will see that you become active much more quickly since you are no longer collecting data on other players. I have personally noticed a difference in game and in comabt as I belive this removes data from the overall bandwith of data coming and going from the server.

I have been asking for this change for almost 2 years now and still the default is set on.

The only time I use the who tab is when I am actively looking for either a specific person, class, and usually defined within specific levels. There is no reason to have this defaulted to the on position for levels 1-20 and all classes.

Now back to the disgruntlement for all my multiclass 2WF....

/signed +1 rep at the very least allow my choices to STICK ... Forgetting my settings every login and forcing me to load every single player on the server unless I type /who asdf and interupt it... did they hire a frozen cave man coder from 1989 to do the UI?

[Zenako]

This is a big make or break decision for Turbine. Maybe the devs are like "meh we are just changing the attack rate", but it's much much more then that, if they go through with this it is demonstrating to the pbase that they will without warning/notice completely turn upside down a vast chunk of builds/invested time/money without blinking..

um, the irony of this post in this thread is almost a bit much...:D

If we had all woken up on the first day of the next update and had this change imposed on us, then it would have been without notice. Using over the top hyperbole does not serve your arguement in the least.

Yes it will be a change. It will actually be a rather subtle change to many players, since many players are not at the levels where such things matter a lot. (Of course nor did they experience DPS related lag either.) You need a certain number of levels and feats to even get to the effects of lost hooks. To those to whom it does matter, it matters.

I am still seeing however a lot of focus on limited aspects of the change, while it appeared that El had a more sweeping vision of "the plan". This entire exercise is likely driven by some of their experience with other lag related changes that were proposed and tested on Lammania in the past. One of the reasons for changes to saving throw frequency and trying to introduce the Heroic Surge mechanic was to lower the number of active controlled mobs in each instance and therefore on the server. Pathing algorithms were discussed and the more mobs you have the quicker the burden of the algorithms grew. it was more or less exponential. Someone with 20 charmed mobs, was placing a huge load on the processor. By ensuring that it was next to impossible to get that many charmed troops you avoid those loads.

Of the various methods employed, the increased save frequency made it live (and has all but killed off Enchantment as a viable magic school in many cases), while the Heroic Surge feature did not go live as it was seen on test, as it would have killed off everything else that could control mobs (including bard songs).

[SquelchHU]

you forgot the great evasion nerf of 2008

That was a bug fix, it only amounted to -1 AC, and even if that was a character ruining thing replacing 1 level 10 with no raid loot is infinitely easier than replacing 1 to many level 20s with a great deal of raid loot. No comparison.

After all, Batman is one build out of how many?

TWF is one melee style out of two (Ranged was made irrelevant before official release, SAB expired not too long after).

Given that there are seven melee classes if you do not count the battle caster sorts and up to eleven if you do, it is very clear that anything that changes TWF will affect far more characters than anything that affects Evasion in medium or heavy armor.

It is even not so surprising that TWFers outnumber THF, since they'd do that regardless of if TWF is better, THF is better, or they had different advantages and disadvantages.

Bard: Could be THF, but Inspire Courage means TWF is better for them.
Barbarian: THF, was really only TWF in the time of WoP, where only quantity of attacks (and crit rage boosted crit ranges) mattered.
Cleric: If battle cleric, tends towards TWF.
Favored Soul: If melee oriented, tends towards THF.
Fighter: TWF or THF. THF seems more common.
Monk: TWF, since THF requires vastly inferior weapon types.
Paladin: TWF, due to smite mechanics.
Ranger: TWF, since that's the only one their class supports.
Rogue: TWF, since SA means only quantity of attacks matters.
Sorcerer: If battle mage, THF.
Wizard: If battle mage, THF.

So of the 7 classes that commonly melee you have one pressed towards TWF and four pigeonholed into it. Then you have two more that gravitate towards THF. And if you bring the other four into it THF gets some more showing, but this is primarily because THF is cheaper.

OF COURSE TWF IS MORE COMMON! Statistically, unless the TWF classes are marginalized out TWF will get more representation because there's more classes to represent it.

*record skipping sound*

...unless the TWF classes are marginalized out...

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Sockydoodle/NOOOO.JPG

[Hanza]

I rarely post on the forums. I am a paying costumer and have been for about 4-5 years. I am a fan of pen & paper. This seems to take ddo very far away from it. I would ask that this chance not take place. I may stop my premium account and finally give up on this game.I think after so much success in recent months it would be a mistake to make such a huge percentage of your costumers angry.

[sephiroth1084]

It is very relevant. The underlying question is "Calebro, do you actually have any high level experience with the affected characters to speak as though you do?"

And a MYDDO page showing he does in fact have one or more high level TWFers is directly and immediately relevant. If his MYDDO actually is bugged, then a picture of his character sheet would do the same thing. And he can even block the name out if he is that scared of others knowing who he is.

The fact he persistently refuses to do this clearly indicates he has no horse in this race. Which is fine, but then he needs to stop acting as if he does.
Actually, this stance is irrelevant. He may have experience in the end game without having a MyDDO page to prove it, or may simply wish to not share that information. What is relevant is what his stance(s) is (are).

Attacking him rather than engaging in real debate is just dirty politicking and has no place here.

[SquelchHU]

Questioning his experience is an ad hominem. Attack the argument, not the poster.

So it is acceptable to speak on a subject in such a way that makes it quite apparent that the person speaking has little to no idea what they are talking about, but it is not acceptable for someone to ask for proof of credentials to show that the other person does? Really?

You'd have a point if I questioned his experience in an insulting manner 'Lol, Calebro is a noob with only lowbie toons so he can't talk.' but this was not the case.


Yes, there's lot of strangeness in D&D 3.5 that would make this game become unplayable. That system has been so thoroughly raped by PnP powergamers (and by WotC themselves)that without extreme DM supervision and selection it is a joke.

While this is true, it has no relevance to the merits (or lack thereof) of THF and TWF, in D&D or in DDO.

[Aashrym]

This is a big make or break decision for Turbine. Maybe the devs are like "meh we are just changing the attack rate", but it's much much more then that, if they go through with this it is demonstrating to the pbase that they will without warning/notice completely turn upside down a vast chunk of builds/invested time/money without blinking.

Maybe casters don't realize this, but this would be tantamount to making casters memorize a certain number of spells they can use each per day and not based off their mana. It is MEGA huge for meleers across the board.

They need to do this smart, they need to do this carefully. I'm starting to fear for the life of the game.

If this wasn't notice what was it?

Just sayin' ;)

[Borror0]

So it is acceptable to speak on a subject in such a way that makes it quite apparent that the person speaking has little to no idea what they are talking about, but it is not acceptable for someone to ask for proof of credentials to show that the other person does? Really?
If he is as ignorant as you say he is, you should be in the ability to demonstrate his ignorance by refuting his arguments.

[IronClan]

It is very relevant. The underlying question is "Calebro, do you actually have any high level experience with the affected characters to speak as though you do?"

And a MYDDO page showing he does in fact have one or more high level TWFers is directly and immediately relevant. If his MYDDO actually is bugged, then a picture of his character sheet would do the same thing. And he can even block the name out if he is that scared of others knowing who he is.

The fact he persistently refuses to do this clearly indicates he has no horse in this race. Which is fine, but then he needs to stop acting as if he does.

The underlying question is why are you muddling up a thread that's supposed to be about feedback with your little personal war against one person who doesn't want to whip out his Epeen just because you and Galacticus are holding yours between your fingers and wiggling them about like school boys?

MyDDO might mean something in some little munchkin-land of: "my uber character means I am uberz IRL!" but what matters here is your actual argument, the fact that you two can't argue on merit and need to grasp for MyDDO straws suggests you can't refute his arguments intelligently so you're looking for something about his characters to hold up and say "see don't listen to him, he has a gimp character! get the torches and pitchforks!".

Sorry if this is seen as a flame, Devs feel free to delete when you delete all their pointless goading...

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Originally Posted by LookingForABentoBox View Post
Does 2-weapon-fighting still do more damage than 2-handed fighting to a significant margin? No
Do twf fighters still vorpal at a higher speed than 2hf? Yes
Will 6 levels of ranger still benefit 2 weapon fighting builds? No


Fixed that for you.

I this a poll? Can I vote too?

[SquelchHU]

I'm not going to stick my head in the STWF fight, but regarding the change to twf feats:

Does 2-weapon-fighting still do more damage than 2-handed fighting to a significant margin? >NO<
Do twf fighters still vorpal at a higher speed than 2hf? Yes
Will 6 levels of ranger still benefit 2 weapon fighting builds? >NO<
If so, what's the problem?

For the record, I have a level 19 ranger/rogue with monk splash that uses 2 weapons and a level 14 paladin that uses falchions

Tempest costs 4 feats. 3 at tier 1, 1 more at tier 3.

Before, the benefit of tempest was as follows:

Tier 1: +10%/+10%.
Tier 3: +0%/+27.5%.

Now, the benefit is as follows:

Tier 1: +0%/+10%.
Tier 2: +0%/+10%.
Tier 3: +5%/+0%.

Spending 3 feats for +10%/+10% was worthwhile regardless of whether you stopped at 6, or went up to 18 and paid one more for another +0%/+27.5%. Spending 3 feats for +0%/+10% is not worthwhile for 6 levels. Spending 4 feats for +5%/+20% is not worthwhile either.

And then you remember that STWF is one feat, and gives almost as much as all four of them combined.

Therefore one of the following is true:

STWF has prereqs that can be hit without a respec. As in Dex 17. Tempest is completely dead, as everyone ditches it and frees up three feats.

STWF does not have prereqs that can be hit without a respec. As in Dex 19 or so. In which case it is Rangers as a whole who are dead.


Actually, this stance is irrelevant. He may have experience in the end game without having a MyDDO page to prove it, or may simply wish to not share that information. What is relevant is what his stance(s) is (are).

Attacking him rather than engaging in real debate is just dirty politicking and has no place here.

And his stances suggest he does not have the requisite experience to speak on the subject, therefore asking him to confirm that he does in fact have that experience via MYDDO or screenshot is quite relevant.

It would be just like if I started claiming that 100 HP is 'fine' at level 12, because I never get hit. This is an easy claim to prove false, and if I actually said it it would strongly suggest that level 12 was my highest character (and that I was wrong even then, as there's still plenty of things that can kill a 100 HP character in that level range).

And if I did this, it would be perfectly acceptable to ask me to demonstrate that I had knowledge of the game from Gianthold on, because if I did then I would revise those false comments into the correct ones. And if I did not, then I would not be qualified to speak on the game as a whole and should be silent on the matter. Both of which are fair and reasonable reactions.

So no, I and others are not engaging him in real debate because he does not have the material to debate with. I have however debated with others that were qualified to speak on the subject.

And speaking of dirty politics... what I'm doing is not dirty politics, but now that you mention it the thread as a whole is.

They started with a lag fix. Ok, no one has any problem with that.

