Why Turbine WHY level 5 dungeons??????

[ArkoHighStar]

Paiz: There are some smaller things like additional dungeons that are also coming out. There’s a premium adventure pack that will be for level five characters that’s called “The Carnival of Shadows.” It’s a neat little adventure that features a bunch of Tieflings running around the carnival and has the players investigating what they’re up to. I think the players will get a kick out of it, and there’s a really nice capstone dungeon underneath the big top with a giant Succubus boss that they’ll need to kill.

It also supports epic level play, so level 20 characters can go in tinker with it (and still be challenged) as well.


I am asking an honest question, why are you spending so much time building content, for a portion of the game that is already overflowing with quests. Lvls 16-20 are just dying for new content, especially with the high xp required for TRing, but yet we get update after update with under level 10 quests?

Given that update 6 would be about August, we are looking at best a year without a raid.(that is if Update 6 has a raid)

Please Turbine enlighten me

[Kadran]

I'd like to see TRs able to get into Epic at level 19.

[Karranor]

I am asking an honest question, why are you spending so much time building content, for a portion of the game that is already overflowing with quests. Lvls 16-20 are just dying for new content, especially with the high xp required for TRing, but yet we get update after update with under level 10 quests?

Given that update 6 would be about August, we are looking at best a year without a raid.(that is if Update 6 has a raid)

Please Turbine enlighten me

Me too please. There is too much to do in this level range. You can't do it all without outleveling the content.

We need content where it is starving. We need more raids. A bunch more Epic dungeons does not help any high level content except those that are 20. This excludes a huge level range.

[Cyr]

Low level content requires less design time and can be marketed to new players easier. Think 'zombie pirates' and ten year old kids come to mind. Think 'carnival' and again I'm thinking this is about marketing to younger new players.

Oh and yes I agree with you the OP it is a dumb move for the long term health of the game. Want to keep players longer? Enhance the end game experience so people don't get there, get bored, and quit. Where are the raids? Turbine must have decided that new players meant super casual players who hate grouping, are rather young, who have lots of disposable income, and are bad players so they need easy quests.

[stormarcher]

I am asking an honest question, why are you spending so much time building content, for a portion of the game that is already overflowing with quests. Lvls 16-20 are just dying for new content, especially with the high xp required for TRing, but yet we get update after update with under level 10 quests?

Given that update 6 would be about August, we are looking at best a year without a raid.(that is if Update 6 has a raid)

Please Turbine enlighten me

/signed

I completely agree with this running the same things over and over again just get boring for me and now a days I almost Instantly TR once I hit 20.

[Stamp3de]

Any mention of whether or not there will be new items in these quests that can be made epic?

[Karranor]

I'd like to see TRs able to get into Epic at level 19.

I like this idea. As stated before though. Epic dungeons are NOT new content. It is recycled old content.

[ArkoHighStar]

Low level content requires less design time and can be marketed to new players easier. Think 'zombie pirates' and ten year old kids come to mind. Think 'carnival' and again I'm thinking this is about marketing to younger new players.

Oh and yes I agree with you the OP it is a dumb move for the long term health of the game. Want to keep players longer? Enhance the end game experience so people don't get there, get bored, and quit. Where are the raids? Turbine must have decided that new players meant super casual players who hate grouping, are rather young, who have lots of disposable income, and are bad players so they need easy quests.


I have nothing against lower level quests, but it seems to be the new pattern of doing low level quests with an epic option as an after thought to appease high level players, again nothing wrong with that but it just appears to be a disturbing trend, and I fear that is all we will see this year.

[Crazyfruit]

Are the low level packs selling much, much better than the high level ones in the ddo store?

Only reason I can think of. The bestselling lists was kinda enlightening to see which people bought more often, but I didn't see an option to compare them all besides low/mid/high level

[ArichValtrahn]

I am asking an honest question, why are you spending so much time building content, for a portion of the game that is already overflowing with quests. Lvls 16-20 are just dying for new content, especially with the high xp required for TRing, but yet we get update after update with under level 10 quests?

Given that update 6 would be about August, we are looking at best a year without a raid.(that is if Update 6 has a raid)

Please Turbine enlighten me

Brand new players are more interested in low level content. Turbine wants new players.

[Alexandryte]

Given the current state of the lag in endgame currently most nights...


.....do you really want a new raid that people don't know how to do and having to contend with lag on top of it?

Although, I do agree....a nice mixture of new low end and higher end content to run to level cap would be nice.

[Coldin]

If I were to make a guess, they probably anticipate more demand for new content at lower levels due to the new players. I think there's also fewer low level adventure packs to buy since the entire harbor is given away for free.

But, I would have liked to see these quests closer to the midlevels, say 9-12, something to take the load off of going to GH.

And really, a new high level quest chain would be great.

[ArkoHighStar]

Brand new players are more interested in low level content. Turbine wants new players.

the brand new players that stay eventually become vets or at least endgame players, a healthy mix of low and high level quests would be more profitable, than just low level content.

[Cyr]

I have nothing against lower level quests, but it seems to be the new pattern of doing low level quests with an epic option as an after thought to appease high level players, again nothing wrong with that but it just appears to be a disturbing trend, and I fear that is all we will see this year.

There is something wrong with that IMO and it seems that despite you saying there is not over and over again you think there is too. It's not that the low levels are bad it's that there is so much there already as you have stated in your OP. Yes, there is something bad about spending development time on something which should be a very low priority when another aspect of the game that requires more content is being ignored.

[ArkoHighStar]

There is something wrong with that IMO and it seems that despite you saying there is not over and over again you think there is too. It's not that the low levels are bad it's that there is so much there already as you have stated in your OP. Yes, there is something bad about spending development time on something which should be a very low priority when another aspect of the game that requires more content is being ignored.

let me clarify, I have no problem in the design of having low level quests have an epic option. I just don't feel that delivering low level quests over and over again with the epic option, truly delivering high level content.

I am in total agreement the focus should be to fill the 9-13 and 16-20 gaps, not level 5 gaps.

Epic is only usefull to lvl 20's not those trying to get to lvl 20.

[Grosbeak07]

The real reason? They sell better at those levels. You can buy the Vale pack and get from level 12-20 without ever visiting Gianthold, the Desert, Necro 4, the inspired quarter or Amrath. Higher level packs don't sell as well because they are not needed as much.

Plus casual players can easily get up to levels 4, 5 or 6 after one weekend of playing. They will be attracted to play the new stuff (because all the vets despite their grumbling, will play through them... at least once) and will pay for it. $$ for Wburbine.

Its also more of a fact that there are more players at those levels, so make content for the masses. The higher levels are often pretty slim until you hit the glut at level 20, which is why the quests have Epic difficulty. If you don't like the epic grind, turbine thinks that's too bad. TR your character then. Either way they win and get your $$$ or you quit. Only time will tell who was right.

[Cyr]

If I were to make a guess, they probably anticipate more demand for new content at lower levels due to the new players. I think there's also fewer low level adventure packs to buy since the entire harbor is given away for free.


Not a premium player huh?

Catacombs, Necro 1, 3B Cove, Sentinals, Delera's, Tangle Root, Co6, Necro 2, STK, Sharn Syndicate, and Threnal's are all adventure packs. I might have missed something as that was a spur of the moment list. That is 11 adventure packs.

Levels 16-20 are probably considered the high levels by most. Vale, Amarath, Reaver's Refuge, IQ, and DD. With the last two largely being considered fluff to match catacombs and sentinals essentially. So 5 packs there.

