Monk Request .... Metamagic to boost pre's

[Drfirewater79]

Quote:
Shintao Monk I

Prereqs: Level 6 Monk, Path of Harmonious Balance, Stunning Fist, Monk Concentration II, Monk Improved Recovery I
and any one of Cleave, Combat Expertise, Die Hard, Discipline, Luck of Heroes, Precision, Resilience, or Self Sufficient

Benefit: You guide others on the path of enlightenment leading by example. You gain the ability to expend ki to smite evil creatures and can create a protection from evil effect warding allies from domination and improving defenses against evil opponents. Your unarmed attacks now bypass Byshek damage reduction.
I was just wondering .... while most understand light fist requirement ...

and stunning fist is common monk feat as is concentration and improved recovery all make sense .. .

but some of the others dont ...

not very many good light monks have cleave

combat expertise doesnt work with light monk (every time you cast it turns off) so many monks dont have it

Die Hard is the only one some might have but since all you need is a regeneration item to save from bleeding alot of experienced players dont have this either if they already have shroud items

I dont know anyone who has Discipline, Luck of Heroes, Resilience, or Self Sufficient
on any of there characters

and Precision is the last thing a good monk would take as we already never miss 90% of the time on epic let along normal or hard.


I am not saying it shouldn't have some sort of real feat pre-req (stunning fist is a monk bonus feat and really what monk is not gonna take that anyway)

but shouldnt the feat some how be related to the pre?

how does any of the above feats make sense with light monk?

I would like to make the suggestion that empowered healing be added to that list and that monk finishers be added to the metamagic allowance taking more ki just like sp for casters ...

at least then taking empowered healing on a light monk makes sense and makes sense with the pre ...

Monks have all these finishers that should be enhanced magically if they where allowed ... it isn't PnP but it is very DDO ...

for instance ... if i take a belt from Aramath like radiant servant ... the ador clicky enhances my mass heal (i can hit myself normally for about 30-40 non crit and 50-80 crit others around 25-35 non crit and 45-70ish crit .... with the clicky i have hit myself for as much as 157 on a crit and 120 is highest i have seen me hit someone else ... all though it was another monk)

empowered healing in that case would increase my heals to being useful in large parties and in raids like TOD and Shroud ...

Since shintao is forced light path i think that they should allow for empowered healing to light monks especially as part of the pre req list for shintao and it should be added as part of monk bonus feat list ... also maximize and empower though i can't see many taking it but it would work too to upgrade fire fire fire burning hands spell making str monks worth something eventually (Henshin mystic for instance) with only the free stance when dark side i was hitting mobs for about 56 after fire curse ... so i assume at top stance it prolly does a little more max and empower prolly hit 100 ... its not over powered but it is useful at that point ...

[Elfvyra]

Maybe save this question for when we have a finished Shintao Pre? It's entirely possible it will all make sense then.... ;)

[Drfirewater79]

Maybe save this question for when we have a finished Shintao Pre? It's entirely possible it will all make sense then.... ;)

its possible .. but no matter how pimped it is empowered healing for a forced light path pre makes alot of sense and some of the others at least for now dont ...


is the pre launching in update 5 going to be full or is it only gonna be tier I of both shintao and ninja spy?

if its only tier I then its unlikely anyone is gonna rush to grab the pre right away and change there feat selection for it ... just to find out it stinks at tier III.

[Yaga_Nub]

/not signed.

[Lighti]

Most prestige classes force you to take useless feats, why should monk be any different?

[Drfirewater79]

/not signed.

is that cause you dont have a monk

dont understand how it would help

dont understand how it would make more sense then other options

or

cause you dont think it makes sense ( and why )

I am just interested in opinions not being an ass or anything

I would love it on my monk cause it would make me a useful healing alternative while light monk in shintao ... especially since i would be giving cleric like buffs ... (protection from evil) and mass healing

monks mass heal could greatly use an upgrade its only 1d4 + 1d4 per two monk levels ... totaling 11d4 at lvl 20 ... that is a max unaltered 44? so it saves the cost of two serious pots and takes more time to cast then it takes to eat 2 pots (as you have to do the whole combo)

it just seems like shintao is a way to make light monks effective again after they made dark monks SOOOOO awesome it tossed the balance from light to dark pretty drastically.

and extend meta magic would be awesome for monk buffs too maybe make them useful.