Then they attached a... I dunno the political term, but it's when you get people to pass stuff they don't want by attaching it to stuff they do. Namely, the DPS nerf which is seperate from the lag fix but released with it, and worded in such a way so many people are getting confused and thinking that the DPS nerf is necessary for the lag fix instead of being unrelated. Then if someone says no to it, you can say 'Wait, you're against [insert positive thing]?' In this case, a lag fix? When in fact they may very well have no problem with a lag fix, but when forced to vote on both it and something undesirable as a single package (DPS nerf) they are likely to vote 'no' to the whole.

It's bullying people into accepting things they don't want.

Just like the not so subtle threat that if DPS isn't nerfed, then Greensteel would be... even though it was called unrelated to the lag fix and yet worded as if the two were inseparable.

[Therilith]

I am a fan of pen & paper. This seems to take ddo very far away from it.

Really? How so?

[SquelchHU]

The underlying question is why are you muddling up a thread that's supposed to be about feedback with your little personal war against one person who doesn't want to whip out his Epeen just because you and Galacticus are holding yours between your fingers and wiggling them about like school boys?

MyDDO might mean something in some little munchkin-land of: "my uber character means I am uberz IRL!" but what matters here is your actual argument, the fact that you two can't argue on merit and need to grasp for MyDDO straws suggests you can't refute his arguments intelligently so you're looking for something about his characters to hold up and say "see don't listen to him, he has a gimp character! get the torches and pitchforks!".

Sorry if this is seen as a flame, Devs feel free to delete when you delete all their pointless goading...

It doesn't matter if his TWF(ers) are uber or not. What matters is that he has some. Even if they suck, that would still mean he has experience with TWF endgame.

It is you (and others) who assume this is about epeen, and it is you (and others) who have continued to bring this up for an additional 15 pages after I dropped the subject against him for the sole and express purpose of trolling me for neg rep (and just as I suspected, the moment you hit 1,500 you immediately pursued your personal vendetta against me).

Notice how I STOPPED TALKING TO HIM around page 105 or so? But people kept bringing it up anyways, because it's perfectly acceptable to speak about something you have no actual experience with?

[Bigrtt]

How about instead of lowering DPS output, we find those areas where DPS lag is common...add a 'slow time' effect to that area of the dungeon, essentially it's doing the same thing right? Shroud pt4 for example.

[sephiroth1084]

And his stances suggest he does not have the requisite experience to speak on the subject, therefore asking him to confirm that he does in fact have that experience via MYDDO or screenshot is quite relevant.

It would be just like if I started claiming that 100 HP is 'fine' at level 12, because I never get hit. This is an easy claim to prove false, and if I actually said it it would strongly suggest that level 12 was my highest character (and that I was wrong even then, as there's still plenty of things that can kill a 100 HP character in that level range).

And if I did this, it would be perfectly acceptable to ask me to demonstrate that I had knowledge of the game from Gianthold on, because if I did then I would revise those false comments into the correct ones. And if I did not, then I would not be qualified to speak on the game as a whole and should be silent on the matter. Both of which are fair and reasonable reactions.
Again, false. He may have that experience. I know people who managed to get by at that level with ~100 HP.

I manage to get by most of the time in epics on my wizard with ~300 HP, have completed large sections without taking any damage at all, and have completed many without deaths, including the otherwise fairly fatal DQ 2 without dying, and without Evasion.

Experiences vary. If you disagree with his position or claims, disagree with them in a real and constructive fashion, but attacking him and calling for proof of his credentials beyond his claims of is experience is fairly pointless and merely detracts from conversation and debate.

I can, to some degree, discuss programming, for example, despite having virtually zero experience in that realm, but I also don't claim to. Calebro has stated that he has played the endgame and has played epics, but did not enjoy them. What more is required?



And speaking of dirty politics... what I'm doing is not dirty politics, but now that you mention it the thread as a whole is.

They started with a lag fix. Ok, no one has any problem with that.

Then they attached a... I dunno the political term, but it's when you get people to pass stuff they don't want by attaching it to stuff they do. Namely, the DPS nerf which is seperate from the lag fix but released with it, and worded in such a way so many people are getting confused and thinking that the DPS nerf is necessary for the lag fix instead of being unrelated. Then if someone says no to it, you can say 'Wait, you're against [insert positive thing]?' In this case, a lag fix? When in fact they may very well have no problem with a lag fix, but when forced to vote on both it and something undesirable as a single package (DPS nerf) they are likely to vote 'no' to the whole.

My impression is that the TWF nerf does represent some impact upon addressing DPS lag, though, yes, the way in which this has been presented and worded is somewhat misleading.

That said, it also seems that we may be able to block the nerf in this fashion after testing it on Lama.


Just like the not so subtle threat that if DPS isn't nerfed, then Greensteel would be... even though it was called unrelated to the lag fix and yet worded as if the two were inseparable.
Which is not an entirely unreasonable possibility, as GS is clearly very overpowered, and causes problems with the entire loot system, and may, in and of itself, be contributing to lag.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

How about instead of lowering DPS output, we find those areas where DPS lag is common...add a 'slow time' effect to that area of the dungeon, essentially it's doing the same thing right? Shroud pt4 for example.

feedback from the last attempted nerf of attack speed showed that players really don't like the speed that their arms move being nerfed. While this change does reduce a few classes by around 10% or so, the major fix that will hopefully reduce lag is the removal of 50% of the physics hit box checks.

Garth

[geoffhanna]

... a whole lotta stuff, 20% of which is relevant and actually quite well stated...

Your arguments are deserving of consideration. Your other stuff penalizes those who try to consider your arguments. I believe you will do yourself a favor if you stick with just the arguments.

[Razcar]

While this is true, it has no relevance to the merits (or lack thereof) of THF and TWF, in D&D or in DDO.
Of course it has, for those people that keeps going to the D&D 3.5-well and drone about how happy we should be that TWF is even remotely useful in DDO because in D&D it's like this and like that. How TWF works in D&D is as irrelevant as how e.g. wizards work in D&D, or grazing hits (what?).

[Krag]

Are you saying that TWFers will be gimp because you have actually done the math and compared it to THF, or are you simply saying that any decrease in DPS is unacceptable to you no matter what?

Actually most of the TWFers already are gimps and the rest is very close. Care for the numbers? Squelch and Shade have provided them.

[BlackSteel]

Actually most of the TWFers already are gimps and the rest is very close. Care for the numbers? Squelch and Shade have provided them.

lol numbers + shade????????????????

noone on the forums has shown more disdain for numbers

[Gercho]

And speaking of dirty politics... what I'm doing is not dirty politics, but now that you mention it the thread as a whole is.

They started with a lag fix. Ok, no one has any problem with that.

Then they attached a... I dunno the political term, but it's when you get people to pass stuff they don't want by attaching it to stuff they do. Namely, the DPS nerf which is seperate from the lag fix but released with it, and worded in such a way so many people are getting confused and thinking that the DPS nerf is necessary for the lag fix instead of being unrelated. Then if someone says no to it, you can say 'Wait, you're against [insert positive thing]?' In this case, a lag fix? When in fact they may very well have no problem with a lag fix, but when forced to vote on both it and something undesirable as a single package (DPS nerf) they are likely to vote 'no' to the whole.

It's bullying people into accepting things they don't want.

Just like the not so subtle threat that if DPS isn't nerfed, then Greensteel would be... even though it was called unrelated to the lag fix and yet worded as if the two were inseparable.

I totally agree with this +1

[SquelchHU]

I am ignoring any and all further remarks regarding Calebro. Stop bringing it up again, and stop trolling me for neg rep for it.


I manage to get by most of the time in epics on my wizard with ~300 HP, have completed large sections without taking any damage at all, and have completed many without deaths, including the otherwise fairly fatal DQ 2 without dying, and without Evasion.

In most epics you don't take damage, true. But that is due to certain borked mechanics of those epics, and not because HP are not important.

Even in the few where you are likely to take damage regardless of if you can help it or not (DQ2) you still are not arguing just because you 'get by most of the time with 300 HP' that running around with low HP is fine. It simply means that you did it.

And in any case that was simply an example of where someone could say something that indicated the presence or absence of experience. I wasn't trying to get into another talk about that.


My impression is that the TWF nerf does represent some impact upon addressing DPS lag, though, yes, the way in which this has been presented and worded is somewhat misleading.

That said, it also seems that we may be able to block the nerf in this fashion after testing it on Lama.

Which is not an entirely unreasonable possibility, as GS is clearly very overpowered, and causes problems with the entire loot system, and may, in and of itself, be contributing to lag.

Claims that the DPS nerf fixes the DPS lag are false. Read the original post. He makes it very clear the cause of lag is a seperate check for the offhand, which he intends to fix by making it ride onto the main hand.


Currently a single two weapon fighting attack makes a physics detection check with your main hand, followed by a second detection check for your off hand (roughly 0.15 seconds after the first one). Instead of making multiple physics checks, all two weapon fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) would now make a single check for your main hand attack, and would “piggyback” on that detection check and have a chance to proc (trigger) an off-hand attack based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (or related enhancements) you possess. Off-hand attacks would have a chance to proc on any main hand attack now, instead of being predetermined on certain attacks. Having more TWF feats increases the % chance of proccing an off-hand attack.

This is the cause of DPS lag, and according to the OP making the offhand ride onto the mainhand greatly reduces or eliminates the extra load.

He then goes on to make the chances of triggering an offhand attack lower than they were before.


I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)

Two separate things.

As for Greensteel, no not really. Run the math.

If you can kill a mob in 10 seconds with +5 Holy of Pure Good, you will kill it in 9 with a Mineral 2. 10%. Certainly a significant difference, else people wouldn't grind for it (and be upset when they take a larger than 10% nerf for no particular reason). If you icy burst the aforementioned level 14 generic lootgen weapon, the gap between it and Min 2 drops to about 1%. Literally, 1%. Actually 1.05% but whatever.

But a 1-10% difference is not enough to be called overpowered. You only see so many using greensteel because it's finite grind, because most other named weapons are inferior to lootgen particularly at the time Mod 6 came out, and because a 1-10% improvement is still an improvement.

If you want to stop using the generic greensteel and start using something more focused (like say, Lightning 2) then you compare it to other focused weapons (like Holy/Greater Bane).

I don't feel like running the math on this, but I expect similar results.

'Greensteel is overpowered' is a massive strawman.

[SquelchHU]

Of course it has, for those people that keeps going to the D&D 3.5-well and drone about how happy we should be that TWF is even remotely useful in DDO because in D&D it's like this and like that. How TWF works in D&D is as irrelevant as how e.g. wizards work in D&D, or grazing hits (what?).

Here is the statement that started this discussion:


Yes, there's lot of strangeness in D&D 3.5 that would make this game become unplayable. That system has been so thoroughly raped by PnP powergamers (and by WotC themselves)that without extreme DM supervision and selection it is a joke.


While this is true, it has no relevance to the merits (or lack thereof) of THF and TWF, in D&D or in DDO.

As in while it is true that there is a lot of strangeness in D&D 3.5 that would make the game unplayable, and that powergamers have torn apart D&D 3.5 that has nothing to do with the fact that TWF is terrible in PnP, THF only suffers the generic melee flaws in PnP (as in it would be good if melee was good), but TWF and THF are much closer together in DDO.

