Handwrap vs Khopesh vs Longsword (& Pure vs Monster)

[Eurytos]

Here are the numbers, straight from the DPS spreadsheet.

I tested these setups:
Halfling Pure Monk, 40 STR, Greater Bane Handwraps with ToD Rings (My Monk)
Elf Monster, 54 STR Greensteel Longsword
Warforged Monster, 54 STR Greensteel Khopesh
Warforged 12Fighter/8Monk, 52 STR, Greater Bane Handwraps with ToD Rings

All monsters set up with 8 haste boosts and surges. All equal levels of gear among the 4. All hasted, bard buffed, raged, etc. All Monster builds have Quick Draw for haste boosts and surges.

NOTES:
Ki Strikes not included. Monster Ki Strikes will be about ~6-8DPS increase. Warforged 12/8 will have about ~8-10DPS increase.
Halfling Monk not including Touch of Death (33.33DPS) and other Ki Strikes for another ~10-12 DPS increase (higher damage ki strikes)
2 Columns per build. Left is main hand, right is offhand. Offhand is less for LS and Khopesh because weapons (unlike unarmed) use half STR modifier for offhand damage.
Lightning Strike not included, dual wielding LS2 is roughly ~40-50DPS increase over time

5 Minutes Elapsed, 0% Fortification Target:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/radd2/correct5mincompare.jpg

5 Minutes Elapsed, 50% Fortification Target:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/radd2/correct50fort.jpg

5 Minutes Elapsed, 100% Fortification Target:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/radd2/correct100fort.jpg


These numbers are why I like pure monks. A well built/geared STR based pure monk has more DPS than a warforged monster with khopeshes, and have so much more versatility in terms of crowd control, weighted handwraps, touch of death, fortification reduction, and soon, 25% self blur (ninja spy.)

Also, Longsword/Tempest is still not as good as plain handwraps, even when handwraps are 1d10 (12/2 build). On 0% fort, Longsword is even less than khopesh, but on targets with 50% fortification, however, the Elf Monster with Longswords beats the Warforged with Khopeshes. No matter what, Warforged Kensai2/Monk with handwraps beats all "Monsters" even before Ki Strikes are added.

On 100% fort targets, Longsword gets an even larger advantage over khopeshes. A Pure monk with handwraps + touch of death would be still be superior to any other, however.

This also shows a pure halfling str based monk is more powerful than the popular Warforged Kensai2/Monk. Well, everything in this comparison is, for that matter.

Another important thing to note would be that these are only within 5 minutes, while the fighter/kensai builds have full use of boosts. The more time you add, the more the pure monk pulls ahead as it does not rely on boost and it's speed is more consistent.

Handwraps are THE MOST underrated weapon in the game, period.

Because a light monk gets all their buffs at level 3, I would suggest the 12FTR/8MNK WF build to anyone who wants to play a light monk. They will do equal damage to a Pure 20 STR based dark monk while having access to all light path abilities (except a lower max cure mass, which isn't any good at level 20 anyway.)

Anyone looking to build a monk with the most damage possible, just stick to a pure str based dark monk and use handwraps with ninja spy (unless the un-announced henshin mystic line is even better for dps.)

The only time conventional weapons are equal to or better than handwraps, are when dual weilding lightning strikes. In any other circumstance, handwraps are clearly superior.

[Consumer]

Now add some real DPS into the mix.

WF FB
WF Fighter THF
WF Fighter Khopesh
1 Barb TR egomaniac build
Halfling /khopesh Tempest Rogue
WF Archon


Test with optimal gear as players do not aim to have average gear. The purpose of DPS calcs is to make the most out of a build not make it better with average equipment.

Handwraps are not underated they are simply worse than other weapons. The builds that use them may well be good but it doesnt change 19-20 *2.

[Eurytos]

Handwraps are not underated they are simply worse than other weapons. The builds that use them may well be good but it doesnt change 19-20 *2.
Quit yapping your mouth without understanding that:

Pure Monk 2d12 (13) x2 = 26 + holy burst, shocking burst, elemental, greater bane, 12% increased speed
is better than
Khopesh 1d10 (5.5) x3 = 16.5 + greensteel elements.


I didn't bother testing the above builds because, if you haven't noticed, you are in the monk forum. The purpose of this thread is to show that the new whirling steel strike is worthless in any form, even used as a tempest/kensai/monk splash for centered longswords.

I have a pure fighter WF Khopesh user, I hate him. DPS isn't that great. Waiting on pulling blank sos to upgrade to epic then TR'ing barb.

Also, the DPS spreadsheet doesn't work with Frenzied Bersker or Glancing Blows yet, so there would be no point in trying. Obviously a zerker barbarian with an epic sos will do more damage than the above builds I listed, that's obvious and no one is arguing that.

[Quijonsith]

Because a light monk gets all their buffs at level 3, I would suggest the 12FTR/8MNK WF build to anyone who wants to play a light monk. They will do equal damage to a Pure 20 STR based dark monk while having access to all light path abilities (except a lower max cure mass, which isn't any good at level 20 anyway.)

If the cure mass you're talking about is the triple FoL finisher it is currently working off of character level, not class level, so it won't be any lower. This may change in the future of course.

I personally like my 'cure mass'. With a lesser potency I item I regularly see heals in the 30-50 range and even 60s sometimes with folks that have any amount of healing amp. It's not super, but it helps when I have to use it and it's nice to top folks off with between rounds of fighting if I have the time and Ki to spare.

[Fafnir]

As a related aside, is the monk a TR with the die increase?