[Drfirewater79]

Most prestige classes force you to take useless feats, why should monk be any different?

really ???

I never noticed anything i wouldnt normally take on my kensai fighter .... or my frenzied barb ... or my Arc Archer ... hmmm

I dont have any palidans maybe that is what you mean? only one feat that i normally wouldnt take is on my stalwart but at least the feat is useful for my class.

[Chai]

In the "requires any one of" category, Discipline is the one to take for a monk. +1 will and +2 concentration, passive. Forget cleave. Combat Expertise might be another sure win with AC monks.

[Drfirewater79]

In the "requires any one of" category, Discipline is the one to take for a monk. +1 will and +2 concentration, passive. Forget cleave. Combat Expertise might be another sure win with AC monks.

yeah waiting on a +3 int tome for combat expertise anyway but it turns it self off when you do mass heal so was thinking of respecing out on a light monk ... much better for dark monk

I guess another request would be to make combat expertise not turn off during monk finishers ... so long as they are not considered spells and granting them meta magic

its really one way or the other .... it makes no sense if they are treated as spells that we cannot get meta magic ... and if they are not spells then it shouldn't remove stance for combat expertise/ defensive fighting

[Chai]

really ???

I never noticed anything i wouldnt normally take on my kensai fighter .... or my frenzied barb ... or my Arc Archer ... hmmm

I dont have any palidans maybe that is what you mean? only one feat that i normally wouldnt take is on my stalwart but at least the feat is useful for my class.

Barbarian - cleave, not really necessary. I would rather have stunning blow if I am going to take something that interrupts twitching and attack animations. Here is a feat starved pure build that used to give you 1 feat to play with, and now it does not.

Arcane archer. Mental toughness. I would not have taken this had they not made me pick it from a list of other useless stuff that makes you have to splash another class. Making rangers have to take 3 feats to qualify for either of their PREs is bunk.

Kensai is the only real exception. This really needed some love before the PRE came out to make it even hold a candle to barbarian. I am glad they got it right.

Most of the other PRE make you take questionable feats and enhancements to qualify.

Monk abilities are not spells. They should not be treated as such. I think CE should not turn off when using finishers. I am glad to see Turbine found new ways to mess with the monk class. It was starting to become playable again. :p

[Yaga_Nub]

is that cause you dont have a monk

I do have a monk.

dont understand how it would help

I do understand how it would help

dont understand how it would make more sense then other options

I don't agree that it would make more sense than the other options

or

cause you dont think it makes sense ( and why )

I don't think it makes more sense at all because you're asking for feats that affect magic to affect a non-magical act.

I am just interested in opinions not being an ass or anything

I would love it on my monk cause it would make me a useful healing alternative while light monk in shintao ... especially since i would be giving cleric like buffs ... (protection from evil) and mass healing

monks mass heal could greatly use an upgrade its only 1d4 + 1d4 per two monk levels ... totaling 11d4 at lvl 20 ... that is a max unaltered 44? so it saves the cost of two serious pots and takes more time to cast then it takes to eat 2 pots (as you have to do the whole combo)

it just seems like shintao is a way to make light monks effective again after they made dark monks SOOOOO awesome it tossed the balance from light to dark pretty drastically.

and extend meta magic would be awesome for monk buffs too maybe make them useful.

Monks aren't meant to be clerics, fvs, sorcs, wiz or bards. It's appropriate that their buffs only last a small time and that their heals aren't more powerful. Let's wait for Shintao II and III before asking for something more to help.

[Elfvyra]

its possible .. but no matter how pimped it is empowered healing for a forced light path pre makes alot of sense and some of the others at least for now dont ...


is the pre launching in update 5 going to be full or is it only gonna be tier I of both shintao and ninja spy?

if its only tier I then its unlikely anyone is gonna rush to grab the pre right away and change there feat selection for it ... just to find out it stinks at tier III.