Does that clarify things?

[BlackSteel]

'Greensteel is overpowered' is a massive strawman.

agreed, i've said the same thing several times

random loot gen in many instances can be better, just much rarer. The nice thing about greensteel is that they're generally all purpose weapons, and it gets rid of the golf bag backpack of weapons.

[Keridan]

Turbine wants YOU... to play pure THF barbarians. (Pls choose between dwarf male or female - DDO is a game of choices!)

If I hadn't maxed my rep for the last 24 hours, you'd get +1. I was sipping my coffee when I read that sig :P

[SquelchHU]

agreed, i've said the same thing several times

random loot gen in many instances can be better, just much rarer. The nice thing about greensteel is that they're generally all purpose weapons, and it gets rid of the golf bag backpack of weapons.

I'm not even so convinced about the rarer thing. After all just running Shroud enough to get you 24 larges will also get you somewhere in the neighborhood of 200-300 chests, all of which can drop level 14 weapons (such as +5 holy/pg). And this isn't counting what else you do.

Chances are if you check the AH on your server you can get +5 holy of pgs if you have the cash... and unless it's handwraps they won't be that expensive. Certainly cheaper than tier 3 greensteels.

And even when you consider a tier 2 pos/pos (+5 holy burst of pg, upgraded damage die) is about 4%-5% better than a lootgen +5 holy/pg, the blank alone ends up being more expensive even though the smalls and mediums are easy enough to acquire. That and icy burst again.

Greensteel however is finite grind. You can find +5 holy/pg now... or 1,000 chests from now. Or never. If you need 3 scales only, and you find one you know exactly how much closer you are.

It does tend to eliminate the golf bag of weapons, though that tends to be more due to laziness than greensteel actually replacing all lootgen weapons.

And speaking of which, people don't like icy burst either, but it certainly did draw awareness back to random loot.

[Zerkul]

I'll repeat this to nausea: i don't like this new two weapon fighting mechanic (as i didn't like in beta the grazing ht mechanic). This is just another bad joke from programmers which think only about rape the game of its beauty with silly solutions. If this was the first solution you passed by to reduce the lag i suggest you all (DEVs) to apply yourselves a bit more on the matter before jumping at conclusions like this one. Sorry for the strong terms but in my humble opinion this is just ********. That's what i think.


Z.

[IronClan]

And speaking of dirty politics... what I'm doing is not dirty politics, but now that you mention it the thread as a whole is.

They started with a lag fix. Ok, no one has any problem with that.

Then they attached a... I dunno the political term, but it's when you get people to pass stuff they don't want by attaching it to stuff they do. Namely, the DPS nerf which is seperate from the lag fix but released with it, and worded in such a way so many people are getting confused and thinking that the DPS nerf is necessary for the lag fix instead of being unrelated.

IMO you really need to re-read the OP you're making generalizations that are clearly disingenuous and intended to paint a narrative you want to tell, instead of the truth which is there in black and white in the OP and subsequent posts. I wont point it all out to you because i realize this is less about your understanding the OP and more about how you want to portray the developers. But that said the reduction in 10% speed boosts via turning it into double strikes, is clearly an attempt to reduce overall server overhead during combat... Maybe they think it will take the "peak" off of lag spikes or extreme examples of lag like DPS lag. "nerfing" TWF because it's a tad overpowered is in the same discussion because they need to get rid of the 10% haste boost of T1 at the same time they turn all the other haste effects into double strikes...

The nerf will have some small anti-lag synergy with removing the extra CD check (Collision Detection) by reducing the overall number of attacks a small amount, and the "Double strike" kludge will have synergy with both by taking the "peak" off by eliminating several sources of peaky combat speed increase (normalizing combat speed has the net effect of slowing it down overall).

No where has any Dev stated that "nerf has nothing to do with lag at all" or "nerf fixes lag by itself" or "hey look over there it's a LAG FIX!!!!" ----> nerf *whistles* :rolleyes:

Maybe surprising but I agree with your basic stance that this Nerf harsh as it stands. a 16% reduction in DPS is too much, IMO maybe 8-10% and then tweak a little if needed would be better. And I agree with your previous post that PART of the reason TWF is so popular is that so many classes are directed towards it (Paladins getting two smites per use when TWF for example instead of one per with THF) I mean Paladins are the classic S&B and THF class... why pigeon hole them towards TWF? Probably that second smite was a bug that turned into a feature. Anyway I just think you're catalyzing and polarizing the issue unnecessarily by adding mischaracterizations, and hyperbole.

[smatt]

IMO you really need to re-read the OP you're making generalizations that are clearly disingenuous and intended to paint a narrative you want to tell, instead of the truth which is there in black and white in the OP and subsequent posts. I wont point it all out to you because i realize this is less about your understanding the OP and more about how you want to portray the developers. But that said the reduction in 10% speed boosts via turning it into double strikes, is clearly an attempt to reduce overall server overhead during combat... Maybe they think it will take the "peak" off of lag spikes or extreme examples of lag like DPS lag. "nerfing" TWF because it's a tad overpowered is in the same discussion because they need to get rid of the 10% haste boost of T1 at the same time they turn all the other haste effects into double strikes...

The nerf will have some small anti-lag synergy with removing the extra CD check (Collision Detection) by reducing the overall number of attacks a small amount, and the "Double strike" kludge will have synergy with both by taking the "peak" off by eliminating several sources of peaky combat speed increase (normalizing combat speed has the net effect of slowing it down overall).

No where has any Dev stated that "nerf has nothing to do with lag at all" or "nerf fixes lag by itself" or "hey look over there it's a LAG FIX!!!!" ----> nerf *whistles* :rolleyes:

Maybe surprising but I agree with your basic stance that this Nerf harsh as it stands. a 16% reduction in DPS is too much, IMO maybe 8-10% and then tweak a little if needed would be better. And I agree with your previous post that PART of the reason TWF is so popular is that so many classes are directed towards it (Paladins getting two smites per use when TWF for example instead of one per with THF) I mean Paladins are the classic S&B and THF class... why pigeon hole them towards TWF? Probably that second smite was a bug that turned into a feature. Anyway I just think you're catalyzing and polarizing the issue unnecessarily by adding mischaracterizations, and hyperbole.



Nice post...

[Visty]

Fixed that for you.

nop, you didnt fix it , you made it wrong

tempest I DOES help twf
also twf DOES more dmg then thf

[Gercho]

IMO you really need to re-read the OP you're making generalizations that are clearly disingenuous and intended to paint a narrative you want to tell, instead of the truth which is there in black and white in the OP and subsequent posts. I wont point it all out to you because i realize this is less about your understanding the OP and more about how you want to portray the developers. But that said the reduction in 10% speed boosts via turning it into double strikes, is clearly an attempt to reduce overall server overhead during combat... Maybe they think it will take the "peak" off of lag spikes or extreme examples of lag like DPS lag. "nerfing" TWF because it's a tad overpowered is in the same discussion because they need to get rid of the 10% haste boost of T1 at the same time they turn all the other haste effects into double strikes...

The nerf will have some small anti-lag synergy with removing the extra CD check (Collision Detection) by reducing the overall number of attacks a small amount, and the "Double strike" kludge will have synergy with both by taking the "peak" off by eliminating several sources of peaky combat speed increase (normalizing combat speed has the net effect of slowing it down overall).

No where has any Dev stated that "nerf has nothing to do with lag at all" or "nerf fixes lag by itself" or "hey look over there it's a LAG FIX!!!!" ----> nerf *whistles* :rolleyes:



The fact is that if the devs had wanted to be 100% clear, they should have made two different posts, one about how to attack lag, and the double collision, and maybe double strike (applied to both hands) so it wouldnt mean any nerf at all. And another one totally different and independant about lowering the % of triggering off hand attacks whose purpose was to find the right balance between twf and thf, from the moment they mixed both things, it opens for intepretations as the one squelch made and i have to agree with.

Eladrin said that the main thing they expect to help with the lag is the removal from collision detection for off hand attacks, the actual damage and hit calculation wasnt the real problem. Double strike would eliminate some extra collision detection aswell, nerfing twf should have been a totally different post.

[Terdfergeson]

Does glancing blows add much to the lag during the calculations? Seems like a miss would cause less if it were simply a miss, without having to determine if any damage is actually dealt.

[Ollathir]

Thatr's cool. If he will "examine" the gains of TWF, he should of course examine the costs as well. If its one thing I've noticed, the costs have been marginalized. Least thats what I gather from post 1.

After this nerf I expect that for every one-handed GS weapon you craft, you get another for free. Make TWF have the same ability pre-requisite as THF = none. Make kopesh a martial weapon. And make TWF give no minus to hit. Since he wants them to have the same DPS, they should have the same costs. Then it will only be cosmetic.

Or how about this, make THF much cheaper than TWF but grant higher DPS against multiple opponents and lower against a single target. Oh, that is how it is working now. My bad.

Sorry, cant give anymore rep.


Correct, just like pushing in DA (which didn't fix the lag), this nerf to DPS isn't going to do anything to fix the lag. Pathing, yes was fixed by default, spawn rate and telporting, not everywhere.

I wonder if the monthly subscription rate/turbine point costs will rise at some point 'to fix the lag'? I also hear generating epic tokens creates lag, so we're going to fragments :) <--- :)




Are you saying that TWFers will be gimp because you have actually done the math and compared it to THF, or are you simply saying that any decrease in DPS is unacceptable to you no matter what? Personally I would find it more enjoyable to run end game content with less DPS. Maybe one less Vorpal going in my offhand for some quests. I find it hard to enjoy myself as it is if the healer/casters dont waste resources.


Yeah, if only someone had created a thread detailing the changes they are considering... Agreed, really wish they would have laid that out for us.


This will be the big hoochie mama of the DDO nerfs though.

A day which will live forever in infamy, when the very foundations of Stormreach shook from the dissonance of 10 000 kopeshes collectively crying out in pain! (Am I spreading it on a little too thick maybe?) :)

Nah. Ultimatly if the average gamer has a choice between TWF and THF melee, they will take the path of least resistance to maximum output. And if they can't figure it out, I'm sure someone will throw them a bone.
The experienced gamer will evaluate the new rule set, (if implimented) and create something that someone sooner or later will be crying foul about. ...So...we got that goin for us.


As an aside, Eladrin's last post on Friday evening was back on page 43.

This thread is now at page 119...

I don't envy your job this morning, El :p

Have the fealing there will be some maintenance on Tue that may effect some posts made over the last couple days.

[Ollathir]

/snip.

wow. Nicely played.

[Aashrym]

Does glancing blows add much to the lag during the calculations? Seems like a miss would cause less if it were simply a miss, without having to determine if any damage is actually dealt.

I would imagine a glancing blow would require a collision detection at some point too. If collision detection contributes to the DPS lag then I would guess yes.

[Consumer]

nop, you didnt fix it , you made it wrong

tempest I DOES help twf
also twf DOES more dmg then thf

No idea who you play with lol.