I love my monk - it's a very fun class but can at times be frustrating (i.e. a little short on hps if you're doing content where your AC/build isn't helping you). The work required to get kitted with TOD rings, while not insurmountable clearly, is not trivial relative to that to get GS weapons. The pure monk would also be a little lighter on hps. The question I ask myself at times is "why monk" when you can get a huge hps character with similar DPS that is more generally survivable on a raid / on content where healing is available.

[Eurytos]

As a related aside, is the monk a TR with the die increase?

Yes, basically 1 higher average weapon damage. I did not include the +1 damage from past life, however.


I love my monk - it's a very fun class but can at times be frustrating (i.e. a little short on hps if you're doing content where your AC/build isn't helping you). The work required to get kitted with TOD rings, while not insurmountable clearly, is not trivial relative to that to get GS weapons. The pure monk would also be a little lighter on hps. The question I ask myself at times is "why monk" when you can get a huge hps character with similar DPS that is more generally survivable on a raid / on content where healing is available.

This is the question people keep asking me. "Why don't you just TR barb? You have SoS on your monk and the stuff to epic it, you have all the epic items, you would be a bad ass barb." I don't want to be a barb because I feel monks are more versatile, more fun, and simply, better. With rage, madstone and a yugo pot, my monk has 600 hit points in wind stance. That's more than most fighters. Swap to Earth stance and I can reach 700 with double madstone. That's more than you would ever need for any content currently in game.

List of things dark monks can do that a barbarian cannot:
- Shining Star Dance
- 500 Untyped damage to anything
- Allow critical hits on elementals and constructs
- Weighted Handwraps with wind stance
- Abundant Step
- Passive Monk speed
- Slow Fall / Perfect Fall
- Empty Body Speed
- Self Blur 25% (Ninja Spy)
- 10 DR/Epic or 9DR/- (Earth)
- Prevent a caster mob from being able to cast spells (Trembling Earth)
- Class Immunity to disease and poison
- Adamantine and Lawful fists for bypassing DR with any weapon
- Bursting effect rings

List of things a Barbarian can do that a monk cannot:
- Hurt themselves with Frenzy damage
- Screw up bard fascinate with glancing blows
- Demand curse removal because rage prevents it's use

The DPS difference between 2 equally maxed characters (monk and barb) is small enough to not notice. The usefulness and practicality however, night and day. I'm not saying barbs suck, I'm just saying monks DON'T suck as much as people claim they do. They just take a lot more to be on equal footing.

Barbs are the prima donnas and need an entourage *cough*(Shade/Axer)*cough*. Monks say f*** it, I'll do it myself.

[Consumer]

I have a pure fighter WF Khopesh user, I hate him. DPS isn't that great. Waiting on pulling blank sos to upgrade to epic then TR'ing barb.

Also, the DPS spreadsheet doesn't work with Frenzied Bersker or Glancing Blows yet, so there would be no point in trying. Obviously a zerker barbarian with an epic sos will do more damage than the above builds I listed, that's obvious and no one is arguing that.

You posted 1 outdated khopesh build in an outdated DPS spreadsheet to prove handwraps were better, the title clearly said:

Handwrap vs Khopesh vs Longsword (& Pure vs Monster)

You posted an incomplete comparison.

My point is that your title and final conclusion are misleading and need to be changed to be much more specific.

[Eurytos]

You posted 1 outdated khopesh build in an outdated DPS spreadsheet to prove handwraps were better, the title clearly said:

Handwrap vs Khopesh vs Longsword (& Pure vs Monster)

You posted an incomplete comparison.

My point is that your title and final conclusion are misleading and need to be changed to be much more specific.

Everything here is correct in the correct context. Once again, the whole point of this thread is to compare using khopesh, whirling steel strike longswords, or handwraps. No where am I claiming that they are the best DPS builds out there. There are obviously better builds.

People asked for an Elf LS "Monster" vs Khopesh Monster comparison in the other thread so I posted it.

[REALb0r3d]

Thanks for doing the calculations, now I get to see where my intimimonk fits on the scale. Since I'm using two weapon feats for ac and DR and GS effects at least I get a better option than kamas with the SS.

[Xeraphim]

Expand the DPS to 30 minutes sustained with buffs sustainable for 30 solid minutes with a 100% proc rate(i.e. Bard Songs, Feats, Haste, Ram's Might, etc, but not Scourge Rage, Madstone or Guards) - Epic/Elite(Raid Saver - Only DPS alive and has to tank the pit fiend).

The highest STR I could achieve with normal DDO means is a Completionist Monk that used a +4 Tome at 36(Human). Halfling would be 33(or with a VERY hard to get +5 tome, 34). Add in a Turbine Store Pot and you get 35/36 with that ultra rare tome(38 Human, 39 with tome, 40 with a STR +7 situation). Where did you get the other 4 for Halfling, or did you assume that said character would have looted an Epic Helm of the Red Dragon *AND* a +5 STR Tome(AFTER attaining at least 1 level in every class in the game first, then using the taken feat to achieve that +2 to all stats)?

5 minute bursts are nice for a perfect situation, don't get me wrong... I just like to think of the less favorable scenarios that occasionally happen.

If you use a program that can be run without any other programs(i.e. an executable instead of an Office extension - I do not and will not have Microsoft Office), could you fire off a link so I can do some calcs for groups I run with?

[Eurytos]

16 start
5 levels
4 tome
7 epic belt
1 exceptional str
2 rage
2 madstone
2 yugoloth
1 litany
-----
40 str halfling. sustained.

