the XP problem

[jkm]

this is the XP by level (includes first time bonuses. does not include inherent bonuses in the quest - conquest, etc)

1 4208
2 25638
3 44457
4 63180
5 61260
6 76009
7 99830
8 149346
9 173328
10 191360
11 213349
12 226361
13 206522
14 173752
15 137942
16 160939
17 141276
18 179377
19 185087
20 126751
21 73415
22 18750

for a regular character, there is the following discrepancy

1 4208
2 25638 5000 -24845
3 44457 15000 -10638
4 63180 30000 -14457
5 61260 40000 -23180
6 76009 50000 -11260
7 99830 60000 -16009
8 149346 70000 -29830
9 173328 80000 -69346
10 191360 90000 -83328
11 213349 110000 -81360
12 226361 110000 -103349
13 206522 120000 -106361
14 173752 130000 -76522
15 137942 140000 -33752
16 160939 150000 12058
17 141276 160000 -939
18 179377 170000 28724
19 185087 180000 623
20 126751 190000 4913
21 73415
22 18750


as you can see there are very few levels early where a non-tr character can't just run all the quests at the appropriate level and have the level with some left over.

TR1
1 4208
2 25638 5250 -24595
3 44457 18750 -6888
4 63180 32000 -12457
5 61260 48500 -14680
6 76009 62000 740
7 99830 78250 2242
8 149346 94500 -5330
9 173328 112000 -37346
10 191360 130500 -42828
11 213349 163588 -27772
12 226361 170847 -42502
13 206522 193065 -33296
14 173752 214500 7979
15 137942 237767 64015
16 160939 262674 124732
17 141276 288105 127166
18 179377 314527 173251
19 185087 341927 162550
20 126751 370500 185413
21 73415
22 18750

as you can see, the problem with a TR is that you end up having to carry a lot of XP forward into the next level or otherwise you are going to have to grind at the top level quests/slayer to get them.

TR2
1 4208
2 25638 5500 -24345
3 44457 18000 -7638
4 63180 39000 -5457
5 61260 56000 -7180
6 76009 75000 13740
7 99830 96000 19992
8 149346 119000 19170
9 173328 144000 -5346
10 191360 171000 -2328
11 213349 220000 28641
12 226361 231000 17651
13 206522 264000 37639
14 173752 299000 92479
15 137942 336000 162248
16 160939 375000 237058
17 141276 416000 255061
18 179377 459000 317724
19 185087 504000 324623
20 126751 551000 365913
21 73415
22 18750

[Grendyll]

Did you include running every quest on n/h/e? Or just add up the base xp of all quests on normal + 25% first time?

[Spoonwelder]

I don't get your point. Where is the problem. You TR and expect to be able to run through all of the quests at level (once each on normal if I read you right) and still be able to get to 20 without repeating anything?


Why would you bother. Everyone repeats something - everyone runs something on hard and or elite at times. Do you have a point or are you just pointing out your mad math skills (or excel ability).

[Impaqt]

THose numbers dont seem to include Explorer areas.

[jkm]

these quests are normal hard and elite (which is why they go to level 22).

explorer areas are problematic, because you have to get some of the xp when you do the initial quest. the second problem is the number of runs that are required to max them out.

this is the XP per slayer area total, the last column is "feasible xp" before you stab yourself in the eye with a fork (3000 shavarath for the vail)

1-3 8481 3981
1-4 8619 8619

1-6 7149 7149
3-7 25383 16676
3-8 32375 32375

4-10 20983 16213
4-11 35592 24657

7-14 33727 0
7-14 44615 31453
8-15 202907 73077


10-18 216508 76753
10-19 204241 99401
12-21 286128 236628
12-21 149536 38309
13-22 227674 71799
15-24 250000 76916

1 single pass through them though it going to be 25% of those totals

[Smelt92]

there is no xp problem.

Taking the xp figures for xp at each level as correct you find the following:-

Normal toon..... 832,137 surplus xp's
TR1 toon.... 406965 short fall in xp's
TR2 toon..... 1,646,363 short fall in xp's

However, this is, as you stated, without taking any xp bonuses into account. (also without factoring in any wilderness area xp. I wouldn't count this for this exercise as the xp gained from merely running to the quests in these area is insignificant. You only start to get xp worth counting if you farm these areas, for tapestries or bloodstanes for example.)

