Increase Handraps Reach

[Deamus]

Devs I really believe you should consider to increase the hanndraps reach for these reasons :

1) When monks chase a mob with handraps is almost impossible to successfully hit it cause you cannot reach it..... the only way to hit it is to be in front of him which is completely wrong .
2) Handraps users are in big disadvantage against other weapon users on hiting mobile mobs . Other weapon users reach mobs way more easily.
3) Sometimes even if you are close to the mobs there is no check to your attack...it seems unnatural....

Please Devs check this

[Arctigis]

But only if your character is called Stretch Armstrong or Reed Richards....

[Deamus]

But only if your character is called Stretch Armstrong or Reed Richards....

Im not trying handraps to have the reach of two handed weapons . My proposal is that handraps to feel more natural and not buged for the reasons I aforementioned . IMO they need a little bit increase.

People that play monks know what im talking about .

PS. Constructive arguments are welcome. Not trolling!

[Bacab]

well, you can use shortswords ot longswords now...

but seriously I do kinda know what you are talking about. Though the whole thing about not being able to hit a fleeing mob has more to do with lag than reach. You think you are behind the mob a step or 2. The game thinks you are 4-5 steps behind.

[Aerendil]

Reach is one of the few disadvantages to using handwraps, but one that I stand by 100%. Why should someone punching the ogre be able to hit from the same distance as the guy with the maul or bastard sword?

Fair's fair. Monks get insane base damage dice; plenty of effects; ki strikes; 500 untyped damage hits (if Dark); faster swing speed than any other weapon ingame; full STR to each hit; shall I go on?

Having poor reach on your fists is a very fair tradeoff to having all of that if you ask me.


PS - even in PnP the reach played a huge factor. Only one PrC that I know of (Atavist) increased unarmed reach range. And I don't see that PrE being added to DDO any time soon.

[Angelus_dead]

Devs I really believe you should consider to increase the hanndraps reach for these reasons
It's true that the melee reach of handwraps should be equalized with other weapons, but that probably means reducing the other weapons down.


1) When monks chase a mob with handraps is almost impossible to successfully hit it cause you cannot reach it..... the only way to hit it is to be in front of him which is completely wrong .
That is a big problem, but the solution is to improve the positional update prediction of network code. Increasing reach is actually ineffective at that, and causes other problems.

[Angelus_dead]

Reach is one of the few disadvantages to using handwraps, but one that I stand by 100%. Why should someone punching the ogre be able to hit from the same distance as the guy with the maul or bastard sword?
1. Because he's a monk with exceptional movement speed and acrobatic style.
2. Because the D&D rules say that all attacks shorter than a spear have the same reach.


Fair's fair.
Yes, it would be better to be fair and give monks the same reach. A tradeoff of attack speed for reach would be a really bad design.

[TheJusticar]

Reach is one of the few disadvantages to using handwraps, but one that I stand by 100%. Why should someone punching the ogre be able to hit from the same distance as the guy with the maul or bastard sword?

Fair's fair. Monks get insane base damage dice; plenty of effects; ki strikes; 500 untyped damage hits (if Dark); faster swing speed than any other weapon ingame; full STR to each hit; shall I go on?

Having poor reach on your fists is a very fair tradeoff to having all of that if you ask me.

Well put, mate. I'm getting a bit fed up with all the "I want it all" requests I've seen in the last few weeks. D&D is a game of trade-offs love it or hate it, but it is what it is. For every class, for every build there are trade-offs. Monks, IMO, with recent changes and upcoming PrCs (mystic, spy, etc.) will be a rather overpowered class with more viable path options than any other class in the game.

Vehemently /not signed.

[Aerendil]

1. Because he's a monk with exceptional movement speed and acrobatic style.
2. Because the D&D rules say that all attacks shorter than a spear have the same reach.


Yes, it would be better to be fair and give monks the same reach. A tradeoff of attack speed for reach would be a really bad design.

Yes, but keep in mind the pen and paper rules are for a turn-based system which doesn't necessarily translate well to a twitch-based real-time MMO.
Most DDO melee characters could be defined as having "acrobatic style" with all the jumping, twitching, and so on.

PS - The D&D rules also say that khopesh is a 1d8 19-20 X2 weapon, but that didn't happen either did it?
And I don't see in the rules where Monks build ki, use ki strikes, strike faster than any other weapon, and so on...
Some things simply don't translate from PNP to MMO.