If you had paid attention to the Poll (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2952072) we had on the 11th, and that you posted in, you'd get the impression that they're gonna release at least Shintao Monk II and Ninja Spy II.... ;)

[Drfirewater79]

Monks aren't meant to be clerics, fvs, sorcs, wiz or bards. It's appropriate that their buffs only last a small time and that their heals aren't more powerful. Let's wait for Shintao II and III before asking for something more to help.

dont think empower healing/extend would put a monk in the spot of replacing cleric or fvs or bard ...

its true something may come up in II and III but lord knows when we will hear about it .... is there even conformation yet that II and III will be out in update 5

Deep wood sniper always creeps into my head when i see big update like this with guild ships two monk pres one cleric pre new spells feats and lord knows what else (like missions and epics)

always scares me a little thinking what if there is no shintao II or III in update 5 ...

and its always good to plan ahead

what if there is no healing bump for shintao .... asking for something that Makes sense as the finishers in the case of the fire fire fire and light light light are both treated as spells currently i the game (remove combat expertise and defensive fighting stance ... and its possible the buffs do too just cant remember right now)

if they are treated as spells then why not get metamagic if your willing to lose the feat for it?

[Drfirewater79]

If you had paid attention to the Poll (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?&postid=2952072) we had on the 11th, and that you posted in, you'd get the impression that they're gonna release at least Shintao Monk II and Ninja Spy II.... ;)

oh didnt realize they said anything about II or III ?

i guess i will have to read it again. Usually just hit dev tracker to find out if eladrin added his two cents after the puzzle ... but don't remember him saying more puzzles on the way any time soon.

------------eidt --------------

sweet so we know II is there nice ... look forward to next puzzle then .... hope my prayers will be answered with outstanding healing increase in return for feat cost.

[Drakos]

is the pre launching in update 5 going to be full or is it only gonna be tier I of both shintao and ninja spy?
Update 5 should contain Tier I and Tier II for both Shintao Monk and Ninja Spy. We have seet the Tier I for both and both Tier II were on the list to vote for with the first "Next Eldarin Puzzel" poll.

[byzantinebob]

The problem with the requirement is that one of them we would take if it worked like it should. If CE behaved like PA, then there would be no complaining.

[Drakos]

is that cause you dont have a monk

dont understand how it would help

dont understand how it would make more sense then other options

or

cause you dont think it makes sense ( and why )

I am just interested in opinions not being an ass or anything

I would love it on my monk cause it would make me a useful healing alternative while light monk in shintao ... especially since i would be giving cleric like buffs ... (protection from evil) and mass healing

monks mass heal could greatly use an upgrade its only 1d4 + 1d4 per two monk levels ... totaling 11d4 at lvl 20 ... that is a max unaltered 44? so it saves the cost of two serious pots and takes more time to cast then it takes to eat 2 pots (as you have to do the whole combo)

it just seems like shintao is a way to make light monks effective again after they made dark monks SOOOOO awesome it tossed the balance from light to dark pretty drastically.

and extend meta magic would be awesome for monk buffs too maybe make them useful.
I am also not in favor of allowing Meta-Magic to work with Monk Ki uses.

Yes I have two Monks, both are light side.

I realize that the Light Side monk is geared towards using positive energy to buff/heal/remove conditions, but Monks as a whole are a melee class not a healer class and as such I feel these effects should remain a beneficial side effect rather than be the main focus. I guess I fall into the "It doesn't make sense" column. I think their effects are right at the level of being nice but still being relegated to side-efect.

Just my 2cp!

[Drfirewater79]

The problem with the requirement is that one of them we would take if it worked like it should. If CE behaved like PA, then there would be no complaining.

Yeah I agree I think CE as a pre req should at least be something that actually works for the class while doing what the class is designed to do .. .buff and heal while being melee ...

if finishers are not spells then they shouldnt effect CE/DF .... i know the earth wind fire doesnt effect it nore does the dark side 500 pointer ..... why does light finishers?