If you really wanted, you could get
3 collectible potion
2 store potion
2 double madstone additional
6 titans grip
8 scourge choker
4 barbarian past life rage
2 completionist
4 fire stance
-----
71 :p but no one will ever bother getting that high on a halfling monk... for 30 seconds :D

I'm not assuming anything, I have the +4 tome and epic belt (7str) already, I'm only missing litany. I understand most monks won't have that, but most won't reach the str of the other builds either. I just threw in my own personal monk as I was curious to see where I stand on calculators.

I used OpenOffice to use the spreadsheet, it's free and can run any office program extensions.

[xEthreal]

This atleast gives me hope that i can be centered with a monk :)

[Monkey_Archer]

Just wondering what gear setup your using....

Ive been playing with the numbers, full sneak attacks, no favored damage, with/without bard songs, with/without tod sets, etc... and i cant find a setup where a monk does more dps then a monster short term boosted... unless you give the monk something the monster doesnt have :rolleyes:

(a typical monster can do up to 500 dps on 0% fort, with a min 2, even without FE damage)

[Lozareth]

Khopesh 1d10 (5.5) x3 = 16.5 + greensteel elements.


Don't forget the +12 (+8 all the time no matter what, +4 in 8 1min buffs) to that damage a lvl 12 fighter gets but a monk doesn't.

[ConnorMacLoad]

I'm not assuming anything, I have the +4 tome and epic belt (7str) already, I'm only missing litany. I understand most monks won't have that, but most won't reach the str of the other builds either. I just threw in my own personal monk as I was curious to see where I stand on calculators.

I used OpenOffice to use the spreadsheet, it's free and can run any office program extensions.

I have been reading your posts very closely. More out of curiosity than anything. I love stats, numbers, logical analysis etc. Something has not been making sense to me, and I could not put my finger on it, until now.

You are comparing your (ultra elite, geared to the nuts) monk vs a monster build. Isn't that like apples and oranges? Is it really a fair argument to be making? It's like your strength example in that post. sure, you could have like 70 strength (or whatever) but who is actually going to do that. The more realistic option is a 40 strength. The monster is a fairly accessable DPS. Most people who hang out at 20 for a little bit can attain those numbers. Can the same be said for the monk you are using here?

If so, and that monk is equally as user friendly to gear out, then fine. I stand corrected. But it not, should it not make more sense to compare an equally aquired level 20 set of loot to another?

[Eurytos]

Can the same be said for the monk you are using here?

If so, and that monk is equally as user friendly to gear out, then fine. I stand corrected. But it not, should it not make more sense to compare an equally aquired level 20 set of loot to another?

My monk got it's gear before hitting 20 with any raids. As soon as I hit 20, I tr'd and still leveling up on it's first TR. It's a relatively new toon that's really only seen 3-4 months of play time from creation. The gear isn't hard to get if you're willing to work for it.

As for the monster builds, I calculated them with 54 str.

18 start
5 levels
6 item
2 rage
2 madstone
8 power surge
3 fighter levels
3 exceptional
2 rams might
2 tome
1 litany
2 yugoloth
-----------
54 STR

With a +4 tome or +3 tome and +7 str item (equal "geared to the gills") thats 56. I'd say it's close enough, 1 damage won't raise the DPS that much. I picked the number of the top of my head since I have an elf 12/6/2 that used rapiers (before epic sos) that has 54str.

[Eurytos]

Just wondering what gear setup your using....

Ive been playing with the numbers, full sneak attacks, no favored damage, with/without bard songs, with/without tod sets, etc... and i cant find a setup where a monk does more dps then a monster short term boosted... unless you give the monk something the monster doesnt have :rolleyes:

(a typical monster can do up to 500 dps on 0% fort, with a min 2, even without FE damage)

When you say short term boosted, are you saying DPS in 30 seconds only? My #s are overall DPS after 5 minutes total time fighting. With 8 boosts, only 2min40s are spent hasted.

Also if you're using the spreadsheet, you have to remember to manually change the attack speed for handwraps as it does not have a function for it normally. +12% unarmed and +10% wind stance over haste.

Another thing not included in the numbers by the way: Khopesh/Longsword can get 1d12+1 damage per swing if they have the ravager set bonus. Should be good for a decent amount of DPS.

[byzantinebob]

What about the Exploiter build (18 ranger/1 rogue/1monk)? That's the build that first came to mind when I read about Whirling Steel. I ask only because I had a long day of work and did not feel like doing math.

Also, just for comparison, perhaps throw a Light path monk in the mix.

[Angelus_dead]

Handwraps are THE MOST underrated weapon in the game, period.
Yes, it's really funny to see some people promoting Rogue/Monk builds that wield Quarterstaff when those characters are already capable of using the very superior unarmed attack routines.

[Eurytos]

Also, just for comparison, perhaps throw a Light path monk in the mix.

The pure monk in there is just a 40str monk of any path. Ki strikes and touch of death aren't included. That monk could be a light monk and have the same numbers.

[Desteria]

hum why woudl you say madstoen boots are not sustanable for 30 mins..... tankign pitfined for eq on elite solo, hes goan hit you, and if so how hes not soem of us might just ahve 10 od dpairs on some of our characters, thast at least 20 mins of clicked madstone.


Expand the DPS to 30 minutes sustained with buffs sustainable for 30 solid minutes with a 100% proc rate(i.e. Bard Songs, Feats, Haste, Ram's Might, etc, but not Scourge Rage, Madstone or Guards) - Epic/Elite(Raid Saver - Only DPS alive and has to tank the pit fiend).