[Hendrik]

Grow longer arms.

[tomfar72]

Go go Gadget-Arm!!!

[Darkrok]

Don't increase handwrap reach.

Do add claws that count as handwraps and do slashing damage that have a longer range. :)

[stainer]

Screw handwraps. Dreamler needs a jetpowered backpack.

[Delacroix21]

I have pushed for this before, and the people DISagreeing here are missing the point as to why the "reach" needs to be increased.


The main issue is=
It is VERY HARD to hit mobs when running, even when you are litteraly pressed up right against them! I am talking about literally "pushing" against them and you are still not getting Die Rolls for your swings!

[stainer]

I notice that I dont have to chase mobs if there aren't any deepwood snipers in the party.

[J1NG]

I have pushed for this before, and the people DISagreeing here are missing the point as to why the "reach" needs to be increased.


The main issue is=
It is VERY HARD to hit mobs when running, even when you are litteraly pressed up right against them! I am talking about literally "pushing" against them and you are still not getting Die Rolls for your swings!

Well, I think people are worried that monks will become overpowered. Overpowered? Really? Epic Sword of Shadows is overpowered. Unarmed is not. You need to grind possibly twice as much to get a realistic setup for a monk to even get close to that type of DPS from a eSoS. And is ultra short range only. It's not even like Monks being short range gets any other perks. It's not like we can add monk levels to improved trips or resisting trips or anything like that. All monks get is some lousy 15% boost with their lower dps at the highest level WITH a stance on.

I am a full speed monk. And I can tell you that it is NOT easy or fun trying to hit something that's running and keeps running. Case in point. The Hyena's in Epic Raiyum? As an unarmed monk, you need to run IN FRONT of them before you can hit them. Also, they turn in their run paths so much that getting in front of them doesn't mean you can hit still as by the time you get in front, they have moved off another direction, again making you not hit because you're not in range.

What if you eSoS or other weapon users are required to do the same? You'll be screaming and shouting too. This is something that can and should be altered (not fixed; altered). Some form of solution without extending the attack range to what it shouldn't be (short swords or longer weapons) is needed.

Signed for a solution.

Unsigned for extending range of unarmed though, not without a very good reason. And personally, I don't think the chasing and attack bit is enough of one.

J1NG

[Deamus]

I have pushed for this before, and the people DISagreeing here are missing the point as to why the "reach" needs to be increased.


The main issue is=
It is VERY HARD to hit mobs when running, even when you are litteraly pressed up right against them! I am talking about literally "pushing" against them and you are still not getting Die Rolls for your swings!

The above as I already said is the main reason i created this thread .
Handrap combat seems buged due to that reason . Even when I am close to the mob sometimes it seems i cannot reach it . I don't think its lag and I don't have the behaviour to want it all for the monks . Of course handraps must not have the same reach as maul .....
In the past there was a similar problem and they increased the reach but its not fixed maybe they need a slight increase more .

I hope dev writes some information about this subject
A dev might enlighten us why this happening .

[assamite]

I have pushed for this before, and the people DISagreeing here are missing the point as to why the "reach" needs to be increased.


The main issue is=
It is VERY HARD to hit mobs when running, even when you are litteraly pressed up right against them! I am talking about literally "pushing" against them and you are still not getting Die Rolls for your swings!

I have the same problem with a greataxe. You need to learn to swing ahead of the mob

[Visty]

The main issue is=
It is VERY HARD to hit mobs when running, even when you are litteraly pressed up right against them! I am talking about literally "pushing" against them and you are still not getting Die Rolls for your swings!

that problem isnt related to handwraps though, you cant hit mobs that way with either weapon

[Mister_Peace]

Handwraps have the highest standing reach of any weapon. For some reason, they also have the lowest moving reach. This makes things confusing.

[Daggaz]

Handwraps have the highest standing reach of any weapon. For some reason, they also have the lowest moving reach. This makes things confusing.

Yeah, I was gonna say that there was a thread done somewhere by one of the vets, where they figured out the reach of all the different weapons, and a monk's fists were at the top of the list.

The animation might not look like it, but you hit the mob..

[J1NG]

Yeah, I was gonna say that there was a thread done somewhere by one of the vets, where they figured out the reach of all the different weapons, and a monk's fists were at the top of the list.