Time spent at levels 1-10 compared to 16-20 is also fairly lopsided towards the higher levels.

I guess you be the judge. How many low level packs that a first toon will outlevel before even being able to play do they need to make?

[Kza]

Agree 100%, we need more quests and raids for 16-20 players that is nonepic = xp for chars.

[stormarcher]

In my opinion Turbine is doing the wrong thing.

Think about it:

1) most lower level "new" players are f2p and would rather experience the game to see if they like it before they buy it. (this is how I was and I assume many others were)

2) As you guys have said making a low level quest epic is alright and all but it is not as good as a new high level quest series/raid.

3) Most players past level 15 are either VIP or have bought a few packs and are the players who enjoy the game the most and spend the most money on this game. Ex: VIP, packs, guest passes for friends/guildies.

So Turbine if you are out there give the people who pay you the things they want :D

[Angelus_dead]

I am asking an honest question, why are you spending so much time building content
I am pretty sure that the reason Turbine's actions look mysterious to you is that they're going by data you don't have: the questing and purchasing patterns of new users who probably quit before level 10. You know all those e-store items that look like scams for the ignorant? They are the people who buy them. One could say that they're aiming to get churn of temporary players who drop $20 on TP and then fade out, while taking it for granted that if veteran players haven't quit yet they'll probably tolerate a lack of content for a while longer (with the probable addition of overestimating how well Epic mode works to satisfy that need)

I think Turbine is making a mistake in this regard, but it's hard to argue against their choice when we simply don't have the facts they consider important. (However, I'll go make a brief new thread to try and point out what the real problem is).


I'd like to see TRs able to get into Epic at level 19.
What would really be better is epic becomes a separate checkbox from Normal/Hard/Elite, with Epic Normal balanced to be equivalent to a level 21 dungeon on Normal, and characters are allowed in based on their relative level just as with any generic quest.


Epic is only usefull to lvl 20's not those trying to get to lvl 20.
And without getting into l2p accusations, it should be noted that epic quests are not really enjoyable for a large amount of level 20 characters.

[Kruler]

I'd like to see TRs able to get into Epic at level 19.

Why? You're already special benefits ....

[Angelus_dead]

If I were to make a guess, they probably anticipate more demand for new content at lower levels due to the new players. I think there's also fewer low level adventure packs to buy since the entire harbor is given away for free.
Something I've noticed a lot is newbie players buying a low-level Adventure Pack without having played through the free dungeons of that level, or even knowing where they are.

The lack of Adventure Pack information in the in-game quest list contributes to that behavior, and it's conceivable that Turbine intentionally withheld presenting that information to encourage the additional spending.

[dragonmane]

It would be fun to have something like "Minotaur Isle" Where you start fighting Minotaurs and orge's and end up fighting an originally made Warforge that went bad, he is a caster and fighter, with the ability to call upon a dragon or lich or devil once per raid. Just my 2 cents worth..

[Angelus_dead]

Given that update 6 would be about August, we are looking at best a year without a raid.(that is if Update 6 has a raid)
It should be noted that the story, scenery, battle, and loot are more important than the number of players allowed in the group. They've evidently been unable to fix the problem where big groups easily cause "DPS lag", but they shouldn't let that stop them from putting in content that satisfies what players who ask for "raids" really desire.

Conversely, sticking in a new 12-man instance for level 7 characters would not suffice at all...

[Bobthesponge]

my 2cp:

personally i don't mind any new content. new high level is great but i don't necessarily want to run the same quests i was running 3 years ago when i want to TR or create a new character. the game isn't always about the destination - the voyage needs to be fun too.

[Alexandryte]

my 2cp:

personally i don't mind any new content. new high level is great but i don't necessarily want to run the same quests i was running 3 years ago when i want to TR or create a new character. the game isn't always about the destination - the voyage needs to be fun too.
+1 for the fact it applies at both ends of the spectrum ^_^

[sigtrent]

It could be that there is a high level adventure as well...

I'd think they'd do a high level on on this update since they did lower level last time... I've no idea though.

[Samadhi]

/Agreed.

~level 5 is seriously the richest part of the game for there just being way more quests than there is time to do before you are already 8 and moving on. Big fail on turbine's part. We need more mid-high and high level content significantly more.

[Frodo_Lives]

It is far too easy to level to 10 and still not run a lot of the content out there. There really is no reason to keep adding more without adding some 10+ content.

I'd love to see some more 10 - 14 quests as well as some high end stuff rather than seeing even more lower level quests.

I do understand that low level quests are easier to design and balance than high level stuff, but then again I doubt that the new higher mid level quests (Mired in Kobolds, Acid Wit, Delirium) that were brought out were any work intensive than the sentinal pack.

More in that range please, not level 5 stuff.

[QuantumFX]

/agree as well.

Level 15-19 characters need a lot more to do in DDO.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Considering you end up levelling past a bunch of content at that level without running it (even if you aren't doing more than n/h/e on other quests) I'm also at a loss why they would add more at this point. The problem, especially for TRs, is in the upper end of the game. What we need is 14-20 content.

[jadenkorr]

My gut feel is that Turbine is trying to put out more content that targets the recent large influx of new players. Some of them may not know that you can get to Level 12ish without paying for anything. Some of them may not want to repeat dungeons to level up, and would be more than willing to shell out some money to experience different content.

In the meantime, they throw veteran players (a significant number of which are in guilds) the guild airship bone, and hope that will keep them busy for a while. It might, depending on the perks.

Just have to wait and see. But I really hope the underwater combat in Update 6 isnt some low level pack.

[Pyromaniac]

It takes no time at all to get past level 5. Looks like this update will be a worse flop than sentinels.

[Nebless]

This all comes from the Adventure Pack sticky in the new player section:
There are 8 'low level' packs available; of which 5 cover lvl 5 and 1 of those supposely isn't all that good.
There are 9 'mid level' packs (I used up to lvl 15 as my cut off)
There are 9 'high level packs (some cross over in the mid and high as the normal & hard hit mid levels and elite &
epic hit high levels.)
Zombie Pirates wasn't listed so I don't know where that fits in.

Now I've tossed that out there just so everyone's clear on the 'there's ton's of level 5 content already' isn't really a totally good statement to hang your hat on.

I think the real problem here is those with higher level ton's are burnt out on running the same high level quests over and over and over again. Now for those that have been around awhile that was the norm when it's all we had and while I think they should release 1 low, 1 med and 1 high pack each time to cover everyone, I also think that may be asking too much. If updates were coming closer together than doing a low this time, high next time probably wouldn't be unreasonable.

Something that may play into this is the newer players; be they young or not in age, aren't going to want to run quests over and over again, but will be more of the one (maybe two) shot types. Because of that Turbine would need to release more material in their range as they would burn through it quicker.

[Nebless]

It takes no time at all to get past level 5.

I've been playing over a year and have just reached level 5 last Sunday. Not everyone plays DDO like a typical MMO. Some of us actually play it like the old PnP version, once or twice a week for a few hours and take our time to fully enjoy the flavor of the game.

DDO isn't SWG, AoC or PotBS where the game doesn't really start until max level.

[ArkoHighStar]

It should be noted that the story, scenery, battle, and loot are more important than the number of players allowed in the group. They've evidently been unable to fix the problem where big groups easily cause "DPS lag", but they shouldn't let that stop them from putting in content that satisfies what players who ask for "raids" really desire.