The highest STR I could achieve with normal DDO means is a Completionist Monk that used a +4 Tome at 36(Human). Halfling would be 33(or with a VERY hard to get +5 tome, 34). Add in a Turbine Store Pot and you get 35/36 with that ultra rare tome(38 Human, 39 with tome, 40 with a STR +7 situation). Where did you get the other 4 for Halfling, or did you assume that said character would have looted an Epic Helm of the Red Dragon *AND* a +5 STR Tome(AFTER attaining at least 1 level in every class in the game first, then using the taken feat to achieve that +2 to all stats)?

5 minute bursts are nice for a perfect situation, don't get me wrong... I just like to think of the less favorable scenarios that occasionally happen.

If you use a program that can be run without any other programs(i.e. an executable instead of an Office extension - I do not and will not have Microsoft Office), could you fire off a link so I can do some calcs for groups I run with?

[Hydro]

So glad to see some numbers to support what I have seen while playing my barbarian and monk. Just from visable observations (mainly while tanking the Jailor in TOD or Tanking Sulu during the second wave of Orthons in VOD) I have come to the conclusion that my monk is 2/3 the dps of a fully geared barbarian with epic SoS while maintaining a perfect rotation. My monk is close to equal dps as my barb with his min 2 as long as my monk maintains a perfect strike rotation and the mob has fortification.

The perfect strike rotation is what makes or breaks a monks dps. When I am tanking Sulu in Vod I can easily maintain a perfect rotation and it feels like I equal my barbarans dps (with min 2), on the jailor in TOD though between the dogs and buffets I usually cannot keep my rotation perfect so my dps goes somewhere between 1/3-2/3 of my barb with his epic SoS. The rotation is very important and things like hitting your finisher early (2 seconds or so you can't attack), or running out of ki (no more strikes or a missed Touch of Death) is a massive drop in Dps.

Two things also to consider is that a monks dps will go up and should pass a barbarian depending on a mobs fortification, but a barbarian will completley destroy a monk for dps when it comes down to attacking a mob that's auto crit.

Even with the monk being destroyed for dps on an autocrit mob there is a good chance they made the mob auto crit with their weighted wraps so part of that barbs damage belongs to the monk anyways. :)

[Chai]

LOL @ DPS spreadsheets. D&D DPS is all situational.

Too many people are concerned about what class wins or what weapon wins, and in order to justify a choice, people have to create specific situations in order to do so, where there is only one variable for comparison purposes. The actual game doesnt get played exactly by this standard though. Having a plan is one thing, but executing that plan is a completely different story.

Build based on concept and you will never be let down unless the character doesnt fit the concept.

[Dark-Star]

So glad to see some numbers to support what I have seen while playing my barbarian and monk. Just from visable observations (mainly while tanking the Jailor in TOD or Tanking Sulu during the second wave of Orthons in VOD) I have come to the conclusion that my monk is 2/3 the dps of a fully geared barbarian with epic SoS while maintaining a perfect rotation. My monk is close to equal dps as my barb with his min 2 as long as my monk maintains a perfect strike rotation and the mob has fortification.

The perfect strike rotation is what makes or breaks a monks dps. When I am tanking Sulu in Vod I can easily maintain a perfect rotation and it feels like I equal my barbarans dps (with min 2), on the jailor in TOD though between the dogs and buffets I usually cannot keep my rotation perfect so my dps goes somewhere between 1/3-2/3 of my barb with his epic SoS. The rotation is very important and things like hitting your finisher early (2 seconds or so you can't attack), or running out of ki (no more strikes or a missed Touch of Death) is a massive drop in Dps.

Two things also to consider is that a monks dps will go up and should pass a barbarian depending on a mobs fortification, but a barbarian will completley destroy a monk for dps when it comes down to attacking a mob that's auto crit.

Even with the monk being destroyed for dps on an autocrit mob there is a good chance they made the mob auto crit with their weighted wraps so part of that barbs damage belongs to the monk anyways. :)

I think you might not be giving yourself enough credit on your monk.

If you never hit ToD or any ki strikes, you would only lose ~45+33 dps, on a chracter doing 450+ dps. Just using auto-attack will equate only to at most a 17% drop, not 33-67%.

[elldur]

I was just wondering what you tested on?..Was the target standing still, just taking the punishment?..or was it one of those house D practice dummies? My experience has shown that even if you can dish it out quickly, you still gotta survive the retaliation..so maybe that kensai2/monk might outlive the others to tell the tail?

[Chai]

Quit yapping your mouth without understanding that:

Pure Monk 2d12 (13) x2 = 26 + holy burst, shocking burst, elemental, greater bane, 12% increased speed
is better than
Khopesh 1d10 (5.5) x3 = 16.5 + greensteel elements.




Something beats khopesh? The min maxers might lynch you if they find this to be true. Start running now while you have the chance! :p

While true on paper, I like to build toons where the character is doing the damage and not relying on the slew of weapon effects to provide it. Then I dont need +? alignment or element of greater bane for every single mob + TOD rings with the right burst damage for said mob + worry about bypassing DR in situations. I can just worry about bypassing DR and my build will do the rest of the heavy lifting.

THF barbarians for instance, could get away with carrying a mineral 2 ax, a triple positive maul, and an epic SOS for DPS purposes. Everything else is icing on the cake.