Its pretty clear an epic sos destroys lit II khopeshes atm and will continue to do so after this update in the hands of a Fighter.

Tempest I will only benefit Tempest rangers and tempests rogues after the update, even then the feat cost is awful. All builds that splashed for the 10% speed will be now better off removing the splash and taking STWF.

[Kevlar]

We’re attacking this problem from many angles, and since some of the changes we’re considering will have significant impact on many characters, we’re interested in your feedback before it goes to Lamannia or live.
Since you've asked (and thank you very much for doing so) I'm against these changes to solve the DPS lag problem and would ask you to pursue some of those other "many angles".

[BlackSteel]

No idea who you play with lol.

Its pretty clear an epic sos destroys lit II khopeshes atm and will continue to do so after this update in the hands of a Fighter.

Tempest I will only benefit Tempest rangers and tempests rogues after the update, even then the feat cost is awful. All builds that splashed for the 10% speed will be now better off removing the splash and taking STWF.

not a fair comparison now or after the update. Compare a lit 2 greataxe to lit 2 khopeshes.

or compare dual chaosblades on a pure pally versus the esos on a pure pally.

its a very bad argument when you're relying on one sole weapon that cant be used in 100% of content. unlike shroud weapons, which when released replaced nearly everything, and a single min 2 or lit2 was applicable in nearly every encounter (and still is)

[Ollathir]

Since you've asked (and thank you very much for doing so) I'm against these changes to solve the DPS lag problem and would ask you to pursue some of those other "many angles".

lol. Seems it is and isnt connected. The TWF nerf is because some think,feel believe or confirmed TWF is grossly overpowered compared to THF, taking into consideration or not taking into consideration the cost of creating an effective grossly overpowered TWF. Add in the elimination of the speed boosts, Ie Tempest I, Monk wind stance I-IV, Fighter Capstone needing to be removed.

Edit: speed boosts that stack with haste. :)

[SkyCry]

Some things work much better in online PC game environment (such as spell points vs spell cast per day) and I think percentage based chances like this are one of those things. Balancing this would be complicated, though, but there's potential.

I'd like to ask devs to keep in mind that some of us really appreciate the variety of builds D&D rules allow... and the transparency of the combat system. In D&D you always know what feat/ability/item/spell does *exactly*, so you can really plan. Please keep this trait of D&D! You're doing a pretty good job so far, but with some exceptions (especially on item special effects and a couple of feats)...

[Geonis]

Still don't believe this is all about nerfing TWF?

Then why are THF threads allowed to live:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=251345

Whereas TWF threads are killed:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2990101#post2990101

[Consumer]

not a fair comparison now or after the update. Compare a lit 2 greataxe to lit 2 khopeshes.

or compare dual chaosblades on a pure pally versus the esos on a pure pally.

its a very bad argument when you're relying on one sole weapon that cant be used in 100% of content. unlike shroud weapons, which when released replaced nearly everything, and a single min 2 or lit2 was applicable in nearly every encounter (and still is)

I'm sorry I'm not a fan of comparing max TWF DPS against average THF DPS, if I compare a build it uses the best weapon it can get for the circumstance.

It seems people want TWF and THF to have different DPS but won't accept that they do and it favors THF.

Also comparing a Pally, I thought you wanted an average comparison, not situational DPS.

[spinningmantis]

As long as they offer a free Lesser Reincarnate to every character after a major change like this goes through, I'll be ok with whatever is best for the game's playability. Many other MMO's have offered a free full respec after major changes.

[countesscrow]

Still don't believe this is all about nerfing TWF?

Then why are THF threads allowed to live:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=251345

Whereas TWF threads are killed:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2990101#post2990101

Yeah,

Mine was killed on the monk forums to. Personally I think everybody has already said what needs to be said and this thread should be locked.

When DDO staff gets back tomorrow they can read through all 100 and something pages and start a new thread with whatever proposed changes there thinking of now.


Chaotics

[Imnisc]

If nerfing dps allows other changes that ends up making the game better, go for it.
I would scrap the doublestrike thing tho, ugly and unnecessary.

How about:

Make greater two weapon fighting require 19 dex as it should, rangers pick path like monks
Remove all alacrity and clicky speed boosts, if they must stay convert to ignoring some percentage of fortification
Haste adds 1 attack at full bab (ie. 20/20/15/10/5 for a 20 fighter)
twf'ing with no feats or only two weapon fighting gives 1 offhand attack
with imp. twf 2 offhand attacks
with greater twf 3 offhand attacks

The animation cycle must be arranged so frequency of attacks increase toward end of cycle.

[SquelchHU]

IMO you really need to re-read the OP you're making generalizations that are clearly disingenuous and intended to paint a narrative you want to tell, instead of the truth which is there in black and white in the OP and subsequent posts. I wont point it all out to you because i realize this is less about your understanding the OP and more about how you want to portray the developers. But that said the reduction in 10% speed boosts via turning it into double strikes, is clearly an attempt to reduce overall server overhead during combat... Maybe they think it will take the "peak" off of lag spikes or extreme examples of lag like DPS lag. "nerfing" TWF because it's a tad overpowered is in the same discussion because they need to get rid of the 10% haste boost of T1 at the same time they turn all the other haste effects into double strikes...

He clearly states the cause is due to extra calls from the offhand, and these will be corrected by tying them to the mainhand. Therefore it is clear that if the offhand is not making those function calls, but is instead riding on the mainhand function call, there are far fewer function calls.

He then goes on to say that the offhand will have an x% chance of triggering, which is lower than before.

If the cause of DPS lag is extra function calls, and they're not doing that anymore then the offhand could trigger at 80%, or its original numbers, or 300% and not affect DPS lag.

The truth is there in black and white.

Point 1: We want to correct DPS lag by reducing the server load caused by offhand attacks.
Point 2: We want to reduce the damage output of dual wielders by reducing the frequency of offhand attacks.


Maybe surprising but I agree with your basic stance that this Nerf harsh as it stands. a 16% reduction in DPS is too much, IMO maybe 8-10% and then tweak a little if needed would be better. And I agree with your previous post that PART of the reason TWF is so popular is that so many classes are directed towards it (Paladins getting two smites per use when TWF for example instead of one per with THF) I mean Paladins are the classic S&B and THF class... why pigeon hole them towards TWF? Probably that second smite was a bug that turned into a feature. Anyway I just think you're catalyzing and polarizing the issue unnecessarily by adding mischaracterizations, and hyperbole.

Not a bug. Most effects that trigger on a melee attack will occur on both mainhand and offhand, if you attack with both that sequence. Ki strikes, trip, stunning blow... A THF will get these effects on their glancing blows if they get a glancing blow this sequence.

If Paladin smite was 7 * 3/level for one handed weapons and a higher number for two handed weapons you'd see more THF Paladins. (the lack of good two handed Holy Sword options doesn't help either)

[Calebro]

Lol, negative rep for telling someone who clearly has little gaming experience to stay out of the discussion or at least not enter it as if he knew what he was talking about?Questioning his experience is an ad hominem. Attack the argument, not the poster.

That's OK Squelch, I got neg rep for answering a question (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2995080#post2995080) about why I was at work on Saturday if that makes you feel any better.

[mourne]

I can leave it out, but thought that including it as an option would be beneficial.


Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.

IF the nerf goes in as proposed in the chart, STWF is a must. Kensai TWF are gettting a big fat nerf bat in the change. Adding STWF to increase the off hand for a fighter would save you tons of flames from alot of players.

[Muerta]

So not going to read through this all, has it been suggested to get rid of some of the die rolls alltogether? Like get rid of critical check, any fighter is going to make it anyway. And to make greensteel only a static dam with all the variants at tier 1 6 dam, 2 10 dam and tier 3 15. so you will do 31 on a 20, and 16 evertime a crit happens. This may not appease all, but in the interest of lag for everything in the high end why not, and not worry about loss of hits, keep that the same. Green steel code is its on in a way? And can see some stuff tied to crit acc, but add that backend into the base dam for when a crit happens. This would leave burst dam for some that want it. This does not solve the problem of monk dam, but there is not usually a room full of monks either and getting the high end gear to do shocking burst, holy burst, cold bust of pure good is not for all of em.

[Pfold]

Now that I've slept and my brain has taken some of this in, my thoughts:

Turbine will never figure out the 'lag issue' simply because they already haven't at this point. Sure, nerfing twf *MAY* help reduce it a bit but probably not to an extent that it's worth mentioning. Shame on you Turbine. Back to the lag...

In ToD part 2 you have 1 boss (stationary) being beaten on by the melee and a person kiting trash. Lag=epic

By comparison:

In Tod part 1 you have melee beating on a mobile enemy, a person kiting the other, plus all the trash that spawns. From the user end there are more moving parts. Lag= marginal
In Tod part 3 you have melee (the same amount ind you) beating another boss that isn't in a fixed position. Lag= marginal

Point is that it's the same 12 people in that raid. So what's going on in there creating all the lag? What is the difference on Turbine's end between those fights? Well, it obviously isn't the group comp. Seems like the fights/encounters themselves should be retooled and not the mechanics of the characters. Design better end fights.

Again, another example:

Shroud Pt 1- lag occurs solely on the stationary targets- the portals
Part 4 - always laggy, boss is stationary
Part 5- laggy when the boss is boxed in, or in other words, becomes stationary due to player interaction.

Maybe I'm over generalizing there but is finding the common thread really that hard for Turbine? Really?

I've never been in one but has anyone run a THF only shroud or ToD? If so, was the lag difference so noticable that it would have justified Turbine touting it as a side benefit of the nerf?

The nerf and my feelings on it:

What/who is prompting the nerf to begin with? What is the nerf specifically addressing? Are they doing too much damage? Can't you scale health pools to compensate instead of riling up your customers? Isn't there better things Turbine should be focusing on... ...like the lag? For real. /facepalm

[kingfisher]

Still don't believe this is all about nerfing TWF?

Then why are THF threads allowed to live:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=251345

Whereas TWF threads are killed:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2990101#post2990101

if anyone does not believe this they are dense. the lag issue is not even being dicussed anymore! its all about he nerf to twf, which is turbines true goal i guess, although i cannot figure out why. i thought it was more money grubbing at first, but i think they will lose way more business than they will gain from this. what sense does this make to anyone? the lag is not that bad, i mean really its not, a couple places sure, but why not change THOSE places before changing 60% of all the active melees out there? so all this for lag in 4 quests is hard to believe....so whats the real reason? has got to be twf, they are taking the big hit. but why? what would be worth losing a bunch of players that have been around FOREVER? plus some of the new ones too? someone tell me this please?

if given a choice between bringing up these changes and keeping the game the same as it is today, HOW MANY PLAYERS WOULD CHOOSE THIS CHANGE?

if they are truely wanting to fix lag, why not come up with several proposed changes and see which one is better? is that not what the test servers are for?

how can they even consider moving forward with this in any fashion given the uproar it has cause while just MENTIONED? imagine how bad it will be if it goes live as intended?

what i dont get is who at turbine has the s/m streak? why go to all this trouble to build up your mmo after suffering through years of little-to-no new content etc, take a big gamble on ftp, watch it work great, rolling oiut updates at a nice pace, adding players, winning awards, and then BAM, hey lets change the whole friggin combat dynamic (which is without a doubt the best part about ddo compared to other mmos), nerf a bunch of toons back to the stone age, blame it on lag, and see what happens? if they go through with the said changes it would be, BY FAR, the dumbest thing turbine has ever done, and that my friends is saying something.