Conversely, sticking in a new 12-man instance for level 7 characters would not suffice at all...

Turbine tried that with Reavers Refuge and the Dreaming Dark quests and the results were less than the typical raid scenario, they both just seem to be missing that last element. Its like ending the gianhold series with th Tor, a great 6 man quest, challenging and a great story, good loot(for its time), but it just wasn't the wrap up we were looking for. Reavers Refuge lacks the final confrontation with the fallen drocolich, and the dreaming dark, needs something more epic.

To be frank any high level semi challenging content would satisfy us a lot better than level 5 quests.

[FaSo]

This all comes from the Adventure Pack sticky in the new player section:
There are 8 'low level' packs available; of which 5 cover lvl 5 and 1 of those supposely isn't all that good.
There are 9 'mid level' packs (I used up to lvl 15 as my cut off)
There are 9 'high level packs (some cross over in the mid and high as the normal & hard hit mid levels and elite &
epic hit high levels.)
Zombie Pirates wasn't listed so I don't know where that fits in.

Now I've tossed that out there just so everyone's clear on the 'there's ton's of level 5 content already' isn't really a totally good statement to hang your hat on.



when they say there is to much lvl 5 content already, you cant just look at the packs, you have to look at all the FTP quests also, atm i can only think of...what... roughly 5-10 FTp high lvl quests(off the top of my head) not counting hound-vod

then you go look at low lvls and there are tons, harbor, market, house j,d,k,p.

To OP

/agreed

when im planing on what quests to run on a toon (before i make a toon i offten make a list of what quests to do at what lvls, once i get to 15-20 i start to have trouble thinking of good quests to run besides amearth, IQ, refuge, vail.


but those are just my 2 cents

[Spisey]

Looks like many of our fallen will be waiting another mod before peeking their heads in with this sad news... :(

[BlackSteel]

It is far too easy to level to 10 and still not run a lot of the content out there. There really is no reason to keep adding more without adding some 10+ content.

I'd love to see some more 10 - 14 quests as well as some high end stuff rather than seeing even more lower level quests.



you're telling me, jeez, I just hit 2 million expereince on my first TR; and this was prior to even stepping foot into gianthold or necro. and my adventure compendium isnt even close to being halfway done for the level.

to reiterate, I was able to collect enough experience that it would take to hit lvl 20 on a first life toon, while only running lvl 12 and under quests. granted I farmed the **** out of shadow/bloody/cursed crypts, along with OOB/wiz king/and DQ1.

theres already plenty of options for characters that are not in their high teens or even at cap.

[Nebless]

when they say there is to much lvl 5 content already, you cant just look at the packs, you have to look at all the FTP quests also, atm i can only think of...what... roughly 5-10 FTp high lvl quests(off the top of my head) not counting hound-vod

True, I didn't take those into account since I'm sure the new lvl 5 will be a to buy pack and just went with those. Although looking at my Stormreach map the quest's I haven't done yet (after doing all the F2p lvl 1 - 4's) only show maybe 4 or 5 and when I looked at them the rec level's all seemed to be higher than I could do as a level 4 / 5.

I need to dig into the F2p quest list and print out an expanded listings sheet.

Thanks for reminding me.

[Angelus_dead]

I've been playing over a year and have just reached level 5 last Sunday. Not everyone plays DDO like a typical MMO. Some of us actually play it like the old PnP version, once or twice a week for a few hours and take our time to fully enjoy the flavor of the game.
Sure, you play very infrequently, that's fine for you.

But it also means you don't have much need for new level 5 quests, because you've barely seen the quests that are already there.

[ArkoHighStar]

you're telling me, jeez, I just hit 2 million expereince on my first TR; and this was prior to even stepping foot into gianthold or necro. and my adventure compendium isnt even close to being halfway done for the level.

to reiterate, I was able to collect enough experience that it would take to hit lvl 20 on a first life toon, while only running lvl 12 and under quests. granted I farmed the **** out of shadow/bloody/cursed crypts, along with OOB/wiz king/and DQ1.

theres already plenty of options for characters that are not in their high teens or even at cap.

you illustrated the point perfectly, to get that xp at lvl 12 you farmed the hell out of several quests, try getting by doing all the content only 3 times on N/H/E, you will find you will be having a much harder time. Converesly on even a TR, I can run all the content below lvl 10 less than 3 times each and still outlevel the content.

[QuantumFX]

you're telling me, jeez, I just hit 2 million experience on my first TR; and this was prior to even stepping foot into gianthold or necro. and my adventure compendium isnt even close to being halfway done for the level.

to reiterate, I was able to collect enough experience that it would take to hit lvl 20 on a first life toon, while only running lvl 12 and under quests. granted I farmed the **** out of shadow/bloody/cursed crypts, along with OOB/wiz king/and DQ1.

theres already plenty of options for characters that are not in their high teens or even at cap.

You will learn young padawan…

The problem becomes much more apparent around level 17ish. It’s not that it’s impossible to do but you will find that “Reavers Refuge” and the “Inspired Quarter” are the new Waterworks for True Reincarnations.

I really wish the developers would change the 34/36 TR XP tables from the 5%/10%/15%/etc to a flat 65% more XP for 34s and 130% for 36pts. We have enough low level content to support this and it would make the higher levels less tedious.

[HallowedOne]

If they make Epic more towards a harder Shavarath and not the immunity-party that it is now, then I agree with them. What better use of a pack than to make it not only good for lowbies but for the high-lvls as well?

And, personally, the content most "truer" to the PnP tradition is from lvls 1~16, and generally those are the most fun imo. I really liked, for example, when I first played Sharn's Syndicate, especially the hostage quest.

After that point, the game becomes much more of MMO part - repeating quests for loot, ingredients, and requirements for raids.

[Zenako]

What I have seen is some of the newer crop of players have very little interest in rerunning a quest. Seen it, done it once, move on. Unlike the paradigm many of the long time players developed of milking each quest for experience, the newer breed wants to constantly see new stuff.

I also heard from some players, when asked about rolling up a second character, they responded, "why would I want to, I have already seen all the quests". Well they had not and I let them know, but that was their impression. Those were the type of player who was playing to "win" and see everything once and was satisfied. They were not craving specific loot items and probably did not have a clue about them or even about builds. Just wanted to see new stuff and new quests. That kind of player will be much more likely to grab more packs of quests just to see something new, without a care about EXP/min or that the quest has or does not have good end rewards.

By the time a player hits mid levels, they start to learn the ropes and get indoctrinated and find out which are the "good" quests to run and which are not as popular to run, simply based on word of mouth and looking at LFM's. Without the TR factor, most long time players avoided most new quests unless they had some new loot motivation that inticed them to run those quests. The EXP was entirely secondary to the loot.

[BlackSteel]

you illustrated the point perfectly, to get that xp at lvl 12 you farmed the hell out of several quests, try getting by doing all the content only 3 times on N/H/E, you will find you will be having a much harder time. Converesly on even a TR, I can run all the content below lvl 10 less than 3 times each and still outlevel the content.

I'm not sure you can even call it a hard time, considering I completely skipped several big ones. Never finished threnal, hit exp cap after running east 2 twice and never went back. Only ran the Pit twice. No STK, no stormcleave, no pirates (old or new), no depths series or any of the other small house quests, only did gwylans on normal once, no redwillow. No Tempest Spine. and definitely no farming explorers.

just b/c there are several high level packs listed, doesnt make them good or even viable. Heck I've yet to even step foot into IQ 2, or those few 'new' quests in the 12. Figured i'l eventually get around to it at lvl on the TR. Aside from an experience grinding tool (and one not needed for a first life, and possible 1st TR), both of those areas have nothing to offer; since one doesnt even have named loot, and the other's is deceptively pitiful.

