Cleric / Rogue My first build (be gentle :p)

[eden2760]

Let me start by saying I have been playing tabletop DnD for ages; with that said, I've only been around DDO for about a month, but am starting to get a feel for things -- but I digress.

Besides the pure monk I'm playing now, this is my first build. I've tweaked it out over about a weak of messing around / doing a little research / seeing what looks best, etc. etc. I /THINK/ it looks good on paper... but am not sure how it plays. I've heard a couple of people say pure cleric is too good to screw up... maybe they're right, maybe not. To each their own maybe.

In any case, without droning on, I would appreciate any constructive feedback on this build. I have two primary concerns in mind: finding/disabling traps, and healing, healing, healing (It's going to be for the most part a grouping-only character - to gather gear / items for other characters).

Please give me some direction (both good and bad points) so I can know if this will even be feasible to make work productively. Sorry for the long-windedness... without further ado:

Dinaenen Wulfson
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(1 Rogue / 19 Cleric)
Hit Points: 244
Spell Points: 1591

BAB: 14/14/19/24
Fortitude: 11
Reflex: 7
Will: 18

Abilities (32 pt build: starting, Ending)

Strength 8, 8
Dexterity 8, 8
Constitution 10, 10
Intelligence 16, 16
Wisdom 16, 24 +3 From Levels, +2 From Tome, +3 From Enhancements
Charisma 16, 20 +2 From Levels, +2 From Enhancements

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7

Skills (Starting, Ending)
Balance 3 3
Bluff 3 4
Concentration 2 23
Diplomacy 7 25
Disable Device 7 26
Haggle 3 4
Heal 5 7
Hide 3 3
Intimidate 3 4
Jump -1 -1
Listen 7 9
Move Silently 3 3
Open Lock 3 3
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 3 3
Search 7 26
Spot 7 9
Swim -1 -1
Tumble n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 7 8

Feats:
[1] (Selected) Diehard [/B]
[1] Simple Weapon Proficiency (ALL)
[1] (Human Bonus) Toughness
[1] (Automatic) Attack
[1] (Automatic) Heroic Durability
[1] (Automatic) Light/Medium/Heavy Armor Proficiency
[1] (Automatic) Simple/Martial Weapon Proficiencies:
[1] (Automatic) Sneak
[1] (Automatic) Sneak Attack
[1] (Automatic) Trapfinding
[2] (Automatic) Heavy Armor Proficiency
[2] (Automatic) Magical Training
[2] (Automatic) Medium Armor Proficiency
[2] (Automatic) Shield Proficiency (General)
[2] (Automatic) Turn Undead
[3] (Selected) Toughness
[3] (Automatic) Defensive Fighting
[3] (Automatic) Sunder
[3] (Automatic) Trip
[6] (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
[9] (Selected) Mental Toughness
[12] (Selected) Improved Mental Toughness
[15] (Selected) Extend Spell
[18] (Selected) Toughness

Enhancements:
[2] Follower of the Sovereign Host
[2] Cleric Heal I
[2] Cleric Life Magic I
[2] Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
[3] Cleric Wisdom I
[3] Cleric Divine Cleansing I
[4] Cleric Prayer of Life I
[4] Cleric Divine Healing I
[5] Cleric Heal II
[5] Cleric Life Magic II
[5] Cleric Charisma I
[5] Cleric Extra Turning I
[6] Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
[6] Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
[6] Cleric Improved Turning I
[7] Cleric Radiant Servant I*
[8] Positive Energy Aura*
[8] Cleric Divine Healing II
[9] Cleric Prayer of Life II
[9] Cleric Life Magic III
[10] Unyielding Sovereignty
[11] Cleric Charisma II
[13] Cleric Radiant Servant II*
[13] Positive Energy Burst*
[14] Cleric Wisdom II
[16] Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
[16] Cleric Wisdom III
[17] Cleric Life Magic IV
[18] Cleric Divine Healing III
[19] Cleric Prayer of Life III
[20] Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life III
[20] Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
*Not implemented yet as far as I know, but the descriptions were out, so I threw 'em in.
-----------------------------

Again, my first build, and maybe I'm showing my inexperience by missing some fundamental flaw that would totally wreck this build. If I am, it's cool, please educate me! Last thoughts: I had originally tried to balance between disable, search, open lock; but thought it might be better to go with concentration / diplomacy, so that I could concentrate on staying alive and out of the fight to keep people alive, while dealing with traps when needed (as traps are what really kill people... and not doors so much).

Eagerly awaiting constructive feedback. Thanks!

Kierkan

[r3dl4nce]

INT 16 too high (14 no more) CON 10 too low (you will die often) CHA 16 for WHAT? All level up in WIS.
A better starting stat could be CON 16, INT 14, WIS 18 +5 level up

Enhancements: Take only ONE toughness, tanke Quicken at 15 or 18
Divine Cleansing and Divine Healing are useless after level 12

Instead of a single rogue level, you could take 2 rogue levels and have Evasion, if you'd like you could even go for battle cleric route

[Talon_Oakenleaf]

First off your charisma is way to high for a cleric, its only used for divine vitality and turn undead which really are a very small part of the game. Strength is way to low, you will never be able to do any damage melee and you will need to do some it's inevitable. You need your Dexterity for your skills and you will definitely need higher Con for the HP you will need to stay alive.

