Epic stunner possible?

[gott_ist_tot]

No reply on the combat forum, but on a closer inspection it is, in fact, a character build question.

Now that weighted is going to work with Stunning Fist in update 5, is it possible to make a stunner build for epics? I mean a build, which would allow to reliably land both Stunning Fist and Stunning Blow.

The intuition tells me not, as monk focuses either in str or wis, never both... But maybe I'm missing something? Will mediocre (dunno, 14 + item 6?) wisdom be enough with +10 from weighted to connect even occasionally on epics?

The wis can't be too high as this will probably be split fighter build to get ftr tactics for stunning blow anyway.

Sorry for cross-posting, I'll try to refrain from doing this in the future.

[Impaqt]

No reply on the combat forum, but on a closer inspection it is, in fact, a character build question.

Now that weighted is going to work with Stunning Fist in update 5, is it possible to make a stunner build for epics? I mean a build, which would allow to reliably land both Stunning Fist and Stunning Blow.

The intuition tells me not, as monk focuses either in str or wis, never both... But maybe I'm missing something? Will mediocre (dunno, 14 + item 6?) wisdom be enough with +10 from weighted to connect even occasionally on epics?

The wis can't be too high as this will probably be split fighter build to get ftr tactics for stunning blow anyway.

Sorry for cross-posting, I'll try to refrain from doing this in the future.

I'm currently working ona build with this in mind. My only problem personally is that I really dont enjoy playing Monks.....

THe SF DC is 10+(1/2Monk Level) + Wis Modifier.

20 Wisdon is pretty easy to do so a Pure Monks would be looking at
10+10+5+10 for a 35 DC. Hardly enough to land reliably. but could land a few here and there on some trash mobs.....

If your working with a 30ish STR, we can get right around the same DC on the Stunning blows...

10+10+10 +Temp STR Buffs like Rage, Titans grip, etc...

Still not solid enough...

Its kinda silly that the Proc effect on the weighted wraps is exponentially more benefitial than selectable feats.....

a High Dex build with Weighted wraps still seems like the best choice.

[Chai]

My fighter has a stunning blow in the high 40s low 50s depending on buffs and bursts, and he can land stuns on epic trash mobs pretty well, but not all the time.

For a monk to get stunning fist to the same level without weighted adding to the stun DC would mean having godly wisdom

[Eladrin]

One of the things we're changing in Update 5 is we're reducing the saves of epic trash across the board by 10. We want you to be able to reliably use your DC based tools like special attacks and spells to deal with them, if you're targeting their weak saves.


Its kinda silly that the Proc effect on the weighted wraps is exponentially more benefitial than selectable feats...
It is pretty silly. Weighted weapons used to be just DC boosts (like Vertigo and Shatter); it's unfortunate that the secondary addition to them so overshadows the primary one.

[Cashiry]

Its kinda silly that the Proc effect on the weighted wraps is exponentially more benefitial than selectable feats.....



ya, but who knows, there probably is more to the change than they are letting on... there always is a side effect to any change they make...

[Impaqt]

One of the things we're changing in Update 5 is we're reducing the saves of epic trash across the board by 10. We want you to be able to reliably use your DC based tools like special attacks and spells to deal with them, if you're targeting their weak saves.


It is pretty silly. Weighted weapons used to be just DC boosts (like Vertigo and Shatter); it's unfortunate that the secondary addition to them so overshadows the primary one.
That will help Tremendously.... How bout losing that mysterious +5 across the board in Amrath while yer at it? Asking too much?


ya, but who knows, there probably is more to the change than they are letting on... there always is a side effect to any change they make...

I'm taking him at his word on this... Currently in Epics, players simply avoid trash mobs instead of killing them for potential scrolls in many situations.... Reducing the saves makes a lot of sense.

[Cashiry]

It is pretty silly. Weighted weapons used to be just DC boosts (like Vertigo and Shatter); it's unfortunate that the secondary addition to them so overshadows the primary one.

figured you had to make a change to get them to work with Stunning fist and Stunning blow... Must be adding something to weighted weapons for this to work the way you want it to?

[Chai]

ya, but who knows, there probably is more to the change than they are letting on... there always is a side effect to any change they make...

I'll reserve judgement for that when i see it.

I think if they made weighted actually work on handwraps, the issue would resolve itself for monks in this department. The ONLY thing weighted does on wraps is proc a passive stun. Dwarf Warhammer Kensai seems pretty nice as the race, class and PRE all get additions to tactics if taken, while still being able to use weighted.

[Cashiry]

I'll reserve judgement for that when i see it.

I think if they made weighted actually work on handwraps, the issue would resolve itself for monks in this department. The ONLY thing weighted does on wraps is proc a passive stun. Dwarf Warhammer Kensai seems pretty nice as the race, class and PRE all get additions to tactics if taken, while still being able to use weighted.

True...:)

[Yaga_Nub]

....It is pretty silly. Weighted weapons used to be just DC boosts (like Vertigo and Shatter); it's unfortunate that the secondary addition to them so overshadows the primary one.

So change it. Double the DC boosts and take the random percentage chance to stun away from all items. OR add a percentage chance to trip or sunder with Vertigo and whatever that other useless suffix is.

[Impaqt]

So change it. Double the DC boosts and take the random percentage chance to stun away from all items. OR add a percentage chance to trip or sunder with Vertigo and whatever that other useless suffix is.

Something like

5% provides a 5% chance to stun but the DC benefit is increase to +15?

Reduce the automatic while increasing the feat based.....

[Cashiry]

Something like

5% provides a 5% chance to stun but the DC benefit is increase to +15?

Reduce the automatic while increasing the feat based.....

sounds interesting.. 5% chance to stun and mob has a chance at 15 Fort? save on weighted weapons?