I am also not in favor of allowing Meta-Magic to work with Monk Ki uses.

Yes I have two Monks, both are light side.

I realize that the Light Side monk is geared towards using positive energy to buff/heal/remove conditions, but Monks as a whole are a melee class not a healer class and as such I feel these effects should remain a beneficial side effect rather than be the main focus. I guess I fall into the "It doesn't make sense" column. I think their effects are right at the level of being nice but still being relegated to side-efect.

Just my 2cp!

I understand it ..... the idea of meta-magic in a PnP sense is to change the metaphysics of magic .. spells ...

monks dont have SPELLs they have finishers which are part of an enhancement line which don't exist in PnP thus going to PnP rules for "Sense" doesnt apply here ...

while I agree that meta magic doesnt really apply to finishers for that reason ... and the last thing i want on either of my two light monks is to be required to heal the party .... but as a support class which lets be honest here is what monks are .....

its unfortunate that there are not more support geared feats to help increase what we do for support ...

there is no Empowered Ki heal feat ... no Extended Ki feat ... not even any superior potency handwraps for that matter there are no raid handwraps at all ...

most healing monks (which i consider my main to be I toss heals constantly especially in shroud trying to help out best i can) are stuck with clicky ador or pots and reavers refuge gloves or shroud crafted healing lore.

also shintao set from tod adds attack and damage not healing boosts ... so if the pre doesnt boost healing ability (vs others not self only like all the human and monk stacking amps)

and with the advent of TOD rings you have already taken away all the ring sloted raid items from monks if they want to do any kind of dps at all ... no shroud handwraps ...
cannot wear my chattering ring anymore... or my tumbleweed ....

might as well just go dark monk once i get my ninja spy ring from TOD cause I already have a 31.5 umd self buffed with no titan gloves (but with bunny hat so once i get gloves it will be 33.5) I might as well just use heal scrolls at the 65% or what ever it will be with gloves.

Its taking the heal fun right out of the class.

if its not ment to be useful then why was it added at all?

if its ment to be useful why not create ways to make it better?

[Drakos]

there is no Empowered Ki heal feat ... no Extended Ki feat ... not even any superior potency handwraps for that matter there are no raid handwraps at all ...
I'm not sure we need them. The meta-magic feats are in to allow the casters to gain more bang for the buck on a limited resource aka. Spell Points. You want extend because it conserves SP use on recasting. But monks use Ki, which is really an unlimited resource and can be easily and cheeply replenished. So yes we have weaker buffs/heals, but for all intense and purposes we also have unlimited use of them. On my monks I routinly have more Ki than I can use because we can go fairly non-stop through the adventure. I can't remember tha last time I even bothered using a shrine with my monk. Casters on the other hand have to stretch those SP to last between shrines and/or plow lots of Plat/TP on pots to suppliment.


most healing monks (which i consider my main to be I toss heals constantly especially in shroud trying to help out best i can) are stuck with clicky ador or pots and reavers refuge gloves or shroud crafted healing lore.
I guess this is the difference in opinion we are having, I personally would never refer to any of my Monks as a 'Healing Monk'. You do, and thats fine, but what your asking for here is for them to add something for monk that suits a Playstyle, not to support the Monk class as a whole.


also shintao set from tod adds attack and damage not healing boosts ... so if the pre doesnt boost healing ability (vs others not self only like all the human and monk stacking amps)
From what we have seen of the PrE (Shintao Monk I) it doesn't enhance healing. We are getting a Smite and Prot. From Evil ability, plus the bypass DR effect. The Shintao class is about enhancing out H-t-H combat (hense the rings and Smite) utilizing positive energy. AFAIK it was never meant to turn the Monk into a healer, or enhance their healing abilities.


Its taking the heal fun right out of the class.
The fun is still there, we can still do the healing, were just not first string healers. Of course if I wanted to be a first string healer I'd go FvS or Cleric.