[Dark-Star]

He is calculating it in a vacuum, under ideal conditions for all models involved. This is not going to be everyones' exact DPS in the game, as MANY other factors figure in, the main one being player skill; this data is presented so that we as a community might compare the potential DPS of various builds apples to apples. Make sense?

[Hydro]

It's very possible I am underestimating my monk but it is also possible I am just getting lo rolls.

And yes dps spreadsheets will never be a 100% accurate but they are still good at get appoximate dps numbers. If a speadsheet says something will be more dps then chances are unless your rollsbare bad the spreadsheet should be accurate enough.

[xEthreal]

My next build is now going to consist of a 12fighter/8monk build.

[Eurytos]

Spreadsheets are never accurate, I'm one of the people that hate those who argue with it because they don't take into account many in game variables. My numbers aren't there to be the definitive answer, they are there to compare 2 weapons.

That being said, any number of variables can sway the DPS.

For example, Monk run speed. If the next fight is a good distance away, take for example Epic VoN1 after getting the ready room key and back tracking to the other side, my monk will reach the ogres at the next fight at least 30-45 seconds before anyone else because of run speed and abundant step. I'll dance one ogre and kill the other. By the time the group catches up, I've killed 2 ogres.

Speed is a key variable in DPS. I have a guildie paladin with lots of epic items, epic sos and epic scale included who can smite crit for over 1200 damage. Problem is, he can't keep up with monks and barbarian speed so he's always in the back running and trying to catch up while the monks and barbs are already killing things.


Barbarians are the only class that can really keep up with a monk's pace, and yes, they will do more damage than a monk. They can stun things fairly reliably with stunning blow as well. Problem is, when they're using an epic sos and stunning blow, they don't stun nearly as often as monk with weighted 5s so I often see Barbs running to my target to leech of the stuns to get their DPS in. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but in that case, it's the monk adding DPS by allowing more auto crit, not the barb.

Speed, weighted, and crowd control are why I prefer running epics with 3 good DPS built monks instead of barbarians.

[TPICKRELL]

My next build is now going to consist of a 12fighter/8monk build.I've got one of those, and they are quite interesting to play. I like mine, but it is very different from my pure monk. It moves slow (makes it feel very different), saves less, takes more damage but has a lot more hit points does more consistent damage under a lot of circumstances... Its an unarmed fighter with a monk splash and it plays like one.

I've just hit max xp but haven't leveled to 20 yet because I'm running with a few other toons that are level 16 and I don't want to slam their XP in quests. Very much looking forward to leveling to 20 so I can see what power surge does to the build.

[Chai]

He is calculating it in a vacuum, under ideal conditions for all models involved. This is not going to be everyones' exact DPS in the game, as MANY other factors figure in, the main one being player skill; this data is presented so that we as a community might compare the potential DPS of various builds apples to apples. Make sense?


Makes sense on paper.

So does Reganomics.

If everything was this absolute it could be used to justify build strength, but alas this is not so. The issue here is that people DO use data like this as an absolute measuring stick of uberness or gimp, when in fact, we are all in the gray area somewhere in between.

[Eurytos]

Not sure why you're getting so worked up over this Chai. This isn't a definitive "my build is better than yours" comparison. This is posted as a Longsword vs Handwrap vs Khopesh comparison and a DPS Spreadsheet is an absolutely acceptable way of comparing different weapons under the exact same circumstances.

Can't do that any other way.

[Mobeius]

If there is one thing I have realized in this game is that everything is situational.

Sure, can I make a tank for Suul or Arty, etc? Sure but you are typically confined to that role, still a tough char but usually shines in specific circumstances.

Monks are so versatile and the game is not all about DPS, it is also about damage mitgation and avoidance. Which is always going to be the tools each monk has.

Seriously, how many players are going to have all the gear ever listed in said builds? All the favor, all the special potions? Yes there ARE players that have all that, even completionist, or so I hear... I play pretty regulary, but I have one TR and hes level 15. Does he have a ton of gear yes... Is my monk the most uber or the best, not by a long shot, is he still fun and able to keep pace with most characters, yes he can.

There is a point of diminishing returns when trying to go for the most uber char. Sometimes the rules change as well and make said uber character a lot less useful. Exploiter build = the new "batman" build. I cant tell you how many batman builds I saw retired because of changes they made to the game.

In time I am sure there will be new changes and new builds, honestly I just dont have that kind of time to constantly remake toons and re-equip them. Heck, I am getting burnt on just reflagging everything and now tryng to get docents for my TR monk.

[Aerendil]

Eury, have you run any tests on the various unarmed damage dice tiers?
i.e. what would the numbers show for 2d6 or 2d8 fists?

Just curious as I have the feeling even on a 12 monk / 8 whatever-else splash (be it /Rogue, or /Ranger tempest) the unarmed monk dps would still win out over swords.

[Eurytos]

12Monk/7Rog/1*** will win out over longswords, and will even do more than a pure monk under ideal conditions because of sneak attack damage.

The difference between 2d10 (11avg) and 2d8(9avg) is 2 average damage per punch. 2d10(11) vs 2d6(7) at level 12 becomes 4 damage per punch, but you gain 4d6+9 sneak attack from rogue levels. Clear DPS advantage to rogue splash.

Monk gets 2.5% faster with windstance IV, but rogue levels get 5x 25% haste boost.

It becomes a difference in play style. Whether you want the most damage, (12monk/7rog/1ftr) or the most versatility and utility (20monk.) Then again, rogue levels provide trap skills and umd so one could argue that provides the same "amount" of utility, just a different kind. The rogue splash will suffer when it has aggro though, lower BaB and loss of sneak attacks would cripple it. Anything higher than 0% Fortification would close the DPS gap as fortification can negate sneak attack damage as well.