The animation might not look like it, but you hit the mob..

Ahhh, very interesting. I didn't know about this. Thanks for bringing it up. :)

J1NG

[Newtons_Apple]

Devs I really believe you should consider to increase the hanndraps reach for these reasons :

1) When monks chase a mob with handraps is almost impossible to successfully hit it cause you cannot reach it..... the only way to hit it is to be in front of him which is completely wrong .
2) Handraps users are in big disadvantage against other weapon users on hiting mobile mobs . Other weapon users reach mobs way more easily.
3) Sometimes even if you are close to the mobs there is no check to your attack...it seems unnatural....

Please Devs check this

No.

[testing1234]

Handwraps have the highest standing reach of any weapon. For some reason, they also have the lowest moving reach. This makes things confusing.

are you claiming that handwraps have a longer reach while standing still then a 2h weapon?

[Potvin]

Reach is one of the few disadvantages to using handwraps, but one that I stand by 100%. Why should someone punching the ogre be able to hit from the same distance as the guy with the maul or bastard sword?

Fair's fair. Monks get insane base damage dice; plenty of effects; ki strikes; 500 untyped damage hits (if Dark); faster swing speed than any other weapon ingame; full STR to each hit; shall I go on?

Having poor reach on your fists is a very fair tradeoff to having all of that if you ask me.


PS - even in PnP the reach played a huge factor. Only one PrC that I know of (Atavist) increased unarmed reach range. And I don't see that PrE being added to DDO any time soon.

totally agree.

[Backley]

are you claiming that handwraps have a longer reach while standing still then a 2h weapon?

Yes.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=248378:
Standing:
Unarmed centered Monk (thanks to Artilleriae for testing): Longest range standing attack (109-115% of Greataxe)
All animations hit out to 2.94-3.12 (didn't range it in exactly)

Moving:
Unarmed centered Monk (thanks to Artilleriae for testing): Shortest range standing attack (42.1-50.5% of Greataxe/et al)
All animations hit out to 2.29-2.75 (didn't range it in exactly)
Monks, use your Kamas for fighting on the run!

[Lorz]

1. Because he's a monk with exceptional movement speed and acrobatic style.
2. Because the D&D rules say that all attacks shorter than a spear have the same reach.


Yes, it would be better to be fair and give monks the same reach. A tradeoff of attack speed for reach would be a really bad design.

#2 was a convenience of the PnP system. Also this is DDO...we do things different from DnD..and you know that.

I have a couple of monks and think that handwraps are about right...you gotta be withing punching distance which is shorter than any other.

[Syntax42]

The problem isn't the reach of unarmed, and it isn't exactly a lag problem. You can't change the fact that different people will have various pings. What they can change though, is how they handle various latencies.

Example:
I have a ping of 50 (I really do)
When I run against a fleeing mob, I almost never get attack rolls on my monk. When I'm on my rapier-wielding Bard, I get a few more attack rolls, but they are still rare if the mob is running away. This tells me that between my client's lag and the server's processing, I am just slightly out of range of fleeing enemies.

My imaginary friend might have a ping of 200.
He would absolutely never hit a fleeing mob with any weapon when he is running directly behind it and against it. The server thinks he is more than 10 feet away even when he sees himself shoving the bastard sword into the troll's butt.

What can they do?
Change the client and server code. Right now, it only matters where the server thinks you are. If they change it so clients can tell the server they are 1 foot from an enemy, you would get attack rolls every time. The only problem is, this would open up a vulnerability which allows players to cheat and attack enemies with melee attacks from very far away. To counter the threat of cheating, extra code would have to be executed by the CPU's to detect if a player is legitimately hitting a mob or exploiting a vulnerability. Extra processing done means more server-side lag on these already stressed-out servers.

[Zippo]

Devs I really believe you should consider to increase the hanndraps reach for these reasons :

1) When monks chase a mob with handraps is almost impossible to successfully hit it cause you cannot reach it..... the only way to hit it is to be in front of him which is completely wrong .
2) Handraps users are in big disadvantage against other weapon users on hiting mobile mobs . Other weapon users reach mobs way more easily.
3) Sometimes even if you are close to the mobs there is no check to your attack...it seems unnatural....