Is that what your saying or for the Feats

[maddmatt70]

One of the things we're changing in Update 5 is we're reducing the saves of epic trash across the board by 10. We want you to be able to reliably use your DC based tools like special attacks and spells to deal with them, if you're targeting their weak saves.


It is pretty silly. Weighted weapons used to be just DC boosts (like Vertigo and Shatter); it's unfortunate that the secondary addition to them so overshadows the primary one.

NOOOOOOO. Do not dumb down epic. A part of the fun was it is somewhat challenging now its going to be about a bunch of wizards casting masshold over and over. Unless you make epic harder somewhere else this is not a good change. A wizard or cleric or bard had to work hard to get a good dc which I was fine with now its going to be a joke.

[Impaqt]

sounds interesting.. 5% chance to stun and mob has a chance at 15 Fort? save on weighted weapons?

Is that what your saying or for the Feats

Hmmm... Let me explain a little better....


5% chance to automatically stun stays the same, just raise the DC boost by +5. so the factor to DC is x3 the weighted percentage rather than x2.

(I was thinking 5% weighted was a 10% chance at first.. I confused myself a little)

[sirgog]

One of the things we're changing in Update 5 is we're reducing the saves of epic trash across the board by 10. We want you to be able to reliably use your DC based tools like special attacks and spells to deal with them, if you're targeting their weak saves.


10 strikes me as a pretty drastic drop.

Mass Hold Monster, cast by a caster with solid but unspectacular equipment (36 casting stat for 32 save DC) currently seems to hit most trash about 50% of the time.

If this jumps to 95% - epics will be dominated by arcanes, as Mass Hold suddenly starts lasting ten times as long as it does now.


Another factor after such a change will be that groups that sail through the trash fights in Epics may be woefully underprepared for what the bosses can do to them...

Have you considered instead splitting the monsters into further categories - easy trash (e.g. Wiz-King Hyenas, the Drow in Offering of Blood) and hitting them with a save penalty, whilst keeping hard trash (scorrow in OOB, WF Sentinels in VON4) as they are now?

[Cashiry]

Hmmm... Let me explain a little better....


5% chance to automatically stun stays the same, just raise the DC boost by +5. so the factor to DC is x3 the weighted percentage rather than x2.

(I was thinking 5% weighted was a 10% chance at first.. I confused myself a little)

gotcha, thx for clarifying

[The_Phenx]

NOOOOOOO. Do not dumb down epic. A part of the fun was it is somewhat challenging now its going to be about a bunch of wizards casting masshold over and over. Unless you make epic harder somewhere else this is not a good change. A wizard or cleric or bard had to work hard to get a good dc which I was fine with now its going to be a joke.

Agreed to an extent. It would be nice if my max str fighter kensai could trip someone with a vertigo kopesh.

And as it stands its already dumbed down.. its just a buncha wizards casrting ottos over and over... at least this will open up some more techniques.

[Impaqt]

gotcha, thx for clarifying

But now that you mention it, adding a save to the "Autostun" might now be a bad idea as long as it was a more than reasonable chance to hit....

Something like 20+ the DC modifier so 5% wraps would wind up at a 35DC(1% would be 23DC)

I dunno.. Probobly complicating it more than it needs to be.. adding even more calculations to the already taxed system.

[maddmatt70]

Agreed to an extent. It would be nice if my max str fighter kensai could trip someone with a vertigo kopesh.

And as it stands its already dumbed down.. its just a buncha wizards casrting ottos over and over... at least this will open up some more techniques.

Its going to be lousy easy which ruins the fun. The way things are setup with epic is for massive repetition, but if its too easy its totally lacking in fun to repeat over and over.

[Cashiry]

But now that you mention it, adding a save to the "Autostun" might now be a bad idea as long as it was a more than reasonable chance to hit....

Something like 20+ the DC modifier so 5% wraps would wind up at a 35DC(1% would be 23DC)

I dunno.. Probobly complicating it more than it needs to be.. adding even more calculations to the already taxed system.


ya, maybe i'm also tyring to read into Eladrin's post... it sounds like he's adding something to weighted weapons... the secondary effect overshadows part....

[Khelden]

10 strikes me as a pretty drastic drop.

Mass Hold Monster, cast by a caster with solid but unspectacular equipment (36 casting stat for 32 save DC) currently seems to hit most trash about 50% of the time.

If this jumps to 95% - epics will be dominated by arcanes, as Mass Hold suddenly starts lasting ten times as long as it does now.


Another factor after such a change will be that groups that sail through the trash fights in Epics may be woefully underprepared for what the bosses can do to them...

Have you considered instead splitting the monsters into further categories - easy trash (e.g. Wiz-King Hyenas, the Drow in Offering of Blood) and hitting them with a save penalty, whilst keeping hard trash (scorrow in OOB, WF Sentinels in VON4) as they are now?

Isn't epic ALREADY dominated by arcanes (and divines at some point...)? I always feel like we, melee, just speed up things... But are very very far of being a must-have...

Maybe they could just give epic mobs an insane spell resistance?

[Cyr]

One of the things we're changing in Update 5 is we're reducing the saves of epic trash across the board by 10.

Huh, so you guys think you overshot by a full half of the d20 dice? That is a fairly huge error. How about you guys just tweak stuff a little at a time instead of these HUGE changes. I mean if you really messed up so bad why would you have a high degree of confidence that your new number is right?

[gott_ist_tot]

Well at least I got my mouth shut on the 'do devs actually read our posts' matter.

Epics are godly boring unless you devise some techniques to speed it up. Actually the thing which makes DDO the game for me is leaving room for tactics.

As far as my knowledge goes, the best tchnique is already slanted heavily towards arcane. So heavily it allows them to solo epics, no other class can do it so effectively. I don't think reducing saves by 10 will change this more in their favor.

If anything, this will provide an alternative to arcanes, by allowing more input from tactics speced characters. Until now I thought of epic-ing melees as just another way of boosting WoF damage - nice, but you acn do without it.