[Mobeius]

Have you factored in increased fist damage for TR'ed monks or the bracer?

[Eurytos]

TR'd fist damage is in the chart for both the 12ftr/8monk and pure monk, but again, the difference TR fists make is very small. +1 average damage for pure monk, +1.5 average for the 12/8.

Bracer fist damage is terrible. Don't ever use earth stance for that. +1 damage per punch vs. 10% speed. 10% speed by staying in wind stance is the obvious choice. Even fire stance adds more damage than Jidz-tet'ka + Earth Stance.

[Aerendil]

It becomes a difference in play style. Whether you want the most damage, (12monk/7rog/1ftr) or the most versatility and utility (20monk.) Then again, rogue levels provide trap skills and umd so one could argue that provides the same "amount" of utility, just a different kind. The rogue splash will suffer when it has aggro though, lower BaB and loss of sneak attacks would cripple it. Anything higher than 0% Fortification would close the DPS gap as fortification can negate sneak attack damage as well.

Well, keep in mind it would be 5d6+9 SA dice (with Ninja I). Possibly 6d6+9 if Ninja Spy II offers another d6. Plus Tharne's and a possible past-life Rogue TR bonus (+10).

The loss of sneak attacks is the main thing to worry about, but that should only affect you solo. In a group scenerio, you'd be flanking things and anything not normally SA-able can be altered to be via ToDespair (12 monk DC = 22+wis mod, so 28-29ish?).

And then of course there's radiance weaponry (SSs), radiance guards, deception weaponry (avail. on handwraps), and unbalancing strike (DC = 10+6+wis mod, so probably 22ish. Not bad - about the same as a smiter's DC).

But yes, definitely comes down to playstyle :)


*edit* - and could add another +1d6 from Assassin I, or hold out for Scorpion Wraith if Drow for whatever that may bring. So we could be looking at 7d6+27 SA damage with Rogue TR past-life + 7 Rogue levels + Tharne's. O.o.

[Mobeius]

TR'd fist damage is in the chart for both the 12ftr/8monk and pure monk, but again, the difference TR fists make is very small. +1 average damage for pure monk, +1.5 average for the 12/8.

Bracer fist damage is terrible. Don't ever use earth stance for that. +1 damage per punch vs. 10% speed. 10% speed by staying in wind stance is the obvious choice. Even fire stance adds more damage than Jidz-tet'ka + Earth Stance.

Haste pots can the speed for windstance, and earth stance also provides other benefits. I been playing with earth stance and have actually been finding it useful in a lot of situations. However you are only comparing DPS...

[Eurytos]

Haste pots can the speed for windstance, and earth stance also provides other benefits. I been playing with earth stance and have actually been finding it useful in a lot of situations. However you are only comparing DPS...

Haste pots do not account for wind stance. Wind stance has an additional 10% over haste. Earth stance has DR, which does not stack with the 10dr/epic from 20 monk, and is only useful for it's hit points. 98% of the time, you don't need those hit points.

[Jasam01]

I think people are outright missing the point since their too busy trying to hate on spreadsheets.

They show that the new feat option is inferior to it's alternitives in your standard situation, which is all it was comparing.

Some things SO have other merits to consider. But in the case of our new feat, we are talking extra negatives for LESS DPS.

Yes, some people make flawed comparisions, but there is not one in THIS case, and the threads gone all over the place trying to find examples why a speadsheet might fail for OTHER situations.

Not to mention that even then, having the raw DPS numbers would let you MAKE a comparision of how much benifit your getting from getting to a mob 3-4 seconds on average vs 20-30 DPS...

[Mobeius]

Haste pots do not account for wind stance. Wind stance has an additional 10% over haste. Earth stance has DR, which does not stack with the 10dr/epic from 20 monk, and is only useful for it's hit points. 98% of the time, you don't need those hit points.

yes the DR doesnt become as useful as level 20, but one epic mobs it could help, but in all all pratical purposes you are correct. If you noticed I didnt say it would replace wind stance, I said it could cover it... but thats just my opinion.

[Eurytos]

yes the DR doesnt become as useful as level 20, but one epic mobs it could help, but in all all pratical purposes you are correct. If you noticed I didnt say it would replace wind stance, I said it could cover it... but thats just my opinion.

Most epic mobs don't bypass epic DR either. :p

[Mobeius]

Most epic mobs don't bypass epic DR either. :p

BUT some do....

[stormarcher]

What would the Dps numbers be like on a build like this:

12 fighter 7 rogue 1 monk

12 fighter gets you kensai II
fighter haste boost IV
Power surge
7 rogue gives you 3d6 (?) sneak attack damage and extra skill points
1 monk gives you un armed dps.


Or would it be better to just go 12 fighter 8 monk?

[DethTrip]

It seems to me the real point of this thread is to show that monks are a viable dps option, not to say they will do the most possible dps in pure numbers. I personally love playing monk for many reasons. Who cares if another build does marginally better dps in pure numbers. Versatility and not being a healing sponge by having high AC, saves, and improved evasion helps the team a lot more than marginally more pure numbers dps IMO.

[LAWPRE]

It is supposed to be coming in like a week or so and will change how people build their monks. Among the changes is a PrE that makes Long Sword a Monk weapon. So, debate is over, wait for the PrE and get the best of both worlds!!!