[Drfirewater79]

I'm not sure we need them. The meta-magic feats are in to allow the casters to gain more bang for the buck on a limited resource aka. Spell Points. You want extend because it conserves SP use on recasting. But monks use Ki, which is really an unlimited resource and can be easily and cheeply replenished. So yes we have weaker buffs/heals, but for all intense and purposes we also have unlimited use of them. On my monks I routinly have more Ki than I can use because we can go fairly non-stop through the adventure. I can't remember tha last time I even bothered using a shrine with my monk. Casters on the other hand have to stretch those SP to last between shrines and/or plow lots of Plat/TP on pots to suppliment.


yeah but really a one minute buff does nothing ... its not bad for self buffing but for a party its worthless... and with the exception of earth buff which is only useful in TOD nothing else is useful in comparison to something a caster can cast and casters spell lasts for 15 mins without extend.

even if you wanted to do nothing but focus on buffs over and over and over and over buff buff buff ... you take all the melee fun away from the class that is supost to be melee based ... and often the buffs dont last long enough to matter ...

its not that i think we need 15 min buffs like casters cause yet its much harder for a caster to drink a mana pot (which by the way i almost never use on my caster cause i can blast away without wasting all my mana in most missions) which they had to buy or get in chest or take as an end reward really by the time your capped is the only end reward your gonna take 90% of the time ... then it takes for a monk to build ki ... and enough to re buff four buffs and mass heals and dance attack every minute on the minute ... if you dont run out of ki on your monk then your not keeping the 4 buffs running and or healing constantly ... not that i think you should start but that is the reason .. wind stance doesnt gain that much ki per hit.

I think at least if the buffs had a 4-5 min length they would be more useful ... and extend could do that .... extend for a 1 min buff is not gonna be 30 mins like a casters ... but a 4 min fire stance would be useful ... a 4 min earth grab would be usefull. right now TOD is freaking bore for a monk its back and forth buff and try to get enough ki then buff the next group then back to healers then back to main tank then over and over ..



I guess this is the difference in opinion we are having, I personally would never refer to any of my Monks as a 'Healing Monk'. You do, and thats fine, but what your asking for here is for them to add something for monk that suits a Playstyle, not to support the Monk class as a whole.


no light monks as a hole is not a playstyle .. its an ability ... for instance ... palidans lay on hands .... they can take empower healing ... they arent a "Caster class" but there lay on hands can hit insane numbers if they build to do it ...

rangers can heal with serious enhancements and empower healing can heal great with there spells

only one of the healing CLASSES that can heal but has no ability to amplify is light monks.



From what we have seen of the PrE (Shintao Monk I) it doesn't enhance healing. We are getting a Smite and Prot. From Evil ability, plus the bypass DR effect. The Shintao class is about enhancing out H-t-H combat (hense the rings and Smite) utilizing positive energy. AFAIK it was never meant to turn the Monk into a healer, or enhance their healing abilities.


That is the point i am making ... the pre itself doesn't increase the healing aspect but does force you to go path of light ... So expecting the PRE to help out is silly ... I agree....

this is why i would like to see enhancing feats for monk special attacks.



The fun is still there, we can still do the healing, were just not first string healers. Of course if I wanted to be a first string healer I'd go FvS or Cleric.

doing less then 50 points of healing every 20 seconds (about how long it takes to do a combo assuming it doesnt glitch for a bit which it does frequently) is not even a second string healer ... as i said palidans heal more efficiently rangers heal more efficiently ... Shoot my wizard heals more efficiently with scrolls.

if you want to dps on a monk you go dark side why the hell would you go light monk for DPS?

500 points every 15 seconds ... makes the smite evil light thing look silly. whats it gonna do 300 damage at highest point?

...

the way monks are set up in this game is dark is damage high dps and light is positive energy healing and buffing

its like cleric and wizard .... sure cleirc can do some damage ... but wizards can do more cause they can focus better on damage .... sure wizards if they build right can heal fleshies but clerics can do it better.

so why not allow light monks to do what they can better ... not like i want it for free ... just let me take a feat for it ...

instead the feats they did release only increase usefulness of 1 and 2 monk levels on fighters and rangers .......