[Hydro]

This change should not be going in, please buff the abilities instead of netting epics. Let's keep epics challenging...

[Josh]

http://image62.webshots.com/162/1/73/61/497717361nKWnxJ_ph.jpg

[Angelus_dead]

It is pretty silly. Weighted weapons used to be just DC boosts (like Vertigo and Shatter); it's unfortunate that the secondary addition to them so overshadows the primary one.
Honestly things like Weighted, Radiance, and even Vorpal should've had a fortitude saving throw from the beginning. Probably a real high save that non-epic monsters hardly ever pass (and where vorpal gets hp damage on a pass).

[Angelus_dead]

One of the things we're changing in Update 5 is we're reducing the saves of epic trash across the board by 10.
So you're getting a lot of complaints today that this kind of reduction is too much. Here's a suggestion for a compromise:
1. Create a kind of defensive effect that prevents a natural 1 from auto-failing saving throws within a corresponding category.
2. Create a bunch of buffs that give a large (+10) bonus to a kind of saving throw (such as Fear, Poison, or Death) and also prevent auto-fails on a 1.
3. Include buffs like that as part of Epic Ward.

In particular, things like that could allow content designers to tweak monsters' vulnerability to Hold Monster and Banshee Wail, without necessarily changing their saves on other Will and Fort attacks.

[Shade]

One of the things we're changing in Update 5 is we're reducing the saves of epic trash across the board by 10. We want you to be able to reliably use your DC based tools like special attacks and spells to deal with them, if you're targeting their weak saves.


10>!?!!? TEN?!!? Tell me that's a typo.

BECAUSE THAT IS WAY TOO MUCH. Why can't you ever do things in small steps to test things out.. You always go way over board one way or the other. ugh.

-10 saves would mean the worst of the worst caster ever built, with a horrible int/cha score, zero tomes, no exceptional, no focus, no gear, no nothing - would be landing spells almost all the time. That's just wrong.
Epic says when you enter "for the best of the best"
Trash mobs having horrible saves isn't going to challenge the best of the best. And to quote a friend of yours "no challenge, no fun"

Currently most quests are balanced so that a MAX DC enchantment focus'd caster (talking somewhere in the 50 range with full past lives) already CANNOT be saved against. Monster shave to roll a 20 in most cases. We don't need lower saves, there low enough. A non-tr wiz/sorc can get a DC in the 43-46 range, and land 80% of the time against the harder enemies, 95% against the easy ones, thats perfectly fair and challenging.

Meanwhile Barbarians can get Stun DC's in the 50+ range easily.. Fort saves on some mobs are noticably higher so there are sitll some minor amount of saving in taht range.

So I could see a reduction of 2-5 saves to make it easier for the lower stun DC classes to get a chance to stun. But 10? 10??!!!?!?! Thats insanity.


I can understand where the complaints come from - some classes like monks, bards, rangers, paladins cannot reach the same level of DC's that more specialiazed classes like wizards, sorcs and Barbarians. But making it so everything the stronger classe use works 95% even with poor equipment, while the othe classes get 40-50% success isn't the right way to do it.

Why not simply give the other classes that don't fair so well both a reason to run epic, and a way to contribute better, you can fix 2 problems at once like this, and not create another problem.
Example: For monks:
Add new handwraps that further increase there stun DC's (but not weighted %) Example could be some Epic weighted 5% handwraps in the new epics, that are +6, weighted 5% (+10 stun) and exceptional +4 to your stunning fist/blow DC. And perhaps some more dmg like forceburst. Red slot to allow 1 dmg type bypass, or +7 upgrade.
Or get monks to run epic sentinels by making the epic jidz teka more worthwhile by further upgrading the stance son the epic version. Perhaps the lesser used stances like earth or water could grant a large bonus to ALL of your monk combat DCs.

Paladins.. Years ago you said something about designing the holy avenger. Put it in, Epic style or even non epic could be the first slashing weapon with weighted on it, perhaps 4% and an additional +4 exception to stun. Epic version DPS similar to the epic sword of shadow - just less crits but more base and stronger vs EO/Undead. Perhaps 4d6 +10 19-20/x4, Ultimate epic holy burst (4d6 base good damage, 8d6 on crits, Undead and Evil outsiders on destroyed on a vorpal strike, if they are immune to death effects, they instead take 100 good damage) Red slot, Colorless slot

Way too much, way too fast. Not a good way to update the game.

So please Eladrin, either use an alternate solution, or just try lowering them by 5, then if people still complain and you feel thats still not enough, go with 10 in update 6.

[Maegin]

10>!?!!? TEN?!!? Tell me that's a typo.

BECAUSE THAT IS WAY TOO MUCH. Why can't you ever do things in small steps to test things out.. You always go way over board one way or the other. ugh.

-10 saves would mean the worst of the worst caster ever built, with a horrible int/cha score, zero tomes, no exceptional, no focus, no gear, no nothing - would be landing spells almost all the time. That's just wrong.
Epic says when you enter "for the best of the best"
Trash mobs having horrible saves isn't going to challenge the best of the best. And to quote a friend of yours "no challenge, no fun"

Currently most quests are balanced so that a MAX DC enchantment focus'd caster (talking somewhere in the 50 range with full past lives) already CANNOT be saved against. Monster shave to roll a 20 in most cases. We don't need lower saves, there low enough. A non-tr wiz/sorc can get a DC in the 43-46 range, and land 80% of the time against the harder enemies, 95% against the easy ones, thats perfectly fair and challenging.

Meanwhile Barbarians can get Stun DC's in the 50+ range easily.. Fort saves on some mobs are noticably higher so there are sitll some minor amount of saving in taht range.

So I could see a reduction of 2-5 saves to make it easier for the lower stun DC classes to get a chance to stun. But 10? 10??!!!?!?! Thats insanity.