I'm not saying more content is bad, but simply a high lvl pack that includes a raid is sorely being missed. As a low level pack is what? 1 or 2 days for even a casual player before they've exhausted it as a real option. You run the quests once on N/H/E, or god forbid it has a great exp/min (which then you'd spend more time running), and you've already either outleveled the content, or can grab better expereince elsewhere from better quests or getting the first time bonuses.

[Xeraphim]

Agree 100%, we need more quests and maybe another raid for 16-20 players that is non-epic = xp for chars.

Edited to state my opinion. Original post linked in quote.

[BlackSteel]

You will learn young padawan…

The problem becomes much more apparent around level 17ish. It’s not that it’s impossible to do but you will find that “Reavers Refuge” and the “Inspired Quarter” are the new Waterworks for True Reincarnations.

I really wish the developers would change the 34/36 TR XP tables from the 5%/10%/15%/etc to a flat 65% more XP for 34s and 130% for 36pts. We have enough low level content to support this and it would make the higher levels less tedious.

on a first TR its not looking so bad, If I can I'm still going to avoid IQ like the plague (and I hope I can)

~300k for each of the last 3 levels. I think that should be easily doable between farming Crucible/Madstone/Tor, Vale quests for another, Litany + Vol + Inferno for another, and Reavers Refuge and Amrath for the last.

Consider with a 3 hour experience pot, you can easily farm the **** out of Monastery for almost 200k. Toss on some quick solo Sin runs to cap.

[ArkoHighStar]

I'm not sure you can even call it a hard time, considering I completely skipped several big ones. Never finished threnal, hit exp cap after running east 2 twice and never went back. Only ran the Pit twice. No STK, no stormcleave, no pirates (old or new), no depths series or any of the other small house quests, only did gwylans on normal once, no redwillow. No Tempest Spine. and definitely no farming explorers.

just b/c there are several high level packs listed, doesnt make them good or even viable. Heck I've yet to even step foot into IQ 2, or those few 'new' quests in the 12. Figured i'l eventually get around to it at lvl on the TR. Aside from an experience grinding tool (and one not needed for a first life, and possible 1st TR), both of those areas have nothing to offer; since one doesnt even have named loot, and the other's is deceptively pitiful.

I'm not saying more content is bad, but simply a high lvl pack that includes a raid is sorely being missed. As a low level pack is what? 1 or 2 days for even a casual player before they've exhausted it as a real option. You run the quests once on N/H/E, or god forbid it has a great exp/min (which then you'd spend more time running), and you've already either outleveled the content, or can grab better expereince elsewhere from better quests or getting the first time bonuses.

I think we are saying the same thing

[QuantumFX]

on a first TR its not looking so bad, If I can I'm still going to avoid IQ like the plague (and I hope I can)

~300k for each of the last 3 levels. I think that should be easily doable between farming Crucible/Madstone/Tor, Vale quests for another, Litany + Vol + Inferno for another, and Reavers Refuge and Amrath for the last.

Consider with a 3 hour experience pot, you can easily farm the **** out of Monastery for almost 200k. Toss on some quick solo Sin runs to cap.

Like I said: You will learn… (and now I add MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA)

[DrNuegebauer]

The only purpose in more low level packs is to put out 'items' that are worth grinding for.

At least in the Sentinels pack they tried to do this - the named items upgrade system.

Just a shame the named items aren't really worth upgrading...

And if they would at least give Epic tokens for the Epic level dungeons, then it might even be worth grinding those out too - thus giving some 'extra' level 20 content.

But honestly, something in the 14+ range was well in order - and called for after Sentinels was announced. But again, ignored.

[Halock]

Adding my voice to the throng of people ( and especially reinc'ers ) pointing out that 14+ needs more stuff to run.

Dont mind if their short like IQ, just put something in to help me err i mean us get through those levels as reinc's with a little variety.

[Rasczak]

And without getting into l2p accusations, it should be noted that epic quests are not really enjoyable for a large amount of level 20 characters.

Agreed.

The powergamer is satisfied with these. The 'ooh my loot is uber" types but the fact that at lvl 20 you either do epics or roll another character or TR is not a pleasant option for a lot of players. You put all that work in and all that's left to you is to run epics or start over is a sad state of affairs. MAybe now they gonna try force the matter by making guild housing a grind :/

[Nyvn]

This all comes from the Adventure Pack sticky in the new player section:
There are 8 'low level' packs available; of which 5 cover lvl 5 and 1 of those supposely isn't all that good.
There are 9 'mid level' packs (I used up to lvl 15 as my cut off)
There are 9 'high level packs (some cross over in the mid and high as the normal & hard hit mid levels and elite &
epic hit high levels.)
Zombie Pirates wasn't listed so I don't know where that fits in.

Now I've tossed that out there just so everyone's clear on the 'there's ton's of level 5 content already' isn't really a totally good statement to hang your hat on.




It might not be obvious to everyone how simply listing the quests that exist per-level is a "suggestion". But it is...

01 8
02 18
03 20
04 18
05 19
06 19
07 16
08 19
09 11
10 13
11 16
12 6
13 7
14 8
15 3
16 5
17 4
18 6
19 10
20 1

That list does not include the 11 quests blocked by raid timers (as characters can't run them as frequently)


Adv packs are a poor way of showing the true number of quests for players to run. If you count the actual "quests" you see a different story. If you prefer to run lower level content, that's fine. However using misleading numbers to prove your point is not.

1-5 = 83
6-10 = 78
11-15 = 40
16-60 = 26

As you can see 1-5 has more quests than 11-20.

[Kromize]

A few things that irk me about this:

1: As everyone pointed out, add more mid-range and high level content.

2: Epic is just recycling. Also, if your going to encourage epic, make the epic loot more achievable, not so random, and reduce the amount of grind.(It's like grinding coffee beans with a needle)

3: It doesn't look like you are planning on ever increasing the level cap again adding all of this 'Epic' content. What happens to the 'Epic' content if you do increase the level cap into epic levels, can you go into it at level 20+?

4: Where are Druids?

5: The rest of the promised PRE's?

[Kalari]

I should be sleep but when I signed off looked at this thread and Ferd's.

All I can say is im not angry or even shocked just disappointed that this is the route they are going.

Dont get me wrong Ive wanted guild or any kind of housing for so long that I am looking forward to at least guild housing to be a time sink. But it seems that the dodge of the question what will we high levels who want to be truly challenged do? Im sorry I dont consider myself like other vets, I dont rush to 20 to redo everything from step one as a True res and dont have not a one yet. My 20s were built to get there to become stronger and be challenged by such, sure I could grind out more gear for them but grinding for the next epic nonsense that will only do till the next new shiny armor/weapon whatever just dont seem to be it for me. I still do the greensteel dance simply because I have a little more control over what comes out of that but its still not enough because once I get those greensteels crafted theres not much to do with them. Epics are not fun for me, its not a whine its point blank not fun to run quests I ran to the ground before they fixed the flagging for them as epic. INflated hp's and death immunities do not make a challenge and the items are meh at best.