If you are stuck on rogue then take your first level of rogue at level 1 for the insane number of skill points. To be honest with you IMO you will need to take more than one level of rogue to get any of the benefits from it. Level 2 you get evasion which will help. You need 17 levels of cleric to get mass heal so keep that in mind as well. With your skill point allocation as you have it you should be able to disable most traps but you will never spot them. If your toon is going to be used for groups than you really will not be disabling to many traps. You should also spend most of your points from cleric in concentration and balance. You cannot cast when you are lying on your back.

For feats, taking extend so late will not really benefit you, take it earlier. Also you might want to consider quicken, it allows for uninterupted casting and is needed for mass heal as it is painfully slow.

Its a start for your build and in reality it needs to be worked on sorry. Mine evolved a number of times before I got it where I liked it so good luck.

[eden2760]

Thanks for the replies guys. I haven't even built a character to start with this yet. I'll definitely tweak out the main stats as you suggested.


Enhancements: Take only ONE toughness, tanke Quicken at 15 or 18
Divine Cleansing and Divine Healing are useless after level 12
Should I even bother to take them then, you think?


...Its a start for your build and in reality it needs to be worked on sorry. Mine evolved a number of times before I got it where I liked it so good luck. I can live with that. I definitely needed the feedback.

After hearing even just a couple of replies and talking to a few other people, it really seems like the general consensus is that rogue / cleric isn't the best mix. I'd definitely like to be a cleric, focused on healing / support, and my thinking was: extra support via dealing with traps. Reason being is that it seems like it requires a bit of extra attention to detail when compared to dealing as much in-your-face damage as possible. I think I'd enjoy that a bit more, and maybe have a knack for it.

So I have to ask: As stated, this is my first build, and am starting to feel that I may have went in the WAY wrong direction here -- is there really any scenario where mutliclassing (up to 3 levels) in a cleric would be beneficial when compared to the tradeoff of the highest level cleric spells (like divine intervention)?

If not, do all healbot clerics play the same way (if you've seen one you've seen them all)? Not that I have to be 'special', but always looking to be innovative as much as possible, too. My biggest concern is trying to find out what class(es) / styles I would find most entertaining and be best at. I've got my monk up to lvl 10 and have really enjoyed it (went with a bit of an altered Rockan Robin build).

Thanks again for the feedback though... looking forward to learning as much as I can, even if it comes as hard knocks :p

Kierkan

[Vynnt]

1. you are making up your low con by having 3 toughnesses. this is okay, i guess, but you are missing out on some quality metamagics like maximize, quicken.

2. take extend much earlier, it helps early in the game when your spells dont last long, end game, not so much (except for blade barrier).

3. splashing into casters generally isnt a good idea. if you do splash, you need to make sure it meshes well, like wiz/rog or in your case possibly 2 monk

[Doganpc]

You may want to consider 2 Rogue or 2 Monk. Since you're already missing out on the Cleric's level 20 abilities you might as well gain evasion instead.

Dogan
Unprofessional.

[voodoogroves]

New-ish player so take advice with grain of salt. I too have looked at things like this...

(1) consider dropping INT to 14. You're not going to keep all 3 rogue skills + concentration up even as a human w/ a 16 - you'd need an 18 and you're not going to do that. Better off simply letting one lag. Another option is to take the 16 but put less points in search and rely on find traps.

(2) Rogue skill boost and rogue disable/open/search enhancements will prove useful if you mean to actually do roguery. Beyond keeping your items absolutely current, you won't be able to reliably hit hard/elite in higher level content. If you're only trying to do rogue in casual/normal then that's a different situation.

(3) Don't be afraid to PLAN on using the Lockania feat-retrain and at least one enhancement respec. Sure, start w/ an extra Toughess, but plan to swap it out for something else later, etc. Have Divine Healing at lower levels, but plan on respecing all of your enhacements around 8 or so.

(4) Cleric 20 works. So does x3/Cleric17 or any mix in between. Consider when to dip though as you'll find the abilities you delay are the most painful. If you're playing an x1/cleric19 that'll work out fine at 20 ... but pay attention to what spells you'll be missing and when.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

So I have to ask: As stated, this is my first build, and am starting to feel that I may have went in the WAY wrong direction here -- is there really any scenario where mutliclassing (up to 3 levels) in a cleric would be beneficial when compared to the tradeoff of the highest level cleric spells (like divine intervention)?

If not, do all healbot clerics play the same way

My strong recommendation is go pure with your first cleric.

If you also like to melee, 2 monk gives you evasion, some combat options, and I believe a wisdom boost.

2 rogue gives you those traps plus evasion.

But once again, I highly recommend pure on the first cleric build.

As for 'healbot', most clerics will suggest you never think of yourself that way. If you have 18 WIS, 14 CON, rest into STR, you will create an effective caster cleric who can both heal/buff and cast offensive & CC spells. Sometimes the best defense is a good Greater Command, Blade Barrier, or Implosion ("proactive healing", dead stuff can't hurt your party)

The two biggest changes between PnP D&D and DDO are... are DM is loot crazed... and this is a much more min/maxed game so a lot of what is nice is PnP doesn't play out as well past L12ish here.