I can understand where the complaints come from - some classes like monks, bards, rangers, paladins cannot reach the same level of DC's that more specialiazed classes like wizards, sorcs and Barbarians. But making it so everything the stronger classe use works 95% even with poor equipment, while the othe classes get 40-50% success isn't the right way to do it.

Why not simply give the other classes that don't fair so well both a reason to run epic, and a way to contribute better, you can fix 2 problems at once like this, and not create another problem.
Example: For monks:
Add new handwraps that further increase there stun DC's (but not weighted %) Example could be some Epic weighted 5% handwraps in the new epics, that are +6, weighted 5% (+10 stun) and exceptional +4 to your stunning fist/blow DC. And perhaps some more dmg like forceburst. Red slot to allow 1 dmg type bypass, or +7 upgrade.
Or get monks to run epic sentinels by making the epic jidz teka more worthwhile by further upgrading the stance son the epic version. Perhaps the lesser used stances like earth or water could grant a large bonus to ALL of your monk combat DCs.

Paladins.. Years ago you said something about designing the holy avenger. Put it in, Epic style or even non epic could be the first slashing weapon with weighted on it, perhaps 4% and an additional +4 exception to stun. Epic version DPS similar to the epic sword of shadow - just less crits but more base and stronger vs EO/Undead. Perhaps 4d6 +10 19-20/x4, Ultimate epic holy burst (4d6 base good damage, 8d6 on crits, Undead and Evil outsiders on destroyed on a vorpal strike, if they are immune to death effects, they instead take 100 good damage) Red slot, Colorless slot

Way too much, way too fast. Not a good way to update the game.

So please Eladrin, either use an alternate solution, or just try lowering them by 5, then if people still complain and you feel thats still not enough, go with 10 in update 6.

Oh, i do like the idea of water stance increasing special DC's. And and the water portion of Jiz bracers giving +4 to SF/QP instead of a lame para effect :/

[sephiroth1084]

OR add a percentage chance to trip or sunder with Vertigo and whatever that other useless suffix is.
I made this suggestion a month or two ago: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=220572

Lower saves by 10 seems a bit extreme; my wizard is 2-5 points from max sustainable DC for enchantment spells (Mass Hold, Dance) and tends to land these spells fairly often. On that front, monster saves have felt like they're in the appropriate range. Lowering the trash saves by 10 seems like it will just hand epic questing to casters. That will be fun, sure, but that will kind of obviate the need for Weighted or Vertigo weapons anyway.

[sephiroth1084]

10>!?!!? TEN?!!? Tell me that's a typo.

BECAUSE THAT IS WAY TOO MUCH. Why can't you ever do things in small steps to test things out.. You always go way over board one way or the other. ugh.

-10 saves would mean the worst of the worst caster ever built, with a horrible int/cha score, zero tomes, no exceptional, no focus, no gear, no nothing - would be landing spells almost all the time. That's just wrong.
Epic says when you enter "for the best of the best"
Trash mobs having horrible saves isn't going to challenge the best of the best. And to quote a friend of yours "no challenge, no fun"

Currently most quests are balanced so that a MAX DC enchantment focus'd caster (talking somewhere in the 50 range with full past lives) already CANNOT be saved against. Monster shave to roll a 20 in most cases. We don't need lower saves, there low enough. A non-tr wiz/sorc can get a DC in the 43-46 range, and land 80% of the time against the harder enemies, 95% against the easy ones, thats perfectly fair and challenging.

Meanwhile Barbarians can get Stun DC's in the 50+ range easily.. Fort saves on some mobs are noticably higher so there are sitll some minor amount of saving in taht range.

So I could see a reduction of 2-5 saves to make it easier for the lower stun DC classes to get a chance to stun. But 10? 10??!!!?!?! Thats insanity.


I can understand where the complaints come from - some classes like monks, bards, rangers, paladins cannot reach the same level of DC's that more specialiazed classes like wizards, sorcs and Barbarians. But making it so everything the stronger classe use works 95% even with poor equipment, while the othe classes get 40-50% success isn't the right way to do it.

Why not simply give the other classes that don't fair so well both a reason to run epic, and a way to contribute better, you can fix 2 problems at once like this, and not create another problem.
Example: For monks:
Add new handwraps that further increase there stun DC's (but not weighted %) Example could be some Epic weighted 5% handwraps in the new epics, that are +6, weighted 5% (+10 stun) and exceptional +4 to your stunning fist/blow DC. And perhaps some more dmg like forceburst. Red slot to allow 1 dmg type bypass, or +7 upgrade.
Or get monks to run epic sentinels by making the epic jidz teka more worthwhile by further upgrading the stance son the epic version. Perhaps the lesser used stances like earth or water could grant a large bonus to ALL of your monk combat DCs.

Paladins.. Years ago you said something about designing the holy avenger. Put it in, Epic style or even non epic could be the first slashing weapon with weighted on it, perhaps 4% and an additional +4 exception to stun. Epic version DPS similar to the epic sword of shadow - just less crits but more base and stronger vs EO/Undead. Perhaps 4d6 +10 19-20/x4, Ultimate epic holy burst (4d6 base good damage, 8d6 on crits, Undead and Evil outsiders on destroyed on a vorpal strike, if they are immune to death effects, they instead take 100 good damage) Red slot, Colorless slot

Way too much, way too fast. Not a good way to update the game.

So please Eladrin, either use an alternate solution, or just try lowering them by 5, then if people still complain and you feel thats still not enough, go with 10 in update 6.
Yeah, really have to agree with Shade on this one.

My caster's DC:
10 base
+16 (42 Int)
+2 Dreamspitter
+1 SF: Enchant
+9 Heightened spells
____
38 and epic monsters with weak Will saves seem to fail over half the time

+1 Spellsinger
+1 Yugo pot (dangerous as hell to use, so I only consume one on rare occasions)
__
40

+1 wizard PL
+1 bard PL
+1 (+4 tome + Litany of the Dead)
+1 Greater SF: Enchant
__
44 projected sustainable enchantment DC

-10 to saves is going to mean that my character without the PL and extra gear is going to land every Hold and Dancing Ball she throws even before hammering out the rest of the DC stuff over a few TRs.