Ive made several suggestions on an idea for an epic area where the landscape is challenging maybe even pull us into the death plane and have us deal with some real undead (banshees, draco liches, lich kings shades and the like) stuff that would make level 20 especially if you put hard work into such worth it again. I speak for myself but I do think there maybe other players like me who dont want to reroll our builds at 20 who just want to enjoy the character(s) we invested our time into and spent the last few years getting there. New players you think a lot of us are just unhappy whinning complainers and to an extent your right about the complaints but its because we care about this game that we want it to keep its relevance for us. Ive tried other mmo's so far nothing has compared to what ive amassed in ddo, friends, a fun atmosphere and interesting combat and even more then that a story each quest has one and some of them are very fascinating to me, heck im obsessed with the Undying court and would love to see more interest taken in that area one day as well (especially considering it deals with elves).

But alas after a few years of waiting watching, hoping now becoming apathetic to it all is the fate I feel is happening to myself and others and that is not good for this company cash grabbing is one thing and im not against them making money you wont see me get all moral and upitty about d&d's good name because its a business point blank. But in business you should also pay attention to those who have been there for you for the long haul threw the rough times we are asking not just for content to challenge us but to look at things we are still waiting for, pre's, finished or better capstones, bug fixes, AH overhauls and more time sinks.

You can say get over it its just a game and your in your right for thinking that but I am in my right for feeling this game has been apart of my life for almost 3 years something that Ive turned to when things outside got rough met great people and hope to keep going but at the rate things are once I get that final class to that big 20 with no where to go but repeat I just dont know. Im not threatening to quit because when I do truly leave its not going to be a big deal I just dont see why people like me should feel the need to leave because we want better. Ahh well this has become rambling im sure its a wall of text I just agree more level 5 quests even if they do put an epic mode just isnt enough.

[Jeromio]

I am asking an honest question, why are you spending so much time building content, for a portion of the game that is already overflowing with quests. Lvls 16-20 are just dying for new content, especially with the high xp required for TRing, but yet we get update after update with under level 10 quests?

Given that update 6 would be about August, we are looking at best a year without a raid.(that is if Update 6 has a raid)

Please Turbine enlighten me

It's all about the money...

I think Meja expresses it quite well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPvaPT9Uli0

[donfilibuster]

Didn't read the whole thread but i can see that Turbine is going by the statistics for the influx of new level players, the bulk of which should be in that level range by now, as a raw guess.
Hopefully there would be new packs of higher level once more people level up.

Now there's enough quests of low level, but more of them would prevent you from having to repeat them for extra xp, at least if you are not VIP which have all packs.
Tangleroot is fine but 3BC is a bit pricy so another choice wouldn't be too far fetched.
STK is too low level, sharn is too short.
And you shouldn't be hard pressed into fighting undead so catacombs/necro/pirates/delera is out of some people's favorites.
(specially for rogues, excuses aside the knife in the back works better on fleshies).

But at least things are moving forward, when i started in orien there was this 'void' or empty zone in the LFG list/social panel where there were no groups of lv 10-12.
It also seemed to filter out the players 'in learning'.
Yet now there's plenty of those and see ads of first timers for gianthold, etc.
The 'void' is moving up so it is harder to find groups for levels 13-15.

[Linenoise2]

/agree as well.

Level 15-19 characters need a lot more to do in DDO.

Agreed.

Level 15 neds some serious attention. Level 15 caters to a wide range of player levels (12-18) and yet there are, currently, only 3 quests at this level; one of those being LotD and the other two were only added a few months ago.

[Cianos_Fanas]

/signed ffs

[ddaedelus]

What I have seen is some of the newer crop of players have very little interest in rerunning a quest. Seen it, done it once, move on. Unlike the paradigm many of the long time players developed of milking each quest for experience, the newer breed wants to constantly see new stuff.

I also heard from some players, when asked about rolling up a second character, they responded, "why would I want to, I have already seen all the quests". Well they had not and I let them know, but that was their impression. Those were the type of player who was playing to "win" and see everything once and was satisfied. They were not craving specific loot items and probably did not have a clue about them or even about builds. Just wanted to see new stuff and new quests. That kind of player will be much more likely to grab more packs of quests just to see something new, without a care about EXP/min or that the quest has or does not have good end rewards.

This describes me perfectly. I have very little desire to repeat content. I generally don't repeat quests on the same character, and my rerolls usually stall at level 4 because I can't get myself to run Dalera's one more time regardless of the xp or loot. I've already seen it. I'm done. Every MMO I've ever quit has been due to lack of new content.

The one advantage of the lower levels in DDO is that there is so much content there that I can usually find a quest I've forgotten about and haven't done in awhile. Higher levels do not have that advantage.

I don't raid. And I don't grind. And I'm tired of the Vale and Gianthold.

I switched to F2P from VIP because if Vale and Gianthold was all I got at high level, it did not justify $15/month. I just bought them with the TP I'd racked up over the last several months, and now, for all practical purposes, I own the "entire" high level game. If Turbine wants me to go back to VIP (they certainly make more money from me that way), then they'll need to add more high level content.

[Skirmish]

So, just a thought. This is two updates in a row that catered to the low-mid lvl folk. Perhaps they plan on giving us higher level players a few tidbits in the next couple of mods this year. They can't take too long before adding a new raid. There will be rioting in the streets of Stormreach I tell you... RIOTS!

8)

[bobbryan2]

1-5 = 83
6-10 = 78
11-15 = 40
16-60 = 26

As you can see 1-5 has more quests than 11-20.

And that doesn't even address the point that there's a need for there to be MORE quests in the 16-20 range than in the 1-5. Even a double TRed character will breeze through the first five levels. But the amount of xp needed to get from 16 to 20 on a double TR is STAGGERING.

There's a big xp hole at the end of the game... and it's a little insulting that they aren't addressing it. End game needs about 1,000,000 more xp towards the end.

[Halock]

And that doesn't even address the point that there's a need for there to be MORE quests in the 16-20 range than in the 1-5. Even a double TRed character will breeze through the first five levels. But the amount of xp needed to get from 16 to 20 on a double TR is STAGGERING.

There's a big xp hole at the end of the game... and it's a little insulting that they aren't addressing it. End game needs about 1,000,000 more xp towards the end.

++

[Khimberlhyte]

Adv packs are a poor way of showing the true number of quests for players to run. If you count the actual "quests" you see a different story. If you prefer to run lower level content, that's fine. However using misleading numbers to prove your point is not.

1-5 = 83
6-10 = 78
11-15 = 40
16-60 = 26

As you can see 1-5 has more quests than 11-20.
Apart from a few like STK and Proof is in the Poison, there is very little in the level 1-5 range that takes very long to complete, or has large maps. A typical 1-5 quest is something like the Baudry chain, Depths series, or Durks. Compare the maps for most of the level 1-5 quests with ones like Threnal, or Chains of Flame. I would expect that they could add several quests in the level 1-5 range in as much time as it would take to build just one in the 14-20 range, let alone another Sands, Vale, or Gianthold.

I totally support the request for more content in the 16-20 range, as I don't enjoy repetition. I've run low level content into the ground already, and since I've already bought almost every pack and account feature thanks to the PAX points and 30% off sale on adventure packs, Turbine will need to generate new higher level content (14-20) in order to see my credit card again in the future. Since opening up customer's wallets is their job, if there are enough people willing to buy packs in that range, I expect Turbine will happily build them.