Please Devs check this

Point 1 seems to be for any weapon not just HW's. I can't even count how many times I have been chasing the mob chasing the Ranged Ranger or Caster kiting the mob around the room before I finally said screw it and sat down because of the attack box's from behind seeming to be fubar'd

[Deamus]

It doesnt matter if its a bug or lag . The problem exists and it needs to be solved .
I dont know if they have to fix it from client server point of view or increase the handraps range.
The point is that if you use handraps you cannot ever hit a running mob unless you run in front of the mob . That needs fixing.

[TheJusticar]

The point is that if you use handraps you cannot ever hit a running mob unless you run in front of the mob . That needs fixing.

No, the point is that you cannot hit a fleeing mob with ANY weapon and that's what needs to be fixed. It's not the weapon, it's the game quirk. Many of us have been asking for this to be fixed for years and yet, you see, the quirk still there.

[Zippo]

No, the point is that you cannot hit a fleeing mob with ANY weapon and that's what needs to be fixed. It's not the weapon, it's the game quirk. Many of us have been asking for this to be fixed for years and yet, you see, the quirk still there.

Like I said

http://hometeamsonline.com/photos/soccer/USCKARPATY/swing_and_miss.gif

swing and a miss!!

[cpito]

Clerics and mages suffer from a similar quirk in which we can't cast on a mob because we're not facing them... what??? I'm looking up the damned giant's loincloth and I can count the hair in the ogre's nose but the game thinks I'm not facing him. Theres definitely issues with proximity in this game

[LunaCee]

Sure, how about you add it to the oh so flexible water stance?

[TheJusticar]

Clerics and mages suffer from a similar quirk in which we can't cast on a mob because we're not facing them... what??? I'm looking up the damned giant's loincloth and I can count the hair in the ogre's nose but the game thinks I'm not facing him. Theres definitely issues with proximity in this game

And yet, you can hit a poor mob 100 yards away with a CoC (or other spray spell) but miss the one 10 feet in front of you or you can hit with otto (which is a touch spell relatively speaking) to a mob 5 feet in front of you, but god forbid you try to do that with a feared/fleeing mob -- might as well waste the SP on circle of death or spawn screen. So, yes there is a really bad proximity/distance problem in this game that needs to be addressed (and hasn't in the last 3+ years since I first came to the game).

[stricq]

Devs I really believe you should consider to increase the hanndraps reach for these reasons :

1) When monks chase a mob with handraps is almost impossible to successfully hit it cause you cannot reach it..... the only way to hit it is to be in front of him which is completely wrong .
2) Handraps users are in big disadvantage against other weapon users on hiting mobile mobs . Other weapon users reach mobs way more easily.
3) Sometimes even if you are close to the mobs there is no check to your attack...it seems unnatural....

Please Devs check this

1) This is the same for all melee.
2) This is the nature of handwraps.
3) This is the same for all characters. It's really bad when using a bow. My rangers can sometimes shoot up to six arrows that go "nowhere". No dice roll, nothing.

[stricq]

The above as I already said is the main reason i created this thread .
Handrap combat seems buged due to that reason . Even when I am close to the mob sometimes it seems i cannot reach it . I don't think its lag and I don't have the behaviour to want it all for the monks . Of course handraps must not have the same reach as maul .....
In the past there was a similar problem and they increased the reach but its not fixed maybe they need a slight increase more .

I hope dev writes some information about this subject
A dev might enlighten us why this happening .

This has absolutely nothing to do with handwraps and everything to do with client/server lag. This affects ALL melee in the game. I've see it over and over and over...

[sigtrent]

It is VERY HARD to hit mobs when running, even when you are litteraly pressed up right against them! I am talking about literally "pushing" against them and you are still not getting Die Rolls for your swings!

Todays lesson on DDO...

It has little or nothing to do with reach.

DDO is a client server game. To prevent cheating the server keeps the absolute position of everything in game. But to avoid the game seeming to be slow and un-responsive your client guesses as to where stuff is.

The more you move around, the worse it gets. When you are chasing the monster, it isn't exactly where it appears to be so when you swing, you miss because its not really there on the server. When you stop moving it syncs up better. Ranged combat has some buffer to handle this (some) but melee not as much.

So, reach or no reach you would have the same problem, I certainly get this with just about any weapon. Its a limitation of this kind of game running in real time on the internet.

Back the monsters up against a wall, thats what I tend to do, or pull out a shurikin and finish them off. Use an attack that slows their movement like crippling. Its just something you have to figure out ways to play with.