(okay, new debate will be if PrE is worth it and does a Long Sword Monk do more damage than handwraps but...)

[Aerendil]

It is supposed to be coming in like a week or so and will change how people build their monks.

Re: U5, where did you get this release date info from?

[Quijonsith]

It is supposed to be coming in like a week or so and will change how people build their monks. Among the changes is a PrE that makes Long Sword a Monk weapon. So, debate is over, wait for the PrE and get the best of both worlds!!!

(okay, new debate will be if PrE is worth it and does a Long Sword Monk do more damage than handwraps but...)

What PrE uses long swords? Do you have some inside info on henshin mystic or something? If you're thinking ninja spy that uses short swords.

[Darkrok]

What PrE uses long swords? Do you have some inside info on henshin mystic or something? If you're thinking ninja spy that uses short swords.

Compiled Update 5 Information (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=248658)


Whirling Steel Strike
Prereqs: Weapon Focus : Slashing; Proficiency in Longswords, Monk Level 1
Benefit: You treat longswords as if they were monk weapons, remaining centered when you wield them.

That's a Feat by the way...doesn't mention it in the quote.

[Jasam01]

Isn't the whole point of this thread showing that longswords might well be the worst of both worlds before people waste time getting the feat? (ceps for elf monsters aganst >0% fort mobs)

The PrE your think of, shinto monk, gives shortswords, requires MORE feats, and isn't aplical to dark side monks.

[Dark-Star]

Thinking more about this comparison, and Eury please correct my numbers here as I am making some assumptions about your calculations.

12monk/6ranger/2rog using LS2 longswords.

7.5 wind3 haste
10 tempest haste
15 madstone haste
8 haste boost 1 (15% x20 secs out of thirty for 4/5 mins)
40.5% haste over 5 minutes

Unarmed pure monk
10 wind4 haste
12.5 innate wrap speed
15 madstone haste
37.5% haste

Now, wraps average 11 base damage, LS 5.5 + Rams Might of 3 + 6.5 average Sneak Attack from Rogue = 15. Wraps get no penalty to str for off-hand attacks, so assuming 40 str (+15), that's 7.5/2 or 4 more damage for the wraps, or 15. On mobs that can be sneak attacked base damage is idential. (15 base + 15 str + 5 PA = 35 + 8Guile + 8 Tharnes = 51. 51 x 1,329 attacks / 300 seconds = 226 DPS. Crits for wraps add 21 DPS, 42 DPS for the longsword.

Wraps have Touch of Death, which gives a static 500 every 15 seconds under perfect conditions, or 33 DPS.

Longswords get Lightning Strike which is a 2.5% chance of 600 damage, or 15 average damage per hit. To translate that per second, we'll take you attack numbers from the spreadsheet for pure monk, 664.65 x2 = 1,329 attacks in five minutes. The above longsword user is 3% faster over that 5 minutes, so 1.03 x 1,329 = 1,369. Continuing the conversion, 1,369 x15 average LS damage = 20,538 damage over 5 minutes, or 68.5 DPS.

The difference in Ki Strikes between tier 3 and 4 is ~5 DPS, in favor of the pure monk.

Elemental damage for the pure monk is holy burst + shocking burst (8.5 + 4) + holy of pure good (10.5) = 23 average per hit, or 102 DPS.

Elemental damage from an LS longsword is holy + shocking burst + shocking blast (7 + 4 + 4.7) = 16 average per hit, or 73 DPS.

Summary of DPS Differences:

Pure Monk:

226 base damage dps
21 crit dps
Touch of Death 33 dps
Ki difference 5 dps
elemntal 102 dps
Total = 387 dps

12m/6ra/2ro:

226 x 1.03 = 233 base damage dps
42 x 1.03 = 43 base crit dps
LS 68.5 dps
elemental 73 dps
Total = 417.5 dps

Any incremental added damage like bard song, ninja spy, ToD ring set effects or epic armor all favor the 12/7/1 due to the 3% higher attack speed.

Now as time extends beyond 5 minutes, the monk evens out or pulls ahead. On partial or full fortification enemies, the monk will also have an advantage.

This is not intended to show the DPS # of either build, but to provide a side by side comparison that looks much closer than perhaps we originally thought. Please let me know if there were errors or omisions.

[Quijonsith]

Compiled Update 5 Information (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=248658)


I am fully familiar with the compiled update 5 info. There is a feat that allows longs swords, not a PrE. The person I responded to said:


Among the changes is a PrE that makes Long Sword a Monk weapon.

Which is why I asked what information he has that says there is a PrE that makes long swords monk weapons. Whirling steel strike is not a PrE, it's a feat.

[Jasam01]

...

The only 'major' problem I would say is your comparing an apple to an orange.

While it is is nice to see....

Seeing what the DPS numbers with kopesh or wraps in the 2nd build would be much more useful info imo.

[oweieie]

With rage, madstone and a yugo pot, my monk has 600 hit points in wind stance. That's more than most fighters. Swap to Earth stance and I can reach 700 with double madstone. That's more than you would ever need for any content currently in game.

600 HPs is NOT more than most fighters using pots with rage and madstone. 600 is what a lot of the better fighters will sit at unbuffed. And 700 with earth stance, which won't hold aggro and lowers your DPS isn't really meaningful.

As for 443 DPS... uh... At 4.1 strikes per second that means your average fist damage is 100. How do you get 100?