While it makes business sense to dedicate F2P income to expanding that userbase and meeting their demands (eg, new low level quests), it would also make sense to me to dedicate much of the VIP income towards developing higher level content.

[oweieie]

15-20 on TR2 takes almost 2.38 million XP.

There are almost 200 quests already level 1-13
There are 43 quests 14-20 that a non-20 can enter and several of those are raids.

At 15 and 16 if you have a level 20 in the party you take a 50% XP penalty.
At 15-19 if you have a level 18-20 in the party most of those 43 quests you're taking a 10% to 25% XP penalty.
This despite your TR2 probably being more powerful than the n00b 20 you're gimping through the quest.

Until 20, when you don't need XP, you can't enter epic dungeons, despite probably being more powerful 18+ on a TR2+ than most current 20s that aren't TRed.

a) Open epics to 18+ or 18+ TRs.
b) Make more high level content or lower the XP requirements of TR because I sure as **** don't want to run those same few high level quests 15 times each, each time I TR.
c) Change XP penalty so 15-16s aren't taking it in the ass for having a 20 in the party.

[Timjc86]

I've got a single TRed rogue who just hit level 18.

He's run the Vale quests into the ground. He's already taking a -50% repeat penalty for Shroud and is getting close for Hound and Vod. I have not yet touched Reaver's Refuge and Amrath - those should get me to 19 pretty easily but I doubt they'll take me all the way to 20.

I HATE the Inspired Quarter quests. And there are simply no more options.

I'm really beginning to dread the 17-20 run on a double TR. There's just not that much exp in that range.

[Zaodan]

Turbine, we clearly need more quests level 12-20.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c53/RPGamerd00d/Gaming/QuestsPerLevel.jpg

Thanks.

[Winteris]

I think that there is also a problem with new-if-ever-released raid loot. What could be added to the game, be better than raid loot we already have and not ruin balance ?

New raid means gear better than we already have, it means even more inflated mobs hp,saves, immunities, it also narrows player base that could buy it and play it.

With epic content there is no such problem, loot from sentinels pack is not really gamebreaking and it was stated that best items from low,mid lvl raids wont get much upgrade in epic version. So to sum it all i think that they wont add new high level content until they will figure out how to do it without breaking game balance.

[Bogenbroom]

A couple of comments:

1) Fully support the addition of more content in the 10-13 / 16-18 ranges. Yes please.
2) Despite the fact I am not a raid fan, still recognize the need for new raids. Overdue.

Those said...

- I wonder, if you logged in at any point, if you graphed the levels of everyone on, what would it look like? Is the active playing population largely low level? If so, that would explain why the focus there.
- In my opinion, there *should* be a lot more low level quests than high level quests. On the flip side, those higher level quests should be more involved, generally longer, and, of course, have proportionately greater XP. That would fit the nature of the genre, in my opinion.


That said, More content is good at all levels... but the higher levels need it much more.

[bobbryan2]

- In my opinion, there *should* be a lot more low level quests than high level quests. On the flip side, those higher level quests should be more involved, generally longer, and, of course, have proportionately greater XP. That would fit the nature of the genre, in my opinion.

.

But in reality... level 18-20 quests usually have lower xp rewards than quests in the 11-17 range.

Amrath, in particular, has virtually nothing in terms of XP, and IQ is only passable because of the short duration of the quests. Until that changes... there should be 2-3 times as many quests at high levels than at low levels.

[smatt]

I am asking an honest question, why are you spending so much time building content, for a portion of the game that is already overflowing with quests. Lvls 16-20 are just dying for new content, especially with the high xp required for TRing, but yet we get update after update with under level 10 quests?

Given that update 6 would be about August, we are looking at best a year without a raid.(that is if Update 6 has a raid)

Please Turbine enlighten me


Like said time and time again.... End game = Craptastic, boring, grindfest epic.. And reincarnations... Thatt is all.... :cool:

Otherwise the new quests are worthless boring low and mid-level quests that even the new players run once or twice, figure out they suck and never run again ....

[Setin_Myways]

I agree that there is a need for more quests at the higher levels, but i disagree with people being upset at the release of new content at any lvl. I would bet (and we do not have the numbers so we are all speculating) that lower level content sells more frequently than Higher lvl content. I know that I have purchased (with cash) more lower level content and the higher lvl content i was able to get with my earned tp, rather than purchased tp.

It makes sense, as a new player, you will buy content that is level appropriate. I was fortunate and read that you should focus on saving tp for adventure packs, so By the time I got to the lvl to play Von or GH, I had the tp to get them. I also like to play many toons of different classes and builds and i see content kinda like wine rather than beer, i.e. I like to take the time to enjoy it rather than guzzle my way through the case. So I like the idea that my next toon will be able to run new content, rather than having to run the same content yet again.

From a development standpoint, I would say it is much easier to get a 5th lvl pack from concept to market than a higher lvl pack. If you have ever designed high lvl content in a PnP setting or NWN, you know it is significantly more difficult to achieve a balanced area or quest set for the higher lvl chars than for lower level chars. When you look at build diversity and gear diversity, it becomes very obvious how true this is. You have folks that will not even invite a toon that does not have the proper gear, so as a developer, do you balance a quest to someone that has the best of the best or the worse case scenario? neither will work and because of the sheer number of combination, you will need to test and factor for a happy medium. If they come out with new high lvl content and it is soo difficult that only a 2TR optimum equipped toon has any hope to do it at lvl or without a lvl penalty, how happy will people be with that? So let us just say to put out quality High lvl content takes a much longer time than lower lvl content. Hopefully people will agree with that statement.

Assuming it takes much longer for them to make higher lvl content than lower level content, if the sit down and plan to make an equal number of packs for the various lvls, and the different teams all begin work at the same time, doesn't it make sense that we will se several of the lower end packs before we see any of the higher end packs? If they were working on 5 packs that were 1-5, 5 packs that were 6-10, 5 packs that were 11-15 and 5 packs that were 16 -20, it is very likely we would see most the packs below lvl 10 released to market before any of the 16-20's and maybe that is what is happening.

Unless we know what they are working on and what the various teams have scheduled on their 'to do' list, I think the complaining is unjustified. Would it be better to hold back any lower level content that is ready for market to avoid people becoming upset about the lvl of the content?

So yes, we need the higher lvl content and I hope/assume they know this and are working toward that goal. I think the worse thing is the game becoming static so any new content should be applauded, not interpreted as Turbine not knowing or caring about their customer's needs.

[Bogenbroom]

But in reality... level 18-20 quests usually have lower xp rewards than quests in the 11-17 range.

Amrath, in particular, has virtually nothing in terms of XP, and IQ is only passable because of the short duration of the quests. Until that changes... there should be 2-3 times as many quests at high levels than at low levels.

I agree with your facts, but not your conclusion. :)

By no means am I saying we don't need more high end content, but, in my opinion, that is a variety/flavor/fun thing. Not an XP thing... Rarely have problems getting XP at high levels, just because it is so easy to group. *However* that does not take into account the whole TR XP issue. I really liked the idea someone had about 19 TRs getting into epic, that would help.

[Nyvn]

- In my opinion, there *should* be a lot more low level quests than high level quests. On the flip side, those higher level quests should be more involved, generally longer, and, of course, have proportionately greater XP. That would fit the nature of the genre, in my opinion.

Well, there are alot more low level quests than high level ones, and the high level ones tend to be longer but often have less EXP. Also long high level quests also means that people who can only dedicate small amounts of time to play suffer at high levels.