[ahpook]

ya, maybe i'm also tyring to read into Eladrin's post... it sounds like he's adding something to weighted weapons... the secondary effect overshadows part....

He isn't adding something, the primary effect was to add to the DC (+10 to sunning blow DC). The secondary effect was a % chance to stun on a successful hit.

TO lessen the secondary effect, as A_D has suggested, institute a saving throw. Then make weapons such as vertigo and shatter also have a secondary effect with a saving throw to make them more attractive. I don't know if the DC bonus has to be upped as Impaqt suggested. +10 already seems pretty good.

[Riggs]

...
Currently most quests are balanced so that a MAX DC enchantment focus'd caster (talking somewhere in the 50 range with full past lives) already CANNOT be saved against. Monster shave to roll a 20 in most cases. We don't need lower saves, there low enough. A non-tr wiz/sorc can get a DC in the 43-46 range, and land 80% of the time against the harder enemies, 95% against the easy ones, thats perfectly fair and challenging.
...

Wf wiz, 18 int, +2 tome, +3 enhancements, +5 levels, +2 capstone, +6 weapon/item and +3 exceptional weapon/ring hits a 39 int. +3 tome and /or +1 litany or +4 tome say after grinding and 40 int.

40 int + 1 dc napkin, +2 for feats + heighten; 10+9+3+15 = 37 dc for a capped, 'normal' raid geared wizard.

Curious where a non-tr wizard is going to pick up to 9 more dc (18 more int say), as you seem to imply it is easy. Also curious how a couple TR's (even with 3 wizard past life feats for +1 dc), adds up to a 50 dc as well. A drow, with yugo and store pots, and +4 tome, and litany, seems to hit maybe a 46 dc even with 3 wiz TR - and that in itself is a f-ing stupid amount of grinding just to be able to start landing spells at level 20 on any kind of regular basis - and its still not 50dc.

Excluding store bought potions and abbot gear, as no 'easy' calculation is allowed to include cash/points and 20-40 runs of a raid many people still dont run.

TR should help, not be a required benchmark just to run new content. Ditto 'buying' your way into more dc.

No matter what people want to claim about 'best of the best' yadda yadda - there is one simple fact that escapes their notice.

Epic content is not 'over level 20' as in the books - it is level 20 content. It is what we are getting instead of new quests - new level 20 quests.

Level 20 content that cannot be run by 'non-maxed out 60 abbot raid, 8 tr' characters - or rather having level 20 characters unable to use any abilities or spells even with the maximum possible stats not counting store items and massive xp grind trs is just insulting.

People seem to bash the idea of a mass hold spell landing as 'it is all about the arcanes'...umm really? Like after mod 4-5 when casters actually could solo and kill everything in the game with a couple spells? No. It is just a limited way to allow maxed out melees the chance to beat something down with massive hp and not also take 4 clerics to keep them alive while getting hit back for massive damage. A mass hold without a few good melee types to jump in isnt going to finish the quest.

A 500 hp player doing 40-50 damage a hit, or 80+ twf, fighting a 8000 hp monster that hits harder simply means the cleric gets to drink lots of pots without good cc. A caster isnt going to be running around casting Fod and Wail like everywhere else. Sure sounds like fun...maybe someone will notice one day all the epic lfms that go up - looking for healers. Yay epic pugs! Sign my cleric up!

Melee combat dcs of course should go up, and a way to make dex substitute for str for things like tripping maybe with finesse - and say make player trip as good as monster trip i.e be able to trip on every hit, and last more than 1-2 seconds.

I mean, a fighter gets a feat that adds +1 to something. A caster levels up and gets insta kill spells they can cast 20-40 times per shrine - which is more useful? Or mass cc, or mass damage etc. High level feats and enhancements should be on par with high level spells. High level classes should be getting powerful abilities - and currently only casters do so people need casters to get most things done in epic say.

And Amrath saves need to be looked at too.

We dont need another d20, we need stuff that actually starts falling in the normal curve of what is achievable in the current game.

**edit
For the record -10 is maybe too much to start with for will saves. However standing around watching melees beat on a held monster gets pretty boring after a while too - instead of just making one thing easier classes need to be balanced more, and more options for casters need to be added to do something other than cast a couple spells and then hide. Fort saves are probably too high on most things anyway.

[Riggs]

He isn't adding something, the primary effect was to add to the DC (+10 to sunning blow DC). The secondary effect was a % chance to stun on a successful hit.

TO lessen the secondary effect, as A_D has suggested, institute a saving throw. Then make weapons such as vertigo and shatter also have a secondary effect with a saving throw to make them more attractive. I don't know if the DC bonus has to be upped as Impaqt suggested. +10 already seems pretty good.

+10 for a weapon is fine.

What is missing is melee enhancements and feats that actually matter at high levels.

Mass hold vs trip. Mass hold and auto crit vs an area vs a lower dc stun that ...if it hits, still gets a save and only hits one monster.

And using a +10 stun weapon means your NOT using your good dps weapons. Which means every single hit that isnt a stun is lower damage than you could be doing - because even a 40 str character isnt going to be stunning anything useful with their 'overpowered' 25 dc stun save.

[Eladiun]

Does this count?

http://realdirtymets.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/stone-cold-stunner.jpg

[sephiroth1084]

+10 for a weapon is fine.

What is missing is melee enhancements and feats that actually matter at high levels.

Mass hold vs trip. Mass hold and auto crit vs an area vs a lower dc stun that ...if it hits, still gets a save and only hits one monster.

And using a +10 stun weapon means your NOT using your good dps weapons. Which means every single hit that isnt a stun is lower damage than you could be doing - because even a 40 str character isnt going to be stunning anything useful with their 'overpowered' 25 dc stun save.
I agree.

One problem that exists with melee DCs is that there is just no very good way of improving them.

The on-weapon effects take up a DPS slot (really think we should see these effects start making their way onto shields and other items...maybe as crafting rituals).

The enhancements that some classes/races receive are incredibly expensive for fairly minor benefits: 1 AP for +1 DC is reasonable, but 4 AP for +DC is prohibitively expensive and weak. That barbarians tend to get higher DCs for trip and Stun than fighters who have spent oodles of AP on these abilities is problematic, but so is the fact that anyone but these characters can't really attain enough of a DC to matter.

And balancing them is difficult, since in some content lowish DCs can totally dominate a quest, while in others even moderate to high DCs have virtually no effect.

Then there's the fact that, not only do these abilities require AP investment, and item/DPS investment, but also require one or two feats (and CE as a prereq for Improved Trip basically makes that a fairly undesirable feat for most characters).

[Borror0]

I made this suggestion a month or two ago: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=220572
I was looking for that thread, to link to it. Apparently, I'm too late to the party to act like if I'm smart.

Honestly things like Weighted, Radiance, and even Vorpal should've had a fortitude saving throw from the beginning. Probably a real high save that non-epic monsters hardly ever pass (and where vorpal gets hp damage on a pass).
Exactly.

It is pretty silly. Weighted weapons used to be just DC boosts (like Vertigo and Shatter); it's unfortunate that the secondary addition to them so overshadows the primary one.
As a slight tangent to that point, notice how Vertigo and Shatter are unpopular whereas Weighted is actually used. Part of that does come from the fact that Stunning blow is the best out of the three feats but the secondary effect does play a large portion in it.

With that in mind, I suggest the following weapon enchantment:
+x Strategy: Increases the wearer's Stunning Blow, Trip, Hamstring and Sunder DC by +X (enhancement bonus). In addition, it gives a X% chance to stun, trip, slow or reduces the target Armor Class by 5 for six seconds.

It's Weighted, Vertigo, Hamstring and Shatter all in one (which means they should be removed from the loot tables), with a x% chance to hit the target with Stunning Blow, Trip, Hamstring or Sunder for six seconds. The chances went up from Weighted's (X/2)% because it is diluted by the other weaker effects and the duration of all effects is capped at 6s, because more than six seconds of Stunning Blow is overpowered.

[Eladrin]

try lowering them by 5, then if people still complain and you feel thats still not enough, go with 10 in update 6.
We're considering this sort of more cautious tiered rollout. Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

[shadosatblackphoenix]

Ahh, the end game blues, that all MMORPGs that focus on endgame (instead of giving good reasons to start over...DDO's better than most on that though), have.

The more you can specialize or focus in a category, the more problem you have balancing the game: You either please the general populace, or the vocal "Lol I have 42 DC on my spells EASY" crowd.

Personally my wizard's DCs are:

10 base
20 int (drow) + 2 tome + 6 item + 3 enhancement + 2 capstone + 5 levels = +14
+2 from dreamsplitter
+2 from feats
+9 heighten
=
37. Could squeeze a bit more with an easy to get +int greensteel, i guess, but even then in Offering of Blood Epic, I land about 1/3, if that (that is, 1/3 mobs if i toss an AOE).

It sounds great, and with the -10 DC it would land about like it does in Amrath areas right now, which may sound overpowered, but its not like you can cast that over and over. There's SP limitations here that melees don't have

Then you have barbarians who can crit stuff for 370-400 damage using one of the pre-defined builds at character creation with nothing more than a Min 2 greataxe, then think that if i want to do Epic ADQ I have to spend quite a few SP pots to last the fight...

Sure, now a perfectly speced out arcane decked out in raid loot will dominate, but a melee with the same amount of effort put into it just mows through stuff in there too.

Keep in mind that in the end, the D&D system revolves around a D20, so there's a very very fine line between "It lands all the time", and "it never lands", which means the devs pretty much have no choice: they either make it challenge for the high end players, or make it too easy for them. There's virtually no room for in between.

Reminds me of the thread about trap DCs in VoN...people complaining how it was way too easy now, but the thread described some pretty serious investments to get it to be "too easy".

[REALb0r3d]

We're considering this sort of more cautious tiered rollout. Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

You guys are awesome. I'd just like to know if this decision was as a result of this thread or something you were already considering.

They're listening to us guys. I'm going to stop complaining.
Honestly.

Mostly. :D

[BlackSteel]

We're considering this sort of more cautious tiered rollout. Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

excellent, -10 would make me feel like i'm just wasting time collecting fighter PL's on my barbarian.

but even with it adjusted at -5, an end game barb will be able to stun nearly all of the epic trash mobs 95% of the time w/o using a weighted weapon. But as others have mentioned, whats the point, as an arcane will simply be able to mass hold or F2S everything now with ease.

[Auran82]

excellent, -10 would make me feel like i'm just wasting time collecting fighter PL's on my barbarian.

but even with it adjusted at -5, an end game barb will be able to stun nearly all of the epic trash mobs 95% of the time w/o using a weighted weapon. But as others have mentioned, whats the point, as an arcane will simply be able to mass hold or F2S everything now with ease.

This is also a side effect of their chosen implementation of Epic.

Had it been a separate checkbox they could have had Epic Hard or Elite as it is now and had Epic normal with the lower saves (and probably lower hp/damage etc) and scaled the chances for seals/shard/scrolls to drop depending on difficulty with a differing number of epic token shards on each difficulty.