15 str
5 wraps
16 sneak (halfling + tharne's)
3.5 shock ToD ring
7 holy burst ToD ring
3.5 acid burst wrap
3.5 risia icy burst wrap
3.5 risia frost wrap
1 force ritual wrap
4.5 bleed wrap
3.5 epic robe fire
13 base
= 79 non-crit hit, without strikes, while sneak attacking mobs that can bleed and have no resistance to fire, cold, force, acid, shock or good. Against a lot of mobs a lot of those numbers go away. Without sneak attack that drops to 63, against mobs with typical devil resist you lose acid, fire and cold dropping that number to 49... 49 is not the 100 damage per swing your numbers would lead people to believe. And I'm ignoring DR. If you go metalline you're dropping even more damage.

Instead of bypassing silver or whatever stupid **** Shintao will be giving, they should make it bypass mobs elemental resistance. THAT would help. Suddenly risia wraps, acid ToD rings and epic robe fire damage would land on things and give an actual damage boost on mobs that monks currently have trouble damaging.

[Quijonsith]

Instead of bypassing silver or whatever stupid **** Shintao will be giving, they should make it bypass mobs elemental resistance. THAT would help. Suddenly risia wraps, acid ToD rings and epic robe fire damage would land on things and give an actual damage boost on mobs that monks currently have trouble damaging.

Maybe that's what henshin mystic will proved.

[REALb0r3d]

600 HPs is NOT more than most fighters using pots with rage and madstone. 600 is what a lot of the better fighters will sit at unbuffed. And 700 with earth stance, which won't hold aggro and lowers your DPS isn't really meaningful.

As for 443 DPS... uh... At 4.1 strikes per second that means your average fist damage is 100. How do you get 100?

15 str
5 wraps
16 sneak (halfling + tharne's)
3.5 shock ToD ring
7 holy burst ToD ring
3.5 acid burst wrap
3.5 risia icy burst wrap
3.5 risia frost wrap
1 force ritual wrap
4.5 bleed wrap
3.5 epic robe fire
13 base
= 79 non-crit hit, without strikes, while sneak attacking mobs that can bleed and have no resistance to fire, cold, force, acid, shock or good. Against a lot of mobs a lot of those numbers go away. Without sneak attack that drops to 63, against mobs with typical devil resist you lose acid, fire and cold dropping that number to 49... 49 is not the 100 damage per swing your numbers would lead people to believe. And I'm ignoring DR. If you go metalline you're dropping even more damage.

Instead of bypassing silver or whatever stupid **** Shintao will be giving, they should make it bypass mobs elemental resistance. THAT would help. Suddenly risia wraps, acid ToD rings and epic robe fire damage would land on things and give an actual damage boost on mobs that monks currently have trouble damaging.

The toon he used for comparison has 40 Str... thats 51 more DPS than you allotted... With "your" calculations 79+12=91 non crit hit. He used a calculator that accounts for 100% fort, meaning no SA. Those numbers are listed as well. As for the rest you can switch rings and wraps if need be.
There are also other sets that up the damage E.G. shintao set you didn't list.

[Emili]

Much of this is also why the devs are looking down avenues of fortification variation (debuffing such), considering lowering epic mob hp and raising bars in mob AC slightly in such avenues - the backlash of the Epic is silly crowd shocked them a little - their aim - to manage a relative and positive meaning on AC, remove Fort's dependancy and raise some reason for all classes to function adequately in such realms in the long haul...

[kanbeki]

Snip

Nice clean, seen a build like that before ;)

[oweieie]

The toon he used for comparison has 40 Str... thats 51 more DPS than you allotted...

You... really should read closer. 40 str is +15 damage a hit. It is included. It's... the first line in fact. I did miss power attack however, which is another 5. Still, realistically, wraps are getting HALF the DPS he's saying.

[REALb0r3d]

/hijack

Check my DPS then and tell me what you think about monkly DPS.
Its the 3rd post.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243941

[Xyfiel]

/hijack

Check my DPS then and tell me what you think about monkly DPS.
Its the 3rd post.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243941

That build has errors in it, therefore, have to assume the dps does also.

[REALb0r3d]

What errors? I'd like to know...

[Xyfiel]

What errors? I'd like to know...

How often have you been in defender stance and raged at the same time, since stance blocks rage effect?
How often do you have titans grip and double madstone? Sadly that one is getting more common in dps calculations, yet is probably the most illogical situation for any calculation over a minute. Plus it takes time to cast them both, which is lost dps after the initial prebuff is over in a long fight. If you are tanking and getting hit, you will never be unmadstoned, so adding in another titan or casted madstone is impossible.
You factored in all the yugo pots pros, but none of the cons.
No cha item in AC mode, only guard mode.
I stopped there.

[REALb0r3d]

How often have you been in defender stance and raged at the same time, since stance blocks rage effect?
How often do you have titans grip and double madstone? Sadly that one is getting more common in dps calculations, yet is probably the most illogical situation for any calculation over a minute. Plus it takes time to cast them both, which is lost dps after the initial prebuff is over in a long fight. If you are tanking and getting hit, you will never be unmadstoned, so adding in another titan or casted madstone is impossible.
You factored in all the yugo pots pros, but none of the cons.
No cha item in AC mode, only guard mode.
I stopped there.

I didn't know about defender stance and rage, never played a fighter.
Titans grip and double madstone are separated from the rest of the calculations because its silliness, and mostly fun for me. Hence...
Stats:Standing/Common/Peak(Situational)
Must have deleted my CHA kama... don't know how that happened.

So the only error is the rage and stance since I threw rage on my toon in Stalwart 2 and my missing kama.
I like my silly top end numbers though :rolleyes: