Exploiter Rangers getting love ?!

[IronClan]

From the update 5 compilation thread:


Whirling Steel Strike
Prereqs: Weapon Focus : Slashing; Proficiency in Longswords, Monk Level 1
Benefit: You treat longswords as if they were monk weapons, remaining centered when you wield them.

Interesting does this make a monk splash tempest ranger build that's swimming in feats already; even more flexible and powerful?

Let's quantify this:
Start with a Dual wielding tempest Ranger who gets longsword prof. prereq free

Gives up:
[Edit left out the feat]
1 feat for whirling steel
1 Feat for W. Focus Slash
1x crit multi to Khopesh (but saves a feat on Khop) and DA
and a little base damage to DA (+2 or +4 if Dwarf).

Gets:
better crit range than DA/axes
Efl Long Sword enhancements
centered monk bonuses:
Centered lvl 1 AC bonus on top of wis to AC bonus for example
flurry of blows attack bonus
Can maintain and regen Ki for fists of light
Stances path enhancements and finishers. (as much as 2 or 3 levels of monk will get you).

I admit I'm not a monk guy so I'm sure this will be corrected/expanded on.

W Focus is not even really a "gives up" you're likely to get specialization for the extra damage anyway and on a dual Long sword build the focus feat will help offset the lack of OTWF until you want to take it. if you even need it, you have the feats to spare anyway.

Assuming you were ALREADY sold on an exploiter style ranger build, this just might be the min/max icing on a cake that already has too much icing...

/Runs off to build a slightly deeper multi of the exploiter... I'm thinking a 2 rog 3 monk 15 ranger (Tempest III's extra attack doesn't go off when you move anyway right?)

[wolfy42]

To get tempest III you need 18 ranger levels.

You could do that with either Ranger 18/Monk 2 or Ranger 18/Monk 1/Rogue 1 (if you really want the rogue level).

You get evasion either way, but 2 bonus feats with 2 monks levels (not to mention +1 wisdom) vs rogue skills and haste boost with the rogue level (along with sneak attack damage).

You have full BAB with the ranger/monk build though while using centered weapons, and lose out on 1 bab if you add a rogue level.

The advantages you get though from using a centered weapon are just not that great in my opinion if your not taking at least 3 monk levels. 1 ac (centered bonus) 1 ab (flurry of blows) is pretty much it.


Racial enhancements are there for every race so shouldn't be counted. In fact it's arguable that you get more even using longswords as a WF (+3 from PA), halfing (Sneak attack bonuses) and even human (bonus to strength + damage boost and bonus feat).

If you snag 3+ monk levels it might be worth it for the fist of light path. unlimited light self healing is nice as are some of the buffs. Even in that case though as has been pointed out in other threads your probably better off going with h2h combat then longswords.

[Visty]

2.5% attackspeed with longswords or kopesh, what do you think will deal more damage? right, the kopesh

math has shown that even if this build would use handwraps instead of kopesh it would deal more damage with the wraps. and kopesh deal even more

[Aerendil]

Well, the general Exploiter setup is 18 Ranger / 1 Rogue / 1 Monk.
So, that said:

- you wouldn't get the centered AC bonus that comes with a Monk. Your first +1AC from that is at Monk 2 (unlike pen and paper where it's at Monk 1)
- it requires *two* feats just to acquire the ability to use longswords while centered (weapon focus + whirling steel strike). And no, this build isn't "swimming" in feats at all. You get your standard 7 feats +1 extra from Monk. +1 more if Human, but you'd probably want to be Elf for longsword enhancements, so that's out. That's 8 feats. But you *need* to buy Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack, and probably OTWF as well. Then you'll want CE, PA, and Imp. Crit.
That leaves you with 1 feat - not enough to get WSS. So you're going to have to give up something - probably CE, which takes 5 AC off the Exploiter build and turns the "good" AC into "ok" AC. It hurts.
- fists of light requires /Monk 3, which you won't do. In fact, to an Exploiter, ki is irrelevant as you'd only have tier 1 ki strikes (minimal dps increase if anything).
- again, no stances finishers. You can't do the good ones (combining light or dark with the elements) and the pure elements will not have a good enough DC with 1 monk level to land on anything.

In short, the Elf Exploiter can work with longswords - but you give up 2 feats for it, and will most likely lose CE.
And all of this is for an extra 2.5% haste in wind stance and +2 dex.
Worth it? Tough call. I'm not sure that it is.

[grodon9999]

Not worth it on an 18/1/1. Monk12/Ranger6/Something2 on the other hand . . .

[IronClan]

Tempest III's main benefit is the extra attack, which only goes off at the end of an uninterrupted attack chain no? Did they change that?

I'm thinking 3 monk for stances if you're not going for Tempest III then 15 ranger is a nice break point. so maybe 5 monk or add the rogue splash in for UMD Intim and a lot of skills.. the 2nd rog is taken late for UMD catchup. Or take 2 fighter for even more feats and full BAB

there are NINE feats with a 2 monk splash, how anyone can call that anything but swimming in feats when you're also getting TFW ITWF GTWF all for free and without needing to meet prereqs (plus a bunch of others like 4 favored enemies, many shot, bow feats etc. If you care about ranged)... Sure you need 3 feats for tempest but still leaves 6 to get PA CE Toughness W focus and Whirling steel that leaves a feat free for whatever you like (SB I. trip). If more feats are "needed" then there's two more available with 2 fighter...

If you're going pure exploiter you're not interested in this anyway as it's clearly not worth it with only 1 monk level.

[grodon9999]

Tempest III's main benefit is the extra attack, which only goes off at the end of an uninterrupted attack chain no? Did they change that?

I'm thinking 3 monk for stances if you're not going for Tempest III then 15 ranger is a nice break point. so maybe 5 monk or add the rogue splash in for UMD Intim and a lot of skills.. the 2nd rog is taken late for UMD catchup. Or take 2 fighter for even more feats and full BAB

there are NINE feats with a 2 monk splash, how anyone can call that anything but swimming in feats when you're also getting TFW ITWF GTWF all for free and without needing to meet prereqs (plus a bunch of others like 4 favored enemies, many shot, bow feats etc. If you care about ranged)... Sure you need 3 feats for tempest but still leaves 6 to get PA CE Toughness W focus and Whirling steel that leaves a feat free for whatever you like (SB I. trip). If more feats are "needed" then there's two more available with 2 fighter...

If you're going pure exploiter you're not interested in this anyway as it's clearly not worth it with only 1 monk level.

12 monk levels will get you 7.5% speed that stacks with 10% of tempest. Your two remaining level I'm thinking fighter for more feats and even get you some haste boot for another 15% when needed.


level 1-6 Ranger
Level 7-8 fighter
Level 9-20 Monk

1 Dodge
3 Mobility
6 Spring Attack
7 WF Slashing
8 IC: Slash
9 OTWF
9 Toughness (Monk)
10 Longsword feat (Monk)
11 Monk path? (Monk)
12 GTWF
14 CE (Monk)
15 PA
18 Toughness (or whatever)


Starting stats:

S 14
D 16
C 14
I 12
W 14
C 8


With levelups in STR, ENH, +2 tomes and +6 stat items:

S 30 (With Ram's might)
D 28
C 22
I 14
W 24
C 10

You could go rogue but you'd lose two feats, I think rogue works better for a Ninja Spy splashed toon because you don't need the extra feats.