Hell, they could even allow say level 18 - 20 into Epic Normal, 19 - 20 into Epic hard and restrict Epic Elite to 20s, give each of them a first time bonus and a separate repetition counter, wishful thinking, but it would mean they could release a level 5 pack with an epic mode and instant level 18 - 20 content as well. Hell, lets have Casual Epic which is pretty much the dungeon scaled to level 20 with no level requirement for entering, no epic loot or tokens pretty much just another option for high level characters to run for xp, with a difficulty around Amrath on Hard. Would give people approaching 20 a taste of where that dungeon is heading for epic.

Doing it that way would give them more of an option for balancing as they wouldn't be trying to fit every type of player with a level 20 character into one box, which is just not possible.

[sephiroth1084]

This is also a side effect of their chosen implementation of Epic.

Had it been a separate checkbox they could have had Epic Hard or Elite as it is now and had Epic normal with the lower saves (and probably lower hp/damage etc) and scaled the chances for seals/shard/scrolls to drop depending on difficulty with a differing number of epic token shards on each difficulty.

Hell, they could even allow say level 18 - 20 into Epic Normal, 19 - 20 into Epic hard and restrict Epic Elite to 20s, give each of them a first time bonus and a separate repetition counter, wishful thinking, but it would mean they could release a level 5 pack with an epic mode and instant level 18 - 20 content as well. Hell, lets have Casual Epic which is pretty much the dungeon scaled to level 20 with no level requirement for entering, no epic loot or tokens pretty much just another option for high level characters to run for xp, with a difficulty around Amrath on Hard. Would give people approaching 20 a taste of where that dungeon is heading for epic.

Doing it that way would give them more of an option for balancing as they wouldn't be trying to fit every type of player with a level 20 character into one box, which is just not possible.
A_D has been pushing this idea here and there since epic hit, and I agreed with him then, and agree no less so with you now.

This would be a much better solution to the change to epic token drops coming down the pipe, and would open up more content to more people for quite a bit less dev time than making new content (not necessarily much better, but a little bit).

[Auran82]

A_D has been pushing this idea here and there since epic hit, and I agreed with him then, and agree no less so with you now.

This would be a much better solution to the change to epic token drops coming down the pipe, and would open up more content to more people for quite a bit less dev time than making new content (not necessarily much better, but a little bit).

Changing epic in a way similar to what has been suggested (not sure of exactly what ADs suggestions were or if they are similar to mine) would mean that every adventure pack they release, if they add the epic option, content is automatically added into the 17 - 20 rough patch for TRs (especially TR 2+s)

In some ways would this be a cheap way out of making that level content? Sure. Should this replace all content of that level? I don't think so, but at the same time if they were to release another shroud like pack (around 4 level 16 flagging quests with a raid) it would essentially double the worth of the pack. They could also do silly things like more raids in the mid levels which also come with an engame version.

[tinyelvis]

Currently, a caster pretty much uses Hold Monster and/or Firewall. If Hold monster breaks, then another can be easily cast. I really don't see the big deal if this spell effect is enhanced or extended. Dropping DC's won't really change that. In fact, they really won't change much wrt casters as far as I can tell. Perhaps more casters (talking ftp types here) can start being effective, but honestly who cares there. Its probably good for business if they are included.

Perhaps you can land a FTS easier, but why bother when you can mass effect with web or enchantment. What DC spell will really be any more effective that could not already easily be re-cast currently by a moderately spec'd caster? Unless death spells are available again, I really don't see how this changes things for at least casters.




10>........

Currently most quests are balanced so that a MAX DC enchantment focus'd caster (talking somewhere in the 50 range with full past lives) already CANNOT be saved against. Monster shave to roll a 20 in most cases. We don't need lower saves, there low enough. A non-tr wiz/sorc can get a DC in the 43-46 range, and land 80% of the time against the harder enemies, 95% against the easy ones, thats perfectly fair and challenging.
.................................

In case the game designers don't realize (I am sure they do) this is mostly nonsense. First off, Shade doesnt even know what the DC's are for epic mobs (ask him..see if he will tell you), until he does, he cant really comment on what is an appropriate level (except anecdotally and we all know how reliable he is in that department). Second, if a sorcerer had every piece of equipment known to man and available in the ddo game that buffs his DC, he can get about a before TR 42 DC (and this includes 1 minute house D potions which are hardly sustained DC and should not even be counted). I can't imagine how to achieve the rediculous number of 50 even if you past life a wiz before you become a sorcerer.

I think you missed your calling and should get a Job on the UN commission for global warming.

[ahpook]

We're considering this sort of more cautious tiered rollout. Thanks for all the feedback everyone.

While the more cautious approach is to be applauded have you considered the same -d20 opposing roll that you are planning to apply to monsters attack rolls? That gives an average reduction but leaves the range larger. It would seem to be a good fit here as well.

[Pyromaniac]

Forget the cautious rollout as proposed by the pro-melee posters. It would actually be nice for more than 1 arcane caster to be a benefit in all epic quests/raids.

Go -10 or nothing at all. Or bring back stacking firewalls from multiple casters.

[sephiroth1084]

Forget the cautious rollout as proposed by the pro-melee posters. It would actually be nice for more than 1 arcane caster to be a benefit in all epic quests/raids.

Go -10 or nothing at all. Or bring back stacking firewalls from multiple casters.
I'm thinking you don't play many epics. I've done most of the desert and VoN series with 2 casters (and even 3) in a group, and things went pretty smoothly. More importantly, resource usage was down, because the casters could alternate duties.

A -10 to saves will just make having 2 casters even less desirable since one caster's mana will go much further, as everything they come across will be failing saving throws.

Someone above (I think A_D with another gem) suggested coming up with ways of giving monsters saves vs. specific types of effects, rather than either immunities or bonuses/penalties across the board, which would allow the devs to tweak monsters' susceptibility to various effects (ie. melee tactics) sot hat a variety of strategies are viable without unbalancing the whole system.

When I run through VoN 1, my Holds tend to land 80% of the time or more. In OoB that is more like 25-40% of the time. In Wiz King I Halt all the skeletons, web the golems (50-90% success I'd say), and firewall the heck out of nearly everything.