[Angelus_dead]

Adding STWF to increase the off hand for a fighter would save you tons of flames from alot of players.
It looks like adding STWF would increase the complaints, as it means that TWF fighters take less of a nerf than TWF paladins, rogues, bards, clerics, favored souls, and monks. That unfairness leads to dissatisfaction.

If you check this thread, you'll notice there already is a large amount of heated feedback on that exact subject.

[Cyr]

Tempest II's already have the benefits of STWF in the proposed change, as they reach 100% off hand attacks.
Eladrin,

This is one of the major failures of this design flow. Tempest 1 and 2 actually are very mediocre in this new 'system'. In fact, it completly guts any reason and toon who splashed 6 ranger for tempest 1. Tempest 1 requires 3 feats. 2 are feats you might consider buying, might being the operative word and one is a feat no one would buy except for the tempest requirement. Right now for 3 feats you get a PrE which does half of what a single feat gives you per step. That is very poor bang for the buck when you would just be better off being pretty much any other class TWF that has a full bab bonus due to their PrE's actually doing something useful for you.

So not only is tempest horribly nerfed, but it is also mostly useless comparativily. I really don't understand the logic behind any of this lets nerf the heck out of twf, but what is more bewildering is that the method indicates a lack of understanding about what build choices people face with certain twf characters.

[sir_odin]

Can't see how THF gets nerfed, i would rather said that it get's buffed. with the suggested implementation a fighter with capstone and DoQ (docent of quickening) would get 20% more mainhand since THF hits counts as mainhand. ATM kensai with eSoS is 'top of dps' how is another 10% dps gonna help the lag?

i guess we see LFM like when the level cap was 14-16 only that 'fighter & barbs only...... have eSoS.... PS. ill myDDO you!!!'

why not just slow down the animation instead of rebuilding the core of the game.

leave it, turn down animation and monster HP and save your brilliant ideas for DDO II.


EDIT: bringing enchantments, feats and Pre that boost 'doubletap' would even unballance the game more, TWF would be like midgets with forks and THF would be chuck norris with lightsaber

[Kevlar]

The TWF nerf is because some think,feel believe or confirmed TWF is grossly overpowered compared to THF, taking into consideration or not taking into consideration the cost of creating an effective grossly overpowered TWF. Add in the elimination of the speed boosts, Ie Tempest I, Monk wind stance I-IV, Fighter Capstone needing to be removed.

Edit: speed boosts that stack with haste. :)
I wish we all would make up our mind. First monks are gimped for a myriad of reasons (green steel, crit range, etc) and now they're lumped in with an overpowered group. :)

[Aesop]

It looks like adding STWF would increase the complaints, as it means that TWF fighters take less of a nerf than TWF paladins, rogues, bards, clerics, favored souls, and monks. That unfairness leads to dissatisfaction.

If you check this thread, you'll notice there already is a large amount of heated feedback on that exact subject.

STWF is a HORRIBLE IDEA.

for the reasons mentioned above

Of everything proposed and suggested that is the worst of the ideas... Same as I said when it was first hinted at.


Aesop

[Aesop]

Can't see how THF gets nerfed, i would rather said that it get's buffed. with the suggested implementation a fighter with capstone and DoQ (docent of quickening) would get 20% more mainhand since THF hits counts as mainhand. ATM kensai with eSoS is 'top of dps' how is another 10% dps gonna help the lag?

i guess we see LFM like when the level cap was 14-16 only that 'fighter & barbs only...... have eSoS.... PS. ill myDDO you!!!'

why not just slow down the animation instead of rebuilding the core of the game.

leave it, turn down animation and monster HP and save your brilliant ideas for DDO II.


EDIT: bringing enchantments, feats and Pre that boost 'doubletap' would even unballance the game more, TWF would be like midgets with forks and THF would be chuck norris with lightsaber

ARE YOU CRAZY!?!?

maybe you weren't here when they did just that? Dear gods it was like fighting in jello.

[IronClan]

[snip] Turbine wants everyone to be a THF barbarian

It's funny but this works even better in reverse:

Turbine wants you!
Be a Paladin... TWF...
A Rogue! ... TWF...
A Fighter!... TWF...
A FvS!... TWF
Or a Ranger!... TWF...

We'll even give you more choices, you can use two Faith based weapons with FvS, two weapon double smites with Paladins, dual Kensai specialized weapons with Fighters, and of course Tempest with Rangers (and every other multiclass that goes 6 ranger)...

If that's not enough choices you have the choice of Khopeshes!

[IronClan]

No idea who you play with lol.
Its pretty clear an epic sos destroys lit II khopeshes atm and will continue to do so after this update in the hands of a Fighter.


Again they can't balance the game around a weapon that a small number of people have who are playing in a part of the game that only a tiny percentage of the player base (epic) ever plays...

[Natashaelle]

It is very relevant. The underlying question is "Calebro, do you actually have any high level experience with the affected characters to speak as though you do?"

And a MYDDO page showing he does in fact have one or more high level TWFers is directly and immediately relevant. If his MYDDO actually is bugged, then a picture of his character sheet would do the same thing. And he can even block the name out if he is that scared of others knowing who he is.

The fact he persistently refuses to do this clearly indicates he has no horse in this race. Which is fine, but then he needs to stop acting as if he does.

Bollocks.

This is an open forum, where everyone can have their say on the basis of whatever personal experience they may have of the game.

I personally am just FED UP with these irrelevant and time wasting demands that you're making against the other member, with your continual derailing of this thread into your little personal concerns that NOBODY else gives a rat's @$$ about, and your unpleasant little personal attacks against another member for no good reason whatsoever.

<some ranting removed, because I was overdoing it, sorry>

EDIT :


I am ignoring any and all further remarks regarding Calebro. Stop bringing it up again, and stop trolling me for neg rep for it.

OK, THANK YOU :)

[Borror0]

ARE YOU CRAZY!?!?

maybe you weren't here when they did just that? Dear gods it was like fighting in jello.
His October 2009 join date suggests he was not. ;)

[bandyman1]

Again they can't balance the game around a weapon that a small number of people have who are playing in a part of the game that only a tiny percentage of the player base (epic) ever plays...

Why not???

They are nerfing an entire fighting style to high heaven in 100% of the games content, supposedly as a fix for a situation that occurs in less than 1% of it.

[picaisfun]

I don't like it. How about using some of the money you are collecting in the store to upgrade the servers.

[Consumer]

Again they can't balance the game around a weapon that a small number of people have who are playing in a part of the game that only a tiny percentage of the player base (epic) ever plays...

I explained a solution to the epic SoS problem earlier in the thread but it resulted in tears.

[Calebro]

Again they can't balance the game around a weapon that a small number of people have who are playing in a part of the game that only a tiny percentage of the player base (epic) ever plays...Why not???

They are nerfing an entire fighting style to high heaven in 100% of the games content, supposedly as a fix for a situation that occurs in less than 1% of it.

That isn't the reason you can't use eSoS for balancing purposes.
ESoS is overpowered, but quite a bit I might add. It needs to be nerfed. You can't balance a game based on an item that is too powerful or you create a power creep that will be unfixable. Unfixable. Repeat: Unfixable.
It doesn't matter how may people have it, or how long it took them to grind for it. That is all irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is overpowered and cannot be used as a baseline.

And IMO the nerf isn't nearly as dramatic as many of you are claiming.

[Cetus]

Now that I've slept and my brain has taken some of this in, my thoughts:

Turbine will never figure out the 'lag issue' simply because they already haven't at this point. Sure, nerfing twf *MAY* help reduce it a bit but probably not to an extent that it's worth mentioning. Shame on you Turbine. Back to the lag...

In ToD part 2 you have 1 boss (stationary) being beaten on by the melee and a person kiting trash. Lag=epic

By comparison:

In Tod part 1 you have melee beating on a mobile enemy, a person kiting the other, plus all the trash that spawns. From the user end there are more moving parts. Lag= marginal
In Tod part 3 you have melee (the same amount ind you) beating another boss that isn't in a fixed position. Lag= marginal

Point is that it's the same 12 people in that raid. So what's going on in there creating all the lag? What is the difference on Turbine's end between those fights? Well, it obviously isn't the group comp. Seems like the fights/encounters themselves should be retooled and not the mechanics of the characters. Design better end fights.

Again, another example:

Shroud Pt 1- lag occurs solely on the stationary targets- the portals
Part 4 - always laggy, boss is stationary
Part 5- laggy when the boss is boxed in, or in other words, becomes stationary due to player interaction.

Maybe I'm over generalizing there but is finding the common thread really that hard for Turbine? Really?

I've never been in one but has anyone run a THF only shroud or ToD? If so, was the lag difference so noticable that it would have justified Turbine touting it as a side benefit of the nerf?

The nerf and my feelings on it:

What/who is prompting the nerf to begin with? What is the nerf specifically addressing? Are they doing too much damage? Can't you scale health pools to compensate instead of riling up your customers? Isn't there better things Turbine should be focusing on... ...like the lag? For real. /facepalm

I really hope Eladrin reads this post specifically.

Very well said, bravo.

[sir_odin]

His October 2009 join date suggests he was not. ;)

join date = janaur 2006 - codemaster, pre beta ;) just escaped the EU sinking ship, so sorry for not having 3213412543412 posts on US forum.

i would rather be 5-10% slower, even do a 2 rounder harry then loose 45% offhand dmg and exluded from raids and epic since 'noobs use TWF'


even increasing the AC and lowering monster HP would increase miss chance and decrase 'dps lag'

[Angelus_dead]

Seems like the fights/encounters themselves should be retooled and not the mechanics of the characters. Design better end fights.
This is pretty funny, but the easiest way to fix the lag in those fights: Change those instances from 12 to 6 player.

For various reasons the devs won't do it, but it would solve this problem.

[bandyman1]

That isn't the reason you can't use eSoS for balancing purposes.
ESoS is overpowered, but quite a bit I might add. It needs to be nerfed. You can't balance a game based on an item that is too powerful or you create a power creep that will be unfixable. Unfixable. Repeat: Unfixable.
It doesn't matter how may people have it, or how long it took them to grind for it. That is all irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is overpowered and cannot be used as a baseline.

So is Greensteel.


And IMO the nerf isn't nearlyv as dramatic as many of you are claiming.

I'm glad you think so. IMO, my monk and rogue will be destroyed by this change.

You know what they say about opinions. /shrugs

[kingfisher]

ARE YOU CRAZY!?!?

maybe you weren't here when they did just that? Dear gods it was like fighting in jello.

autoquit! and imo this is what it will be like for those twf without full bab if this change goes live


Bollocks.