[bobbryan2]

I agree with your facts, but not your conclusion. :)

By no means am I saying we don't need more high end content, but, in my opinion, that is a variety/flavor/fun thing. Not an XP thing... Rarely have problems getting XP at high levels, just because it is so easy to group. *However* that does not take into account the whole TR XP issue. I really liked the idea someone had about 19 TRs getting into epic, that would help.

It IS an XP thing. Because you aren't taking into account the whole TR XP issue means that you aren't taking into account THE ISSUE.

Anyone can level up a non-TRed character. But there are very real issues with Reincarnated characters at the high levels being forced to rerun every high level quest 6, 7, 8 times.

Yes... Epic would have helped if they made it slightly less "epic" and more "end game..." but they didn't go that route, and it's obvious they don't want to go that route as epics give ZERO xp. So currently, letting them get into epics wouldn't even solve the experience issues.

This is a very core issue... it's not a flavor/fun issue.

[Sharzade]

In terms of a big picture, I think Turbine is giving each section of Stormreach (Harbour, Marketplace, Houses etc) some TLC, and some new quest love.

As hubs like the Harbour, the Marketplace, House D, and the Twelve have been given their respective make-overs - they've also gotten new quests.

For Mod 9- the launch of DDO Unlimited which gave us our level cap raise to 20 and Favoured Souls.
We also got a revamped Marketplace and the Sharn Syndicate quest arc (several lowbie, Level 4 quests), and the new Shavarath Battlefield Explorer area with 6 Level 19 quests and a Level 20 raid.

Update 1- The Harbour got the Inspiration Quarter with 5 Level 18 quests.

Update 2- More Inspiration Quarter with 4 Level 19 quests and one Level 20 Quest.

Update 3- The Twelve got 3 mid-high level quests: one at Level 13, two at Level 15.
The Inspired Quarter got In the Demon's Den, a Level 18 quest.

Update 4- House Deneith got the Sentinels arc comprising quests ranging from Levels 6 to 8.

Update 5- article cites info on Carnival of Shadows quests (lowbie, Levels 5 - ?)

I'm not even listing Epic options.

Overall, the level ranges covered since DDO Unlimited took off look okay to me. In fact, it looks like plenty of high level stuff has been made so far.

A flat comparison of quest numbers per quest level isn't really a fair assessment of DDO. For quite a while we could only get up to Level 10, then the cap was raised gradually as years went by. We jumped from 16 to 20 in Mod 9's DDO Unlimited release. It makes sense that the number of higher level quests would be less plentiful as the level cap goes up fairly slowly. Also, I don't think that leaving raids out of high level quest counts (saw that somewhere) just because they have timers is fair either; raids are quests too, and trying to exclude them seems manipulative. Especially seeing that many of us spend lots of time raiding lolz. :D :p :)

Speaking just for me, I appreciate new, updated and dramatic content coming out across as many levels and parts of Stormreach as possible. I like getting new quests across the board, especially now that I'm doing TRs. I like the opportunity to run stuff I haven't run to death; a change of scene can be a big plus.

Like most vets, I'll be very pleased with more high level content, but I don't want content for other levels to suffocate because of veteran angst. I'm hoping that Houses like Phiarlan, Kundarak, and Jorasco can get their own respective make-overs and quest-love (hopefully levels 10+).

When upper level content gets dreamed up, I hope it's not around the Shavarath theme; I like shiny new story arcs that take me somewhere new and exciting. :)

Sharz
:) :D :p ;)

[Dwarfo]

i think we should all be thankful that turbine is coming out with new content, about every 2 months.

but i would also like some higher lvl quests, like the update before Sentinels, those new lvl 13-18 quests were pretty cool, liked how they made a dragon battle in a f2p quest, i don't see how it takes the soo long to make new content though :P

[Sharzade]

i think we should all be thankful that turbine is coming out with new content, about every 2 months.

but i would also like some higher lvl quests, like the update before Sentinels, those new lvl 13-18 quests were pretty cool, liked how they made a dragon battle in a f2p quest, i don't see how it takes the soo long to make new content though :P

Aye, I agree that getting regular updates is a good thing.

I'd forgotten that the Level 13 to 18 quests from Update 3 were FtP.

Talking about the higher level quests added during Mod 9's DDO Unlimited launch and during Updates 1 thru' 3 (I count about twenty highbie quests - counting ToD, but not mid-level Acid Wit), I'd be pretty happy if the xp most of them awarded was increased. Getting those last couple of TR levels done can be rough. ;)

Sharz
;) :p :D :)

[Merlocke]

Low level content requires less design time and can be marketed to new players easier. Think 'zombie pirates' and ten year old kids come to mind. Think 'carnival' and again I'm thinking this is about marketing to younger new players.

Oh and yes I agree with you the OP it is a dumb move for the long term health of the game. Want to keep players longer? Enhance the end game experience so people don't get there, get bored, and quit. Where are the raids? Turbine must have decided that new players meant super casual players who hate grouping, are rather young, who have lots of disposable income, and are bad players so they need easy quests.

Funny, Sad, and True.

Glad to see im not missing out on anything over here.

[Pyromaniac]

Turbine, we clearly need more quests level 12-20.

I like the visual, it may be needed to get the point through to those who decide.

[Sharzade]

After four high-level updates in a row (Mod 9 Unlimited launch thru' Updates 1, 2, and 3) providing about 20 high level quests I don't see why there's such a fuss over two back-to-back updates for lower levels.

We vets aren't the only players in the game, and even we, splendrous and magnificently entitled as we sometimes feel - can enjoy new prettier lowbie content with the zillions of new players who are making the game a success.

Hmmm, and I suppose I'm also looking forward to my main Cleric becoming a Radiant Servant. I'll be able to babysit with the best of them! For my alts, some of the new feats look interesting. Every update has something for everyone. :D ;) There is no doubt that Turbine will make more high level content for us; we just have to wait our turn. :) :p

<3 Sharz
;) :D :p :) :cool:

[Slink]

I am just happy they're releasing content on a regular basis again.

You should be too.

[Nyvn]

I am just happy they're releasing content on a regular basis again.

You should be too.

This is very true. It just seems that the higher levels are being ignored. Which sucks for those of us who stuck with DDO though content droughts.

[Uskathoth]

I'd like to see a system implemented where high-level characters could temporarily lower their level to run lower level quests. That would give the high end characters a chance to play new content and also make it easier to keep the game fresh for them if they didn't want to/couldn't TR. I guess it would be hard to do since DDO is so gear dependent though.

[Zenako]

I'd like to see a system implemented where high-level characters could temporarily lower their level to run lower level quests. That would give the high end characters a chance to play new content and also make it easier to keep the game fresh for them if they didn't want to/couldn't TR. I guess it would be hard to do since DDO is so gear dependent though.

Exactly, if you were to somehow be allowed to lower your 18th level character to 5th level for example, it is fairly likely they would be almost naked, since very little if any of their gear would be max level 5 any more. Hopefully one would have enough open inventory slots to fit all the gear. However, gear is only one thing, how about Feats and Skills and Enhancements and Spells? While a Cleric would be fairly easy, what about a Sorc or Wiz (who had to learn spells along the way so the whole list is not available), or FvS or Bards. Feats? Probably not too hard to roll back to the order of feats since Fred knows them anyway, but Enhancments? Wipe slate clean and repick I suppose, but what about Skills, another wipe and reselect, ok perhaps that works.