Epic has the same problem that our penal system does: those in charge haven't been able to figure out what it should be: should epic be a difficulty mode above elite, designed for only very solid players/groups to have a chance at success, or should it simply be regarded as level 20 content, suitable for anyone?

If the former, then some things need to become more difficult in many of the quests (some still would need to become easier by a little bit), and if the latter, it would make much more sense for "epic" to gain a Normal, Hard and Elite mode so that it can be tailored to a wider audience.

[Guder]

Someone above (I think A_D with another gem) suggested coming up with ways of giving monsters saves vs. specific types of effects, rather than either immunities or bonuses/penalties across the board, which would allow the devs to tweak monsters' susceptibility to various effects (ie. melee tactics) sot hat a variety of strategies are viable without unbalancing the whole system.

When I run through VoN 1, my Holds tend to land 80% of the time or more. In OoB that is more like 25-40% of the time. In Wiz King I Halt all the skeletons, web the golems (50-90% success I'd say), and firewall the heck out of nearly everything.


Wouldn't it be a reasonable solution to raise the 'Enhancement line' value of Feat/Skill specific DCs? Instead of monkeying with monsters' saves to get the desired effect?

If the outcome desired is for a 20 Fighter to be able to 'regularly' land a 'Stunning Blow' effect on an Epic mob...then shouldn't the Fighters' Tier I, II, II, IV Enhancements simply add more than a +1 to the Skill?

Make it graduated ...Tier I = +1, Tier II = +4, Tier III = +8, Tier IV = +13 (value how many APs you have to spend to get it).


Might be a simpler approach and each Enhancement line can be tweaked independently without the 'unintended consequences' of lowering mobs' saves across the board.

[ahpook]

Wouldn't it be a reasonable solution to raise the 'Enhancement line' value of Feat/Skill specific DCs? Instead of monkeying with monsters' saves to get the desired effect?

If the outcome desired is for a 20 Fighter to be able to 'regularly' land a 'Stunning Blow' effect on an Epic mob...then shouldn't the Fighters' Tier I, II, II, IV Enhancements simply add more than a +1 to the Skill?

Make it graduated ...Tier I = +1, Tier II = +4, Tier III = +8, Tier IV = +13 (value how many APs you have to spend to get it).


Might be a simpler approach and each Enhancement line can be tweaked independently without the 'unintended consequences' of lowering mobs' saves across the board.
If you target certain bonuses for epic by making them stronger then those abilities become over effective in non-epic content. If the problem is balance in epic it's best to tackle the problem there. But you can do something similar by reducing saves and then giving epic monsters bonuses against certain schools of spells.

[Guder]

If you target certain bonuses for epic by making them stronger then those abilities become over effective in non-epic content. If the problem is balance in epic it's best to tackle the problem there. But you can do something similar by reducing saves and then giving epic monsters bonuses against certain schools of spells.

I appreciate your reasoning toward a targeted area.
I got a sense from Eladrin's post though that alot of the current 'feat' skills are considered to need tweaking. I don't know that I would value 'trip' or 'sunder' or even 'stunning blow' as being 'over effective-or even somewhat effective' in any level appropriate content of the game at this time...after about Gianthold, trip, stun and others lose most any reliability.
I would like to see a broader range of useful abilities...even tho a good 5% weapon is a highly specific and useful tool.

[sirgog]

Wouldn't it be a reasonable solution to raise the 'Enhancement line' value of Feat/Skill specific DCs? Instead of monkeying with monsters' saves to get the desired effect?

If the outcome desired is for a 20 Fighter to be able to 'regularly' land a 'Stunning Blow' effect on an Epic mob...then shouldn't the Fighters' Tier I, II, II, IV Enhancements simply add more than a +1 to the Skill?

Make it graduated ...Tier I = +1, Tier II = +4, Tier III = +8, Tier IV = +13 (value how many APs you have to spend to get it).


Might be a simpler approach and each Enhancement line can be tweaked independently without the 'unintended consequences' of lowering mobs' saves across the board.

I think this is the way to go.

A dedicated tactics fighter would become viable again in Epics with such enhancements, yet it wouldn't buff Arcanes into the stratosphere.

[sephiroth1084]

Wouldn't it be a reasonable solution to raise the 'Enhancement line' value of Feat/Skill specific DCs? Instead of monkeying with monsters' saves to get the desired effect?

If the outcome desired is for a 20 Fighter to be able to 'regularly' land a 'Stunning Blow' effect on an Epic mob...then shouldn't the Fighters' Tier I, II, II, IV Enhancements simply add more than a +1 to the Skill?

Make it graduated ...Tier I = +1, Tier II = +4, Tier III = +8, Tier IV = +13 (value how many APs you have to spend to get it).


Might be a simpler approach and each Enhancement line can be tweaked independently without the 'unintended consequences' of lowering mobs' saves across the board.
I think this approach ends up presenting three problems:

First, as others have said, by balancing something in general when trying to fix something specific, we'd end up with over-powered (in this case) tactics DCs for all of the non-epic content. The solution is too broad.

Second, this solution only targets a small subset of the characters who may want to use tactics; it doesn't make taking Stunning Blow or Improved Trip or Stunning Fist any more attractive for monks, barbarians, paladins or... As it is only benefiting the fighter (and perhaps WF and dwarves). The solution is too narrow.

Finally, this sort of solution does nothing for giving the developers tool for working on future releases. This may be similar to point one, but it is distinct in that if the devs develop some new tech for tweaking monster's stats, that tech cab be applied to other content--maybe they want some monsters to basically be immune to stunning blow, but not Fort-based spells, or whatever. And this is more changeable than tweaking the values of the tactics enhancements since, if some problem arises, they can do behind the scenes alterations rather than potentially angering some players by nerfing their stuff.