I personally am just FED UP with these irrelevant and time wasting demands that you're making against the other member, with your continual derailing of this thread into your little personal concerns that NOBODY else gives a rat's @$$ about, and your unpleasant little personal attacks against another member for no good reason whatsoever.



word


Why not???

They are nerfing an entire fighting style to high heaven in 100% of the games content, supposedly as a fix for a situation that occurs in less than 1% of it.

well said! this is why its obvious to see this is not a lag-fix with a add-on twf nerf, but a twf-nerf in a lag-fixes clothing. i think that if they looked at the 4 places in the game dps lag is a problem they could easily and less obtrusively alter those place while leaving our toons alone.


I don't like it. How about using some of the money you are collecting in the store to upgrade the servers.

oh no! dont even suggest this! its not even within the realm of possibility that they could fix this problem with money. they will delete this post as 'counterproductive' and 'not possible'. what they really mean is, we dont want to talk about this option because it effects our bottom line and does not nerf twf. what a joke! they wont even discuss it or any other changes, just this cluster**** gamebreaking bright idea.

[SquelchHU]

Now that I've slept and my brain has taken some of this in, my thoughts:

<Paraphrased for brevity: DPS lag occurs vs stationary targets, but not moving targets even if there's more going on at the time.>

Maybe I'm over generalizing there but is finding the common thread really that hard for Turbine? Really?

I've never been in one but has anyone run a THF only shroud or ToD? If so, was the lag difference so noticable that it would have justified Turbine touting it as a side benefit of the nerf?

Epic Velah too. According to Durnak, who is right up there with Shade when it comes to THF there is DPS lag with TWFers, but not THFers... despite the fact there is clearly large amounts of DPS involved. Velah isn't as bad about it, since the raid mechanics force you to take breaks and breaks fix it but it is yet another example of DPS lag occurring when fighting stationary targets with TWF but not THF.

+1 rep.

[IronClan]

Still don't believe this is all about nerfing TWF?


Still? Anyone who doesn't believe this is about nerfing TWF didn't read the original post or SCORES of other posts pointing out that turbine is admitting in the original post they need to balance TWF. They are doing it at the same time they address DPS lag spikes, and because the nerfs have synergy with lag fixes and are interelated to one another they are doing them at the same time:

Also being nerfed:
Two handed fighting "twitch/sploit" glancing blows (probably a minor lag benefit here less client updates from the player breaking the attack chain every swing)
And combat speed boosts that stack with haste (Fighter cap, Tempest, Zeal etc.) which is probably purely about lowering the density of combat calculations.

Pass it along no ones trying to pull the wool over your eyes :)

[Cetus]

That isn't the reason you can't use eSoS for balancing purposes.
ESoS is overpowered, but quite a bit I might add. It needs to be nerfed. You can't balance a game based on an item that is too powerful or you create a power creep that will be unfixable. Unfixable. Repeat: Unfixable.
It doesn't matter how may people have it, or how long it took them to grind for it. That is all irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is overpowered and cannot be used as a baseline.

And IMO the nerf isn't nearly as dramatic as many of you are claiming.

The Epic SoS is NOT overpowered. Anyone who has used one understands that it is a situational weapon: None or Low DR target, and Low or No fortification target. The epic SoS is AS powerful as a dang EPIC weapon should be.

Or do you presume our epic weapons all turn into epic siroccos?

[Krag]

That isn't the reason you can't use eSoS for balancing purposes.
ESoS is overpowered, but quite a bit I might add. It needs to be nerfed. You can't balance a game based on an item that is too powerful or you create a power creep that will be unfixable. Unfixable. Repeat: Unfixable.
It doesn't matter how may people have it, or how long it took them to grind for it. That is all irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is overpowered and cannot be used as a baseline.

And IMO the nerf isn't nearly as dramatic as many of you are claiming.

I can't remember Devs stating anything about eSoS fix. Therefore arguments based on it's actual value rather than some imaginary wannabe fixes are perfectly viable.

[bandyman1]

The Epic SoS is NOT overpowered. Anyone who has used one understands that it is a situational weapon: None or Low DR target, and Low or No fortification target. The epic SoS is AS powerful as a dang EPIC weapon should be.

Or do you presume our epic weapons all turn into epic siroccos?

Dude...even the **** Devs admitt they went overboard with that one.

I'm not trying to **** in your Cheereos, but you're most likely gonna see a nerf bat swung at your toy.

[Visty]

The Epic SoS is NOT overpowered. Anyone who has used one understands that it is a situational weapon: None or Low DR target, and Low or No fortification target. The epic SoS is AS powerful as a dang EPIC weapon should be.

Or do you presume our epic weapons all turn into epic siroccos?

eladrin himself said its overpowered, so it is

[Calebro]

So is Greensteel.

No argument.


I've never been in one but has anyone run a THF only shroud or ToD? If so, was the lag difference so noticable that it would have justified Turbine touting it as a side benefit of the nerf?

Do you really think that the implications of this are only going to directly affect those two raids?
This has server-wide implications.
It isn't just the people in the raid that affect the off-hand calculations, but everywhere. It isn't removing (just shy of) 50% of the off-hand calculations in that raid, it is removing them everywhere. If each instance was run from a different source your argument would be valid, but that isn't the case.
Reducing almost 50% of those calculations in *every* instance will help those people that need it.

Less load on the servers = less lag in those raids.

[Cetus]

Dude...even the **** Devs admitt they went overboard with that one.

I'm not trying to **** in your Cheereos, but you're most likely gonna see a nerf bat swung at your toy.

Theres a fine line between calling something "powerful" and something "too powerful".

The Epic SoS is very powerful, but it is not OVERPOWERED. There are situations where it is rendered useless and these situations keep it from being too powerful.

It is a **** game that consists of you accelerating your character, what is wrong with throwing players a bone to promote what they are here to do in the first place, HAVE FUN. Its a game.

[Calebro]

I can't remember Devs stating anything about eSoS fix. Therefore arguments based on it's actual value rather than some imaginary wannabe fixes are perfectly viable.

Well then here you go.
I won’t hide that these proposed changes do reduce the effectiveness of off-hand attacks, which reduces the two weapon fighting style’s extreme dominance over two handed fighting. Skipping the extreme outlier of the Epic Sword of Shadows (we got a little carried away there, didn’t we?), estimated damage output over time for the two styles should be extremely close to each other if we go this route. (Which style is superior ends up being heavily dependent on your character's abilities.)
Emphasis red.
Implication: overpowered, and they know it.
Deduction: A nerf will be coming.

[SquelchHU]

The Epic SoS is NOT overpowered. Anyone who has used one understands that it is a situational weapon: None or Low DR target, and Low or No fortification target. The epic SoS is AS powerful as a dang EPIC weapon should be.

Or do you presume our epic weapons all turn into epic siroccos?

Naw, we should grind for months to get this epic weapon of pwnage:

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Weapon:Club_of_the_Holy_Flame

[Krag]

Well then here you go.
Emphasis red.
Implication: overpowered, and they know it.
Deduction: A nerf will be coming.

Yes, I have read this post. Not even a word about nerfs.

[bandyman1]

Theres a fine line between calling something "powerful" and something "too powerful".

The Epic SoS is very powerful, but it is not OVERPOWERED. There are situations where it is rendered useless and these situations keep it from being too powerful.

It is a **** game that consists of you accelerating your character, what is wrong with throwing players a bone to promote what they are here to do in the first place, HAVE FUN. Its a game.

I don't give a **** if you have one on every toon bro. Check the guild list; It's not as if I don't have access to epic SoS.

But then again, it's not me that you have to convince.

/shrugs.

[Calebro]

Yes, I have read this post. Not even a word about nerfs.

1+1 still equals 2 where I'm from.
Remember the threat that if this change gets reverted that GS will probably be nerfed? The Devs admitting ESoS is overpowered holds the same implications.
They're trying to find a way around that, but you still can't balance a game on that item,.
Period.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

The Epic SoS is NOT overpowered. Anyone who has used one understands that it is a situational weapon: None or Low DR target, and Low or No fortification target. The epic SoS is AS powerful as a dang EPIC weapon should be.

Or do you presume our epic weapons all turn into epic siroccos?

The epic SoS is overpowered against almost all mobs in the game, except perhaps something with both a lot of DR and a lot of fort (of which the only mob I can think of is undead Sor'jek)

Garth

[Dragon-Kin]

I do not understand how a "developer" or team of “developers” could make such a suggestion. There are many ways to reduce lag, nerfing classes that so many players enjoy is a very very bad business decision. Just in my family we have four dedicated players who put our hard earner $$$ into this game. All of us have Monks, and Tempests built around the very ability this proposal is going to take away, what kind of move is that?

Sure we have other toons, but to nerf two of the most enjoyable builds that keep people spending $$$ on the game is the most lame brain idea anyone could every suggest.

I have seen other games that have allowed “developers” to make decisions based on “lag” or “performance” issues. They went out of business because they did not listen to the player community.

My recommendation is to find way to reduce lag without nerfing one of the most enjoyable things in the game - speed of attack. If you want to force this solution better make sure you do an impact study enlisting the opinions of the PAYING CUSTOMERS.

Let the staff that pay the bills make these types of calls that impact so many new and long term players to insure the game survives - there is no doubt this change if implemented will have a direct negative $$$ impact on the bottom line. You will have players leaving this game folks, we can spend our entertainment dollars else where. If every lag issue calls for the nerfing of prime skills many players enjoy and you implement this, what is to stop the next nerf, or the next...

There are many ways to address lag without nerfing the classes/abilities so many of your players get great enjoyment playing.

I am in the technical business, technical staff some times make very bad business decisions attempting to solve a technical problem. Many times the solution easiest to implement cost a business big time, this may be the easiest technical solution but it is a very bad from a business perspective if you guys want to make money. I know that from the four players in my house alone.

Better re-think what is going on here, sound advice from your player community. If I remember correctly that is one of the themes here, listening to the player community, time to do that...

[Borror0]

join date = janaur 2006 - codemaster, pre beta ;)
My point still stands. Since you were on the European servers until October, you didn't get to experience how the attack rate felt when it was 10% slower.

[Visty]

I do not understand how a "developer" or team of “developers” could make such a suggestion. There are many ways to reduce lag, nerfing classes that so many players enjoy is a very very bad business decision.

readin comprehension fail

the nerf isnt tied to the lagfix, its two seperated things

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

When the fighter capstone was announced which is 10% more dps for fighters, there wasn't an uproar of people threatening to leave and delete their (non fighter) characters and all that.

This was effectively a 10% dps 'nerf' for non fighter classes, just as it would be if the devs go ahead with putting stwf into the game (which helps fighters more than anyone else) along with these offhand changes. Why is this different?

Garth

[Krag]

1+1 still equals 2 where I'm from.
Remember the threat that if this change gets reverted that GS will probably be nerfed? The Devs admitting ESoS is overpowered holds the same implications.
They're trying to find a way around that, but you still can't balance a game on that item,.
Period.

