Newbie drow THF build critique?

[Dridien]

I've been playing for about a month and have managed to unlock the Drow race and was interested in the paladin class, i looked through a lot of the builds and guides on building a paladin, but couldn't find a specific build i liked that didn't rely HEAVILY on tomes, so i decided to make my own.

The goal of the build is to do decent DPS while not being 1shot if i get aggro. By no means do i mean to tank, but id like to avoid being killed in a single hit.

This is what i was able to piece together from what I've seen on the forums, please give any suggestions or ideas that might come to mind. thank you.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(20 Paladin)
Hit Points: 302
Spell Points: 246
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 14
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 21
Dexterity 16 17
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 19

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 5
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 14
Bluff 3 4
Concentration 1 1
Diplomacy 3 4
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 4
Heal -1 -1
Hide 3 3
Intimidate 3 4
Jump 3 5
Listen -1 1
Move Silently 3 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 0 2
Spot -1 1
Swim 3 5
Tumble 4 4
Use Magic Device 5 15

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 5 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 7 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III


Level 10 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II


Level 11 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II


Level 13 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III


Level 14 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I


Level 17 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III


Level 19 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice III


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II



I didn't include any gear since i don't know what ill be using at high end, and i tried not to be dependent on tomes that weren't really easy to get.

changed the build to the one below

[Angelus_dead]

but couldn't find a specific build i liked that didn't rely HEAVILY on tomes,
It seems likely that you misjudged whether a build "relies" on tomes simply because it has some listed. The only way a paladin build would be reliant on tomes would be if it used +3 or +4 tomes to qualify for GTWF or CE.


This is what i was able to piece together from what I've seen on the forums, please give any suggestions or ideas that might come to mind. thank you.
Starting 18 charisma is too high for a paladin. You can put some of those points into constitution instead.

The target is to reach charisma of 20 or 18 so you can get Divine Might IV or III. Starting with 18 lets you easily get a +2 tome to reach 20, but there are also +3 and +4 tomes out there. You'd be better off not trying to get DM4 until you get one of those superior tomes.

[MithrilSoul]

Just wanted to point out that when you look at the racial stats for Drow, they tend to fit better with a TWF pally than a THF pally. Whereas for THF pallys, there are a number of other races that probably work a lot better than Drow.

Drow racial weapon enhancements are all for smaller weapons as well (rapiers and short swords, I believe), which also would point to a TWF pally.

If your heart is set on Drow THF, then by all means go for it. But if you aren't wedded to the idea, a TWF drow would be more efficient at taking advantage of your Drow racials.

[Dridien]

It seems likely that you misjudged whether a build "relies" on tomes simply because it has some listed. The only way a paladin build would be reliant on tomes would be if it used +3 or +4 tomes to qualify for GTWF or CE.


Starting 18 charisma is too high for a paladin. You can put some of those points into constitution instead.

The target is to reach charisma of 20 or 18 so you can get Divine Might IV or III. Starting with 18 lets you easily get a +2 tome to reach 20, but there are also +3 and +4 tomes out there. You'd be better off not trying to get DM4 until you get one of those superior tomes.

I might have misjudged, not 100% sure, but i don't want to rely on getting a +3 or +4 tome to be able to get an enhancement. i really dont want to rely on egtting more than a +2 tome by 20.


Just wanted to point out that when you look at the racial stats for Drow, they tend to fit better with a TWF pally than a THF pally. Whereas for THF pallys, there are a number of other races that probably work a lot better than Drow.

Drow racial weapon enhancements are all for smaller weapons as well (rapiers and short swords, I believe), which also would point to a TWF pally.

If your heart is set on Drow THF, then by all means go for it. But if you aren't wedded to the idea, a TWF drow would be more efficient at taking advantage of your Drow racials.

TWF would be nice, but again, it seems to take too many tomes. i couldnt find a way to do it without having to get at least 1 +3 tome and another tome, granted i didnt try all that hard heh. my highest char right now is lvl 10, so i dont have any way to reliably get any tomes at the moment, thats why i picked THF.

Thank you very much for the input though.

[Angelus_dead]

i don't want to rely on getting a +3 or +4 tome to be able to get an enhancement. i really dont want to rely on egtting more than a +2 tome by 20.
So don't. You don't even need that enhancement at all.

[Dridien]

Looks like lowering my charisma to 16 and raising con to 14 at 20 gives me 20 more HP and 1 more concentration, 1 less to all saves, 2 less damage a hit from divine might, 20 less health per lay on hands, 2 less damage per smite and 1 less UMD. honestly id rather just have the charisma. or is 20hp worth more than about a third of a hit from trash at 20 like i think it is?

[Angelus_dead]

Looks like lowering my charisma to 16 and raising con to 14 at 20 gives me 20 more HP and 1 more concentration, 1 less to all saves, 2 less damage a hit from divine might, 20 less health per lay on hands, 2 less damage per smite and 1 less UMD
1. To raise constitution to 14 means only reducing charisma to 17, not 16. Higher numbers in a stat cost more points.
2. Fortitude save would be the same or higher.
3. The smite, LOH, and concentration is quite irrelevant.
4. Except for the Divine Might 4, you'd get all those benefits via Paladin Charisma 3.
5. Eventually someday you will find a +3 or +4 charisma tome, giving you DM4 and the rest of the charisma stuff. It's not so much a question of getting that stuff or not, but getting it right away or later.


is 20hp worth more than about a third of a hit from trash at 20 like i think it is?
The more important question is if 20hp will mean a single boss attack leaves you at 10 hp or -10.

[Dridien]

Drow have a +2 cha and -2 con so it does cost 4 points to bring cha from 16 to 18 and 4 points to bring con from 12 to 14.