But what sort of limits would you put on the process, and how would you ensure that it is not just a cheap way to almost reincarnate the character?

One simplistic way would be almost like using Negative Levels you get from Undead or Death. Level 18 toon dropped to level 5, take a -13 to BAB, Skills, Saves, and loses HP and SP accordingly.

With all that being said, since EVERYONE in the game can have 2 or more characters, I fail to find the arguement compelling enough to bother spending much time developing any system like that in the first place. The overall need is just not there.

[Aspenor]

another pwny quit DDO with a high likelihood of no return. yes, this level 5 **** with epic add-on is really ****ing me off.

[dunklezhan]

The epic stuff sounds really quite pointless to me. My highest level character is 12 or 13 (I forget which). Knowing that I'm about to enter the realms of 'repeat these 8 quests at your level endlessly to progress', I actually avoid playing him, and level up new alts.

As I eventually grind my way up to 20, am I going to do epic and essentially repeat content I've already done, or am I going to TR and play through some of the lower level stuff I outlevelled before?


Given that playstyle, you'd think I'd be in favour of new low level content, since I'm going to be running through it so much, right? No. I want more high level - note, not end game, since I don't care one jot about that, haven't in any MMO I've ever played. I want more quests at L12 plus. Just as in PnP, the higher in level you go, the more XP you need (particularly if you TR). So there ought to be enough quests that you can get through each level without having to repeat one of the quests. You might repeat one as you progress through the next level, because you may do it again on Hard. But you shouldn't need to do a quest on n/n/n/h/e just to level up your current level.

So, regardless of where the sales are made, Turbine needs to add more L12 plus content. Otherwise those wonderful new cash-cow- er... customers who start and then spend a load of money on low level APs are going to get to L12 and have nothing to spend their money on. Then they'll get bored and quit. There hasn't been enough time since F2P launched for large percentages of those players to reach that stage yet, but it may not be long now, and if Turbine don't prepare the ground they could be in for a shock. I'd hate to see the F2P market take a nosedive.

More mid-high level content please turbine. If that includes a raid or two, fair enough, but just adding a lage chunk of standard 6 man quests would be a really good start.

Only once that's in place should they start crafting specific L20 content. Epic will fill the gap fine I think so long as people are TRing, and if the problem of a total dearth of content at L12 plus is sorted, then they will be more willing to do that. AND your new players with their up and coming characters will be buying those Adventure packs too.

Possibly the reason the low level packs are such good sellers is because new players are doing what I'm doing: Getting to 12, seeing the grindfest that is ahead of them, and rolling a new alt and playing through some new content. There's only so long they (and I) are going to do that before they get completely bored and go play something else.

In my case since that's likely to be LoTRO then turbine will still make money from me so they probably don't care - but note this Turbine: WoW Cataclysm is coming. An awful lot of people started playing DDO while they waited for that to come out. And that's a massive amount of new content spread throughout Blizzard's game. It'll be hard to resist that if your new players are bored of DDO, regardless of the fact that DDO is in my opinion a far superior game engine and experience (and I'm no WoW hater, I played WoW for years and still dip into now and again. Every time I do it just reminds me of how good DDO is... but it also reminds me of a ton of features I wish Turbine would emulate).

So, yes, a little bit of DooooooOOOOOOooooommmmm! In the above musing, but hopefully a constructive point...

[Dcurd]

Part of my black heart is hoping there is a level 5 raid at the end of the quest line.

"See they're adding new raids to the game!", I'll say with a malicious chuckle.

A cacophonous grinding will rise from the forums, like a great gnashing of teeth. The forums will erupt with madness and wrath, and the tears, the tears will taste so sweet.

---

Heh, in all seriousness a level 5 raid makes no sense, but after reading all the people in this thread and others complain about no new raids I had to imagine what would happen if the update *did* have a raid. My analysis: hillarity would ensue :P

[Nebless]

I'd like to see a system implemented where high-level characters could temporarily lower their level to run lower level quests. That would give the high end characters a chance to play new content and also make it easier to keep the game fresh for them if they didn't want to/couldn't TR. I guess it would be hard to do since DDO is so gear dependent though.

Going down would be hard, going up on the other hand .....

AoC uses a mentoring system where a higher level can temp raise a lower up to his level to allow grouping in the higher level dungeons / zones. It effects the toons health and stamina, and may allow them to wear / use higher stuff (not sure on that point). Once you leave the zone or log you go back to your normal level.

(Not that any of that would help in the situation you described wanting it for).

[sly_1]

I am asking an honest question, why are you spending so much time building content, for a portion of the game that is already overflowing with quests. Lvls 16-20 are just dying for new content, especially with the high xp required for TRing, but yet we get update after update with under level 10 quests?

Given that update 6 would be about August, we are looking at best a year without a raid.(that is if Update 6 has a raid)

Please Turbine enlighten me

/agree

I'm not some grizzled vet who's been playing for 4 yrs and has 50 lvl 20 alts. Only been playing about 8 months and I'm already getting bored of the game. My lvl 20 main and lvl 18 alt just run the various raids every 3 days, beyond that there really isn't anything truly fun to do. Some of the amrath quests are interesting on hard/elite, and the epic quests can be a bit of a challenge depending on the party, but there really needs to be more interesting high lvl stuff to do.

If I'm getting bored after 8 months I have no idea what keeps all these vets around for years...

[Zenako]

/agree

I'm not some grizzled vet who's been playing for 4 yrs and has 50 lvl 20 alts. Only been playing about 8 months and I'm already getting bored of the game. My lvl 20 main and lvl 18 alt just run the various raids every 3 days, beyond that there really isn't anything truly fun to do. Some of the amrath quests are interesting on hard/elite, and the epic quests can be a bit of a challenge depending on the party, but there really needs to be more interesting high lvl stuff to do.

If I'm getting bored after 8 months I have no idea what keeps all these vets around for years...

Because many of us DO HAVE tons of other characters that we have used and developed to experience other aspects of game play. I can assure you that if all there was to the game was running 2 character thru the same raids every three days, that very few players would still be here.

Have you actually seen all the quests? or did you just play quickly to "cap" for the end game? I understand that many MMO's focus heavily on the end game to the detriment of the journey there, but DDO actually does provide a lot of return on your time if you enjoy the journey and check out all the areas and quests.

[Kalari]

Exactly Zenako what bugs me is people are missing the OP's point.

Do not take Vet's concern into consideration when you make the decision if your going to do epics.

A. Weve been here for years and Epics are quests we have done for years. That makes it a valid arguement for us to want something new.

If you have not done the old flagging mechanics for vons or dq I cant even see how you would have anything to say about epic mode.

B. Only a person who has done every quest in this game can honestly say they are bored and I know people who have been here for many years that cant say that on their characters. knowing how to get to 20 fast is one thing grabbing the big xp quests but im glad that I have a few girls under my belt who have done the quests people deem unworthy and that keeps things fresh.

We are asking for epics to stop being an after thought it has nothing to do with boredom and quite frankly if your bored after only a few months playing this game I feel sorry for you. It took me years to get to the point of really wanting more and its not even about being bored its about a challenge. Its about working hard and getting my character to cap and wanting something thrown at them to make me feel like "yes this is a challenge worthy of all the hard work I put into this build."

Some people rant and make it seem like its about boredom for me its not its about wanting the game to be more well rounded at all levels and thats what I pulled from the OP not boredom not having nothing to do there is still plenty to do if you wanted to.