Remember, it's TURBINE you are talking about. Years may pass between admitting a problem and fixing it.

Yes, SoS is owerpowered. No, you can not assume it will be nerfed any time soon. Until they directly say that SoS is going to be fixed, it stays as standard for high-end THF.

[Vhlad]

Now that I've slept and my brain has taken some of this in, my thoughts:

Turbine will never figure out the 'lag issue' simply because they already haven't at this point. Sure, nerfing twf *MAY* help reduce it a bit but probably not to an extent that it's worth mentioning. Shame on you Turbine. Back to the lag...

In ToD part 2 you have 1 boss (stationary) being beaten on by the melee and a person kiting trash. Lag=epic

By comparison:

In Tod part 1 you have melee beating on a mobile enemy, a person kiting the other, plus all the trash that spawns. From the user end there are more moving parts. Lag= marginal
In Tod part 3 you have melee (the same amount ind you) beating another boss that isn't in a fixed position. Lag= marginal

Point is that it's the same 12 people in that raid. So what's going on in there creating all the lag? What is the difference on Turbine's end between those fights? Well, it obviously isn't the group comp. Seems like the fights/encounters themselves should be retooled and not the mechanics of the characters. Design better end fights.

Again, another example:

Shroud Pt 1- lag occurs solely on the stationary targets- the portals
Part 4 - always laggy, boss is stationary
Part 5- laggy when the boss is boxed in, or in other words, becomes stationary due to player interaction.

Maybe I'm over generalizing there but is finding the common thread really that hard for Turbine? Really?

I've never been in one but has anyone run a THF only shroud or ToD? If so, was the lag difference so noticable that it would have justified Turbine touting it as a side benefit of the nerf?

The nerf and my feelings on it:

What/who is prompting the nerf to begin with? What is the nerf specifically addressing? Are they doing too much damage? Can't you scale health pools to compensate instead of riling up your customers? Isn't there better things Turbine should be focusing on... ...like the lag? For real. /facepalm

In part 1 TOD you have breaks in the DPS every time the boss flings the melee across the room.

Part 2 TOD is constant DPS, hence more likely to start lagging.

Part 3 TOD will lag just as much as part 2 if everyone has boots and does constant DPS. What usually happens though, is a few DPS are shooting ranged weapons from the other end of the room to avoid banishment and/or someone gets banished (thereby reducing the DPS load). Some DPS may break off for buffs/healing/orthons as well, and if the DPS get stunned for a few seconds that's a DPS break.

Shroud part 1, lag occurs due to constant DPS.
Same with part 4, and part 5 when the boss is boxed in.

During extended periods of constant DPS, the server can't handle the stream of information. We can currently use breaks in DPS to stop/limit lag in raids (i.e. everyone stop beating for 10 seconds). It's not very fun to do that.

Aside from self-inflicted DPS breaks or quest design related DPS breaks (i.e. being flung across the room or AoE stun), DPS lag can be limited by reducing the amount of information during periods of constant DPS, i.e. removing physics checks for off hand, reducing attack rate, reducing glancing blows, nerfing weapon effects, limiting the number of melee DPS in your raid, etc.

Also, depending on party makeup, DPS breaks may not help limit lag at all: for a raid of 8+ hasted TWFs/monks(assuming 2x TOD rings) with bard buffs DPS lag may be immediate.

[Krag]

When the fighter capstone was announced which is 10% more dps for fighters, there wasn't an uproar of people threatening to leave and delete their (non fighter) characters and all that.

This was effectively a 10% dps 'nerf' for non fighter classes, just as it would be if the devs go ahead with putting stwf into the game (which helps fighters more than anyone else) along with these offhand changes. Why is this different?

Garth

Pff... If they announce 20% more dps for mechanics it won't effectively nerf viable prestiges by 20%. Fixing broken class and breaking working one are two different things.

[Gornin]

readin comprehension fail

the nerf isnt tied to the lagfix, its two seperated things


Yes, the nerf is tied to lag fix.

If we are doing less damage, that is less procs to calculate. It is a component of the lag fix, part of it.

That is why all melee toons are being affected by the nerf, just TWF the most, because of their higher CD calcs and proc rate.

[Calebro]

Remember, it's TURBINE you are talking about. Years may pass between admitting a problem and fixing it.

Yes, SoS is owerpowered. No, you can not assume it will be nerfed any time soon. Until they directly say that SoS is going to be fixed, it stays as standard for high-end THF.

After saying this, how can you possibly attempt to use it as a baseline for power?
Power creep = bad.
Power creeps are what CAUSE nerfs to be needed. By using eSoS as a baseline, you'll be adding to the problem, not solving it.

[Visty]

Yes, the nerf is tied to lag fix.

If we are doing less damage, that is less procs to calculate. It is a component of the lag fix, part of it.

That is why all melee toons are being affected by the nerf, just TWF the most, because of their higher CD calcs and proc rate.

nop

the fix to lag is in removing the collision check for offhand attacks

this could be done while leavin twf as it is alone

but they decided to nerf it nevertheless

[Gornin]

Epic Velah too. According to Durnak, who is right up there with Shade when it comes to THF there is DPS lag with TWFers, but not THFers... despite the fact there is clearly large amounts of DPS involved. Velah isn't as bad about it, since the raid mechanics force you to take breaks and breaks fix it but it is yet another example of DPS lag occurring when fighting stationary targets with TWF but not THF.

+1 rep.

My experience is that there is still lag with a bunch of THF, just not as bad, so I can't completely agree with this assessment.

[Timjc86]

That isn't the reason you can't use eSoS for balancing purposes.
ESoS is overpowered, but quite a bit I might add. It needs to be nerfed. You can't balance a game based on an item that is too powerful or you create a power creep that will be unfixable. Unfixable. Repeat: Unfixable.
It doesn't matter how may people have it, or how long it took them to grind for it. That is all irrelevant. What is relevant is that it is overpowered and cannot be used as a baseline.

What is relevant is that the eSoS exists, players have it, and TWF 3/4 BAB classes have to compete against it for DPS spots in groups in end game content.

The fact that not all gameplay happens at level 20 should be kept in mind when balancing combat considering the eSoS, but it should not completely eliminate the eSoS's effect considering balance.

[eonfreon]

nop

the fix to lag is in removing the collision check for offhand attacks

this could be done while leavin twf as it is alone

but they decided to nerf it nevertheless

Essentially correct.
However, one portion of the lag fix also seems to be the proposed additional change of Alacrity from a speed bonus to a "double strike" chance.

That part it seems is touted as both a "lag fix" and a "twf nerf".

[Gornin]

nop

the fix to lag is in removing the collision check for offhand attacks

this could be done while leavin twf as it is alone

but they decided to nerf it nevertheless


Quit trying to act like the speed/proc nerf that affects all melee won't lessen the amount of calculation required, which will also decrease the opportunity for lag. Eladrin said it in the OP.

Also, stop trying to ram that nerfing TWF more than the others is a good thing. Any one who thinks TWF is superior all around to THF is just misinformed. I have both types and I play endgame and epics, and both perform quite well in all settings.

[Krag]

After saying this, how can you possibly attempt to use it as a baseline for power?
Power creep = bad.
Power creeps are what CAUSE nerfs to be needed. By using eSoS as a baseline, you'll be adding to the problem, not solving it.

Easy enough. SoS is a solid fact that I can see all around me. Incoming SoS nerf is something imaginary and unrealistic.

[DrNuegebauer]

No argument.


Do you really think that the implications of this are only going to directly affect those two raids?
This has server-wide implications.
It isn't just the people in the raid that affect the off-hand calculations, but everywhere. It isn't removing (just shy of) 50% of the off-hand calculations in that raid, it is removing them everywhere. If each instance was run from a different source your argument would be valid, but that isn't the case.
Reducing almost 50% of those calculations in *every* instance will help those people that need it.

Less load on the servers = less lag in those raids.

Ah yes of course.

Because it's well known that the servers were specifically set up so that the extra 50% of calculations only impact characters beating on the portals, or Harry, in the shroud.

[Cyr]

When the fighter capstone was announced which is 10% more dps for fighters, there wasn't an uproar of people threatening to leave and delete their (non fighter) characters and all that.

This was effectively a 10% dps 'nerf' for non fighter classes, just as it would be if the devs go ahead with putting stwf into the game (which helps fighters more than anyone else) along with these offhand changes. Why is this different?

Garth

Garth,

This is a very weak strawman. You know that a fighter getting 10% more dps for being pure is not making anyone else have less dps. You also know that a pure fighter was not a large portion of melee builds in the game. However, the change here is a dps nerf to many builds. The fighter change was good because it encouraged more pure fighters (not a super common sight) so it increased variablility in viable builds. This change does the opposite. It hurts existing builds directly and narrows the range of near optimal builds.

[Arlathen]

<Snip Text Detail>

Edit: We're currently thinking of adjusting the numbers to:



2xStrike Bonus Main hand Off hand
No feats 0 20% 100% 20%
TWF 0 +20% 100% 40%
ITWF 0 +20% 100% 60%
GTWF 0 +20% 100% 80%
STWF 0 +20% 100% 100%
Tempest I 0 +10% 100% 90%
Tempest II 0 +10% 100% 100%
Tempest III +5%* 0 105% 100%
Wind IV +10% 0 110% 80%
Zeal +10% 0 110% 80%
Alacrity +10% 0 110% 80%


* Only when wielding two weapons.



@Eladrin

My comments are based upon the updated numbers and the list of the following suggestions. It is also made from the point of view of these changes are intended to reduce DPS Lag first and foremost.

My comments are also given in the light of my support to increase DPS of S&B and THF vs. TWF. I love the TWF fighting style (hell, even my cleric is getting it :P), but I feel for those wanting to do other fighting styles.

1) Removal of the Physics check on off-hand attacks

This makes a great deal of sense, and I personally would support tthis change. This change would not affect characters in any significant in my opinion, even if the main hand attack specifies a missed swing and thus the off hand attack is automatically a miss when it could of hit, its given back evenly when in the space of 0.15 seconds an offhand attack could of missed where the main hand attack hit.

What I can't for the life of me understand is why are not trialling or even implementing this change first without making any other/further changes?? From my point of view, as many changes that can be made with affecting the DPS mechanics you have in place should be done first before toying with the DPS mechanics.

"One change at a time" - its a good rule of testing. If this was implemented, then you would be able to measure the impact on Lag and see if the additional suggested fixes are needed to reduce the DPS Lag.

2) Implementation of the Double-Strike main-hand attack instead of certain speed increases

I have no problem with this, personally. This mechanic could be extended as well to other enhancements/abilities to give double strike bonuses instead of outright speed enhancements.

Some number crunchers may find ways to pervert this for on hit attacks such as Sneaks, Smites and Glancing Hits by maximising the number of bonus attacks, but if careful consideration is given to not allowing 'on-hit' effect get triple whammies all the time for TWF.

As a suggestion, this mechanic could be used to increase DPS of S&B and/or THF styles, such that specific S&B and THF enhancements/items/abilities/feats or whatever could be introduced to improve the Double-strike effect for these fighting styles only, and not TWF.