Your right about the fort save, my mistake on that.

and getting rid of dm4 would only free up 4 AP, enough to get pally cha 2, not 3, so it wouldnt have the same effect.

And finally that would mean needing a +2 cha tome by lvl 15... not all that hard but i would end up having to farm for it and i hate farming :(

That is a very good point though, i didnt think of it that way, thank you. I'm not honestly sure which is better now heh.

Would it work if i just worked to get a +2 con tome? or are they significantly harder to get or something?

Wow... i just realized something... at start i put 2 points into wisdom since it wasnt enough to get anymore cha or str and i figured 1 con was useless, but if i go with 14 con 8 wis 17 cha it shouldnt be a problem to get a +1 tome by 15. This also means im not wasting those 2 points by having them in wisdom when a +6 item would be enough. thank you very much, its not giving me the option to rep you or i would.

[Gercho]

Hey, i think your build its ok, just some minor things you could do:

drop wis to 8 and get con 13, i know, is a minor detail, but you dont really need wis, unless you want to cast your lvl 1 spells at lvl 4, and in that case you will have like 2sp, so not worthy to invest any points, you will be able to cast your spells without need of a tome. Besides, con 13 will allow you to take advantage of +1 con tomes, much easier to find than +2.
I agree that if you go pure, 18 cha is a good idea, by lvl 20 you should be able to get a +2 cha tome to qualify for DMIV.

About TWF, drows twf are not tome intensive, all you really need is +1 dex tome to qualify for itwf (you dont need to get the feat at lvl 6, can wait till 9 or even 12) and a +2 cha tome to qualify for DM III, yes, you will lose DMIV, but thats 2 damage each attack, but twf for a paladin will do MUCH more damage than THF, even with 1 less tier of DM.
You get double benefit from smites and divine sacrifices, and your dmIII counts equally for both hands, while you are getting DMIV for half the attacks if you do THF, so even from DM you get more on twf DM III than THF DMIV, besides, if you ever get a +4 cha tome you can get DMIV anyway, so you have the possibility eventually, though as i said you dont need it.
As mithril said, just the drow rapier enhancements will give you the +2 damage to compensate the DM difference.

For TWF starting stats would be:

str 16
dex 16 (need +1 dex tome)
con 12
int 10
wis 8
cha 16 (need +2 cha tome)

[Dridien]

Hey, i think your build its ok, just some minor things you could do:

drop wis to 8 and get con 13, i know, is a minor detail, but you dont really need wis, unless you want to cast your lvl 1 spells at lvl 4, and in that case you will have like 2sp, so not worthy to invest any points, you will be able to cast your spells without need of a tome. Besides, con 13 will allow you to take advantage of +1 con tomes, much easier to find than +2.
I agree that if you go pure, 18 cha is a good idea, by lvl 20 you should be able to get a +2 cha tome to qualify for DMIV.

About TWF, drows twf are not tome intensive, all you really need is +1 dex tome to qualify for itwf (you dont need to get the feat at lvl 6, can wait till 9 or even 12) and a +2 cha tome to qualify for DM III, yes, you will lose DMIV, but thats 2 damage each attack, but twf for a paladin will do MUCH more damage than THF, even with 1 less tier of DM.
You get double benefit from smites and divine sacrifices, and your dmIII counts equally for both hands, while you are getting DMIV for half the attacks if you do THF, so even from DM you get more on twf DM III than THF DMIV, besides, if you ever get a +4 cha tome you can get DMIV anyway, so you have the possibility eventually, though as i said you dont need it.
As mithril said, just the drow rapier enhancements will give you the +2 damage to compensate the DM difference.

For TWF starting stats would be:

str 16
dex 16 (need +1 dex tome)
con 12
int 10
wis 8
cha 16 (need +2 cha tome)

Thank you for pointing that out, i didnt think it was doable with less than a +3 tome. what do you think of this?


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.34
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(20 Paladin)
Hit Points: 302
Spell Points: 246
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 14
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 21
Dexterity 16 17
Constitution 12 12
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 16 19

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 5
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 4 14
Bluff 3 4
Concentration 1 1
Diplomacy 3 4
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 3 4
Heal -1 -1
Hide 3 3
Intimidate 3 4
Jump 3 5
Listen -1 1
Move Silently 3 3
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 0 2
Spot -1 1
Swim 3 5
Tumble 4 4
Use Magic Device 5 15

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I


Level 2 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II


Level 5 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 7 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III


Level 10 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II


Level 11 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II


Level 13 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III


Level 14 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might III


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I


Level 17 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III


Level 19 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice III


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Weapons of Good
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II




I'm taking the +1 tome at 5 since i have enough turbine points to afford it now. to save room all the skill gains are in UMD and balance.

[Gercho]

Thats a good build, i wouldnt spend turbine points on a +1 tome if you are not vip, you can get a +1 tome not too expensive on the AH (if you are on thelanis and you dont have the money i will buy one for you) for not vip i recommend to use all their tps for buying modules, now if you are vip and you dont have anything else to do with the bonus points go ahead.

About the build, the only difference is that i would change the order of your feats a bit, take improved critical at 9 and power attack at 18. Its just a minor detail anyway...
Btw, i didnt checked your enhancements since you can redo those cheaply if you screw or dont like something...

[Dridien]

I did change the feats around because i think your right about that. the enhancements are essentially the same except instead of dm4, bulwark of good 2, and resistance of good 2, i have melee attack 2 and melee damage 2. essentially -2 ac and saves for +2 damage and attack. and like you said, if i find i need those saves and AC i can easily respec.