sigtrent
05-19-2010, 05:27 PM
Interesting discussions and I thought I'd sum up my thoughts on it and see what folks think.
Scope: This is in regards to characters who have monk levels or are looking for a TWF style build. I'm not so interested in what the absolute top DPS is overall, just the comparison of similar options.
What the number crunchers tell us
1. Fists have the following benefits
- Fast attack speed
- Ki moves
- Stance bonuses
- Base damage
- Tower of Despair Rings effects
- Full off hand str damage
- No TWF attack penalties
1b. Kamas, a weak weapon but has its uses for monks today
- Greensteel options
- Tempest works
- Ki moves (but not the death touch)
- Stance bonuses
2. Longswords have the "edge" for these reasons
- Ki moves (but not the death touch)
- Better ki generation than unarmed (per hit, speed may be more important overall)
- Stance bonuses
- Bonuses from elf racial traits
- Greensteel options
- Tempest works
3. Kopesh claims the following
- Superior crit damage
- Greensteel options
- Tempest works
The damage calculators show how the very high attack speed and base damage make them very potent against nearly any foe, better on average that the weapon options which just can't match the speed and base damage of the fists.
The calculators have also shown that with some exception for ki moves, a fighter build with monk splash can overcome the base weapon damage with speed and flat damage bonuses.
I'd add there are a few other factors to think about....
1. Kopesh's crit damage is very strong on auto crit monsters or anything that further multiplies crit effects. (say exalted smite or Kensi 3)
2. Weapon options allow two weapons, each of which could have combo effects, or in the case of greensteel may give non combat buffs.
3. Unarmed doesn't always get the "double effect" you get with TWF where you fire one affect and it procs for each hand. (I'm not sure how it does work though, unarmed I sometimes get this, sometimes not, but TWF its pretty much 100%)
4. Keep in mind that DPS like a lot of things in this game there is a "good enough" range where even if you aren't A#1 you are still killing monsters plenty fast enough to get the quest done in a zergish fashion and feel like a combat god.
5. All the comparisons we have are end-game oriented but end game is only a small % of the content in DDO.
6. There are a wider range of effect types on the slashing weapons than on fists or so it seems.
7. Fists are blunt, swords are slashing.
My conclusion type thoughts....
Whichever build has the fastest attack speed is likely to win the DPS competition. After that the highest base damage likely wins, after that the crit profile. (although crit can trump base in some cases)
For maximum DPS the fists and a pure dark monk approach seems to win out compared to Kopesh or monk+longsword.
If you like to do big monster crits or are playing around with expanded crit ranges, kopesh is pretty deadly, but its damage bump is generally trumped by raw attack speed. Longsword only can beat it because of the elf bonus and for that you have to play an elf or the slight kick up from wind stance.
But... if you factor in that you can use a longsword and still do all your ki moves, its fairly attractive if you are looking for more utility. Nothing says you can't use fists and have the longsword feat as well. Against slashing DR the longsword will beat out fists. Greensteel has many non DPS advantages the monk may find useful, light monks especially. The longswords are definitely better than the lowly Kama for this.
If you are only splashing monk for evasion or the ac bonus, you probably don't use unarmed or ki moves or you are heavily unarmed specked with Kensei and the longswords don't offer you much but the slashing damage type which you could just get with the kopesh for less feats or by using long swords without the marginal stance benefit or weak ki strikes.
More condensed conclusions
If you are a DPS nut the longswords are not worth building for
If you like versatility the longswords are a nice addition to monk
If you could give a rats ass about monk powers, use a kopesh instead of a long sword.
My personal reaction
I have a Monk 3 Paladin 15 Fighter 2
I currently use unarmed and Kopesh
The Kopesh is better DPS when I can crit because exalted smite and divine sacrifice produce really chunky results due to both the range and multipliers. I often don't care about "average dps" when I can drop a mob in a couple animations.
Unarmed seems better on non crittable monsters due to the faster attack speed.
Unarmed owns skeletons especially and there are many skeletons in DDO.
I may add the longsword thing as well so I have a way to still use Healing Ki (the main reason I have the monk levles) and still get decent output from my smites. Smites with fists just aren't that noticeable. It also means my green-steels (which feature heavy use of healing amp) can be used when I'm doing healing Ki and they don't have to be stupid kamas. (I was going to go kopesh and just use the amp for my pally heals.)
Scope: This is in regards to characters who have monk levels or are looking for a TWF style build. I'm not so interested in what the absolute top DPS is overall, just the comparison of similar options.
What the number crunchers tell us
1. Fists have the following benefits
- Fast attack speed
- Ki moves
- Stance bonuses
- Base damage
- Tower of Despair Rings effects
- Full off hand str damage
- No TWF attack penalties
1b. Kamas, a weak weapon but has its uses for monks today
- Greensteel options
- Tempest works
- Ki moves (but not the death touch)
- Stance bonuses
2. Longswords have the "edge" for these reasons
- Ki moves (but not the death touch)
- Better ki generation than unarmed (per hit, speed may be more important overall)
- Stance bonuses
- Bonuses from elf racial traits
- Greensteel options
- Tempest works
3. Kopesh claims the following
- Superior crit damage
- Greensteel options
- Tempest works
The damage calculators show how the very high attack speed and base damage make them very potent against nearly any foe, better on average that the weapon options which just can't match the speed and base damage of the fists.
The calculators have also shown that with some exception for ki moves, a fighter build with monk splash can overcome the base weapon damage with speed and flat damage bonuses.
I'd add there are a few other factors to think about....
1. Kopesh's crit damage is very strong on auto crit monsters or anything that further multiplies crit effects. (say exalted smite or Kensi 3)
2. Weapon options allow two weapons, each of which could have combo effects, or in the case of greensteel may give non combat buffs.
3. Unarmed doesn't always get the "double effect" you get with TWF where you fire one affect and it procs for each hand. (I'm not sure how it does work though, unarmed I sometimes get this, sometimes not, but TWF its pretty much 100%)
4. Keep in mind that DPS like a lot of things in this game there is a "good enough" range where even if you aren't A#1 you are still killing monsters plenty fast enough to get the quest done in a zergish fashion and feel like a combat god.
5. All the comparisons we have are end-game oriented but end game is only a small % of the content in DDO.
6. There are a wider range of effect types on the slashing weapons than on fists or so it seems.
7. Fists are blunt, swords are slashing.
My conclusion type thoughts....
Whichever build has the fastest attack speed is likely to win the DPS competition. After that the highest base damage likely wins, after that the crit profile. (although crit can trump base in some cases)
For maximum DPS the fists and a pure dark monk approach seems to win out compared to Kopesh or monk+longsword.
If you like to do big monster crits or are playing around with expanded crit ranges, kopesh is pretty deadly, but its damage bump is generally trumped by raw attack speed. Longsword only can beat it because of the elf bonus and for that you have to play an elf or the slight kick up from wind stance.
But... if you factor in that you can use a longsword and still do all your ki moves, its fairly attractive if you are looking for more utility. Nothing says you can't use fists and have the longsword feat as well. Against slashing DR the longsword will beat out fists. Greensteel has many non DPS advantages the monk may find useful, light monks especially. The longswords are definitely better than the lowly Kama for this.
If you are only splashing monk for evasion or the ac bonus, you probably don't use unarmed or ki moves or you are heavily unarmed specked with Kensei and the longswords don't offer you much but the slashing damage type which you could just get with the kopesh for less feats or by using long swords without the marginal stance benefit or weak ki strikes.
More condensed conclusions
If you are a DPS nut the longswords are not worth building for
If you like versatility the longswords are a nice addition to monk
If you could give a rats ass about monk powers, use a kopesh instead of a long sword.
My personal reaction
I have a Monk 3 Paladin 15 Fighter 2
I currently use unarmed and Kopesh
The Kopesh is better DPS when I can crit because exalted smite and divine sacrifice produce really chunky results due to both the range and multipliers. I often don't care about "average dps" when I can drop a mob in a couple animations.
Unarmed seems better on non crittable monsters due to the faster attack speed.
Unarmed owns skeletons especially and there are many skeletons in DDO.
I may add the longsword thing as well so I have a way to still use Healing Ki (the main reason I have the monk levles) and still get decent output from my smites. Smites with fists just aren't that noticeable. It also means my green-steels (which feature heavy use of healing amp) can be used when I'm doing healing Ki and they don't have to be stupid kamas. (I was going to go kopesh and just use the amp for my pally heals.)