I would defy anyone to manage to do a quest without picking up at least one bonus along the way. If you think about it you would have to put in a lot of effort to avoid getting any bonuses at all. Someone would have to die in each quest (thats gonna take a while in home sweet sewer for example), someone is going to have to recall and re-enter every quest...for no apparent reason, your going to have to kill enough mobs to avoid the stealthy bonus (can't remember the actual name of it now) but not too many to give you the lowest of the killing bonuses, you're also going to have to avoid any named mobs that give a bonus (tricky in kobolds ring leader, gwylans, stormcleave and ww part 4 to name but a few)

So this being said, lets look at the figures giving a 10% xp bonus to all the quests, (still quite low i think in reality), now we see it goes as follows....

Normal run...... 1,232,501 surplus xp
TR1 run ..... 6601 shortfall in xp's
TR2 run ..... 1,245,999 shortfall in xp's

So a TR1 run is only 6.6k short of the required xp's....Remember those insignificant slayer and explorer xp's i dismissed earlier? I realise that these would not make up for your TR 2 shortfall, however if you throw in getting conquest, ransack, ingenius neutralisation (or what ever the top trap bonus is called) and the secret detection bonus along with the odd optional (quite a few optionals in quests take mere seconds longer to do than not doing them, like the trogs in durks, and some take mnore effort to avoid than doing them, thinking about the named mobs in some quests here) not to mention i've yet to see a tr toon without a Voice of the Master trinket (so there's another 5%) i doubt you are that far off.

And that is without repeating anything more than n/h/e....one could argue that is on your TR 2 run you did every quest on c/n/h/e along with the afore mentioned 10% bonus you will have more than enough for TR2

[Cyr]

Indeed the xp needed for TR2 and what is available by running at level quests drastically favors the low end quests.

It is the main reason why you see TR toons not leveling up until they max out the last level and only running quests one level below them to maximize the available xp when they hit 17. This is a problem because it leads to unfun gameplay where the best way to level is to do stuff that is not a challenge. This is boring and very much unlike the days when the incentive was to take on quests higher level then your current level (and then your toon did not have all the gear from your past life to make it more challenging still).

[Lorz]

Noobey TR'd 2 with 54 quests undone (not touched) and 3 slayer areas untouched...and 3 raids undone!!!

Preposterous.....


Well he is a NOOBEY!!!

XP is not an issue

[Impaqt]

I think I'm still missing the point here...

Your numbers show thats its pathetically easy to level a standard Character to level 20.

Your numbers show that you can even Level a TR to Level 20 without really repeating anything other than N/H/E

and your numbers show that you actually are going to have to do some work for that 2xTR...

Thanks I guess.. thats what I've been saying all along.....

[Cyr]

I think I'm still missing the point here...

Your numbers show thats its pathetically easy to level a standard Character to level 20.

Your numbers show that you can even Level a TR to Level 20 without really repeating anything other than N/H/E

and your numbers show that you actually are going to have to do some work for that 2xTR...

Thanks I guess.. thats what I've been saying all along.....

I guess you missed my post two above yours then.

The problem is that the lack of top end xp encourages gameplay that is not challenging in the least which is the opposite of what the incentive should be (more challenge = more rewards). Speaking about TR's here of course.

[Captain_Wizbang]

The problem is that the lack of top end xp encourages gameplay that is not challenging in the least which is the opposite of what the incentive should be (more challenge = more rewards). Speaking about TR's here of course.

Gee is anyone surprised at this?
This goes along with my rants about proper game development!


This was designed that level 1 quests were equal to XP & favor, and you progressed in this game exponentially! This is one of the biggest short comings of the near sighted development we have!

Outstanding thread!
+1 sir

[Impaqt]

So a 2x TR isnt "Challenging enough" its just too hard?

[Zuldar]

So a 2x TR isnt "Challenging enough" its just too hard?

The problem isn't that it's too hard, the problem is that it's tedious. There's simply not enough quests in the upper levels to provide the xp you need without repeating every quest half a dozen times or so. Spreading out the xp needed per level and not having it clumped up at the end would alleviate some of the boredom.

[bobbryan2]

So a 2x TR isnt "Challenging enough" its just too hard?

Your idea of challenging and "hard" is exactly the opposite of mine.

Is it hard to run every quest in the game 7 times? If you already had to do it N/H/E on the first TR... is it 'harder' to run it twice as much on the second TR?