3) Implemetation of the Proc chance for Off-hand attacks.

My gut reaction to this was an emphatic 'No', changing all my pre-determined 'definite' attacks into a percentage based chance to seem my attacks happen... eurrghh...

Then I took off my TWF-Rulez hat and put on my I-Hate-Lag hat and can understand the idea, see the programming behind the idea and see the lightbulb-flashing-in-the-bath moment that happened when you come up with the idea.

With the standard 80% Proc Chance for all classes available (assuming GTWF), a net reduction of 20% of Off-hand DPS output is good for lag.

4) Implementation of the STWF Feat / Tempest 1/2/3 Changes

I see no need for introducing Superior Two Weapon Fighting as seperate, choosable feat. At All. Adding another feat to all everyone to get 100% Off hand chance is playing into the hands of those classes and builds with feats to spare, while those builds that have managed to squeeze in the three TWF feats but have no space for others will be left behind.

If (when?) the game moves into Epic levels, then it could be possible to introduce the Perfect Two Weapon fighting feat. This would be as the currently suggested STWF, granting another +20% Proc rate chance.

Keep the playing field level on this one.

*Yoda Voice* For Rangers though, different take, suggest I would.

Change the Ranger Off-hand bonus proc chance for Tempest 1/2/3 to 5/5/10% cumulative, so at Tempest 3 they have a full 100% Off-hand attack rate.

The current 10% improvement at level 6 has always been too huge of a bonus in my opinion, and the prestige enhancement needs balancing out to be top end heavy like some others (KotC 3, for example).

Despite the seeming boost to Rangers, they would still lose that 5th Attack overall compared to a current 18th Level Ranger, and thus contribute to the lessening of DPS lag while still offering something unique over a lvl 20 TWF Kensai Fighter.

Perfect Two Weapon Fighting for a Tempest Ranger would be the same - a 20% bonus to offhand attacks - however, as this would be a total 120%, this could be simply be implemented as a 5th Off-hand attack on the final 4th swing. In this way, the feat stays the same for all classes and non-tempest Rangers, but pushes the Tempest ranger up that one final notch - they are the exemplary Two Weapon Fighters, and this in my opinion would reflect it.

[Ollathir]

The Epic SoS is NOT overpowered. Anyone who has used one understands that it is a situational weapon: None or Low DR target, and Low or No fortification target. The epic SoS is AS powerful as a dang EPIC weapon should be.

Or do you presume our epic weapons all turn into epic siroccos?

Since when did actual gameplay experience make it's way into the discussion. Shh, you may start to confuse some folk.

[Ethias]

Garth,

This is a very weak strawman. You know that a fighter getting 10% more dps for being pure is not making anyone else have less dps. You also know that a pure fighter was not a large portion of melee builds in the game. However, the change here is a dps nerf to many builds. The fighter change was good because it encouraged more pure fighters (not a super common sight) so it increased variablility in viable builds. This change does the opposite. It hurts existing builds directly and narrows the range of near optimal builds.

I often find myself disagreeing with things you write, Cyr, but this is spot on.

I am highly considering rerolling my DWing fvs-melee focus to a more general focus, because his DPS is already pretty mediocre. If it is only going to get worse, I might as well just go in a different direction with him. I do not mind a nerf to TWF, but if that nerf is alleviated if you have an extra feat, it is frustrating, because I just do not have the feats to spare for it really. To me, it's not just about total DPS but relative; Cleric/FvS melee already do less damage than primary DPS classes (which I am not saying is a bad thing). Due to our low number of feats, this will only widen the gap (something likely to impact other classes too) even more.

[Aspenor]

I have been gone a few days, this thread has sure grown too fast for me to read it all.

In light of this change, I propose Turbine remove Weapon Finesse from the game, and make characters automatically use dex to hit if it is higher. Of course, nobody in their right mind would play a weapon finesse TWF'r anyway after this change is put in.

[Ethias]

I have been gone a few days, this thread has sure grown too fast for me to read it all.

In light of this change, I propose Turbine remove Weapon Finesse from the game, and make characters automatically use dex to hit if it is higher. Of course, nobody in their right mind would play a weapon finesse TWF'r anyway after this change is put in.

Yeah, I kinda agree with this.

[Aashrym]

Garth,

This is a very weak strawman. You know that a fighter getting 10% more dps for being pure is not making anyone else have less dps. You also know that a pure fighter was not a large portion of melee builds in the game. However, the change here is a dps nerf to many builds. The fighter change was good because it encouraged more pure fighters (not a super common sight) so it increased variablility in viable builds. This change does the opposite. It hurts existing builds directly and narrows the range of near optimal builds.

I think that's his point.

Adding STWF for fighters and rangers doesn't make other classes do less DPS either. It offers a bonus to specific classes that others won't have, like the 10% bonus.

I think he's on something more specific than the nerf in general.

Maybe my spellsinger is suddenly doesn't heal as much because radiant servants are coming!! I've been nerfed by proxy ;) jk

[Angelus_dead]

When the fighter capstone was announced which is 10% more dps for fighters, there wasn't an uproar of people threatening to leave and delete their (non fighter) characters and all that.
Uh, when the Fighter capstone was announced, these other things came in the same release:
Tempest III
Pally Capstone
Barbarian Capstone
Mighty Rage
Frenzied Berserker III
Assassin III
Wind IV

With all of the prime damage-dealer classes getting a buff, of course there wasn't a huge outcry against just one of them.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Garth,

This is a very weak strawman. You know that a fighter getting 10% more dps for being pure is not making anyone else have less dps. You also know that a pure fighter was not a large portion of melee builds in the game. However, the change here is a dps nerf to many builds. The fighter change was good because it encouraged more pure fighters (not a super common sight) so it increased variablility in viable builds. This change does the opposite. It hurts existing builds directly and narrows the range of near optimal builds.

yup you're probably right.

I still think 15% dps isn't going to break builds though. Surely this change will encourage more thf builds when most people on the server are twf?

Garth

[Calebro]

Ah yes of course.

Because it's well known that the servers were specifically set up so that the extra 50% of calculations only impact characters beating on the portals, or Harry, in the shroud.

You're completely missing the big picture here.
When server performance improves overall, it will help to alleviate some of the stress in those instances where it was lagging and improve performance there as well.
That's.... kind of the entire point of the OP.

[SquelchHU]

When the fighter capstone was announced which is 10% more dps for fighters, there wasn't an uproar of people threatening to leave and delete their (non fighter) characters and all that.

This was effectively a 10% dps 'nerf' for non fighter classes, just as it would be if the devs go ahead with putting stwf into the game (which helps fighters more than anyone else) along with these offhand changes. Why is this different?

Garth

1: Fighters were behind in DPS. +10% is a catchup.

2: Raising one classes' DPS does not automatically raise the bar. Lowering one or more classes' DPS does not automatically lower the bar.

Therefore, Fighter +10% DPS doesn't hurt anyone else even if that did put them ahead. But affected characters -10% DPS (it's more than this) does hurt them.

Fighter +10% DPS would only be a nerf to others if enemy HP improved by 10% at the same time.

Affected characters -10% DPS would only NOT be a nerf if enemy HP decreased by exactly the same amount. And even then you still swing slower, detracting from the speedy nature of combat that makes it appealing in the first place.

[Cyr]

yup you're probably right.

I still think 15% dps isn't going to break builds though. Surely this change will encourage more thf builds when most people on the server are twf?

Garth
One major issue there. It will encourage more THF builds, but 95% of them will be 20 barb or 20 fighter due to how the mechanics are set up. Hardly a lot of variety there. It will on the flip side kill a ton of multiclass builds and twf builds for things like bards. Not sure if smite will proc on an offhand hook, if it does some twf pali's will remain for sure though.

[Calebro]

You're completely missing the big picture here.
When server performance improves overall, it will help to alleviate some of the stress in those instances where it was lagging and improve performance there as well.
That's.... kind of the entire point of the OP.

To elaborate:
You're at home on a mediocre system, downloading a large file, surfing the web with 12 different tabs open, running your anti-virus software, and streaming a movie all at the same time.
The movie is constantly stopping to buffer.
You pause the download, and what happens? The movie plays just fine.

The download and the streaming movie were two separate things, but improving your computers performance by reducing the number of things that it needed to do made all of those things work better overall.

This is the same type of situation.

[sir_odin]

My point still stands. Since you were on the European servers until October, you didn't get to experience how the attack rate felt when it was 10% slower.

so does mine, game rules worked for over 3,5 decades with minor adjustments, so apply those rules(almost like today system), readjust AC/HP so we wont hit 95% of the time (not counting glazing). Epic quests/raids dont get silly ToD/Shroud lag.

reinventing core rules, might as well rename the game or even just make another game.

ps
forum date != play start date.
number of post only shows activity on forum, not in game.
don't talk down on people for enjoying the game and not the forum ;)

[Visty]

ps
forum date != play start date.
number of post only shows activity on forum, not in game.
don't talk down on people for enjoying the game and not the forum ;)

borror is on something though
in europe we never had the snail combat they had over here, i experienced it myself
and it was freaking **** slow

[sir_odin]

i've experienced it too, but there has to be something in between. my monk with madstone and wind IV looks like a sugerhigh child in fast forward. at least adjusting the animation time is adjustable and leaves current / adjust current combat intact. when a better server solution appears the can always tweak up the speed.

even making static elemental/allignment damage would help. (ex. holy 7dmg, fire 3, force 5. instead of x rolls)

[SquelchHU]

so does mine, game rules worked for over 3,5 decades with minor adjustments, so apply those rules(almost like today system), readjust AC/HP so we wont hit 95% of the time (not counting glazing). Epic quests/raids dont get silly ToD/Shroud lag.

reinventing core rules, might as well rename the game or even just make another game.

ps
forum date != play start date.
number of post only shows activity on forum, not in game.
don't talk down on people for enjoying the game and not the forum ;)

The D&D rules have never worked from a balance perspective.

Epic Velah and DQ have breaks built in, so if you don't get DPS lag that's why.

...I want glazing. Where is stainer when you need him? :D

[sir_odin]

sorry for grama, the forum doesn't have spell checker, prob because it causes text lag

[Borror0]

so does mine
No, it does not. While on paper a reduction of 10% does not sound like a lot, reducing the attack rate really made the combat less enjoyable. Like Aesop said, it felt like attacking in jello. It does not matter if the rebalance the game or not - the feel is not the same, so it's less fun. It does not matter if you played since January 2006, unless you have had the chance to try the change in question you cannot know how poorly it played and, based on what you told us, you didn't get the chance to try it.

If you need perspective: it was so bad that Turbine fixed it within a week.

forum date != play start date.
number of post only shows activity on forum, not in game.
don't talk down on people for enjoying the game and not the forum ;)
I said nothing about your post count. The join date is the same that you started your game account. I made this account in December 2006, so my join date is December 2006 even though I only created my forum account in January 2007. Unless you tell me that is not your only US DDO account or used someone else's account, there is no way you have had the chance to try the slow combat system we've had in mid-September 2009.